Seven V The perpetrators were very young children. The human brain isn’t fully developed until the mid-20s. These girls created their own fantasy world, as children will do.
Could you do a video on June and Jennifer Gibbons, the identical twin girls who would refuse to speak to anyone but each other and even developed a private language. I'm an identical twin myself so that case fascinates me
Seconded! The Silent Twins are a fascinating case, especially regarding the interplay of genetics, family life and societal factors like racism, sexism and bullying in the formation of mental illness and of course the relationship of mental illness and delinquency and violence. Also art and creativity, given the Twins literary ambitions...
I love that you don't sensationalize this type of case and discuss it with compassion toward all involved. 30 years ago I began working in forensic psychology thinking that I would be dealing with monsters. I was wrong and most were much more like me than I had previously thought. I began to see that under certain circumstances, I could be the murderer. I am grateful that I do not have certain mental infirmities and grew up in a better environment than most of my patients. I came to care very much for some people that I could not recommend to be released from the hospital. If I'm not mistaken you seem to have the temperament, care, and careful analysis of a good forensic psychologist.
Huh excuse me monsters are real, who do you think goes around killing their best friends or anyone? No one you can think slender man is real, I’m not saying that people are allowed to have beliefs and if you want to think a slender man is real Then I’ll support that I’m not saying people can’t think he’s real, but when you plan to kill someone including your best friend or more then one friend, that’s not ok then it’s time to get off the internet, right away, people believe lots of things but don’t attempt to kill anyone,
@@leighhoppins9273 I agree with you. The people I work with have severe mental illnesses and sometimes severe trauma from abuse. With proper medications they can be managed safely in controlled environments. If anyone is thinking of harming someone else because of the internet it is time to get some help.
@@leighhoppins9273 I don't think his point is that monsters *aren't* real, it's that the line between monsters and how we think of ourselves is thinner than we often think. Not that everyone is capable of murder, but imagining oneself born in certain environments (abuse, poor role models, low opportunity) and with certain genetic predispositions; one can see themselves in a much darker place.
That must be a hard job to do. I had considered forensic biology for a career when I was a teenager, but realized I’d have to deal with a lot of sad stuff, and decided I’d be terrible at it. I avoided becoming a doctor for the same reason. I don’t know how people like you face that kind of suffering every day, tbh
There’s also the case of Shelia Eddy and Rachel Shoaf in their killing of “friend” Skylar Neese. This one is particularly interesting because of the lack of external influence on these girls’ criminal behavior. Quite plainly, they carried out the plan seemingly out of sheer malice. It would be nice to hear your take on that case. As always, thanks for sharing your insight.
@@mouseyman Yes, I thought the same - it's the same scenario but with a dead victim. One of the girls is a true psycho the other one just goes along for some reason.
I remember when Slenderman was the scariest thing to me. My parents were actually watching a news story about this case but I wasn’t allowed to watch it because it was passed my bed time but I heard the name slenderman and I was thinking that he must have been real if the news was talking about him.
I have a very naive kid, that believes just about everything she hears to be true. I've spent countless hours explaining these things to her. Slenderman, that creepy doll face that circulated a couple of years ago, movie magic etc. If we never explain these things to our kids, they might grow up susceptible to these types of influences. We need to instill some skeptiscism and rational analytic thought. I mean, worst case scenario they'd end up drinking the kool-aid...
Chara Mia Sometimes no matter how much you show your kid some things aren’t real and show them how they’re made, fantasies can be very appealing and tempting to believe, even to adults. Maybe ones adults believe in are not as clearly unrealistic as Slenderman, but with photoshop and modern advertising, people believe in many fantasies themselves without realizing it. I mean, how many fully grown, adult human beings think that bigfoot is real, or ghosts are real? Or that a diet pill that can help you lose weight fast is real? Or that the nigerian prince asking for your money through email is real? I could go on and on.. We like to think kids are gullible and adults know better, but the scary truth is anyone could be tricked into drinking the metaphorical kool-aid. Shared psychosis isn’t two equally psychotic people coming together. The one who has delusions imposed on them could be any one of us. Heck, it was me when I was 10 years old. I think you have the right idea though! You’re showing your child how to develop these interests in a way that isn’t focused on feeling fear, and that is very healthy!
Same, a little after this story was on the news, I happened to look up slender man on my tablet, and while my mom was using it she saw the search. No wonder she was so panicked!
I remember watching interviews with the parents, it was so hard not to judge and dislike them, I knew there was nothing that could have predicted this, but there's a lot of emotion in this case. What stuck with me the most was how betrayed Payton must feel. I couldn't imagine how I could trust or anyone enough to make friends if that happened to me at that age.
Seriously. That poor young victim must have been extremely affected for the rest of her life. With that many stab wounds, her recovery would have been brutal and terrifying, and I wouldn't be surprised if she has lasting physical problems. And that's not even counting the effects on her ability to be in relationships ever again.
I thought the parents were clueless also. Of course they could not possibly have predicted that their children would plot to kill someone, but they seemed to be really unaware of the extent of their children's problems, or unconcerned about them, and really interested in somehow trying to drum up sympathy for themselves. Especially that one mother who whose husband was actually schizophrenic, and she KNEW IT. Maybe that's a clue that you need to not ignore your child's odd behavior? And how is it that marrying a guy with schizophrenia, and having children with him, seemed to her like reasonable life choice in the first place?
@@natekeyes2297 you know it’s possible that she didn’t know he was schizophrenic until after they had kids, right? Like it comes on pretty early, but it can hit as late as 30. Plenty of time to have kids right there. Also, schizophrenics are almost never violent. That being said, j wouldn’t have kids with a schizophrenic, even if they had it under control. Genes are a bitch.
@Nate Keyes Her husband was diagnosed with Schizophrenia after Morgan was born. It was the main reason for the dissolution of their marriage. It’s tricky, from what I understand the doctors told her mother they couldn’t diagnose her daughter with schizophrenia as she was “too young”.
I do place blame on Morgan’s parents. They knew that her father was schizophrenic and that it was an inherited mental illness. Yet, It seems they took no steps to have her evaluated and seemed to be completely unaware of Morgan’s problems fitting in socially at school. Her parents appeared to be disengaged and had they been more vigilant, Morgan might have received proper treatment so that this incident could have been prevented.
I REALLY identify with the victim Payton, but also Anissa in this case, because I remember being almost exactly in her shoes with an abusive “friend” at almost exactly the same age. I am convinced it gave me induced psychosis at the time looking back on it. I had just moved schools due to bullying at age 10 and met a girl who was a bit off, but she was the only one who liked me, so as she revealed she had many mystical delusions I ended up believing them for a while. She believed she was part wolf and a goddess and would use it as an excuse to touch me without consent or to be overly violent. She said that the real world was out to get her and I would be hurting her if I told any adults. She would tell me how much she wanted to murder her parents in graphic detail, and she would threaten suicide if I ever tried to leave the relationship. I was stuck with her for 3 whole years... I remembered having horrible nightmares and seeing things out of my window at night. I tried to tell adults around me, but this girl used my diagnosis of ASD to invalidate my claims of her violent suicidal and erratic behavior as being misunderstood jokes. I legitimately think if that girl had the means to at that time, she would’ve sacrificed me to slenderman too. She even liked slenderman as well. This girl was apparently diagnosed with BPD under the age of 18 which is weird, but worth mentioning. Those years of my life were hell. EDIT: I ended up back on this video and found some likes on my comment. I thank you all, but I didn’t exactly post this to get likes, but rather to share my perspective. The slenderman stabbing case validated my experiences after years of being given the implication that my ASD was the reason for my suffering and that I wasn’t sympathetic enough towards this girl. I have coped with what has happened, and this case means a lot to me for that reason. I feel like this case helped me cope with my own similar trauma and through talk therapy I realized none of the pain I endured was my fault like I believed.
That’s really terrifying to think about where that girl is now. I’m so sorry that your diagnosis of ASD was used to improperly invalidate what you were experiencing. My nephew has SPD, and I can say that those on the spectrum are incredibly sensitive to others emotional states and can see things in others that are missed by most. The problem arises when trying to communicate what they are experiencing to others. I don’t know if this plays a role but living with borderline personality disorder I’ve experienced the same when my diagnosis was used as a means of dismissal to things I have experienced. It’s such a relief when I hear others having gone through similar situations. I am an emotional sponge so when someone is acutely under distress around me I physically and emotionally experience whatever they are going through right along with them.
Rae Rae Thank you for the reply, and yes it is very hard. The hardest part though is the lack of validation out there about the kind of abuse I went through because it wasn’t the stereotypical type of toxic relationship between two adults or romantic partners. I often wonder if I can even say I was abused at all, because my whole childhood I had the bullying I went through routinely invalidated or brushed off as me “misunderstanding” or “reacting inappropriately”. I think there is a huge problem in schools with how bullying is dealt with, and how it is often downplayed. I gave up asking adults for help when I was bullied because nobody took me seriously. Once I was even blamed and labeled as the bully for blocking an incoming kick, and ended up losing my recess time for the rest of the school year which was used to watch anti bullying videos in a dark office. It is a messed up system and I bet the school could’ve noticed how Morgan and Anissa had a clear hierarchy in their relationship had anyone paid a shred of attention. Even the interrogation tapes show how Morgan was clearly the ringleader who made Anissa tell her when to stab their friend so she could differ responsibility to her. “I won’t do it unless you tell me to.” is the equivalent of an abuser hitting someone and saying “I can’t believe you’re making me do this.” I think that a prominent dominant and submissive relationship dynamic is a potential sign of covert bullying, and while it may not always be the case, if one kid is afraid to speak when in the presence of another something is clearly not right. Or if a child takes an almost adult role and parents other children when that is abnormal for the age group. My bully used to apologize to counselors for me “bringing this up again” and trying to get help, as if she was on the same level as them in terms of power. This type of cruelty can be committed by children, and adults need to open their eyes so girls like Anissa and Payton can be protected. We need to teach kids about how abuse works, and red flag statements that indicate manipulation in most contexts. How about we actually teach kids how to combat and avoid bullies rather than painting this general simplistic picture of bullying that we see today.
Makeshift Masquerade You are not alone. I agree with you, our system is fucked up because as human beings we continue cycles of abuse when we don’t take accountability for how we have played a part in continuing the cycle. That really hit home for me when you said you don’t even know if what you experienced could be categorized as abuse. I didn’t discover that my sister and mom were gaslighting me all throughout my life until I hit 34. I would make excuses for them, that they know not what they do. My mom is codependent, and my sister is a textbook narcissistic. I was obviously different tv from everyone not only in my household; but the world it seemed ( pre-internet). They didn’t understand me, or I them. The difference was that I wanted to understand and they wanted to dismiss and either belittle or invalidate. So much abuse is done without anyone even acknowledging that it is abuse and wrong.
Woah I just. Ugh. Reading this hit me sideways. When I was 10 there was a girl who was, as for you, the only person who was supposedly my friend. Over the next year after she arrived in my life (she had just moved to the area and school), once I started staying over at her house regularly (again, only friend), she started saying odd things. It started with that she could hear voices of people talking to her. Then she said it was a boy she knew from back home and that he used to hurt her and she had a scar on her hand that she said he'd caused. Then she started saying and acting like she was "possessed" by final fantasy characters. She used this to attack me and try to hurt me. At first I thought it was someone who needed help and that she was trying to hurt me so she could process the anger etc. As a kid I got bullied really badly so any level of friendship and I was such an easy target as I felt all the bullying was my fault at that age and was just grateful for someone to be nice to me (which she was in school, just not out of it). Then it escalated after a few months, she tried to drown me when we went swimming. Then a while later, held a knife to my throat and would've cut it if I hadn't stamped on her foot and pushed her off me once her hand moved. Then she tried to drown me again but in the deep end, so I swam down and away from her once I got her hand off my shoulder. Then finally after about a year of this constant trying to attack me and various attempts to really hurt me. She then tried to strangle me, she wouldn't let go, I started to get dizzy as I couldn't breathe for how hard she was squeezing and pressing. So I swung out at her and punched her in the face. She "snapped out of her possession" and went to sleep. Then that was the last time I saw her as I realised she truly would've kept going until I was at least passed out if not worse. And I still have flashbacks to this day triggered by tv shows with strangling or drowning scenes and by anyone touching the front of my neck. So yeah. I'm probably going to delete this after you've seen it masquerade. But I just thought maybe reading something kind of similar would help you a bit, like your message helped me. Also. My flashbacks got a lot worse after she contacted me out of the blue several years ago to "apologise" for what she did.... Yeah that was not accepted. Just said I was glad her life was better but that I didn't forgive her Anyway, I hope you're doing okay and that reading it helps in some odd way. Let me know when you've seen it so I can delete it please. Thanks
R B93 I’ve seen it, thank you so much for sharing. It is really strange how this occurs, and the worst part is that the bullying is seen as a pretend game by most adults. I am so sorry that happened to you.
