Willow was never trained on witchcraft and had no instruction for the morality necessary in it. Tara's mother very carefully taught her how to use it and respect its power and the natural order. This difference between them is stark.
Sarah really should have got awards for this season. The sadness of this season is so well explored and delivered. This really is my favourite season of Buffy
About Xander's family, there's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment in season 2 when Xander calls his mother to lie about where he'll be, and he says "hey mom. ...Xander." It's implied that "Xander" is him responding to his own mother asking "who is this?" That moment stands out because it's clearly not Xander making a joke. His home life is a *mess.*
Spike really did like Joyce they both liked the same Soap opera and bonded over that when Buffy took her and Dawn to Spike as the one who was strong enough to protect them. 11:53 He also really has a soft spot for Dawn, and not just because she's Buffy's sister, but in her own right. 4:05 Yes, she would love to be able to just go to pieces, but she believes Dawn needs her to hold it together. In the end 17:57 she sees what Dawn really needs is for Buffy to share in her grief.
Of all the monsters, demons, and vampires that have been on this show the image of Joyce's shadow slowly walking by the window is the scariest thing that has ever been on Buffy.
I think that is the quickest I have seen anyone picking up the Band Candy music call back. A lot of reactors I have seen get it pointed out to them. It's one of my favourite scenes in this story. A quiet moment of reflection and echoes of paths not taken.
I feel like SMG definitely gets her recognition for The Body, but I NEVER hear about her performance in this episode!! The raaaange of emotions she gave to us this episode gives me full body chills, especially the ending conversation with her and Dawn. Ugh. I will never stop talking about her talent. Love her!!
The episodes surrounding Joyce's death have many moments that made me cry (Anya's "No one will tell me why" and Buffy telling Dawn without hearing what's being said are the ones that keep getting to me the most) but I've never teared up over Angel turning up until you cried about it. (I can't remember but it was probably spoiled by previews during the week b4 the next episode came out).
"What happened to light-hearted Buffy?" Well BtVS as a show is a metaphor about life and growing up. The older you get, the more you mature, the more serious your life becomes, you encounter and deal with more serious issues, and have to make very hard decisions. Lighthearted moments are there, but in the end we all have to grow up and deal with a very painful world...just like Buffy is right now.
This is why I love season 4 and can't even call it the worst season. It was the most lighthearted and fun season, and you truly appreciate it for what it was once you get into season 5 and thereafter..
So glad you got your wish of Joyce not coming back. So many times I see your hopes get crushed when something DOES happen. Great reactions, love to see reactors get so emotional!
As always, it's a shock to see Joel Grey on here. An Oscar winner on Buffy, I love it. Other shows can make that claim, but Buffy never gets the respect it deserves. This show was such a masterpiece. I'm still heartsick that it's off the air, and we won't get any new episodes. Spike screwed up helping Dawn, but you have to love him for meaning well. And Sarah hit another home run of acting. She's so consistently wonderful that it's a shame she isn't really acting any more. With two young kids, it's understandable. You, as always, watched with your heart on your sleeve, and it makes your reactions golden. Thanks.
Two things. I feel the same way about Tara. She knew what Dawn was experiencing, so she knew what to say to her. I feel that Spike offered to help Dawn resurrect Joyce because he wanted her back too. She was the only one in Buffy's circle that he truly liked.
which is funny given that their relationship began with her hitting him over the head with an axe and telling him to get the hell away from her daughter
I have a different take on Spike's motivation. He knows it's a terrible idea to resurrect Joyce, and he knows she won't come back the same. But he helps Dawn because he sees that she is going to go through with it no matter what, and at least he can hook her up with the person/demon who will give her the best chance of doing it safely/correctly.
🧸♥️🧸 When Buffy says "Mommy" it gives me flashbacks to Harrys letter on top of the coffin of Princess Diana, with the word "Mummy" on the envelope only. And yes, Tara is not only the best of mankind but of the world itsself🥰.
We have a saying in Buffy fandom, The Body is about the shock, Forever is about the grief. The final scene is my favourite in the series and I cry every time.
We always (rightly) focus on how Joyce's passing affects the Scoobies as the loss of a maternal figure. That scene with Giles alone is great at reminding us that for him, he is losing a close peer/friend and (former) lover.
8:32 Thank you!! 😅🤭🥰🫶🫶🫶 You DID remember this tune.... I just caught this episode on my own personal rewatch recently. I'm doing the whole thing now, inspired by great channels like yours and Jules' and emme's, etc. And I reacted EXACTLY like you! 😘😘
4:10 The way Buffy just waited silently for nightfall. The way Angel's first words are not an explanation, but apology for not being there sooner. Like they both knew of course he would come. There was no doubt in Buffy's mind. There was no question in his. That moment really gets me. No matter how much their lives change, they have a deep bond. And it's significant that even after so long, Angel is still the only person Buffy feels she can show her real feelings to
yes! It's reaffirmed in the BTVS series final episode chosen when she opens up to him that after all those years she is the most honest and vulnerable with Angel and vice versa ❤
There remain less serious episodes but they never get quite to the same funny, light-hearted heights. (Well with one notable exception! At least parts of it and you all know which one) 5x16 is a turning point for the show
That was the second episode directed by then number 2 after Joss: Marti Noxon. She wanted to direct and Joss was very insistent about it because he knew she needed to understand the technical aspect of the show. Joss already enlisted her (Feb 01) to co-ran the show after Season 5. Joss did storyboards and was around during 5x10 (Noxon's first ep) but he was less around during 5x17 because Noxon, as with everything, learned the process so well.
