ERROR: The hs-CRP values I show in this video are in mg/L units (not mg/dL as I claimed). I will look over the videos and see if I need to remove them or reupload with notes added. For now, just note that all values I mention are actually mg/L, which is what you are most likely to see from your clinic or hospital anyway. Sorry for the mixup! - Jarred Younger
Thx for pinning, this is important! Was worried about that when watching because my crps are always round about 0.5mg/dl (=5 mg/l; all tests over months/years 0.3-0.5 mg/dl) and would have fallen out of your study while having bedbound mecfs. I am sry and feel dumb to ask but Is there any other difference in hsCRP and CRP that turns the same value from "significantly inreased" of 3-5mg/l hsCRP to completely normal and healthy of everything below 5mg/l in normal CRP? I thought the main difference was just the sensitivity of the hsCRP test in lower values being more accurate and differ in test timetables. Ie just more acurately defined the lower values. So how do the exact same values / concentration get completely redefined? It doesn't make sense to me😢
I really love your videos. Most researchers are terrified of talking about conjectures just in case they might turn out to be wrong. It's very refreshing to hear you speculate on some theories. Keep it up please! As to CRP, I wonder if it could be an early predictor to later chronic diseases. There are a lot of slow developing chronic diseases that we miss because we look at the wrong parameters, and we classify people as "healthy" although some blood values are already far in the red. (IMO "healthy" is much, much more than "symptom free".) Take for example fasting insulin and/or the HOMA score which are excellent predictors of later T2D, but they're missed in practice because hardly anyone measures fasting insulin. (Everyone looks only at blood glucose which is often lags decades behind insulin.) So, if we had time, then I'd take 1000 "healthy controls", partition them by CRP, observe them for 10 years and see which kind of chronic diseases they develop. My conjecture would be that those with high CRP have a much higher risk of developing ME/CFS or Fibromyalgia.
"I can't just show these data in a paper, it merely serves as an input to develop a hypothesis". Wish 80% of other medical researchers would think this way :-)
Dr. Younger, this explanation tracks for what I've experienced. I have severe ME/CFS, and 90% plus homebound. Lots of fibromyalgia as well. I take a large battery of blood testing 3 times per year for my fatigue specialist in Marietta, GA. It's generally about 22 vials of blood per visit. On days when I've taken those blood tests and I've been VERY weak, extreme brain fog, my vision is poor, my coordination is poor (I have to use a walker to avoid falls that day), my CRP level is upward of 7. It has been as low as 3.9 on a good day. I've used NSAIDs on the days when it's that bad, and I have to say that NSAIDs might help a little with the headaches, but not with anything else. So, I'm hopeful that there will be other (more affective) treatments found that address the neuro- and bodily inflammation. Thank you SO much for everything you do. Follow-up question: My mother is looking into how to help financially with your research. What is the best way for her to do that?
Am same , 4 yrs long c, w previous comorbidites, mold, long Lyme., celiac w gut dysbiosis, no clinic in RI, yr reactions fir his theories, consider hydration , saline iv after draw.. check methylation blue, Dr Paul Anderson, Seattle, chronic diseases.+lots more, buy top of the line🙏💞
It'd be nice if more attention was paid to hormones. My sister has been very severe for 12 years and we observed early on that menstrual cycle drives her inflammation. In a matter of 24h from LH spike lots of her symptoms shift every month. Only PEM presentation is so consistent in time domain.
You're right. I did a study a few years ago tracking estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, and cortisol and saw a clear relationship between day-to-day changes in the hormones, and pain and fatigue severity (this was done in women with fibromyalgia). - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab Thank you for your work and pointing at your study on FM patients. Very nice. We are so intrigued to know how exactly microglial activation could impact the Pituitary. Especially to understand neuro-endocrine systemic effects on inflammation, infiltration and wound healing, given her recurrent hemangiomas. But also OI/POTS and beyond sex hormones (E.g ADH in relation to hypovolemia). Sorry if I digress. So much to unpack... Thank you again for giving us hope!
I cannot put down here how bad my cycles were Too much information but I can tell you the main thing that saved me was i quit ingesting anything with hormones in it
10:13 "...C-RP is elevated during or after the pandemic..." Just a thought, isn't there a link between chronic stress and chronic inflammation? Environmental stresses and psychological illnesses like anxiety and depression can be inflammatory. If so, then I'm curious if cortisol has a correlation with C-RP. However, cortisol levels can likewise vary even on hourly basis, but, at least, it can be measured at home using saliva tests. Thoughts?
We finished collecting those data. I am just wrapping up a grant submission and then will get back to analyses. I have to finish up a magnetic resonance imaging spectroscopic paper first and then the PET data is next up. As soon as I have the patient-control contrasts done, I will present them. I am guessing analyses will be done Dec or Jan. - Jarred Younger
Maybe this comment belongs on your video about your very long potential treatments list, but I see you're active here rn so will post it here. I wanted to mention that the intervention which helped me the most over the years (not knowing that what I have is likely ME/CFS) is something called Systemic Integration for Adults. It's basically some very simple techniques for tricking your brain into ignoring a variety of stimuli, thus giving it a bit of a breather = that bit more room for healing. Things like keeping an ice cube in your mouth for a little while, gently sweeping your feet (in opposite directions) over the floor as you sit, and using a backpack instead of a shoulder bag. You do this if you're in bright and noisy environments, for example. Like at a doctor's appointment when you have to uncover your ears, or in a restaurant if you can go to those. Obviously not suitable for severe ME, but may help other people with mild and moderate cases. I was taught these techniques by an OT specialized in neurological conditions. They're really intended for specific conditions that don't apply to me, but they significantly increased my functional capacity in just a few weeks.
