Redundant Air Supply - Scuba Tech Tips: S04E10
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ต.ค. 2016
- Safe divers regularly check their air supply and surface before it gets low. However, if you want the extra safety of a fully redundant air supply, Alec shows popular redundant air options along with the pros and cons of each.
**** Alec Peirce Scuba ****
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Thunderf00t brought me here.
Edit: i don´t even swim but its interesting!
Brought me here too, and I'm amazed. Amazed at how people moan about maintenance costs and cost of equipment for something that you require to live. No money issues when you're dead.
The cost of servicing scuba gear is amazingly cheap when compared to other service costs.
I just had my brakes done on a 10 year-old F150. It cost $1500. More than 1/2 o that was labor.
I've done many brake jobs over the years and it might take a competent mechanic 2 hours to do all 4 brakes. They just replace the rotors and pads, clean and lube. The hardest part is taking off the wheels.
So $100 plus parts ($50) is pretty cheap every 2 years or so.
Take care.
Alec
Thumderf00t brought me here, and I’m so glad. I’m not a SCUBA diver, but you’re so entertaining to watch and so informative, it’s a bit like watching a documentary. Also, even though I know absolutely nothing, there was no point in this video where I was confused or didn’t know what you were talking about, that shows what a great teacher you are.
I don't dive.
I can't swim.
I hate the water.
But damn if I'm not sold on that pony tank.
Well thanks Lee.
I suppose that's the ultimate compliment for a speaker, when the audience has no idea what he's talking about but they enjoy it anyway.
Wow!
Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba you really do have a gift, you should be so proud of yourself! Keep up the great work!
Alec Peirce Scuba I should also say, that at no point did I feel like you were ‘dumbing anything down’ or anything like that, you just explain things really really well, and in an entertaining way too, I chuckled along a few times watching this. I would imagine that whether you know a lot about SCUBA or like me you know nothing, you’d come away from this video knowing more than you did at the start.
I aim to achieve 2 things from my videos - knowledge and entertainment. I'm not sure which is more important to me.
So, if you learned something and if you laughed, you've made me a happy man.
Thanks.
Alec
I like this old coot, he's the right amount of funny and condescending.
I kinda' like this old coot too.
Thanks.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Dude, you are a riot. Keep being awesome!
When it comes to all things in life “Old Coots” can show you the way......thank God for those with experience and willingness to show the way! Thank you Alec Peirce
ThunderfOOt brought me here. I like the way you explain this stuff, down to earth and with experience. I just noticed the license plate-the Aqua Lung, that's pretty funny.
Thanks for watching Charles.
I hope you enjoy our channel and it helps you be a better diver too.
Alec
Hi Alec, great video. I have been diving with pony bottles over 10 years. Just a few items to mention. I don't do back mount pony anymore as it tips you to the side. If you clip it to your front and bungie it like a sidemount, you are far more balanced. On back mount I have sometimes forgot to turn tank on. The back mount clamp you show was the best I had used, but the rubber parts came off and the strap did not like big pony bottles. There is a nice way to streamline the hose/second stage as well as have it bungeed to your side nicely, but this is all in an online course at sidemounting.com which I really liked encourage all to view. I sidemount dive more now as many dive shops do not rent pony bottles and tanking one with you is a pain if you fly as it has to be depressurized and weighs a lot in a suitcase. I encourage people to have a pony as 1) who knows how reliable your dive buddy is, 2) my first dive (rental gear) I had a hose rupture, I also had 3 free flows (one due to first stage issues, 2 to second stage). Fortunately I did not need a pony in those cases but these are the reasons I always carry one on dives now.
Thumderf00t brought you quite some traffic whilst debunking scamcl. Have a lovely day.
I will return the favor.
Clearly a man of good taste.
Aec
I don't even scuba dive but subscribed for this dude's personality !
I aim to educate and/or amuse.
Looks like it's working.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
That this channel doesn't have 1M subs is criminal.
That would be nice but I'm happy to educate and entertain my diver viewers.
A
@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Well you're saving lives. Scuba is still very much the wild west. I definitely appreciate ya.
I love how he educates in his videos. He adds humor to it. He says in the case u MESS UP DUMMIE. Lmao. On the screen flash at you.. Dummie dummie dummie go up stupid, go up stupid. Lmao. I am dying
Found you from the ThunderFoot episode on Scorkl where he used clips of this video to demonstrate the absurdity of their product.
I've only ever had a passing, vague interest in snorkling but after learning about some of the complexities involved in it from this video I started watching a lot of your other videos and now I'm absolutely fascinated by it. I don't know if I will ever take the plunge (being as I am a coward and I get painful sunburns easier and quicker than newborn albino babies) but either way I'm grateful for your videos. I reckon this video in particular has probably saved lives. Great work. From an Aussie. Oh and you remind me a bit of Johnny Carson, your voice and intonation mainly.
Wow! Good to hear from you.
I was a big fan of Johnny too so that's a compliment.
I'd like to talk to you privately if you can contact me at seahunter@vintagescuba.com .
Take care.
Alec
This guy has a little bit of Walter White ( without the Meth chemistry ) and "Red" Foreman in him . I like that !
Thanks Airon.
The many subscribers/viewers that I've met soon realize that it's just me, just the way I am.
I'm too old to change now so I'm glad you like it.
Take care.
Alec
Thunderf00t
brought me here
He's obviously a good friend.
Alec
Same lol
LOL, Spare Air just makes sure you run out air twice on the same dive! I sling a 30cf bailout when I dive a single, not because I'm worried about running out, but in case of equipment failure.
I thought an octopus hose was for in case an octopus swims by and wants a little air. ;)
Could be I suppose. Ever tried it?
Alec
It`s not just for running out of air it`s also for regulator failure. That`s why I`ve got one.
Hey, if you feel better, go for it.
Running out of air is invariably the diver's fault.