After the fallout from Joyce's death you can feel the pain of Dawn in Forever where she just can't accept her mother's death, and would do anything to being her back. This of course is a very basic human emotion experienced by many. You can see how Tara is annoyed with Willow for lending some assistance. Tara becomes very wary of Willow's increasing power, and the tensions increasing with them. Another good point here is the anxiety and pressure of having to deal with arranging funeral, wake, catering, etc even the admin involved after death in having to contact banks, pension companies, solicitors, etc etc etc it is really draining. Some terrific scenes with Dawn and Buffy at the end you can almost feel the anguish for the two of them. Brilliantly acted by SMG, again how this show did not receive awards is crazy, it should definitely be retrospectively recognised and awarded at the Emmys in the future for its contribution to TV drama.
Given how impactful The Body is, it's easy to overlook Forever, but I think it does an excellent job of bridging the gap between The Body and more conventional episodes of Buffy. The Body is so powerful because it's so...un-Hollywood. It leaves everything hanging. There's no resolution to anything, so there's no catharsis or release of tension at all. Buffy starts to break down in Giles' arms, and we immediately cut away. Dawn breaks down when Buffy tells her, but it's through a pane of glass. We see it at a distance and don't hear what she says. Willow never finds her blue sweater. Anya does, but she doesn't know Willow's looking for it and just puts it away. The only Big Emotional Monologue in the episode comes from *Anya,* who barely knew Joyce compared to Buffy, Dawn, even most of the other Scoobies. It barely feels like narrative fiction at all because it breaks so many TV clichés about grief, even basic rules of scriptwriting and directing. ...How exactly do you transition from *that* back to stories that are structured like episodes of television? Forever isn't perfect, but I think it manages the transition about as well as any episode could have, which is very impressive. We're given actual catharsis this time, and it transitions into more conventional writing about grief and includes supernatural elements again, while still being desperately sad.
I personally didn't feel the catharsis in this episode. I would if I knew for sure what"kind"of Joyce Dawn has brought back. But to have her disappear without *making sure* that the spell"didn't work"left me hanging and unsatisfied even _more_ than"The Body"episode!X-[
@@Nicamon Comfort yourself in knowing that you wouldn't want to meet the "kind" of Joyce that Dawn had brought back. Just like in real life, everyone, including the people we love the most, really cannot come back from death and we all must move on.
@@charmingjinx9379 Except this is a supernatural world with magic and gods and undead people of all kinds...you can't _exclude_ the possibility that there _is_ a way to safely bring someone back to life. At most,I can assume this wasn't the right way because it was too easy...if someone like _Dawn_ could do it by herself(except for the part where she had to steal the eggs from that monster)as the demon said everyone would try it.But apart from that speculation there is nothing that _really_ indicates that the spell wouldn't have worked.
@@charmingjinx9379 She probably wouldn't have come back right but you do remember in the zeppo the lead zombie guy did and you couldn't even tell he was a zombie. Of course the family member that brought him back was an experienced witch iirc.
@@Nicamon BtVS is so metaphorical - from the monsters to the magic. So the spell was really just a way to explore Dawn and Buffy’s grief and act as the catalyst to prompt that amazing scene between them. Them being able share and talk about their grief is important and that moment of excruciating hope on SMG’s face when she looks to the door and then her face when Joyce isn’t there and she kind of feels the floor fall out from beneath her again is just incredible imo.
let's not forget that Buffy's father's memories were also manipulated when the Key was transformed into a human. He not only refuses to show up at Joyce's funeral; he also refuses to support his daughters,one of which is a minor!he doesn't even deserve to be called "father"!
I maybe can't promise the show ever gets as light-hearted as the previous seasons, but there's still plenty of spectacular humor. The rest of the journey is well-done and worthwhile and plenty entertaining.
- While meeting places are few, I wish Buffy and Angel hadn't had theirs next to the cemetery where Joyce just was buried. - Buffy's breakdown at the end always gets me. - And the shadow passing outside the window still disturbs/creeps me out, as does the idea that "Joyce" (in whatever shape she was) has been making a slow beeline towards them through the areas of Sunnydale. - Willow needs to read through the content of books before she recommends them to teenagers that wants to do resurrection spells.
omg you're watching buffy 🥺 im about to go back and watch allllll your reactions to it i LOVE buffy. Idk how many times ive watched it! I used to watch it with my mom when I was a kid and i've rewatched the entire series at leasttt 20 times since then 🤣🤣
Concerning buffys dad. There's a theory that the reason he disappeared is because of the monks spell. They wanted Dawn to be close to buffy for protection. So they made the dad go away. Not confirmed but would explain his absence. He could also just be an arse.
Regarding Buffy’s dad: I had a hypothesis (reluctant to call it a theory) that, because the monks remade the world with Dawn in it based on Buffy’s mind and experiences, they also re-wrote her dad to be more in line with what Buffy fears (like in season 1, Nightmares). Before this, her dad really seemed like he was trying to stay in Buffy’s life to some extent. Now that it’s AD (After Dawn), her dad is AWOL.
The videos title slightly confused me for a moment because I saw it indicate "The Forever" as the episode's title. But it must have been changed as it was only doing so in the notifications area, and not on this actual page.. "What happened to light-hearted Buffy?" Yeah, lets go back to Buffy to Buffy's crying over Angelus, or running away or Willow and Oz breaking up.😁 Probably the only time I can put a smile face next to those ideas. This is a coming-of-age show, light hearted has always taken a bit of a breather to these more series moments in the characters lives.