I have Lupus, Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy, Fibromyalgia, and CFS. My Sed Rate and CRP are monitored every 4-6 months since 2017. These levels have been much higher, and more continually so, since the CFS symptoms started around 2020. For me, the Sed Rate stays higher when my experience of negative symptoms have been more consistently worse (ie feeling sicker most days of the week for several weeks/months). My CRP has more variability, and seems to fluctuate the most when I’m feeling flares starting or stopping (ie new levels/degrees of sickness/disability on top of the chronic background levels going on). It’s like my Sed Rate is measuring the amount of wood burning in a fire and my CRP is measuring how much lighter fluid (increase) or water (decrease) is being applied to the existing fire. I think both are important to track.
I intuitively tested another individual that had lupus. In my findings, it seems that they have multiple pathogens going on at the same time and the body doesn’t know how to operate it’s immune system with each pathogen. The solution for one pathogen maybe conflicting with the solutions needed to fight the other pathogens. To me it kind of describes autoimmune disease. You can maybe try doing testing for pathogens in your body and see what you come up with. Disclosure: I’m not a Doctor
It's a good analogy. Sed rate is definitely the more stable of the two. CRP is designed to kick the inflammatory process into gear. It can rise and fall back to normal in a few hours. So your observations are correct. - Jarred Younger
Astralagus and panax gensing. 3 types MG. Vitamin D with k2. Lions mane, 3 other mushrooms. phosphidityl serine. Coq10. Reservetrol. All help but no cure. Have diagnosis of fms and cfs now for 30 years. Have my own study published in Journal of Musculoskeletal Pain years ago. Keep the study going,wish they did more when i first got this was called fibrositis.
The standard American diet is highly inflammatory. I think most people live with level of inflammation that affects their lives but are not aware how it’s affecting their lives. When Covid hit - it hit most strongly the people who already had high levels of inflammation owing to diet and various medical conditions. I read a few studies that suggested that people who normally - because of diet and supplementation, etc. have very low levels of inflammation - experienced the virus very mildly if at all - or being infectious but not symptomatic.
I agree. I think people will be shocked at how inflammatory their diet is once we can get continuous inflammatory monitoring available. I believe people could make better decisions about their diet if they just had accurate data to work with. - Jarred Younger
were the participants in this study asked to discontinue use of anti-inflammatories before having the blood tests? if not, why not? thank you very much for your work.
Good question. They weren't allowed to participate if they had autoimmune/rheumatologic disorders, or taking anti-inflammatories daily. We also screen out for high ESR, ANA, rheumatoid factor, and dozens of other things. But we allow participants to stay on their meds during participation because I don't feel comfortable altering their therapy regimen. - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab Hi Dr. Younger, just wanted to share this information for you to keep in mind for when you screen for rheumatological disorders and do the ANA test. "Based on the analysis in this testing cohort, it seems that none of the three methods included (ANA by IFA, EIA, and MIA) have sufficient sensitivity such that a negative result conclusively excludes a diagnosis of a CTD." pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33626797. I'm someone who has repeatedly negative ANA by IFA but is ANA positive by ELISA, I have positive anti-chromatin and strongly positive anti-histone antibodies, all other extensive blood tests normal including ESR and hsCRP. I suspect there are a lot of people out there like me, they only kept testing me because I have an identical twin with SLE. I eventually received a diagnosis of UCTD, however I do also fulfill SLICC criteria for SLE, I do also have a diagnosis of ME/CFS. I wonder if ME/CFS is a manifestation of neuropsychiatric SLE.
Yes good point. I wanted to do a separate video on that issue, but the quick answer is that some of the participants meet CFS criteria, but not ME/CFS criteria. CFS alone uses the Fukuda/CDC criteria that does not require PEM. I test all the different case definitions. - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab Ah, thanks, I also had this question. I know you stated previously that you use all criteria, but I'd clearly misinterpreted that to mean that all of your participants meet all of the existing definitions. I guess I read that on a foggy brain day 🙃
CRP is too broad - we need commercial tests for individual interleukins. Psoriatic Arthritis has the same problem - often low CRP, low TNF, but raised IL-23/IL17. Another problem is raised CRP is used as a metric to select patients for clinical trials (since they want a number to treat). Subsequently, doctors are biased by those results into thinking CRP has to be high to indicate PsA (while this is only true
I agree with all this. I collect around 50 inflammatory blood-based variables (mostly chemokines/cytokines) in many of my studies. And I see inflammatory conditions that "bypass" most of the conventionally recognized acute and innate immune mechanisms and instead rely on things like leptin and fractalkine. The repertoire approach is what I like, as long as there is someone to properly interpret the findings. - Jarred Younger
My hypothesis as to why the "normal" group is so high, is because they aren't normal. People become adapted to low level chronic pain, to the point where they don't even notice it. Women are also known to have a higher pain tolerance than men, so it might be interesting to compare the CRP of men who identify as not having pain and the women who identify as not having pain. If the pain tolerance is a factor, then (for a sufficiently large and random populations) the men should have lower CRP (because they have a lower pain tolerance, if higher CRP is causing pain, then the men will select out of the control at lower CRP levels)
Hey Dr Younger, thank you. Hope the grant proposal writing is going well (and that tomorrow won't lead to further derogation of science in the US). Another question if you have time: would a sprained ankle make CRP results completely unreliable? I was going to get some of these tests, but then I sprained an ankle. Read that this definitely does affect such tests, but I'm not sure to what extent. The physio says it'll be in healing mode for a couple of months. Does this mean I have to wait that long for somewhat reliable inflammation testing?
