The fascinating thing about this, is the fact the UN has consistently gone against the wishes of the Mayotte population to remain a part of france. So much for supporting self determination.
Eh.... the situation is similar to the Donbas in Ukraine. If you populate an area with colonists, then those colonists vote to remain, does that really count? The answer is no. No it doesn't.
@@jeffmorris5802 that ain't the question in Dombass. The rebels always where Russian funded and where originally indipendentist not pro joining Russia. The Dombass separatist could have rebeled for thousend different reasons if Russia wanted It to be so.
@@jeffmorris5802 But they aren't colonists. At least not 90%. From what I remember, Mayotte used to be the political center of the Comoros under French rule. This meant, that the population had more power and a closer connection to France than the people on the other islands, leading them to reject independence. Donbas is a very different story and it is actually unclear if a majority of the people of the Donbas actually ever supported becoming a part of Russia.
Self-determination is one of UN's values but so is territorial integrity. It's not like any arbitrary region has the right to self-determination just because a majority of the population there want it. A single family can't demand that their house and lot becomes a sovereign country even if they all agree on that. So what kind of regions of populations do have a right to self-determination? Solve that problem decisively and you'll be deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize.
The people of Mayotte have voted routinely to be part of France, so I don't see the argument for transferring them to the poorer and less developed Comoros. It just doesn't make much sense to me. If the people wanted to join the Comoros, they should, but clearly, they dont (Ps I'm irish)
Well, that last bit was a bit of a kicker! :-) But of course Ireland is another very good example of this problem. What happens when you have decolonisation running up against the self-determination of a particular group that wants to stay a part of the colonial state. In this case, it’s a little different as the Mahorais are largely indigenous, rather than French settlers. It’s rather an interesting, and far from straightforward, discussion.
@Prof James Ker-Lindsay true. I'm not particularly pro irish unification as my view is that any unification should see a super majority (60%+). Otherwise, we would see issues in the long run. (Thanks for the heart)
Who is the person who is voting to be part of colonial power French they do this proganda Long time when Djibouti take their freedom they said we want to join Somalia but French they make fake voting and said they said we want to be a country that time French Frist goal was that Djibouti join Ethiopia but in Djibouti they don't want to be under colonial agian
While Northern Ireland and Mayotte decided not to be part of a new nation, Malaysia did expel Singapore, it's richest, most developed territory from the federation in 1960s against the wishes of many Singaporean citizens and politicians then.
Thanks. I actually made a video on that topic th-cam.com/video/8PJ9JTod9X0/w-d-xo.html It was a fascinating, and indeed unique, case in modern international relations.
How exactly did Ireland vote for independence and northern Ireland to remain with the UK? I ask because I don't know. What was the referendum and did it win in every town in Ireland and lose in every town of northern Ireland?
@@FOLIPE Initially the UK government wanted to make the whole of Ireland a "free state" with a home parliament (later independent). This was done due to armed rebellion in Ireland against British rule. However, yes, the majority in *Northern* Ireland at the time were both very pro-UK and very anti-Catholic (Dominant religion of the South). Domestic militias formed to resist any Southern rule. To avert the risk of civil war, the UK kept Northern Ireland, hoping to reunify it again later under a new arrangement. Of course, 100 years later, we're still here! 😂
@@FOLIPE They didn't really. The UK unilaterally partitioned Ireland. Violence and boycotted votes (where half the community didn't participate) kept the status quo, until the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) was finally signed in 1998. This was approved via an all-island referendum, and states that NI is entitled to a further referendum to unify with the South, if it seems likely that a majority would vote in favour. The GFA is the main reason NI still exists today, and is also the tool to decide it's future. It is backed by the UN, EU, Ireland, UK and USA. So if you want a "vote" to point to, that's probably it. 1998.
Thanks. Yes and no. It’s really interesting to read the reactions to this video. As I mentioned, there is a long-standing principle that colonial territories shouldn’t be partitioned. And many people would instinctively condemn France for doing it. But this case perhaps pushes people to think a little bit harder about it all. It isn’t as clearcut as it seems. We often think that there must be some sort of strategic reason for these sorts of partition decisions. But I’m sure France would rather not have this problem at all. In that sense, there are some interesting parallels with Northern Ireland.
@@JamesKerLindsay They'd rather not have this problem as I'd rather have my cake after eating it, but not eat it is not something I would ever consider. All would be done if they had followed the full results of the referendum done in the whole islands back then. Instead here we are now...
@@JamesKerLindsay "yes and no". not to you to say, you are incompetent. saying the partition of islands is the root of poverty in comoros is a blatant lie.
@@JamesKerLindsaybut the question is did france take the whole area as a whole or did france take disparate kingdoms and made into a whole? If they were separate before then the comoros cannot claim territorial integrity when there was no united comoros at the onset.
Thanks, as always, for laying out this topic in such a balanced academic fashion. Awesome content! It seems the people of Mayotte indicated their desire to remain as part of France. Despite international bodies to enforce their concept of a "geographical political construct," the people of Mayotte chose the pathway they wanted to follow & remained part of France. In an effort to maintain the rule of law, France has exercised it sovereign right to territorial integrity by starting to remove migrates who are, in fact, in France illegally. As a political entity, France governs itself as it chooses. Laws are and should be the foundation to an orderly society. Without laws, anarchy results. Despite the unfortunate optics of this situation in Mayotte, France is moving to maintain stability of its society by enforcement of French laws in removing people who, by their own initiative, entered Mayotte illegally. The optics are bad, but if enforcement is not established, a worse situation will develop. Politics is a difficult Art, but France, through its own democratic processes, is attempting to conduct the Art of politics. Thank you again for the outstanding content you provide. Your efforts help to inform & educate such a vast number of people is appreciated. 👍
@@theobanse1494 They weren't a part of France though, so it is about becoming french. And what about Oran and Algiers who didn't want autonomy inside algeria? These ones WERE a part of France. Also why did mainland France vote count in the 1961 referendum but not the vote of other comoro islands in the Mayotte case? At the time Mayotte WAS surely Comoros. The hypocrisy is endless
I don’t understand why anyone from any body (African union/ United Nations) would force mayotte to join Comoros if it’s contrary to their material interest/ right to self determination. It’s completely illogical
What if we conducted referendums in various European territories on mainland Europe to explore the possibility of changing countries? For example, could certain parts of Estonia or Ukraine potentially become part of Russia through this process? While my answer is a firm "No" to this idea, it is intriguing to observe that formal Western colonial powers currently find such actions acceptable.
You should wonder who got the right to vote, who was awarded the French nationality. Half of the population is Comorian and some of them is living in Mayotte since decades. They don't have the right to vote.
This fascinating and important story has received surprisingly little international attention. But while most coverage has focused on the immigration issue, there’s been surprisingly little said about the broader issues of the partition of the Comoros, which has led to this crisis. But it does raise some important questions about self-determination in colonial situations. So, should France have held on to Mayotte? And should it continue to do so? As ever, I look forward to your thoughts and comments below.
Subjugation, exploitation and perhaps humiliation certainly could be part of the colonial experience but of course all of these adjectives also describe the experience of all peoples under domestic/native rule. Also, previous to colonization most if not all of these territories were vastly less developed at every level and his is obvious given what has happened post colonization.
I would say France would hold on to Mayotte so long as the people there express their wish to stay as part of France. Personally, I see Mayotte same as Somme or the department of France I live in. It is unfortunate the UN saw it as blocking self determination till Mayotte voted to become part of France, even though the people of the island did exactly that, exercise their choice to retain their links to France. On that note, I am also against this operation which I see is largely for political optics and trying to pull back the voters of the Rassemblement national to the mainstream (I do not see an RN voter suddenly turn symathetic to Darmanin thanks to this, and I understand that his party is genuinely worried of a Le Pen presidency come next election since Macron is ineligible). There has to be an improved asylum process in Mayotte which gives possibillity of acquiring the papers (which under current circumstances in Mayotte is difficult to regularise).
A few things to add : 1.There has never been a political unity of the Comorian islands before the creation of the Comoros by France. It is propaganda of the Comorian government to say that the Comoros archipelago has always been a united whole. Like explained in the video, the sultans of these islands were at war with each other. An ethnolinguistic unity does not necessarily lead to political unity. 2.At the time of the independence referendum, the French president at the time, Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, was in favour of the unity of the Comoros and did not want to separate the archipelago. It was the people of Mayotte who managed to convince the French parliament to take the result of the referendum island by island and thus keep the French presence in Mayotte. 3. Never in the history of France has a people been consulted so much on its belonging to France, Mayotte was French before Nice and Savoy.
Thanks so much for the extra details. Interestingly, a point I didn’t mention was that France in fact vetoed a UN Security Council resolution asking it to call of the Mayotte referendum. (The UK and USA abstained.) It was one of the few occasions where France has used its veto. Even today, it stands out for only using int in extreme cases. In fact, it hasn’t used it in quarter of a century!
@@JamesKerLindsay Of course! Concerning Operation Wambushu, it was requested by the Mahorais themselves, hence their massive support, whereas the left in France is opposed to it. The situation has been tense for a long time, the violence has been anchored on the island for far too long and the Mahorais have been calling for help for years. Today we are at a point of no return, if the people of Mayotte do not see their security and their living conditions improve in the coming months, they will take the law into their hands. And this is a real risk. It's been years since the population of Mayotte took matters into their own hands by destroying the illegal housing with the (unofficial) support of the authorities. Operation Wambushu is also being used by the government to turn the page on the highly unpopular pension reform and to launch a new unpopular reform on immigration at the national level. There are also real geopolitical stakes behind Wambushu for France's position in the Indo-Pacific. China and Russia are watching what is happening. If France does not weigh face with the Comoros who instrumentalize immigration, the image of France in Africa will be impacted once again.
@Irvine khulekani The thing is, if you want to live in France, you move to France. You can't make a neighborhood poll and then annex your town to France. That's not how it works
I'm more pro self determination than forced integration of previous colonial possessions into new countries. Mayotte in my opinion obviously wants to be part of France, they should not be forced to join another country at this point.
This video got crazier by the minute. Learning about the UN pressure going directly against the wishes of Mayotte's population, the Comoros government's crazy declarations about Mayotte (and the 270,000 inhabitants living there) being theirs and then finally the waves of illegal immigrants (which imo sounds exactly like what Belarus did to Poland/Germany a couple of years ago) has me shaking my head. It takes a lot and I mean A LOT to make France sound like the good guy in colonialism related matter, but I have to hand it to the Comoros government and the UN. They went above and beyond the call of duty and actually made France and even Le Pen look like the knights in shining armor lmao.
Considering that the majority of the island's population is black, African, and Muslim, what cultural, ethnic, or religious ties could there be between the island and France?
You should wonder who got the right to vote, who was awarded the French nationality. Half of the population is Comorian and some of them is living in Mayotte since decades. They don't have the right to vote.
The situation is grotesque on many counts, but one of the most ludicrous aspects of it all is that, were France to release Mayotte to the Comore, the Comoreans would lose their only hope of improvement as it would only take a few year for Mayotte to regress back to Comore economical situation. Another ludicrous aspect is that by crowding the "luckier" island, Comorean have already significantly worsened Mayotte economics and social life thereby defying their original purpose.
