Don't mind singers using ghostwriters, but for me it's a different story for rappers. The point of a rapper is being able to write your own lyrics. Having a ghostwriter for that defeats the purpose.
I disagree, it's like this on both ends, a singer maybe able to sing but not write, just like a rapper can rap but not write, drake isn't a writer but can deliver so well that he's massively successful, compare that with someone who can write and you've got a star, and also you have to remember that we want music we can vibe to but they want to make money and live a better life so that's what they're gonna focus on no matter how they gotta do it, hence why "ghost writers" stay hidden until exposed, I personally don't care if rappers have ghost writers or not because without them we wouldn't have some of the people who make some of our most famous songs that may have helped us thru our toughest times
This was the mindset in the 90's & early 00's. Drake's verse in Stay Scheming goes like "it feels like rap changed. There was a time it was rugged, back when if Nigga reached then it was a weapon. Now days niggas reach just to sell their records". Drake was refering to new rappers of this generation nolonger have to carry guns and shot others but instead watch for avenues to sell their records. That said, the recent rappers only care about good muzik and the public nolonger cares who wrote the lyrics or punchline. Remember everyone is doing what they're doing to feed their family.
@@mungimichael3131 I get what you are saying I'm not mad at artists using ghostwriters or doing what they have to to feed their families. I'm just saying that for me, a rapper who can't write their own bars is not a rapper to me. Whether the music is good or not, a rapper who has others write their lyrics is not a rapper imo. I'll still listen if it's good but I'm not gonna respect you as a rapper. Of course the casual rap fan won't care about ghostwriters, but real hiphop heads like me take that shit to heart. Imagine if eminem revealed he had ghostwriters write his bars for him, it will be over for him and would be the biggest news in the music industry.
@@sierrasymone7590 I have no issues with ghostwriters, just don't expect me to respect you as a rapper if you can't write your own bars. Idc how good the song is. I'm a pure hiphop head so I guess my mindset is different for the casual rap fan. Also I'm not knocking anybody tryna make money I say do what it takes to pay the bills. My only point is, don't call yourself a rapper if you can't think of your own bars.
It's crazy how many people don't realize Drake isn't just an artist anymore, he's a whole brand and has a ton of people keeping that brand going. That's why it seems like he changes his styles and flows constantly. It's the whole OVO crew and others keeping him up so that everyone keeps making money.
Drake has hundreds of people eating off him that won't let him fail. And he has used writers before but people not in the industry don't understand is every big artist colabs,your favorite producers have session players and engineers that help them.... and drake wrote a TON of songs for himself and other artists. Don't think drake isn't extremely talented
Ghostwriters being responsible for the biggest hits we have at times is something to be grateful for, SOMEBODY had to do it lol. Just wish they got proper respect in the industry instead of letting the musicians get all the fame.
They want to make a living by getting paid doing what they love without having their privacy invaded or getting chased by paparazzi. And some ghost writers who may already be a singer or rapper may want to work on other genres but are afraid of how it'll affect their image because they already built a fan base based on a certain sound and its very risky to make a drastic change of genre so they do it for somebody else without putting their name on it so people don't know it was them. Like how Tyler the Creator said "I wanted to make pop songs for artists" (idk what genre he normally does tho I don't really listen to his music but he's a hilarious guy lol)
@@tugzzcouncil485 because they write the song the label or artist pay for it they also sign paperwork giving up the rights to what they wrote. So if or when the song blows up they have 0 rights and can't sue
Whenever I was a teenager I would go straight people's essays for school for $5 to $10 a piece, $20+ for college or term papers. Ghostwriting is in literally every single industry that involves words.
No. Writing a song is a skill and talent, but that’s it. Putting pen to the sheet and creating lyrics. The ARTIST is the energy that brings those lyrics to life. The style, cadence, voice still belongs to the artist. That’s why they are ghostwriters. They aren’t good or appealing enough to make their own music come to life. They can only write. So they don’t get all the credit. Plus many ghostwritten lyrics and songs are just skeletons that the artist uses to make it their own by REWRITING it. Ghostwriters are not the most amazing people in music. They are only a piece of the puzzle to make a good record
Ghostwriting isn’t inherently bad, it’s only when artist deny or won’t admit that they use them. The vast majority of music consumers don’t care who’s writing these songs anyways. So it’s like, why lie and take credit for someone else’s work??
Because if people knew that most of the talent is coming from someone else then that someone else would start to want more money. Greed always triumph over human decency for some odd reason
I could never respect you or any Rapper/Emcee if you got ghostwriters will NEVER & could NEVER That’s a Damn Shame smh!!! Used to listen to Drake but stopped the moment he was exposed using ghostwriters!!! Like come on for real what if people Said Biggie & Tupac had ghostwriters I can’t even imagine that bullshit could be true! & I don’t even understand how anybody could buy anybody’s music & continue to buy their when they know that RAPPER/ EMCEE didn’t write shit!!! ITS JUST CHEATING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR $$$ WHEN I FEEL THAT RAPPER/EMCEE Doesn’t deserve to make any $$$ @ all!!! My opinion cuz like how can you really say your the best or greatest when you never did shit to contribute those sells goin up!!!!
The person who wrote the song should always have some royalty rights, even just a small %. If the artist wants to pretend they wrote it then fine (Drake can be as fake as he wants, but legally the actual author should get properly paid. I liked the part where Sarah M's writer won his lawsuit.
I do think it’s wild how you can sell a song for a couple grand and it can turn into such a huge hit, but 🤷🏻♀️ sorry boutchya. Maybe ghostwriters should look into that cause it seems like a pretty profitable business.
@@rotty1019 unless you’re a ghost writer… in which case you’re paid & usually sign an NDA. If you know your worth upfront no matter how bad you want it there’s a good chance you can make big money in ghost writing. Song writing, where your name is plastered everywhere probably gets a % of sales & also gets the publicity/having their name put out there. If that makes sense? I think some people don’t want all the fame & drama, but they’re excellent at their craft.
@not a human that's the point either sell your hard work and go unrecognized for your work for some chum change compared to what song will probably make, that'll atleast give you some connections in idustry and that's important Or, remain a sound cloud artist who's future potential to blow up is less than 0%
You should explore ghost singing/vocal blending. There’s so many popular singers who hardly perform on their own records and take credit for the work of the backing vocalists.
@@DP-mv7ph Britney’s case is really difficult because when she was under her conservatorship (had her basic human rights stripped away) her father and team hired someone to record her whole 2013 album (Britney Jean) because she didn’t want to record it as she was being overworked, drugged, and controlledat the time and was trying to stand her ground by refusing. But the “ghost singer” was literally in on it and agreed to do it and was very excited to do it which I think was wrong because they all knew this was going to be done against Britney’s will and that she was being abused so I feel no sympathy for the ghost singer. The ghost writer also claimed to be a huge Britney fan which makes no sense to me because why would you basically work with your “idol” abusers?? Idk it’s weird.
I think this makes a lot of sense, especially with the "their earlier music was better" phenomenon. A lot of unique and thought provoking artists become formulaic after signing up to a label. They start sounding like everyone else bc they're using the same writers as everyone else.
Yup. Exactly. All because the label wants to invest in what they know already works. It’s got outta hand at this point. Every label has their own version of each archetype of rapper.
Frank Sinatra is a poor example in this context, he sang a lot of what are called "standards" in jazz terminology, classic songs from the 20s-40s by various songwriters that singers and instrumentalists will do their own versions and improvise on. He never tried to pass off as if he composed the songs like the other examples in the vid. I enjoyed the video dont get me wrong, just wanted to point that out
@@ExeErdna I would describe them more as 'renditions', because the songs he sung were open to interpretation in line with jazz performance. Sinatra singing Summertime is different from Ella Fitzgerald for example. but do you mean having someone ghostwrite for you or or being a ghostwriter yourself?
@@B7ackTruth think you missed the point man, Frank never masqueraded like he wrote the songs that he sung, obv teams of writers are in other genres besides hiphop I never said anything to the contrary. Jazz is an entirely different context when it comes to songs, every great jazz singer in history all have diferent versions of the same tunes
ghostwriting in rap and singing is different. in singing your talent is your range, ability to carry a note, tone etc. this is why MJ and Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande having ghostwriters doesn’t matter much. but in RAP. your lyrics, creativity, delivery etc. is paramount and to have someone else do a bull if the work in making your lyrics takes away from the authenticity and the confidence the average listener has in your ability to be creative and tell your story over a beat.
Exactly. In singing, I actually expect that a song is most likely not written by the artist actually singing it, so it really doesn't matter. But in rap, maybe because of the history of hip hop and its roots being about personal life experiences/struggles and/or thoughts, you expect the artist to be writing his/her own stuff.
There's a few rappers who write there own stuff all major label rappers durk youngboy drake 21 savage migos etc don't write. Which is why I mainly still listen to underground rap
I feel like collaborative music is dope as fuck and should be encouraged. If someone else wrote the lyrics but you're the more skilled performer, then that's fine. Just own it and give credit where it's due. The only problem I see is people taking the credit for shit they didn't do.
As an industry songwriter, I can tell you firsthand that most artists don’t have the time to consistently come up with hits. They’re traveling, doing shows, club appearances, shooting videos, photo shoots, recording and perfecting songs etc. Labels give them a deadline and they need heat by the deadline. Truth is, to perform at a high level you need a team of ppl to help you rise and stay at the top.
@@GreenEnvy. no. They’re still artists. They have talent and no one can take that from them. Using a hook or a cadence from another artist to craft a song doesn’t make them any less of an artist. It makes them smart
@@cooperdeniro9189 Would you call yourself a cook if you don't cook? Then why should someone be a music artist if they don't write the music or create the music? Having no time is not an excuse for these fake "artists."
@@GreenEnvy. yes, I would. Head chefs in restaurants don’t cook everything. I’m not making an excuse for them, I’m just saying that our sole jobs as songwriters is to come up with song ideas & help the artists craft their songs. We have the time to do it, we’re not doing 6 shows a week, doing press runs, etc. Once they start getting hot, very few artists can keep that sort of momentum going. Also the artists do have their own ideas and we help them tell the story better. If Kevin Gates didn’t write the hook for 2 phones & Travis Scott didn’t write the hook for pickup the phone, yet they wrote their own verses & compensated the writer, should they not own the song? Keep in mind that a LOT of songwriters only want to do what we love, write songs and have them be heard by the world (while also getting paid of course) Rap culture should embrace it more like every other genre. Maybe we wouldn’t have so many rappers falling off after 1 album 🤷🏾♂️
About 10 years ago I downloaded many tracks from a website. There were often samples, demo etc. you could hear a song months, even years before they were released….by another artist. I remember Rihanna‘s „te amo“ which was written by James Fauntleroy. He produced a demo of this songs with these exact lyrics. I heard his version first and fell in love with it. A year later Rihanna released her version of it, even with lyrics taylored to a man singing to a woman. She just used a girl in the video…and I was mad that James Fauntleroy didn‘t get the credits as a producer and singer for it…
One of the reasons I really like Eminem's music. He writes his own stuff. And you can tell he writes it all himself, his stuff has a personality that nobody else can replicate.