I think Buffy's dad doesn't even know Joyce has died at this point. They can't reach him in Spain, which is irresponsible. However, turning up to an ex-spouses funeral? I wouldn't. My sister's ex-husband turned up at her funeral and I found it very intrusive.
It seems like they took inspiration from the way they bring Joyce back from a short story called "The Monkey's Paw". I definitely recommend it. In a way, even with having to protect Dawn, it's wonderful Buffy has a sister now that her mother is gone
I love your reactions, they are fantastic. Suscribed and watching in a marathon! You know, Joss had a matra of sorts in regards to the show: "Buffy happy? Show bad" His idea was that the show was at its best when Buffy was going through something, the drama, the pathos... The experience of life... And he was right... it hurts, but damn it if it's not great TV
I just saw Domi from DomiReacts watch this episode on Patreon. You were able to keep it together better than she did. Yes, you shed tears, but she had to cover her face several times when she was crying.
Joss Whedon has always been a fan of _The Monkey's Paw_ and its central idea, that nothing supernatural can come without a cost. It's been a running theme of the entire show, and continues to be one all the way to the end. Here, however, we have an almost explicit homage. And it is beautifully executed. Thanks, Miss Sofie, for sharing your thrice broken heart with us.
Besides all things that are already said, to the few weaknesses of the show belongs the portrait of Hank Summers. This doesn't match with the person who was shown us to up to 2x1.
Very true. I don't know why (expedient plotting? Or maybe they couldn't get the actor back to play him?) but the writing really does Hank Summers dirty in this season.
There are a lot of reasons why a parent fades from their children's lives after a divorce. Sometimes they meet someone new and get remarried, and that new person and new kids take over their life until it's been so long since they've seen the older kids that it's easier to believe they're fine than to accept that they've been a bad parent. Sometimes they focus on work or traveling or whatever and they use that to compensate for the hole in their lives and it's easier to not be there for their kids than it is to go back and be reminded of that failure. And worst of all, sometimes parents are like your high school BFF who promises at graduation that you'll be friends forever, and you both stay in touch for a while, and then one day you realize it's been a decade since the last time you two talked and you wonder if they even think about you anymore. The writers of Buffy gave her one caring parent and one who faded from her life for whatever reason the audience headcannons. It's a great example of not-writing an explanation because sometimes in life you don't get one.
@@Kayjee17 and you don't need one. ultimately, it takes two to drift apart. the less effort one party puts towards keeping in touch, the more effort the other party needs to put in. they stay in contact if, between the two of them, they're willing to put in the effort. they don't if they're not.
I just watched season 5 episodes 16 and 17 of buffy the vampire slayer and after Joyce died and watching buffy and dawn cry was heartbraking and really sad that it made me cry and I felt heartbroken too 😢 You could see that Buffy ( and Dawn) loved their mom! I have a question. In the episode "Forever", at the end when Buffy says " Mommy" then answers the door, if Dawn didn't tear the paper up after doing a spell to bring Joyce back to life, would it have been Joyce at the door when buffy opened the door? Why did Dawn tear up the paper!?
Come to think of, a lot of show's lightheartedness has been pretty deceptive. If the show is essentially about growing up, then it makes sense that during one's childhood, one would be more sheltered from horrors of, well, life. So a lot of early Buffy is dressed in lighted tone. But at the same time, the darker and emotionally devastating things that make episodes like these work? They have been there form the start, just hiding in the foreground. Buffy would talk about being a hero and do heroic stuff in the foreground, but in the background you had all her self doubts, her fears of disappointing her parents, her fear of being the reason for their divorce, not to mention all the traumatic experiences over the years. We ended season one with her getting PTSD from getting killed after all. Its just that since the show reflects growing up, the narrative, in the first seasons, like a teenager, does it's best to pretend everything is fine, alongside Buffy. And then, just like in life, at some point, one can no longer run away from responsibilities and realities of life. Does that mean the show won't be funny now? Well it can. As adults, we still laugh, even if we do cry more. Being able to laugh is all the more important as one grows up.
There's a thin line between dark horror, and cheap, tasteless showmanship. Joss Whedon for sure is smart enough, not to cross this line. Seeing the shadow of Buffys mother in the window is horror, but it's just a shadow, nothing more. Anything else is just in the viewers head. They had never shown a zombie Joyce, because they were fully aware, that all fans would hate it, and would have no understanding. And so am I.
Well, I guess you already know, since you're well ahead on patreon. You're getting a 1 episode reprieve, unless Spike's face getting messed up makes you sad.
01:09 - 01:16 🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐 01:17 - 01:21 Excellent question! I miss those!!😭That's why S5 could never be my *favorite* season! 04:08 - 04:38 💛🖤💛🖤💛🖤 08:13 - 08:22 YES,PLEASE!!!!😭😭🖤💛 04:44 - 04:57 She really is.🤍🤍Willow is my all-time favorite ❤ but Tara is simply THE Best! 🤍 05:30 - 05:33 SHUT UP,TARA!!!!!💔💔💔💔 05:48 - 05:56 Willow!You're *_reaaally_* a bad actress!;-P 09:37 - 10:06 HOW,though?She's a goddess,he's a human. HOW can they be sibilings?_!Are we sure he means it in a literal way?After all these years I still have to figure it out!!@-@ 18:39 - 19:13 Now I wonder how would have Buffy coped with Joyce's death if Dawn was never created... 19:55 - 20:16 Still...I wanted to know for sure.X-(
"Sister". My guess is that it's just an easier concept than "Demon Goddess placed in a Human vessel." For him. Mental shortcut. And yes, Tara is (absolutely) special.
