Vertical Mill Tutorial 6 : Laying out your part
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ธ.ค. 2019
- This is Mill Skills, a multi-part series to help you learn basic machine shop work. Exclusive videos, drawings, models & plans available on Patreon!
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I've been a machinist for 40 years and you folks can rest assured you are getting the right info on this channel. This gal knows what she's talking about and has a great teaching format going on here. Excellent site.
Aww thanks! I appreciate that. ☺️☺️
Lee Barnhart Absolutely! my years pale by comparison, but I love Quinn's videos for the very clear insight (esp lathes, since I literally have not run one, er, this decade lol)
Lee, I'm about your age, having been a machinist in the turbulant 70's. Yes, she's bright, patient, and even admits the occasional mistake. I wish she had been one of the cigar chomping WWII vets that taught me. And made me go get their coffee for them.
I’m watching
I have to agree with you 200%. I was a machinist also for 13 years and had formal training. I enjoy watching her videos even though I know most of what she says. Because I have acquired bad habits over the years it's nice to see a refresher. I still machine as a hobby. Happy New Year Everyone.
This is why a accurate woodworker will use a marking knife to lay out woodworking projects.
"I like to observe trolls in their native habitat." Ha ha! The gloves come off metaphorically as well!
“Precision costs time”
Excellently stated. I may print that out and hang it in my shop.
Maybe make each word (or each letter) less and less precise, to show eroding patience? ;)
(Or not! If you've got the patience...)
"Precision costs time, time costs money!"
Cleanliness is next to Renzettiness. That got a good laugh from me
Loved the “Click Spring” comment. Great job Quinn. I learned a lot.
Great video. “Reckless abandonment” 😄
I just watched the cleanest hands on the internet.
Change My Mind! 😂
When I was QA manager at a waterjet company, I think I spent more time cleaning my giant surface plate than anything else. Everything that came in there had garnet from the waterjet on it. Drove me insane!
Silly question - can you power wash a surface plate ? Or would that damage it over time?
Darn it! Garnet!
Good demonstration of how to get the accuracy of a woodworker. By the time you eyeball the center to punch, then eyeball the center drill, you can get +- .020 or so. If you have a mill you would want to use an edge finder. If your mill had digital scales you can get +- .001. Marking a part like that is good so you can see where you need to cut, but not good enough for actually cutting and drilling.
I have had very good success laying out steel blocks say 10 x 10 x 12" to be milled into manifold blocks for GE turbines. Lots of intersecting holes, etc. Every single one checked good and was accepted. Sharpy is thinner and doesn't flake, use a very sharp wiggler in the spindle with a loupe. That's how to over come some inaccuracies of an old horizontal mill.
I always find a well scribed line in Dykem oddly satisfying.
But then I also believe that Narwhals are actually unicorns in scuba outfits.
Thanks for another good video.
Meow and thanks.
Love the subtle humor !!
Holy moley , this is the best tutorial I have ever seen on simple layout! Very professional and a bit humorous! I teach this stuff at adult education apprentice classes and you kept my attention span! WOW! This is great stuff!
Thank you for the kind words! ☺️
So that's why so many makers have Abyssinian Blue cats? Makes sense now.
came to see the cat and wasn't disappointed. Great video again Quinn.
As i have mentioned before, I like that you back your techniques with some theory. I also like that you add practical tips that make techniques easier. Thx again for all your efforts.
This was a hella-good video.
This is a hella-good comment. 🤣
@@Blondihacks hella!
Not enough people seem to know about Prick punches (no tittering at the back!)
Prick punches have a much more acute point angle than a centre punch and are used to more accurately pick up on layout lines. Use them to make an indent, which you then use to locate the centre punch.
For other people like me who didn’t know both existed : images.app.goo.gl/2NhX9aMpt9o475d96
Love this beginner series!
It's turning (pun intended) into a full handbook.
There are 1,001 videos on TH-cam on how to use a Sharpie. Yours is the best!
Third! WooHoo! I remember when they invented Frost pist, I ties an onion on my belt as was the style back then... Sometimes the old school techniques were incredibly effective, working to a tenth happened back in the 1800's.
Hi Quinn - I love your videos! Although I consider myself a reasonably experienced (although largely self-taught) machinist, I always enjoy the intelligent way you add depth, insight, and your wonderful humor to the subjects you cover.