Eminem wouldn’t be were he’s at without dr Dre. I feel like when people try and call out ghostwriting and act like writing alone is what makes a good rapper is crazy
In Egypt we have writers, not ghost writers. They're insanely respected, always mentioned and referenced by the artist, usually praised by the artist for their beautiful lyrics. Song writers are famous here and they really can be if we stop treating them as ghosts
@@slimjimmy4070 here's the thing tho, did he use to write his lyrics at the beginning of his career? How heavily did he rely on ghostwriters? How many songs did he actually produce? There's so many questions that I have when it comes to Kanye, because, deep down, I want to believe that he wrote and produced many of his songs but I'm not sure anymore
@@andresduques2013 Here's the thing. It's common for producer's not to write their own lyrics. Kanye has said he uses writers so it's no secret. I have never heard anyone question if Kanye produced his early music and with all the money and fame he's had someone would of came out to claim credit for his work if they really produced it for him. There is footage of Kanye making his beats but there is no footage of Drake ever writing any music or any footage of Drake freestyling without a phone in his hand.
@@slimjimmy4070 kanye hasn’t made beats solo since mbdtf. He gets other producers to make instruments and samples and oversees it more how someone like Quincy jones would’ve directed/produced musicians.
We should all fr appreciate every single person that supports us. Even if it’s only like 50 streams on a new song or vid, that’s 50 ppl who took the time out of their day to support the art 💯💙
The guy you’re referring to who says “we the best” is absolutely full of himself. To the point where half his show was him doing call-and-response with his own name for 30-50% of the show.
when eminem first came out he was called modern day sheakspeare and i remember reading that he was praised by a nobel laureate, so imagine if it came out that he didn’t wrote stan… that would shatter his whole image. it may not matter for other genres but its important for rap definetly. like just credit as co-writers at least bro there’s nothing wrong with that?
If youre a singer who didn't write their own song, you could still be an amazing singer. But I think for a rapper, the NUMBER 1 crime is coming off as insincere or inauthentic. I think there are definately rappers who's image really hinges on it all being their own voice.
It's definitely DJ Khaled. His whole image about being #1 is built on that huge level of support. It's why he got so mad when he lost to Igor, he's been gassed up and then lost when he had a full support team behind him.
Ehh, who cares if singers don't write their music? Their instrument is their voice. Rappers on the other hand should absolutely be writing their own bars.
Ghostwriting is sometimes also a collaborative thing where the artist will change some words or write a portion of the song sometimes it’s not split between writers for malicious reasons
See, this was what I was asking about originally. Some people say this IS ghostwriting others say this ISN’T ghostwriting can someone clarify as of today what we consider it? I think changing a word here or there isn’t… but if you’re sitting down and helping write ANY PART OF THE SONG other than that yeah you helped write the song. So not giving credit where credit is due is purposeful & disrespectful.
Yup. This was especially true in the 60s where the “Wrecking Crew” was used as session musicians. I’ve heard so many hours of session tapes where during the course of the session , so many suggestions (or happy accidents as well) would occur that by the time the song was finished hours later, it sometimes will be a completely different song than before, cause sometimes a session musician would say something like an idea and they’d run with it. These days they’d have been given credit . That doesn’t mean they “ghost wrote “ . Again, it’s a different beast compared to rap.
@@ProGamer-lk9qw Did you read the OP or anything we were talking about before leaving this comment about why a ghostwriter is called a ghostwriter… bc that wasn’t that question?
Back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, when majority of musicians actually knew how to play instruments and had to write, sing and play their own music? Yea, those were true artists.
It takes a team to produce masterpieces just like it takes a team to produce a movie. At the end of the day, it’s the artist that needs to have the expertise to make a song work.
It’s important to remember the idea that major artists write their own material is a relatively new phenomenon, like you mentioned most of the artists around Sinatra’s time and well before him all sang songs written by separate composers. It’s only been since around the 90’s that it became a thing that an artist has to do it all to be seen as legitimate
If you have a ghost writer, then that's fine. Most of the time you'll find people who can't write a bar for their life or have no clue how to construct punchlines, but if you give them a book on rhymes, they'd have a godly voice, flow or cadence that make it fit. Others are the opposite, whether they can't flow, or stay on beat for their life, but when you hear the lyrics, it hits different. My thing is, DON'T CALL YOURSELF A TOP LYRICIST IF YOU DON'T WRITE YOUR LYRICS. You fan call yourself one of the top MCs since you are known to *M*ove *C*rowds. But a *LYRICIST*?! Leave that to the true wordsmiths out here
@@1337-i3v move crowds, mic controller, either ways, when your voice is on the record, EVERYONE listens. That's something you can claim and I'd respect it. But calling yourself the best lyricist. . . Nah. Mic controller is a new one for me, thanks for that man! Maybe that is the real definition. Idk personally!
I often think about my favorite artist as I think of companies. They deligate and curate. Which is still a skill to me. Still can be disappointing, but I still believe that
being a "star" and being a great songwriter are two very different, distinct things. Having both of these qualities at such a high level is a lot more rare then people like to think. The way i see it is being an artist in the music industry is so much more than just making good songs. Some people are great at writing but have no charisma or "star" power, and for others its the complete opposite. They AREN'T mutually exclusive and having just one of those things isn't enough to make you "famous" People have made entire careers in the music industry just through ghost producing, these are people who otherwise would likely see nothing from their hard work. If a ghost writer/producer is getting paid for their work, there's literally no issues with it. Fans often have this unrealistic idea about the capabilities of their favorite artists
And this is why I love The Weeknd! He writes all of his songs and sure, sometimes, he works with others when writing, but unlike Drake, Abel writes his own music. Hell, Abel even wrote several songs for Drake's, "Take Care" album. Lady Gaga also writes her own music and both Abel & Gaga never lip sing, either. Both fantastic artists who are quite literally mega-titans in the industry!
You mentioned Producers in the beginning… I have a group of friends that work in music and a few got signed with Mike Will and their jobs was just to make beats and if the lead producers liked them they would present them to their artists. That’s why I learned it’s important, as a producer, to create a sound signature so you can prove it was you if you need to.
Demi Lovatos song Anyone was written by a beautiful woman about no one listening to HER and Demi used it to show people how her using drugs was her feeling like she didn’t have anyone listening but I think the original writer should also release her own version
The reason it's frowned upon in Hip Hop is cause most rap artists solely credit themselves or speak on how they didn't need anyone to make it. Or when they receive awards for work they didn't do and credit themselves and not mention who was really doing the work. And hip hop prides itself on authenticity. Hence why even Em was like I'd just stop rapping if I needed a ghostie despite how well known it is that Dr Dre uses them including Drake once upon a time
The entire concept of ghostwriting is so heartbreaking to me. All those talented ass people with nothing to show for it, not even a credit. I don't know how the credited artists can feel good about that.
Couldn’t be me. Something about making ur own songs from scratch feels amazing. And being a producer knowing how much work it takes to create beats at times. Definitely couldn’t imagine not crediting someone you worked with. Ghost writing shouldn’t be a thing. Period.
@@denial1004 It's because they grew up without knowing a broader range of music. They accept any poppy trash thrown out. Yet they wonder why more rappers are coming up as frauds, broke and dropping off.
I didn’t know bout Mozart ghostwriting for people! Beautifully done vid, I’m not gonna lie, I think it takes away a lil if a rapper has a ghostwriter, especially if all he raps about is how good he is on the mic
I am a ghostwriter- like, that’s not my main profession😂 but I’m a writer which obviously is hard to make lucrative, so I do a lot of ghost writing and I’ll say two things: 1) It’s not just music and books. I ghost wrote an apology for a TH-camr. I swear on my life, signed an NDA (which may be expired by now but I’m not gonna give up his name because he’s a genuinely nice person) but it was one of the only apologies I’ve ever seen that unanimously everybody accepted. I just told the truth. Kept it to facts. Imagine that 😂. 2) don’t feel bad for the ghost writers. As I said, whether it’s a single line or an entire book, we have to sign an NDA and usually some other contracts as well saying that someone else is going to take responsibility for our writing. So we know. Now are there some who probably don’t want to do it and have to do because they need the money? Yeah probably. But that’s the way the world works unfortunately. Sometimes having a name is all you need to get people to read your writing… And it’s unfortunate as a ghost rider when someone else is getting labeled as a gifted writer and you’re sitting there like “IM the gifted writer” 😂. But my point is it’s not anything sneaky or shady. You know going in.
PS- as for the TH-camr… I’m not only ghost wrote the apology but I wrote him a little separate thing of instructions to tell him how to make it seem like it was kind of off the top of his head. I also made a key like (whatever) “///“ means take a 2 second pause and look away from the camera. He did it great though. And don’t let this make you angry… The reason he was being attacked was not fair to him to begin with… So it was more like he wanted to explain what actually happened while being articulate because he knew it was his only chance and that if he didn’t do a good job he would lose everyone believing him. He gave me $500 (I offered to do it for free). And then the day after everyone was writing nice comments as replies and saying sorry to HIM etc he sent me more money as a thank you. It’s a gamer. Ok I don’t wanna be mean. He really is a good guy. Rich AF though so I didn’t feel bad about the $ lol. Did offer to do it free though- bc I felt he was being attacked unfairly too. But he wouldn’t have it. So he paid me thru cash app after he read what I wrote (I’d already signed paper work so he couldn’t just take it and run lol). Sorry to comment on my own post I just realized that the way I wrote it was only gonna make people have questions lol
Part of the music experience is connecting the artist to the art. Hearing their story, their joy, their pain, their accomplishments and their sorrows. If none of that comes from them then it is an inauthentic listening experience. Like hearing someone read someone else’s autobiography. If ghost writing is the future of the industry along with streaming instead of buying albums then all music should be anonymous
8:00 DJ Khaled doesn’t even claim that he produces his songs he only managing the hole song so it can be the best it can be. So it would be pretty unecessary to call him out for ghostproducing because he credits his producers he work with.
I dated a ghostwriter. I left that relationship with all my illusions and favs ruined.he was HIGHLY secretive but he would drop clues here and there and about who didn’t write their own rhymes.
I was so disappointed to discover Joji's "Glimpse of Us" wasn't even written by him. It's crazy how even those you are convinced write their own letters usually have a team of 4+ people helping them write it.
I mean, did you like it? He had people help with his videos, it's not a stretch to think he had help with his music, especially after he had actual money.
I probably am wrong, but I think glimpse of us was his only ghost written song because charlie puth was originally supposed to perform it. Again, I'm not sure if I'm correct.
I've come to accept that rappers use ghostwriters but I gotta say that I'm not as much of a fan of individual rappers as I was in the past when we thought they all wrote for themselves. This is the thing...A rapper's skill is his penmanship. A singer's skill is their vocal ability. That's why it's accepted when singers use writers, and why most singers admit it and/or give credit.
In order to be a Hip Hop GOAT for me and considered a top lyricist you have to write your own stuff. But it doesnt bother me if the music is still good. And Joey BADASS wrote Rockstar by Post Malone. I was mind blown to find that out.
You’re not gonna like the reality that every rapper has had help in some form. Whether it’s their style, lines, voice, no artist has ever made it without a team.
@@SpliffyHusk thats just not true lol. Sure they may have people around that influence and support the artist, but not every artist is getting direct lyrics or references.