@@Nicamon Yeah, he's not much of a fighter, just a messed-up guy that can't stay himself for any significant or predictable amount of time. Though as another potential romantic partner for Buffy, he does have a connection to the supernatural, but it's a highly disfunctional one. To be a demi-god he'd need some inner unity, or harmony, and command over his resources, right?
@@doug3691 And superpowers.Don't forget the superpowers!;-P Anyway SPOILER(?)... ...I really wish we had a backstory of Glory&Ben's 1st meeting,who decided to unite them,when,how...you know...the origin of their"Cinderella Boy"story!;-P
If it makes you feel any better, those 2 episodes are the saddest it gets. It still has its emotional moments of course, but they won't come close to how sad this was. (In my opinion)
When you have a great writers and cast it, would be a shame to just do comedy action all the time. The build-up in this episode was well played.. Angel & Buffy reunion had the feel of the season 2 pre-Angelus episodes.
Joyce would have come back wrong in any way you cut it, Even if she came back with more exuberant energy and positivity, there would be a shadow of death over her that would reek of wrongness. Death is supposed to be a finale that has no encore.
I would love to think that Buffy’s father wasn’t an absolute arsehole and that something was stopping him coming to help his daughters, but I think I’m going to be dissapointed, a class reaction again Sofie, keep it up, love from the uk 🇬🇧
Yep - just another teenage silly monster show. Right. I have always said that Buffy was the most realistic show ever produced. To go this far in examination of grief, and then point out with the ending that yes, we still are in a story with monsters -- back to the reality that this is fantasy. Amazing writing. I rather felt it besmirched the memory of Joyce to have her come back like that, but there you go. Season 5 is my favorite.
Concerning buffys dad. There's a theory that the reason he disappeared is because of the monks spell. They wanted Dawn to be close to buffy for protection. So they made the dad go away. Not confirmed but would explain his absence. He could also just be an arse.
The thing is that he wasn't an arse before. He did make regular time to see Buffy and looked forward to it. He aparently postponed a visit or two due to work, which one shouldn't let work get in the way, but it happens. He was even good at talking to Joyce and coparenting with her. So the theory makes sense for why the change. And the writers did confirm that they did change the character, because this season was about Buffy growing up and taking on a parenting role, which kinda required an absent parent figure. Both the monks and the writers needed for them not to just be able to send Dawn off to live with her father. So the theory makes sense, that in changing everyone's memories they had to change some other things to keep Buffy more protective and close to Dawn.
@@Logan_Baron only trouble with that is the gap between S02 and S03 when buffy has ran away. We get know mention (to my memory) of what the dad is doing to try and find buffy. So I sort of suspect between s02 and s03 the dad lost interest in her. Out of sight out of mind.
@@Salixhartlepool it is possible Joyce didn't tell Hank that Buffy had run away from home - because despite what she said to Giles, she still felt some guilt about what she'd said to Buffy.
BTVS 6x12 and Angel 3x12 are now up on Patreon. For full reactions + more: www.patreon.com/SoFieReacts
Willow was never trained on witchcraft and had no instruction for the morality necessary in it. Tara's mother very carefully taught her how to use it and respect its power and the natural order. This difference between them is stark.
Willow has the raw knowledge, but Tara had the wisdom.
If Sarah Michelle Gellar cries, I cry. We all cry. Extraordinary actress. 💗
The best 🥺🥺🥺
Sarah really should have got awards for this season. The sadness of this season is so well explored and delivered. This really is my favourite season of Buffy
Yes she should have gotten awards. Anyway she gets recognition love and appretiation from us fans when show aired first time and from new fans :)
best season of the show bar none, the others are good too, but this one is a total masterpiece
@@weaponsofwarfare9537 no no she did not. She got a daytime emmy For "All My Children" but sadly overlooked for Buffy
I mean she won multiple awards for this Show. "Best actress on a TV show" or "Best Performance on a TV show"
About Xander's family, there's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment in season 2 when Xander calls his mother to lie about where he'll be, and he says "hey mom. ...Xander." It's implied that "Xander" is him responding to his own mother asking "who is this?"
That moment stands out because it's clearly not Xander making a joke. His home life is a *mess.*
And his Christmas tradition of sleeping outside to avoid his family.
Don’t forget Restless where it is strongly implied that his father is abusive to him.
Buffy saying "Mommy" was a great reprise of that same line in "The Body" and the lead up to it.
Spike really did like Joyce they both liked the same Soap opera and bonded over that when Buffy took her and Dawn to Spike as the one who was strong enough to protect them. 11:53 He also really has a soft spot for Dawn, and not just because she's Buffy's sister, but in her own right.
4:05 Yes, she would love to be able to just go to pieces, but she believes Dawn needs her to hold it together. In the end 17:57 she sees what Dawn really needs is for Buffy to share in her grief.
Of all the monsters, demons, and vampires that have been on this show the image of Joyce's shadow slowly walking by the window is the scariest thing that has ever been on Buffy.
I think that is the quickest I have seen anyone picking up the Band Candy music call back. A lot of reactors I have seen get it pointed out to them. It's one of my favourite scenes in this story. A quiet moment of reflection and echoes of paths not taken.
There is so much in this episode. I remember discussing it online the day after it aired and only then realizing that it was the same music.
Agreed! I've never seen someone (reactor or not) pick it up that quickly!
I feel like SMG definitely gets her recognition for The Body, but I NEVER hear about her performance in this episode!! The raaaange of emotions she gave to us this episode gives me full body chills, especially the ending conversation with her and Dawn. Ugh. I will never stop talking about her talent. Love her!!