I do have a suggestion - you have made some (oblique) references to automobile racing, and I'd love to see you make some videos on that subject. I'm sure you will find ways to add your fresh perspective to that subject!
Quinn, these videos within a few days have taught me more about machining, and with more clarity, than my college program has in a year. Wish I found your channel much sooner!
"If you just try to slap it on and expect to get a Clickspring video, you'll be disappointed"
That's some expert level reference-making right there.
He is the master of artful Dykem application. 😁
Hahaha, that's brilliant! :D
OK OK OK .. flat is relative! Stop petting that rock! Love your vids Quinn. The trolls may have their fun but I love seeing how low they can get.
Calipers are consumeables. If you really use them they need to be replaced every so often, don't be obsessed with them, use them.
I use the Mitutoyos for marking. The no-name ones aren't worn out yet.
Home gamers usually don't "really use" any tools compared to industry. We typically lust after tools long discarded by the pros. Including those consumables like end mills cutters and calipers.
Mr Pete's considers his surface plates as consumables.
And when I could not find the Dykem (Dykum to us old timers) Remover, the trick was to paint a little mor Dykem, then squirt oil on it, wipe with a oily rag. And I have no Uncle Bob! But I got the job done.
Captions are fun. I like this "bloody axe" channel
Boy I kneeded another Blondihacks Mill video. =) Saturdays are so lovely these days.
Yes I watch the last vid. ToT got my happy squaring stock.
Tony’s video on squaring is excellent!
She is literally This Old Quinn! I am loving this channel already! Been working on CNC machining for a bit, and I never have learned to manual machine properly. Fantastic resources so far!
Just acquired my first dirty old bridgeport. Thanks for the series!
Great video demonstrating the basics of layout. Great humor as well.
Hoping that the new year will bring you great joy.
Another great video I love watching you and listening to you because you take the time to explain how to do stuff and why it needs to be done that way thank you
Blue Dykem: robust enough to stay on a plucky R2 droid through 9 films covering a number of battle zones.
Is this a joke or the truth? 😂
Douglas, I once had bottles of blue, red, white and green Dykem. One day, I came back to the shop from doing something and my trainee ( a former body man) had gotten bored and painted evrything in sight green. Coulda killed him. But he was a part time boxer, so I just chewed him and made him miserable for a few days.
@@txm100 The Blue on R2D2's body is blue Dykem.
That's straight from Adam Savage on Tested. Since he worked at Industrial Light and Magic and knows most if not all of the builders from the original Star Wars film I believe him.
I am SO glad you mentioned 'perfection'. I do not use your comment about 'never finishing anything' as an excuse for sloppy work, but perfectionists,although their work IS very good,do not in the long run get much done. I feel better now...thanks! Great tutorial by the way!
Great video Quinn. I am just beginning to learn machining and your videos have been great sources of info. Many thanks.
Little known fact: all surface plates are calibrated to Greenwich mean flatness. Dont forget to calculate the relative flatness of the flatness zone yore machining in. For example I am in Maine which is in the eastern flatness zone. And don’t forget to turn your flatness flatness back during flatness savings time!
Quinn, I'm really enjoying your channel; the subtle shop humor with that sisterly cuteness. You do a very good job explaining your processes and demonstrating "real world" practices. Your content has me wishing I was back in the shop; making chips and breaking taps....
FYI: Sharpie is not "safe" for use on all materials or welds and is particularly forboden in aerospace. We were required to use a Trace Element Certified (TEC) Sharpie. They look just like a regular one, cost 5x the price, only come in black and the one size.
Quinn,
The caliper 'trick' is a bit like showing a naughty schoolboy how to do something wrong and then telling them that they shouldn't do it (but we all do from time to time). You must also be careful to have the jaw that is following the reference face to be as flat as possible otherwise the angle will change your measurement.
Regards
I just got my new surface plate last week and a 101 video on layout is well timed......Thanks, and Happy New Year Quinn
Loving this series of videos. Thanks!
Measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe.
"Hammer to fit, paint to match"
@@dailrharris9009 A very old ship's carpenter friend told me "You cvan fix anything with 6" putty"
If I ever graduate to a full sized mill or lathe this info will be of great use, but for now I'll stick with my watchmakers lathe and mill. As usual you keep giving me ideas ( get out of my head!) Thanks for the lesson and the smiles. Happy New year
I’m 63 yrs old & recently purchased a Lathe (2yrs ago) then a Mill (yr ago) .
