With the WTC rule, of if the base can't fit on the other side of the wall, but can make the charge getting into engagement range, increase the engagement range to 2 inches. So this only work against big bases 2+ inches, with your models 2 inches back. When you use the ETC rules that is
WTC rules for building fighting is broken and strongly favour melee armies. Add to that the ridiculous amount of terrain on WTC map and you see why it is a melee focused system
When you charge they must be able to make base to base contact. By settings this gap they can fit thus you can’t charge. If done right with some units you can do this all the way around the building making them completely un-charge-able. It’s a unfortunate quirk which GW has tried to fix in the past but only made it worse.
@@EthenAKnot quite correct. The number u roll on the charge roll has to be sufficient for one model of the charging unit to get into engagement range (1") of at least one model of the charged unit to be called successful. If you can make base to base contact with one or more models u have to BUT if so you can not move that model with the pile in move. It's quite technical but might change the whole thing playing out at some point
It's best to learn the core rules before getting into this stuff. But even then, this kind of nonsense is the tournament style "erm actually" tactics instead of actual strategy.
@@dabo77777 this is actual strategy. this is understanding the rules. if i utilize this rule with my tau army, I'm significantly hindering my opponent's ability to bring fights into melee range. keeping them away but close allows me to take full advantage of my weapon profiles and in certain scenarios gives me two turns to dump rounds into an enemy unit before they can get close enough.
Great video to show visually this trick. One thing you did was pile in 3 inches after base to base charge. I thought that you could only pile in models that didn’t make base to base. In other words once the model is base to base it was stuck? I’m newish to the game so happy to be corrected here. Thanks
That's correct you have to base all your models if you can move them enough with the charge roll but to be eligible for a pile in you can not be in base to base contact with an enemy model
@@hardrada8407 yeah, for competitive play this is a valid strategy. Note that Competitive play players generally ONLY ever play competitive play, because of strategies like this.
not really a "that guy move", let's suppose you are in a building in a zombie apocalypse, that strat would look like putting yourself not close enough to windows to be hit and not far enough to let the zombie in, just putting yourself in a safe distance to prevent them from entering, same thing would go for climbing on the walls during the ages of castles and preventing them to enter full on the wall upper side to fight with their potential
thanks for this video. as someone who only just is getting into the hobby il be sure to ask my first cople of oponents to not do little tricks like this cuz it will just make me feel cheated and not learn anything
Under normal movement circumstances, infantry has the "breaching" rule, which means they can ignore terrain features so long as they don't physically end their move inside a wall for instance. By setting up just over 1" away from the outer edge of the wall, it makes it so that when making a charge, running directly into the wall means you end up more than an inch away from the target, hence outside of engagement range, but the space between the wall and defending model is too small to place the attacking model inside, as its base is too big to fit inside that gap. Therefore, by setting up this way as the defending player, the only eligible charge the attacker can make is to go around the wall, which is, as the video shows, is a much longer charge move than it would have been had enough space have been left, or the defender set up hugging the inner wall. The third example here has a mistake in it as well btw. A unit of 5 or fewer models needs to stay within 2" of one other model in that unit to maintain unit coherency. If a unit has 6 or more models, you need to keep within 2" of 2 models in the unit to maintain coherency, so leaving that small gap inside the walls for one model would have made that charge even less appealing, as the attacker may have only been able to get 3, maybe 4 models to fight.
This stops being relevant the moment you leave the UK be cause outside UK most play WTC rules which in all of these situations result in just need to be in contact with the building.
Hi -as i understand the rules a charge is only successful if the unit can maintain coherency. with a unit > 5 coherency is only maintained when you can draw 2" to two other models. there seem to be a number of examples where your unit did not end up in coherency. Am i misunderstanding things ? thanks
Was about to comment this as well. The third example, where he left space for just a single model, should have ended up with even less models able to fight, as they would have to string out toward one side in stead of both, indeed to maintain 2" coherency with 2 models, not just the one.
WTC is broken, it over weights the importance of close combat armies and makes vehicles nearly useless. Way too easy to hide behind a wall, charge and move into another building afterward (for armies that can consolidate as normal movement). The WTC rule change and map design completely change the game and unit balance, which makes it ridiculous that they still use GW points as some units are clearly better than others given the context.
@AlainPilon Not really. You just have to work for angles. Look at BT Highway pre nerf. Vehicle spam and worked well. Btw. you dont have to use WTC maps when you use WTC rules.