Salutations depuis Mayotte Océan Indien Le combat pour Mayotte française n'a jamais été éthnique mais politique, souvent non violent mixte et égalitaire contre la bourgeoisie comorienne commerçante et esclavagiste, plus éduquée parfois de nationalité française Ce combat a été mené principalement par les femmes sur le terrain, les chatouilleuses de Mayotte dont Zaina Mdere , ces femmes et ces hommes qui ont lutté étaient originaires des autres îles aussi mais ils avaient en commun la famine spoliation de terres , la pauvreté et la discrimination. Cette bourgeoisie comorienne n'a jamais été tendre avec le petit peuple travailleur d'où qu'ils viennent dans l'archipel L'île de Mohéli continue d'être stigmatisée encore aujourd'hui par la discrimination faite par la caste politique consanguine comorienne il faut noté bien avant l'indépendance les dirigeants politiques mahorais milités pour un rapprochement entre Mayotte et Mohéli qui étaient les plus pauvres On pourrait distingué ces iles par organisation d'origine à Mayotte et Mohéli il existe une société matrilocale et parfois matrilinéaire ethniquement ils sont proches des malgaches de la côte ouest les Sakalava, en Grande Comore c'est aussi matrilocale ethniquement proche des tanzaniens , à l'île d'Anjouan il existe une ascendance avec Oman et l'Hadramaout il y a une société patriarcale et patrilineaire Mise à part c'est différences la base et bantoue, l'écart de développement existant déjà à l'époque de l'indépendance les Comores indépendantes avaient un PIB 5 fois plus haut que celui de Mayotte et c'est là bas que le peu de mahorais aller encore pour terminer leur études. Ce que peut être les gens pourraient vouloir savoir c'est que la caste des notables de grande Comore et la bourgeoisie de Anjouan ont collaboré comme fonctionnaire de l'état colonial Ils ont milités auprès du petit peuple pour l'indépendance tout en gardant eux même la nationalité française Les mahorais ont senti qu'il n' y aurait que peu de viabilité commune se sont retirés car c'était revenir sous le joug des anciens maîtres Pour ceux qui comprennent Le vote pour le RN/FN a été un message ciblé contre le gouvernement de Macron par les natifs,ils ont démontré qu'ils étaient encore chez eux, on ne peut continuer à les violentés et à spolier leurs terres impunément sans qu'il y ait de réponses alors qu'il existe un état de droit. Le ministre Darmanin ému ou non a donné à priori une réponse aux mahorais qui en tant que contribuables ont droit à la sécurité. Comme leurs aînés les mahorais ont été capables d'engeance politique Aujourd'hui l'intérêt pour un archipel uni politiquement ne sert que les intérêts des dirigeants politiques comoriens corrompus qui appauvrissent leur pays sans oublier qu'ils continuent de mener double jeu ils sont tous binationaux ou ont travaillé en tant que fonctionnaire ou militaire dans l'état français Les Comores indépendantes et les Comores francaise en tournant le dos à ces féodaux arriérés et en s'unissant pour prendre l'opportunité d'un monde qui change pourront développer la zone La place centrale que tient l'archipel dans l'océan Indien un aéroport International en Grande Comore deux ports en eaux profondes à Anjouan et à Mayotte,une diaspora mondiale éduquée polyglotte et avec des contacts ayant tout les moyens de devenir à l'exemple du Kenya du Rwanda un des prochains hub africain à l'image de Singapour Désolé de la longueur et de langue non maitrisée Bien à vous Merci
Thank you so much for the extremely helpful comment. I really appreciated it. Unfortunately, there was a lot that I couldn't explain in the video, including the important role played by women in the MPM. So, thank you for explaining this. The situation in Mayotte is so interesting and important. I hope that I was able to provide an overview of a complex situation that many in the English-speaking world have never heard about.
In 2014 when Mayotte was made outer region of EU, the European Council unanimously recognized Mayotte as part of France. UN may have voted resolutions in the 90’s against it but EU countries position is de facto different.
Great video as usual professor. Its interesting to consider the amount of exclusive economic zones in nations like France and Portugal have from overseas territories. Keep up the good work.
Ah, the right to self-determination! Simultaneous, one of the most abused and most ignored principles of international law. For Mayotte, the problem really boils down to this decision: What do you value more, the expressed will of the people or historical territorial claims?
Look to me that France is damned either way 1. Retain Mayotte and deal with a refugee crisis plus anti-colonial criticism 2. Withdraw and see Comoros in a war with Mayotte, again for which France will be criticised Ironically if the whole archipelago had remained a French colony then all of the people there would probably be having a far better standard of living and have no need to risk their lives as economic refugees
Just grant all the migrants French citizenship. After that they'd have the right to migrate to Europe and not just to Metropolitan France but to any EU member.
@@seneca983 no. absolutely not. 30% of the 0-4 year old french population is now from african immigration, it destruct the social system of france, it's enough.
Peur de retourner sous les joug d'anciens maîtres, discrimination famine pauvreté à l'époque le PIB des Comores étaient 5 fois celui de Mayotte L'île de Mayotte et de Mohéli sont matrilocaux : spoliation des terres des notables et bourgeois comorien plus éduqués qui militaient pour l'indépendance tout en gardant la nationalité française La caste dominante n'a jamais été tendre avec le petit peuple travailleur comorien d'où qu'il vienne dans l'archipel , la société patriarcale d'instauration omanaise et Hadramaout était patriarcale et féodale, cela continue aujourd'hui d'où certains bloquages aujourd'hui Le mode peu decentralisé ne fonctionne pas Il faut noté que la constitution changé il ya peu permettait une présidence tour à tour de chaque pour l'union fédérale Quand ce fut le tour de Mayotte,tant de manigances ont fait qu'aucun candidats de Mayotte car il y en a eu quand même n'a été accepté,le tour est allé à une autre île Les politiciens voudraient que les comoriens non francais arrivent à Mayotte acquérir des papiers pour ensuite pouvoir aller en France continentale mais ne souhaitent la présidence des mahorais chez eux, ils refusent tout simplement, donc à vous de vous faire votre avis
Great question. It seems like the French influence was rather greater there. It had been under French rule longer (though not significantly), and the capital had been based there. It is also probable that there was a higher French settler population.
If the Island has voted repeatedly to remain part of France I don't see how it's the place of outsiders like the UN to tell them what to do Once you opt for independence you are responsible for your own development Can't have it both ways on one hand be independent and on the other expect French territory to take your migrants
Exactly. The funniest the comorians leave their island to go live in France when they had the opportunity. A lot of them are french and ask Mayotte to be a part of Comoria country whereas they live in France currently.
This is actually the one time, I can't blame a colonial power. not to mention the fact that its the choice of The Mayotte's, they are economically well off than the Comoros islands. So much so, that ,it seems even the Comorians flee their own country. The interesting part is, What is the Comoros government proposing ? give us back Mayotte and let us be poor together? imagine that!!😏 First improve the lives of people you are governing before having any territorial ambitions. What makes more sense here is if Comoros people want the Mayotte life so much they should hold a referendum to join Mayotte.
It really is an interesting case, isn’t it!? I can see both dudes of the argument. And it is impossible for anyone reasonable to be absolutist on this. I suspect that the side that really most unhappy about it all is in fact France.
Yes Comorians leave their country to live in France. Their are more comorians in Marseille than in the capital of Comoros. In Mayotte, a teacher without experience earn 2900 euros/mouth against 50euros/mouth in Comoros.
Very good video on the subject. It is good to see some objectivity, usually, when english speaking media or youtube channel talks about Mayotte, they forgot to mention that the people there voted repeatedly to stay French. Thanks And "fun" fact, Mayotte's maternity is the biggest in France, a lot of the migrant are pregnant woman who came to give birth in France.
The same within french Guyana, brazilian women give birth here so their progeny would benefit from good social medical care, although they are not particularly fond of France...
@@FOLIPE Why you're not trying to do without molesting or massacre the native forest natives inhabitants then on your side ? One stupid assumption against another...
I got to say this situation reminds me of Hong Kong in the 1960s everyone was protesting that Hong Kong should be returned to the Chinese and then in the 2020s everyone was protesting and holding the British flag saying please liberate us from the Chinese
I don't think people in HK were ever enthusiastic about China. The 1997 handover actually caused a major flight of people as they were afraid the CCP would impose strict censorship on the next day. They didn't do it then, but surely are now.
@@JamesKerLindsay It really is. I wonder how the FN is planning to return the favor to Mayotte if they get elected. After all, it would be quite expensive for France to enforce immigration laws in such a far off territory.
The Comoros president really said that Mayotte should become part of his country when hundreds of thousands from his country are leaving to Mayotte SMH
Fascinating video! I love how you always find interesting but little-talked about topics. As always, a morally murky situation. The plight of poverty stricken Comorans is pitiful, but I still don't think this is enough to justify violating Mahorais sovereignty and their desire for cultural preservation. It is the fault of the Comoran government that they are so poor, they have failed their citizens, so the impetus is on them to provide, not for France to play nice with illegal migration.
@@abaibrahim6709 You keep pasting that comment everywhere as if it actually offered some interesting viewpoint. It doesn't. What the hell does it even have to do with the topic?
Wait so let me get this straight the people from Comoros want to go to Mayotte because its richer than their islands because its under French control but at the same time want the island to be owned by them? Wouldn't that make the island poorer under their control and the people who wanted to leave to the French controlled island probably would want to go elsewhere to migrate?
@@randomguy6152 Why would France support an ex colony which does nothing for them and have actually demanded land that doesn't even want to go to them to begin with?
@@randomguy6152 That makes 0 sense. Why would France who hypothetically could lose their island to Comoros invest into their country for their own tourism? They wouldn't. In fact they'd likely pull all investments from that region since its one of the least tourist visited areas in the world. Let the island fall into poverty under their new African rulers and see how they like it.
Couldn't help being reminded of Australia's half -arsed Christmas Island solution to illegal immigration. Truthfully Im not sure there is a 'good' solution to these problems while there is such wealth disparity on the planet. Such an interesting and thoughtful video as always professor, thank you.
The solution is that rich countries have the right to deny immigrants if they choose. People who try immigrate illegally should be treated as invaders, and dealt with via lethal force.
Thanks so much, Luke. Yes, there are all sorts of interesting parallels with other cases. I was reminded of the appalling discussion here in the UK at the moment about small boats crossing the Channel.
@@slimdiddyd Excuse me, but it aren't only 'rich countries' that don't allow immigrants. As a matter of fact, many Asian countries do-rich or poor. In many Asian countries immigrants cannot own property, even after a 30-year residency. Foreigners have few rights and can be kicked out at any time.
@@slimdiddyd In that case most US citizens should be kicked out of North America and back to England where they belong, many Brits who have invaded parts of Europe by buying holiday homes and deciding to stay should return to good old England as soon as possible. It's a double standard you are holding.
French Guyana wanting to become part of France is a blessing for Space Exploration: The European Space Agency (ESA) launches their rockets in Korou, French Guyana because it is closer to the equator and space rockets launch better near the equator because it takes advantage of the Earth's faster spin at the equator. It's a win-win situation for ESA, Cayenne and the whole world. We get great Space Exploration, while F Guyana gets paid.