👉95% of why I wanted these machines is for making Custom Detail parts for 1:25 Auto models. 🏁I’ve perused every TH-cam video for the beginner using Hobby Size equipment & Quinn’s quality of videos are HANDS DOWN, my Absolute favorite!!! 💯
💡 My only suggestion would be mentioning 😅the “SHERLINE”
🇺🇸 made products. They are PERFECT for what I do.
ZenModeling
Thank you for another informative and entertaining video, Happy new year and I look forward to seeing lots more videos in 2020.
Beautifully presented and a good reminder that tolerances matter. If the print says within 3 thou and you spend the entire day getting one part to within 2 tenths then your fired. You should have met tolerances and done several more parts that day.
Another great video, it was useful and fun to watch
Don’t get me wrong most of the other machinist on TH-cam are great and I enjoy watching them but this woman is the best tutor
END OF STORY AND THATS THAT !!!!!!
I’m not a real machinist, but I play one on the internet. 😬
Even more impressive !
These videos have been a huge help! Thank you so much.
So if I understand you Quinn, all surface plates are relative to something that came before, all the way back to the Giant Black surface plate in 2001 A Space Odyssey.
The first surface plate may have been a gift from aliens. Who knows where THEY got it from.
Blondihacks They did not get from anywhere. It's surface plates all the way down!
@@Blondihacks They got it from INSIDE the big black surface plate! _It's full of stars_
There's a whole machinist geek subculture in generating arbitrarily flat surfaces from scratch. www.amazon.com/Machine-Tool-Reconditioning-Applications-Scraping/dp/9996967085 is one entry point into this insanity.
@@Cenedd Yeah, I was going to link to those videos: th-cam.com/video/rHmsQEAx16o/w-d-xo.html, th-cam.com/video/-w4R2eAHHiI/w-d-xo.html, th-cam.com/video/Whyw5v7L70c/w-d-xo.html, th-cam.com/video/zwrTGVSxzJI/w-d-xo.html
Also, for anyone just trying to understand the basic ideas, here's a nice intro: th-cam.com/video/OWa3F4bKJsE/w-d-xo.html
Fantastic tutorial!
Very helpful. I appreciate your knowledge and experience.
I like your videos, Quinn. You are intelligent and knowledgeable. You strive for high accuracy in your parts and in your videos. As a perfectionist, I admire that in you.
Beginners need to understand the many ways that error can be introduced into measuring and machining. You go a very long way toward explaining that. Great for beginners to know that laying out with the caliper is fast and quite accurate. But due to the fact that the caliper must be angled slightly to allow one jaw to scratch a surface while the other jaw rides on an adjoining face, the only dimension that is 'exactly' equal to the reading on the caliper is the hypotenuse of the small right triangle defined by the two caliper jaw tips and the corner of the respective adjoining faces. This method introduces an unavoidable error by its very nature.
But, as you say, the caliper is very worthy of consideration as a quick and easy way to scribe layout lines on a part. Obviously, the caliper body must be held as perpendicular to the desired scribe line as possible. But to reduce the triangulation error to a minimum, however, the jaw riding on the adjoining face must be as close to the corner as possible.
I was thinking the same thing .
When you are looking to be as precise as 'financially ' possible then why would you introduce the inevitable discrepancy that will occur by using a caliper at an angle to scribe a layout line?
Tbf, I think Quinn stated that it was a quick and dirty technique, so , I guess you pay your money and take your choice.
lol ayyyyy calipers. I was waiting for that. ;) Also, a nice side effect of dykem's dry time is that it lets you double check your dims!
True
Absolutely! 😁
Line layout using calipers is super easy AND precise.
I mentioned in the past that I would have been killed if I used PME as a scribe. xD They're not mics, of course, but still calibrated. Machinist squares, combo squares, etc. are how I was taught for layout.
Quinn like you say the measurements are relative. And “exactly”is an abstract term. Using the caliper is not precise. Because the jaws are equal length you have to tilt them to get one to ride the edge, alternating the dimension..( probably not enough for a hobbiest to care about, but I just wanted to throw you a curve to the usual “ you will damage the hardened tips scratching thu dykem” bs😜😜 ) another good video. Always something to learn from your videos.