Regulator failure is virtually non-existent (I'm assuming you have your own and get it serviced).
But I would never suggest a diver not use back-ups if he wants to.
Take care Katelyn.
Alec
not everyone is necessary on top of their service or want the yearly expense/hassle (you can get new regs every couple years for less than an annual service) or you may rent stuff that might be questionable, so having a compact backup for travel might make sense.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter.. Perfect for cold whether diving... when your regulator freezes.. for ice diving think i use a dekomp bottle little more volume.. Enjoy your channel and your expertise... Greetings from Sweden....
@@kennethmikaelsson7990 , when you go ice diving the reg will freeze on the surface when the first stage is out of the water. Once you`re under it`s fine. Like Alec said regulator failure is very, very rare. Use your octopus reg and ascend, in case the hose pops ore the membrane of the second stage falls out (yes it happens, I have seen it first hand)! If one is aware of his gauge and you do an annual service to your kit, backups are really not needed for recreational scuba diving.
Don't most divers have two regulators ? Not that someone would remember the extra regulator in a panic . My last dive I panicked a little when I got caught in fishing net my instructor had to cut me out . Oddly I haven't been diving since . Not for getting tangled in fishing net but for not having time , money , and expired license .
Hey Alec, I started using 13 CF pony bottles over 20 years ago, when cave diving in Ginnie Springs, and I got disoriented and started climbing toward the roof of the cave, w/o realizing it, and my Calypso VI, that has a solid yoke, kit the roof of the cave, with such a force, that I tough I was going out like a rocket. Luckily, my Calypso VI held like a champ, and nothing happened, but I learned to use the pony, since you never know, that a hose, HP seat, O-Ring my fail, specially diving at 130' here in Boynton Beach, Florida or cave diving in Silver or Ginnie Springs. Cheap insurance, I call it. Thanks for your great videos.
I Dove at Night for Flounder for Yrs. I have 13 Qubic Ft Pony Redundant Supply for I have Dove at Night Alone in 55' & 70 ft & 122 ft deep alone. But the Night I Ran Out of Air I didn't have it On Me.
I was 105 ft deep & 20-25 ft back under Liberty Ship Edwards.
If my Dive Bud had not seen me Bolt for the Surface & Caught me at 70 FT as I had stopped kicking & could only focus on pulling gas from my Reg I wouldn't be telling my story. 13 Qubic Ft Pony is not really enough I believe 19 should be minimum. Because when you PANIC you can't control your Breathing... I have many years Experience Commercial Fishing Diving ECT ECT.
I can tell you about Running out at 105 under The Edwards
Whent Right back Next Night
Most experienced divers have horror stories.
It's an indication of how safe scuba diving is that they get to re-tell those stories.
Whether they do or not is a personal choice. I don't.
I do agree that, if you're going to use a pony, you might as well make it worthwhile and I like 19 cf tanks for that purpose.
take care.
Alec
Came across this topic while doing the self reliant course and chose sidemount as the best redundant air supply system for me.
Sidemount is doubtless the best set-up for redundant air - if you've been trained to use it!!
Of course, that much redundant air is for specific dives. I get a kick out of watching divers struggle to gear up and enter with a sidemount before a 25' dive on a warm reef. Ah well. Good practice I suppose.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter how do you feel about freediving as a part of scuba self-reliant training?
I mean 25 feet / 10 meters is like a joke for acsend - just 3 kicks of fans (without a gear).
The day after I got certified 10 years ago I purchased a 19. I now own a 30 as well. 0-60 I backmount a 19. 60+ I backmount the 30. Never looked back. I feel naked without it. And I have never dove without one. Every dive. Every time. Take control of your own safety. Nice video Alec. Also check out the Pony Bracket as a mounting system. I have used all of the ones on the market and it keeps the pony closer to the main tank. Thanks Alec for this video. Hopefully more divers start using them.
I don't think these are just for running out of air from being stupid. There are for equipment failures. I had a high pressure hose blow on me once. I lost about a 1/3 of my air before I realized what happened. I would never trust my life to a dive buddy, especially since most of the time it is someone you just meet on the boat. I want to be able to take care of myself.
I personally carry a 30 tank, and I carry it in the front instead of on my tank. I'm moving to doubles soon, so I won't need it after that.
Redundant air systems have multiple purposes like the ones you mentioned. Some like the 'no buddy' dependancy, others do higher risk diving like caves/caverns. There are as many options for these systems as for regular tanks and regs. Pick the one that works best for your diving.
I'm not even interested in diving, but I really love the way you talk. It's so interesting to listen.
Lmao
If you're in cold water, inside a wreck at that depth and you're someone prone to "running out of air", you'd be well advised to either give up diving, or run twins.
YOU'RE SO ENTERTAINING AND INFORMATIVE.
Could you send that comment again please. - in Caps and underlined in Red.
Sometimes my kids read this stuff.
Thanks.
Alec
Was brought here from this video by Thunderf00t: th-cam.com/video/pZYWO0ylFoQ/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the info, man.
Hope you enjoyed it.
Alec
Alec. Thank you for your videos. They are very informative and being new to scuba diving, have helped out a lot.
I was just going thru withdrawals and now I'm good for the rest of the week. Awesome video on phone bottles. Thanks Alec. Montana Mike.
Carry a completely redundant, air supply system, just in case there may be buddy separation; when diving in low visibility, when diving in a current or when diving deep (below 100 ft.). When solo diving or technical diving, carrying a redundant air supply system is mandatory.
On a dive down to 60 ft. - you could carry, “Spare Air.”
On a dive down to 100 ft. - carry a 19 cu. ft. bottle.
On a dive between 100 ft. - 130 ft. - carry a 30 cu. ft. bottle.
On a technical dive, below 130 ft. - carry at least a 40 cu. ft. bottle. Careful planning and air consumption calculations are needed for these types of dives.