I remember my Aunt, with whom I lived as a child, forbidding me to be friends with a certain neighborhood boy. He was diagnosed as a psychopath when a young adult and has lived his life as a human wrecking ball, seriously harming everyone and everything he contacts. Parents, be diligent in knowing with whom your kids are hanging out. And, thank you so much Aunt Joey!
@@sourgummiez fortunately the victim survived. This could easily be a case of three girls who disappeared. Maybe skeletal remains found by joggers years later. People would speculate on what happened, no one would guess that two of them sacrificed the other to an internet meme then died in the woods looking for slender man's house.
No. If they died in the woods, investigators would know it wasn't murder! Good grief, that's basic forensics. If the cause of death is hypothermia, dehydration, or starvation (unlikely, since the first 2 will kill you LONG before you'd starve to death), it's obviously not murder! If someone STABBED both of them to death, then not only would that be poetic justice, but in that case then, yes, the 3 murders could be attributed to a single serial killer.
@@DonnaBrooks dead bodies in the woods are often scavenged by animals. I'm just morbidly imagining a scenario where either they are not found or partial skeletal remains are found after they have been scattered. There are many cases where pathologist cannot determine if someone died of natural causes or foul play.
@@provethioaltum3276 Being naive has nothing to do with proneness to being targeted by, and subsequently falling victim to, cults. It's a misguided misconception really; just as the misconception (or rather, to be frank, the ignorance) that cult members are people with a lower spectrum IQ (i.e. they are stupid) and therefore easily fooled (i.e. lacking knowledge, life experience and analytic and rational capabilities - i.e. aka "naive"). There are actually a number of really knowledgeable youtube-channels that deals with cults: cult structures, strategies, psychology etc.. I can recommend Chris Shelton for instance - he's a former 2:nd gen scientologist who primarily deals with scientology and it's construct, but also has a lot of material dealing with cults in general - including interwievs with cult experts and the like. I'd also recommend Steven Hassan: an ex-mooni turned cult expert and the developer of the BITE-model. Jon Atack is a frequent guest on Chris Shelton's chanel (and he also has his own youtube chanel) - Atack's prime "target" is scientology, but he's really more of a rennessance man genius: highly intelligent, well read and deeply knowledgeable about a wide range of areas of studies from L. Ron Hubbards morning rutine to ... well, frankly, more or less any subject you can think off - including cult psychology. That said, I'd say you're halfway correct when it comes to anxiety and people who don't get out much. I say "halfway" because anxiety as a specific wouldn't be as commonly seen as people who're going through a difficult period in their life, who experience temporary instability, who are not necessarily used to dealing with mental (or otherwise) hardship. Not getting out much is also a halfway:er in that social isolation and loneliness - or even a feeling of lineliness - are something of a "come-n-get-me"-sign for cult recruiters. While just sitting at home, not parttaking in the outside world, isn't. LAstly: I appologize for my crude english skills (my brains willingness to translate for my language to english is a fluctuating occurance ). Hopefully I managed to make some sense at least (while simultaneusly leaving myself with an irritating notion that I might just have managed to write three quarters of a book and _still_ compleately missed my own target). Oh, well. Anyway. Cheers!
It is a good idea to keep horror themed shows away from kids unless you take the time to explain that it's all pretend. My parents ruined horror for me. "Those are people with special makeup. Some of the monsters were made using computers, some are puppets or animatronics." Once I realized Freddy Kruger was a man wearing arts and crafts with makeup on I became more fascinated with grownups making money doing "arts and crafts" (practical effects and prosthetics) than what was being shown. The horror that couldn't be saved or explained was The Shining, Cujo, Last House on the Left, Shutter Island- losing your sanity and/or hurting those who love you because your own mind has failed you. That's true horror.
@@EDDIELANE why would you let your young children watch something that scares them like that. You can get ptsd and secondary ptsd from watching horrific images.
@@pinksalt1057 I don't think she's allowing her kids to stream the Saw franchise. Seems like she explains what the images are and how they're made. The real damage comes from neglect and lack of communication on the parent's end. If you don't monitor and interact with your child then yes PTSD can occur because the child had no safe place to express their fears and subsequently have them put to rest. No, my kid isn't following in my footsteps of watching horror at 6 (saw Child's Play prior to Nightmare on Elm St.) because that's my choice. She's seen Courage the Cowardly Dog as a stepping stone to scary stuff. If she has an interest I'll nurture it gradually. If not, then more late night horror showings alone for me.
@@pinksalt1057 sometimes they see stuff by accident man, like previews or something. You have to be ready to help them understand. Kids are scared of mascots, lol
@@EDDIELANE I get it, I just don't know if a tv is a necessary part of the house nowadays, with all that they can expose anyone too without any notice, for example the preview of a scary movie.
Thank you Dr. Grande! I found it very interesting what you were saying about limiting but not restricting children's viewing of certain content. There has to be balance and regular monitoring so that a discussion can take place if there are any concerns. Love all your videos, cannot stop watching them!
Excellent presentation and I agree with your opinions all the way. And on the heels of this topic, I'd like to expand this picture and ask if you'd give a presentation on "mass hysteria" ...{please}?
The thing that makes me unsympathetic to these girls is they didn't seem scared of the monster, but instead seemed to "like" him and were seeking him out. That is the most disturbing part to me. That poor little girl who was attacked, I can't even imagine the psychic scarring that would leave.
@@Tadesan Cheesy frothy smegma all up in your foreskin folds can also contribute to horrific trauma for the female partners of the uncircumcised. You can keep your smeggerz.
Hey, could you talk about Shutter island? I just watched it and o boy, the denial of reality would be very interesting to hear be analyzed by a professional like you!
Excellent idea! I'd love to see that sort of topic analysed by you too, Dr Grande. Thank you for suggesting, Shutter Island is a great movie, haven't watched it in years, good call!
Your insight on this case is very interesting. I guess because I cope with Bipolar 2 w/psychotic features, I believe that 40 years in a mental hospital isn't long enough. Geyser should NEVER be released based on her diagnosis of early onset schizophrenia and oppositional defiant disorder & her crime. If Geyser gets out, who is going to make sure she STAYS on her medication to protect society? I'm not at all comfortable with people like Geyser running around w/o some sort of very close supervision. But hey, what do I know? I'm not a doctor, just someone with a lifetime of personal experience with a severe mental illness.
I’m so glad Dr Grande’s videos came up in my recommended on YT! Now his channel is part of my regular viewing; such good educational information, and the humor always makes me laugh.
This was really interesting, and there were several factors you explained that were eerie similar to the Parker-Hulmes case (isolation, feeling of being special, their own fantasy world...).
Good on you for taking your medication regularly. I am an asthmatic so I know what it's like to manage a chronic illness. I use my diary to keep track of my medications and I have stayed out of hospital for decades (apart from operations). We are both helping the health system to cope by managing our conditions sensibly. 😊🌷🌼🌸☘🌿
Good for you for taking your medicine. Please stay on your medication. Take care of yourself. And we know that most Schizophrenics are not dangerous.. Peace to you.
Hi Dr.Grande. I work as a early childhood care provider and would love to see a video about the mass trauma that young children may develop due to the pandemic. Love your videos!
I think that kids would take their cues from the adults around them. If they see adults forming a strong protective wall around them by using vaccines, masks and sometimes lockdowns, they will feel that the adults are actively looking after them, protecting them from harm. Life always has dangers. The kids need to learn that dangers can be managed. You look both ways before you cross the road. You ride your bike carefully when near a road and drive carefully as an adult. You give up smoking and drink alcohol in moderation (or better still, not at all). You choose which movies to watch so you can sleep at night. If there's something scary happening in your life, you know that your parents will always listen in a kindly, helpful way.
@@MoneyStrategiesSOULutions mass trauma? I have 7 grandchildren. 3 who are school aged and were required to mask. Trauma comes from hysterical parents who raised hell from parents screaming about masking. My grandchildren NEVER complained. Children take their cues from adults.
This is similar to how I perceive many religious killings, an order from or an attempt to pleas a higher being. (Of course this is only how I view the situation and I tend to think very negatively about religion)
Interesting topic! Thank you Dr Grande. I remember a story of reunited twins that had this or similar shared psychosis.. peculiar & interesting! It appears these young girls may have fanned their own desire for control until it control them.. it seems slightly different to the reunited twins. I've no previous knowledge of this story.. so appreciate I may be well off the mark HAHA.. deeply fascinating on all counts! As undoubtedly the possibility of them trying to mimic 'madness' was ruled out. This only increases my fascination with the goings on of the human mind. Thanks again Doc!
This was my ex and his mother. He took on her persona right down to her speech, at times if I closed my eyes and listen to him speak, I couldn’t distinguish who was speaking. He was abused horribly from around the age of 2 and especially during his potty training years by his mother, his father was nonexistent. Around the age of 6, his mother taught him how to boil hot water and throw on the kittens that would come around their house, seeking food. This was a story that he would relay to guest at barbecues, so nonchalantly. It’s no wonder why we were never invited back. He later on became her emotional sonhusband and any female in his life, to include his own children became enemy # number one in the mother’s eyes. I’ve never experienced anything like this in my life. It was very mind- boggling and creepy seeing his mother act like a woman competing for a man. She would call & text him up 30 times a day, every day. What sent me to the psychologist’s chair, was when I discovered several selfies in his phone, of his mother: one in a two piece bikini, legs spread, one of her wrapped in a towel after a shower, another of her laying on a bed, with shirt lifted up, exposing her breast ..smirking in the camera, there’s more. These came weekly. He was 34, she.. 63. I came across the pictures saved in his phone and couldn’t believe my own eyes. I thought something was wrong with me (hence the psychologist). I screenshot them and sent them to my phone, then I confronted him and asked: “This is your mom, right? The children’s grandmother?” To this he answered yes, then I asked: “Do these pictures not make you uncomfortable in anyway?” His response: “No. Why should they? That’s my mother, that’s just the way she is.” Said like this was just a normal thing. So I then asked this way: “Then what would stop you, from sending your children pictures like these?” His response was explosive and threatening....”WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, THAT MY MOTHER MOLESTED ME!! Bitch I’ll kill you!” It’s then I started planning my silent escape with the children, not before a long, horrendous custody battle, which he and his mother orchestrated. 3 years later we are here, the children and I, safe above ground. I knew if given the word from his mother, which I knew was coming, he would’ve killed us all. He was later diagnosed as NPD co-morbid with schizophrenia. And, the mother psychopath, by proxy.
Hi Dr. Grande, these videos are great, you have great spins on the different topics and I think the case studies are very illuminating :) Thanks for sharing all this information. I was wondering, do psychopaths assert power out of fear or insecurity or is the need for dominance not always driven by a feeling of lack of power? Me and a friend discussed this and couldn't seem to agree, so I figured you as a professional might know. Thanks again for the videos!
Dr. Grande professionally presents this topic, but I'm not at the point where I can listen very long to analyses of draconian criminality. Consequently, I only listened to timecode 3:44. There are just far too many horrors in the world in which we live. I'm glad the Dr. tries to make sense of it, however, as he is trained to do so, but as a layperson, there's a limit to the amount of diabolical and dystopic happenings I can process. Kudos to Dr. Grande for delving into this subject. His dedication to understanding and explaining human behavior no matter how disturbing is something I much admire, and it may ultimately help society prevent the kinds of Mephistophelean activities he discusses going forward.
I know my daughter’s inside and out. I stayed home with them, I was a classroom mom, the whole thing. My son was a little bit harder to read, he got away with things I had no idea about until later. I hold parents responsible no matter what the situation.
the sleepover was enough time to be unsupervised , nobody is mentioning what the parents were doing during the time of those children were spending outdoors.
I feel like a lot of kids that age end up watching scary videos/movies. I watched a lot as a pre-teen. She was obviously very susceptible to things like that and it triggered something in her. Like you said, this is a very unusual and strange case.