Their will to remain french should be respected by everyone, the Comoros government not even wanting back their own citizens is messed up, I wouldn't blame the Comoros citizens if they ever wanted to join France in exchange for a stable politic and better living standard😟
It was already tried. In 1997, 2 of the 3 islands that make up the Union of the Comoros seceded from the country. The islands of Anjouan and Mohéli declared independence and Anjouan even held an independence referrendum with around 99% in favor. After declaring independence, Anjouan requested to rejoin France. France refused. Those two islands ended up being reclaimed as part of the Comoros and they remain part of the Union of the Comoros to this day.
Finally back to business as usual, will be taking a look at your last few videos over the next few days; thank you for highlighting this issue! It has gotten relatively little play outside of France-based media outlets. I think in this case the situation on the ground, both in Comoros and Mayotte, as well as the other nearby French possessions, speaks for itself pretty clearly in this case. To me, this is yet another example of where this anti-Western sentiment has crept further and further into international institutions (some of it cheered on by factions in the West). In this case, the series of inflammatory actions (or lack thereof) by the Comoros government are ignored by such institutions (especially of course the African Union as you noted), while the wishes of the inhabitants of Mayotte, which had been an independent island previous to its combination by the French into a typical “supercolony” with the other Comoros islands. Although the case overall is clearly far more morally ambiguous, I feel much the same way about is the international community has ignored the actions (or lack thereof) of the Mauritius government over the last five decades towards the Chagos population, who live in abject squalor, compared to the level of criticism focused on Britain and America for their own unsavory actions decades ago. I feel we need to be very careful in this new Cold War setting about not letting anti-Western forces set the narrative and gain a propaganda edge; we need to speak clearly when the situation dictates we do so. Even on Ukraine, you’ve rarely heard Western leaders say that the goal in Ukraine is expulsion of all Russian troops and the restoration of pre-2014 borders. This lack of Western pushback, and even accedence at times, has allowed, for example: - the World Health Organization (and it’s Beijing-backed chief secretary) to spread Beijing’s propaganda on an official WHO platform - the UN Committee on Decolonization to come under the influence of anti-Western powers and enact unenforceable rulings for propaganda purposes - there are of course a host of other examples Well I’ve gone on too long already so I’ll end it there, but thank you for bringing an unbiased view to a situation that is immensely complex yet has been twisted by some, including international institutions, to fit an anti-Western narrative - your channel is such a great public resource for exactly this reason. Can’t wait to watch your other recent videos, cheers!
Thanks as ever LocalLt. I would look agree. I don’t believe in making false equivalences in the name of balance. I’m getting this a lot on my latest video on Moldova and Gagauzia. I will happily criticise Western wrongdoing when appropriate. But I’m not going to start playing the ‘they’re as bad as each other’ narrative. That said, we do need to make sure that we question Western actions when and where appropriate. But as this video showed, even in supposedly clear cut cases of colonialism, there are interesting moral and political ambiguities at play.
@@JamesKerLindsay Oh yes I very much appreciate your neutrality on these videos - I think that’s the reason I find the reporting quoting the African Union’s take on the Mayotte crisis (particularly by many American news sources, some of which slapped anti-Western headlines on an Associated Press story that was actually fairly benign) to be so frustrating and concerning.
Maybe if the Comoros govt stop using Mayotte as an easy excuse to distract ppl from its own political and economical issues, then things would have been less complicated for Comoros, Metropolitan France and Mayotte relations. There's no point for Comoros to be bitter towards Mayotte and Metropolitan France, when so many opportunities to develop and stabilise Comoros since 1974 have been sidelined by their own politicians because they prioritize unproductive cronyism instead.
Solutions that are based on humans not being humans are not solutions. Of course Comoros would be aggrieved and this would cause tensions with them. Just as it's obvious the difference between a sponsored bit of France and a poor africa country would cause migration issues with bad integration since it's far from mainland France. It's all really not rocket science, but sure, if people became angels it'd not be a problem. If only...
Well if the island gets back into Comoros, they will get poverty rates that the original inhabitants would want to migrate to France. And that's a bigger problem...
Hey Professor. I found the term i was looking for to describe my position. "Egalitarian Self Determination." Or "Absolute Self Determination". Do you have any thoughts on this concept? Do you know anyone who currently advocates for it. Seems like Ghandi, Mandela, Woodrow Wilson, and others did but they are not around anymore. I view Absolute self determination supersedes territorial integrity. International law disagrees. So im looking for notable intellectuals advocating for this.
Thanks, Drew. There was time when the idea of a general principle of self-determination was seen in more vegetal terms than today. But while a nice idea, it was completely impractical. Ethnic groups don’t fall into neat areas. They often overlap. How do we decide which group gets what territory. And do we condone forced population transfers. And then there is the question of which groups qualify? When is a group too small for self-determination? We actually cover this in the book global.oup.com/academic/product/secession-and-state-creation-9780190494049?cc=cy&lang=en
@@JamesKerLindsay I would argue we have current boundaries that can be used as a baseline. However I look at them more organically, moldable and ever changing. Here in America we have 50 state. In my state of Pennsylvania we have 67 individual counties. We could allow Pennsylvanians to vote in a referendum on union or independence from America. If hypothetically it was successful I would argue Pennsylvania would have the right to reapply back to America if it wanted. Similar to how I would argue UK could reapply back to the EU in terms of customs union. If Pennsylvania elected to leave and not rejoin America. I would argue the 67 individual counties could vote in their own referendum on independence from Pennsylvania or maintain their union. I do believe city state is the lowest level I personally would advocate (Rome, Singapore, Monaco) for but we do have Amish communities here and it would be hard for me to argue their community should not have that right. I would absolutely not be in favor of any forced removal. People would have the option to immigrate/move to another area if they so wished as I believe in international free travel and not locking your citizens inside because you suck as a leader lol (Cough DPRK Cough). From my understanding egalitarian self determination recognizes the inherent value of human rights, equality, and inclusivity. It goes beyond merely allowing for self determination based on ethnic, national, or religious grounds. I would not tie it to religion, ethnic make up, culture, etc. It could be a completely random group if they are centrally located and universal suffrage vote for it in a democratic credible way. While I understand the practicality of it could/would be a mess and we can joke about it. However I believe this view is the most justified position one could have if were being fair to everyone. I did buy your book already.
Thanks, Drew - on all counts! :-) I can see the argument on territorial grounds. However, the US is a rather special case. In most places, the decision would inevitably be centred on ethno-national criteria. And it is also worth worth remembering that states don’t like to give up territory, for a variety of reasons. This could be on economic grounds. It could also be from a fear that if one area goes then others will follow. And I’m not sure that this would be good for international peace and stability. Can you imagine a UN made up of 1000 or 10,000 members? The international system would become dangerously chaotic.
@@JamesKerLindsay For sure. I'm ok with it being based on ethno-national criteria. South Korea and Japan basically are. Its not how I would build a state but I understand that mindset. I understand it would basically shatter global boundaries overnight if adopted. I really don't like this mindset countries have of "You are part of us no matter how you feel" to every part of their country. Does it really come down to might makes right + multilateral military alliances + we establish world order (ex UNSC) On the UN. The size is not my concern. Organization are organizations and they will find a way to operate. It's the structure and ability for a few countries from UK, Russia and us Americans and others to dictate world order in the UN that I don't find egalitarian. How about no permanent members.
@@JamesKerLindsay do you know it's france who abolish arabe-muslim slavetrade in mayotte and comoros ? no one never talk about it. and no, mayotte was never a colony it was buyed legaly by france, and it was just a protectorat. if there is 2 different word for colony and protectorat it's because it's not the same thing
Yes, very dissimilar to Northen Ireland. In NI, the people who voted to remain in the UK were descendant of british settlers sent them to colonize Ireland. In Mayotte, there were very few french settler and the people who voted to remains in France were the native people.
@@Bb13190 Who voted in northern Ireland? And why weren't the French in Oran and Algiers given a chance to remain in France without Algerian autonomy if the 1961 referendum lost there?
Part of the issue is individuals acting as smugglers are bringing the people to mayotte. Well, if you want something to not be done, you have to make it undesirable. I would return amy caught migrant boat to the nearest island then confiscate the boat. Further tho people only take extreme action to leave home if home is hell. Maybe an international aid regimen organized by france would help slow the tide.
Do you actually watch the channel!? This is the problem. Because I don’t mention everything bad in the world in each video I get accused of ignoring things. Just watch this week’s video on Gagauzia. This clearly shows the lingering effect of Russian and Soviet imperialism!
@@JamesKerLindsay my point is French colonialism is history , Moscow is not, and we see it in the making , Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Belarus , etc. After Ukranien war UN declarations are 100% irrelevant. UN can target the Democratic States , not the really bad guys
Unlike Russia, France protects its citizens regardless of skin color or religion. Russian army flatten all the block houses from separatist regions. I am curious if the people from Donbas will vote for Russia again.
0:21 different cultures. Western countries that try to clamp down on illegal immigrants are routinely accused of violating the human rights of the illegals. We don’t hear about such rights in other continents like Asia and Africa when countries take strong actions to protect their borders.
Great breakdown. I can understand both sides of the situation from Comoros wanting the island 'returned back' to them and to the Mayotte's right to self determination to remain apart of France proper. I do think it's important to relinquish control of previous colonial holdings but I also think the right to self determination exceeds that in importance. I also think any decisions regarding the right to self determination should be voted on and the threshold should not be a simple majority of 50% but instead a far safer super majority which in my personal opinion I think should require around 2/3 of the population.
Self-determination doesn't trump territorial integrity. The US would never allow it in a part of itself, neither would France in it's mainland. Why should Comoros and other african countries? Just because europe gets to tell them, that's why
@@FOLIPEbecause there was ni comoros before france. Theyre separate kingdoms ruled by different sultans. Since there was no common state then there is no violation of territorial integrity.. the scenario youre presenting is like if russia conquered ukraine and merged it with belarus calling it belakraine.. after a few decades russia sets belakraine free but your’re forcing the ukrainians to stay in union with belarus against their will.
The French have put an end to Arab-Muslim slavery on our island of lagoons. France protected us from the Malagasy razias and protected us from the Comorian brothers who killed us. France gave us shoes and allowed us to have beautiful houses by replacing them with our old houses made of earth. This is why France will always be at home in Mayotte! France has all the recognition of the Mahorais. Long live France ! 🇨🇵
They want to remain part of France that’s the wise decision I come from an island surrounded by French regions but yet my island is independent and that independence isn’t worth anything just languishing in poverty. These islands aren’t worth wild nations it’s better to be part of a more developed nations! They wise to remain French!!!
Let me guess. Dominica? The only island country I can think of surrounded by France to the north and south. I thought Dominica was developing a lot within the past few years.
Its not colonial partition which is the issue. Its just the fact that places that are still under french control are a lot better than they would be under indigenous control. Thats why people are moving. while I understand it to an extent because they didn't want former colonies dissintegrating. I find it funny how places have the right to self determination from some overseas powers but don't have the right to self determination from other places over seas.