Always set a, “minimum ascent pressure.” The pressure gauge point at which “bottom time” ends and “ascent time” begins.
Leave 60 ft. - and start heading to the surface when you’re at 800 psi.
Leave 100 ft. - and start heading to the surface when you’re at 1,200 psi.
Leave 130 ft. - and start heading to the surface when you’re at 1,600 psi.
Agreed. Also where does the idea that a Spare Air will last two minutes at 100ft come from? Now I'm going to work this in metric if no one minds. The Spare Air shown carries 85 liters at 200 bar. Lets start with a common breathing rate of 15l per minute at the surface. Brilliant the Spare Air will last you just over 5 1/2 minutes lying on a lido catching a tan. However sink the lido and at 30m that's cut down to 85 seconds.. If you're calm. But you're not calm because your out of air and the surface is 30m away. So...your consumption shoots up. It can readily more than quadruple and suddenly that 85 seconds is closer to twenty or less.
In fact I recommend reading the article at www.ukdiving.co.uk/technical/articles/alternative_air.htm, I quote "Although claims of up to 48 breaths on the surface are made, we found our testers got between 17 and 32. An ascent begun at 40m emptied the cylinder by the time 30m was reached. It provided just five breaths. However, we were surprised at how well the unit breathed at depth. " So yes they breathe well but would you want to rely on one. Not me for sure.
SomaliCoastguard -- I agree 100%. The Spare Air system is too small to be practical for anything but shallow diving. In fact, unless I'm mistaken it originally wasn't intended for diving at all, but as an emergency egress aid for downed aircraft that had hit water.
@@seikibrian8641 correct the initial development of it was aimed at helicopter crew they could just have it in a thigh pocket of their flight suit and in the event of going down over the water they didn't need to hold their breath to get out of the helicopter which would frequently role upside down in the meantime. Personally have never even considered one for diving. Though most of the time I dive twins now and frequently carry a full stage bottle as well so dont need anything more.
Fantastic review and information as usual Mr Peirce! Much respect!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Love what you talk about Alec
Thanks Dean. Lots more interesting topics coming.
Alec
Excellent video, Alec. Thanks for sharing!
I hope it gave you some useful info Mike.
Thanks for watching. Alec
I was getting so many recommended videos I figured I was subscribed.
Subscriber
thanks for this video, Alec. This answers any residual questions I had about these setups.
You are the first channel I have ever subscribed to "and" actually hit notify me with each new video. Thank you for the great videos and explaining everything so well.
That's a real compliment Josh. I hope you're learning something or at least that I'm making you think.
Take care.
Alec
"This is for you, dummy" I almost spit out my coffee.
Ha sorry Dan.
Thanks again Alec, for sharing all your knowledge, experience and wisdom in an entertaining and very informative clip
Thanks for watching Malcolm.
I hope you're enjoying my vids and maybe picking up some ideas too.
Alec
Alec, GREAT videos - Thank you. A few years back, I started diving with a redundant 19CF pony... now a days I try not to dive deeper than 60FT without it - personal preference. Again great info - keep them coming.
Thanks for watching Ignacio. Alec
Well done! Thank you for this video! And thank you for all of the great knowledge you share!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you Alec.... excellent info as always
Thanks. Alec
Lol, I find it funny that you laugh when you say "you ran out of air." love your videos! Great tutorials!
Glad you like the humor. There's no point getting all depressed about it. Sometimes a good laugh about something important helps you to remember it.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Thanks for the great video, it was very helpful!
Thanks for watching.
Alec
thanks Alex for sharing more of your experience n wisdom
More to come!
In my early days when i was doing a lot of SCUBA diving mostly wrecks, i always used a double 10 l with AGA mask, a 4 l pony and a extra mask in the vest . It was attached with a slipknot and Velcro and could be given to a buddy in one move . Thinking back now after 25 years and 5000-6000 commercial dives i still find it a good system, and would use the same today if i went SCUBA, but i prefer my surface air and the hot water;). Thx for the video, it should be illegal to sell that crab . Many young divers have big egos , that and bad fast SCUBA schools like PADI and so are together with panic the worse killers , we dont need more of them. Take care down there and remember the most life and beauty is at the first 10-15 m. ;)
my favourite scuba channel on youtube❤👌
Thanks very much Asger. Lots more to share.
Alec
Great information Alec. This coming weekend I'm going to be looking for a redundant air supply for wreck diving.
Wreck and deep diving are probably the only good reasons to go to the expense and trouble of setting up a redundant air supply.
75% of divers simply don't need it - assuming they follow good diving rules!!!
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Awesome tips 👏
Thanks for watching.
Alec
I don't dive but you're a good man. These videos and good and honest
Well thanks but, why aren't you a diver? It's safe and a lot of fun.
Alec
Awesome video Alex! Thanks for sharing with us! Jeff Toy
You bet Jeff.
While diving in 6 knots of muddy current, a SAR friend of mine didn't realize that his octo had been free flowing because of the large current pressure held the reg open. he was out of air in a very short time. Thanks for the videos! You are a great resource!
Thats an interesting story. Thanks for sharing and glad you picked up something new sir.
2 common misconceptions regarding spare airs:
1) 1-2 minutes of air is what you might have at 100ft (lets use 1 minute as you describe someone panick-breathing.) You won't be staying at 100ft. You will be ascending. As you ascend you will be pulling lower volumes of air the higher you are in the water column. Meaning you will get more than 1 minute of air, and should be enough for a safd emergency ascent.
2) more importantly, that is not the proper use of a spare air. The most effective way of using a spare air is to take a full breath, then slowly bubble it all out as you ascend (like an emergency swimmer ascent) until you have to take another full breath of air. Using this method you can get much, much more time out of 3 cubic feet. Enough to make a safety stop from a 100ft ascent.