I was deeply into AMW and murder & mayhem cases in general when I was that age(REAL stories, though ghost stories were spooky-fun, too). I witnessed death with a straight face even before then. Here I am, a well-adjusted (eheh) adult, never stabbed anybody in my life. In fact, I'd say I'm rather anti-stabbing, lol. This case definitely goes deeper than simple exposure to scary stories & images. Hopefully their rehabilitation yields results, I'd like to hear more speculation about the mental health and personality factors that may contribute to a situation like this!
I watched the 2 hours video of the psychiatrist that did the girl’s forense evaluation .The psychiatrist said that Morgan often heard voices, she had an imaginary friend called Maggie that she used to talk often, she thought Maggie was real. He said that Morgan told her mother several times about hearing voices and her mother said she would punish her if she kept talking about this, she used the word “punish “. I had no doubt that this crime Could be preventable. Morgan’s father is schizophrenic and once she told her mom that she was hearing voices why on earth her mother didn’t take her to a psychiatrist?. He said Morgan was feeling sad when the voices went away, with medication, and he said it’s understandable because her imaginary friends “died”, I believe this explain well why this crime was preventable .
This was a very compassionate commentary on this sad and shocking case. I'd been concerned about them being charged with murder. For girls of that age to commit a violent assault/attempted murder based on belief in an internet meme is to me, by default, hard proof of some kind of severe mental issue. Mentally healthy people simply don't try to kill others to placate a cartoon/creepypasta character. There are times when social punishment for intentional, knowing acts of antisocial behavior may be necessary and productive, but in this case, "punishment' is not going to change the underlying mental illness...only add more trauma and possibly other mental problems. These girls need help...as does their intended victim...and hopefully they will get it. The social cry to see a child or anyone "punished" (negative) for being sick rather than being contained for safety and healing (positive) says as frightening a thing about us as human beings, and our lack of understanding about mental illness, as does the fact that these two girls did what they did.
Wow, Dr. Grande, this is the most interesting case imo! Thanks for sharing! I believe at the age of 12 years, children are very influential. I recall my childhood. I was going through puberty and that was my most difficult year. I had an obsession about being a "good" child and prayed most of the time. I even believed "God" could hear my thoughts. If I had a bad thought, I would pray over and over. I grew up in a family of 7 children where I was 2nd eldest. I always wanted to make everything good and take care of others. I even presented my wish to my father to become a Nun. Amazing time for me. This analysis bought me back to that time. Very intense case. Great work Dr. Grande!!
There are lots of really good quality children's books at your local library. I think it's best to steer clear of fairy stories. Jackie French writes marvellous books for kids.
There is also a case here in Utah involving 2 teen boys which were good friends of my nieces before this happened. They told a 14 year old girl they wanted to meet with her to but a ring from her in back if a building. When she got there they asked her to help them search for something they lost and when her back was turned to them they shot her in the back of the head. She survived but the bullet cannot be removed from her. These were good religious seeming kids who went to church each Sunday and pretended to have extremely high moral standards. They'd just been to my nieces birthday party a few weeks before this happened. Such a shock..
Imagine my horror when o discovered my 12 year old daughter had watched The Human Centipede on Netflix 😐 I'm a millennial so I thought I'd been pretty careful. I changed my password and put a parental lock on my Netflix after that 🙃
Funny how age changes ya. I remember watching the human centipede with my uncle when I was either in my late teens or early 20s and we were laughing at how downright ridiculous it was. Tbf we had been drinking and smoking weed but I couldn't believe how bad that movie was after all the hype it had gotten. That being said, if I'd watched it when I was 12 I probably would have been terrified. I remember watching Blade with my older brother when I was like 8 and it scared tf out of me 😂 Being a grown ass man now I'd consider it to be an 'action' movie rather than a 'horror' movie. As I got older the things that scare me in cinema are things that could actually happen. Realism terrifies me more than fantasy. For instance, I watched Pulp Fiction for the first time when I was like 12 and the 'bring out the gimp' scene had my palms sweating. I'll never forget the first time I watched that. I had no idea what was coming when Butch pushed open that door... and it was worse than what I even imagined. Another terrifying scene for me was in Reservoir Dogs when Michael Madsens character has the cop tied up in the warehouse. Where he cuts off the cops ear then drenches him in petrol, all the while he's giddily dancing to 'stuck in the middle with you'. That shit made me so uncomfortable haha.
I'm a part of the creppypasta fandom since I was 10 years old (I'm 18 now and I'm still in the fandom), and this case was so shocking to me, most of the fandom was surprised and I just hope that outsiders will understand that not everyone on the community believed in the actual existence of the creppypasta characters, must of us just love horror, but surely the fact that the community is full of childrens makes it kind of dangerous, because of situations like this one.
Yeah, I feel you. I was 16 when this happened. I really loved creepypasta at the time and so did many of my friends, and near Halloween every year my friends and I volunteered at the local haunted house to explore the genere of horror. But by no means did we think it was real. Also, while I'm still fascinated with horror, my haunted house days are done. In my second year of volunteering (also 16), I was a screamer (dressed as Jeff the Killer) and in one night this all happened: a 14 yo boy slammed my body with a door multiple times (the door had rusted nails sticking out of it that got me), a creepy pervert tried to feel me up, my best friend in another room was molested by the same guy, one of my other friends was cornerd and threatened to be raped, and one of the other actresses was stabbed with a plastic knife in the neck by the same 14 yo boy (she was hurt pretty badly but thankfully ended up okay). It was a horrifying night; a nightmare come to life. I still am a bit scared from that since I ended up having a panic attack, but people passed me by since they thought I was acting. The haunted house was shut down and the police "investigated" but decided not to do anything eventhough multiple people were physically attacked, injured, or nearly raped. The next day at school I also remember hearing people complaining that the haunted house shut down early for "no good reason" and I shut them up fast. I did go the next year but I was a shadow, so I didn't do much scaring and mostly went around to the actors to see if they were doing okay, if they needed food or water or a break. But yeah, after that I don't think I'll go to another haunted house, eventhough I still love horror. That was just too much.
I was intrigued by your recent analysis of the New Zealand girls who murdered one of the girl's mothers that I downloaded a book by Peter Graham which was quite detailed, with varied diagnoses of the girls, Pauline and Juliet in the 1950's. Those girls were intelligent, moody and creative but isolated themselves from others. I knew the story but was mostly interested in how they ended up. They are now in their 80's, desire no contact with each other. Juliet is a successful writer and Pauline loves disabled children and horses and teaches riding. So I was very interested in this video about the Slenderman girls. I wonder if adolescent hormones triggered these delusions.
I wondered about that, too. Before they become interested in boys, some teenage girls have crushes on teachers, movie stars or each other. In both cases, this one and the NZ one, perhaps the crushes were so extreme as to result in murder in the NZ case and as to almost result in murder in the case of these two girls.
Just Ellie, I live about 20 mins from where it happened . It was big news for a small town in Indiana. There is a book based on it as well! I would love to hear his analyze on it, great suggestion!
I'm a bit late to this party (only just discovered your channel, which I'm very much enjoying), but this case is very interesting to me. The idea that the girls had an aim of making people 'realise Slenderman is real' suggests they were perfectly aware of his internet creation. I suspect no amount of parental monitoring/guidance would have obviated their obsession, as it had already survived the 'reality test'. Although such young girls either committing or attempting murder is rare, there are a whole slew of less serious cases involving pubescent/early teen girls sharing delusions. It suggests a hormonal component to their disordered thinking, their psychology and emotions being in temporary disarray whilst their hormones are all over the place, which later become more balanced.
yes I think the hormonal surge at puberty can make girls mental health go wild for a bit. I had intense anxiety, paronia and obbsessive traits around that time.
Amazing horror story. How NICE, The poor victim survived! Ties in well with your previous fascinating: "folie a deux," presentation. Very unusual circumstances. Evidently, psychopathy knows no age boundaries. "Creative weirdo,"= homicidal maniac. Great food for thought during this tedious quarantine period. Bravo from Michigan!
I don’t think this case was publicized very well because this is one of the most fascinating videos you’ve ever done and I see only 355 comments. I’m pretty surprised by that. The only part of this that seems preventable maybe is the bullying which is a big problem that needs a surgically precise strategy on a national level. Maybe other educators were able to prepare something for school children that’s effective anti bullying material, but in my view the best strategy would be to begin with the aftermath on families and then turn the focus to antecedent events when bullying is involved . So an educational video targeting school children regarding unforeseen effects of bullying that continues because children are unaware of late effects. I’d like to see you do a video like that. I say this because you have a talent for presenting in an exquisitely powerful way how devastating the outcome is for victims and so I consider you to be in a unique position to come up with something like this. As for this particular video I just viewed, I’m not sure how you could rename it so more people will see it, but it’s fascinating. It’s too bad you need a more sensational title since the goal appears to be keeping these cases less sensational. I know that’s what distinguishes your work and I believe that’s one specific reason people follow you. But the schoolgirl killers notion is truly unique and I’m amazed I missed this case in the news. I really want to thank you for all your careful work presenting these topics to the general public. Your channel content is just superb!
I'd love to see a video about your take on the mental health and personality of Klaus Kinski. Might be a bit much to ask but I'd be very interested in what you think about him.
I am always saddened by this case. All of the parents are experiencing pain and self-doubt on a level I hope none of us ever go through. That girl was a survivor, and the man on the bike was a hero. I'm glad something good came out of this mess. I hope the young attackers get the help they need.
You should listen to an Afghan 12 year old talk about the war in his country. They actually know what's up and talk about how they can make it a better place to live.
The original artist was saddened too. But if it hadn't been 'ol Slim, it would have been some Creepy Pasta character, or perhaps an actual, living or dead, lunatic. There was a problem with these kids long before they stumbled across Slenderman's stories. Probably would have grown into religious fanatics. I hope their therapy works.
I know the internet doesn't CAUSE things like this but this is one of the reasons I do not allow my kids to view violent imagery or be unsupervised on the internet. :/
I think it is a similar phenomenon to violence in video games. The vast majority of teenagers won't be more violent or delusional due to games or internet content, but the small percentage who are vulnerable due to initially unrelated mental health issues can be affected negatively. On the other hand, those teens would possibly end up similar places, internet or not, if there mental health issues weren't properly treated. Also, even kids who aren't delusional or violent can simply be scared by this type of content, which is also a very valid concern for a parent.
Oh, I made a comment regarding a similar case. The Erickson Twins were diagnosed with Folie à deux, I had asked if you could explain more about this diagnosis. So, job done. Please disregard my previous comments on this subject. Thank you.
Thank you so much for a well-informed take on this case and on so many others. I find it to be a little lazy on the part of commentators on documentaries or tv shows to reduce people to simply “evil” without exploring the nuance of their experiences, personality and all that led up to the crime. 😊 I also have a question for you Dr.Grande! Is there a correlation between handwriting and intelligence or handwriting and personality or both? I would love to see this explored on your channel! Thank you!🙏❤️
Could this have something to do with the "dancing plague" of the 14th Century? Or is that something totally different? That phenomenon has interested me for years.
What if Slenderman actually exists? It’s pretty narrow minded to write this off as a psychological disorder just because we’re dealing with something we don’t fully understand.
I cannot express how thankful I am that the girls didn't insist on staying w/ the stabbing victim and therefore leading her deeper into the forest. I'm really surprised they left her for dead, but somehow that saved her life.
Totally different type of case, but just the words "shared" and "disorder" made me think of that case of two Swedish sisters in the UK and their crazy motorway behavior that was caught on camera, because the police were filming with...I think it was the documentary series 'Motorway Cops' . Please correct me if I'm wrong. You can find shorter and longer videos of the accident and documentaries about them on YT. 'Madness In The Fast Lane - Swedish Sisters (or twins), from 2008 Motorway Cops. It's very easy to find the episode on YT. You can also search Ursula and Sabrina Eriksson
12 year old girl: I'm going to murder my best friend and then spend the rest of my life with Slender Man in his mansion in the forrest. Someone else: Wierd flex but ok.
Seriously, I found the whole thing way too bizarre for 12 years old. I was 12 in the late 90's and I was definitely not playing hide and seek anymore. The whole thing sounds way too childish and this case is after my generation, where kids are supposed to be less innocent and less childish (aren't they?). Slenderman is a fiction character and if she really believe she was gonna live in a mansion in the woods with him.... Seriously, how hasn't anyone ever intervened? I liked some dark stuff when I was 12 too but nothing like "oooh I'm gonna live forever in the woods with an evil lunatic (that doesn't exist)." She must have shown an inclination to crime and fascination for that kind of stuff before and no one took it seriously. Shocking.