Facts, like you dont need to wrote the WHOLE album alone, but you need to write at least some. If you're a singer, we can focus on tone, range and stuff like that. But for a rapper, you have your delivery and your lyrics. Some peoples music clearly doesn't stand up when you take one of those pillars out. Most peoples' first album took years for them to create. When someone gets super famous quickly they're immediately expected to top their last album and I think you MUST have a team to work under that kind of time pressure and have it be good like your first one that took years
you can pretty much bet your life savings. 90% of the shit on the radio, of any genre, wasn't written by the person performing it. it's especially true with any pop music. Pop exists by using teams of people, to create the perfect songs that will guaranteed be hits.
Performers have SONGWRITERS not GHOSTWRITERS. Two completely different things. Ghost writers get paid a one time fee and unmentioned whereas Songwriters get royalties and credits.
Sinatra was a SINGER not a songwriter. He’s called “The Voice” for his talent in that regard. He, like most jazz/blues artists, covered Popular Standards (classics). Ignorance IS bliss but knowledge can SUCK.
Well the one thing about being a music producer is that doesn't really mean you made the beat. It could simply mean that you organized the song and sourced the talent and then put everything together which is what DJ Khaled does and and talks about himself. This is includes getting a pianist to come and play a melody, sourcing background singers, beat makers, mixers, and someone to master the music. It's similar to the term producer when used for film and tv. Just because your film producer doesn't mean you wrote the movie, edited it, ect.
That's like finding out that your favorite TH-camr doesn't make his own videos. Got a whole team and a new voice over for the channel. Ghost TH-camr 👻 😱
I remember I worked for a marketing agency and we were gonna make an ad that use sounds products by the product and make a track out of it, then partner with a top 10 DJ at the time to have his name and credits slapped on it for brand value, and then have the ad be a collab between the product and the DJ. Taught me all I needed to know. Also have a friend under Martin Garrix' label who's been ghost producing for people in the edm industry for some time. Really changed my outlook. Idm it so much. some people (like myself) aren't cut for the stage life, so they make music for people who are. Allows art to still make it into the world. Plus pop is primarily entertainment. But when it's a rapper (who imo are poets who use lyrics and music as their medium) who doesn't write their own lyrics i feel cheated. (sry for being vague, NDA's n stuff)
Man this shit goes alot deeper than i thought. I knew of certain "Rappers" who used them but never realised how many of them actually are. As for the "DJ" its very obvious but for the EDM ones selling off full finished tracks to market as your own i have no words, im honestly in shock.
You don't understand how creativity works. It's a job like any other job out there. There are better people at it than others, do obviously you want the better ones to work for you. And honestly, everyone seems to think they are so different, unique and special. Every single human in this planet has had the same type of experiences: love problems, money struggles, relationship problems, to come from a dysfunctional family or a broken one, to struggle to find success, to search for a way of expression, mental health issues, self esteem issues, the death of somebody you care for... these experiences are universal.
My question/deal w/ ‘ghost writing’ is when they’re saying ‘we’re sure he used a ghost writer’ but they’re referring to the input of other artists listening to the record before it’s released (if that makes sense?) like Cole & Bas working together in the same studio & if Bas was like ‘hey man why don’t you try this’ or vice versa - is that ‘ghost writing’ or just artists working together throwing out ideas? I mean was Wu Tang supposed to put every single member down as a ghost writer for each of their own verses just bc they were in the studio together & said “YEAH MAN THAT’S IT DO THAT!”. This is what really confuses me. The way Post did Joey was whack, man still doesn’t get the recognition he deserves. Then gets hated on for doing the ghost writing 💀
Nah you can bounce ideas off of each other, ghostwriting is different, it’s more shady. I’ve been hanging with friends making music and I can be like “nah, do it like this.” or “You should say this instead.” Friends have done it for me. It’s like my friend makes a sculpture and I took some sandpaper to help smooth it out. They did the work. No one is doing anything truly alone we’re all inspired by stuff but at the same time we’re really the ones making our stuff ghostwriting is just taking credit for someone else’s work. Basically a legal version of plagiarism.
@@jacklightyear5869 Okay! That’s what I thought, because I would think all artists (for the most part) would say ‘let me run this past you’ or ‘check this out’ just because you’re normally in the studio with at least one other person. I feel like A LOT of people are getting ‘ghost writing’ where someone else writes the song & gets zero credit confused with collabs or just people throwing ideas around. I mean if someone else wrote part of the song/beat & they aren’t given credit… they’re a ghost in my opinion. If they said ‘I like that, keep it’ nah
Elton John has had most of his lyrics written by Bernie Taupin. They are one of the most successful writing duos in the history of Rock n Roll. And Elton has always been very open about their relationship.
The problem with a rapper having a ghost writer is that traditionally rap is about the skills the rapper possesses. You can’t rap about how good you are at rapping if you can’t do the most basic and necessary part.
rapping isn't solely about that, there is voice, flow, charisma, and command on the mic, what happens if you had all that but you lack the writing part? you could try to improve it, yes, but you won't be as good, so what then?
@@Xxh0mEr0xX agree to disagree. While it requires more than just writing if you can’t rhyme why would you ever become a rapper. Bubble gum rap is radio trash. I laugh in your face if you tell me you’re a rapper but someone else writes for you. That makes you a boy band at most.
@@Xxh0mEr0xX perhaps it’s a generational thing. Where I come from rapping starts in neighborhoods while people stand in circles trying to out do the last. If you can’t do it on your own you wouldn’t stand there. No right or wrong at the end of the day but I personally can’t respect a rapper who can’t write his/her own. Backstreet Boys could all sing and dance but I don’t consider them artist. For me art is about creating from with in.
I feel like Hip Hop is in a class of its own. I don’t really care if pop rap uses ghostwriters, I don’t consider that music hip hop, its just rap or pop. Examples of this are like Drake, Post Malone, Cardi B, Snoop Dog, and 99.9 percent of any rap related music on the radio. When it comes to Hip Hop, there’s a purity aspect of the art form that is more important than just making money or getting on the pop charts. True Hip Hop MC’s are the only one’s who can ever be considered G.O.A.T’s, and that nearly automatically excludes anything you hear on the radio.
EDIT: Just finished watching. I wish I knew you were making this vid. I coulda put you on a few other insane tactics that are used. This is the TH-cam comment section so no one will give a shit or believe me but I can also be somewhat anonymous with this weird flex… I was supposed to have a writing credit on a MAJOR 2015 R&B song. I got an offer of a small monetary sum plus a writing credit or I could take a bigger sum with no credit but industry hook ups. I took the large sum for no credit as I thought the song would never be a single anyway. The song also ended up in a lawsuit due to a sample used. That being said I started in the industry as an audio engineer. The amount of trading between artists and how often they use writers is way more common than you’d ever think. The deeper level of it is the production side. A lot of your favorite artists aren’t creators. They’re known because they’re naturally good in front of the camera. They’re easy to market. Labels and managers will pick someone who is already naturally good in front of a camera or photogenic over someone that is an amazing creative. Someone has to be so unbelievably talented and consistent in order to make it as an actual artist they’ll put marketing behind. Too much risk vs reward. A lot of your favorite producers also have their own lil sweatshops and groups tasked with giving them melodies, loops, etc. It works because a lot of the actual creators don’t want the acknowledgment or the clout. They’re happy with getting a bundle here and there and letting the clout chasers be in front of the camera. A good writer that actually ended up as a decent artist is Saint Jhn. He gets nearly no marketing. An absolutely amazing writer (wrote for Drake and got him his break into the industry) is Nickelus F. He actually had a deal at one point but kept getting put on the back burner as his music was considered too niche. He went independent. CyHi is a great lyricist. He doesn’t get the marketing. A lot of this is because they’re giving up a lot of their best stuff. The amount of producers I’ve seen give rappers hooks or concepts they’ve had for their beats is also pretty insane. I always said I’d write a book on my industry experiences but TH-cam channels like this one do some AMAZING legwork! Solid content!
Actually its public information that DJ Khaled doesn't produce any of his songs. He is just a promotor who links the singers and beat makers, and releases it under his name. Great video tho!
For me I see ghost writing like this, you should at least start off writing your own stuff but once you working on a album and just at this stalemate of nothing new that’s when I feel like yeah it’s okay to get some ghost writers on the album to finish it.
I remember a song that was a huge hit: “The Energy” by Audiovent. It was very VERY popular and could have started a great career for Audiovent (I dont think they had another hit after The Energy). The thing about this particular song was it was featured in a news broadcast. This broadcast talked about the writer of the song and he wasn’t in the band. I will never forget that image of the true writer, sitting behind his desk, writing, and he was singing the song quietly to himself. He sounded nearly like the lead singer. The news talked about “ghost writers” and who in the industry used them. It was pointed out that there has been quite a few times where someone had a good song and attempted to start a music career but for one reason or another, it didn’t work out for them so they would try to find someone to sing their song. That’s what happened with The Energy by Audiovent. That’s what happened with a few songs. I know of others but I can’t recall the titles of said songs nor who sang them. But there IS a very famous musician who often wrote songs for other artists. Prince. Yes, he was a very famous musician but on the occasion he would write a song and give it to an artist to sing. You’d be surprised how many famous people wrote hit songs especially when they aren’t musicians. There are a few videos on TH-cam that covers these. Edit: Okay this is a major problem for me. Not that artists use ghostwriters, I get it. Artists are extremely busy and don’t often have the time to write songs. Fine. But what bothers me about the ghostwriting industry is the fact that they don’t earn any royalties! Like what!? I mean I knew this happened. I watched a video not too long ago about a very famous producer (frankly I had never heard of him but I heard his music) who I believe has worked with Post Malone, but it sucks that they mostly don’t get any credit but outside of the money they get upfront, that’s it. That seems EXTREMELY unfair. Sounds a LOT like ghost singers. There is a VERY famous case about a singer who got shafted by the music industry. If it strikes your interest look up C+C Music Factory and what they did to the real female vocalist. It’s pretty messed up. Apparently the production company approached this already famous singer (She was one of the singers who sang “It’s Raining Men!”) and told her that they were going to create a new band and asked her to join. She was ecstatic and agreed. They had her sing the back up vocals and recorded her. She asked them when she was going to meet the other musicians in the group and they told her soon. She was sitting at home when she heard a familiar beat playing on the tv. She turned to see C+C Music Factory singing one of their hits. She was floored. That was HER VOICE coming out of a woman who was NOT HER. She tried to contact the record label and they kept giving her the run around. In the meantime C+C released another single, yet another smash hit for the band. That’s when she had enough and SUED. That’s when the sh** hit the fan. They found out that this particular vocalist had been featured in a few bands… but not herself. They put her voice behind other women. I cannot remember the other bands but I know C+C Music Factory was one. When it came out how the record company treated this veteran of the music industry (remember I said she already had a popular hit song), it took some time but she eventually settled. In the aftermath, all the groups that featured her voice ended up disappearing from the disgrace. Now when you look up the songs that she was featured in, she is credited but man… PAY THESE PEOPLE! Sure, you paid them to write the song… but if it becomes a mega hit… PAY THEM MORE! It’s not that freaking hard!
