@@NoahKellman What was playing with Kenny like when he was 16 or so? Well, I was 18 with some, but little more band experience than him. I was still learning the rudiments of guitar and of music, but Kenny had well-passed that point on the piano already and his musical understanding was quite advanced. Still, playing with others is another thing from sitting down at the piano. To some degree, he relied on my experience, as it were, to select material and to arrange the parts. Because he understood the music so well and so instinctively, he always played his parts perfectly and with good feel. Even with all of his technical skill and ability, he never got in the way of a song. If there was a keyboard part that was important, no matter how simple or complex, he was always right there with it. His musical discipline was remarkable for one so young and he spoiled me good regarding musicians I played with later. Few, if any, could match him for how well he made the music sound. He was irreplaceable. Overall, Kenny Werner was a pleasure to play with and a very nice, gentle, and fine person to know. I'm not at all surprised that he did what he did and has become what he has become. Zeus bless him.
@@Glicksman1 sounds like he was paying more attention to the music to them to himself and trying to impress. So much of what he is teaching is about that, imo, focusing more on the music than on ego. Not easy to do, but wonderful when it happens… thanks for sharing this history
After reading one comment and letting myself be in the room with this whole interview, I got watch my breathing while washing the dishes, i got to take a deep exhalation and observe my body start humming and I stopped doing everything when I started listening (to figure out what) and proceeded when I come back into the room with my lungs, steady breathing up a storm… and I get to say this has been a profound Father’s Day afternoon hanging out with you two. That is all. P.s. I think some Eckart Tol videos I have been viewing recently caught the algorithms attention and sent me here. Now I get to notice the bird songs and wind beckoning me outdoors and my thumbs type these comments.
Hey Chris, so glad you enjoyed the video and it was a part of your Father's Day. I'm going to have to check out some Eckart Tol. Any suggestions of where to start?
@@NoahKellman Thank you for asking, Noah. As a result, I scanned my recent viewing history and I felt like this one aligned with the gut brain insights of your interviewee: 20 Minute Meditation: Special Teaching on Being and Doing @Eckhart Tolle
ouuu wait, no pun intended, Noah this was the one i saw and experienced before that one + plus there is a waterfall :-) : Give Up Waiting as a Normal State of Mind: Special Teaching with Eckhart @Eckhart Tolle
This is how I started out being fascinated by music. I didn't care about how I sounded to others, I cared about how the music interacted with me as I interacted with it, just exploring it.
Kenny Werner’s book Effortless Mastery changed my life in music. Looking forward to his second book. It has freed me from my own internal musical insecurities and has helped me accomplish my musical goals. Best book I have ever read. Thank You so much Kenny Werner you are a blessing.
Wow this is going to have a profound effect on my playing. When I write I feel like there are two characters in my mind, one pure engine of creation and a judge that oversees and tries to make an assessment of the quality. I throw away most ideas because I deem them unworthy. I think that’s where writers block comes from, the two minds are out of synk. This will help me ditch the ego and let the process flow
That's awesome, Patrick. We all have an ego that plays a part in how we think- I love Kenny's answer to the composition question. It's so simple yet effective... just stop trying to write something good. Incredible!
@@NoahKellman my experience, i write something, and this just evolves, because you start playing what you wrote, good or bad, and your ears and feeling start telling you where to change, to make it sound better, without the judgement that something was wrong.
thank you so much for interviewing Kenny, I read the first book and by that time I was onboard a ship, trying to improve my playing, all of a sudden, I felt like I had hit a turbo or something, my playing just got better, it was the effortless mastering effect...
Wow this reminds me of that breakthrough moment in acting. Suddenly, nothing in the universe exists but your scene partner, and that lasts for minutes rather than a bare instant. It is awesome. Everyone should try it.