Ranzetti-ness is a virtue we should all strive for. But alas, we are but men... and women. Seriously, though. That was a great joke! I’m still smiling. My faith is a touch seasonal. When I worship Ranzetti, I Gotteswinter.
LOL.....so true
Very informative video. Thanks !
LMAO, you said HELLA! I already enjoy these vids, now I love'em. :P
Thank you for making this video!
You are amazing, keep doing videos please.
Using calipers to score layout Sharpie is frickin' awesome for quick marks that are pretty precise. I do that a lot for knowing how far from the end to turn down a part which will be parted off long stock. I also use it for what you've shown here, marking lines where something is supposed to happen/be done. If there are haters saying it's a bad way then either a) they get paid by the hour or b) they don't grasp the concept that some things can be +/- 0.005 and still function (+/- 0.0625 for the woodworkers...if they can read). I like your videos. You explain things well and show actual knowledge of your subjects. And you're almost as funny as ToT. Almost.
Interesting variations in the pronunciation of ‘dykem’. You pronounce it ‘dye chem’. I was taught by my shop teachers that it was pronounced ‘dike em’. While I suspect your pronunciation is probably more correct, I’m going to write it off as a Canadian vs upstate NY regional thing. :)
im learning so much!!! thank you
I use the aerosol spray Dykem for my layout work. It is easier to get an even thin coat and dries pretty quick. I don't have easy access to a granite surface or height gauge. My work doesn't require ultra precision (+ - .030) for most things I do, so layout with dial calipers happens all the time.
"Hella flat" I feel seen. Thank you for that lol
When I learned to scrape at Brown&Sharpe, back in the 90's I was simply taught how and why it is done. Many years later I learned about the 3 plate method of generating a set of surface plates estimated flat within .ooo2 per 12". This helped me understand how the first plate could have been made/verified prior to machines invented to do that (chicken/egg). I had no internet and had to search old libraries for info on Henry Maudsley, the guy who developed and published this process. Quinn, I have no doubt you are smart enough to understand, and curious enough to ask the chicken/egg question. And today, the world's biggest library eists in your phone, computer or laptop. If you don't already know how it's done, find that origin.
Big fan, you're Learning me my new trade
I was expecting to read some bridge underlyer comment about tangential error because when you scribe with calipers your calipers are inevitably at some nasa level angle in relation to the face of the part marked. Forget about tip wear lol. Nice work letting them burn out til the end. There is always something to be learned and its great to get any tid bits or chunks of knowledge.
Hella rad video. Also a fan of reckless abandon :)
Poor continuity guy 😩. Terminated during the holiday season to boot! Bad Blondi! Bad bad! 😜
Btw: great video! Thank you for your efforts!
Her tag about the continuity man reminded me of the opening credits for "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where the people responsible for the credits kept getting sacked.
Thanks Quinn
Good stuff. As of this writing, no trolls, but thumbs up to crush one when they show up.
I delete stuff fast and with extreme prejudice. Nobody gets to come into my house and poop on the carpet.
@@Blondihacks Copy that.
@@Blondihacks except the cat?
@20:08 - Exactly? Don't forget the cosine error! I use a caliper for marking out on the lathe (not my best caliper) so no criticism from me! Greight vid, thanks.
Only thing missing from the video imo was why the callapers might not be the best, and why people would get mad. But at that point, use the dials or dro
The cosine error is trivial compared to the inaccuracies of manual layout in general.
@@Blondihacks I agree, but it was your use of the word 'Exactly' that got my attention. Nothing is ever 'Exact' in the machine shop.
I would have cautioned the audience about potential errors using the calipers for layout as well. When using this method it is very important to keep the calipers as close to the top edge as possible and as square to the workpiece as possible. At the very least, I would have said this technique is good for +/-.015 jobs, and advised against if more accuracy is required.
No trolling intended, still a great channel that I look forward to watching 😀
@@nathanielstephenson7932 I agree. I put this too the test couple days ago - set my height gauge and caliper with a gauge block, scribed a line with the height gauge, and a second line with the caliper. What I got was a thicker line, so I guess the caliper line was maybe 0.5mm short. If I want to mark a center line on rough stock, easy to run the caliper on both sides and you know the center is between the two lines.