All valid points except missing the panic factor that sucks air much faster than a calm, under control experienced diver may breath. Still each diver needs to take their safety into account with redundant systems and regular test them to be sure its 100% working. You may only need it once in 1,000 dives but if it or you screw up, may be the last dive. Thanks for the feedback Cole.
@Cole Lawton 100 feet you need 3-5 minutes safety stop. Unless if you like getting DCS and risk of death. Your argument is invalid.
@@zakaria600 I dont know who certified you sir but that is not correct protocol. In an out of air scenario, you do not do any safety stops.
If you are within No Decompression Limits then you are not going to get Decompression Sickness ("statistically" possible but astronomically improbable.) Divers do a safety stop in order to add extra precaution and be especially safe because there is no reason not to be extra safe if you have the time for a safety stop.
6cu ft aren’t even that much bigger and they double that. Use up 3cuft in a panic and then 3cuft to do what you just said.
Brought here by Thunderf00t's "Scorkl: busted"
His was a good video, hope this was interesting also.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter yours is more interesting as you talk from experience. As others try to get clicks.
Same here. I didn't think Thunderf00t gave proper credit. Took me a lot of effort to find it. I love this guy though, I can't imagine having 100 feet of water above me, but nice to hear a bona fide expert explain some of the nuances of diving.
Great presentation!!!
Glad you liked it!
A
When I made the decision to invest in a 19CF Pony it was not ever for a thought of "what if I run out of air". If that was the only scenario to be worried about I would not have bought the RAS. I never have come close to running out of air 'unintentionally'. However, there are other scenarios. I have personally seen a Cressi First stage "blow up". I have seen a LP hose, albeit on rental equipment, catastrophically fail. I am often the one to tie off the boat on a wreck, so I have to be self reliant. This is cheap insurance for those occasions when I can't count on a buddy to be there.
I'm a very recent diver and in my short stint so far with the sport I've had already a first stage "blow up" and enter an unstoppable free flow and since all the air is flowing out of it no air reaches the octopus, luckily I was only 3-5m below the surface and was able to ascend safely but stuff like that does happen. I've recently taken the sidemount course and I'll most likely become a sidemount diver exclusively because of that, sure the steamline u get from it is great and the modularity etc etc but for me personally the redundancy is what I value the most. PS: I actually always finished my dives with more air than my buddy, running out of air wasn't at all a problem for me.
I really, really like Alec's videos. I always am surprised by how entertaining, yet informative his videos are. I never would have thought that I would be watching his videos on lunch breaks and in lieu of the standard fare that is on Netflix at night after work. Really appreciate all that goes into your videos (yes, the humor included too) especially with Kevin's help. You guys have created such an amazing resource that will live on probably longer than us all! Alec you have a really great way of explaining things and communicating points across. Really appreciate the application of real-world scenarios too in your examples. Can't wait to see all the other vids.
Thank you very much Ary. We do this for fun and education without ads, or anything other distractions. Hope you and the lunch room gang learn something each video.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter You're welcome Alec. I noticed no ads as well! Very benevolent of you both. Thanks again!
love your video's and I love sea hunt
But wouldn't a redundant air system be a good backup for some type of equipment malfunction if a person is solo diving or if their buddy is out of reach? I would be more worried about either of those scenarios than simply me "messing up" by running out of air because I wasn't paying attention. I've been thinking about adding a pony bottle system, but I really don't see anyone in my dive circles using them. Why are they not more commonly used? They seem like a really wise idea as long as they are ONLY used in an emergency and not relied upon as part of a dive plan.
Solo diving requires more training and gear that buddy but a redundant air supply is something anyone who wants one can use. Simple, not expensive and reliable (key point) and for emergencies only is totally true. I dove with many who carried a SpareAir system and several with pony's like this, its what makes you comfortable. If you were paired up with a stranger 500 miles from shore, better trust them to be nearby or carry your own piece of mind like these.
A.
Don’t know about other groups in the uk. But my club call these bailout bottles. Great video as always!
Yep. Bailout bottles is what they're called over 'ome.
We tote them in the boot with the rest of our kit.
Didn't know I was British did you??
Take care.
Alec
In commercial/military diving, a "bailout bottle" is what one shifts to if one needs to disconnect from the surface air supply. See, for example: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/US_Navy_060329-F-3759D-001_U.S._Navy_divers_assigned_to_the_rescue_and_salvage_ship_USS_Safeguard_(ARS_50)_prepare_to_dive.jpg
Alex thank you for clearing up the amount of air it takes to get to the surface from a certain size tank. I always wondered. I carried a 19 as a redundant air supply for years and (thank goodness) I never used it....finally sold it. Your tech tip are so great.....you help make better informed and safer divers. Thank you!
Your very welcome Steve. Glad you could benefit from them.
A thought… I think it’s important to remember that running out of air by a diver’s mismanagement at depth is not the only reason you would want to have something like this. If you had a catastrophic failure of your regulator, such as a seal leaking in your first stage, just wasting air, running your tank dry, then a redundant air supply would be vital for your survival. Mechanical systems can and do fail.
Great video and explanation of the size of a pony that you really would need.
Thank you very much.
A
Hey Alec, your videos are awesome I really appreciate the extra time you put in to explain things so well! It's really helping me through my divemaster training. I was wondering if you could do a video on guesstimating how much weight to give a diver and how different gear (wetsuite thicknesses) etc effects it. Thanks a lot for the videos!
This is a very interesting segment I would like to see something on breathing techniques to help dive longer. I know there is no gear involved but it would be very beneficial to every diver.
Best advice slow down... it is not a race. Oh and I was told a pair of running shoes was the best scuba gear to increase dive time a long time ago. It is true. Get out and walk/run above water equals more air under water. Ha.
Great review! I didn't even know such systems as Spare Air existed (I knew about pony bottles). For true redundancy, I would personally prefer side-mount setup though :)
Hi Alec, still loving all your videos. Great advice as usual.