Of course the colonial partition is the issue. France colonized then divided the lands, subsidizing the bits it chose to keep. Of course they are doing relatively better off than the lands colonized and then thrown away
@@FOLIPE its the population of mayotte who choose to stay french, not france who choose to keep mayotte. and for your information comoros were a protectorat, not a colony, and they have the same level of wealth than other africans countrys, it's mayotte who is a lot wealthier because they are french and benefit from the french social system. and another information, the only comoros unity who ever exist was a french administration creation at the moment of independance mayotte was the poorest island, and it was the other islands who were the wealthiest. stop talking about sh*t you don't know like you don't know it's france who abolish arabe slavetrade in comoros
@kleijnee There's no but there. Most of Africa is a colonial creation. This is EXACTLY the situation this rule was created to avoid. France partitioned the colony of Comoros which existed before the referendum. That is an absolute irrefutable fact. It is absolutely Frances's responsibility it took a part of the territory of the colony of Comoros and detached it from the rest due to the local result being different from the rest of the colony, which it didn't do for example in algeria
@@FOLIPEcomoros is a colonioal creation. You want to deconize? Fine.. return it to the way it was before colonization - 4 different sultanates. Conprende?
The French have put an end to Arab-Muslim slavery on our island of lagoons. France protected us from the Malagasy razias and protected us from the Comorian brothers who killed us. France gave us shoes and allowed us to have beautiful houses by replacing them with our old houses made of earth. This is why France will always be at home in Mayotte! France has all the recognition of the Mahorais. Long live France ! 🇨🇵
07:18 if voting was fair and in limits of EU I see no problem here but I it really smells fishy which countries and why are filling those resolutions in UN :)
I feel like this whole situation and living standard difference between all the Comoros islands is evidence that sometimes colonization was beneficial.
Do I understand it well, that according to international law Mayotte is Comorose territory and France annexed it illegally because of referendum? What is a difference between this and Crimea then?
This is what Mayotte wanted. France itself has become a mess due to the Migrant Crisis. So the people of Mayotte got what they wanted. They are now part of France, so France problems are now their problems too. Had they joined the Comoros, sure they would be poorer, but the Islands would be more similar to the Former French Antillean Islands. Basically Tax Havens and Tourist Resorts. Meaning they would actually be very stable and one of the happiest nations on Earth. They should've embraced Independency, instead of continue to rely on France to sustain them.
To me. An issue with these newly independent countries is they fail because they do not know how to self-govern. It is not a matter of the quality of the people. It's a matter of not having learned the experience the expertise that is required to have a functioning government. Here's my prediction if Mayotte is forced to be incorporated into the Comoros Islands, it will become just as poor per capita as the other islands if it is not allowed to self-govern. In the long run France may be better off to offer mainland relocation to its citizens and let the island go.
Im all for mayotte remaining apart of france cause i dont want to hear about hundreds of africans dying to get to reunion island(another french territory)
I'm from Reunion Island, we don't have African people coming (that I know off) but we have people from madagascar and people coming all the way from Sri-Lanka ...
@kleijnee actually Ueva , Fetu or Futu and Alofi - u know there real Polynesian names not that of some Cornish sailor from hundreds of years ago . It was a comment about how they ignored it when listing Frances over seas districts .
@kleijnee Yes its a very special place being both Tongan and Samoan at the same time as being something else again . Sadly in the last days of the old war god Tu all the Alofi islanders were killed , cooked and eaten and that place can be visited on Futuna ,which is why Alofi has no people today being a garden of Futuna .A nicer place is the beautiful lake on Wallis
In my opinion, the French, just like their British counterpart in the Chagos Islands, kept a piece of the Indian Ocean for the security interest. Mayotte provides France with a dominant control of trade between Africa and Asia. As Africa increases its trade with Asia, the importance of the Mayotte and Chagos Islands to monitor and hinder that trade network will become more apparent.
No really comparable, the Mayotte have had multiple chances to become either independent, or become part of Comoros and have consistently voted to remain a part of France. Chagosian people however were completely removed from their home islands, had no voted on independence or joining another country and have no power to determine their future.
@@theinternetofrandomthings7796 The question is not about chances for independence or becoming part of Comoros, but the splitting of a legitimate country for their self-interest. Mayotte was the capital of the Comoros. It's like the British providing independence to Ireland and keeping Dublin and Northern Ireland. The West complain about Russia's invasion of Crimea and part of Eastern Ukraine, but this is even worst.
@@marrs1013 I am sure you are aware of the ongoing trade war between China and the USA. China is Africa's largest trading partner, and any political conflict between China and the West will have a direct impact on the China and Africa trade route. The UK, France and the USA all have a strong military presence on those islands.
If they're breaking rules why should france care about them? If their own government isn't. I will say illegal immigration is very contested topic especially with humans rights group reaction
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes. Stretching that notion this far is naive and borderline infantile. Being human doesn't give the right to anybody to disrupt another human society. The world isn't a Smurf cartoon, using force is something necessary in case history and a certain number of recent events didn't point this out clearly enough.
Empires thrive when its client states produce materials that enhance Empire wealth. In the 21st century, when client states become burdensome (impoverished welfare states producing few products), the empires seek liberation from their client states.
If Mayotte wants to remain a fully integrated part of France they should shar the same rules when it comes to free movemen, the Schengen agreemen etc. Let migrants go on to Europe if they want. Many European countries has a deficit of labor force.
I'm sorry, I completely disagree whether de-invasion's been successful or not, never abolishing slavery and colonialism, but just changing faces, there are still tens of millions of slaves in the world, and another issue is that countries still have colonies like the United States or Britain or France or the Netherlands these countries still have dozens of islands as colonies with a subset of a state.
vox populi Autodétermination of Mayotte, 1976 Je souhaite que Mayotte demeure au sein de la République française I would like Mayotte to remain within the French Republic 17845 Je souhaite que Mayotte fasse partie de l'État comorien I want Mayotte to be part of the Comorian state 104 thank you for respecting the free choice of Mahorais
Interesting video professor! While much attention is given to the US and UK's distant territories, France's non-European lands are quite a bit bigger in size and in their scale of integration with Metropolitan France. I'm of the opinion that existing outside the English language media sphere has something to do with this. P.S.: I was not aware that one of France's overseas territories was so close to Mozambique, and specifically embattled Cabo Delgado province. I'll have to review what involvement France has had in the counter-insurgency in Moz since 2017. My cousin and I were just debating about the wrinkles of lasting European colonial legacies. Two major examples off the top of my head include Italy's intelligence collaboration with Somalian authorities that indirectly led to US soldiers being killed in Mogadishu. The other is the infamous sale of French weapons to the Argentinian military junta and Saddam, which were then used to fight UK and US armed forces respectively in the Falklands and Iraq. In other news, I'll be studying for my Master's in International Affairs through Arizona State from this fall! Exciting times!!
Diversity is a strength, the people from Mayotte should accept the vibrant progress that the immigrants bring such as ethnic food... and.. well... diversity?
It seems like a lot of French people might not be aware of the Comoros' modern history, beyond its colonial past. I wanted to point out that in my opinion, Prof James Ker-Lindsay may have left out some important information due to his own western imperial biases. For example, the notorious French mercenary Bob Denard was involved in four of the 19 coup attempts that have rocked the Comoros since the islands gained independence from France in 1975. At one point, Denard was even considered the de facto leader of the Comoros, though many Comorians hold him responsible for destabilizing the islands. It's worth noting that Prof James Ker-Lindsay doesn't mention this fact
Sorry, but that had nothing to do with this! (And I was more than aware of it.) In fact, had I dwelt on the fact that Comoros has been prone to coups then you would have said that I was a Western imperialist trying to justify why Mayotte was better off outside the Comoros. I suspect you just wanted to work it in to show off. :-)
The fascinating thing about this, is the fact the UN has consistently gone against the wishes of the Mayotte population to remain a part of france. So much for supporting self determination.
Eh.... the situation is similar to the Donbas in Ukraine. If you populate an area with colonists, then those colonists vote to remain, does that really count? The answer is no. No it doesn't.
@@jeffmorris5802 that ain't the question in Dombass.
The rebels always where Russian funded and where originally indipendentist not pro joining Russia.
The Dombass separatist could have rebeled for thousend different reasons if Russia wanted It to be so.
@@jeffmorris5802 But they aren't colonists. At least not 90%. From what I remember, Mayotte used to be the political center of the Comoros under French rule. This meant, that the population had more power and a closer connection to France than the people on the other islands, leading them to reject independence.
Donbas is a very different story and it is actually unclear if a majority of the people of the Donbas actually ever supported becoming a part of Russia.
Self-determination is one of UN's values but so is territorial integrity. It's not like any arbitrary region has the right to self-determination just because a majority of the population there want it. A single family can't demand that their house and lot becomes a sovereign country even if they all agree on that. So what kind of regions of populations do have a right to self-determination? Solve that problem decisively and you'll be deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize.
@@seneca983 I think that what makes this case special, is that the region is not arbitrary but as an island has a clear natural boundary.
The people of Mayotte have voted routinely to be part of France, so I don't see the argument for transferring them to the poorer and less developed Comoros. It just doesn't make much sense to me.
If the people wanted to join the Comoros, they should, but clearly, they dont
(Ps I'm irish)
Well, that last bit was a bit of a kicker! :-)
But of course Ireland is another very good example of this problem. What happens when you have decolonisation running up against the self-determination of a particular group that wants to stay a part of the colonial state. In this case, it’s a little different as the Mahorais are largely indigenous, rather than French settlers. It’s rather an interesting, and far from straightforward, discussion.
@Prof James Ker-Lindsay true. I'm not particularly pro irish unification as my view is that any unification should see a super majority (60%+). Otherwise, we would see issues in the long run.
(Thanks for the heart)
Who is the person who is voting to be part of colonial power
French they do this proganda
Long time when Djibouti take their freedom they said we want to join Somalia
but French they make fake voting and said they said we want to be a country
that time French Frist goal was that Djibouti join Ethiopia but in Djibouti they don't want to be under colonial agian
Mental slavery my guy
@@alexanderkowal5710 Oh dear.
While Northern Ireland and Mayotte decided not to be part of a new nation, Malaysia did expel Singapore, it's richest, most developed territory from the federation in 1960s against the wishes of many Singaporean citizens and politicians then.
Thanks. I actually made a video on that topic th-cam.com/video/8PJ9JTod9X0/w-d-xo.html It was a fascinating, and indeed unique, case in modern international relations.
How exactly did Ireland vote for independence and northern Ireland to remain with the UK? I ask because I don't know. What was the referendum and did it win in every town in Ireland and lose in every town of northern Ireland?
@@FOLIPE Initially the UK government wanted to make the whole of Ireland a "free state" with a home parliament (later independent). This was done due to armed rebellion in Ireland against British rule.
However, yes, the majority in *Northern* Ireland at the time were both very pro-UK and very anti-Catholic (Dominant religion of the South). Domestic militias formed to resist any Southern rule. To avert the risk of civil war, the UK kept Northern Ireland, hoping to reunify it again later under a new arrangement.
Of course, 100 years later, we're still here! 😂
@@UNSKIALzPSN But when did they vote on it
@@FOLIPE They didn't really. The UK unilaterally partitioned Ireland.
Violence and boycotted votes (where half the community didn't participate) kept the status quo, until the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) was finally signed in 1998. This was approved via an all-island referendum, and states that NI is entitled to a further referendum to unify with the South, if it seems likely that a majority would vote in favour.
The GFA is the main reason NI still exists today, and is also the tool to decide it's future. It is backed by the UN, EU, Ireland, UK and USA. So if you want a "vote" to point to, that's probably it. 1998.
The moment you realize that Frances largest neighbour is Brazil, not Germany
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Haha! Blimey. When you put it that way!
And how long will it take for you to realize that even Spain is bigger than Germany?