@@argentinawinthrop Yeah I found that aspect weird as well. Just the juxtaposition of playing hide and seek (very juvenile) and committing murder. When girls are younger I feel like they all go through a phase where they become fascinated with darker subject matter, horror, the paranormal and even witchy things - Especially in the 90's! I can remember telling spooky stories and having seances with my friends lol If i recall correctly, all of that preoccupation seemed to wear off once we hit double digits and puberty. It's very interesting to imagine if it hadnt and extrapolate though. Could definitely send some kids down a dark path.
Comment 20: 730 views 248k SUBSCRIBERS Dr. Gran❤️e I almost feel I’m treated to the “ early-bird special” as I enjoy this insight tremendously. As per a comment yesterday to change your opening to your videos, I would say to leave them as they are - this does not draw attention to your style, I’d rather conform to traditional wisdom rather than novelty. Thanks 😅😀😄😎
Fascinating as always, but I think this case is a shaky example of that diagnosis, simply because of the girl’s ages. I think this could have occurred among two mentally healthy girls in similar circumstances. One thing that shocks me in this age of easy access to information is how naive and rigid children and young people are in their beliefs. The internet makes rational, evidence-based and reliable information as readily available as it makes extremely fantastical and dangerous information available and my own clinical experience is that our youth do not discriminate. It feels as though this ‘illuminated’ age of information is simultaneously a dark age of medievalist superstition and ignorance.
Hey Dr. Grande! Unrelated to this video. I'd love if you did a video about critique of the DSM. Specifically concerns raised in Bessel van der Kolk's "The Body Keeps the Score" about how the epidemic of childhood trauma affects mental health outcomes. Many of those with trauma that could be conceptualized as C-PTSD or the rejected diagnosis "Developmental Trauma Disorder" get diagnosed with a host of different disorders in adolescence and adulthood such as bipolar, conduct disorder, intermittent explosive disorder, antisocial personality disorder among so many others, when trauma has been clinically shown in many reliable studies to be the root cause of the symptoms we see in individuals, and often not the root of what is actually treated. What are the functions of diagnosis, how reliable/valid are they, and do we overrely on them? I'd be interested in your perspective of van der Kolk's criticisms of the DSM overall. Hopefully this general question was phrased well!
Those girls owe their friend an apology. Those sociopaths weren’t even sorry for what they did. I’ve seen the footage of the police questioning and they were like “sorry not sorry “
Dr Grande you stated that if parents are too strict that can lead to certain other problems. Can you perhaps do a video about that. What could happen ect.
Deciding that you want to be a disciple of a monster is evil, whether the monster is real or delusional. Whether you're committing murder to please Slender Man or Charles Manson, you're still deciding to do something that you know is evil. And that's where my sympathy for those girls goes 100% out the window. I don't think either of them should ever take another free breath because they have already demonstrated beyond doubt that they lack empathy and a conscience. If they thought that their friend was a disciple of Slender Man and attacked her to keep her from kidnapping and killing another child, that would be a different story.
I had a meltdown today and seeing this video made me feel so happy. I’ve wanted to hear your thoughts on this case for so long since I experienced something quite similar in my childhood, which I may share in another comment. Either way, thanks Dr.Grande!
Thank you Dr. Grande for your whit, intelligence and thoughtfulness! My man friend has delusions of grandeur and a Messiah complex so I am always interested in delusions in others... somehow it helps to hear that he is not alone in his condition tragic as it is. God bless these poor children and people struggling with these health issues!
I remember that phase of my life where I was somewhere between childhood and being a young adult. I was around 13-14 years old and became obsessed and engrossed in fantasy worlds and fandoms in order to escape. I didn't have the best reality and created a different one and I developed an obsessive creativity for doing so that I didn't possess prior to puberty. When I got to about 16 or 17 something changed biochemically and I snapped out of it. It seems to be common for adolescent girls especially to get extremely caught up in fandoms and fantasy and it seems that this time for whatever reason things took a very dark turn.
Suggested topic : Ezra Mccandless (fake name) . Born to young teen parents. Biological father left. She grew up in a dysfunctional house. Adopted a male persona as a defence mechanism against abuse. Started to tell lies a lot. Met Jason in nearby college town at a coffe shop... slightly older.... got unexpectedly pregnant and decided to terminate the pregnancy since her mother believed having children so young was unwise. Terminated the pregnancy on her birthday. The emotion of the terminated pregnancy broke up her relationship with Jason. She started becoming involved with two men..... Alex, kind and philosophical....and John, an army member and Jasons best friend. Both relationships were based in guilt and fuelled by the unresolved misery of the terminated pregnancy on her birthday. . Ezra told Jason John had taken advantage of her when drunk. Then said Alex did too. Essentially lies. . Jason wanted to kill John. Jason hated Alex. Ezra and Jason broke up but tried to work things out. Jason encouraged Ezra to file a Police report against John charged with rape. The Police talked with Alex who said there was no rape, it was guilt...... Police read sexy messages back and forth to John after the "rape" Jason found out the truth. Jason got angry. Jason and Ezra broke up. A month passes and Ezra show up in town dishevelled instead of excessively dressed with makeup. Ezra has copied Alex writing journals except hers are disturbed and angry. She has drawn hersels as a "tricky fox".. ...her self described "spirit animal" attacking her problems with a knife. . Jason sees her at the coffee shop but they barely speak. Ezra drives off and unexpectedly meets with Alex. Jason sensed there was something wrong and randomly decides to go to Alexs apartment. Ezras car is outside running. Jason waits nervously. Someone sees Jason nervously walking around and calls Police. Jason bursts through the door on Ezra and Alex. Police arrive. Ezra and Alex leave to "go somewhere public to talk" . Alex is stabbed 16 times. The first blow penetrating into his brain from the back side may have paralysed him. His neck was cut three times. His genitals were stabbed. . She claimed self defence. She looks like different people in many photos.
Can you do a video on why some people may self-sabotage potential relationships or deny suitors after a failed relationship with someone with NPD? For years even? Thank you for all your talks
I'd love to hear that! I know someone who can jump straight into another relationship after a failed one, even if it ends horribly. It's like they hit a reset button, and carry no baggage from one attempt at romance into the next. Being single gives them anxiety. I also know someone who experienced a total of three romantic relationships, each of which lasted 3-5 years, and now refuses to ever date again. They did have terrible luck - the first one ending in suicide, the second being a narcissist, and the last having an undiagnosed CC disorder. Those last two did progress to engagement before being broken off, one after the narcissistic abuse became escapable, and the other after a cheating incident & the SO becoming emotionally distant(the cheating evidently wasn't enough by itself). Not only do they now lack any desire to date, marry, or have kids(which they used to look forward to), but have distanced themselves from friends and family, too, and have become rather agoraphobic. Since one partner denied them the ability to carry a phone unless it was to track them, they now hate phones and get anxious or angry at the thought of even owning one. And that was almost seven years ago. I can agree with part of their decision, but can see that their ability to function socially has degraded immensely. Yet they still communicate with both their surviving exes! Why??
@@wolfafterdark perhaps it's Learned Helplessness. When you live in a very codependent relationship, abusive even, you learn to stop having your own needs and always wait for the response of your partner. They need to stop communicating with their ex. It's the only way. And it will feel awful for a long while and maybe even feel suicidal being apart, but after a while you start to get independence back. Working, talking to your own friends who dont know the ex, having a phone for communication or a car for transport, these are helpful things that will help her feel independent at least externally again. It takes a long time for the fog to lift, and for emotions to feel like your own again. They can never get their ex's voices out of her head while they are still communicating at all with them. They will continue to torture themselves, repeating the awful, untrue things they were told so long as those people are in their life. I watched Sam Vaknin and learned a lot from him. Some Richard Grannon too though he gets most his ideas from Dr. Vaknin I think he is a good translator though. You can try watching them. Your friend may like either of those 2
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
Omg stabbed 19:times and still manage to get out of the woods... she is a champ! Glad she survived
I hope she has been able to recover and live a mostly normal life after that.
I had thought that she died in the attack, never been happier to misremember something.
Incredible show of unimaginable strength. I'm so happy she survived ♡
Seven V The perpetrators were very young children. The human brain isn’t fully developed until the mid-20s. These girls created their own fantasy world, as children will do.
@Seven V dude they were literally mentally ill. It has nothing to do with intelligence.
Could you do a video on June and Jennifer Gibbons, the identical twin girls who would refuse to speak to anyone but each other and even developed a private language. I'm an identical twin myself so that case fascinates me
Seconded! The Silent Twins are a fascinating case, especially regarding the interplay of genetics, family life and societal factors like racism, sexism and bullying in the formation of mental illness and of course the relationship of mental illness and delinquency and violence. Also art and creativity, given the Twins literary ambitions...
This sounds indeed fascinating. I'm interested, too.
@Leandro Aude I was interested then I read somewhere that due to changes in the DSM, the twins would've been dx as a psychotic disorder..
I would love to hear why and how changes in the DSM are applied retroactively.. and what would the treatment change etc?
What do you mean "developed"
I love that you don't sensationalize this type of case and discuss it with compassion toward all involved. 30 years ago I began working in forensic psychology thinking that I would be dealing with monsters. I was wrong and most were much more like me than I had previously thought. I began to see that under certain circumstances, I could be the murderer. I am grateful that I do not have certain mental infirmities and grew up in a better environment than most of my patients. I came to care very much for some people that I could not recommend to be released from the hospital. If I'm not mistaken you seem to have the temperament, care, and careful analysis of a good forensic psychologist.
Huh excuse me monsters are real, who do you think goes around killing their best friends or anyone? No one you can think slender man is real, I’m not saying that people are allowed to have beliefs and if you want to think a slender man is real
Then I’ll support that I’m not saying people can’t think he’s real, but when you plan to kill someone including your best friend or more then one friend, that’s not ok then it’s time to get off the internet, right away, people believe lots of things but don’t attempt to kill anyone,
@@leighhoppins9273 I agree with you. The people I work with have severe mental illnesses and sometimes severe trauma from abuse. With proper medications they can be managed safely in controlled environments. If anyone is thinking of harming someone else because of the internet it is time to get some help.
@@leighhoppins9273 I don't think his point is that monsters *aren't* real, it's that the line between monsters and how we think of ourselves is thinner than we often think. Not that everyone is capable of murder, but imagining oneself born in certain environments (abuse, poor role models, low opportunity) and with certain genetic predispositions; one can see themselves in a much darker place.
That must be a hard job to do. I had considered forensic biology for a career when I was a teenager, but realized I’d have to deal with a lot of sad stuff, and decided I’d be terrible at it. I avoided becoming a doctor for the same reason. I don’t know how people like you face that kind of suffering every day, tbh
@@leighhoppins9273 the internet doesn’t cause schizophrenia.
I love how serious he was when describing the slenderman😂
Same lol too funny
There’s also the case of Shelia Eddy and Rachel Shoaf in their killing of “friend” Skylar Neese. This one is particularly interesting because of the lack of external influence on these girls’ criminal behavior. Quite plainly, they carried out the plan seemingly out of sheer malice. It would be nice to hear your take on that case. As always, thanks for sharing your insight.
Yes that was an interesting one..i myself suggested that one too,GREAT MINDS.......LOL
I thought that's what I was about to hear. Very similar scenario.
@@mouseyman Yes, I thought the same - it's the same scenario but with a dead victim. One of the girls is a true psycho the other one just goes along for some reason.
@@matheya Yeah, I would like to hear him compare and contrast the two cases.
I had two friends like those when I was young. Got away from them quick. They were real bullies!
A guy went off the bike trail where he wasn't supposed to be biking and luckily found her.
Sounds like Divine Intervention to me, thank goodness.
But he was on a road, why should he not have been there?
dustigenes the road was actually blocked off, but he decided to go that way anyways. Thankfully he did!
@@juliejackman2649 You're right. I thought the same thing. Divine Intervention.
@@dustigenes It was closed off but he went that way anyway.
Dr Grandes voice is better than ASMR with his relaxing demeanor and sheer intelligence
I’d like to hear what Dr Grande has to say about asmr, its practitioners and fans. Fucking psychosis, probably.