My understanding is that hsCRP is used for risk analysis for cardiovascular disease. It ihas a range of 1-3 indicates an average risk in the population not abnormal ranges (source LabCorp documents). The UK ME Biobank study of a large number of individuals show that normal CRP test (not hsCRP) average was 2 for ME vs 1 for HC and was statistically significant. But most individuals fell into normal range of CRP (
Looking at the LabCorp hsCRP test documentation and the UK ME biobank paper it sure seems your data and bars are in mg/L and not mg/dL. Can you please check your data.
Hi Dr. Younger. I have been misled. Not by you, by my VA primary care team. I am the individual taking most of the anti-inflammatory supplements that you have or are currently researching. Before I started taking supplements, my CRP level would go above 10. Since early 2020, my CRP has been approximately 3.5. I was told that this is a normal level. In your discussion you put 3.5 in the moderate to severe range. 3.5 is still better than above 10. However, I have been told my level was normal. I am confused.
10 is not normal, 3is normal, 3.5 to 10 is SOME. Inflammation, , interested in what supp given u, we r all on tons, nac, and, quercetin, choles, etc, etc 🙏💞
I gave up on the VA regarding my high CRP (ranges 8-12.5) and low GFR (ranges 58 to 48). It doesn't seem to be important to the VA in terms of monitoring, medication restrictions, and treatment. I see an outside nephrologist and rheumatologist who cares a lot for me. My rheumatologist suspects I have an autoimmune problem but not sure what kind because am I exhibiting classic symptoms of rheumatologically diseases.
From Australia, my CRP which should have been between 2- 3. I was seriously ill with diverticultus with a CRP if 248 I nearly died. 1 year later admitted to hospital with a CRP 75 antibiotics drip 3 days. 3 years later CRP 9. Still very ill with my bowel disease.
Dr. Younger, Why would we expect to see a reduced CRP in the 'healthy' population now? You've referred to the Pandemic in the past tense repeatedly, but COVID-19 is still a Pandemic. Repeat infections have indicated increased risk of developing Long Covid related symptoms. Wouldn't we be more likely to see an increase in baseline "healthy person CRP" over time as more infections have occurred leading to more post viral cases?
Dr. Younger, please consider this. SARS-CoV-2 is still spreading freely in the community as the vaccines do not prevent forward transmission, and its evolution is significantly outpacing the protection given by the yearly vaccines (which very few people are actually up to date on - 14.8% [14.0-15.6] according to 2024 CDC numbers, contrasted with 28.1% [27.0-29.3] for Influenza). SARS-CoV-2 causes persistent health problems even in "mild" or sub-clinical cases, and even in vaccinated people.
It is a good point. I wish there was a paper showing changes in CRP over the past years in healthy populations. There are so many CRP papers, but none (that I know of) in healthy individuals. My guess would be that peoples' immune systems are getting used to the insults so CRP would drop compared to 2-3 years ago. But it is also possible that the normal level will rise for a long time. I agree that if the normal level of CRP is rising, that is a very important thing to know. - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab There are quite a lot of studies saying that even mild covid infections have long term effects on the immune system. I don't have a medical or scientific background, so I have no idea if that would have effect on inflammatory markers like CRP. Could it have that? example: www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/severe-covid-19-may-lead-long-term-innate-immune-system-changes There's much more, for instance about children getting much more easily get a severe Respiratory syncytial virus infection after they got covid. In my layman's mind that would cause higher CRP?
You mention that not everyone in the ME group has PEM and maybe the ones with PEM have the higher CRP values. How do people with ME have a diagnosis of ME without PEM and do you think they should be included in the ME group analysis? I have ME (and therefore, PEM) but my CRP a few years ago was only 0.2. My ESR taken at the same time, however, was raised for 3 consecutive months then ignored. I also tested mildy positive for dsDNA antiobodies on 3 separate occasions but this was also dismissed because my ANA was normal. Do you think dsDNA antibodies could be relevant in terms of ME?
Yes I will do separate CFS and ME/CFS analyses next because the PEM element is likely a critical sign of the core pathophysiology. These things get done before the final paper is produced. It is an interesting idea about the dsDNA. I haven't run anti-dsDNA tests. I think ultimately a screening of pathologic antibodies will be needed because there are many paths that could lead to the core ME/CFS symptoms. - Jarred Younger
There's an add about Covid vaccination attached to this video. My ME/CFS doctor don't recommend any vaccination for ME/CFS patients. I feel this is a good and right advise for me (everyone need to make a decision for themselves) Could you please highlight ME/CFS and different vaccinations?
I remember that you said you believe ME could be reversed. Is this an “educated wish”? Yes, this is an also a Dead Pool Wolverine reference. How can we support your work?
I'll be talking about this soon. My main research is about inflammation that is in the brain but not expressed much in the body. The aggravated microglia in the brain don't cause an increase of inflammatory markers in the peripheral blood. - Jarred Younger
I'm wondering what is the relationship between CRP and ESR? I have always had normal CRP but ESR is elevated. I understand both are markers for inflammation - do you have info on this please?