The episodes surrounding Joyce's death have many moments that made me cry (Anya's "No one will tell me why" and Buffy telling Dawn without hearing what's being said are the ones that keep getting to me the most) but I've never teared up over Angel turning up until you cried about it. (I can't remember but it was probably spoiled by previews during the week b4 the next episode came out).
"What happened to light-hearted Buffy?" Well BtVS as a show is a metaphor about life and growing up. The older you get, the more you mature, the more serious your life becomes, you encounter and deal with more serious issues, and have to make very hard decisions. Lighthearted moments are there, but in the end we all have to grow up and deal with a very painful world...just like Buffy is right now.
This is why I love season 4 and can't even call it the worst season. It was the most lighthearted and fun season, and you truly appreciate it for what it was once you get into season 5 and thereafter..
So glad you got your wish of Joyce not coming back. So many times I see your hopes get crushed when something DOES happen. Great reactions, love to see reactors get so emotional!
As always, it's a shock to see Joel Grey on here. An Oscar winner on Buffy, I love it. Other shows can make that claim, but Buffy never gets the respect it deserves. This show was such a masterpiece. I'm still heartsick that it's off the air, and we won't get any new episodes. Spike screwed up helping Dawn, but you have to love him for meaning well. And Sarah hit another home run of acting. She's so consistently wonderful that it's a shame she isn't really acting any more. With two young kids, it's understandable. You, as always, watched with your heart on your sleeve, and it makes your reactions golden. Thanks.
Two things.
I feel the same way about Tara. She knew what Dawn was experiencing, so she knew what to say to her.
I feel that Spike offered to help Dawn resurrect Joyce because he wanted her back too. She was the only one in Buffy's circle that he truly liked.
which is funny given that their relationship began with her hitting him over the head with an axe and telling him to get the hell away from her daughter
@@sirmoonslosthismind that incident is when Spike started to respect her. :)
I have a different take on Spike's motivation. He knows it's a terrible idea to resurrect Joyce, and he knows she won't come back the same. But he helps Dawn because he sees that she is going to go through with it no matter what, and at least he can hook her up with the person/demon who will give her the best chance of doing it safely/correctly.
It's not a surprise that SMG had Golden Globe nomination for this season. She was so good from start to finish👍
🧸♥️🧸
When Buffy says "Mommy" it gives me flashbacks to Harrys letter on top of the coffin of Princess Diana, with the word "Mummy" on the envelope only.
And yes, Tara is not only the best of mankind but of the world itsself🥰.
We have a saying in Buffy fandom, The Body is about the shock, Forever is about the grief. The final scene is my favourite in the series and I cry every time.
SoFie: "I haven't heard this in forever."
ME: I mean, you're literally hearing it in "Forever."
LOOOL
YES!! Exactly, nobody can do an emotional scene like Sarah! She's the Best
We always (rightly) focus on how Joyce's passing affects the Scoobies as the loss of a maternal figure. That scene with Giles alone is great at reminding us that for him, he is losing a close peer/friend and (former) lover.
8:32 Thank you!! 😅🤭🥰🫶🫶🫶
You DID remember this tune....
I just caught this episode on my own personal rewatch recently. I'm doing the whole thing now, inspired by great channels like yours and Jules' and emme's, etc.
And I reacted EXACTLY like you! 😘😘
4:10 The way Buffy just waited silently for nightfall. The way Angel's first words are not an explanation, but apology for not being there sooner. Like they both knew of course he would come. There was no doubt in Buffy's mind. There was no question in his. That moment really gets me. No matter how much their lives change, they have a deep bond. And it's significant that even after so long, Angel is still the only person Buffy feels she can show her real feelings to
yes! It's reaffirmed in the BTVS series final episode chosen when she opens up to him that after all those years she is the most honest and vulnerable with Angel and vice versa ❤
"What ever happened to lighthearted Buffy?"
Show: "Hold my beer"
Seriously it's not getting much or any better for a while. Strap in, Sofie.
Because the show will be very lighthearted from now on?
There remain less serious episodes but they never get quite to the same funny, light-hearted heights. (Well with one notable exception! At least parts of it and you all know which one) 5x16 is a turning point for the show
That was the second episode directed by then number 2 after Joss: Marti Noxon. She wanted to direct and Joss was very insistent about it because he knew she needed to understand the technical aspect of the show. Joss already enlisted her (Feb 01) to co-ran the show after Season 5. Joss did storyboards and was around during 5x10 (Noxon's first ep) but he was less around during 5x17 because Noxon, as with everything, learned the process so well.
After the fallout from Joyce's death you can feel the pain of Dawn in Forever where she just can't accept her mother's death, and would do anything to being her back. This of course is a very basic human emotion experienced by many. You can see how Tara is annoyed with Willow for lending some assistance. Tara becomes very wary of Willow's increasing power, and the tensions increasing with them. Another good point here is the anxiety and pressure of having to deal with arranging funeral, wake, catering, etc even the admin involved after death in having to contact banks, pension companies, solicitors, etc etc etc it is really draining. Some terrific scenes with Dawn and Buffy at the end you can almost feel the anguish for the two of them. Brilliantly acted by SMG, again how this show did not receive awards is crazy, it should definitely be retrospectively recognised and awarded at the Emmys in the future for its contribution to TV drama.