Actually, if you consider land area and maritime borders, France's biggest neighbor is Canada.
@@glassman1533 what he meant by largest neighbour was the longest land border.
France share his longest land border with Brazil.
If Mayotte wants to be part of France, let it be part of France. Like that should literally be the end of the conversation.
Thanks. Yes and no. It’s really interesting to read the reactions to this video. As I mentioned, there is a long-standing principle that colonial territories shouldn’t be partitioned. And many people would instinctively condemn France for doing it. But this case perhaps pushes people to think a little bit harder about it all. It isn’t as clearcut as it seems. We often think that there must be some sort of strategic reason for these sorts of partition decisions. But I’m sure France would rather not have this problem at all. In that sense, there are some interesting parallels with Northern Ireland.
@@JamesKerLindsay They'd rather not have this problem as I'd rather have my cake after eating it, but not eat it is not something I would ever consider. All would be done if they had followed the full results of the referendum done in the whole islands back then. Instead here we are now...
@@JamesKerLindsay "yes and no". not to you to say, you are incompetent. saying the partition of islands is the root of poverty in comoros is a blatant lie.
@@JamesKerLindsaybut the question is did france take the whole area as a whole or did france take disparate kingdoms and made into a whole? If they were separate before then the comoros cannot claim territorial integrity when there was no united comoros at the onset.
Thanks, as always, for laying out this topic in such a balanced academic fashion. Awesome content!
It seems the people of Mayotte indicated their desire to remain as part of France. Despite international bodies to enforce their concept of a "geographical political construct," the people of Mayotte chose the pathway they wanted to follow & remained part of France.
In an effort to maintain the rule of law, France has exercised it sovereign right to territorial integrity by starting to remove migrates who are, in fact, in France illegally.
As a political entity, France governs itself as it chooses. Laws are and should be the foundation to an orderly society. Without laws, anarchy results. Despite the unfortunate optics of this situation in Mayotte, France is moving to maintain stability of its society by enforcement of French laws in removing people who, by their own initiative, entered Mayotte illegally. The optics are bad, but if enforcement is not established, a worse situation will develop. Politics is a difficult Art, but France, through its own democratic processes, is attempting to conduct the Art of politics. Thank you again for the outstanding content you provide. Your efforts help to inform & educate such a vast number of people is appreciated.
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What if a neighborhood of France indicated it's desire to belong to another country?
@@FOLIPE it's not about becoming French, it's about staying French
@@theobanse1494 They weren't a part of France though, so it is about becoming french. And what about Oran and Algiers who didn't want autonomy inside algeria? These ones WERE a part of France. Also why did mainland France vote count in the 1961 referendum but not the vote of other comoro islands in the Mayotte case? At the time Mayotte WAS surely Comoros.
The hypocrisy is endless
I don’t understand why anyone from any body (African union/ United Nations) would force mayotte to join Comoros if it’s contrary to their material interest/ right to self determination. It’s completely illogical
What if we conducted referendums in various European territories on mainland Europe to explore the possibility of changing countries? For example, could certain parts of Estonia or Ukraine potentially become part of Russia through this process? While my answer is a firm "No" to this idea, it is intriguing to observe that formal Western colonial powers currently find such actions acceptable.
Because of territorial integrity.
You should wonder who got the right to vote, who was awarded the French nationality. Half of the population is Comorian and some of them is living in Mayotte since decades. They don't have the right to vote.
@@tienouchouOf course they are illegal immigrants.
Why exactly should illegal immigrants have the right to vote?
@@abaibrahim6709 Copy paste pasta Somali???
This fascinating and important story has received surprisingly little international attention. But while most coverage has focused on the immigration issue, there’s been surprisingly little said about the broader issues of the partition of the Comoros, which has led to this crisis. But it does raise some important questions about self-determination in colonial situations. So, should France have held on to Mayotte? And should it continue to do so? As ever, I look forward to your thoughts and comments below.
How about Sudan?
Is this the same guy who accuses Italians of inhumane treatment of approximately 50000 illegal immigrants in just the first months of 2023?
Mahorais choose to stay in France. Taking the local point of view, Comore is the colonial power in Mayotte, not France ...
Subjugation, exploitation and perhaps humiliation certainly could be part of the colonial experience but of course all of these adjectives also describe the experience of all peoples under domestic/native rule. Also, previous to colonization most if not all of these territories were vastly less developed at every level and his is obvious given what has happened post colonization.
I would say France would hold on to Mayotte so long as the people there express their wish to stay as part of France. Personally, I see Mayotte same as Somme or the department of France I live in. It is unfortunate the UN saw it as blocking self determination till Mayotte voted to become part of France, even though the people of the island did exactly that, exercise their choice to retain their links to France. On that note, I am also against this operation which I see is largely for political optics and trying to pull back the voters of the Rassemblement national to the mainstream (I do not see an RN voter suddenly turn symathetic to Darmanin thanks to this, and I understand that his party is genuinely worried of a Le Pen presidency come next election since Macron is ineligible). There has to be an improved asylum process in Mayotte which gives possibillity of acquiring the papers (which under current circumstances in Mayotte is difficult to regularise).
A few things to add :
1.There has never been a political unity of the Comorian islands before the creation of the Comoros by France. It is propaganda of the Comorian government to say that the Comoros archipelago has always been a united whole. Like explained in the video, the sultans of these islands were at war with each other. An ethnolinguistic unity does not necessarily lead to political unity.
2.At the time of the independence referendum, the French president at the time, Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, was in favour of the unity of the Comoros and did not want to separate the archipelago. It was the people of Mayotte who managed to convince the French parliament to take the result of the referendum island by island and thus keep the French presence in Mayotte.
3. Never in the history of France has a people been consulted so much on its belonging to France, Mayotte was French before Nice and Savoy.
Thanks so much for the extra details. Interestingly, a point I didn’t mention was that France in fact vetoed a UN Security Council resolution asking it to call of the Mayotte referendum. (The UK and USA abstained.) It was one of the few occasions where France has used its veto. Even today, it stands out for only using int in extreme cases. In fact, it hasn’t used it in quarter of a century!
Not the first time the french parliament committed an illegal mistake in Africa
@@JamesKerLindsay Of course! Concerning Operation Wambushu, it was requested by the Mahorais themselves, hence their massive support, whereas the left in France is opposed to it. The situation has been tense for a long time, the violence has been anchored on the island for far too long and the Mahorais have been calling for help for years. Today we are at a point of no return, if the people of Mayotte do not see their security and their living conditions improve in the coming months, they will take the law into their hands. And this is a real risk. It's been years since the population of Mayotte took matters into their own hands by destroying the illegal housing with the (unofficial) support of the authorities.
Operation Wambushu is also being used by the government to turn the page on the highly unpopular pension reform and to launch a new unpopular reform on immigration at the national level.
There are also real geopolitical stakes behind Wambushu for France's position in the Indo-Pacific. China and Russia are watching what is happening. If France does not weigh face with the Comoros who instrumentalize immigration, the image of France in Africa will be impacted once again.
@Irvine khulekani The thing is, if you want to live in France, you move to France. You can't make a neighborhood poll and then annex your town to France. That's not how it works
@irvinekhulekaniif they had different sultans then how can they be one country? Or even be united? Lol..
I'm more pro self determination than forced integration of previous colonial possessions into new countries. Mayotte in my opinion obviously wants to be part of France, they should not be forced to join another country at this point.
This video got crazier by the minute. Learning about the UN pressure going directly against the wishes of Mayotte's population, the Comoros government's crazy declarations about Mayotte (and the 270,000 inhabitants living there) being theirs and then finally the waves of illegal immigrants (which imo sounds exactly like what Belarus did to Poland/Germany a couple of years ago) has me shaking my head. It takes a lot and I mean A LOT to make France sound like the good guy in colonialism related matter, but I have to hand it to the Comoros government and the UN. They went above and beyond the call of duty and actually made France and even Le Pen look like the knights in shining armor lmao.
Considering that the majority of the island's population is black, African, and Muslim, what cultural, ethnic, or religious ties could there be between the island and France?
@@abaibrahim6709There are a lot of people in France who are considered black but still identify with French culture
Forced to join another...shittier country. Just like the Falklands and Argentina
You should wonder who got the right to vote, who was awarded the French nationality. Half of the population is Comorian and some of them is living in Mayotte since decades. They don't have the right to vote.
I mean, the people of Mayotte want to remain a part of France, they should remain a part of France.
The situation is grotesque on many counts, but one of the most ludicrous aspects of it all is that, were France to release Mayotte to the Comore, the Comoreans would lose their only hope of improvement as it would only take a few year for Mayotte to regress back to Comore economical situation.
Another ludicrous aspect is that by crowding the "luckier" island, Comorean have already significantly worsened Mayotte economics and social life thereby defying their original purpose.
Salutations depuis Mayotte Océan Indien
Le combat pour Mayotte française n'a jamais été éthnique mais politique, souvent non violent mixte et égalitaire contre la bourgeoisie comorienne commerçante et esclavagiste, plus éduquée parfois de nationalité française
Ce combat a été mené principalement par les femmes sur le terrain, les chatouilleuses de Mayotte dont Zaina Mdere , ces femmes et ces hommes qui ont lutté étaient originaires des autres îles aussi mais ils avaient en commun la famine spoliation de terres , la pauvreté et la discrimination.
Cette bourgeoisie comorienne n'a jamais été tendre avec le petit peuple travailleur d'où qu'ils viennent dans l'archipel
L'île de Mohéli continue d'être stigmatisée encore aujourd'hui par la discrimination faite par la caste politique consanguine comorienne il faut noté bien avant l'indépendance les dirigeants politiques mahorais milités pour un rapprochement entre Mayotte et Mohéli qui étaient les plus pauvres
On pourrait distingué ces iles par organisation d'origine à Mayotte et Mohéli il existe une société matrilocale et parfois matrilinéaire ethniquement ils sont proches des malgaches de la côte ouest les Sakalava, en Grande Comore c'est aussi matrilocale ethniquement proche des tanzaniens , à l'île d'Anjouan il existe une ascendance avec Oman et l'Hadramaout il y a une société patriarcale et patrilineaire
Mise à part c'est différences la base et bantoue, l'écart de développement existant déjà à l'époque de l'indépendance les Comores indépendantes avaient un PIB 5 fois plus haut que celui de Mayotte et c'est là bas que le peu de mahorais aller encore pour terminer leur études.
Ce que peut être les gens pourraient vouloir savoir c'est que la caste des notables de grande Comore et la bourgeoisie de Anjouan ont collaboré comme fonctionnaire de l'état colonial
Ils ont milités auprès du petit peuple pour l'indépendance tout en gardant eux même la nationalité française
Les mahorais ont senti qu'il n' y aurait que peu de viabilité commune se sont retirés car c'était revenir sous le joug des anciens maîtres
Pour ceux qui comprennent
Le vote pour le RN/FN a été un message ciblé contre le gouvernement de Macron par les natifs,ils ont démontré qu'ils étaient encore chez eux, on ne peut continuer à les violentés et à spolier leurs terres impunément sans qu'il y ait de réponses alors qu'il existe un état de droit.
Le ministre Darmanin ému ou non a donné à priori une réponse aux mahorais qui en tant que contribuables ont droit à la sécurité.