There are many confounders. I had an infected tooth and my CRP went particularly high. The Covid vaccination is definitely a factor and the associated systemic inflammation can last for many years. Have you looked into early research using Ketones as a therapeutic aid - that would be a cool study if ketones could restore damaged nerves, regenerate myelin, and lower inflammation
For some reason my inflammation has gotten worse since I tried the Lifewave Stem cell patches. I had positive results as well but this inflammation thing I have not been able to return to baseline. I have had encephalitis severe and also several bouts of meningitis.
If I do have inflammation issues it must be coming from my brain because my levels are always normal. I thought the pain and fatigue is coming from inflammation in the brain 🤷
I have some data on several of the MMP's in fibromyalgia participants. There is quite a bit of work on MMPs in other conditions, but I haven't seen anything on fibromyalgia or ME/CFS. Given that MMPs (probably MMP-9 especially) can "assist" immune cell infiltration through the blood-brain barrier, it is very interesting to me. As we are working with the PET leukocyte brain infiltration study, I should probably start measuring MMPs again as a possible culprit. - Jarred Younger
Yep, it can move over about 3 hours. So it is possible to have maybe 3 high/low cycles in a waking day. I've done hourly CRP tests and it doesn't move much hour-to-hour, but can move significantly over a few hours. - Jarred Younger
Pretty much, but hs-CRP gives values at the lower end of the scale that CRP can't. I don't remember what the detection cutoff is for CRP, but it is probably around 5.0mg/L. Hs-CRP can measure lower. If both are available, I'd go with the hs-CRP. - Jarred Younger
I got a me/cfs , fibromyalgia,ibs diagnosis 3 years now ,i looked up the many blood test i have done and i found crp values 2 times witch is always below 0,3 . Watching your analysis and even though iam male and your data is from female i should start questioning my diagnosis.
I suggest trust your sense of reality and assessment no matter what one individual research study presents. Not questioning Jarred's work, just know this from 4 decades of PVS/ME/CFS/FM, as a male. Different research captures one specific angle on this disease process.
Unless you have a bug going on, above five, you should be really concerned. 3 or below is considered normal. 0.3 is not a level available on the test I take. I think the tests I get only range as low as
Below 1.0mg/dL would be mild and over 3.0mg/dL would be severe. Just note that 3.0mg/dL = 30mg/L (some countries and labs use /L instead of /dL). Another note - this is severe for chronic values. Acute values (such as with a bacterial infection) can go much, much higher. An emergency room doc would never say 3.0mg/dL is severe, because they are more likely dealing with extreme values involved in sepsis and other life-threatening situations where the values can be in the hundreds. - Jarred Younger
My CRP has only been elevated once when dx'd with a form of myositis but the ESR is rarely normal. Since the ESR is non-specific, doctors tend to dismiss it despite having autoimmune myopathies in addition to Fibro and CFS/ME.
@@youngerlab It could be that. I'm in Canada. Our blood sugar scales are different than the US too. My friend had CRP of 7 and liver test ccncerns. Keto and berberine normalized all that.
The difference between a good life and a bad life is how well you walk through the fire. - Carl Jung The fire of inflammation is quenched by high dose linalool. Thank me later LOL
I can't think of why that might happen. The links are th-cam.com/video/XlILMAUwiiM/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/KDL8f_ZM9GU/w-d-xo.html - Jarred Younger
Sometimes my browser makes it look like a video is unavailable when I first click the link. This usually resolves if I reload the page. Not exactly sure why this happens, but it might be related to ad blockers, VPN, connection speed and things like that.
The main possibility I research is when the inflammation is confined to the brain. It produces similar symptoms to peripheral inflammation, but all the normal clinic tests look normal. Unfortunately, there isn't a clinical tool for detecting brain inflammation, except for severe cases like meningitis. I'm trying to get the tests developed that clinicians can use to diagnose lower-level brain inflammation. - Jarred Younger
@youngerlab thanks for respons. Is the issue also that bloodtesting isent checking intracellular levels of inflammation, only outside the cells wich gives incorrect results?
ERROR: The hs-CRP values I show in this video are in mg/L units (not mg/dL as I claimed). I will look over the videos and see if I need to remove them or reupload with notes added. For now, just note that all values I mention are actually mg/L, which is what you are most likely to see from your clinic or hospital anyway. Sorry for the mixup! - Jarred Younger
Thx for pinning, this is important!
Was worried about that when watching because my crps are always round about 0.5mg/dl (=5 mg/l; all tests over months/years 0.3-0.5 mg/dl) and would have fallen out of your study while having bedbound mecfs.
I am sry and feel dumb to ask but Is there any other difference in hsCRP and CRP that turns the same value from "significantly inreased" of 3-5mg/l hsCRP to completely normal and healthy of everything below 5mg/l in normal CRP?
I thought the main difference was just the sensitivity of the hsCRP test in lower values being more accurate and differ in test timetables. Ie just more acurately defined the lower values. So how do the exact same values / concentration get completely redefined?
It doesn't make sense to me😢
It was understood😊
It is what it is.
Thank you very much for your work and research.
Good information. Keep hope alive! Thanks again.
I really love your videos. Most researchers are terrified of talking about conjectures just in case they might turn out to be wrong. It's very refreshing to hear you speculate on some theories. Keep it up please!