Given how impactful The Body is, it's easy to overlook Forever, but I think it does an excellent job of bridging the gap between The Body and more conventional episodes of Buffy. The Body is so powerful because it's so...un-Hollywood. It leaves everything hanging. There's no resolution to anything, so there's no catharsis or release of tension at all. Buffy starts to break down in Giles' arms, and we immediately cut away. Dawn breaks down when Buffy tells her, but it's through a pane of glass. We see it at a distance and don't hear what she says. Willow never finds her blue sweater. Anya does, but she doesn't know Willow's looking for it and just puts it away. The only Big Emotional Monologue in the episode comes from *Anya,* who barely knew Joyce compared to Buffy, Dawn, even most of the other Scoobies. It barely feels like narrative fiction at all because it breaks so many TV clichés about grief, even basic rules of scriptwriting and directing. ...How exactly do you transition from *that* back to stories that are structured like episodes of television?
Forever isn't perfect, but I think it manages the transition about as well as any episode could have, which is very impressive. We're given actual catharsis this time, and it transitions into more conventional writing about grief and includes supernatural elements again, while still being desperately sad.
I personally didn't feel the catharsis in this episode. I would if I knew for sure what"kind"of Joyce Dawn has brought back. But to have her disappear without *making sure* that the spell"didn't work"left me hanging and unsatisfied even _more_ than"The Body"episode!X-[
@@Nicamon Comfort yourself in knowing that you wouldn't want to meet the "kind" of Joyce that Dawn had brought back. Just like in real life, everyone, including the people we love the most, really cannot come back from death and we all must move on.
@@charmingjinx9379 Except this is a supernatural world with magic and gods and undead people of all kinds...you can't _exclude_ the possibility that there _is_ a way to safely bring someone back to life. At most,I can assume this wasn't the right way because it was too easy...if someone like _Dawn_ could do it by herself(except for the part where she had to steal the eggs from that monster)as the demon said everyone would try it.But apart from that speculation there is nothing that _really_ indicates that the spell wouldn't have worked.
@@charmingjinx9379 She probably wouldn't have come back right but you do remember in the zeppo the lead zombie guy did and you couldn't even tell he was a zombie. Of course the family member that brought him back was an experienced witch iirc.
@@Nicamon BtVS is so metaphorical - from the monsters to the magic. So the spell was really just a way to explore Dawn and Buffy’s grief and act as the catalyst to prompt that amazing scene between them. Them being able share and talk about their grief is important and that moment of excruciating hope on SMG’s face when she looks to the door and then her face when Joyce isn’t there and she kind of feels the floor fall out from beneath her again is just incredible imo.
let's not forget that Buffy's father's memories were also manipulated when the Key was transformed into a human. He not only refuses to show up at Joyce's funeral; he also refuses to support his daughters,one of which is a minor!he doesn't even deserve to be called "father"!
I maybe can't promise the show ever gets as light-hearted as the previous seasons, but there's still plenty of spectacular humor. The rest of the journey is well-done and worthwhile and plenty entertaining.
Yes. It's over. It's all light hearted for the rest of Buffy and Angel. I promise.
Me: Rainbows and bunnies from now on.
Anya: Nooooooo!
Not really. There’s a lot going on in season six. It’s the darkest season of all, even the saddest season was five.
Alyson can do emotional breakdown pretty well too
The name of the of the Buffy & Angel theme is called Close Your Eyes by former Buffy composer Christophe Beck
Xander's treatment of Spike is disgusting
I love how you basically said Tara's line before she did. (:
- While meeting places are few, I wish Buffy and Angel hadn't had theirs next to the cemetery where Joyce just was buried.
- Buffy's breakdown at the end always gets me.
- And the shadow passing outside the window still disturbs/creeps me out, as does the idea that "Joyce" (in whatever shape she was) has been making a slow beeline towards them through the areas of Sunnydale.
- Willow needs to read through the content of books before she recommends them to teenagers that wants to do resurrection spells.
I always wished the show exploded xanders abusive home life situation. Which would explain a lot of his reactions and world views
Exploded or explored? 🤣
@@bethechangebevegan853 omg I just saw that lol 😂😂explored
omg you're watching buffy 🥺 im about to go back and watch allllll your reactions to it i LOVE buffy. Idk how many times ive watched it! I used to watch it with my mom when I was a kid and i've rewatched the entire series at leasttt 20 times since then 🤣🤣
Concerning buffys dad.
There's a theory that the reason he disappeared is because of the monks spell. They wanted Dawn to be close to buffy for protection. So they made the dad go away.
Not confirmed but would explain his absence.
He could also just be an arse.
Sarah is a great actress.
The best 🥺
I have watch this show so many times since I was a kid and I still cry every time.
Regarding Buffy’s dad: I had a hypothesis (reluctant to call it a theory) that, because the monks remade the world with Dawn in it based on Buffy’s mind and experiences, they also re-wrote her dad to be more in line with what Buffy fears (like in season 1, Nightmares). Before this, her dad really seemed like he was trying to stay in Buffy’s life to some extent. Now that it’s AD (After Dawn), her dad is AWOL.
I am here for the continuing sadness 😢
It’s over it’s gonna be tough to move on but the next episode will put a smile on your face
The rest of season 5 is so good!
@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192 The entirety of season 5, you mean.
The videos title slightly confused me for a moment because I saw it indicate "The Forever" as the episode's title. But it must have been changed as it was only doing so in the notifications area, and not on this actual page..
"What happened to light-hearted Buffy?" Yeah, lets go back to Buffy to Buffy's crying over Angelus, or running away or Willow and Oz breaking up.😁 Probably the only time I can put a smile face next to those ideas. This is a coming-of-age show, light hearted has always taken a bit of a breather to these more series moments in the characters lives.
