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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- An updated budget teaching stream, I did this few weeks ago so ignore the mage thrall bug. This is what I'd run for meta 500 ToA budget runs if you want to get kits but have no GP. I go over all the gear and why mixed hide in THIS case isn't good. Mixed hide is for T-bow, Moons gear is for Bofa set ups.
With hybrid gear available and easier to obtain, I think Bandos is becoming obsolete for learners. Having supplies seems to be the hardest thing about doing 500 ToAs so gear like Moons/Mixed hide is better with very little downsides.
I wouldn't do a 500 TOA with less gear than this. I have before, it's not worth it. (That is the Wiki Guides - TOA video). If you need more in-depth explanations for ToA in general, I suggest peeping the other guides. This is more for those who've attempted high level invos. You should kind of know things by now. ToA Advanced Tactics has how to butterfly and red x in depth.
The next video will be a progression video and how to calc things in OSRS so that you can figure out with your own bank what you need to work towards, what content to do, etc. It'll be a big one, so it'll be a hot minute before it's finished but it is in the works.
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Here is the invo list he typical runs for 500 budget runs: th-cam.com/video/Mg9hcqcFC1U/w-d-xo.html
infernal cape is 300m for the service right? can you really call this budget?
@@toasty6943 Or just watch the video and get the joke.
@@MithDragonHe literally just repeated the joke word for word dummy, seems like YOU didn’t get the joke 😆
Clickbaited
300m ? I'll pay 180
I do them for 150
Was wondering if you have all your tile markers and highlights somewhere to get or rather your general plugin setup? just want to get into toa and stuff like that after seeing all your vids :)
also was wondering if you explain that red xing a bit more in details
There is a plugin video, and chat commands for tile markers at certain places in twitch chat! For Red Xing, head to ToA Advanced Tactics, that goes over all that kind of stuff
@@GnomonkeyRS thanks will check that stuff out :)
This is basically my chambers setup. Everyone bitched at me about bringing blue over mixed hide/ahrims.
Feeling very validated right now.
Quick question , sir Monk.
What would my melle gear be if im rocking Shadow with max maged, Crystal armour and bowfa?
Probably Bandos
my guy just casually checking the price of sanfews mid red X and nobody is even going to care, the click accuracy is actually insane XD
Lots of practice. Its kinda like swapping your gear while butterflying, just something you pick up doing (if you are a noob and don't have shadow yet like a stinky ironman)
Wait till you see him red x while playing two accounts. Lmao dude is wild
@@zamorakbrews7228 *don't have your mom's credit card yet
@@zamorakbrews7228another valid reason to switch is shadow to zcb spec on the shadows! This is a lot of clicks tho, and you need to have the spec bar visible in time. That’s harder than you’d think because most ppl switch weapon last (with good reason rly)
Bro forgot to show the invo list twice
addons are cooking the brain
Tanner impression was on point
I love seeing you on Kill Tony
CEEELLIIIIAAAAAA
@@domo7121 Hahaha!
LMFAOOOOOO 😂
"Budget" setup. Shows max capes. Do you know how much money goes into skilling? Some people are just so out of touch...
al these streamers are, "budget gear" but max stats. Games so elitist its crazy
mr gnome what are the invos you used for this runs?
How high would you recommend to push invo on my ironman with full bowfa, full bandos, toxic trident ahrims, zammy hasta no fang. The highest one I`ve completed so far was 365 solo. Without fang my melee feels like it slows down raid a lot. I am at 70kc Toa dry, What invo to stay in and farm for fang ?
I wouldn't really push past that until you have fang. It's possible but it'll be miserable.
As he said just keep pushing at your current level, I just ran 330's instead of 350/360 till fang but I got hella lucky at 30kc. I found anything higher than 330 was just taking significantly longer but I only had a d sword.
Fang has now allowed me to push 400+ it's a game changer in terms of time for kephri, baba, akkha cum phase. Getting yellow gem will be the next game changer, the healing features on it are just so OP for the raid.
ToA sucks. I greenlogged it to make sure. Dont recommend.
Hey gnome great video, I have a question regarding mixed hide and zaryte. I notice you don't really talk about zcb when you make your qualifiers to bring hides or not. Is this a worrhwhile combination similar to tbow?