As to CRP, I wonder if it could be an early predictor to later chronic diseases. There are a lot of slow developing chronic diseases that we miss because we look at the wrong parameters, and we classify people as "healthy" although some blood values are already far in the red. (IMO "healthy" is much, much more than "symptom free".) Take for example fasting insulin and/or the HOMA score which are excellent predictors of later T2D, but they're missed in practice because hardly anyone measures fasting insulin. (Everyone looks only at blood glucose which is often lags decades behind insulin.)
So, if we had time, then I'd take 1000 "healthy controls", partition them by CRP, observe them for 10 years and see which kind of chronic diseases they develop. My conjecture would be that those with high CRP have a much higher risk of developing ME/CFS or Fibromyalgia.
Thank you for all the work you and your team do to find solutions.
"I can't just show these data in a paper, it merely serves as an input to develop a hypothesis".
Wish 80% of other medical researchers would think this way :-)
Dr. Younger, this explanation tracks for what I've experienced. I have severe ME/CFS, and 90% plus homebound. Lots of fibromyalgia as well. I take a large battery of blood testing 3 times per year for my fatigue specialist in Marietta, GA. It's generally about 22 vials of blood per visit. On days when I've taken those blood tests and I've been VERY weak, extreme brain fog, my vision is poor, my coordination is poor (I have to use a walker to avoid falls that day), my CRP level is upward of 7. It has been as low as 3.9 on a good day. I've used NSAIDs on the days when it's that bad, and I have to say that NSAIDs might help a little with the headaches, but not with anything else. So, I'm hopeful that there will be other (more affective) treatments found that address the neuro- and bodily inflammation. Thank you SO much for everything you do. Follow-up question: My mother is looking into how to help financially with your research. What is the best way for her to do that?
Am same , 4 yrs long c, w previous comorbidites, mold, long Lyme., celiac w gut dysbiosis, no clinic in RI, yr reactions fir his theories, consider hydration , saline iv after draw.. check methylation blue, Dr Paul Anderson, Seattle, chronic diseases.+lots more, buy top of the line🙏💞
@@brendabrenner2891iam the same comorbilities, what is helpfull for you?
thank you for your work! people like you give me hope. :)
It'd be nice if more attention was paid to hormones. My sister has been very severe for 12 years and we observed early on that menstrual cycle drives her inflammation. In a matter of 24h from LH spike lots of her symptoms shift every month. Only PEM presentation is so consistent in time domain.
You're right. I did a study a few years ago tracking estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, and cortisol and saw a clear relationship between day-to-day changes in the hormones, and pain and fatigue severity (this was done in women with fibromyalgia). - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab Thank you for your work and pointing at your study on FM patients. Very nice.
We are so intrigued to know how exactly microglial activation could impact the Pituitary. Especially to understand neuro-endocrine systemic effects on inflammation, infiltration and wound healing, given her recurrent hemangiomas. But also OI/POTS and beyond sex hormones (E.g ADH in relation to hypovolemia). Sorry if I digress. So much to unpack...
Thank you again for giving us hope!
Have a look at misha norland utube homeopathic medicine sepia good for women and hormones
@@youngerlab this is my case
I cannot put down here how bad my cycles were Too much information but I can tell you the main thing that saved me was i quit ingesting anything with hormones in it
10:13 "...C-RP is elevated during or after the pandemic..."
Just a thought, isn't there a link between chronic stress and chronic inflammation? Environmental stresses and psychological illnesses like anxiety and depression can be inflammatory. If so, then I'm curious if cortisol has a correlation with C-RP. However, cortisol levels can likewise vary even on hourly basis, but, at least, it can be measured at home using saliva tests. Thoughts?
Dr. Younger, would you mind sharing when the results of the PET study are expected to come out? Is it going to happen this year?
We finished collecting those data. I am just wrapping up a grant submission and then will get back to analyses. I have to finish up a magnetic resonance imaging spectroscopic paper first and then the PET data is next up. As soon as I have the patient-control contrasts done, I will present them. I am guessing analyses will be done Dec or Jan. - Jarred Younger
@ thanks for the reply, that would be a wonderful christmas present to our community😁
Thank you for keeping us all updated with your research. 🙏
Maybe this comment belongs on your video about your very long potential treatments list, but I see you're active here rn so will post it here. I wanted to mention that the intervention which helped me the most over the years (not knowing that what I have is likely ME/CFS) is something called Systemic Integration for Adults.
It's basically some very simple techniques for tricking your brain into ignoring a variety of stimuli, thus giving it a bit of a breather = that bit more room for healing. Things like keeping an ice cube in your mouth for a little while, gently sweeping your feet (in opposite directions) over the floor as you sit, and using a backpack instead of a shoulder bag.
You do this if you're in bright and noisy environments, for example. Like at a doctor's appointment when you have to uncover your ears, or in a restaurant if you can go to those. Obviously not suitable for severe ME, but may help other people with mild and moderate cases.
I was taught these techniques by an OT specialized in neurological conditions. They're really intended for specific conditions that don't apply to me, but they significantly increased my functional capacity in just a few weeks.