This happens in the book industry, too. Then authors want to claim it’s the ghost writer’s fault when their books are found to have plagiarised material in them. 🙊
Sup Matty I knew about ghost writers but I didn't realise, how big of a industry it is. Or how ghost writing works, so I appreciate you giving a insight into ghost writing. 😎💯🙌
Avicii was such an amazing producer and wrote a lot of songs not just for his track but also wrote stuff that were used by major artists, sky full of stars by Coldplay is a notable one, you can find him in the studio creating it with Chris from Coldplay. Its a great clip to watch how he built the song and continued to and Chris couldn't believe how good he was.. Sadly he committed suicide
I used to feel like a hack because I rapped but didn't know how to make beats. My dad would be like "You can't call yourself a 'musician' and not even know how to play an instrument." But I wrote 100% of all my own lyrics. Hooks and verses. Now the industry is filled with so many talentless hacks posing as artists it's ridiculous. But it does make me appreciate my own talent a lot more.
Bro, I used to think in the same way but because I don't have money to by instruments or mics and when I have money I have to help my parents. I was like "I have the idea but I just need instruments". Lucky for us, there are websites where you can use instruments digitally and also sometimes they have like A LOT of sounds. Like say you have a sound in mind you describe it "piano, dark, G bemol minor, 96 bpm" and it gives you a lot of options with the key words you've wrote. That's how I make beats, I try to find a sound that it's similar to my brain and I change the note and the time. And little by little you build a song because then you are like "this piano needs acustic jazz drums" and you write what you're looking for and sometimes you find it (sometimes you don't and it's like "okay... let's think about another instrument" or "okay let's play the notes I want on the digital instruments". IT'S AWESOME, you should use it. You can produce there too and (like I said i don't have much money) you can make yourself sound like you are singing on a mic when you are just using your phone. It's like Reaper or Adobe Audition but with the sounds that help you if you don't have mics or instruments available. GIVE IT A TRY!!
I’m so glad I was into metal when I was a teenager. It really would have made me sour if I found out a song I really connected with, wasn’t even created by the person I’m listening to.
People get so mad about ghost writers. Art is rarely ever created without another persons influence. Even smaller artists will send their songs to their friends and shit to make sure it’s good before they put it out. All writers should be credited of course but this idea that if an artist has someone assist them in writing a song then they’re not really an artist is fucking wild
I can safely say, I've written every word , played every instrument and produced every track myself. I will write songs for others on the rosta , but not as a ghost . Full disclosure or nothing. . Big up to all y'all who put your own work in too.
Imo, ain't a problem with ghost writers or having tracks written for you, that being said, I personally take issue with artists that try to make it seem as if they are better than that or above it when in reality they themselves got a whole team working for them and attempt to make it seem as if the situation is any but what it really is. In a genre that prides itself on authenticity its rather paradoxical. Just be up front about it, if you write your own stuff great, if you are just a vocalist and don't then don't make it seem like you do since it'll just be more backlash and damage control to try and sway the narrative Idk just my personal take on it but before long I doubt it will matter at all with the way things seem to be going 🤷♂️
The realness is, using a ghost writer with a non disclosure is misrepresenting both art and artist to the fans. Why be ashamed? Rythym and blues singers don't hide credits. The singing most times in itself reveals actual talent. Spitting bars on beat, in a specific cadence, adding ad libs, and live performances also take talent. If we gave props for that, as fans, maybe this wouldn't be a thing at all.
its funny one of my favorite artist is a ghost writer and she wrote many of my favorite songs from other artist as well. her name is Kirby. She has an amazingly beautiful song called Loved by you and she wrote Ye's only one and rhianna's 4,5, seconds among other great songs. The argument that not everyone is not meant to be vocalist or that not everyone is not meant to be a lyricist is bullcaca to me because in most cases it just boils down to monetizing clout. Ghost writers most oftenly just don't have clout. Many are actual great vocalist and actually studied music but because they are not well known they're music don't really have the potential to sell as much as they'd get paid for writing for an establish artist theoretically.
I took care of a very elderly man, (rest his soul now.)But I remember he told me he helped write a very famous country song. 2 years later I actually googled it and was never been able to find his name to the song. Either he was a ghost writer or a senile old man. But he was always singing and make it on the spot. I was going to school for music and he told me if you don’t have the ability to make a tune or come up with the words it might not be for you.
Ghostwriting in pop music is fine just for the simple fact that its more of how you sing or your ability to hit notes, you can have the best ghost writer but if you can’t hit notes you’ll never be a pop star. Ghostwriting in rap is a no no
Buddy of mine lived off of Ghost Producing for 1 1/2 years to help his family while his music career was in its infancy, granted he didn't give the artists his good shit. Wouldn't shock me if this turns predatory, since some artists feel like they have to ghost produce or write to survive while not furthering their own careers
Well it already is and my conspiracy theory on why labels insist on ghostwriters is to control the performers and keep them dependent on the labels it’s a shady practice for sure
There’s an interview with an artist named Saint Jhn where he talks about writing camps. Basically a team of writers/producers get together and make hits (essentially). But it’s crazy to see people who go unnoticed but had some major record credits. One example is this dude Bobby Raps (if you know Corbin aka Spooky Black you know him) who has wrote for Beyoncé… Beyoncé dude… like dude is talented af. But Beyoncé? It’s wild. But I love that you brought up the actual meaning of a ghostwriter. Cuz most these artists buy songs and there’s been many cases where they come out on livestreams or interviews saying “that was supposed to be my song” n all that.
@@vabby2k the couch potato project he did with Corbin is dope if you’re a fan of Corbin. But the Mark album is pretty solid to me. I think there’s like a whole little documentary on him from when he was basically a kid. Been in it for a while now
Nothing wrong with networking. Some people are performers and not writers. Music is also a universal experience and can mean something different to each person. Just cuz a rapper doesn’t write their own lyrics doesn’t mean they can’t express it and make it a real human experience. My issue is don’t gas yourself up and promote yourself as a “genius” or as a greater artist than someone who is considered unsuccessful; cuz there’s always someone better than you. Remember how lucky you are to be making a living off your art. Just be honest and give credit where credit is due.
There are rock bands that actually have ghost PLAYERS. On the recordings, it's not even them playing parts of a song. KISS went as far as to have musicians under the stage playing some of the music during live concerts.
One of my favorite artist is just transparent about it and he supports and features the song writer, I think this is a very good way of including it. I get more real good music!
As for DJ Khaled. As far as I know, he never claimed to make the beats. I was just always under the impression he paid for a beat, paid for the features, and just helped orchestrate the whole thing. Pretty dope concept, I think - especially if it’s gonna be a hit, which it usually is.
The problem to me in instances when the fans feel betrayed that their idol wasn't the one to come up with the words they relate so badly is in the fans themselves. If you engage with the music itself instead of worshiping the personalities behind it you'll have no problem appreciating the end result for what it is.
I've been on the biggest kick on your videos, Bailey!! Thank you for always coming thru with the hot juicy history goss I can't get enough of!! 🥰 Love ya girl!
I was thinking about this recently, Your singer friend releasing a song wouldn't have the same impact if yor favourite artist releases the same song. It's all about perception
This ghost stuff is so corny. It's one thing to use the help of a writer, or the help of a vocalist or the help of another producer. That to me is totally ok. There's no rules on collaborating in art. The problem becomes when people don't want to give credit to all those involved in producing the art. As if they are so important that they get to claim all credit and act as if they did everything.
I mean tbh, is this the "dark truth" or just the straight up truth some people don't wanna hear because they're such fan boys to some of these rappers that they will never admit this is actually happening. 😂🤷🏾♂️ Plus shout-out to the underground rappers who actually writing and recording their raps. We don't get much credit anymore.
It doesnt make sense to me why a label would want to strip all these things away from artists instead of growing them. If business is literally this cold there needs to be a change.
Just another reason to keep separating the appreciation for the art from the appreciation for the artists. As a business, it wouldn’t make sense to wait long periods of time for their artist to come up with music when their whole profitability is based on reliable consistent production. It’s amazing how fast an individual can become unreliable in work production. Artists are human, not machines. Sooner or later the creative juices dry up.
Don't mind singers using ghostwriters, but for me it's a different story for rappers. The point of a rapper is being able to write your own lyrics. Having a ghostwriter for that defeats the purpose.
It’s way different for being a Rapper or Hip Hop Artist period fr
I disagree, it's like this on both ends, a singer maybe able to sing but not write, just like a rapper can rap but not write, drake isn't a writer but can deliver so well that he's massively successful, compare that with someone who can write and you've got a star, and also you have to remember that we want music we can vibe to but they want to make money and live a better life so that's what they're gonna focus on no matter how they gotta do it, hence why "ghost writers" stay hidden until exposed, I personally don't care if rappers have ghost writers or not because without them we wouldn't have some of the people who make some of our most famous songs that may have helped us thru our toughest times
This was the mindset in the 90's & early 00's. Drake's verse in Stay Scheming goes like "it feels like rap changed. There was a time it was rugged, back when if Nigga reached then it was a weapon. Now days niggas reach just to sell their records". Drake was refering to new rappers of this generation nolonger have to carry guns and shot others but instead watch for avenues to sell their records. That said, the recent rappers only care about good muzik and the public nolonger cares who wrote the lyrics or punchline. Remember everyone is doing what they're doing to feed their family.
@@mungimichael3131 I get what you are saying I'm not mad at artists using ghostwriters or doing what they have to to feed their families. I'm just saying that for me, a rapper who can't write their own bars is not a rapper to me. Whether the music is good or not, a rapper who has others write their lyrics is not a rapper imo. I'll still listen if it's good but I'm not gonna respect you as a rapper. Of course the casual rap fan won't care about ghostwriters, but real hiphop heads like me take that shit to heart. Imagine if eminem revealed he had ghostwriters write his bars for him, it will be over for him and would be the biggest news in the music industry.
@@sierrasymone7590 I have no issues with ghostwriters, just don't expect me to respect you as a rapper if you can't write your own bars. Idc how good the song is. I'm a pure hiphop head so I guess my mindset is different for the casual rap fan. Also I'm not knocking anybody tryna make money I say do what it takes to pay the bills. My only point is, don't call yourself a rapper if you can't think of your own bars.
It's crazy how many people don't realize Drake isn't just an artist anymore, he's a whole brand and has a ton of people keeping that brand going. That's why it seems like he changes his styles and flows constantly. It's the whole OVO crew and others keeping him up so that everyone keeps making money.
Your not smart but it's just nobody actually cares bout that shit go like g🌈 y "brand" rappers
Drake has hundreds of people eating off him that won't let him fail. And he has used writers before but people not in the industry don't understand is every big artist colabs,your favorite producers have session players and engineers that help them.... and drake wrote a TON of songs for himself and other artists. Don't think drake isn't extremely talented
We know the problem is he claims to b the "coldest lyrisis"
But that ain't his lyrics in the 1st place
@ashtonndlovu9470 the best lines drake ever said Wayne wrote for him
@@Randomaccount9470when has he said this
Ghostwriters being responsible for the biggest hits we have at times is something to be grateful for, SOMEBODY had to do it lol. Just wish they got proper respect in the industry instead of letting the musicians get all the fame.
no we are not !!! soo awhy arent the ghost writters famous then if they have the talent
They don't want the fame. That's why they do it lol. They want the money without the fame.