I don't usually talk about it because ZCB is only 2% better than BofA and it's not really budget. You'd have to put it in gearscape and calc. It shouldn't be too bad imo
@@GnomonkeyRSIt's about 4% weaker on zebak/wardens then masori. In your opinion is that an acceptable tradeoff for 2 more restore?
The spec is nice for all rooms if you don't have VW. I personally would keep the DPS. I ended my run with 3 restore and dropped a dose for power ups so, just test it out and see what you personally need. More DPS always great.
@@GnomonkeyRSappreciate the responses keep up the great work man.
Nice to see a hybrid armor setup for this!
16:30 Gnome is talking about Fang having a "low max hit". This isn't the whole story, because all of the max hits removed get added to the minimum hit instead. Even if the Fang has a "lower max hit", the AVERAGE hit (which is what you *actually* care about for calculating DPS) is the same. There are many situations (happens about 1/6th of the time) where gaining 4 strength bonus doesn't increase your max hit, but instead it gives a minimum hit (which still has the same effect on your dps).
Mathematically, the difference between minimum hits and max hits is that the weapon is more consistent (less variance) and the chance of an abnormally long kill is lower. Conversely, the weapon has less potential to pop off (the hits are closer to your average hit). It also makes Fang a bad warden core weapon, which encourages weapon variety at ToA.
I'm not disagreeing with you but I feel the need to say something to defend his point. Although he didn't explain it well, he had good intention. The idea being not bringing the fang somewhere where you're fighting against low defense is that generally you're missing out on the increased dps a 4 tick weapon would give. Even whip is higher dps in a lot of cases where there's a low defense monster, slayer comes to mind for that.
@@Dylesxic that is due to the power budget for fang coming primarily from the double accuracy roll and *not* the max / min hit swapping, which makes very little difference to dps in the grand scheme of things (it affects overkill calcs and that's it). I agree with Gnome on that point, hence why I didn't comment on it. I was strictly talking about people getting confused about fang max hits and routinely ignoring min hits.
I similarly had to correct Reynolds on his budget ToA video. In there he was talking about a setup that wasn't gaining max hits with like +6 str bonus and reasoning that the upgrades didn't matter. However, he didn't realise that the setup was actually gaining min hits, so the dps difference did exist.
I actually have a custom fork of the dps spreadsheet that I maintain which has minimum hits explicitly shown to help remind me that they exist.
How can i get said spread sheet @Zxv975
@@jordymarquez4052 I haven't made it public, and it's slightly out of date anyway. I might message Koek and see if they're interested in letting me add it to the main branch.
What if you have a shadow and bp setup no bowfa or tbow? If you shadow croc, bp and mixed hide is fine for akkah and wardens right?
Should be okay
On baba make sure to pot range pot as well
@@GnomonkeyRS Thank you Mr. Monki
Tried this for a couple of trips. Bp with mixed hide, zaryte, anguish and quiver has 30% accuracy on wardens - 4,4 DPS , and 44% on akkah 5.9DPS. Bofa saves you about 40 sec on wardens alone, and if u somhow get stuck on akkah with ranged it sucks.
@@thalldurstill way better. Shadow + bp > trident + bofa
Thoughts on masori/bp/dcb/buckler having better or comparable dps in most places? Does that change anything?
Makes sense because of Ruby bolts. Bp isn't good when things have high defence and no drain. Unfortunately can't just range everything, Kephri would be a nightmare
Do it in the fire cape then??? ....
would you post your invo list for this run too?
Wild how you just do this shit and read chat lol you’re obviously the goat pvmer❤ can we see some PvP attempts
Never LOL but thank you. I have PvP.
Good video but since it is literally impossible to beat normal mode ToA without max gear and being genetically superior, im giving you a dislike
Understand. Have a good day
@@GnomonkeyRS the High Level Community came to my house, stole my shoes and kicked my dog 🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀
Cats are better. Unlucky
If I have this whole setup plus a voidwaker should I work it in? In general I’m struggling to find info on when to Bgs when to voidwaker and when to use Adren in toa
Baba you BGS until 20, Kephri you typically just VW, Akkha shadows you VW, Zebak BGS until 20 then VW spec, Warden you BGS Obby until 20, then VW (you should be adrened), then P3 is 30 BGS, P4 is 60 BGS.
@@GnomonkeyRSI appreciate this very much
I don't have a fang (iron trying to get one) and my mage setup is decent (what you have here + anc bottoms) so I do 4t butterfly. Is there a reason I shouldn't?