Back in the time this show was first aired, the rates always went up when Buffy was in pain... so they made her suffer.
😢
I think Buffy's dad doesn't even know Joyce has died at this point. They can't reach him in Spain, which is irresponsible. However, turning up to an ex-spouses funeral? I wouldn't. My sister's ex-husband turned up at her funeral and I found it very intrusive.
He doesn't have to be at the funeral itself, but showing up to support your teenage daughter and her slightly older sister should be his priority.
That shadow passing the window always creep me out, reminds me of Pet sementary
The drama wasn't in the show...it was all on your face and in your words. The real star of this series is SoFie.
he said he has a sister when dawn met him in the hospital in episode blood ties, the silhouette of joyce was so eery
It seems like they took inspiration from the way they bring Joyce back from a short story called "The Monkey's Paw". I definitely recommend it. In a way, even with having to protect Dawn, it's wonderful Buffy has a sister now that her mother is gone
Those episodes make me cry everytime
That intro was the saddest! We all went through it and there is a big payoff.
Q: "What happened to the light hearted Buffy?"
A: Joss killed Joyce.
I can't help it feel that it's getting better again. It never really ends🕋
While I realise I'm talking about a fictional character I still haven't forgiven Willow for what she does in this episode, kerk
I love your reactions, they are fantastic. Suscribed and watching in a marathon!
You know, Joss had a matra of sorts in regards to the show:
"Buffy happy? Show bad"
His idea was that the show was at its best when Buffy was going through something, the drama, the pathos...
The experience of life...
And he was right... it hurts, but damn it if it's not great TV
Are you saying there's a connection between Ben and Glory??
I’ve always been curious how Angel heard about Joyce’s death, I wonder if Giles called him 🤔
I just saw Domi from DomiReacts watch this episode on Patreon. You were able to keep it together better than she did.
Yes, you shed tears, but she had to cover her face several times when she was crying.
I gotta stop watching these at work. Don't want to explain why I'm crying to everyone.
Joss Whedon has always been a fan of _The Monkey's Paw_ and its central idea, that nothing supernatural can come without a cost. It's been a running theme of the entire show, and continues to be one all the way to the end. Here, however, we have an almost explicit homage. And it is beautifully executed.
Thanks, Miss Sofie, for sharing your thrice broken heart with us.
Besides all things that are already said, to the few weaknesses of the show belongs the portrait of Hank Summers. This doesn't match with the person who was shown us to up to 2x1.
Very true. I don't know why (expedient plotting? Or maybe they couldn't get the actor back to play him?) but the writing really does Hank Summers dirty in this season.
There are a lot of reasons why a parent fades from their children's lives after a divorce. Sometimes they meet someone new and get remarried, and that new person and new kids take over their life until it's been so long since they've seen the older kids that it's easier to believe they're fine than to accept that they've been a bad parent. Sometimes they focus on work or traveling or whatever and they use that to compensate for the hole in their lives and it's easier to not be there for their kids than it is to go back and be reminded of that failure. And worst of all, sometimes parents are like your high school BFF who promises at graduation that you'll be friends forever, and you both stay in touch for a while, and then one day you realize it's been a decade since the last time you two talked and you wonder if they even think about you anymore.
The writers of Buffy gave her one caring parent and one who faded from her life for whatever reason the audience headcannons. It's a great example of not-writing an explanation because sometimes in life you don't get one.
@@Kayjee17
and you don't need one. ultimately, it takes two to drift apart. the less effort one party puts towards keeping in touch, the more effort the other party needs to put in. they stay in contact if, between the two of them, they're willing to put in the effort. they don't if they're not.
Us: How can you dig the knife deeper?
Angel shows up
Us: WTF. TORTURE US!
i love your reactions and love them when you get emotional *HUGS* keep em comin
I just watched season 5 episodes 16 and 17 of buffy the vampire slayer and after Joyce died and watching buffy and dawn cry was heartbraking and really sad that it made me cry and I felt heartbroken too 😢 You could see that Buffy ( and Dawn) loved their mom!
I have a question. In the episode "Forever", at the end when Buffy says " Mommy" then answers the door, if Dawn didn't tear the paper up after doing a spell to bring Joyce back to life, would it have been Joyce at the door when buffy opened the door? Why did Dawn tear up the paper!?
You are one of few reactors to notice how bad Xanders home life was. It seems to slip past a lot of people.
Loved your reaction to Angel showing up
It is crazy. I cried seeing the reaction
11:57 Why do I know this song?
12:00 Oh shit!
i was 15 and my sister was 12 when our mom died, i handled it well more destructively
Condolences and hugs...
Come to think of, a lot of show's lightheartedness has been pretty deceptive. If the show is essentially about growing up, then it makes sense that during one's childhood, one would be more sheltered from horrors of, well, life. So a lot of early Buffy is dressed in lighted tone. But at the same time, the darker and emotionally devastating things that make episodes like these work? They have been there form the start, just hiding in the foreground. Buffy would talk about being a hero and do heroic stuff in the foreground, but in the background you had all her self doubts, her fears of disappointing her parents, her fear of being the reason for their divorce, not to mention all the traumatic experiences over the years. We ended season one with her getting PTSD from getting killed after all.
Its just that since the show reflects growing up, the narrative, in the first seasons, like a teenager, does it's best to pretend everything is fine, alongside Buffy. And then, just like in life, at some point, one can no longer run away from responsibilities and realities of life.
Does that mean the show won't be funny now? Well it can. As adults, we still laugh, even if we do cry more. Being able to laugh is all the more important as one grows up.