I've been diving in the UK for over 15 years, always in a dry suit and always with a twin set. I use 2 x 12l (sorry we're metric over here) I think they are your 80's. One cylinder can inflate my drysuit, the other my bcd therefore I've got redundancy. I always leave at least 50bar (700 psi) in the empty one which my buddy could use to get safely to the surface. Normally I get back on the boat with 100 - 150 bar over the 2 cylinders. I do not have an octopus or safe 2nd, I just have 1 reg, SPG and inflator from each cylinder. If I do light weight diving, I'll either keep with the 12's and not have to mess about swapping cylinders between dives or use twin 7's. Same setup but with more gas and safety then a single 12.
Keep safe.
An interesting setup but not having a safe 2nd makes your reg a fail point. Maybe not a concern in warm water but as a Brit in the lovely chilly waters of the UK, a freeze up is possible. If you buddy is well versed in your gear setup and safety procedures, have fun and dive safe. Can you dive in the UK now?
I've learned to sidemount this summer. Mostly for less weight on the spine, due to a back injury, but the better balance and trim as well as a fully redundant air supply have turned out great. Would love to see a video on that subject sometime.
We'll see. Sidemount has its uses but not for the vast majority of recreational divers.
Take care.
Alec
Ok...thx for your response alex..
Welcome Michael.
Alec,
Thank you for the thought provoking content.
If I were to buy one, I’d go with the larger pony system for deeper dives. Your BCD is worthless in true out of air situations. Ascending without the assistance of your BCD is pretty strenuous. You could drop your rig, but most people would panic and bolt for the surface knowing they only have a couple breathes more and they are 100’ plus down. I like to think I wouldn’t panic, but until you’re in that situation you’ll never know. One of the few things I actually remember from first ow dive course was that you can never check that SPG to much!
Monitoring air is a key teaching point in today's O/W course and for good reason. It's amazing to me that divers still run low/out of air today. Some dive computers will actually sound an alarm at a pre-set pressure but still divers ignore or think its some else. Thanks for watching and the feedback.
Yes, this is perfect for people that don’t check their air. I was thinking of having one of these systems because I have a friend that was diving in Cozumel with a brand new regulator and it stopped working at 60’. Come to find out his problem obviously wasn’t him, it was a dirty tank. His regulator got plugged up with aluminum dust from tanks not properly maintained by the company we were diving with. Also, this would be a great redundant back up not because of stupidity, but because man made mechanical devises will break at the worst times. Hence, be self reliant, and don’t be in the habit on depending on others (like most people are). As a aviator I believe in redundancy. Airplanes are built with many redundancies for the same purposes as we need under the water. Thanks for the great info Alec.
While not a big fan of redundant air supplies generally (I believe in NOT running out of air!), I have used them and will do again when their need is apparent.
Years ago I used to dive alone a lot (they call it 'solo diving' now - back then it was just alone) and often to some depths (100'+). I always had an extra tank with regulator. I'm not sure what the tekkies call that system but essentially I wore twin 72's with a regulator on each. When the first tank got down to 1000psi, I checked to be sure the second tank and reg was ready and working. At 500psi I switched and headed for the surface. It might not have been the best system but, I'm still here.
Take care.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter "I'm not sure what the tekkies call that system but essentially I wore twin 72's with a regulator on each."
I'd call that a "Hogarthian rig" or "Hogarthian configuration," named for cave diving pioneer William Hogarth Main, although there are other aspects besides twin tanks and twin regulators in a true Hogarthian setup.
Hi Alec,
Great video I am glad you are introducing people to so many different technical items that most dive shops don't even know exist, or worse don't make enough money on them so they don't bother.
On pony bottles I think it is important to realise 2 things:
1) Not everyone is a SCUBA diver, for us SSBA folk a Pony bottle is the only defence to a bad dive tender running over my air hose or worse yet a Crocodile or whale fetching on the air hose and surface dragging me from 40m where only option is to cut my surface fed air and engage the Self Contained unit.
1a) That being said I stopped using a pony bottle a few years back because of the bulk and realistically with the predictability of depth and tasks I am doing I know I am always in range for a screaming ascent because turning the dan pony bottle on underwater when its back mounted is not easy, and if you stuff it up you now don't have enough air to do the screaming ascent. Leaving it on all the time is not an option because we are under for 8+ hours a day for a month and the purge gets bumped here and there and now its empty...
2) A lot of dive shops here in Australia where we do a lot of SSBA for commercial harvesting (the Barrier Reef is allergic to dredges) the dive shops figured if they buy all the components the can make more money on each pony bottle buy assembling them themselves... Problem is a scary number of them are using Aluminium tanks and plastic or stainless frames with stainless bands to secure them. This causes galvanic corrosion very quickly and after a few years my pony bottle could not be filled because it wouldn't pass inspection it was so pitted. It was the only time in my life I was so irate at someone,. Had anything happened to me it would have been criminal negligence. Please keep an eye out for this.
Thank you again so much for taking the time to make these videos we are watching and learning thanks to you.
- Erick
Thanks for watching Erick. Alec
Eventually, life is priceless
But, the usefulness of spare air is that in an event your buddy are out of hand reach, you could use it as temporary solution to get to your buddy safe second
I don't dive but watching you was fun.
Thanks Crisdan. Hope you learned something and laughed
I dive with a 40 for redundancy for solo diving if I don’t want to go full sidemount. It made more sense for me to use a 40 as I’m also starting technical training and the 40 tends to be the size they use for staging or gas switching. A 40 isn’t bad to carry, takes some practice for the clipping and getting it streamlined but I’d rather have as much air as possible in an emergency situation.
For most, you’re right a 19 simply strapped to the primary cylinder is gold. Good vid.
Thank you for the feedback and appreciate your comments.