They want to make a living by getting paid doing what they love without having their privacy invaded or getting chased by paparazzi. And some ghost writers who may already be a singer or rapper may want to work on other genres but are afraid of how it'll affect their image because they already built a fan base based on a certain sound and its very risky to make a drastic change of genre so they do it for somebody else without putting their name on it so people don't know it was them. Like how Tyler the Creator said "I wanted to make pop songs for artists" (idk what genre he normally does tho I don't really listen to his music but he's a hilarious guy lol)
@@tugzzcouncil485 because they write the song the label or artist pay for it they also sign paperwork giving up the rights to what they wrote. So if or when the song blows up they have 0 rights and can't sue
@@tugzzcouncil485 they write does not mean they can sing
Whenever I was a teenager I would go straight people's essays for school for $5 to $10 a piece, $20+ for college or term papers. Ghostwriting is in literally every single industry that involves words.
Every ghost writer deserves at least royalties.
No. Writing a song is a skill and talent, but that’s it. Putting pen to the sheet and creating lyrics. The ARTIST is the energy that brings those lyrics to life. The style, cadence, voice still belongs to the artist. That’s why they are ghostwriters. They aren’t good or appealing enough to make their own music come to life. They can only write. So they don’t get all the credit. Plus many ghostwritten lyrics and songs are just skeletons that the artist uses to make it their own by REWRITING it. Ghostwriters are not the most amazing people in music. They are only a piece of the puzzle to make a good record
@@capalottyslimalini2878writing the song is literally the hardest part
Ghostwriting isn’t inherently bad, it’s only when artist deny or won’t admit that they use them. The vast majority of music consumers don’t care who’s writing these songs anyways. So it’s like, why lie and take credit for someone else’s work??
That part 🎯
Because if people knew that most of the talent is coming from someone else then that someone else would start to want more money. Greed always triumph over human decency for some odd reason
Y’all wouldn’t believe how often, this happens…
I wrote so I know
Cuz publicity is wealth
Why I respect Mac Miller so much the guy played his own instruments at times, wrote his own lyrics, produced his own work, and was just a real Artist.
... you think.
Pfft LL Mac Miller, that kid was a true artist. He got caught up in the life that surrounds being young, influential, and rich. Rest easy
@@milkshakescigarettes7513 I know.
I could never respect you or any Rapper/Emcee if you got ghostwriters will NEVER & could NEVER That’s a Damn Shame smh!!! Used to listen to Drake but stopped the moment he was exposed using ghostwriters!!! Like come on for real what if people Said Biggie & Tupac had ghostwriters I can’t even imagine that bullshit could be true! & I don’t even understand how anybody could buy anybody’s music & continue to buy their when they know that RAPPER/ EMCEE didn’t write shit!!! ITS JUST CHEATING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR $$$ WHEN I FEEL THAT RAPPER/EMCEE Doesn’t deserve to make any $$$ @ all!!! My opinion cuz like how can you really say your the best or greatest when you never did shit to contribute those sells goin up!!!!
Majesco also 💯💯
The person who wrote the song should always have some royalty rights, even just a small %. If the artist wants to pretend they wrote it then fine (Drake can be as fake as he wants, but legally the actual author should get properly paid. I liked the part where Sarah M's writer won his lawsuit.
I do think it’s wild how you can sell a song for a couple grand and it can turn into such a huge hit, but 🤷🏻♀️ sorry boutchya. Maybe ghostwriters should look into that cause it seems like a pretty profitable business.
Song writer gets paid the most
@@rotty1019 unless you’re a ghost writer… in which case you’re paid & usually sign an NDA. If you know your worth upfront no matter how bad you want it there’s a good chance you can make big money in ghost writing. Song writing, where your name is plastered everywhere probably gets a % of sales & also gets the publicity/having their name put out there. If that makes sense? I think some people don’t want all the fame & drama, but they’re excellent at their craft.
Writers get paid and get credit
@not a human that's the point either sell your hard work and go unrecognized for your work for some chum change compared to what song will probably make, that'll atleast give you some connections in idustry and that's important Or, remain a sound cloud artist who's future potential to blow up is less than 0%
You should explore ghost singing/vocal blending. There’s so many popular singers who hardly perform on their own records and take credit for the work of the backing vocalists.
Jennifer Lopez, Britney spears
like Beyonce
@@DP-mv7ph Britney’s case is really difficult because when she was under her conservatorship (had her basic human rights stripped away) her father and team hired someone to record her whole 2013 album (Britney Jean) because she didn’t want to record it as she was being overworked, drugged, and controlledat the time and was trying to stand her ground by refusing. But the “ghost singer” was literally in on it and agreed to do it and was very excited to do it which I think was wrong because they all knew this was going to be done against Britney’s will and that she was being abused so I feel no sympathy for the ghost singer. The ghost writer also claimed to be a huge Britney fan which makes no sense to me because why would you basically work with your “idol” abusers?? Idk it’s weird.
I think this makes a lot of sense, especially with the "their earlier music was better" phenomenon. A lot of unique and thought provoking artists become formulaic after signing up to a label. They start sounding like everyone else bc they're using the same writers as everyone else.
Yup. Exactly. All because the label wants to invest in what they know already works. It’s got outta hand at this point. Every label has their own version of each archetype of rapper.
Frank Sinatra is a poor example in this context, he sang a lot of what are called "standards" in jazz terminology, classic songs from the 20s-40s by various songwriters that singers and instrumentalists will do their own versions and improvise on. He never tried to pass off as if he composed the songs like the other examples in the vid. I enjoyed the video dont get me wrong, just wanted to point that out
Sinatra was good at doing covers, which is more valid imo than ghostwriting
@@ExeErdna I would describe them more as 'renditions', because the songs he sung were open to interpretation in line with jazz performance. Sinatra singing Summertime is different from Ella Fitzgerald for example. but do you mean having someone ghostwrite for you or or being a ghostwriter yourself?
Exactly.
Had to defend that one huh 😂...Rock, country and pop artists all have writers too. Teams of them. Get over it.
@@B7ackTruth think you missed the point man, Frank never masqueraded like he wrote the songs that he sung, obv teams of writers are in other genres besides hiphop I never said anything to the contrary. Jazz is an entirely different context when it comes to songs, every great jazz singer in history all have diferent versions of the same tunes
ghostwriting in rap and singing is different. in singing your talent is your range, ability to carry a note, tone etc. this is why MJ and Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande having ghostwriters doesn’t matter much. but in RAP. your lyrics, creativity, delivery etc. is paramount and to have someone else do a bull if the work in making your lyrics takes away from the authenticity and the confidence the average listener has in your ability to be creative and tell your story over a beat.
Exactly. In singing, I actually expect that a song is most likely not written by the artist actually singing it, so it really doesn't matter. But in rap, maybe because of the history of hip hop and its roots being about personal life experiences/struggles and/or thoughts, you expect the artist to be writing his/her own stuff.
But Taylor Swift actually writes her music
There's a few rappers who write there own stuff all major label rappers durk youngboy drake 21 savage migos etc don't write. Which is why I mainly still listen to underground rap
@@Jmelpegues source?
Meh it’s all the same to me
I feel like collaborative music is dope as fuck and should be encouraged. If someone else wrote the lyrics but you're the more skilled performer, then that's fine. Just own it and give credit where it's due. The only problem I see is people taking the credit for shit they didn't do.
totally agree, just wish the industry wasnt so shady about it
frrrrr gawd!!
but the moooooneeeeey $$$$$$ lol
Not a rapper
As an industry songwriter, I can tell you firsthand that most artists don’t have the time to consistently come up with hits. They’re traveling, doing shows, club appearances, shooting videos, photo shoots, recording and perfecting songs etc.
Labels give them a deadline and they need heat by the deadline.
Truth is, to perform at a high level you need a team of ppl to help you rise and stay at the top.
Then they are not artists. Just lyricists. Even you used the word artist for people who don't deserve the word.
@@GreenEnvy. no. They’re still artists. They have talent and no one can take that from them.
Using a hook or a cadence from another artist to craft a song doesn’t make them any less of an artist. It makes them smart
Facts! Also songwriter/producers usually start as indie artist too. Not everyone should be a popstar
@@cooperdeniro9189 Would you call yourself a cook if you don't cook? Then why should someone be a music artist if they don't write the music or create the music? Having no time is not an excuse for these fake "artists."
@@GreenEnvy. yes, I would. Head chefs in restaurants don’t cook everything.
I’m not making an excuse for them, I’m just saying that our sole jobs as songwriters is to come up with song ideas & help the artists craft their songs. We have the time to do it, we’re not doing 6 shows a week, doing press runs, etc.
Once they start getting hot, very few artists can keep that sort of momentum going. Also the artists do have their own ideas and we help them tell the story better.
If Kevin Gates didn’t write the hook for 2 phones & Travis Scott didn’t write the hook for pickup the phone, yet they wrote their own verses & compensated the writer, should they not own the song?
Keep in mind that a LOT of songwriters only want to do what we love, write songs and have them be heard by the world (while also getting paid of course)
Rap culture should embrace it more like every other genre. Maybe we wouldn’t have so many rappers falling off after 1 album 🤷🏾♂️
Tbh I don't mind ghostwriting at all! It stills takes such talent to make words on a paper come to life or a reference track.... shit is not easy
That’s not what ghostwriting is.
@@persona7-7-7 what is it?
@@Mojacaine They usually send in a reference track or help in the studio, not send in a pad of rhymes.
@persona you just stated the same thing @MOJA said that you apparently disagreed with.
@@persona7-7-7 What exactly are you disagreeing with?
About 10 years ago I downloaded many tracks from a website. There were often samples, demo etc. you could hear a song months, even years before they were released….by another artist. I remember Rihanna‘s „te amo“ which was written by James Fauntleroy. He produced a demo of this songs with these exact lyrics. I heard his version first and fell in love with it. A year later Rihanna released her version of it, even with lyrics taylored to a man singing to a woman. She just used a girl in the video…and I was mad that James Fauntleroy didn‘t get the credits as a producer and singer for it…
Sicko mode has like 50 wiriters bruh it’s crazy
partly because hella songs were sampled on it
@@sparkie4604 i wasnt saying I disagreed , just adding to the comment i know he uses hella ghostwriters n shit
Producers are writers remember three beats
@@sparkie4604 fr he’s carried by his producers ngl
yeah, all for him to say “all of these hoes are made of records i produce”
One of the reasons I really like Eminem's music.
He writes his own stuff. And you can tell he writes it all himself, his stuff has a personality that nobody else can replicate.
Yeah, there's definitely no mistaking Em's atrocious writing
@@TomBrandon121😂
sure and I can do the worlds fastest backflip
@@youloob2 really?
Eminem wouldn’t be were he’s at without dr Dre. I feel like when people try and call out ghostwriting and act like writing alone is what makes a good rapper is crazy
In Egypt we have writers, not ghost writers. They're insanely respected, always mentioned and referenced by the artist, usually praised by the artist for their beautiful lyrics. Song writers are famous here and they really can be if we stop treating them as ghosts
I wrote doja cats songs
Hearing the sample songs especially the drake one was wild. Seriously hurts peoples legacies if they use ghost writers.
Why?
@@sircartier4422 That's because Kanye is a producer turned rapper. He's looked at like Dr. Dre and Kanye let's it's be known that he has writers.
@@slimjimmy4070 here's the thing tho, did he use to write his lyrics at the beginning of his career? How heavily did he rely on ghostwriters? How many songs did he actually produce? There's so many questions that I have when it comes to Kanye, because, deep down, I want to believe that he wrote and produced many of his songs but I'm not sure anymore
@@andresduques2013 Here's the thing. It's common for producer's not to write their own lyrics. Kanye has said he uses writers so it's no secret. I have never heard anyone question if Kanye produced his early music and with all the money and fame he's had someone would of came out to claim credit for his work if they really produced it for him. There is footage of Kanye making his beats but there is no footage of Drake ever writing any music or any footage of Drake freestyling without a phone in his hand.