Before Layout Blue, or Red, there was Copper Sulphate, this was used at my Machine Principles class in college. Strange blue solution, that changed to Copper when applied to Steel. Anyone else remember this.
On larger jobs, we used white emulsion paint applied with a four inch (100 mm) paint brush 😱.
Excellent vlog Quinn, very detailed and very accurate, food for god's ref the hobby guys, If I may comment.
Thanks for sharing.
My dad used copper sulphate for electroplating in a tank - was great stuff, such a nice blue - grew awesome crystals when you let it sit. I remember copper plating all sorts of rando stuff like oak leaves. I think we had to spray with silver nitrate first unless my memory betrays me...🤔
Excellent vid as always Quinn! ❤
Yes, I still use copper sulphate solution from time to time. More robust than sharpie and less messy than traditional marking blue. Not too helpful with brass or aluminium, though!
@@pnt1035 I've used a can of acrylic satin black for larger items, drys quick, and very cheap. Good to hear it's still in use 😀
Thanks for the information!
I've always been cheap and use sharpies/permanent marker pens. If applied in multiple layers (with drying in between) they aren't so bad. Easily dissolved in ethanol as well.
Either way this is a very good introductory lesson in layouts.
Laquer thinner works good on dykem also for removal and cleaning
Happy New One Quinn. TFS, G :)
Great show, lotsa info, THANKS ! I am not guilty of "Reckless Abandon" but I am a suspect.
Indeed the surface plate could have saved me from using the mig eraser on a couple of occasions 🤣. I have a cheap $15 set of calipers that I use sometimes for scratching layout lines and save my good ones 😊. Hella cool video! Thanks 👍😁👍
MIG eraser! 🤣 I love that
Also, Lee Valley has a neat optical center punch if it needs to be very, very close. A Noxon punch - a prick punch and a center punch linked by a tension spring - is a handy thing too. Also also I like your being a bit of a dork; hard to be adorkable otherwise.
I second the recommendation for the Lee Valley optical centre punch. It’s not cheap(no Lee Valley tools are cheap) but with 8x magnification, centre punches are extremely precise and accurate.
This channel WON the MostCompleteInformationAboutMachiningGreatlyPresentedOnTH-cam Golden Award - 2019! Congratulations!
Going to 30K exponentially! Hurray!
i miss metric references, though
I’ll try and incorporate more metric into my content. Thanks for that feedback! 😁
@@Blondihacks Thanks Quinn, You're the greatest. I just love the way you can explain logically and didactically your issues. It's so elegant, fluid and complete, but them, suddenly: "...with the precision of 327 snerklews*..." and I feel my face hiting against a wall.
*Snerklews been the unit correspondent to 1/23 of 3/577 of a giraffe's tail.
"only good enough for the woodworkers..." ZING!!
Have you ever seen an optical center punch? They are super cool and work great for center punching very accurately.
Hi Miss blondi from the land (down under Aussie) love your teaching method if more teachers tought like you then young gen would enjoy and take in more. Love your work lady.
First time I've ever watched one of your videos, I can usually be found watching Abom, AVE or This Old Tony ................. now you're also one of my faves! ; )
Love the way you explain things, love the humour, and the cat!
I've just started learning metrology, precision and all that stuff for my projects, and as I'm in France ( used to live in the UK ), I use the Metric system.
I think you're just the Gal to explain to TH-cam viewers about the metric system, and why it's far superior than the 'old' Imperial system! Maybe in one of your forthcoming videos.
Subscribed! ; )
TURK
But what do you call a quarter-pounder with cheese?
@@yowie0889 I have no idea Yowie ........................ that's an American thing!
Over here we have 'Pain au chocolat' and 'Croissants' ; )
TURK
@@t4concepts All good, I was just having a bit of fun referencing some Pulp Fiction dialogue since you mentioned the Metric system and France:
Vincent: ... And in Paris, you can buy a beer at McDonald's. And you know what they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in Paris?
Jules: They don't call it a Quarter Pounder with Cheese?
Vincent: Nah, man, they got the metric system. They wouldn't know what the f*** a Quarter Pounder is.
Jules: What do they call it?
Vincent: They call it a "Royale with Cheese."