A
Thanks for the good video. I've got a 6cuft pony for when I go solo diving. I bungee its reg to the bottle, house it in a mesh holder with clips and sling it out of the way on my right side. Now thinking of going to maybe a 13cuft.
6 is a bit small. It would give you enough air that you'd have time to realize you screwed up and were going to die!
Try at least 13.
Take care.
Alec
I love watching your videos even though I do not dive.
Thanks. Tell me what else you don't do and I'll make some new videos for you!
Alec
I really liked your tips on how to pack your bag efficiently for air travel. I will do it exactly that way.
On a similar topic, please consider sharing tips on how best to move and prepare our gear after driving to a site for shore diving. I'm thinking in terms of how to most easily carry gear from the car to the shore and arrange most efficiently for entering the water.
Thanks,
Pete
I dive sidemount. And i like it to have 2 air tanks who works separately. Sometimes i use it as a stage with my backmount system in the cold water.
My buddys dives with cc systems they carry all her bail-out gasses in stages.
Hi Alec, loved the video. Can you make tech tip on dual tanks, maybe dual with pony. Thank you
Great work Alec - keep it coming. I'd love to hear your thoughts and views on full face integrated masks for recreational divers - pro's con's etc. Cheers
Full face used to be quite common for recreational divers but even as today, they are far from perfect, cost more and require more maintenance. If you need a full face system for some reason, there are a couple good ones available. It's not generally something a recreational diver would use.
Alec
so I picked up a used Spare Air 3cf and got to test it yesterday coming up from 60ft dive - definitely much harder to breath than my reg (expected since you don't ever want free flow - I have mine inverted upside down attached to tank out of the way, easy grab behind). Mouth piece is very small (have same for my small child) which makes it harder to hold, but mouth cover doesn't fit larger regular piece. slightly neg, then positive when empty - make sure to have a leash (comes with it).
I was able to come up slow from 60ft and do half of the optional 3min deco at 15ft - the last breath is SLOW and hard (not all sudden) so you know it's coming... you can easily do the last 15ft on that breath.... mind you this was a controlled ascent and I wasn't panicked, but I also would be coming up a lot faster in an emergency at first at least, instead of breathing at higher depth. So far I'm happy, as I'm often separated from my buddy or dive/finish alone.
the key is not dive as if you have NO redundant air - don't depend on it and hope to never use it. But's it's there tucked away if Murphy's' law happens... I had a first stage internal o-ring blow on me on my old new stock regulator after year of usage or so. Scared me as I was walking into the water - what if it happened at depth ?
When I bought my main cylinders I bought a 19cf pony as well. Have an old MK5 with a 109 that I rebuilt and upgraded to the S-wing poppet. It's a little heavier and all and I sling it on the front, when I am on the surface I turn it on to check and then turn it back off. Even with it off I still get at least a breath but I also don't have to worry about a freeflow burning my redundant source. With it on my chest I can always turn it on if it's needed though.
Sounds like a smart setup and checks. Thanks for sharing John.
I like my 19 CF pony bottle because I have the option of using it as a stage bottle if I want for those longer dives. I always decide before the dive if it is just for emergencies or if I want to use it as part of my usable air. It also is great for making free flows less dangerous.
I don’t know why people get things like spare air for $400 if your a diver like me you can get a pony bottle £200-250 and a reg on eBay for about £100-150
But £400 is more than $400 and other than that I personally don't trust a Site like ebay to have goods in an acceptable condition especially when your life depends on it but that's just me.
I tell you what, redundant air supply is not just in out of air scenario, but useful for lone diving as alternative to twinset (not everyone is capable of reaching manifold valves, unless tanks on your back are up side down:) which means two independent scuba systems. "pony" can be used as side mount configuration in case of main system malfunction. A smart diver always have a plan B, in case of something. This applies to anything you use, including dive computer.
Thanks for reading, safe diving !
Thanks for the feedback my friend.
A.
Thanks Alec very informative. I am looking for a redundant air supply as I have a Power Dive system which is a hose running from a tank down to the diver. They don't supply a gauge to use with their system so you have no idea how much air is left in the tank.Couple of things you didn't mention was that you may have to inflate your BC with the redundant air, reducing the breathable amount and decompression stops.
you can inflate BC by blowing your exhale air through inflator hose - that way you will not waste fresh air, the used one is just good for BC :)
I like, firist time I came across this, the small 3 cu ft . .? Thanks learning a lot
Welcome Hong.
A.
I am 13 years old and I'm going to be a scuba diver
Wow! That's when I started too.
Put your mind to it and go. Don't let anyone discourage you - friends, siblings and especially parents.
They love you and are compelled by nature to protect you but educate them about how safe scuba is - safer than many other sports that they wouldn't worry about - skiing, surfing, motocross, etc. Tell your dad it's safer than being in the car when he's driving. That'll shake him! And it's true.
Good luck. If I can help reach out anytime.
Alec
Hi Alec: thanks for another great video! What ever happened to "J" valves? I used it regularly back in the 70's and thought it was a great idea. For your readers that don't know what that is, it's a reserve lever with a long rod attached to your first stage and when pulled in the down position, can deliver another 600psi of reserve air from your main tank.
Jim - He has some excellent videos that cover many details regarding J valves. I never knew what they were before his videos. They may be under his vintage scuba series where he goes through the history of tank valves. It was very cool to see. They even had an audible function in some regs that would indicate low air and you would then switch to "reserve." Alec covered it all in that episode.
@jim been 40y since I used J valves, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you gage show 600psi whether you pull the rod or not ? you should be looking at your air at all times so you know to go up with you hit that last bit! if you don't look at your air supply (or when I started we didn't have any) then yes a j-valve 'reserve' will save your behind (if rod didn't get pulled by mistake). relying on that reserve and with balanced reg (can't tell until very last breath or so) is asking for trouble...
Great subject.
I just set up a pony last month for deeper solo diving...find pony a minor PIA .