Also if anyone is curious, bowfa > pipe on obelisk if you hit less than 43 BGS with dragon darts, or less than 55 with amethyst darts.
4t butterfly is awful DPS, and its better than he phases to a different style so that you can do more DPS with fang/BP.
@@GnomonkeyRS I sucked it up and calc'd it with my midlevel iron setup in a 300.
Swamp Trident - 6.58
Bowfa - 7.51
BP dragon darts - 6.8
Hasta - 6.11
Didn't expect bowfa to be better than BP tbh.
@@GnomonkeyRSI'm curious. How would the calcs play out if you consider how akkha does a special more often if you're face tanking vs 4t butterflying. It's about 1.5-2x more often and it can be up to ~6 hits worth of trident hits lost. Would the significantly better DPS of BofA/fang more than make up for it? Cuz u do take less damage too, that's something to consider especially for a no timer run. I do facetank with timer regardless.
Is mixed hide worth it over masori when using tbow or just keep to masori/bandos?
Mixed hide is equal to Bandos but also is hybrid like Dhide. It's a build for dropping switches and gaining infinite supplies. If you're used to using Bandos Masori with no supply issues, then no
can we get a voiceover like the cengineer plugin but with gnome sounds?
Ahaha, maybe some day! The ZCB bolt proc is pretty good
Is it even worth bothering with expert toa without a bowfa? Im kind of burnt on the cg grind
No
deiron if ur not having fun
What invos?
When hes doing the red x, why do I only see him going 2 out not 3 ?
Hello, would you mind telling what plugin are you using for true tiles? for Baba boulders, Zebak water waves ETC. Thank you anyway :)
Better NPC Highlights
@@GnomonkeyRS thank you so much! BTW i really like your content! You seem like a wholesome dude!
ty for using BoTW music, it's the little things 🔥
stardew too
Ty gnomonkey this will help me get my first 500!
I hope you get the pet Doug
could you do a video on ur runelite settings?
I have! It's my plugin video.
what would be the best possible upgrades for this setup if one is doing money 500s?
Shadow
@@GnomonkeyRS anything less costly?
Sang would be the best upgrade imo. Tons of sustain. Bring VW for speccing.
Damn, wonder if reddit will keep parroting the mixed hide shit despite having no idea why it was recommended in the first place.
I saw this very channel recommend it
@@SilphBoss Yes, never said otherwise?
prolly cuz of this i sold bluemoon tassests for double the price today xD
i thought sang is bad at toa and a waste instead of toxic trident no?
Not at all. Sustain is is great and its +1 max hit.
Mixed hide is worse dps (Marginally, 0.01 lol) with fang compared to bandos if using any pieces of mixed hide loses you a max hit. If your max hits are the same it's around an 11-15 second time save for melee rooms. Bandos unironically is better because you save more time face tanking ba-ba than red xing which is around a 30-45 second time save due to 5t attack speed vs 6t, you cannot face tank with mixed hide without 5/1. You use more supplies but the supplies you used are made up for the fact monkey puzzle room is almost 0 supply now, and also using less prayer in kephri room,. Ba-ba damage through prayer changes makes it viable to face tank ba-ba even in 485s, keris will regen by the time you get low enough. You can use tank legs if tassets are not giving a max hit.
Yes, you lose a max hit but losing 1 max hit in gain of 4 restore for learners is better. Also you shouldn't be face tanking Baba as a learner. You should be red xing. 5:1 is better but you aren't going to get normal people to do it and definitely not in a budget learner guide when people already refuse to learn red x and butterfly
Is mixed hide really better than bandos with fang?
Now that you've started a GHCIM account, do you think a "300+ invo Ironman Friendly guide" would a video idea you would make?
Unlikely.
Tanner thing had me laughing my ass off bro Grats on lolz
So say I am an iron man not running 500s, and I don't have a fang I am grinding normals for one...is the melee setup still blue Moons gear? With best stab option? (I do have bowfa and crystal armor)
Yes!
Assuming I have both, is there any scenario where I would bring elder maul over BGS? It seems a single successful maul spec is enough to reach max defence reduction on all of the bosses. Does the doubled accuracy of BGS make it strictly better for all things TOA?
No EM is terrible in ToA. BGS + VW.
can you do a teaching raid with me on 300s?