@@yowie0889 Ha ha ha, Yes I kind of gathered that mate, actually, It was the very first thing I thought of after reading your quote.
In fact, I'll have to dig out my DVD of Pulp Fiction later and watch it tonight! ; )
Just to correct 'Vincent' ................ They don't call it a "Royale with Cheese", but "Le Royale Cheese". And it's trade marked as such.
They sell for 4.30 Euro's, I just checked on their menu! : ) No doubt twice the price than in the US.
TURK
@@t4concepts Cheers for the "Le Royale Cheese" update. Since 1994 "Royale with Cheese" has been repeated so many times it has become accepted fact.
It amuses me (here in Australia) that the most interesting thing to those characters about a foreign country is the minor differences in an American fast food franchise.
Most guys here already know....but if you're doing a job with the boss watching the clock....you can speed-up the drying of dye-kem with a bit of compressed air...
And I used to do a lot of welding fabrication for Aero-Space stuff..... every drawing had a corner that referenced Every Thing on the whole drawing....
….20:00….'Trolls'....Hella-good comment..!!
I have a cast-iron one and left the height gage standing on if for a few months and it actually started rusting where the foot of the height gage was. Haven't dared check if it is actually ruined now but chances are it is =8-(((
The silver lining being that you can still use a fairly flatish metal plate to do minor welding jobs on it.
The blue cat cracked me up but the 2" square costs $144. Suggestion: a video on how to mill a coffee can full of 2" squares.
Shots at woodworkers in the last few videos... At first I thought it was just fun. Now methinks maybe an old flame is one. 😀
I'm just scratching the surface 🤣 🤣 that made me laugh!
Good video!
I like your work. I'm just a bit over with the amount of you calling random things "guy" but that's just me.
I have just taken a delivery of my milling machine from UK all the way to Poland and will start my journey with machining soon.
Keep up the good work!
Referring to inanimate objects as “this guy” is #3 in the Blondihacks Drinking Game
@@Blondihacks
Think I need full instructions for this drinking game😬 On the end of the day I'm in Poland so any excuse to have a drink works fine. Sometimes no excuse is good as well 🤣 🤣.
Just watched a video you made about finding a centre of an hole.
And......
I'm getting a wiggler 😅😅😅
Oddly satisfying :)
Actually there is a process to make flat surfaces without any prior reference. One makes three plates A, B, C, and rubs them in pairs, in all three combinations, with fine abrasive
Jorge Stolfi just ask Tom Lippman at oxtools!
Granite surface plates are cut and ground to be flat. Then they are lapped to the surface flatness of the grade you specify or order. Surface plates can be re-lapped in house (generally only plates that are worth the effort or cost).
If you want to see the process of surface plate lapping see:
th-cam.com/video/EWqThb9Z1jk/w-d-xo.html
It is a bit of a snoozer, you don't have to watch the whole thing to get the idea. If you have a lot of plates you can also buy a lap the problem is all of the special tools to actually check the flatness.
Sometimes you can find them a auctions at a fraction of the original price, be careful that you inspect the plate to see if it is in good condition.
For a low cost surface plate a piece of thick glass has a surprisingly flat surface due to the way most glass plate is made. Gravity does a good job of making glass flat.
It's mandatory to infuriate the Trolls and Shop Nazi's who have nothing better to do than gripe and grouse. I had some large surfaces to mark up and tried some Areosol Spray On, specifically Osborne Blue Layout Fluid and had great results, very even thin application I can highly recommend this higher priced spread...
Make sure you shake the Dykem before use. I had some that had "faded" to the point of uselessness and I found that most of the pigment had settled to the bottom of the jar.It is also available in black and IIRC red.
I find that the spotting dye used when scraping is much messier that the Dykem because it never dries.
Great tip. Thanks!
Great video thanks! Just wondering why you can’t use a sheet of glass as a surface plate? There must be a reason because it’s perfectly flat and very inexpensive!
Hi, I Just bought my first metal lathe, 9x20. What are your thoughts/experiences with a lathe milling attachment? Hoping it will get me by until I can purchase a dedicated mill?? Anyone else have a mill attachment? Thank you for your time and efforts making these videos for newcomers like myself😁
Another advantage of granite over a metal surface plate is granite will just chip vs. “push a burr” so if you do damage it, it’s virtually impossible to get a high spot.