I sure like the set up Alec shows.7 My concern is reg / o ring or other failure at depth...I am very strict re. watching my air supply and it always amazes me people forget to check. !!! I have to say I have never had such a system failure in 4 decades...just being prudent. Will look into XS set up. Links to the products would help. I know its not an endorsement per se just an eye-opener.
I'm reluctant to use links. Some of my suppliers want me to put ads or banners on the playlists but I've said no. Google will find anything you want or anything I hint about.
I like a Pony for dives to 100' or less. More than that and I want doubles with 2 regulators.
Thanks for watching. Alec
A little late to the party, but recently researched this topic. I like the air consumption analysis from "Staying Alive: Risk Management Techniques for Advanced Scuba Diving" in chapter "USING ADDITIONAL REDUNDANCY: the maligned and misunderstood pony bottle". The author works an example that starts with a primary gas failure at 100ft, and assumes a controlled ascent that includes: 1min of air consumption at depth to stop/think/act, a normal ascent rate (30ft/min), and a safety stop. His model also factors in increased air consumption rate due to depth and stress that the diver is likely experiencing. His "worst case" assumptions show a 25 cu-ft air consumption (13 cu-ft without a safety stop). Check out the book for full details on his model.
I think it's worth running personalized calculations similar to the ones in this book before committing to a tank. I found that my calcs resulted in higher air consumption than I originally imagined; they lead me to purchase a larger tank.
Love this channel, Alec!
Planning is important but all of the detailed calculations and assumptions go out the window in an emergency. In my experience (I've had a couple of close calls at depth), a well-trained diver wouldn't need a full minute to prepare for the ascent, the rate of ascent will be closer to 60'/minute (1' per second) and any safety stop will depend on the remaining air.
Having decided to use a pony bottle. my favorite is the 19cf size. It shouldn't take 5 minutes to ascend from 100' and the 19 will do that.
Alec
Spare air should be called the “forgive me” bottle. You get to ask god for forgiveness for your sins before you run out of air TWICE, then pass out. Maybe shoot a quick text or selfie to your loved ones. YES my phone can text under water what if it! ;) no spare are is better than nothing. My thinking is being tangled so bad you have to ditch your whole tank. I’d sure be happy I had that if I was 50 feet down and for whatever reason had to swim up naked.
I like the idea of a 20 pony though. Seems enough to get out of almost any bind. In open water that is. In a wreck or a cave I’d want two full tanks and a pony, and a knife and a mask screw it a gun too! No crazy underwater cave spider is gonna tangle me up or take me out. Shoooooot....
All done :)
Be safe all.
But also live like a rock star!
SpareAir can be a life saver in shallow conditions and cheaper than a typical pony setup (with no annual VIS or hydro testing).
I don't want texts while diving, just to enjoy the moment.
Alec
Alec very good video. I would like to see a vid about the dreaded argon drysuit kit. A lot of debate here mainly between steel or alu and size of bottle, 1.5 L 2L or even the 3L for the argon kit.
Hi Alec love your videos!! It's nice to hear from someone with so much knowledge. I just got certified and I'm so excited to begin my scuba adventures. Could you please share your opinion on intergraded dive masks. They seem perfect because they allow you to talk under water. I think for a new guy like myself this would be a big help. Thx again I really appreciate you making your videos!!
Welcome to an exciting new world Brian. You have so much to look forward to.
Full face masks are pretty neat. They're also pretty expensive. Realize that both you and your buddy will need one.
And, one of the most wonderful things about scuba diving is the peace - no noise, no sirens, no gunshots (don't know where you live), no babies crying, no wives, etc. I love it!!
Of course I'm kidding - a bit.
The mask are worth looking at but go slow. Enjoy diving for a while first.
Have fun. Alec
Brian Lombardi one other thing to think of is in the case of out of air with Full Face mask to change regulators you need to take off your mask. This is stressful and can find it hard to find the safe second.
On another note... one thing I love about diving is no one can talk to me. No texting, no Dive buddy chatting you up. Just enjoying the peace and quite. I get how it is easier to ask questions and talk to learn. But you can carry a slate and write something down ask question.
In a scuba class I was a dive master on a student broke his brand new mask and it kept flooding. I was able to take my reg out of my mouth and talk into his ear under water. I gave him my mask and he finished the dive (and completed his remove and replace mask underwater skill).
I really appreciate these scuba tips! Infos coming from experience! Your sharing of thoughts is great and welcome.
Taking pony... It is then planned to run out of air, like when taking a "normal" O2 pony for deco :p
Idea, new tech tip: I would need to know a bit more about what you think of different kinds of regulators (compensated or not, balanced or unbalanced, piston or membrane/diaphragm, O2 specific, ...).
No! Using a pony is NOT so you can use up all the air in your main tank. It's there for emergency. Think 'Fire Extinguisher" - you don't use it unless you're in trouble. The other way is playing with fire (pardon the silly pun). Alec
Lol I used to do saturation diving, doesn't matter how big of a reserve tank you have, your umbilical gets severed at like 500 feet and they'll be fishing your coprse up on a trebble hook if you are very lucky
Ha very true.
A
Hi Alec. I find it very useful to watch to your tech tips. Could you tell us a little bit about inflator valve failure? And also, if the are DIY ways to repair it. Thanks, Otavio - Brazil.
Hi Alec,
Another great video show! Have you already done a show on scooters/DPVs?
Not yet Russell.
We'll see. There's lots of service/repair stuff that I'd like to do first.
Maybe in Vintage Scuba playlist I'll do a vid on the homemade DPVs that we built in the 70's.
First and foremost, thank you for your time and effort you put into these videos. It is greatly appreciated. QUESTION: In all of your years of diving, how many times have you experienced, or witnessed, a malfunction in a 1st stage where a RAS would have been beneficial with or without a buddy?
Never.