Sure is..its 1am, im just listening to his voice trying to fall asleep
Ew
Yes! I just came across his channel and I’ve been listening to his videos before bed all this past week. ☺️
I want a smooth voice off between him and Seth Andrews
I remember when Slenderman was the scariest thing to me. My parents were actually watching a news story about this case but I wasn’t allowed to watch it because it was passed my bed time but I heard the name slenderman and I was thinking that he must have been real if the news was talking about him.
And that's why we pulled our kid aside and talked to her about this, explaining he's not real.
I have a very naive kid, that believes just about everything she hears to be true. I've spent countless hours explaining these things to her. Slenderman, that creepy doll face that circulated a couple of years ago, movie magic etc. If we never explain these things to our kids, they might grow up susceptible to these types of influences. We need to instill some skeptiscism and rational analytic thought. I mean, worst case scenario they'd end up drinking the kool-aid...
Chara Mia Sometimes no matter how much you show your kid some things aren’t real and show them how they’re made, fantasies can be very appealing and tempting to believe, even to adults. Maybe ones adults believe in are not as clearly unrealistic as Slenderman, but with photoshop and modern advertising, people believe in many fantasies themselves without realizing it.
I mean, how many fully grown, adult human beings think that bigfoot is real, or ghosts are real? Or that a diet pill that can help you lose weight fast is real? Or that the nigerian prince asking for your money through email is real? I could go on and on..
We like to think kids are gullible and adults know better, but the scary truth is anyone could be tricked into drinking the metaphorical kool-aid. Shared psychosis isn’t two equally psychotic people coming together. The one who has delusions imposed on them could be any one of us. Heck, it was me when I was 10 years old.
I think you have the right idea though! You’re showing your child how to develop these interests in a way that isn’t focused on feeling fear, and that is very healthy!
Same, a little after this story was on the news, I happened to look up slender man on my tablet, and while my mom was using it she saw the search. No wonder she was so panicked!
@@blowitoutyourcunt7675 you gonna tell them santa isn't real either?
I remember watching interviews with the parents, it was so hard not to judge and dislike them, I knew there was nothing that could have predicted this, but there's a lot of emotion in this case. What stuck with me the most was how betrayed Payton must feel. I couldn't imagine how I could trust or anyone enough to make friends if that happened to me at that age.
Seriously. That poor young victim must have been extremely affected for the rest of her life. With that many stab wounds, her recovery would have been brutal and terrifying, and I wouldn't be surprised if she has lasting physical problems. And that's not even counting the effects on her ability to be in relationships ever again.
I thought the parents were clueless also. Of course they could not possibly have predicted that their children would plot to kill someone, but they seemed to be really unaware of the extent of their children's problems, or unconcerned about them, and really interested in somehow trying to drum up sympathy for themselves. Especially that one mother who whose husband was actually schizophrenic, and she KNEW IT. Maybe that's a clue that you need to not ignore your child's odd behavior? And how is it that marrying a guy with schizophrenia, and having children with him, seemed to her like reasonable life choice in the first place?
@@natekeyes2297 you know it’s possible that she didn’t know he was schizophrenic until after they had kids, right? Like it comes on pretty early, but it can hit as late as 30. Plenty of time to have kids right there.
Also, schizophrenics are almost never violent. That being said, j wouldn’t have kids with a schizophrenic, even if they had it under control. Genes are a bitch.
@Nate Keyes Her husband was diagnosed with Schizophrenia after Morgan was born. It was the main reason for the dissolution of their marriage. It’s tricky, from what I understand the doctors told her mother they couldn’t diagnose her daughter with schizophrenia as she was “too young”.
I do place blame on Morgan’s parents. They knew that her father was schizophrenic and that it was an inherited mental illness. Yet, It seems they took no steps to have her evaluated and seemed to be completely unaware of Morgan’s problems fitting in socially at school. Her parents appeared to be disengaged and had they been more vigilant, Morgan might have received proper treatment so that this incident could have been prevented.
I REALLY identify with the victim Payton, but also Anissa in this case, because I remember being almost exactly in her shoes with an abusive “friend” at almost exactly the same age. I am convinced it gave me induced psychosis at the time looking back on it. I had just moved schools due to bullying at age 10 and met a girl who was a bit off, but she was the only one who liked me, so as she revealed she had many mystical delusions I ended up believing them for a while.
She believed she was part wolf and a goddess and would use it as an excuse to touch me without consent or to be overly violent. She said that the real world was out to get her and I would be hurting her if I told any adults. She would tell me how much she wanted to murder her parents in graphic detail, and she would threaten suicide if I ever tried to leave the relationship. I was stuck with her for 3 whole years... I remembered having horrible nightmares and seeing things out of my window at night.
I tried to tell adults around me, but this girl used my diagnosis of ASD to invalidate my claims of her violent suicidal and erratic behavior as being misunderstood jokes. I legitimately think if that girl had the means to at that time, she would’ve sacrificed me to slenderman too. She even liked slenderman as well. This girl was apparently diagnosed with BPD under the age of 18 which is weird, but worth mentioning. Those years of my life were hell.
EDIT: I ended up back on this video and found some likes on my comment. I thank you all, but I didn’t exactly post this to get likes, but rather to share my perspective. The slenderman stabbing case validated my experiences after years of being given the implication that my ASD was the reason for my suffering and that I wasn’t sympathetic enough towards this girl. I have coped with what has happened, and this case means a lot to me for that reason. I feel like this case helped me cope with my own similar trauma and through talk therapy I realized none of the pain I endured was my fault like I believed.
That’s really terrifying to think about where that girl is now. I’m so sorry that your diagnosis of ASD was used to improperly invalidate what you were experiencing. My nephew has SPD, and I can say that those on the spectrum are incredibly sensitive to others emotional states and can see things in others that are missed by most. The problem arises when trying to communicate what they are experiencing to others. I don’t know if this plays a role but living with borderline personality disorder I’ve experienced the same when my diagnosis was used as a means of dismissal to things I have experienced. It’s such a relief when I hear others having gone through similar situations. I am an emotional sponge so when someone is acutely under distress around me I physically and emotionally experience whatever they are going through right along with them.
Rae Rae Thank you for the reply, and yes it is very hard. The hardest part though is the lack of validation out there about the kind of abuse I went through because it wasn’t the stereotypical type of toxic relationship between two adults or romantic partners. I often wonder if I can even say I was abused at all, because my whole childhood I had the bullying I went through routinely invalidated or brushed off as me “misunderstanding” or “reacting inappropriately”. I think there is a huge problem in schools with how bullying is dealt with, and how it is often downplayed. I gave up asking adults for help when I was bullied because nobody took me seriously. Once I was even blamed and labeled as the bully for blocking an incoming kick, and ended up losing my recess time for the rest of the school year which was used to watch anti bullying videos in a dark office.
It is a messed up system and I bet the school could’ve noticed how Morgan and Anissa had a clear hierarchy in their relationship had anyone paid a shred of attention. Even the interrogation tapes show how Morgan was clearly the ringleader who made Anissa tell her when to stab their friend so she could differ responsibility to her. “I won’t do it unless you tell me to.” is the equivalent of an abuser hitting someone and saying “I can’t believe you’re making me do this.”
I think that a prominent dominant and submissive relationship dynamic is a potential sign of covert bullying, and while it may not always be the case, if one kid is afraid to speak when in the presence of another something is clearly not right. Or if a child takes an almost adult role and parents other children when that is abnormal for the age group. My bully used to apologize to counselors for me “bringing this up again” and trying to get help, as if she was on the same level as them in terms of power.
This type of cruelty can be committed by children, and adults need to open their eyes so girls like Anissa and Payton can be protected. We need to teach kids about how abuse works, and red flag statements that indicate manipulation in most contexts. How about we actually teach kids how to combat and avoid bullies rather than painting this general simplistic picture of bullying that we see today.
Makeshift Masquerade You are not alone. I agree with you, our system is fucked up because as human beings we continue cycles of abuse when we don’t take accountability for how we have played a part in continuing the cycle. That really hit home for me when you said you don’t even know if what you experienced could be categorized as abuse. I didn’t discover that my sister and mom were gaslighting me all throughout my life until I hit 34. I would make excuses for them, that they know not what they do. My mom is codependent, and my sister is a textbook narcissistic. I was obviously different tv from everyone not only in my household; but the world it seemed ( pre-internet). They didn’t understand me, or I them. The difference was that I wanted to understand and they wanted to dismiss and either belittle or invalidate. So much abuse is done without anyone even acknowledging that it is abuse and wrong.
Woah
I just. Ugh. Reading this hit me sideways. When I was 10 there was a girl who was, as for you, the only person who was supposedly my friend.
Over the next year after she arrived in my life (she had just moved to the area and school), once I started staying over at her house regularly (again, only friend), she started saying odd things.
It started with that she could hear voices of people talking to her. Then she said it was a boy she knew from back home and that he used to hurt her and she had a scar on her hand that she said he'd caused. Then she started saying and acting like she was "possessed" by final fantasy characters. She used this to attack me and try to hurt me.
At first I thought it was someone who needed help and that she was trying to hurt me so she could process the anger etc.
As a kid I got bullied really badly so any level of friendship and I was such an easy target as I felt all the bullying was my fault at that age and was just grateful for someone to be nice to me (which she was in school, just not out of it).
Then it escalated after a few months, she tried to drown me when we went swimming. Then a while later, held a knife to my throat and would've cut it if I hadn't stamped on her foot and pushed her off me once her hand moved. Then she tried to drown me again but in the deep end, so I swam down and away from her once I got her hand off my shoulder.
Then finally after about a year of this constant trying to attack me and various attempts to really hurt me. She then tried to strangle me, she wouldn't let go, I started to get dizzy as I couldn't breathe for how hard she was squeezing and pressing. So I swung out at her and punched her in the face. She "snapped out of her possession" and went to sleep. Then that was the last time I saw her as I realised she truly would've kept going until I was at least passed out if not worse. And I still have flashbacks to this day triggered by tv shows with strangling or drowning scenes and by anyone touching the front of my neck.
So yeah.
I'm probably going to delete this after you've seen it masquerade.
But I just thought maybe reading something kind of similar would help you a bit, like your message helped me.
Also. My flashbacks got a lot worse after she contacted me out of the blue several years ago to "apologise" for what she did.... Yeah that was not accepted. Just said I was glad her life was better but that I didn't forgive her
Anyway, I hope you're doing okay and that reading it helps in some odd way. Let me know when you've seen it so I can delete it please. Thanks
R B93 I’ve seen it, thank you so much for sharing. It is really strange how this occurs, and the worst part is that the bullying is seen as a pretend game by most adults. I am so sorry that happened to you.
I remember my Aunt, with whom I lived as a child, forbidding me to be friends with a certain neighborhood boy. He was diagnosed as a psychopath when a young adult and has lived his life as a human wrecking ball, seriously harming everyone and everything he contacts. Parents, be diligent in knowing with whom your kids are hanging out. And, thank you so much Aunt Joey!
I am glad you were safe but I also feel sorry to think of the suffering and loneliness of that boy suffering from psychopathy.
I bet that boy had his genitals mutilated too.
Shame on you for not trying to help a child. Shame on you.
Go Aunt Joey!!!
Yay Aunty❣️
As a child I was *convinced* I would eventually find magical beans like Jack's.... I planted a lot regular bean stalks ... 🌱🍃🌱🥦
If they killed that girl then died in the woods everyone would think a serial killer got all 3.
Fingerprints on the knife and blood on the killers
@@sourgummiez fortunately the victim survived. This could easily be a case of three girls who disappeared. Maybe skeletal remains found by joggers years later. People would speculate on what happened, no one would guess that two of them sacrificed the other to an internet meme then died in the woods looking for slender man's house.
No. If they died in the woods, investigators would know it wasn't murder! Good grief, that's basic forensics. If the cause of death is hypothermia, dehydration, or starvation (unlikely, since the first 2 will kill you LONG before you'd starve to death), it's obviously not murder! If someone STABBED both of them to death, then not only would that be poetic justice, but in that case then, yes, the 3 murders could be attributed to a single serial killer.
@@DonnaBrooks dead bodies in the woods are often scavenged by animals. I'm just morbidly imagining a scenario where either they are not found or partial skeletal remains are found after they have been scattered. There are many cases where pathologist cannot determine if someone died of natural causes or foul play.
@@DonnaBrooks yeah I was gonna say…
Dr Grande, could you please talk about cults and people who are prone to joining cults?
Good one. I beleive naive people are prone. Those with anxiety. Who dont get out much
Yes, that seems rather apt at the moment.