I have Lupus, Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy, Fibromyalgia, and CFS. My Sed Rate and CRP are monitored every 4-6 months since 2017. These levels have been much higher, and more continually so, since the CFS symptoms started around 2020. For me, the Sed Rate stays higher when my experience of negative symptoms have been more consistently worse (ie feeling sicker most days of the week for several weeks/months). My CRP has more variability, and seems to fluctuate the most when I’m feeling flares starting or stopping (ie new levels/degrees of sickness/disability on top of the chronic background levels going on). It’s like my Sed Rate is measuring the amount of wood burning in a fire and my CRP is measuring how much lighter fluid (increase) or water (decrease) is being applied to the existing fire. I think both are important to track.
I intuitively tested another individual that had lupus. In my findings, it seems that they have multiple pathogens going on at the same time and the body doesn’t know how to operate it’s immune system with each pathogen. The solution for one pathogen maybe conflicting with the solutions needed to fight the other pathogens. To me it kind of describes autoimmune disease. You can maybe try doing testing for pathogens in your body and see what you come up with. Disclosure: I’m not a Doctor
It's a good analogy. Sed rate is definitely the more stable of the two. CRP is designed to kick the inflammatory process into gear. It can rise and fall back to normal in a few hours. So your observations are correct. - Jarred Younger
Astralagus and panax gensing. 3 types MG. Vitamin D with k2. Lions mane, 3 other mushrooms. phosphidityl serine. Coq10. Reservetrol. All help but no cure. Have diagnosis of fms and cfs now for 30 years. Have my own study published in Journal of Musculoskeletal Pain years ago. Keep the study going,wish they did more when i first got this was called fibrositis.
have yourself tested for ochratoxin a
How about mitochondira and supplement like dribose or coq10
The standard American diet is highly inflammatory. I think most people live with level of inflammation that affects their lives but are not aware how it’s affecting their lives. When Covid hit - it hit most strongly the people who already had high levels of inflammation owing to diet and various medical conditions. I read a few studies that suggested that people who normally - because of diet and supplementation, etc. have very low levels of inflammation - experienced the virus very mildly if at all - or being infectious but not symptomatic.
I agree. I think people will be shocked at how inflammatory their diet is once we can get continuous inflammatory monitoring available. I believe people could make better decisions about their diet if they just had accurate data to work with. - Jarred Younger
please also collect vaccination history (dates and number of boosters) for each person to use in analysis. thanks.
were the participants in this study asked to discontinue use of anti-inflammatories before having the blood tests?
if not, why not?
thank you very much for your work.
Good question. They weren't allowed to participate if they had autoimmune/rheumatologic disorders, or taking anti-inflammatories daily. We also screen out for high ESR, ANA, rheumatoid factor, and dozens of other things. But we allow participants to stay on their meds during participation because I don't feel comfortable altering their therapy regimen. - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab Hi Dr. Younger, just wanted to share this information for you to keep in mind for when you screen for rheumatological disorders and do the ANA test. "Based on the analysis in this testing cohort, it seems that none of the three methods included (ANA by IFA, EIA, and MIA) have sufficient sensitivity such that a negative result conclusively excludes a diagnosis of a CTD." pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33626797. I'm someone who has repeatedly negative ANA by IFA but is ANA positive by ELISA, I have positive anti-chromatin and strongly positive anti-histone antibodies, all other extensive blood tests normal including ESR and hsCRP. I suspect there are a lot of people out there like me, they only kept testing me because I have an identical twin with SLE. I eventually received a diagnosis of UCTD, however I do also fulfill SLICC criteria for SLE, I do also have a diagnosis of ME/CFS. I wonder if ME/CFS is a manifestation of neuropsychiatric SLE.
Does the same pattern show up in men with ME/CFS?
So you can have ME/CFS and not have PEM? I thought it was one of the criteria for ME/CFS.
Yes good point. I wanted to do a separate video on that issue, but the quick answer is that some of the participants meet CFS criteria, but not ME/CFS criteria. CFS alone uses the Fukuda/CDC criteria that does not require PEM. I test all the different case definitions. - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab Ah, thanks, I also had this question. I know you stated previously that you use all criteria, but I'd clearly misinterpreted that to mean that all of your participants meet all of the existing definitions. I guess I read that on a foggy brain day 🙃
CRP is too broad - we need commercial tests for individual interleukins. Psoriatic Arthritis has the same problem - often low CRP, low TNF, but raised IL-23/IL17. Another problem is raised CRP is used as a metric to select patients for clinical trials (since they want a number to treat). Subsequently, doctors are biased by those results into thinking CRP has to be high to indicate PsA (while this is only true
I agree with all this. I collect around 50 inflammatory blood-based variables (mostly chemokines/cytokines) in many of my studies. And I see inflammatory conditions that "bypass" most of the conventionally recognized acute and innate immune mechanisms and instead rely on things like leptin and fractalkine. The repertoire approach is what I like, as long as there is someone to properly interpret the findings. - Jarred Younger
My hypothesis as to why the "normal" group is so high, is because they aren't normal. People become adapted to low level chronic pain, to the point where they don't even notice it. Women are also known to have a higher pain tolerance than men, so it might be interesting to compare the CRP of men who identify as not having pain and the women who identify as not having pain. If the pain tolerance is a factor, then (for a sufficiently large and random populations) the men should have lower CRP (because they have a lower pain tolerance, if higher CRP is causing pain, then the men will select out of the control at lower CRP levels)
Hey Dr Younger, thank you. Hope the grant proposal writing is going well (and that tomorrow won't lead to further derogation of science in the US).