As an old beginner who happened found this conversation in ways to know the basic of playing music, this is so enlightening. Not just for the music itself, but also for other important aspects of life. Thank you so much, sory for my poor english.
very interesting, because i am learning to play the saxophone, and the saxophone is about Breathing, Voicing.... got to put this into my practise.. Thanks for this interview
@@NoahKellman You need to watch it incredible interview and he touches on some stuff that is appliable to life in general as well. th-cam.com/video/QwXAqIaUahI/w-d-xo.html A part that really stuck with me is at 11:30 where he talks about being true with your ability and level and its better to play something simple that you have a strong grasp on instead of approximating a extremely complex thing and getting really confused and having nothing to build on.
This was Great. Some very Deep Truths All over this. Loved every second of it. Well worth the time. It will take a while to digest it all and that great, cause I’ll keep growing. Thanks
love it. I use the feeling of fingers on the keys as the focus shift to engage the "away from your own mind" state. This stuff makes you FEEL better about playing, and that seems to be the biggest motivator.
I’ve always liked watching my hands do something my mind hadn’t pre-conceived while exploring a notion of note progression akin to melody and/or harmony and/or progression of thought while developing an idea which stimulated me to play. Then I can create something worth remembering internally - not just regurgitating after writing something out based primarily on theory. Theory may inform the creativity but must not restrain it by the requirement that it take precedence in the creative process. The artist is the instrument who used various tools like guitar , keyboard, strings, percussion, etc.
28:20 First I'll say I'm a big fan of Ken Werner here. But I can say after transcribing Jerry Garcia, he's accomplished what he said isn't a thing. He does have muscle memory licks, but so many times more than usual he has trained him self to play with novelty, the proofs are in the transcriptions. It's pretty mind blowing.
Effortless Mastery is one of my favourite books, for life advice in general. Crazy thing is, after stumbling on Werner's book in around 2006, not only did most of my fear of playing in front of people go, but so did my fear of speaking in front of a crowd. The advice really helped me to stop taking things so seriously and, although I never performed professionally, it was a big help in terms of getting me to not be too concerned with what thoughts might be in other people's minds while I performed music or speak publicly. One statement that struck me, paraphrasing what he said, was, 'if you stopped playing tomorrow, there would still be millions of musicians left in the world, and your genre of music wouldn't suffer for it, because, your music just doesn't matter that much ultimately; music would go on without you just fine' - that really helped me relax.
So, to paraphrase you, it’s OK to quit, OK to give up, because countless other people haven’t, and what you’re doing doesn’t matter all that much in the overall scheme of things. But why quit when mastery is effortless?
@@man0sticks Actually, I was paraphrasing Kenny. Notice I said that my fear of playing in front of people, AND, of public speaking practically diminished. His point wasn't that you should give up because 'other people haven't given up'; it was that if you wish to stop, just do it, the world of music will be ok, and perhaps you will do better in another field. I fished out his book and here are a few lines: " Did you know that it's not even important that you play another note of music again? In fact, many of you have a greater chance of happiness if you STOP PLAYING RIGHT NOW!...UNLESS.... you change your relationship to playing and your relationship to yourself". Page -- 44 "In the overall scheme of things, your level of proficiency is not important. Remember that you can benefit from realizing this, because if you decide it's not so important, YOU MIGHT PLAY A LOT BETTER! Page - 46 Kenny, is addressing the psychological barriers to mastery here, and the many students who struggle in this area. He obviously goes into much greater detail in his book about his observations as a teacher/student. On a personal anecdotal level, it did wonders for my ability to play.
OMG, I already discovered these, even taught them, but not applied in all of my life. For example I used to say: “don’t listen”! Instead of listening there is percieving. Listening requires effort, perception requires no effort at all. Thanks for this gem. I will expande these ideas to all of my work/life.
@@NoahKellman Constant observation, what works, what not, relentless search for new discoveries, practice, looking for solutions, try everything, use your intuition and imagination, make analisys, difficult to wright it down... :)
I’m very self conscious of the sound while I’m playing. I feel that I play much better when no one’s around, even when I have the window closed. I often imagine others hearing the mistakes, etc. I feel like this is why I have to memorize anything before performing it, because sight reading requires concentration and mistakes will crash my sheet reading even worse than it would a performance .