@@slimjimmy4070 kanye hasn’t made beats solo since mbdtf. He gets other producers to make instruments and samples and oversees it more how someone like Quincy jones would’ve directed/produced musicians.
We should all fr appreciate every single person that supports us. Even if it’s only like 50 streams on a new song or vid, that’s 50 ppl who took the time out of their day to support the art 💯💙
Facts 💯
bruh you are everywhere😭
Weirdo
Best comment
What does this have to do with literally anything
At least that DJ is giving others the credit when he says " WE the Best"
Lol extremely underrated comment
I just want a tell you what a psychic told me
@@BlockO008Agreed.
The guy you’re referring to who says “we the best” is absolutely full of himself. To the point where half his show was him doing call-and-response with his own name for 30-50% of the show.
Na this is facts. Khaled credits all his collaborators. It ain’t “I’m the best” it’s “we the best”.
when eminem first came out he was called modern day sheakspeare and i remember reading that he was praised by a nobel laureate, so imagine if it came out that he didn’t wrote stan… that would shatter his whole image. it may not matter for other genres but its important for rap definetly. like just credit as co-writers at least bro there’s nothing wrong with that?
If youre a singer who didn't write their own song, you could still be an amazing singer.
But I think for a rapper, the NUMBER 1 crime is coming off as insincere or inauthentic. I think there are definately rappers who's image really hinges on it all being their own voice.
yeah eminem def wrote stan
@@kamilareeder1493 yeah exactly authenticity is the key in hip hop. the whole movie of 8 mile is based on that
It's definitely DJ Khaled. His whole image about being #1 is built on that huge level of support. It's why he got so mad when he lost to Igor, he's been gassed up and then lost when he had a full support team behind him.
Just search "Dj Khaled making a Beat"
Ehh, who cares if singers don't write their music? Their instrument is their voice. Rappers on the other hand should absolutely be writing their own bars.
Ghostwriting is sometimes also a collaborative thing where the artist will change some words or write a portion of the song sometimes it’s not split between writers for malicious reasons
See, this was what I was asking about originally. Some people say this IS ghostwriting others say this ISN’T ghostwriting can someone clarify as of today what we consider it? I think changing a word here or there isn’t… but if you’re sitting down and helping write ANY PART OF THE SONG other than that yeah you helped write the song. So not giving credit where credit is due is purposeful & disrespectful.
Yup. This was especially true in the 60s where the “Wrecking Crew” was used as session musicians. I’ve heard so many hours of session tapes where during the course of the session , so many suggestions (or happy accidents as well) would occur that by the time the song was finished hours later, it sometimes will be a completely different song than before, cause sometimes a session musician would say something like an idea and they’d run with it. These days they’d have been given credit . That doesn’t mean they “ghost wrote “ . Again, it’s a different beast compared to rap.
@@AmyChaos Not unless the ghost writer doesn't want their name out there, maybe that's why they're a ghost writer in the first place.
@@ProGamer-lk9qw Did you read the OP or anything we were talking about before leaving this comment about why a ghostwriter is called a ghostwriter… bc that wasn’t that question?
@@AmyChaos You said not giving credit when ghostwriters normally don't take credit, I don't see what I said wrong here just stating a fact
Back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, when majority of musicians actually knew how to play instruments and had to write, sing and play their own music? Yea, those were true artists.
bro your editing has improved so much. keep killing it fr
It takes a team to produce masterpieces just like it takes a team to produce a movie. At the end of the day, it’s the artist that needs to have the expertise to make a song work.
It’s important to remember the idea that major artists write their own material is a relatively new phenomenon, like you mentioned most of the artists around Sinatra’s time and well before him all sang songs written by separate composers. It’s only been since around the 90’s that it became a thing that an artist has to do it all to be seen as legitimate
If you have a ghost writer, then that's fine. Most of the time you'll find people who can't write a bar for their life or have no clue how to construct punchlines, but if you give them a book on rhymes, they'd have a godly voice, flow or cadence that make it fit. Others are the opposite, whether they can't flow, or stay on beat for their life, but when you hear the lyrics, it hits different. My thing is, DON'T CALL YOURSELF A TOP LYRICIST IF YOU DON'T WRITE YOUR LYRICS. You fan call yourself one of the top MCs since you are known to *M*ove *C*rowds. But a *LYRICIST*?! Leave that to the true wordsmiths out here
Makes me think about Lil Kim
I thought it meant mic controller lol (yes, most likely means more than one thing, like motorcycle lol)
@@1337-i3v no it means move the crowd
@@1337-i3v move crowds, mic controller, either ways, when your voice is on the record, EVERYONE listens. That's something you can claim and I'd respect it. But calling yourself the best lyricist. . . Nah.
Mic controller is a new one for me, thanks for that man! Maybe that is the real definition. Idk personally!
Thank you
I often think about my favorite artist as I think of companies. They deligate and curate. Which is still a skill to me. Still can be disappointing, but I still believe that
being a "star" and being a great songwriter are two very different, distinct things. Having both of these qualities at such a high level is a lot more rare then people like to think. The way i see it is being an artist in the music industry is so much more than just making good songs. Some people are great at writing but have no charisma or "star" power, and for others its the complete opposite. They AREN'T mutually exclusive and having just one of those things isn't enough to make you "famous"
People have made entire careers in the music industry just through ghost producing, these are people who otherwise would likely see nothing from their hard work. If a ghost writer/producer is getting paid for their work, there's literally no issues with it. Fans often have this unrealistic idea about the capabilities of their favorite artists
agreed, you get to write songs for a living without the nonsense (and albeit, extreme wealth) that comes with fame. not too bad.
@@astromaniac360 yep exactly. That's the real dream honestly.
And this is why I love The Weeknd! He writes all of his songs and sure, sometimes, he works with others when writing, but unlike Drake, Abel writes his own music. Hell, Abel even wrote several songs for Drake's, "Take Care" album.
Lady Gaga also writes her own music and both Abel & Gaga never lip sing, either. Both fantastic artists who are quite literally mega-titans in the industry!
I guess you missed the mixtape controversy then :p
I love Lady gaga to
Lmfao drake has litterly written hits for other artist
@@fyseanwhat is this?
You mentioned Producers in the beginning… I have a group of friends that work in music and a few got signed with Mike Will and their jobs was just to make beats and if the lead producers liked them they would present them to their artists. That’s why I learned it’s important, as a producer, to create a sound signature so you can prove it was you if you need to.
Demi Lovatos song Anyone was written by a beautiful woman about no one listening to HER and Demi used it to show people how her using drugs was her feeling like she didn’t have anyone listening but I think the original writer should also release her own version
I m glad to see artists like autumn that make their own beats, even showing their work process on instagram.
The reason it's frowned upon in Hip Hop is cause most rap artists solely credit themselves or speak on how they didn't need anyone to make it.
Or when they receive awards for work they didn't do and credit themselves and not mention who was really doing the work.
And hip hop prides itself on authenticity. Hence why even Em was like I'd just stop rapping if I needed a ghostie despite how well known it is that Dr Dre uses them including Drake once upon a time
The reason it’s frowned upon in Hip Hop is cause most rap artists solely are sharing their hard truths with the world from their perspective.
@@realjoshb you just watched a whole video about ghostwriters and you still believe what you just copy and pasted under my comment?
Omg y’all love to bring up Eminem . The girl been needed a writer tbh
I agree with this comment tho
@@jaburollup but you’re both right though😂
The entire concept of ghostwriting is so heartbreaking to me. All those talented ass people with nothing to show for it, not even a credit. I don't know how the credited artists can feel good about that.
Couldn’t be me. Something about making ur own songs from scratch feels amazing. And being a producer knowing how much work it takes to create beats at times. Definitely couldn’t imagine not crediting someone you worked with. Ghost writing shouldn’t be a thing. Period.
THANK YOU
And it's literally lying to their supporters aka the consumers of the work. Its basically a scam.
I don't know how people find this normal
@@denial1004 ikr me either
@@denial1004 It's because they grew up without knowing a broader range of music. They accept any poppy trash thrown out. Yet they wonder why more rappers are coming up as frauds, broke and dropping off.
I didn’t know bout Mozart ghostwriting for people! Beautifully done vid, I’m not gonna lie, I think it takes away a lil if a rapper has a ghostwriter, especially if all he raps about is how good he is on the mic
I am a ghostwriter- like, that’s not my main profession😂 but I’m a writer which obviously is hard to make lucrative, so I do a lot of ghost writing and I’ll say two things:
1) It’s not just music and books. I ghost wrote an apology for a TH-camr. I swear on my life, signed an NDA (which may be expired by now but I’m not gonna give up his name because he’s a genuinely nice person) but it was one of the only apologies I’ve ever seen that unanimously everybody accepted. I just told the truth. Kept it to facts. Imagine that 😂.
2) don’t feel bad for the ghost writers. As I said, whether it’s a single line or an entire book, we have to sign an NDA and usually some other contracts as well saying that someone else is going to take responsibility for our writing. So we know. Now are there some who probably don’t want to do it and have to do because they need the money? Yeah probably. But that’s the way the world works unfortunately. Sometimes having a name is all you need to get people to read your writing… And it’s unfortunate as a ghost rider when someone else is getting labeled as a gifted writer and you’re sitting there like “IM the gifted writer” 😂.
But my point is it’s not anything sneaky or shady. You know going in.
PS- as for the TH-camr… I’m not only ghost wrote the apology but I wrote him a little separate thing of instructions to tell him how to make it seem like it was kind of off the top of his head. I also made a key like (whatever) “///“ means take a 2 second pause and look away from the camera. He did it great though.
And don’t let this make you angry… The reason he was being attacked was not fair to him to begin with… So it was more like he wanted to explain what actually happened while being articulate because he knew it was his only chance and that if he didn’t do a good job he would lose everyone believing him.
He gave me $500 (I offered to do it for free). And then the day after everyone was writing nice comments as replies and saying sorry to HIM etc he sent me more money as a thank you.
It’s a gamer.
Ok I don’t wanna be mean. He really is a good guy. Rich AF though so I didn’t feel bad about the $ lol. Did offer to do it free though- bc I felt he was being attacked unfairly too. But he wouldn’t have it. So he paid me thru cash app after he read what I wrote (I’d already signed paper work so he couldn’t just take it and run lol).
Sorry to comment on my own post I just realized that the way I wrote it was only gonna make people have questions lol
This is so cap
@@scamueladams 🤣😂😂
@@speeeee35 What's the TH-camr's name? Seems a little bit cap tbh.
Cap
Even more reasons why I love Steely Dan. Those guys spent days writing their own lyrics to every song and I love their lyrics.
It's why they don't play that when it comes to samples either.
Part of the music experience is connecting the artist to the art. Hearing their story, their joy, their pain, their accomplishments and their sorrows. If none of that comes from them then it is an inauthentic listening experience. Like hearing someone read someone else’s autobiography. If ghost writing is the future of the industry along with streaming instead of buying albums then all music should be anonymous
I liked that you know what a true ghostwriter is. A none accredited writer. A ghost, unseen and unknown.