The argument about DPS vs. Defence can be very succinctly illustrated in one thought experiment of extremes. Would you rather be able to one-shot a boss, or never take damage while only dealing 0? The answer is obvious, so the answer remains obvious when the conditions are shifted toward reality.
In reality you want a happy medium between the two.
It just happens that most strength optimized setups already have more than enough defence to reach that happy medium.
that rapid heal tech is so sick actually blew my mind
to guarantee a hit with bone dagger on kephri, it'll work during the animation wen it gets up after the first down
Im sitting here trying to plan a 500 on my weird ass iron with 6 fangs 1 shadow, 0 lightbearers and 1 anc top. Im at the same time high budget and low budget
wtf
Could you explain a bit more detailed what you mean by "mixed hide is tbow armor while blue moon is amazing with bowfa"?
it allows him to bring fewer switches. If you're using bowfa you need the crystal chest/legs for the damage and accuracy bonus, which means you bring blue moon chest/legs as a melee/mage hybrid switch as it has both magic damage and strength bonus. But if you have a bowfa then you don't need crystal armour which means you can bring a better mage switch and use mixed hide as a melee/ranged hybrid for the strength and attack bonuses. Doing this frees up a few slots for more supplies.
"I'll show the invos at the end"
...
...
...
Can you make a 400-500m budget, 300 toa guide? It would transform my gameplay.
This gear, plus voidwaker, faceguard, prims. Click bosses the same
Doesn't bandos still outdps mixed hide at like 400's if you have a cheese cape?
You lose 1 max hit for 4 more restore. Worth.
How you not gonna show invos?
Read the pinned.
in say a 350 raid, is mixed hide still better dps than bandos with fang?
Mixed hide is for bringing Tbow with and hybriding for supplies with Fang. It's not for better dps per say. They are pretty much the same DPS wise.
Activate rapid heal when you see it AT 46 so that the prayer activates next tick at 48 charge right?
48
invo list by any shance? :D
unless I missed it, bro didn't pull death runes out of his trident for wardens
Nope I forgot
invo list?
yes
What's the ID for Akkha's orbs?
!cumorb in twitch chat
@@GnomonkeyRS Thank you for the prompt reply! Keep up the good work 😎
blue moon jumped like 5m
i was thinking if you want a real new challenge you should run 500s or raids on mobile instead of desktop now thats a new hard challenge for you we all would love to see!!!!!!!!
I could also cut off my fingers and make it harder too! No thanks!
@@GnomonkeyRS lol i was just thinking up the most ridiculous challenge i could think of for you to push you to your limits after i watched a guy do it the other day on here. since you have done just about all there is to do in game. I still think you should do at least one video of trying mobile toa it would get good views haha.
Ah yes an "e" 26:45 . I also pronounce fed and feed, ned and need, ken and keen, met and meet and bet and beet exactly the same way because they all have e's.
the ultimate final janitor boss
When to use voidwaker spec vs BGS?
After you've BGS'd Baba, VW specs for DPS. Kephri VW camp, Akkha VW the shadows if no shadow camping, Zebak Bgs then VW spec. Warden dump VW specs. BGS p3/P4 then VW.
What plugin highlights the rolling balls in baba?
Better NPC Highlights
is this blue moon setup just for 500s so you can bring more switches/restore? im learning toa and am bringing bandos and ahrim currently for 150s
edit: i can see the dps is the same, but is the extra defense from bandos useful at all? i assume it only matters in kephris room.
Defenses don't matter in ToA, I explain that later in the video
Blue moon IS Bandos + Ahrims so you might as well use Blue Moon and save slots
Ty for answering. Bringing fewer switches probably increases DPS for noobs like me as well :)
@@GnomonkeyRS Didn't they remove the strength bonus from Blue Moon saying it was unintended?
edit: ignore me, I must have been thinking of a different set. I swear I saw them remove strength from something recently
Defense doesn't matter much in ToA
What plugin is your baba room for the rolling boulders to be highlighted
Better npc highlight
!boulder is twitch chat for settings
Sesh mans on a warpath
BABA
what if u got virtus with shadow. should i bring mixed hide?
Only if you have a tbow. Mixed hide is for range/melee hybriding.
@@GnomonkeyRS what do u recommend me to bring as my melee setup with bowfa for ranged and virtus with shadow for mage?
Hey Gnomonkey may we have but a shred of context 6:21 r u good
It's a copypasta comment that pops up in twitch chats from time to time.