60 years of diving in every environment, 6000+ dives.
The reason is simple. The first stage does not 'malfunction'.
It can freeze or go out of adjustment but that is not a malfunction.
Maybe I'm mincing words here but I think it's important.
However, re RAS, if the dive scenario warrants it, they are a good idea.
And how do you decide? Deep (deeper than 60'), overhead environment (caves, wrecks, ice), solo dives ... you have to decide. Basically, if there is any reason to limit your ability to reach the surface with no air, an RAS is a good idea.
For 80% of scuba dives, it's not a bad idea but certainly not necessary.
Some divers always have an RAS and that is their choice. If it makes them feel more comfortable, go for it.
I have had divers come in with their RAS systems to have them checked and found them to be inoperative - sort of like a spare tire that's flat. In those cases they carried the RAS because it made them feel better - even though it didn't work!!
It's an individual decision other than in the circumstances I've described.
Take care.
Alec
I am just over 200 dives and on one dive I was VERY happy to have a pony. I was taking PADI tec40 course. It is an intro to tec diving and much of the first dive is switching air sources and buddy breathing.
After a dozen air switches my buddy was giving me his pony and was supposed to be turning on the valve. Instead I got one or two breaths then he shut down the tank.
Instructor being observant gave me his primary and I was OK. Found and switched back to my primary tested and purged my primary and I had air. However with so many shutdown drills I had a leak between the 1st stage and tank.
My buddy shut down my primary 1st stage to fix the problem and did not tell me. So I got 1-2 breaths and was out of air the second time in a minute. I knew no one had used my pony/deco (for simulated deco stop) I was able to switch to deco bottle, calm down allow buddy and instructor to let me know what was wrong fix the problem and finish the dive.
During this issue we went from 60 ft to about 40 ft in case I panicked and I was close. Not very often you get multiple out of air surprises in a min.
I take a pony at least 19cf on any dive to 100 ft or more. But then almost every dive I take at least 2 80 cu fit tanks and often a 40cf deco bottle.
I know it is more complicated when doing multiple gas types etc but I am happy to carry a 19cu ft tank. My life is worth $300 and $50 a year in service.
just last summer while traveling my gear first stage o-ring blew up on the beach as I was heading out (not right away when I connected my reg) - thank god it didn't happen underwater. mind you my reg had maybe 40 dives and 1.5 years old, so not totally out of service. Been thinking of RAS, especially since I sometimes dive alone (or get separated) like lobster diving.
Love the videos... the only thing I will say is if you are at 100ft and your out of air, 1 min is huge to find your buddy if they wandered off. It does not need to get you to the surface, just to your next air source.
Every circumstance in different. What works today may not be right tomorrow. That's where experience comes in. But you're certainly right in one regard Chris. Air is vital underwater - you have no idea!!
Take care.
Alec
You may not find your buddy and then you're screwed. Do you really want to be dependant on someone else for your survival? Equip as if you're diving solo, then having a buddy is a nice bonus.
Another possible scenario on the Great Lakes while wreck diving at 120 feet: your first stage freezes, but you are not an idiot. A redundant air supply would be great. Your buddy can turn off the valve on your main cylinder and you can ascend.
The XS Scuba setup is a good price, but the first stage is not environmentally sealed for cold water diving. Should we really use it in the Great Lakes? It seems like it would be an unreliable backup. I know that you are wise, so you must believe it is safe it cold water.
Another great video. You are a real scuba treasure!
An environmentally sealed reg is a good idea but ... it is NOT a guarantee.
Properly prepared, a cheap reg with or AER or not, can be kept from freezing.
And an environmentally protected reg if not cared for, can freeze very quickly.
I have not used the XS Scuba regulators - only their Alt Air Safe Sercvond (octo). I think it's great.
Alec
My local shop wants to put a $1,000 pony set up together for me-with a cold water rated and enviromentally sealed first stage and cold water rated second stage. They say the XS Scuba setup you discuss in the video would be unsafe for for Lake Michigan wreck diving. That setup is warm water only. Alec, what do you mean by “a properly prepared regulator”-one that is well maintained? You said it can be kept from freezing-is that with some type of modification? What is an AER? I trust your wisdom. I realize the guys at the local shop don’t have your 60 years of experience if we combined all their years. Ha! :-) Thanks, Ron
I don't see any issue with a 40 cubic foot pony for redundant air. A quick look at a chart says it's like 0.7 lbs negative in seawater including the valve, so it's not going to impact your trim or buoyancy noticeably. I know some people who strap it to their main tank like the system you show from XS Scuba, but I think just slinging it like you would a stage bottle is the easiest. Of course that's probably harder if you're in a jacket style BCD instead of a backplate and wing setup. But once you have it mounted somehow and are in the water, the extra length of a 40 cubic foot pony isn't really a problem.
Also, I looked into that XS Scuba system a while back, but I don't think I'd be comfortable relying on it for cold water diving. I put the same regulator set on my pony as I use on my main tank.
The good and bad thing about scuba gear is the many options we have to carry a pony. Depending on your training (ie GUI or Hogartian, etc), they each have different setups. As long as its fully functional and accessible, mounting is your preference. Thanks for watching Lee.
Would love to see you go over the options and advantages / disadvantages for Full Face Masks.
Adam to me there are more negatives than positives. To get most of the positives you need two one for you and your buddy. The nice thing is they do not fog up but a couple cents of Defoe fixes that. They are also nice in 40 degree water. Keep your face from going numb.
However, if you need to switch regulators or run out of air you have to take off your mask which is bad in a stressful situation. Also means you need to carry a spare mask.
Oh and there is the price Yeiks.
Hi Alec ,i think a RAS is a good idea,its a kind of feel a little safe factor,but i do wish you would give out metric measurements with your old imperial feet and inches,we in Europe tend to do things in metric and trying to change from feet to metric is sometimes a little confusing