I cry everytime smg cries
Any bets that in 10 years time, SoFie will be on the toilet and some random thought brings her back to these 2 episodes, and SoFie will just cry?
Why of all things, did this become a thought? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Actually, screw it, upvote this thread because we need a lot of light at this point in Buffy
There's a thin line between dark horror, and cheap, tasteless showmanship. Joss Whedon for sure is smart enough, not to cross this line. Seeing the shadow of Buffys mother in the window is horror, but it's just a shadow, nothing more. Anything else is just in the viewers head. They had never shown a zombie Joyce, because they were fully aware, that all fans would hate it, and would have no understanding. And so am I.
Well, I guess you already know, since you're well ahead on patreon. You're getting a 1 episode reprieve, unless Spike's face getting messed up makes you sad.
This episode is heartbreaking 😔💔
Spoil much?
01:09 - 01:16 🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐 01:17 - 01:21 Excellent question! I miss those!!😭That's why S5 could never be my *favorite* season!
04:08 - 04:38 💛🖤💛🖤💛🖤 08:13 - 08:22 YES,PLEASE!!!!😭😭🖤💛
04:44 - 04:57 She really is.🤍🤍Willow is my all-time favorite ❤ but Tara is simply THE Best! 🤍
05:30 - 05:33 SHUT UP,TARA!!!!!💔💔💔💔
05:48 - 05:56 Willow!You're *_reaaally_* a bad actress!;-P
09:37 - 10:06 HOW,though?She's a goddess,he's a human. HOW can they be sibilings?_!Are we sure he means it in a literal way?After all these years I still have to figure it out!!@-@
18:39 - 19:13 Now I wonder how would have Buffy coped with Joyce's death if Dawn was never created...
19:55 - 20:16 Still...I wanted to know for sure.X-(
"Sister". My guess is that it's just an easier concept than "Demon Goddess placed in a Human vessel."
For him. Mental shortcut.
And yes, Tara is (absolutely) special.
@@doug3691 I agree. I never thought he meant it in a literal way. I mean..for it to be possible he should _at least_ be a demi-god...right?
@@Nicamon Yeah, he's not much of a fighter, just a messed-up guy that can't stay himself for any significant or predictable amount of time. Though as another potential romantic partner for Buffy, he does have a connection to the supernatural, but it's a highly disfunctional one. To be a demi-god he'd need some inner unity, or harmony, and command over his resources, right?
@@doug3691 And superpowers.Don't forget the superpowers!;-P
Anyway SPOILER(?)...
...I really wish we had a backstory of Glory&Ben's 1st meeting,who decided to unite them,when,how...you know...the origin of their"Cinderella Boy"story!;-P
I wish these were uploaded at a higher volume - compared to so many other channels I watch, even at the highest volume, this is barely audible.
If it makes you feel any better, those 2 episodes are the saddest it gets. It still has its emotional moments of course, but they won't come close to how sad this was. (In my opinion)
When you have a great writers and cast it, would be a shame to just do comedy action all the time. The build-up in this episode was well played.. Angel & Buffy reunion had the feel of the season 2 pre-Angelus episodes.
Joyce would have come back wrong in any way you cut it, Even if she came back with more exuberant energy and positivity, there would be a shadow of death over her that would reek of wrongness. Death is supposed to be a finale that has no encore.
you might like this series (Switched at Birth )
2 teenagers exchanged at birth, it's cool
I would love to think that Buffy’s father wasn’t an absolute arsehole and that something was stopping him coming to help his daughters, but I think I’m going to be dissapointed, a class reaction again Sofie, keep it up, love from the uk 🇬🇧
they couldn't get ahold of her father, so he probably doesn't know
@@nostrum6410 In other words, doesn't care.
This show is a cry factory and I found the beat reaction channel for it.
I'm just a year too late....
😔
But Jules is about to react to "The Body"....
Yep - just another teenage silly monster show. Right. I have always said that Buffy was the most realistic show ever produced. To go this far in examination of grief, and then point out with the ending that yes, we still are in a story with monsters -- back to the reality that this is fantasy. Amazing writing. I rather felt it besmirched the memory of Joyce to have her come back like that, but there you go. Season 5 is my favorite.
Not to defend the dead beat dad, but if his number is no good anymore, he may not know Joyce is dead,
I think you'd love Star Trek or Doctor Who
So glad Angel was there for Buffy ❤️
First!
Concerning buffys dad.
There's a theory that the reason he disappeared is because of the monks spell. They wanted Dawn to be close to buffy for protection. So they made the dad go away.
Not confirmed but would explain his absence.
He could also just be an arse.
The thing is that he wasn't an arse before. He did make regular time to see Buffy and looked forward to it. He aparently postponed a visit or two due to work, which one shouldn't let work get in the way, but it happens. He was even good at talking to Joyce and coparenting with her. So the theory makes sense for why the change. And the writers did confirm that they did change the character, because this season was about Buffy growing up and taking on a parenting role, which kinda required an absent parent figure. Both the monks and the writers needed for them not to just be able to send Dawn off to live with her father. So the theory makes sense, that in changing everyone's memories they had to change some other things to keep Buffy more protective and close to Dawn.
@@Logan_Baron only trouble with that is the gap between S02 and S03 when buffy has ran away. We get know mention (to my memory) of what the dad is doing to try and find buffy.
So I sort of suspect between s02 and s03 the dad lost interest in her.
Out of sight out of mind.
@@Salixhartlepool it is possible Joyce didn't tell Hank that Buffy had run away from home - because despite what she said to Giles, she still felt some guilt about what she'd said to Buffy.