Comme leurs aînés les mahorais ont été capables d'engeance politique
Aujourd'hui l'intérêt pour un archipel uni politiquement ne sert que les intérêts des dirigeants politiques comoriens corrompus qui appauvrissent leur pays sans oublier qu'ils continuent de mener double jeu ils sont tous binationaux ou ont travaillé en tant que fonctionnaire ou militaire dans l'état français
Les Comores indépendantes et les Comores francaise en tournant le dos à ces féodaux arriérés et en s'unissant pour prendre l'opportunité d'un monde qui change pourront développer la zone
La place centrale que tient l'archipel dans l'océan Indien un aéroport International en Grande Comore deux ports en eaux profondes à Anjouan et à Mayotte,une diaspora mondiale éduquée polyglotte et avec des contacts ayant tout les moyens de devenir à l'exemple du Kenya du Rwanda un des prochains hub africain à l'image de Singapour
Désolé de la longueur et de langue non maitrisée
Bien à vous
Merci
Thank you so much for the extremely helpful comment. I really appreciated it. Unfortunately, there was a lot that I couldn't explain in the video, including the important role played by women in the MPM. So, thank you for explaining this. The situation in Mayotte is so interesting and important. I hope that I was able to provide an overview of a complex situation that many in the English-speaking world have never heard about.
In 2014 when Mayotte was made outer region of EU, the European Council unanimously recognized Mayotte as part of France. UN may have voted resolutions in the 90’s against it but EU countries position is de facto different.
Muslim island supporting Far right in France this must be mind blwing 😂😂😂
Muslims aren't far left nor right so 😂
Beaucoup de frzncais sont musulmans et viennent d'ex colonies. Quel est le probleme ? ,
You always find the most interesting and unknown issues, thanks for the videos!
Great video as usual professor. Its interesting to consider the amount of exclusive economic zones in nations like France and Portugal have from overseas territories. Keep up the good work.
Ah, the right to self-determination!
Simultaneous, one of the most abused and most ignored principles of international law.
For Mayotte, the problem really boils down to this decision: What do you value more, the expressed will of the people or historical territorial claims?
Historical territorial claims that are non-sense as France owned Mayotte decades before the Comores.
Mayotte voted to remain.
@@pierren___ Exactly.
And the Union of the Comoros has historical territorial claims.
@@AGS363 ? No since its not democratic. France should annex Comores.
You can't arbitrarily divide colonies like that when you give them independence. Imagine if they did it too Algeria, what a mess.
I mean the people expressed their wishes in a free and fair vote and that deserves to be expected. So much for self-determination
Great video Professor, thanks for bringing up a topic that many would not have heard of
As always, thank you for addressing these issues that otherwise get little or no attention in the US.
Thanks a lot, Dan. It's so interesting to try to cover these little-known issues.
Another revetting video about something getting little exposure elsewhere. Thank you.
Look to me that France is damned either way
1. Retain Mayotte and deal with a refugee crisis plus anti-colonial criticism
2. Withdraw and see Comoros in a war with Mayotte, again for which France will be criticised
Ironically if the whole archipelago had remained a French colony then all of the people there would probably be having a far better standard of living and have no need to risk their lives as economic refugees
We have to annex it all
Just grant all the migrants French citizenship. After that they'd have the right to migrate to Europe and not just to Metropolitan France but to any EU member.
The colonialism is a good thing.
Their mistake was in the begining when they colonized it, then again when they divided it. Now it's the consequences of their past mistakes
@@seneca983 no. absolutely not. 30% of the 0-4 year old french population is now from african immigration, it destruct the social system of france, it's enough.
Why was there such a massive disparity between the opinion of the other Comoros islands and Mayotte in regards to independence?
Peur de retourner sous les joug d'anciens maîtres, discrimination famine pauvreté à l'époque le PIB des Comores étaient 5 fois celui de Mayotte
L'île de Mayotte et de Mohéli sont matrilocaux : spoliation des terres des notables et bourgeois comorien plus éduqués qui militaient pour l'indépendance tout en gardant la nationalité française
La caste dominante n'a jamais été tendre avec le petit peuple travailleur comorien d'où qu'il vienne dans l'archipel , la société patriarcale d'instauration omanaise et Hadramaout était patriarcale et féodale, cela continue aujourd'hui d'où certains bloquages aujourd'hui
Le mode peu decentralisé ne fonctionne pas
Il faut noté que la constitution changé il ya peu permettait une présidence tour à tour de chaque pour l'union fédérale
Quand ce fut le tour de Mayotte,tant de manigances ont fait qu'aucun candidats de Mayotte car il y en a eu quand même n'a été accepté,le tour est allé à une autre île
Les politiciens voudraient que les comoriens non francais arrivent à Mayotte acquérir des papiers pour ensuite pouvoir aller en France continentale mais ne souhaitent la présidence des mahorais chez eux, ils refusent tout simplement, donc à vous de vous faire votre avis
L'esclavage interafricain a été aboli en 1841 à Mayotte
Et environ 40 ans plus tard au Comores en 1912😢
Great question. It seems like the French influence was rather greater there. It had been under French rule longer (though not significantly), and the capital had been based there. It is also probable that there was a higher French settler population.
Writing an essay about this topic. This was interesting. Thank you 💥
Great. I hope it helped. :-)
@@JamesKerLindsay it did thank you. Geography abd history are important and you gave us a comprehensive background in such a short time. Thanks 🌸
Thanks Prof 👍🏻👍🏻
If they want to be part of France let them be a part of France it's not that complicated they have the right to decide the future of their island
Regarding India and Pakistan, people seem to forget the Pakistan Movement, Jinnah most famously, insisted on division.
If the Island has voted repeatedly to remain part of France I don't see how it's the place of outsiders like the UN to tell them what to do
Once you opt for independence you are responsible for your own development
Can't have it both ways on one hand be independent and on the other expect French territory to take your migrants
Exactly.
The funniest the comorians leave their island to go live in France when they had the opportunity. A lot of them are french and ask Mayotte to be a part of Comoria country whereas they live in France currently.
This is actually the one time, I can't blame a colonial power. not to mention the fact that its the choice of The Mayotte's, they are economically well off than the Comoros islands. So much so, that ,it seems even the Comorians flee their own country.
The interesting part is, What is the Comoros government proposing ? give us back Mayotte and let us be poor together? imagine that!!😏 First improve the lives of people you are governing before having any territorial ambitions.
What makes more sense here is if Comoros people want the Mayotte life so much they should hold a referendum to join Mayotte.
It really is an interesting case, isn’t it!? I can see both dudes of the argument. And it is impossible for anyone reasonable to be absolutist on this. I suspect that the side that really most unhappy about it all is in fact France.
Yes Comorians leave their country to live in France. Their are more comorians in Marseille than in the capital of Comoros. In Mayotte, a teacher without experience earn 2900 euros/mouth against 50euros/mouth in Comoros.
Very good video on the subject. It is good to see some objectivity, usually, when english speaking media or youtube channel talks about Mayotte, they forgot to mention that the people there voted repeatedly to stay French. Thanks
And "fun" fact, Mayotte's maternity is the biggest in France, a lot of the migrant are pregnant woman who came to give birth in France.
The same within french Guyana, brazilian women give birth here so their progeny would benefit from good social medical care, although they are not particularly fond of France...
@@vermicelledecheval5219 did you ever try decolonize? No? Ah
@@FOLIPE Why you're not trying to do without molesting or massacre the native forest natives inhabitants then on your side ? One stupid assumption against another...
Mayotte benefit being part of France, that is why people from Comoros is moving into mayotte
I got to say this situation reminds me of Hong Kong in the 1960s everyone was protesting that Hong Kong should be returned to the Chinese and then in the 2020s everyone was protesting and holding the British flag saying please liberate us from the Chinese
Meanwhile in the UK bits and peaces also protest and seem to want out. Also in Spain and in Ukraine it caused a war. Funny, that.
I don't think people in HK were ever enthusiastic about China. The 1997 handover actually caused a major flight of people as they were afraid the CCP would impose strict censorship on the next day.
They didn't do it then, but surely are now.
The difference is that HK inhabitants did not get to vote on the territory's future.
Very interesting that the Maorais have chosen the FN. I doubt that they would be welcomed in mainland France among their fellow voter base.
Indeed! You’re absolutely right. It is very interesting, isn’t it!?
@@JamesKerLindsay It really is. I wonder how the FN is planning to return the favor to Mayotte if they get elected. After all, it would be quite expensive for France to enforce immigration laws in such a far off territory.
Fantastic overview, professor.
Thank you so much!
Since a wall cannot be built around Mayotte, maybe a moat?
fascinating!! thanks for this!!!!
Many thanks, Greg. Really appreciated.
They wanted independence but go back to French territory because of their country mismanagement
Thanks!
Thank you so much! That was very kind of you and really appreciated. Very best regards, James
The Comoros president really said that Mayotte should become part of his country when hundreds of thousands from his country are leaving to Mayotte SMH
The comorian president is a liar
Fascinating video! I love how you always find interesting but little-talked about topics.
As always, a morally murky situation. The plight of poverty stricken Comorans is pitiful, but I still don't think this is enough to justify violating Mahorais sovereignty and their desire for cultural preservation. It is the fault of the Comoran government that they are so poor, they have failed their citizens, so the impetus is on them to provide, not for France to play nice with illegal migration.
@@abaibrahim6709 It is upto the people of that small African Island to decide if they want to join China or not.
@@abaibrahim6709 You keep pasting that comment everywhere as if it actually offered some interesting viewpoint. It doesn't. What the hell does it even have to do with the topic?
Wait so let me get this straight the people from Comoros want to go to Mayotte because its richer than their islands because its under French control but at the same time want the island to be owned by them? Wouldn't that make the island poorer under their control and the people who wanted to leave to the French controlled island probably would want to go elsewhere to migrate?
no it means France can support the island more making it a massive tourist location and favourable vacation place for French
@@randomguy6152 Why would France support an ex colony which does nothing for them and have actually demanded land that doesn't even want to go to them to begin with?
@@scarletcrusade77 the colony can be good for tourism which is very profitable if France invest into them
@@randomguy6152 That makes 0 sense. Why would France who hypothetically could lose their island to Comoros invest into their country for their own tourism? They wouldn't. In fact they'd likely pull all investments from that region since its one of the least tourist visited areas in the world. Let the island fall into poverty under their new African rulers and see how they like it.
IT WOULD 100%
Rather than all those other islands raising themselves up it's easier to "bail"
Thanks prof,👍
Couldn't help being reminded of Australia's half -arsed Christmas Island solution to illegal immigration. Truthfully Im not sure there is a 'good' solution to these problems while there is such wealth disparity on the planet.
Such an interesting and thoughtful video as always professor, thank you.
The solution is that rich countries have the right to deny immigrants if they choose. People who try immigrate illegally should be treated as invaders, and dealt with via lethal force.
Thanks so much, Luke. Yes, there are all sorts of interesting parallels with other cases. I was reminded of the appalling discussion here in the UK at the moment about small boats crossing the Channel.
@@slimdiddyd They should definitely be returned to their country of origin.
@@slimdiddyd Excuse me, but it aren't only 'rich countries' that don't allow immigrants. As a matter of fact, many Asian countries do-rich or poor. In many Asian countries immigrants cannot own property, even after a 30-year residency. Foreigners have few rights and can be kicked out at any time.