@@ELVENinRs thank you this makes so much more sense
First!
Great worked with the mixed hide setup to 320 invo but couldn't get higher now I will buy this and try to get to 500
Thank you
I did a 350 duo and it wasent even bad with eclipse gear for range blue moon tassys and top and trident (req one) and a fang with mixed hide also no prims no avernic and only blood fury&occult
@@darkwatersx tried Duos red really dislike the monkey room in dous.
My biggest struggle is ahka I still haven't turned on any invos for ahka cause I don't like them already having enough problems in there
@@FLASHLIGHT_REVIEWS whats putting u off in akha? The floor?
@@darkwatersx not the floor it's the switching gear and weapon pray the whole time
1
Invo list pls
Pinned
@@GnomonkeyRS ty bro!
Is ZCB better than Bowfa in TOA?
With full Masori it's 2% better
on the defence doesn't matter debate. This is a lesson i learned from many other games, namely final fantasy 14, world of warcraft and magic the gathering. the ONLY point of health that matters is the last one.
There are a few problems with the mixed hide versus bandos.
1. Mixed hide is only good in perfect play patterns(red x baba, butterfly akkha, tick perfect attacks on core, prayer flicking in a near maxed difficulty raid)
2. Bandos for its price point does a few things nice such as (tanking baba, tanking agiles on kephri, gives str bonus for easy 2-3 downs on core)
3. If you are playing in mixed hide with two mega rare weapons, red x baba, bf akkha, almost every room is a zero damage room and at that point it doesn't matter what you are wearing because you aren't under any dps checks. Theres no threats.
4. The main point in the guide in which you posted as a "mixed hide meta" is the gear. Most players don't have "mega weapon" meanwhile your guide solely stands on the basis of having 2 coming together around 3b for both. While doing a raid that offers hardly any if not any gp.
Conclusion. I like the follow up video (this one) as a more realistic set up of an average player and i think this should be the video that is show to others when practicing or messing around within tombs. This set up is realistically good for casual 300 invo or lower easily. And most players will find that the gear choices within this video are more readily available. A lot of people watch your videos for item suggestions or help understanding content. While i feel your do offer a lot of good advice your last tombs video with the mixed hide was right with accurate information about itemization but it was wrong suggestion to majority of players.
I have roughly 1k tombs kc and i usually play with randoms or friends. And i have seen so many people come in with a mixed hide set up with a fang , trident, blowpipe getting absolutely railed and having a bad experience. Now let me be clear im not saying bandos would have made the experience perfect ot enjoyable. But it would have at least mitigated a lot of chip damage. You make good content and the community does agree with that. With that being said. Thank you for the content.
If you are doing a 500 ToA there's no excuse not to be doing red x baba, and I also DIDN'T butterfly Ahkka showing that you still have plenty of supplies to full tank him without Shadow.
Mixed hide with mega rares are for people trying to get kits or farm like an average person because it does indeed give you the option to bring in 4 extra supplies. Switching to Bandos isn't going to give you anywhere near that value in brew/restore.
I had Trident and BofA here and still didn't get DPS checked by Ahkka. Even if you do get checked, you can do the DPS skip, or Keris excessively because you have unlimited restores.
These guides are for 500s. Can you use them in 300s without megas? Probably, but the strategy is different and the skill requirements are higher. I make guides to help people learn and give them tools. Not here to baby them and avoid learning difficult mechanics
@@GnomonkeyRS in the video showcasing mixed hide you did butterfly akkha. This one you did not. Which is why I think it's a better showcase to the average player aiming for kits. Those of us who grind tombs, tob, cox are obviously still going to use butterfly and red x. But the players just aiming for that one kc for kits aren't going to. let's be realistic also with the changes to monkey room and babas hit % through prayer it's just faster to face tank baba. You might use 1 restore here but it saves the prayer camping and flicking on kephri if using bandos.
Edit: the problem isn't the people going for kits which is what you stated. You made your intentions clear it's the influence you have on the community. People wear mixed hide because you said it was BiS (you aren't wrong with your numbers) but they don't know why it's BiS and are taking it into the raid without megas, without knowledge, without experience. Just to get rammed by baba, kephri, akkha and end up eating more often and being low on supplies or failing the encounter because they simply ran out.