Yes!! Please!
@@provethioaltum3276 Yes, those plus people who are vulnerable due to whatever personal problems.I left two cults, that's why I know.
@@provethioaltum3276 Being naive has nothing to do with proneness to being targeted by, and subsequently falling victim to, cults. It's a misguided misconception really; just as the misconception (or rather, to be frank, the ignorance) that cult members are people with a lower spectrum IQ (i.e. they are stupid) and therefore easily fooled (i.e. lacking knowledge, life experience and analytic and rational capabilities - i.e. aka "naive"). There are actually a number of really knowledgeable youtube-channels that deals with cults: cult structures, strategies, psychology etc.. I can recommend Chris Shelton for instance - he's a former 2:nd gen scientologist who primarily deals with scientology and it's construct, but also has a lot of material dealing with cults in general - including interwievs with cult experts and the like.
I'd also recommend Steven Hassan: an ex-mooni turned cult expert and the developer of the BITE-model. Jon Atack is a frequent guest on Chris Shelton's chanel (and he also has his own youtube chanel) - Atack's prime "target" is scientology, but he's really more of a rennessance man genius: highly intelligent, well read and deeply knowledgeable about a wide range of areas of studies from L. Ron Hubbards morning rutine to ... well, frankly, more or less any subject you can think off - including cult psychology.
That said, I'd say you're halfway correct when it comes to anxiety and people who don't get out much. I say "halfway" because anxiety as a specific wouldn't be as commonly seen as people who're going through a difficult period in their life, who experience temporary instability, who are not necessarily used to dealing with mental (or otherwise) hardship.
Not getting out much is also a halfway:er in that social isolation and loneliness - or even a feeling of lineliness - are something of a "come-n-get-me"-sign for cult recruiters. While just sitting at home, not parttaking in the outside world, isn't.
LAstly: I appologize for my crude english skills (my brains willingness to translate for my language to english is a fluctuating occurance ). Hopefully I managed to make some sense at least (while simultaneusly leaving myself with an irritating notion that I might just have managed to write three quarters of a book and _still_ compleately missed my own target).
Oh, well. Anyway.
Cheers!
It is a good idea to keep horror themed shows away from kids unless you take the time to explain that it's all pretend. My parents ruined horror for me. "Those are people with special makeup. Some of the monsters were made using computers, some are puppets or animatronics." Once I realized Freddy Kruger was a man wearing arts and crafts with makeup on I became more fascinated with grownups making money doing "arts and crafts" (practical effects and prosthetics) than what was being shown.
The horror that couldn't be saved or explained was The Shining, Cujo, Last House on the Left, Shutter Island- losing your sanity and/or hurting those who love you because your own mind has failed you. That's true horror.
This is EXACTLY how I explained sacry images to my kids too, and I swear they can only sleep at night after I explain fully how they make the movies.
@@EDDIELANE why would you let your young children watch something that scares them like that. You can get ptsd and secondary ptsd from watching horrific images.
@@pinksalt1057 I don't think she's allowing her kids to stream the Saw franchise. Seems like she explains what the images are and how they're made. The real damage comes from neglect and lack of communication on the parent's end. If you don't monitor and interact with your child then yes PTSD can occur because the child had no safe place to express their fears and subsequently have them put to rest.
No, my kid isn't following in my footsteps of watching horror at 6 (saw Child's Play prior to Nightmare on Elm St.) because that's my choice. She's seen Courage the Cowardly Dog as a stepping stone to scary stuff. If she has an interest I'll nurture it gradually. If not, then more late night horror showings alone for me.
@@pinksalt1057 sometimes they see stuff by accident man, like previews or something. You have to be ready to help them understand. Kids are scared of mascots, lol
@@EDDIELANE I get it, I just don't know if a tv is a necessary part of the house nowadays, with all that they can expose anyone too without any notice, for example the preview of a scary movie.
YES! DR GRANDE TIME!!! I love the recent topics!
Thank you Dr. Grande! I found it very interesting what you were saying about limiting but not restricting children's viewing of certain content. There has to be balance and regular monitoring so that a discussion can take place if there are any concerns. Love all your videos, cannot stop watching them!
Leutner was so lucky she survived ... poor girl :/
Excellent presentation and I agree with your opinions all the way. And on the heels of this topic, I'd like to expand this picture and ask if you'd give a presentation on "mass hysteria" ...{please}?
I remember one case from my psychology class, mass hysteria is very interesting.
The thing that makes me unsympathetic to these girls is they didn't seem scared of the monster, but instead seemed to "like" him and were seeking him out. That is the most disturbing part to me. That poor little girl who was attacked, I can't even imagine the psychic scarring that would leave.
TBH the part of siding with Slenderman seemed the most relatable to me. I can see how siding with a figure like that might be comforting.
Like circumcision.
@@Tadesan Cheesy frothy smegma all up in your foreskin folds can also contribute to horrific trauma for the female partners of the uncircumcised. You can keep your smeggerz.
I find it disturbing what you find the most disturbing part. The whole attempted m****r part is disturbing
Hey, could you talk about Shutter island? I just watched it and o boy, the denial of reality would be very interesting to hear be analyzed by a professional like you!
I would like to hear his thoughts on the Brooke Skylar Richardson case! Denial is crazy!
Excellent idea! I'd love to see that sort of topic analysed by you too, Dr Grande. Thank you for suggesting, Shutter Island is a great movie, haven't watched it in years, good call!
Yes, Shutter Island was creepy and scary. I think it's because that could have really happened, minus some minor theatrics.
Dude your channel got me up 'til 5 am learning (and enjoying it)! Thank you a lot, I love your videos!
Your insight on this case is very interesting. I guess because I cope with Bipolar 2 w/psychotic features, I believe that 40 years in a mental hospital isn't long enough. Geyser should NEVER be released based on her diagnosis of early onset schizophrenia and oppositional defiant disorder & her crime. If Geyser gets out, who is going to make sure she STAYS on her medication to protect society? I'm not at all comfortable with people like Geyser running around w/o some sort of very close supervision. But hey, what do I know? I'm not a doctor, just someone with a lifetime of personal experience with a severe mental illness.
A very impressive case! Thanks for making again a fascinating video, Dr. Grande 😃🇳🇱
I’m so glad Dr Grande’s videos came up in my recommended on YT! Now his channel is part of my regular viewing; such good educational information, and the humor always makes me laugh.
This was really interesting, and there were several factors you explained that were eerie similar to the Parker-Hulmes case (isolation, feeling of being special, their own fantasy world...).
This dude just keeps dropping heat dr todd is the goat
This case was incredibly disturbing! The lack of empathy is profound. Thank God a passerby found that poor girl. ⚘
This reminded me to take my antipsychotic meds. I’m schizophrenic and actually enjoy being a functioning member of society! We aren’t all like this x
Good on you for taking your medication regularly. I am an asthmatic so I know what it's like to manage a chronic illness. I use my diary to keep track of my medications and I have stayed out of hospital for decades (apart from operations). We are both helping the health system to cope by managing our conditions sensibly. 😊🌷🌼🌸☘🌿
Good for you for taking your medicine. Please stay on your medication. Take care of yourself. And we know that most Schizophrenics are not dangerous.. Peace to you.
Great video. I started watching your content around a week ago and can’t get enough, very informative and intelligent thank you.
Hi Dr.Grande. I work as a early childhood care provider and would love to see a video about the mass trauma that young children may develop due to the pandemic. Love your videos!
yes... masking up kids is very unhealthy.
I think that kids would take their cues from the adults around them. If they see adults forming a strong protective wall around them by using vaccines, masks and sometimes lockdowns, they will feel that the adults are actively looking after them, protecting them from harm. Life always has dangers. The kids need to learn that dangers can be managed. You look both ways before you cross the road. You ride your bike carefully when near a road and drive carefully as an adult. You give up smoking and drink alcohol in moderation (or better still, not at all). You choose which movies to watch so you can sleep at night. If there's something scary happening in your life, you know that your parents will always listen in a kindly, helpful way.
@@MoneyStrategiesSOULutions mass trauma? I have 7 grandchildren. 3 who are school aged and were required to mask. Trauma comes from hysterical parents who raised hell from parents screaming about masking. My grandchildren NEVER complained. Children take their cues from adults.
This is similar to how I perceive many religious killings, an order from or an attempt to pleas a higher being.
(Of course this is only how I view the situation and I tend to think very negatively about religion)
Interesting topic! Thank you Dr Grande.
I remember a story of reunited twins that had this or similar shared psychosis.. peculiar & interesting!
It appears these young girls may have fanned their own desire for control until it control them.. it seems slightly different to the reunited twins. I've no previous knowledge of this story.. so appreciate I may be well off the mark HAHA.. deeply fascinating on all counts! As undoubtedly the possibility of them trying to mimic 'madness' was ruled out.
This only increases my fascination with the goings on of the human mind. Thanks again Doc!
Can you do the Versace/Andrew Cunanan case? The Netflix show was beyond crazy.
This was my ex and his mother. He took on her persona right down to her speech, at times if I closed my eyes and listen to him speak, I couldn’t distinguish who was speaking. He was abused horribly from around the age of 2 and especially during his potty training years by his mother, his father was nonexistent. Around the age of 6, his mother taught him how to boil hot water and throw on the kittens that would come around their house, seeking food. This was a story that he would relay to guest at barbecues, so nonchalantly. It’s no wonder why we were never invited back.
He later on became her emotional sonhusband and any female in his life, to include his own children became enemy # number one in the mother’s eyes.
I’ve never experienced anything like this in my life. It was very mind- boggling and creepy seeing his mother act like a woman competing for a man. She would call & text him up 30 times a day, every day. What sent me to the psychologist’s chair, was when I discovered several selfies in his phone, of his mother: one in a two piece bikini, legs spread, one of her wrapped in a towel after a shower, another of her laying on a bed, with shirt lifted up, exposing her breast ..smirking in the camera, there’s more. These came weekly. He was 34, she.. 63.
I came across the pictures saved in his phone and couldn’t believe my own eyes. I thought something was wrong with me (hence the psychologist). I screenshot them and sent them to my phone, then I confronted him and asked: “This is your mom, right? The children’s grandmother?” To this he answered yes, then I asked: “Do these pictures not make you uncomfortable in anyway?” His response: “No. Why should they? That’s my mother, that’s just the way she is.” Said like this was just a normal thing.
So I then asked this way: “Then what would stop you, from sending your children pictures like these?”
His response was explosive and threatening....”WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, THAT MY MOTHER MOLESTED ME!! Bitch I’ll kill you!”
It’s then I started planning my silent escape with the children, not before a long, horrendous custody battle, which he and his mother orchestrated.
3 years later we are here, the children and I, safe above ground. I knew if given the word from his mother, which I knew was coming, he would’ve killed us all.
He was later diagnosed as NPD co-morbid with schizophrenia. And, the mother psychopath, by proxy.
Hi Dr. Grande, these videos are great, you have great spins on the different topics and I think the case studies are very illuminating :) Thanks for sharing all this information. I was wondering, do psychopaths assert power out of fear or insecurity or is the need for dominance not always driven by a feeling of lack of power? Me and a friend discussed this and couldn't seem to agree, so I figured you as a professional might know. Thanks again for the videos!
Dr. Grande professionally presents this topic, but I'm not at the point where I can listen very long to analyses of draconian criminality. Consequently, I only listened to timecode 3:44. There are just far too many horrors in the world in which we live. I'm glad the Dr. tries to make sense of it, however, as he is trained to do so, but as a layperson, there's a limit to the amount of diabolical and dystopic happenings I can process. Kudos to Dr. Grande for delving into this subject. His dedication to understanding and explaining human behavior no matter how disturbing is something I much admire, and it may ultimately help society prevent the kinds of Mephistophelean activities he discusses going forward.
"Contageous delusions..." that sums it up. I've seen it myself.... a slippery slope, especially when they have a victim/scapegoat.
I know my daughter’s inside and out. I stayed home with them, I was a classroom mom, the whole thing. My son was a little bit harder to read, he got away with things I had no idea about until later. I hold parents responsible no matter what the situation.
the sleepover was enough time to be unsupervised , nobody is mentioning what the parents were doing during the time of those children were spending outdoors.
I feel like a lot of kids that age end up watching scary videos/movies. I watched a lot as a pre-teen. She was obviously very susceptible to things like that and it triggered something in her. Like you said, this is a very unusual and strange case.