@@slimdiddyd In that case most US citizens should be kicked out of North America and back to England where they belong, many Brits who have invaded parts of Europe by buying holiday homes and deciding to stay should return to good old England as soon as possible. It's a double standard you are holding.
French Guyana wanting to become part of France is a blessing for Space Exploration:
The European Space Agency (ESA) launches their rockets in Korou, French Guyana because it is closer to the equator and space rockets launch better near the equator because it takes advantage of the Earth's faster spin at the equator. It's a win-win situation for ESA, Cayenne and the whole world. We get great Space Exploration, while F Guyana gets paid.
Why should the issue of self determination be overruled by the issue of unity? What about the self determination of, for example, the Falkland Island?
Keep going Sir. Your videos are very interesting and informatib.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate the kind support.
Their will to remain french should be respected by everyone, the Comoros government not even wanting back their own citizens is messed up, I wouldn't blame the Comoros citizens if they ever wanted to join France in exchange for a stable politic and better living standard😟
It was already tried. In 1997, 2 of the 3 islands that make up the Union of the Comoros seceded from the country. The islands of Anjouan and Mohéli declared independence and Anjouan even held an independence referrendum with around 99% in favor. After declaring independence, Anjouan requested to rejoin France. France refused. Those two islands ended up being reclaimed as part of the Comoros and they remain part of the Union of the Comoros to this day.
As they said it better to be a pheonix tail then a chicken head.
I’m so glad I’ve found your channel! Subscribed!
Thank you so much! And a very warm welcome. :-)
Finally back to business as usual, will be taking a look at your last few videos over the next few days; thank you for highlighting this issue! It has gotten relatively little play outside of France-based media outlets.
I think in this case the situation on the ground, both in Comoros and Mayotte, as well as the other nearby French possessions, speaks for itself pretty clearly in this case.
To me, this is yet another example of where this anti-Western sentiment has crept further and further into international institutions (some of it cheered on by factions in the West).
In this case, the series of inflammatory actions (or lack thereof) by the Comoros government are ignored by such institutions (especially of course the African Union as you noted), while the wishes of the inhabitants of Mayotte, which had been an independent island previous to its combination by the French into a typical “supercolony” with the other Comoros islands.
Although the case overall is clearly far more morally ambiguous, I feel much the same way about is the international community has ignored the actions (or lack thereof) of the Mauritius government over the last five decades towards the Chagos population, who live in abject squalor, compared to the level of criticism focused on Britain and America for their own unsavory actions decades ago.
I feel we need to be very careful in this new Cold War setting about not letting anti-Western forces set the narrative and gain a propaganda edge; we need to speak clearly when the situation dictates we do so. Even on Ukraine, you’ve rarely heard Western leaders say that the goal in Ukraine is expulsion of all Russian troops and the restoration of pre-2014 borders. This lack of Western pushback, and even accedence at times, has allowed, for example:
- the World Health Organization (and it’s Beijing-backed chief secretary) to spread Beijing’s propaganda on an official WHO platform
- the UN Committee on Decolonization to come under the influence of anti-Western powers and enact unenforceable rulings for propaganda purposes
- there are of course a host of other examples
Well I’ve gone on too long already so I’ll end it there, but thank you for bringing an unbiased view to a situation that is immensely complex yet has been twisted by some, including international institutions, to fit an anti-Western narrative - your channel is such a great public resource for exactly this reason.
Can’t wait to watch your other recent videos, cheers!
Thanks as ever LocalLt. I would look agree. I don’t believe in making false equivalences in the name of balance. I’m getting this a lot on my latest video on Moldova and Gagauzia. I will happily criticise Western wrongdoing when appropriate. But I’m not going to start playing the ‘they’re as bad as each other’ narrative. That said, we do need to make sure that we question Western actions when and where appropriate.
But as this video showed, even in supposedly clear cut cases of colonialism, there are interesting moral and political ambiguities at play.
@@JamesKerLindsay Oh yes I very much appreciate your neutrality on these videos - I think that’s the reason I find the reporting quoting the African Union’s take on the Mayotte crisis (particularly by many American news sources, some of which slapped anti-Western headlines on an Associated Press story that was actually fairly benign) to be so frustrating and concerning.
Maybe if the Comoros govt stop using Mayotte as an easy excuse to distract ppl from its own political and economical issues, then things would have been less complicated for Comoros, Metropolitan France and Mayotte relations. There's no point for Comoros to be bitter towards Mayotte and Metropolitan France, when so many opportunities to develop and stabilise Comoros since 1974 have been sidelined by their own politicians because they prioritize unproductive cronyism instead.
Solutions that are based on humans not being humans are not solutions. Of course Comoros would be aggrieved and this would cause tensions with them. Just as it's obvious the difference between a sponsored bit of France and a poor africa country would cause migration issues with bad integration since it's far from mainland France. It's all really not rocket science, but sure, if people became angels it'd not be a problem. If only...
Well if the island gets back into Comoros, they will get poverty rates that the original inhabitants would want to migrate to France.
And that's a bigger problem...
Give all to France
And some comorians are living in France and are french.
Fantastic job!!!
Thank you so much!
Hey Professor. I found the term i was looking for to describe my position. "Egalitarian Self Determination." Or "Absolute Self Determination". Do you have any thoughts on this concept? Do you know anyone who currently advocates for it. Seems like Ghandi, Mandela, Woodrow Wilson, and others did but they are not around anymore. I view Absolute self determination supersedes territorial integrity. International law disagrees. So im looking for notable intellectuals advocating for this.
Thanks, Drew. There was time when the idea of a general principle of self-determination was seen in more vegetal terms than today. But while a nice idea, it was completely impractical. Ethnic groups don’t fall into neat areas. They often overlap. How do we decide which group gets what territory. And do we condone forced population transfers. And then there is the question of which groups qualify? When is a group too small for self-determination? We actually cover this in the book global.oup.com/academic/product/secession-and-state-creation-9780190494049?cc=cy&lang=en
@@JamesKerLindsay I would argue we have current boundaries that can be used as a baseline. However I look at them more organically, moldable and ever changing. Here in America we have 50 state. In my state of Pennsylvania we have 67 individual counties. We could allow Pennsylvanians to vote in a referendum on union or independence from America. If hypothetically it was successful I would argue Pennsylvania would have the right to reapply back to America if it wanted. Similar to how I would argue UK could reapply back to the EU in terms of customs union. If Pennsylvania elected to leave and not rejoin America. I would argue the 67 individual counties could vote in their own referendum on independence from Pennsylvania or maintain their union. I do believe city state is the lowest level I personally would advocate (Rome, Singapore, Monaco) for but we do have Amish communities here and it would be hard for me to argue their community should not have that right. I would absolutely not be in favor of any forced removal. People would have the option to immigrate/move to another area if they so wished as I believe in international free travel and not locking your citizens inside because you suck as a leader lol (Cough DPRK Cough). From my understanding egalitarian self determination recognizes the inherent value of human rights, equality, and inclusivity. It goes beyond merely allowing for self determination based on ethnic, national, or religious grounds. I would not tie it to religion, ethnic make up, culture, etc. It could be a completely random group if they are centrally located and universal suffrage vote for it in a democratic credible way. While I understand the practicality of it could/would be a mess and we can joke about it. However I believe this view is the most justified position one could have if were being fair to everyone. I did buy your book already.
Thanks, Drew - on all counts! :-) I can see the argument on territorial grounds. However, the US is a rather special case. In most places, the decision would inevitably be centred on ethno-national criteria. And it is also worth worth remembering that states don’t like to give up territory, for a variety of reasons. This could be on economic grounds. It could also be from a fear that if one area goes then others will follow. And I’m not sure that this would be good for international peace and stability. Can you imagine a UN made up of 1000 or 10,000 members? The international system would become dangerously chaotic.
@@JamesKerLindsay For sure. I'm ok with it being based on ethno-national criteria. South Korea and Japan basically are. Its not how I would build a state but I understand that mindset. I understand it would basically shatter global boundaries overnight if adopted. I really don't like this mindset countries have of "You are part of us no matter how you feel" to every part of their country. Does it really come down to might makes right + multilateral military alliances + we establish world order (ex UNSC) On the UN. The size is not my concern. Organization are organizations and they will find a way to operate. It's the structure and ability for a few countries from UK, Russia and us Americans and others to dictate world order in the UN that I don't find egalitarian. How about no permanent members.
mayotte was never a colony, it was buyed by france, and it was a protectorat. it can't be post-colonial, and all the population want to be french.
No. It was definitely a colony - by whatever name.
@@JamesKerLindsay do you know it's france who abolish arabe-muslim slavetrade in mayotte and comoros ? no one never talk about it.
and no, mayotte was never a colony it was buyed legaly by france, and it was just a protectorat.
if there is 2 different word for colony and protectorat it's because it's not the same thing
Great video. Thanks. Pretty much all of it was news to me. Not dissimilar to Northern Ireland.
Yes, very dissimilar to Northen Ireland. In NI, the people who voted to remain in the UK were descendant of british settlers sent them to colonize Ireland.
In Mayotte, there were very few french settler and the people who voted to remains in France were the native people.
@@Bb13190 Who voted in northern Ireland? And why weren't the French in Oran and Algiers given a chance to remain in France without Algerian autonomy if the 1961 referendum lost there?
I’m pretty well informed on international politics and I had no idea Mayotte existed before this video
Thanks. I don't think many people outside of France and the Comoros did. It really is a fascinating story, and yet it is barely known.
Part of the issue is individuals acting as smugglers are bringing the people to mayotte. Well, if you want something to not be done, you have to make it undesirable. I would return amy caught migrant boat to the nearest island then confiscate the boat. Further tho people only take extreme action to leave home if home is hell. Maybe an international aid regimen organized by france would help slow the tide.
What is the ethnic make up of mayotte ?
why you dont ever mention Moscow imperialism, which is far from over ?
+1
Do you actually watch the channel!? This is the problem. Because I don’t mention everything bad in the world in each video I get accused of ignoring things. Just watch this week’s video on Gagauzia. This clearly shows the lingering effect of Russian and Soviet imperialism!
@@JamesKerLindsay my point is French colonialism is history , Moscow is not, and we see it in the making , Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Belarus , etc. After Ukranien war UN declarations are 100% irrelevant. UN can target the Democratic States , not the really bad guys
@@hybridforcesofthegdl3313 Have you watched the video? French colonialists continue to occupy Mayotte and dozens of other African countries
In comparison, some parts of Ukraine have voted to join Russia
Yea under guns and a illegally invasion not the greatest comparison
@@mou6854 Colonization is a legal invasion?
Unlike Russia, France protects its citizens regardless of skin color or religion. Russian army flatten all the block houses from separatist regions. I am curious if the people from Donbas will vote for Russia again.
0:21 different cultures. Western countries that try to clamp down on illegal immigrants are routinely accused of violating the human rights of the illegals. We don’t hear about such rights in other continents like Asia and Africa when countries take strong actions to protect their borders.
Great breakdown. I can understand both sides of the situation from Comoros wanting the island 'returned back' to them and to the Mayotte's right to self determination to remain apart of France proper. I do think it's important to relinquish control of previous colonial holdings but I also think the right to self determination exceeds that in importance. I also think any decisions regarding the right to self determination should be voted on and the threshold should not be a simple majority of 50% but instead a far safer super majority which in my personal opinion I think should require around 2/3 of the population.