8:00 DJ Khaled doesn’t even claim that he produces his songs he only managing the hole song so it can be the best it can be.
So it would be pretty unecessary to call him out for ghostproducing because he credits his producers he work with.
My favorite musician wrote,composed, mixed,arranged, produced and played all the instruments on his music. That's why Prince is the G.O.A.T
I dated a ghostwriter. I left that relationship with all my illusions and favs ruined.he was HIGHLY secretive but he would drop clues here and there and about who didn’t write their own rhymes.
one of the first things artists need to know is that performing and writing is TWO VERY DIFFERENT SKILLS!!
I was so disappointed to discover Joji's "Glimpse of Us" wasn't even written by him. It's crazy how even those you are convinced write their own letters usually have a team of 4+ people helping them write it.
you just broke my heart frrr
I mean, did you like it? He had people help with his videos, it's not a stretch to think he had help with his music, especially after he had actual money.
I prefer filthy frank
@@soflovesmatcha good lol
I probably am wrong, but I think glimpse of us was his only ghost written song because charlie puth was originally supposed to perform it. Again, I'm not sure if I'm correct.
I've come to accept that rappers use ghostwriters but I gotta say that I'm not as much of a fan of individual rappers as I was in the past when we thought they all wrote for themselves.
This is the thing...A rapper's skill is his penmanship. A singer's skill is their vocal ability. That's why it's accepted when singers use writers, and why most singers admit it and/or give credit.
In order to be a Hip Hop GOAT for me and considered a top lyricist you have to write your own stuff. But it doesnt bother me if the music is still good. And Joey BADASS wrote Rockstar by Post Malone. I was mind blown to find that out.
You’re not gonna like the reality that every rapper has had help in some form. Whether it’s their style, lines, voice, no artist has ever made it without a team.
@@SpliffyHusk thats just not true lol. Sure they may have people around that influence and support the artist, but not every artist is getting direct lyrics or references.
2pac, Jay z , king von , lil wayne , eminem , j cole all either write of freestyle over the beat
Facts
Facts, like you dont need to wrote the WHOLE album alone, but you need to write at least some. If you're a singer, we can focus on tone, range and stuff like that. But for a rapper, you have your delivery and your lyrics.
Some peoples music clearly doesn't stand up when you take one of those pillars out.
Most peoples' first album took years for them to create. When someone gets super famous quickly they're immediately expected to top their last album and I think you MUST have a team to work under that kind of time pressure and have it be good like your first one that took years
you can pretty much bet your life savings. 90% of the shit on the radio, of any genre, wasn't written by the person performing it. it's especially true with any pop music. Pop exists by using teams of people, to create the perfect songs that will guaranteed be hits.
Performers have SONGWRITERS not GHOSTWRITERS. Two completely different things. Ghost writers get paid a one time fee and unmentioned whereas Songwriters get royalties and credits.
Sinatra was a SINGER not a songwriter. He’s called “The Voice” for his talent in that regard. He, like most jazz/blues artists, covered Popular Standards (classics). Ignorance IS bliss but knowledge can SUCK.
Well the one thing about being a music producer is that doesn't really mean you made the beat. It could simply mean that you organized the song and sourced the talent and then put everything together which is what DJ Khaled does and and talks about himself. This is includes getting a pianist to come and play a melody, sourcing background singers, beat makers, mixers, and someone to master the music. It's similar to the term producer when used for film and tv. Just because your film producer doesn't mean you wrote the movie, edited it, ect.
That's like finding out that your favorite TH-camr doesn't make his own videos. Got a whole team and a new voice over for the channel. Ghost TH-camr 👻 😱
Ikr true lol
I remember I worked for a marketing agency and we were gonna make an ad that use sounds products by the product and make a track out of it, then partner with a top 10 DJ at the time to have his name and credits slapped on it for brand value, and then have the ad be a collab between the product and the DJ. Taught me all I needed to know. Also have a friend under Martin Garrix' label who's been ghost producing for people in the edm industry for some time. Really changed my outlook.
Idm it so much. some people (like myself) aren't cut for the stage life, so they make music for people who are. Allows art to still make it into the world. Plus pop is primarily entertainment. But when it's a rapper (who imo are poets who use lyrics and music as their medium) who doesn't write their own lyrics i feel cheated.
(sry for being vague, NDA's n stuff)
Man this shit goes alot deeper than i thought. I knew of certain "Rappers" who used them but never realised how many of them actually are. As for the "DJ" its very obvious but for the EDM ones selling off full finished tracks to market as your own i have no words, im honestly in shock.
You don't understand how creativity works. It's a job like any other job out there. There are better people at it than others, do obviously you want the better ones to work for you. And honestly, everyone seems to think they are so different, unique and special. Every single human in this planet has had the same type of experiences: love problems, money struggles, relationship problems, to come from a dysfunctional family or a broken one, to struggle to find success, to search for a way of expression, mental health issues, self esteem issues, the death of somebody you care for... these experiences are universal.
My question/deal w/ ‘ghost writing’ is when they’re saying ‘we’re sure he used a ghost writer’ but they’re referring to the input of other artists listening to the record before it’s released (if that makes sense?) like Cole & Bas working together in the same studio & if Bas was like ‘hey man why don’t you try this’ or vice versa - is that ‘ghost writing’ or just artists working together throwing out ideas? I mean was Wu Tang supposed to put every single member down as a ghost writer for each of their own verses just bc they were in the studio together & said “YEAH MAN THAT’S IT DO THAT!”. This is what really confuses me. The way Post did Joey was whack, man still doesn’t get the recognition he deserves. Then gets hated on for doing the ghost writing 💀
I think it depends on what extent the ghostwriters contribution was.
Nah you can bounce ideas off of each other, ghostwriting is different, it’s more shady. I’ve been hanging with friends making music and I can be like “nah, do it like this.” or “You should say this instead.” Friends have done it for me. It’s like my friend makes a sculpture and I took some sandpaper to help smooth it out. They did the work. No one is doing anything truly alone we’re all inspired by stuff but at the same time we’re really the ones making our stuff ghostwriting is just taking credit for someone else’s work. Basically a legal version of plagiarism.
@@jacklightyear5869
Yeah, that what I'm basically trying to get at. I'm just getting the semantics all fucked up.
@@jacklightyear5869 Okay! That’s what I thought, because I would think all artists (for the most part) would say ‘let me run this past you’ or ‘check this out’ just because you’re normally in the studio with at least one other person. I feel like A LOT of people are getting ‘ghost writing’ where someone else writes the song & gets zero credit confused with collabs or just people throwing ideas around. I mean if someone else wrote part of the song/beat & they aren’t given credit… they’re a ghost in my opinion. If they said ‘I like that, keep it’ nah
Elton John has had most of his lyrics written by Bernie Taupin. They are one of the most successful writing duos in the history of Rock n Roll. And Elton has always been very open about their relationship.
The problem with a rapper having a ghost writer is that traditionally rap is about the skills the rapper possesses. You can’t rap about how good you are at rapping if you can’t do the most basic and necessary part.
rapping isn't solely about that, there is voice, flow, charisma, and command on the mic, what happens if you had all that but you lack the writing part? you could try to improve it, yes, but you won't be as good, so what then?
@@Xxh0mEr0xX agree to disagree. While it requires more than just writing if you can’t rhyme why would you ever become a rapper. Bubble gum rap is radio trash. I laugh in your face if you tell me you’re a rapper but someone else writes for you. That makes you a boy band at most.
@@illeagle8041 I think writing rhymes isn't the same as spitting those rhymes. If you can combine the best of both worlds why not?
@@Xxh0mEr0xX perhaps it’s a generational thing. Where I come from rapping starts in neighborhoods while people stand in circles trying to out do the last. If you can’t do it on your own you wouldn’t stand there. No right or wrong at the end of the day but I personally can’t respect a rapper who can’t write his/her own. Backstreet Boys could all sing and dance but I don’t consider them artist. For me art is about creating from with in.
@@illeagle8041 That's a fair opinion. Nothing to add. Cheers my friend
Hip hop is based on being real, if you got ghostwriters you ain’t real. That’s the problem, ghostwriters for other genres is different.
I feel like Hip Hop is in a class of its own. I don’t really care if pop rap uses ghostwriters, I don’t consider that music hip hop, its just rap or pop. Examples of this are like Drake, Post Malone, Cardi B, Snoop Dog, and 99.9 percent of any rap related music on the radio. When it comes to Hip Hop, there’s a purity aspect of the art form that is more important than just making money or getting on the pop charts. True Hip Hop MC’s are the only one’s who can ever be considered G.O.A.T’s, and that nearly automatically excludes anything you hear on the radio.
EDIT: Just finished watching. I wish I knew you were making this vid. I coulda put you on a few other insane tactics that are used.
This is the TH-cam comment section so no one will give a shit or believe me but I can also be somewhat anonymous with this weird flex… I was supposed to have a writing credit on a MAJOR 2015 R&B song. I got an offer of a small monetary sum plus a writing credit or I could take a bigger sum with no credit but industry hook ups. I took the large sum for no credit as I thought the song would never be a single anyway. The song also ended up in a lawsuit due to a sample used. That being said I started in the industry as an audio engineer. The amount of trading between artists and how often they use writers is way more common than you’d ever think. The deeper level of it is the production side. A lot of your favorite artists aren’t creators. They’re known because they’re naturally good in front of the camera. They’re easy to market. Labels and managers will pick someone who is already naturally good in front of a camera or photogenic over someone that is an amazing creative. Someone has to be so unbelievably talented and consistent in order to make it as an actual artist they’ll put marketing behind. Too much risk vs reward. A lot of your favorite producers also have their own lil sweatshops and groups tasked with giving them melodies, loops, etc. It works because a lot of the actual creators don’t want the acknowledgment or the clout. They’re happy with getting a bundle here and there and letting the clout chasers be in front of the camera. A good writer that actually ended up as a decent artist is Saint Jhn. He gets nearly no marketing. An absolutely amazing writer (wrote for Drake and got him his break into the industry) is Nickelus F. He actually had a deal at one point but kept getting put on the back burner as his music was considered too niche. He went independent. CyHi is a great lyricist. He doesn’t get the marketing. A lot of this is because they’re giving up a lot of their best stuff. The amount of producers I’ve seen give rappers hooks or concepts they’ve had for their beats is also pretty insane. I always said I’d write a book on my industry experiences but TH-cam channels like this one do some AMAZING legwork! Solid content!
Actually its public information that DJ Khaled doesn't produce any of his songs. He is just a promotor who links the singers and beat makers, and releases it under his name. Great video tho!
For me I see ghost writing like this, you should at least start off writing your own stuff but once you working on a album and just at this stalemate of nothing new that’s when I feel like yeah it’s okay to get some ghost writers on the album to finish it.
I remember a song that was a huge hit: “The Energy” by Audiovent. It was very VERY popular and could have started a great career for Audiovent (I dont think they had another hit after The Energy).
The thing about this particular song was it was featured in a news broadcast. This broadcast talked about the writer of the song and he wasn’t in the band.
I will never forget that image of the true writer, sitting behind his desk, writing, and he was singing the song quietly to himself. He sounded nearly like the lead singer.
The news talked about “ghost writers” and who in the industry used them. It was pointed out that there has been quite a few times where someone had a good song and attempted to start a music career but for one reason or another, it didn’t work out for them so they would try to find someone to sing their song.