@@Lykandras I know that WTC map != rules, but generally speaking when a tournament use WTC maps, they will use the rules too. I have played a few games on WTC and everyone had melee heavy lists and I got destroyed with my monster heavy nid list. I was pre Crusher Stampede buff so maybe it is better now but still, it wasnt fun and didnt feel balanced at all as infantry units jumped out of building, killed my monster and moved back. Generally speaking, I find the GW layout better IF the tournament changes maps between rounds to mitigate the risk of getting a bad map matchup for your list. Else some of the pariah nexus layouts are skewed too much in one direction or the other. Ex: Map 5 (pure shooting) and 6 (center of death)
This is only by GW rules in the UK. WTC rules make this irrelevant. And btw, if you actually do this shit, you're a hobby nightmare and are hated by most of the people you play against.
So you'd definitely be my friend if i told you I do this but with a fight first unit 😂😂😂 Tbh when you go to tournaments stuff like this is seen by all the best players you pretty much need to do it against melee armies
@@chaosclgI'm not sure what you mean. I can be your friend, even if I dislike your playstyle. There is no doubt that the best players do this, its a disgusting exploit as I said. If someone wants to be the best, they're going the sacrifice the spirit of the game to secure the win.
@@kingdragune123 Is it? really? i challenge you to point me to that official ruling. 2 Things can happen - if I'm right, and there's no such ruling, it solidifies that it is indeed a disgusting exploit, but if you're right, it will be yet another nail in the coffin, that 40K is dead.
With the WTC rule, of if the base can't fit on the other side of the wall, but can make the charge getting into engagement range, increase the engagement range to 2 inches. So this only work against big bases 2+ inches, with your models 2 inches back. When you use the ETC rules that is
With GW rules, it works like this. But not with WTC. Most of the tournaments in my zone re held using WTC rules.
New player, can you explain why it wouldn't work with WTC rules?
They faq so u get 2 inch engagement if your op does something like this @haloend
Thankfully, this sounds horrible
WTC rules for building fighting is broken and strongly favour melee armies. Add to that the ridiculous amount of terrain on WTC map and you see why it is a melee focused system
@@AlainPilonVery true.
Lovely Video, nice seeing it irl rather than in TTS, would love to know where you got your measurement sticks from
I have the exact same measurement stick it’s off Etsy
I would say maybe this technically works, but most people aren't going to do this in a game.
This wouldn't work with the top layers of the ruins though, They would just be set on the second floor and would be swinging.
This. It will still make the charge longer as they need to make the vertical movement. But not unchargeable.
New to the game, what have you done here? Made less of a gap in the building than their bases? So they can't come through the wall?
When you charge they must be able to make base to base contact. By settings this gap they can fit thus you can’t charge. If done right with some units you can do this all the way around the building making them completely un-charge-able. It’s a unfortunate quirk which GW has tried to fix in the past but only made it worse.
@@EthenAKnot quite correct. The number u roll on the charge roll has to be sufficient for one model of the charging unit to get into engagement range (1") of at least one model of the charged unit to be called successful. If you can make base to base contact with one or more models u have to BUT if so you can not move that model with the pile in move. It's quite technical but might change the whole thing playing out at some point
It's best to learn the core rules before getting into this stuff. But even then, this kind of nonsense is the tournament style "erm actually" tactics instead of actual strategy.
@@dabo77777 good luck winning against high level opponents without using this correctly
@@dabo77777 this is actual strategy. this is understanding the rules. if i utilize this rule with my tau army, I'm significantly hindering my opponent's ability to bring fights into melee range. keeping them away but close allows me to take full advantage of my weapon profiles and in certain scenarios gives me two turns to dump rounds into an enemy unit before they can get close enough.
Great video to show visually this trick. One thing you did was pile in 3 inches after base to base charge. I thought that you could only pile in models that didn’t make base to base. In other words once the model is base to base it was stuck?
I’m newish to the game so happy to be corrected here. Thanks
That's correct you have to base all your models if you can move them enough with the charge roll but to be eligible for a pile in you can not be in base to base contact with an enemy model
tbh this is a "that guy move"
it is legal, it is effective, but as soon as someone plays like this alot of people will avoid to play with you
Yep, hobby nightmare type guy
I’m going to respectfully disagree for competitive play. It’s just another nuance in the movement mechanics.
@@hardrada8407 yeah, for competitive play this is a valid strategy. Note that Competitive play players generally ONLY ever play competitive play, because of strategies like this.
@@hardrada8407 tournaments and competitive play are just the most visible aspect of the hobby. And they're honestly a very small part of it.
not really a "that guy move", let's suppose you are in a building in a zombie apocalypse, that strat would look like putting yourself not close enough to windows to be hit and not far enough to let the zombie in, just putting yourself in a safe distance to prevent them from entering, same thing would go for climbing on the walls during the ages of castles and preventing them to enter full on the wall upper side to fight with their potential
thanks for this video. as someone who only just is getting into the hobby il be sure to ask my first cople of oponents to not do little tricks like this cuz it will just make me feel cheated and not learn anything
What technique did you use to base the Ultramarine terminators in this video?