I was deeply into AMW and murder & mayhem cases in general when I was that age(REAL stories, though ghost stories were spooky-fun, too). I witnessed death with a straight face even before then. Here I am, a well-adjusted (eheh) adult, never stabbed anybody in my life. In fact, I'd say I'm rather anti-stabbing, lol. This case definitely goes deeper than simple exposure to scary stories & images. Hopefully their rehabilitation yields results, I'd like to hear more speculation about the mental health and personality factors that may contribute to a situation like this!
Fascinating case, it is heartbreaking in so many ways!
Great analysis as usual Dr. Grande!
I watched the 2 hours video of the psychiatrist that did the girl’s forense evaluation .The psychiatrist said that Morgan often heard voices, she had an imaginary friend called Maggie that she used to talk often, she thought Maggie was real. He said that Morgan told her mother several times about hearing voices and her mother said she would punish her if she kept talking about this, she used the word “punish “. I had no doubt that this crime Could be preventable. Morgan’s father is schizophrenic and once she told her mom that she was hearing voices why on earth her mother didn’t take her to a psychiatrist?.
He said Morgan was feeling sad when the voices went away, with medication, and he said it’s understandable because her imaginary friends “died”, I believe this explain well why this crime was preventable .
This was a very compassionate commentary on this sad and shocking case. I'd been concerned about them being charged with murder. For girls of that age to commit a violent assault/attempted murder based on belief in an internet meme is to me, by default, hard proof of some kind of severe mental issue. Mentally healthy people simply don't try to kill others to placate a cartoon/creepypasta character. There are times when social punishment for intentional, knowing acts of antisocial behavior may be necessary and productive, but in this case, "punishment' is not going to change the underlying mental illness...only add more trauma and possibly other mental problems. These girls need help...as does their intended victim...and hopefully they will get it. The social cry to see a child or anyone "punished" (negative) for being sick rather than being contained for safety and healing (positive) says as frightening a thing about us as human beings, and our lack of understanding about mental illness, as does the fact that these two girls did what they did.
I feel like we should be getting CME credits for watching Dr Grande's videos!
Wow, Dr. Grande, this is the most interesting case imo! Thanks for sharing! I believe at the age of 12 years, children are very influential. I recall my childhood. I was going through puberty and that was my most difficult year. I had an obsession about being a "good" child and prayed most of the time. I even believed "God" could hear my thoughts. If I had a bad thought, I would pray over and over. I grew up in a family of 7 children where I was 2nd eldest. I always wanted to make everything good and take care of others. I even presented my wish to my father to become a Nun. Amazing time for me.
This analysis bought me back to that time. Very intense case. Great work Dr. Grande!!
"It's a good idea to keep horrifying content away from children."
Umm... have you *heard* any fairy tales recently?
You gave me a good laugh. I used to joke that stories of bridge trolls were probably to keep children from interacting with hobos sleeping beneath.
Or nursery rhymes or (old?) kids’ simple prayers? “When the bough breaks the cradle will fall” and “If I should die before I wake ...”
Right? The Brothers Grimm and HC Andersen wrote some scary fables and fairytales. “Red Shoes” by HC Andersen still gives me the creeps!
If you didn't know, creepypasta stuff like Slenderman had a lot to do with death
There are lots of really good quality children's books at your local library. I think it's best to steer clear of fairy stories. Jackie French writes marvellous books for kids.
There is also a case here in Utah involving 2 teen boys which were good friends of my nieces before this happened. They told a 14 year old girl they wanted to meet with her to but a ring from her in back if a building. When she got there they asked her to help them search for something they lost and when her back was turned to them they shot her in the back of the head. She survived but the bullet cannot be removed from her. These were good religious seeming kids who went to church each Sunday and pretended to have extremely high moral standards. They'd just been to my nieces birthday party a few weeks before this happened. Such a shock..
This story has been the subject of nightmares for my 10 yr old nephew for years.
Imagine my horror when o discovered my 12 year old daughter had watched The Human Centipede on Netflix 😐 I'm a millennial so I thought I'd been pretty careful. I changed my password and put a parental lock on my Netflix after that 🙃
Good for you! My ex isn't that smart and I am actually quite worried what she is letting her daughter get away with...
You're raising a snowflake ❄️
Funny how age changes ya. I remember watching the human centipede with my uncle when I was either in my late teens or early 20s and we were laughing at how downright ridiculous it was. Tbf we had been drinking and smoking weed but I couldn't believe how bad that movie was after all the hype it had gotten. That being said, if I'd watched it when I was 12 I probably would have been terrified. I remember watching Blade with my older brother when I was like 8 and it scared tf out of me 😂 Being a grown ass man now I'd consider it to be an 'action' movie rather than a 'horror' movie. As I got older the things that scare me in cinema are things that could actually happen. Realism terrifies me more than fantasy. For instance, I watched Pulp Fiction for the first time when I was like 12 and the 'bring out the gimp' scene had my palms sweating. I'll never forget the first time I watched that. I had no idea what was coming when Butch pushed open that door... and it was worse than what I even imagined. Another terrifying scene for me was in Reservoir Dogs when Michael Madsens character has the cop tied up in the warehouse. Where he cuts off the cops ear then drenches him in petrol, all the while he's giddily dancing to 'stuck in the middle with you'. That shit made me so uncomfortable haha.
I remember reading about this case at the time and thinking that the two girls were probably dabbling in the occult.
I'm a part of the creppypasta fandom since I was 10 years old (I'm 18 now and I'm still in the fandom), and this case was so shocking to me, most of the fandom was surprised and I just hope that outsiders will understand that not everyone on the community believed in the actual existence of the creppypasta characters, must of us just love horror, but surely the fact that the community is full of childrens makes it kind of dangerous, because of situations like this one.
Yeah, I feel you. I was 16 when this happened. I really loved creepypasta at the time and so did many of my friends, and near Halloween every year my friends and I volunteered at the local haunted house to explore the genere of horror. But by no means did we think it was real.
Also, while I'm still fascinated with horror, my haunted house days are done. In my second year of volunteering (also 16), I was a screamer (dressed as Jeff the Killer) and in one night this all happened: a 14 yo boy slammed my body with a door multiple times (the door had rusted nails sticking out of it that got me), a creepy pervert tried to feel me up, my best friend in another room was molested by the same guy, one of my other friends was cornerd and threatened to be raped, and one of the other actresses was stabbed with a plastic knife in the neck by the same 14 yo boy (she was hurt pretty badly but thankfully ended up okay). It was a horrifying night; a nightmare come to life. I still am a bit scared from that since I ended up having a panic attack, but people passed me by since they thought I was acting. The haunted house was shut down and the police "investigated" but decided not to do anything eventhough multiple people were physically attacked, injured, or nearly raped.
The next day at school I also remember hearing people complaining that the haunted house shut down early for "no good reason" and I shut them up fast.
I did go the next year but I was a shadow, so I didn't do much scaring and mostly went around to the actors to see if they were doing okay, if they needed food or water or a break.
But yeah, after that I don't think I'll go to another haunted house, eventhough I still love horror. That was just too much.
I was reading Stephen King etc when I was 12 and any other spooky, dark scary stories. And I turned out just fine. And knew fiction from fantasy.
Sickening 😞, but thank God for the courage and resilience of Payton.
Thanks Dr. Grande! Love videos like these.
Slender Man sounds like a stand up guy. A pillar of the community and someone you would leave your children with without hesitation.
Thank you for acknowledging Ludner as an incredibly Brave individual, instead of just calling her a little girl.
I was intrigued by your recent analysis of the New Zealand girls who murdered one of the girl's mothers that I downloaded a book by Peter Graham which was quite detailed, with varied diagnoses of the girls, Pauline and Juliet in the 1950's. Those girls were intelligent, moody and creative but isolated themselves from others. I knew the story but was mostly interested in how they ended up. They are now in their 80's, desire no contact with each other. Juliet is a successful writer and Pauline loves disabled children and horses and teaches riding. So I was very interested in this video about the Slenderman girls. I wonder if adolescent hormones triggered these delusions.
What's the name of the book, please? I've been interested in this case since seeing the movie "Beautiful Creatures' years ago
@@judepower4425 "Anne Perry and the Murder of the Century" by Peter Graham.
I wondered about that, too. Before they become interested in boys, some teenage girls have crushes on teachers, movie stars or each other. In both cases, this one and the NZ one, perhaps the crushes were so extreme as to result in murder in the NZ case and as to almost result in murder in the case of these two girls.
Peter Jackson directed a movie about the murder called Heavenly Creatures.
Could you analyze the murder of Shanda Sharer by four female teenage assailants? It's a fascinating case and would love to hear your thoughts on it.
I just read about that case a few days ago... it's incredibly disturbing how violent kids so young can be.
This case is just awful 😭
Just Ellie, I live about 20 mins from where it happened . It was big news for a small town in Indiana. There is a book based on it as well! I would love to hear his analyze on it, great suggestion!
Still, one of the most heartbreaking cases I've ever looked into.. that poor baby.
Slender man was supposed seen in many pictures taken over the years. This has always been a strange story over the years.
I’m here from Dr. Grande’s 600k sub video 😎
Would you maybe make a video about the Netflix series 13 reason why? The way sucide and mental illness is treaded is wierd, to say it nicely.
I'm a bit late to this party (only just discovered your channel, which I'm very much enjoying), but this case is very interesting to me. The idea that the girls had an aim of making people 'realise Slenderman is real' suggests they were perfectly aware of his internet creation. I suspect no amount of parental monitoring/guidance would have obviated their obsession, as it had already survived the 'reality test'. Although such young girls either committing or attempting murder is rare, there are a whole slew of less serious cases involving pubescent/early teen girls sharing delusions. It suggests a hormonal component to their disordered thinking, their psychology and emotions being in temporary disarray whilst their hormones are all over the place, which later become more balanced.
yes I think the hormonal surge at puberty can make girls mental health go wild for a bit. I had intense anxiety, paronia and obbsessive traits around that time.
Amazing horror story. How NICE, The poor victim survived! Ties in well with your previous fascinating: "folie a deux," presentation. Very unusual circumstances. Evidently, psychopathy knows no age boundaries. "Creative weirdo,"= homicidal maniac. Great food for thought during this tedious quarantine period. Bravo from Michigan!
I'd love to see you do the case of the Tromp Family. It's a shared delusion case
I love these. Keep it up
I don’t think this case was publicized very well because this is one of the most fascinating videos you’ve ever done and I see only 355 comments. I’m pretty surprised by that. The only part of this that seems preventable maybe is the bullying which is a big problem that needs a surgically precise strategy on a national level.
Maybe other educators were able to prepare something for school children that’s effective anti bullying material, but in my view the best strategy would be to begin with the aftermath on families and then turn the focus to antecedent events when bullying is involved . So an educational video targeting school children regarding unforeseen effects of bullying that continues because children are unaware of late effects. I’d like to see you do a video like that.
I say this because you have a talent for presenting in an exquisitely powerful way how devastating the outcome is for victims and so I consider you to be in a unique position to come up with something like this.
As for this particular video I just viewed, I’m not sure how you could rename it so more people will see it, but it’s fascinating. It’s too bad you need a more sensational title since the goal appears to be keeping these cases less sensational. I know that’s what distinguishes your work and I believe that’s one specific reason people follow you. But the schoolgirl killers notion is truly unique and I’m amazed I missed this case in the news.
I really want to thank you for all your careful work presenting these topics to the general public. Your channel content is just superb!
I'd love to see a video about your take on the mental health and personality of Klaus Kinski. Might be a bit much to ask but I'd be very interested in what you think about him.
I am always saddened by this case. All of the parents are experiencing pain and self-doubt on a level I hope none of us ever go through. That girl was a survivor, and the man on the bike was a hero. I'm glad something good came out of this mess. I hope the young attackers get the help they need.
12 year olds planning anything for 5 months is pretty impressive.
You should listen to an Afghan 12 year old talk about the war in his country. They actually know what's up and talk about how they can make it a better place to live.
@@badcornflakes6374 I've served in Afghan. The children there are born into war, as we're their parents. It's such a hard, beautiful country.
@@autumnfatale Yes, even Alexander The Great thought the same thing.
planned something for 5 months but still changed plan like 3 times
@@badcornflakes637412:42 could 'relational interdependence' be appraised by quantitative psychologists in SDD -Slender_Waekusha 'folie à deux' Case?
Man I contributed heavily to the original Slenderman thread on Something Awful and I can't help but feel a twinge of guilt when I hear this story.