Another question if you have time: would a sprained ankle make CRP results completely unreliable? I was going to get some of these tests, but then I sprained an ankle. Read that this definitely does affect such tests, but I'm not sure to what extent. The physio says it'll be in healing mode for a couple of months. Does this mean I have to wait that long for somewhat reliable inflammation testing?
💙🙏
My understanding is that hsCRP is used for risk analysis for cardiovascular disease. It ihas a range of 1-3 indicates an average risk in the population not abnormal ranges (source LabCorp documents).
The UK ME Biobank study of a large number of individuals show that normal CRP test (not hsCRP) average was 2 for ME vs 1 for HC and was statistically significant. But most individuals fell into normal range of CRP (
Looking at the LabCorp hsCRP test documentation and the UK ME biobank paper it sure seems your data and bars are in mg/L and not mg/dL. Can you please check your data.
Hi Dr. Younger. I have been misled. Not by you, by my VA primary care team. I am the individual taking most of the anti-inflammatory supplements that you have or are currently researching. Before I started taking supplements, my CRP level would go above 10. Since early 2020, my CRP has been approximately 3.5. I was told that this is a normal level. In your discussion you put 3.5 in the moderate to severe range. 3.5 is still better than above 10. However, I have been told my level was normal. I am confused.
10 is not normal, 3is normal, 3.5 to 10 is SOME. Inflammation, , interested in what supp given u, we r all on tons, nac, and, quercetin, choles, etc, etc 🙏💞
I gave up on the VA regarding my high CRP (ranges 8-12.5) and low GFR (ranges 58 to 48). It doesn't seem to be important to the VA in terms of monitoring, medication restrictions, and treatment. I see an outside nephrologist and rheumatologist who cares a lot for me. My rheumatologist suspects I have an autoimmune problem but not sure what kind because am I exhibiting classic symptoms of rheumatologically diseases.
Im chronic, between 25-30. I'm on 2 meals/day, hardly any carbs, and it's still so high!
Excellent! 😎❤🤨
From Australia, my CRP which should have been between 2- 3. I was seriously ill with diverticultus with a CRP if 248 I nearly died. 1 year later admitted to hospital with a CRP 75 antibiotics drip 3 days. 3 years later CRP 9. Still very ill with my bowel disease.
Yessur yessur yessur
Dr. Younger,
Why would we expect to see a reduced CRP in the 'healthy' population now?
You've referred to the Pandemic in the past tense repeatedly, but COVID-19 is still a Pandemic. Repeat infections have indicated increased risk of developing Long Covid related symptoms. Wouldn't we be more likely to see an increase in baseline "healthy person CRP" over time as more infections have occurred leading to more post viral cases?
Dr. Younger, please consider this. SARS-CoV-2 is still spreading freely in the community as the vaccines do not prevent forward transmission, and its evolution is significantly outpacing the protection given by the yearly vaccines (which very few people are actually up to date on - 14.8% [14.0-15.6] according to 2024 CDC numbers, contrasted with 28.1% [27.0-29.3] for Influenza). SARS-CoV-2 causes persistent health problems even in "mild" or sub-clinical cases, and even in vaccinated people.
This.
It is a good point. I wish there was a paper showing changes in CRP over the past years in healthy populations. There are so many CRP papers, but none (that I know of) in healthy individuals. My guess would be that peoples' immune systems are getting used to the insults so CRP would drop compared to 2-3 years ago. But it is also possible that the normal level will rise for a long time. I agree that if the normal level of CRP is rising, that is a very important thing to know. - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab There are quite a lot of studies saying that even mild covid infections have long term effects on the immune system. I don't have a medical or scientific background, so I have no idea if that would have effect on inflammatory markers like CRP. Could it have that?
example: www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/severe-covid-19-may-lead-long-term-innate-immune-system-changes
There's much more, for instance about children getting much more easily get a severe Respiratory syncytial virus infection after they got covid. In my layman's mind that would cause higher CRP?
Hi I’m sick for 65 years and never had a raised CRP so wondering why?
I have pain , fatigue and hypothalamic pituitary dysfunction.
Any ideas 13:40
You mention that not everyone in the ME group has PEM and maybe the ones with PEM have the higher CRP values. How do people with ME have a diagnosis of ME without PEM and do you think they should be included in the ME group analysis?
I have ME (and therefore, PEM) but my CRP a few years ago was only 0.2. My ESR taken at the same time, however, was raised for 3 consecutive months then ignored. I also tested mildy positive for dsDNA antiobodies on 3 separate occasions but this was also dismissed because my ANA was normal. Do you think dsDNA antibodies could be relevant in terms of ME?
Yes I will do separate CFS and ME/CFS analyses next because the PEM element is likely a critical sign of the core pathophysiology. These things get done before the final paper is produced. It is an interesting idea about the dsDNA. I haven't run anti-dsDNA tests. I think ultimately a screening of pathologic antibodies will be needed because there are many paths that could lead to the core ME/CFS symptoms. - Jarred Younger
There's an add about Covid vaccination attached to this video.
My ME/CFS doctor don't recommend any vaccination for ME/CFS patients.
I feel this is a good and right advise for me (everyone need to make a decision for themselves)
Could you please highlight ME/CFS and different vaccinations?
I remember that you said you believe ME could be reversed. Is this an “educated wish”? Yes, this is an also a Dead Pool Wolverine reference.
How can we support your work?
Hi I’m sick for 65 years and never had a raised CRP so wondering why?