This is a great tip.
what about going above them through the terrain? than you dont have to go around.
What terrain is this? I like the design, could you recommend?
3.7k views....thats awesome 👌
You have to move the models around the terrain buildings!?
No space for them inside the building. The gap is too small.
Under normal movement circumstances, infantry has the "breaching" rule, which means they can ignore terrain features so long as they don't physically end their move inside a wall for instance. By setting up just over 1" away from the outer edge of the wall, it makes it so that when making a charge, running directly into the wall means you end up more than an inch away from the target, hence outside of engagement range, but the space between the wall and defending model is too small to place the attacking model inside, as its base is too big to fit inside that gap.
Therefore, by setting up this way as the defending player, the only eligible charge the attacker can make is to go around the wall, which is, as the video shows, is a much longer charge move than it would have been had enough space have been left, or the defender set up hugging the inner wall.
The third example here has a mistake in it as well btw. A unit of 5 or fewer models needs to stay within 2" of one other model in that unit to maintain unit coherency. If a unit has 6 or more models, you need to keep within 2" of 2 models in the unit to maintain coherency, so leaving that small gap inside the walls for one model would have made that charge even less appealing, as the attacker may have only been able to get 3, maybe 4 models to fight.
This stops being relevant the moment you leave the UK be cause outside UK most play WTC rules which in all of these situations result in just need to be in contact with the building.
Hi -as i understand the rules a charge is only successful if the unit can maintain coherency. with a unit > 5 coherency is only maintained when you can draw 2" to two other models. there seem to be a number of examples where your unit did not end up in coherency. Am i misunderstanding things ? thanks
Was about to comment this as well. The third example, where he left space for just a single model, should have ended up with even less models able to fight, as they would have to string out toward one side in stead of both, indeed to maintain 2" coherency with 2 models, not just the one.
@@maxmagnus377 his 3rd example was fine. he explained how his coherency was in danger, but all the units were within two inches of at least 2 units.
I still feel like this is cheating
Bro that's filthy. 😂 Interesting though.
This is why I play WTC. No magic boxes to prevent CC.
WTC is broken, it over weights the importance of close combat armies and makes vehicles nearly useless. Way too easy to hide behind a wall, charge and move into another building afterward (for armies that can consolidate as normal movement). The WTC rule change and map design completely change the game and unit balance, which makes it ridiculous that they still use GW points as some units are clearly better than others given the context.
@AlainPilon Not really. You just have to work for angles. Look at BT Highway pre nerf. Vehicle spam and worked well.
Btw. you dont have to use WTC maps when you use WTC rules.
@@Lykandras I know that WTC map != rules, but generally speaking when a tournament use WTC maps, they will use the rules too. I have played a few games on WTC and everyone had melee heavy lists and I got destroyed with my monster heavy nid list. I was pre Crusher Stampede buff so maybe it is better now but still, it wasnt fun and didnt feel balanced at all as infantry units jumped out of building, killed my monster and moved back. Generally speaking, I find the GW layout better IF the tournament changes maps between rounds to mitigate the risk of getting a bad map matchup for your list. Else some of the pariah nexus layouts are skewed too much in one direction or the other. Ex: Map 5 (pure shooting) and 6 (center of death)
This is only by GW rules in the UK. WTC rules make this irrelevant. And btw, if you actually do this shit, you're a hobby nightmare and are hated by most of the people you play against.
I have always hated people that do crap like this. They are insufferable and ruin the hobby because this garbage often leaks into even friendly games
Disgusting exploit of the rules. 10th is bad enough as is, but you completely missed the point of the game.
So you'd definitely be my friend if i told you I do this but with a fight first unit 😂😂😂
Tbh when you go to tournaments stuff like this is seen by all the best players you pretty much need to do it against melee armies
Sure it might suck, but its the offical ruling
@@chaosclgI'm not sure what you mean. I can be your friend, even if I dislike your playstyle.
There is no doubt that the best players do this, its a disgusting exploit as I said. If someone wants to be the best, they're going the sacrifice the spirit of the game to secure the win.
@@kingdragune123 Is it? really? i challenge you to point me to that official ruling.
2 Things can happen - if I'm right, and there's no such ruling, it solidifies that it is indeed a disgusting exploit, but if you're right, it will be yet another nail in the coffin, that 40K is dead.
@@BadMoon7555 😂😂😂 chill out the worlds not going to end