You are not personally responsible.
The original artist was saddened too. But if it hadn't been 'ol Slim, it would have been some Creepy Pasta character, or perhaps an actual, living or dead, lunatic. There was a problem with these kids long before they stumbled across Slenderman's stories. Probably would have grown into religious fanatics. I hope their therapy works.
I know the internet doesn't CAUSE things like this but this is one of the reasons I do not allow my kids to view violent imagery or be unsupervised on the internet. :/
I think it is a similar phenomenon to violence in video games. The vast majority of teenagers won't be more violent or delusional due to games or internet content, but the small percentage who are vulnerable due to initially unrelated mental health issues can be affected negatively. On the other hand, those teens would possibly end up similar places, internet or not, if there mental health issues weren't properly treated.
Also, even kids who aren't delusional or violent can simply be scared by this type of content, which is also a very valid concern for a parent.
Good for you Tarren!
Oh, I made a comment regarding a similar case. The Erickson Twins were diagnosed with Folie à deux, I had asked if you could explain more about this diagnosis. So, job done. Please disregard my previous comments on this subject. Thank you.
Thank you so much for a well-informed take on this case and on so many others. I find it to be a little lazy on the part of commentators on documentaries or tv shows to reduce people to simply “evil” without exploring the nuance of their experiences, personality and all that led up to the crime. 😊 I also have a question for you Dr.Grande! Is there a correlation between handwriting and intelligence or handwriting and personality or both? I would love to see this explored on your channel! Thank you!🙏❤️
You pick the MOST interesting subjects! Thank you for all you do.❤
I am thankful to Dr Todd for clearing up the pronunciation of "folie a deux". It has been an uncertainty for me and my French is not the best.
More of this please! I love watching your content and learning at the same time. Thanks Dr. Grande!
Could this have something to do with the "dancing plague" of the 14th Century? Or is that something totally different? That phenomenon has interested me for years.
What if Slenderman actually exists? It’s pretty narrow minded to write this off as a psychological disorder just because we’re dealing with something we don’t fully understand.
I cannot express how thankful I am that the girls didn't insist on staying w/ the stabbing victim and therefore leading her deeper into the forest. I'm really surprised they left her for dead, but somehow that saved her life.
I find this very interesting. I had read about this case...only heard of Slender Man. Dr G, you should smile more 🙂
This is a great video, I really appreciate you taking time to make these
Their spending the rest of their lives with slender man in jail now
Totally different type of case, but just the words "shared" and "disorder" made me think of that case of two Swedish sisters in the UK and their crazy motorway behavior that was caught on camera, because the police were filming with...I think it was the documentary series 'Motorway Cops' . Please correct me if I'm wrong. You can find shorter and longer videos of the accident and documentaries about them on YT. 'Madness In The Fast Lane - Swedish Sisters (or twins), from 2008 Motorway Cops. It's very easy to find the episode on YT. You can also search Ursula and Sabrina Eriksson
That would be a good one to cover. Didn’t they get hit by a car multiple times and still got up and ran off?
12 year old girl: I'm going to murder my best friend and then spend the rest of my life with Slender Man in his mansion in the forrest.
Someone else: Wierd flex but ok.
Seriously, I found the whole thing way too bizarre for 12 years old. I was 12 in the late 90's and I was definitely not playing hide and seek anymore. The whole thing sounds way too childish and this case is after my generation, where kids are supposed to be less innocent and less childish (aren't they?). Slenderman is a fiction character and if she really believe she was gonna live in a mansion in the woods with him.... Seriously, how hasn't anyone ever intervened? I liked some dark stuff when I was 12 too but nothing like "oooh I'm gonna live forever in the woods with an evil lunatic (that doesn't exist)." She must have shown an inclination to crime and fascination for that kind of stuff before and no one took it seriously. Shocking.
@@argentinawinthrop Yeah I found that aspect weird as well. Just the juxtaposition of playing hide and seek (very juvenile) and committing murder. When girls are younger I feel like they all go through a phase where they become fascinated with darker subject matter, horror, the paranormal and even witchy things - Especially in the 90's! I can remember telling spooky stories and having seances with my friends lol If i recall correctly, all of that preoccupation seemed to wear off once we hit double digits and puberty. It's very interesting to imagine if it hadnt and extrapolate though. Could definitely send some kids down a dark path.
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Dr. Gran❤️e I almost feel I’m treated to the “ early-bird special” as I enjoy this insight tremendously. As per a comment yesterday to change your opening to your videos, I would say to leave them as they are - this does not draw attention to your style, I’d rather conform to traditional wisdom rather than novelty. Thanks 😅😀😄😎
Stopping and preventing bullying could have prevented this, however rare the circumstances were.
Another interesting case of Folie á duex is that of Swedish twins Ursula and Sabina Eriksson. Would be interested in your insights into their story.
Fascinating as always, but I think this case is a shaky example of that diagnosis, simply because of the girl’s ages. I think this could have occurred among two mentally healthy girls in similar circumstances. One thing that shocks me in this age of easy access to information is how naive and rigid children and young people are in their beliefs. The internet makes rational, evidence-based and reliable information as readily available as it makes extremely fantastical and dangerous information available and my own clinical experience is that our youth do not discriminate. It feels as though this ‘illuminated’ age of information is simultaneously a dark age of medievalist superstition and ignorance.
Hey Dr. Grande! Unrelated to this video. I'd love if you did a video about critique of the DSM. Specifically concerns raised in Bessel van der Kolk's "The Body Keeps the Score" about how the epidemic of childhood trauma affects mental health outcomes. Many of those with trauma that could be conceptualized as C-PTSD or the rejected diagnosis "Developmental Trauma Disorder" get diagnosed with a host of different disorders in adolescence and adulthood such as bipolar, conduct disorder, intermittent explosive disorder, antisocial personality disorder among so many others, when trauma has been clinically shown in many reliable studies to be the root cause of the symptoms we see in individuals, and often not the root of what is actually treated. What are the functions of diagnosis, how reliable/valid are they, and do we overrely on them? I'd be interested in your perspective of van der Kolk's criticisms of the DSM overall. Hopefully this general question was phrased well!
Those girls owe their friend an apology. Those sociopaths weren’t even sorry for what they did. I’ve seen the footage of the police questioning and they were like “sorry not sorry “
If I understand correctly about shared psychotic disorder, it is a shame that these 2 girls found each other and became such good friends.
Dr grande you are amazing I’m a new fan. You are extremely smart and on point.
Dr Grande you stated that if parents are too strict that can lead to certain other problems. Can you perhaps do a video about that. What could happen ect.
Damn, it sounds a bit like a good scenario for some kind of horror movie.
Yes, like a sequel to Ginger Snaps, a horror movie about about a wendigo psychosis turned real
@@samellee7509 I think he was being sarcastic. They actually did make a slenderman movie after this case gained notoriety.
@@jadavis84 yes, I did notice the subtlety. I was just adding to that :)
Deciding that you want to be a disciple of a monster is evil, whether the monster is real or delusional. Whether you're committing murder to please Slender Man or Charles Manson, you're still deciding to do something that you know is evil. And that's where my sympathy for those girls goes 100% out the window. I don't think either of them should ever take another free breath because they have already demonstrated beyond doubt that they lack empathy and a conscience.
If they thought that their friend was a disciple of Slender Man and attacked her to keep her from kidnapping and killing another child, that would be a different story.
I had a meltdown today and seeing this video made me feel so happy. I’ve wanted to hear your thoughts on this case for so long since I experienced something quite similar in my childhood, which I may share in another comment. Either way, thanks Dr.Grande!
Thank you Dr. Grande for your whit, intelligence and thoughtfulness! My man friend has delusions of grandeur and a Messiah complex so I am always interested in delusions in others... somehow it helps to hear that he is not alone in his condition tragic as it is. God bless these poor children and people struggling with these health issues!
I remember that phase of my life where I was somewhere between childhood and being a young adult. I was around 13-14 years old and became obsessed and engrossed in fantasy worlds and fandoms in order to escape. I didn't have the best reality and created a different one and I developed an obsessive creativity for doing so that I didn't possess prior to puberty. When I got to about 16 or 17 something changed biochemically and I snapped out of it. It seems to be common for adolescent girls especially to get extremely caught up in fandoms and fantasy and it seems that this time for whatever reason things took a very dark turn.
Suggested topic :
Ezra Mccandless (fake name)
.
Born to young teen parents.
Biological father left.
She grew up in a dysfunctional house.
Adopted a male persona as a defence mechanism against abuse.
Started to tell lies a lot.
Met Jason in nearby college town at a coffe shop... slightly older.... got unexpectedly pregnant and decided to terminate the pregnancy since her mother believed having children so young was unwise.
Terminated the pregnancy on her birthday.
The emotion of the terminated pregnancy broke up her relationship with Jason.
She started becoming involved with two men..... Alex, kind and philosophical....and John, an army member and Jasons best friend.
Both relationships were based in guilt and fuelled by the unresolved misery of the terminated pregnancy on her birthday.
.
Ezra told Jason John had taken advantage of her when drunk.
Then said Alex did too.
Essentially lies.
.
Jason wanted to kill John.
Jason hated Alex.
Ezra and Jason broke up but tried to work things out.
Jason encouraged Ezra to file a Police report against John charged with rape.
The Police talked with Alex who said there was no rape, it was guilt......
Police read sexy messages back and forth to John after the "rape"
Jason found out the truth.
Jason got angry.
Jason and Ezra broke up.
A month passes and Ezra show up in town dishevelled instead of excessively dressed with makeup.
Ezra has copied Alex writing journals except hers are disturbed and angry.
She has drawn hersels as a "tricky fox"..
...her self described "spirit animal" attacking her problems with a knife.
.
Jason sees her at the coffee shop but they barely speak.
Ezra drives off and unexpectedly meets with Alex.
Jason sensed there was something wrong and randomly decides to go to Alexs apartment.
Ezras car is outside running.
Jason waits nervously.
Someone sees Jason nervously walking around and calls Police.
Jason bursts through the door on Ezra and Alex.
Police arrive.
Ezra and Alex leave to "go somewhere public to talk"
.
Alex is stabbed 16 times.
The first blow penetrating into his brain from the back side may have paralysed him.
His neck was cut three times.
His genitals were stabbed.
.
She claimed self defence.
She looks like different people in many photos.
This reminds me of the Papin Sisters murder case. Your analysis of that would be interesting.
Can you do a video on why some people may self-sabotage potential relationships or deny suitors after a failed relationship with someone with NPD? For years even?
Thank you for all your talks
I'd love to hear that!
I know someone who can jump straight into another relationship after a failed one, even if it ends horribly. It's like they hit a reset button, and carry no baggage from one attempt at romance into the next. Being single gives them anxiety.
I also know someone who experienced a total of three romantic relationships, each of which lasted 3-5 years, and now refuses to ever date again. They did have terrible luck - the first one ending in suicide, the second being a narcissist, and the last having an undiagnosed CC disorder. Those last two did progress to engagement before being broken off, one after the narcissistic abuse became escapable, and the other after a cheating incident & the SO becoming emotionally distant(the cheating evidently wasn't enough by itself). Not only do they now lack any desire to date, marry, or have kids(which they used to look forward to), but have distanced themselves from friends and family, too, and have become rather agoraphobic. Since one partner denied them the ability to carry a phone unless it was to track them, they now hate phones and get anxious or angry at the thought of even owning one. And that was almost seven years ago. I can agree with part of their decision, but can see that their ability to function socially has degraded immensely. Yet they still communicate with both their surviving exes! Why??
@@wolfafterdark perhaps it's Learned Helplessness. When you live in a very codependent relationship, abusive even, you learn to stop having your own needs and always wait for the response of your partner.
They need to stop communicating with their ex. It's the only way. And it will feel awful for a long while and maybe even feel suicidal being apart, but after a while you start to get independence back. Working, talking to your own friends who dont know the ex, having a phone for communication or a car for transport, these are helpful things that will help her feel independent at least externally again.
It takes a long time for the fog to lift, and for emotions to feel like your own again. They can never get their ex's voices out of her head while they are still communicating at all with them. They will continue to torture themselves, repeating the awful, untrue things they were told so long as those people are in their life.
I watched Sam Vaknin and learned a lot from him. Some Richard Grannon too though he gets most his ideas from Dr. Vaknin I think he is a good translator though. You can try watching them. Your friend may like either of those 2