Self-determination doesn't trump territorial integrity. The US would never allow it in a part of itself, neither would France in it's mainland. Why should Comoros and other african countries? Just because europe gets to tell them, that's why
@@FOLIPEbecause there was ni comoros before france. Theyre separate kingdoms ruled by different sultans. Since there was no common state then there is no violation of territorial integrity.. the scenario youre presenting is like if russia conquered ukraine and merged it with belarus calling it belakraine.. after a few decades russia sets belakraine free but your’re forcing the ukrainians to stay in union with belarus against their will.
The French have put an end to Arab-Muslim slavery on our island of lagoons. France protected us from the Malagasy razias and protected us from the Comorian brothers who killed us. France gave us shoes and allowed us to have beautiful houses by replacing them with our old houses made of earth. This is why France will always be at home in Mayotte! France has all the recognition of the Mahorais. Long live France ! 🇨🇵
People should have the right to self determination and if they want to remain part of France that’s their business
Do not let anybody cross illegally. Turn back them.
They want to remain part of France that’s the wise decision I come from an island surrounded by French regions but yet my island is independent and that independence isn’t worth anything just languishing in poverty. These islands aren’t worth wild nations it’s better to be part of a more developed nations! They wise to remain French!!!
Let me guess. Dominica? The only island country I can think of surrounded by France to the north and south. I thought Dominica was developing a lot within the past few years.
Sounds like the Falklands issue.
This is new to me. Thanks for sharing
Thanks, Max. There’s been surprisingly little on it in the English-language media. But Mayotte is certainly a fascinating territory, isn’t it?
No. I would not want to become poorer.
Its not colonial partition which is the issue. Its just the fact that places that are still under french control are a lot better than they would be under indigenous control. Thats why people are moving.
while I understand it to an extent because they didn't want former colonies dissintegrating. I find it funny how places have the right to self determination from some overseas powers but don't have the right to self determination from other places over seas.
Of course the colonial partition is the issue. France colonized then divided the lands, subsidizing the bits it chose to keep. Of course they are doing relatively better off than the lands colonized and then thrown away
@@FOLIPE its the population of mayotte who choose to stay french, not france who choose to keep mayotte.
and for your information comoros were a protectorat, not a colony, and they have the same level of wealth than other africans countrys, it's mayotte who is a lot wealthier because they are french and benefit from the french social system.
and another information, the only comoros unity who ever exist was a french administration creation
at the moment of independance mayotte was the poorest island, and it was the other islands who were the wealthiest. stop talking about sh*t you don't know
like you don't know it's france who abolish arabe slavetrade in comoros
@kleijnee There's no but there. Most of Africa is a colonial creation. This is EXACTLY the situation this rule was created to avoid. France partitioned the colony of Comoros which existed before the referendum. That is an absolute irrefutable fact. It is absolutely Frances's responsibility it took a part of the territory of the colony of Comoros and detached it from the rest due to the local result being different from the rest of the colony, which it didn't do for example in algeria
@@FOLIPEcomoros is a colonioal creation. You want to deconize? Fine.. return it to the way it was before colonization - 4 different sultanates. Conprende?
The French have put an end to Arab-Muslim slavery on our island of lagoons. France protected us from the Malagasy razias and protected us from the Comorian brothers who killed us. France gave us shoes and allowed us to have beautiful houses by replacing them with our old houses made of earth. This is why France will always be at home in Mayotte! France has all the recognition of the Mahorais. Long live France ! 🇨🇵
07:18 if voting was fair and in limits of EU I see no problem here but I it really smells fishy which countries and why are filling those resolutions in UN :)
France forever!
I feel like this whole situation and living standard difference between all the Comoros islands is evidence that sometimes colonization was beneficial.
Do I understand it well, that according to international law Mayotte is Comorose territory and France annexed it illegally because of referendum? What is a difference between this and Crimea then?
That's right. This is an exact copy of Crimea, so we need to impose sanctions against France and help the Comoros
@Mira Moche France never annexed Mayotte, it was already French (c) This is the best joke in recent times
This is what Mayotte wanted. France itself has become a mess due to the Migrant Crisis.
So the people of Mayotte got what they wanted. They are now part of France, so France problems are now their problems too.
Had they joined the Comoros, sure they would be poorer, but the Islands would be more similar to the Former French Antillean Islands. Basically Tax Havens and Tourist Resorts. Meaning they would actually be very stable and one of the happiest nations on Earth.
They should've embraced Independency, instead of continue to rely on France to sustain them.
I wish New Caledonia and French Polynesia would support further French integration, rather than entertain stupid ideas like complete independence.
Independence is the best france is a 3rd world nation
You forgot St. Pierre et Miquelon.
Thanks. It is one of France’s overseas territories, but isn’t a department like Mayotte.
What a shitshow... How can France to hope to mediate the territorial conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia with this happening? Ridiculous.
Always fascinating
Thank you very much!
To me. An issue with these newly independent countries is they fail because they do not know how to self-govern. It is not a matter of the quality of the people. It's a matter of not having learned the experience the expertise that is required to have a functioning government. Here's my prediction if Mayotte is forced to be incorporated into the Comoros Islands, it will become just as poor per capita as the other islands if it is not allowed to self-govern.
In the long run France may be better off to offer mainland relocation to its citizens and let the island go.
Im all for mayotte remaining apart of france cause i dont want to hear about hundreds of africans dying to get to reunion island(another french territory)
I'm from Reunion Island, we don't have African people coming (that I know off) but we have people from madagascar and people coming all the way from Sri-Lanka ...
Walace and Fortuna ??? some reason u skipped this territory ???
@kleijnee actually Ueva , Fetu or Futu and Alofi - u know there real Polynesian names not that of some Cornish sailor from hundreds of years ago . It was a comment about how they ignored it when listing Frances over seas districts .
@kleijnee Yes its a very special place being both Tongan and Samoan at the same time as being something else again . Sadly in the last days of the old war god Tu all the Alofi islanders were killed , cooked and eaten and that place can be visited on Futuna ,which is why Alofi has no people today being a garden of Futuna .A nicer place is the beautiful lake on Wallis
Nope not at all the island is poor and tired on its knees. The best industry the government find to go deep into is passport selling
I thought they were using that revenue from passports for roads and affordable housing. Damn, sorry to hear that man. It's a beautiful country.
In my opinion, the French, just like their British counterpart in the Chagos Islands, kept a piece of the Indian Ocean for the security interest. Mayotte provides France with a dominant control of trade between Africa and Asia. As Africa increases its trade with Asia, the importance of the Mayotte and Chagos Islands to monitor and hinder that trade network will become more apparent.
Why would they want to hinder it?
No really comparable, the Mayotte have had multiple chances to become either independent, or become part of Comoros and have consistently voted to remain a part of France. Chagosian people however were completely removed from their home islands, had no voted on independence or joining another country and have no power to determine their future.
@@theinternetofrandomthings7796 The question is not about chances for independence or becoming part of Comoros, but the splitting of a legitimate country for their self-interest. Mayotte was the capital of the Comoros. It's like the British providing independence to Ireland and keeping Dublin and Northern Ireland. The West complain about Russia's invasion of Crimea and part of Eastern Ukraine, but this is even worst.
@@marrs1013 I am sure you are aware of the ongoing trade war between China and the USA. China is Africa's largest trading partner, and any political conflict between China and the West will have a direct impact on the China and Africa trade route. The UK, France and the USA all have a strong military presence on those islands.
@@sulaak
So what they gonna do? Sink Chinese trade ships? Do you hear such incidents?
If they're breaking rules why should france care about them? If their own government isn't. I will say illegal immigration is very contested topic especially with humans rights group reaction
When did France ever care?
Invading other people's country and stay there illegally isn't a human right. Sorry to break it down to you.
No. Human rights are human rights. These are still human beings and deserve to be treated humanely.
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes. Stretching that notion this far is naive and borderline infantile. Being human doesn't give the right to anybody to disrupt another human society. The world isn't a Smurf cartoon, using force is something necessary in case history and a certain number of recent events didn't point this out clearly enough.
Empires thrive when its client states produce materials that enhance Empire wealth. In the 21st century, when client states become burdensome (impoverished welfare states producing few products), the empires seek liberation from their client states.
If Mayotte wants to remain a fully integrated part of France they should shar the same rules when it comes to free movemen, the Schengen agreemen etc. Let migrants go on to Europe if they want. Many European countries has a deficit of labor force.
People in Mayotte are not against the free movement of migrants. Nevertheless, our country didn't want. Paris disagree this idea. 😢😭
I'm sorry, I completely disagree whether de-invasion's been successful or not, never abolishing slavery and colonialism, but just changing faces, there are still tens of millions of slaves in the world, and another issue is that countries still have colonies like the United States or Britain or France or the Netherlands these countries still have dozens of islands as colonies with a subset of a state.
L'Hexagone, that how is known
So called Rules based order
Based on my rules and your obeys
vox populi Autodétermination of Mayotte, 1976
Je souhaite que Mayotte demeure au sein de la République française
I would like Mayotte to remain within the French Republic
17845
Je souhaite que Mayotte fasse partie de l'État comorien
I want Mayotte to be part of the Comorian state
104
thank you for respecting the free choice of Mahorais
Interesting video professor! While much attention is given to the US and UK's distant territories, France's non-European lands are quite a bit bigger in size and in their scale of integration with Metropolitan France. I'm of the opinion that existing outside the English language media sphere has something to do with this.
P.S.: I was not aware that one of France's overseas territories was so close to Mozambique, and specifically embattled Cabo Delgado province. I'll have to review what involvement France has had in the counter-insurgency in Moz since 2017.
My cousin and I were just debating about the wrinkles of lasting European colonial legacies. Two major examples off the top of my head include Italy's intelligence collaboration with Somalian authorities that indirectly led to US soldiers being killed in Mogadishu. The other is the infamous sale of French weapons to the Argentinian military junta and Saddam, which were then used to fight UK and US armed forces respectively in the Falklands and Iraq.
In other news, I'll be studying for my Master's in International Affairs through Arizona State from this fall! Exciting times!!
Diversity is a strength, the people from Mayotte should accept the vibrant progress that the immigrants bring such as ethnic food... and.. well... diversity?
There is a big difference between controlled legal immigration and uncontrolled undocumented illegal immigration
😂😂😂
It seems like a lot of French people might not be aware of the Comoros' modern history, beyond its colonial past. I wanted to point out that in my opinion, Prof James Ker-Lindsay may have left out some important information due to his own western imperial biases. For example, the notorious French mercenary Bob Denard was involved in four of the 19 coup attempts that have rocked the Comoros since the islands gained independence from France in 1975. At one point, Denard was even considered the de facto leader of the Comoros, though many Comorians hold him responsible for destabilizing the islands. It's worth noting that Prof James Ker-Lindsay doesn't mention this fact
Sorry, but that had nothing to do with this! (And I was more than aware of it.) In fact, had I dwelt on the fact that Comoros has been prone to coups then you would have said that I was a Western imperialist trying to justify why Mayotte was better off outside the Comoros. I suspect you just wanted to work it in to show off. :-)
these issues complicate the unity of Europe...
Part of France AND the EU but with separate asylum and immigration policies? How the fuck is this allowed?
falklands
Not really. The Falklands is rather different. I’ve covered it in another video. Northern Ireland might be a better example.