@@bane4743 he has been very clear that the mixed hide suggestion is for snagging your first 500's or farming. It's not his fault that people, like yourself, overlooked that part of the guide and now think mixed hide is good for 300's. His last video did indeed go over number calcs for why mixed hide is good at high invos, and why its bad at low invos. You should maybe rewatch it since you seem to have forgotten a lot of what was said
"budget" setup >includes bowfa, full crystal, full sanfews
Yeah. Don't do a 500 invo in less.
monkey room is guaranteed 1 shot (minus shamans) as long as you use the correct attack style - idk why you're questioning it
Is mixed hide + dcb a lot worse than bowfa even when taking into account ruby bolt procs?
Yes, it's horrible.
You mention dcb but not acb, is acb trash at toa?
@@user-pg2mi5rx8q there's not much difference between them
Compared to the mixed hide 500 with shadow, how would you go about just tbow?
Considering the full mage switch for the shadow, what would you bring with a sang? Would you just drop crystal for mage top/bot for a similar invent to this video? Guess I have basically answered my own question lmao. Would be sweet if you made a no shadow 500 vid ;)
Ik shadow is a massive upgrade for the raid but I rebuilt with a tbow for inferno and cox, team isnt always on so I send solo toa. Been pushing a cheese 400 with dehy, no insanity but turned on 'walk for it' and off 'ancient haste' as obelisk dps with bp ddarts meant I ate 2 orbs everytime. A combination of that and skill issue, I smash restores pretty fast
I've done a few budget toa guides with no shadow and no yellow Keris. JUST tbow isn't viable. You want as many mage switches as you can for Warden + Ahkka. BiS is ancestral, then virtus etc Gearscape.net has good tools for calcing what would be best depending on your exact setup and bank. No insanity is crazy, same with ancient haste. Those are the freest invos possible.
@@GnomonkeyRS bahah after watching a lot of your content, I can see why you say that! Mortals like me struggle sometimes xD Thanks for the reply, great content as always
@@cale2196you suck booo 👎👎
@@GnomonkeyRS what makes it not viable? could you not use blue moon for mage/melee and then bring full masori for tbow+bp? I also have a tbow, with no shadow, but trying to figure out how I'd approach 500s. I attempted overly draining but I got murdered at obelisk when my bgs missed lmao and it came to the 3rd set of orbs, but the rest of the 500 was okay prior to that
whats the plugin for the true tile under ahkha that changes colors that shows what combat style hes using?
Radius marker. !ahkkacolor in twitch chat.
i run 300-410's 8man with 4brew 4restore 1sanfew, idk why this guide has 0 bews
Because it's a 500 with dehydration on.
What makes the bosses instant disappear when they die
Entity Hider
ik you prob won't see this late but if you do, what about us non yellow keris havers 😅
Don't do a 500 ToA, on a budget, without a yellow Keris. That's my advice LOL
@@GnomonkeyRS probably not the best question sorry, what level invocation would you spam until you get one?
Just the highest ones you are able to. They are 1/20? You'll get one eventually. Might as well also push for purples in the highest invoice you can manage
Nerfing the only fun puzzle room in the raid. I still dont get it.
None of the puzzle rooms are good, nor fun.
@@GnomonkeyRS so why appease the people who don't enjoy the raid to lower the value for the people that do. Seems odd to say "hey well we know this game is torture anyways so we are going to minimize the torture" might as well log off. I am hit with that weird feeling after running the raid almost 200 times, now with the changes, after trying to improve my ability in that room, like I was expecting an extra step at the bottom of the stairs. I'm like woah where is the rest of the room.
You did mention in the video that Jagex has a limited scope, they can't do everything perfectly, and maybe you are right all things considered that monkey room is better this way for a technical majority of the player base. But the specific changes they made feel very heavy handed. It is a dramatically different room. More different than any of the previous changes, which I thought all preserved something essential about the room.
@@biggringus5499 no way we are going to bat for possibly the worst raid room in the game pre change
@@Tatercon i have a hard time believing people think monkey room is that bad when CoX and its insane jank exists. Yea i mean whatever its all preference I guess but they really just gutted the room, like they desperately needed to change it. I dont understand why they amputated a limb before exploring other options.
I don't know a single person who enjoys monkey room other than a handful of people like Reynolds. The room is shit, always has been. Nylos is a good example of wave based play done properly. CoX puzzle rooms are ass too.