That’s what happened with The Energy by Audiovent. That’s what happened with a few songs. I know of others but I can’t recall the titles of said songs nor who sang them.
But there IS a very famous musician who often wrote songs for other artists. Prince. Yes, he was a very famous musician but on the occasion he would write a song and give it to an artist to sing. You’d be surprised how many famous people wrote hit songs especially when they aren’t musicians. There are a few videos on TH-cam that covers these.
Edit: Okay this is a major problem for me. Not that artists use ghostwriters, I get it. Artists are extremely busy and don’t often have the time to write songs. Fine. But what bothers me about the ghostwriting industry is the fact that they don’t earn any royalties! Like what!? I mean I knew this happened. I watched a video not too long ago about a very famous producer (frankly I had never heard of him but I heard his music) who I believe has worked with Post Malone, but it sucks that they mostly don’t get any credit but outside of the money they get upfront, that’s it. That seems EXTREMELY unfair.
Sounds a LOT like ghost singers. There is a VERY famous case about a singer who got shafted by the music industry. If it strikes your interest look up C+C Music Factory and what they did to the real female vocalist. It’s pretty messed up.
Apparently the production company approached this already famous singer (She was one of the singers who sang “It’s Raining Men!”) and told her that they were going to create a new band and asked her to join. She was ecstatic and agreed. They had her sing the back up vocals and recorded her. She asked them when she was going to meet the other musicians in the group and they told her soon. She was sitting at home when she heard a familiar beat playing on the tv. She turned to see C+C Music Factory singing one of their hits. She was floored. That was HER VOICE coming out of a woman who was NOT HER. She tried to contact the record label and they kept giving her the run around. In the meantime C+C released another single, yet another smash hit for the band.
That’s when she had enough and SUED. That’s when the sh** hit the fan. They found out that this particular vocalist had been featured in a few bands… but not herself. They put her voice behind other women. I cannot remember the other bands but I know C+C Music Factory was one.
When it came out how the record company treated this veteran of the music industry (remember I said she already had a popular hit song), it took some time but she eventually settled.
In the aftermath, all the groups that featured her voice ended up disappearing from the disgrace. Now when you look up the songs that she was featured in, she is credited but man… PAY THESE PEOPLE! Sure, you paid them to write the song… but if it becomes a mega hit… PAY THEM MORE! It’s not that freaking hard!
This happens in the book industry, too. Then authors want to claim it’s the ghost writer’s fault when their books are found to have plagiarised material in them. 🙊
W video
Sup Matty I knew about ghost writers but I didn't realise, how big of a industry it is. Or how ghost writing works, so I appreciate you giving a insight into ghost writing. 😎💯🙌
Avicii was such an amazing producer and wrote a lot of songs not just for his track but also wrote stuff that were used by major artists, sky full of stars by Coldplay is a notable one, you can find him in the studio creating it with Chris from Coldplay. Its a great clip to watch how he built the song and continued to and Chris couldn't believe how good he was.. Sadly he committed suicide
I used to feel like a hack because I rapped but didn't know how to make beats. My dad would be like "You can't call yourself a 'musician' and not even know how to play an instrument." But I wrote 100% of all my own lyrics. Hooks and verses. Now the industry is filled with so many talentless hacks posing as artists it's ridiculous. But it does make me appreciate my own talent a lot more.
Bro, I used to think in the same way but because I don't have money to by instruments or mics and when I have money I have to help my parents. I was like "I have the idea but I just need instruments". Lucky for us, there are websites where you can use instruments digitally and also sometimes they have like A LOT of sounds. Like say you have a sound in mind you describe it "piano, dark, G bemol minor, 96 bpm" and it gives you a lot of options with the key words you've wrote. That's how I make beats, I try to find a sound that it's similar to my brain and I change the note and the time. And little by little you build a song because then you are like "this piano needs acustic jazz drums" and you write what you're looking for and sometimes you find it (sometimes you don't and it's like "okay... let's think about another instrument" or "okay let's play the notes I want on the digital instruments". IT'S AWESOME, you should use it. You can produce there too and (like I said i don't have much money) you can make yourself sound like you are singing on a mic when you are just using your phone. It's like Reaper or Adobe Audition but with the sounds that help you if you don't have mics or instruments available. GIVE IT A TRY!!
I’m so glad I was into metal when I was a teenager. It really would have made me sour if I found out a song I really connected with, wasn’t even created by the person I’m listening to.
People get so mad about ghost writers. Art is rarely ever created without another persons influence. Even smaller artists will send their songs to their friends and shit to make sure it’s good before they put it out. All writers should be credited of course but this idea that if an artist has someone assist them in writing a song then they’re not really an artist is fucking wild
I can safely say, I've written every word , played every instrument and produced every track myself. I will write songs for others on the rosta , but not as a ghost . Full disclosure or nothing. . Big up to all y'all who put your own work in too.
Imo, ain't a problem with ghost writers or having tracks written for you, that being said, I personally take issue with artists that try to make it seem as if they are better than that or above it when in reality they themselves got a whole team working for them and attempt to make it seem as if the situation is any but what it really is. In a genre that prides itself on authenticity its rather paradoxical. Just be up front about it, if you write your own stuff great, if you are just a vocalist and don't then don't make it seem like you do since it'll just be more backlash and damage control to try and sway the narrative
Idk just my personal take on it but before long I doubt it will matter at all with the way things seem to be going 🤷♂️
The realness is, using a ghost writer with a non disclosure is misrepresenting both art and artist to the fans. Why be ashamed? Rythym and blues singers don't hide credits. The singing most times in itself reveals actual talent. Spitting bars on beat, in a specific cadence, adding ad libs, and live performances also take talent. If we gave props for that, as fans, maybe this wouldn't be a thing at all.
Most artists in 50s 60s and 70s had writters. Michael wrote most of his Songs him self and sinatra didn't need to write Songs cause he sang amazing!
Don’t forget drake was writing for people when he first got in the industry
its funny one of my favorite artist is a ghost writer and she wrote many of my favorite songs from other artist as well. her name is Kirby. She has an amazingly beautiful song called Loved by you and she wrote Ye's only one and rhianna's 4,5, seconds among other great songs. The argument that not everyone is not meant to be vocalist or that not everyone is not meant to be a lyricist is bullcaca to me because in most cases it just boils down to monetizing clout. Ghost writers most oftenly just don't have clout. Many are actual great vocalist and actually studied music but because they are not well known they're music don't really have the potential to sell as much as they'd get paid for writing for an establish artist theoretically.
Eminem's "Rap god" has like 40 writers
I took care of a very elderly man, (rest his soul now.)But I remember he told me he helped write a very famous country song. 2 years later I actually googled it and was never been able to find his name to the song. Either he was a ghost writer or a senile old man. But he was always singing and make it on the spot. I was going to school for music and he told me if you don’t have the ability to make a tune or come up with the words it might not be for you.
See, my thing is rappers going out marketing themselves as "rappers" and "artists," when instead they are vocalists, performers and actors.
Ghostwriting in pop music is fine just for the simple fact that its more of how you sing or your ability to hit notes, you can have the best ghost writer but if you can’t hit notes you’ll never be a pop star. Ghostwriting in rap is a no no
Buddy of mine lived off of Ghost Producing for 1 1/2 years to help his family while his music career was in its infancy, granted he didn't give the artists his good shit. Wouldn't shock me if this turns predatory, since some artists feel like they have to ghost produce or write to survive while not furthering their own careers
Well it already is and my conspiracy theory on why labels insist on ghostwriters is to control the performers and keep them dependent on the labels it’s a shady practice for sure
There’s an interview with an artist named Saint Jhn where he talks about writing camps. Basically a team of writers/producers get together and make hits (essentially).
But it’s crazy to see people who go unnoticed but had some major record credits. One example is this dude Bobby Raps (if you know Corbin aka Spooky Black you know him) who has wrote for Beyoncé… Beyoncé dude… like dude is talented af. But Beyoncé? It’s wild.
But I love that you brought up the actual meaning of a ghostwriter. Cuz most these artists buy songs and there’s been many cases where they come out on livestreams or interviews saying “that was supposed to be my song” n all that.
Yeah bobby raps literally wrote and produced Xanax Damage
@@IanPlug i gotta check out his music cus writing for beyonce and producing a fire beat for future is crazy
@@vabby2k nah he wrote the whole song i can dm u a vid of bobby reference track on insta later if u want
Yea I’ve been in one before
@@vabby2k the couch potato project he did with Corbin is dope if you’re a fan of Corbin. But the Mark album is pretty solid to me. I think there’s like a whole little documentary on him from when he was basically a kid. Been in it for a while now
Nothing wrong with networking. Some people are performers and not writers. Music is also a universal experience and can mean something different to each person. Just cuz a rapper doesn’t write their own lyrics doesn’t mean they can’t express it and make it a real human experience. My issue is don’t gas yourself up and promote yourself as a “genius” or as a greater artist than someone who is considered unsuccessful; cuz there’s always someone better than you. Remember how lucky you are to be making a living off your art. Just be honest and give credit where credit is due.
There are rock bands that actually have ghost PLAYERS. On the recordings, it's not even them playing parts of a song. KISS went as far as to have musicians under the stage playing some of the music during live concerts.
One of my favorite artist is just transparent about it and he supports and features the song writer, I think this is a very good way of including it. I get more real good music!
As for DJ Khaled. As far as I know, he never claimed to make the beats. I was just always under the impression he paid for a beat, paid for the features, and just helped orchestrate the whole thing. Pretty dope concept, I think - especially if it’s gonna be a hit, which it usually is.
Yeah and I don’t think I’ve seen a song where he’s actually credited as the producer
@@akeme25 Fabolous - Gangsta
The problem to me in instances when the fans feel betrayed that their idol wasn't the one to come up with the words they relate so badly is in the fans themselves.
If you engage with the music itself instead of worshiping the personalities behind it you'll have no problem appreciating the end result for what it is.
I've been on the biggest kick on your videos, Bailey!! Thank you for always coming thru with the hot juicy history goss I can't get enough of!! 🥰 Love ya girl!
I was thinking about this recently,
Your singer friend releasing a song wouldn't have the same impact if yor favourite artist releases the same song.
It's all about perception
This ghost stuff is so corny. It's one thing to use the help of a writer, or the help of a vocalist or the help of another producer. That to me is totally ok. There's no rules on collaborating in art. The problem becomes when people don't want to give credit to all those involved in producing the art. As if they are so important that they get to claim all credit and act as if they did everything.
I mean tbh, is this the "dark truth" or just the straight up truth some people don't wanna hear because they're such fan boys to some of these rappers that they will never admit this is actually happening. 😂🤷🏾♂️ Plus shout-out to the underground rappers who actually writing and recording their raps. We don't get much credit anymore.
It doesnt make sense to me why a label would want to strip all these things away from artists instead of growing them. If business is literally this cold there needs to be a change.
Just another reason to keep separating the appreciation for the art from the appreciation for the artists. As a business, it wouldn’t make sense to wait long periods of time for their artist to come up with music when their whole profitability is based on reliable consistent production. It’s amazing how fast an individual can become unreliable in work production. Artists are human, not machines. Sooner or later the creative juices dry up.
Nothing wrong with artists needing help with their music. I just don't like being lied to