I have pain , fatigue and hypothalamic pituitary dysfunction.
Any ideas
I'll be talking about this soon. My main research is about inflammation that is in the brain but not expressed much in the body. The aggravated microglia in the brain don't cause an increase of inflammatory markers in the peripheral blood. - Jarred Younger
I'm wondering what is the relationship between CRP and ESR? I have always had normal CRP but ESR is elevated. I understand both are markers for inflammation - do you have info on this please?
There are many confounders. I had an infected tooth and my CRP went particularly high. The Covid vaccination is definitely a factor and the associated systemic inflammation can last for many years. Have you looked into early research using Ketones as a therapeutic aid - that would be a cool study if ketones could restore damaged nerves, regenerate myelin, and lower inflammation
You are definitely right about the many transient provokers of high CRP. The ketone angle is new to me. - Jarred Younger
For some reason my inflammation has gotten worse since I tried the Lifewave Stem cell patches. I had positive results as well but this inflammation thing I have not been able to return to baseline. I have had encephalitis severe and also several bouts of meningitis.
If I do have inflammation issues it must be coming from my brain because my levels are always normal. I thought the pain and fatigue is coming from inflammation in the brain 🤷
Same, it's such a struggle. Only sleep resolves my inflammation and pain, brain must be clearing itself. MRI's, CRP's are all normal.
What do you think of other inflammatory markers like MMP-9?
I have some data on several of the MMP's in fibromyalgia participants. There is quite a bit of work on MMPs in other conditions, but I haven't seen anything on fibromyalgia or ME/CFS. Given that MMPs (probably MMP-9 especially) can "assist" immune cell infiltration through the blood-brain barrier, it is very interesting to me. As we are working with the PET leukocyte brain infiltration study, I should probably start measuring MMPs again as a possible culprit. - Jarred Younger
Time od day blood was drawn..CRP elevates as day goes on...may go down with a nap..then back up
I wonder if CRP would fluctuate through the day?
Yep, it can move over about 3 hours. So it is possible to have maybe 3 high/low cycles in a waking day. I've done hourly CRP tests and it doesn't move much hour-to-hour, but can move significantly over a few hours. - Jarred Younger
I see some blood tests testing for 'high-sensitivity CRP' (hsCRP). Is that test essentially the same as a regular CRP test?
Pretty much, but hs-CRP gives values at the lower end of the scale that CRP can't. I don't remember what the detection cutoff is for CRP, but it is probably around 5.0mg/L. Hs-CRP can measure lower. If both are available, I'd go with the hs-CRP. - Jarred Younger
@@youngerlab whats the cut off from hs crp?
I got a me/cfs , fibromyalgia,ibs diagnosis 3 years now ,i looked up the many blood test i have done and i found crp values 2 times witch is always below 0,3 . Watching your analysis and even though iam male and your data is from female i should start questioning my diagnosis.
I suggest trust your sense of reality and assessment no matter what one individual research study presents. Not questioning Jarred's work, just know this from 4 decades of PVS/ME/CFS/FM, as a male. Different research captures one specific angle on this disease process.
What CRP levels are considered mild inflammation versus severe inflammation. Could you please clarify?
Unless you have a bug going on, above five, you should be really concerned. 3 or below is considered normal.
0.3 is not a level available on the test I take.
I think the tests I get only range as low as
Below 1.0mg/dL would be mild and over 3.0mg/dL would be severe. Just note that 3.0mg/dL = 30mg/L (some countries and labs use /L instead of /dL). Another note - this is severe for chronic values. Acute values (such as with a bacterial infection) can go much, much higher. An emergency room doc would never say 3.0mg/dL is severe, because they are more likely dealing with extreme values involved in sepsis and other life-threatening situations where the values can be in the hundreds. - Jarred Younger
My CRP has only been elevated once when dx'd with a form of myositis but the ESR is rarely normal. Since the ESR is non-specific, doctors tend to dismiss it despite having autoimmune myopathies in addition to Fibro and CFS/ME.
@@youngerlab It could be that. I'm in Canada. Our blood sugar scales are different than the US too.
My friend had CRP of 7 and liver test ccncerns. Keto and berberine normalized all that.
The difference between a good life and a bad life is how well you walk through the fire. - Carl Jung
The fire of inflammation is quenched by high dose linalool. Thank me later LOL
Are these tests hsCRP tests?
Sir I could not see episodes 38 and 39 as they were not available on TH-cam. Can you re telecast them
I can't think of why that might happen. The links are th-cam.com/video/XlILMAUwiiM/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/KDL8f_ZM9GU/w-d-xo.html - Jarred Younger
Sometimes my browser makes it look like a video is unavailable when I first click the link. This usually resolves if I reload the page. Not exactly sure why this happens, but it might be related to ad blockers, VPN, connection speed and things like that.
Test everyone for ochratoxin A. from aspergillus.
Im having issues with my doc, how can someone with severe inflammation show zero inflammation in the biomarkers ?
The main possibility I research is when the inflammation is confined to the brain. It produces similar symptoms to peripheral inflammation, but all the normal clinic tests look normal. Unfortunately, there isn't a clinical tool for detecting brain inflammation, except for severe cases like meningitis. I'm trying to get the tests developed that clinicians can use to diagnose lower-level brain inflammation. - Jarred Younger
@youngerlab thanks for respons. Is the issue also that bloodtesting isent checking intracellular levels of inflammation, only outside the cells wich gives incorrect results?