I feel your pain, but I am getting over it. Sometimes after my warmups, I just bang on the piano and listen to the sound. Kenny's book is great. The key is to never quit, good luck!
Thanks for this, it's essential to life. I have come to believe that the hands are not an extension of the brain, but a brain unto themselves, working in concert with several others in the body, thus the heart. I once heard a well known guitar builder talk of watching his hands do the work in a detached mental state, as if "he" was not involved, his hands knew what to do. Very similar to what Mr. Werner is saying here.
Sure thing, Clifford. I think to me, the hands do the work best when the mind is focused elsewhere. For example, completely focusing on the drummer. I remember trying that exercise and being amazed at how reactive and good I felt about my playing.
Memory is really about the current ability to cooperate. This changes with awareness of relationship with what (who) enables self to be validated. Muscles obey the guidance of memory which resides not in the muscle. Playing music is an extension of the practice of cooperation. Music requires our physical system cooperate.
Absolutely! The enjoyment for me is playing music, not how good I want to sound but it’s a process to get there. When I let go and just flow with what I’m playing it invariably sounds better to most-but when others ask me what I did and when I ask myself that same question, I cannot replicate it because the music came from a different space. Wow, thanks for this Noah! This helps me describe what I’ve experienced in many years of playing music...now I can enjoy it lots more. Peace.
@@powerforward1955 Really happy to hear that! It was really funny hanging with Kenny and picking his brain. So great that you're able to get in "the space" like that.
I've been playing guitar 12 to 16 hours a day for 9 months. I've played of and on since 1984. I discovered about a month ago I wasn't thinking about my body at all when improvising. I was imagining something like a river of blue light flowing and moving and my hands were interpreting the feeling. I remember the exact moment I realized this, it was beyond profound. I forgot where I was and that I was playing guitar. I go there at will now.
That’s amazing, Terry! How did you work on the process of going there? Incredible that you practice so much. How long would you say it took you to get to the point of being able to go there at will?
@@NoahKellman the process just kinda happened. I did intentionally imagine the river of blue light, I was just really... really surprised when I lost myself that first time. When it happened I went right back to it again and again until it was.. well normal. That seems not the right word for it, normal. As for the long hours.. it was the broken heart of a lifetime. I really can't imagine one worse, or more tragic. So here I am
I once had a brilliant director who cashed in on this and could switch you into a zone of complete fearlessness and confidence: she kind of bombarded you at a fast pace, constantly adding more suggestions/instructions- too many instructions to possibly achieve. It was a struggle and an adrenaline rush just be able to try to keep up with each extra instruction, until your logical brain was so bombarded it just switched off. The instructions began very simple; impossible to fail and as the pace became more frenzied they became more abstract and you just didn't have time to worry about how good you were at any of the instructions (eg "be a toothbrush") and you weren't given enough time to reflect on whether you were a good at being a toothbrush; you were already onto the next instruction. It was the most liberatiig feeling I've ever had in my life. She was absolutely genius at enabling people to lose their inhibitions..
This was truly an amazing look at creativity and the removal of insecurity as a musician. This will definitely be a view I rewatch multiple times. Great start to the series.
This is all very difficult to really understand. On the surface, no problem. But there is a very deep and profound meaning to what he is saying that would take years to comprehend, to realize and most of all to incorporate into ourselves. Thank you for this beautiful interview
Really glad to hear that, Chris! Sure thing. Kenny's ideas and methods are fantastic and have the potential to really change one's relationship with their instrument.
Self taught. Don’t know why i play or how to read music. This video make sense to me. It’s like you Leave your body and something takes control. Thanks for this interview
@@NoahKellman It was pretty eye opening. My view of music was already in the midst of changing and his talks guided me through that. I went from a competitive guitar player practicing technique and improvisation to a multi-instrumentalist just enjoying the sounds I can make on each instrument. Improvisation with no wrong answers. I’ve been able to apply that same view to other things in my life and it’s created a judgment-free zone where I’m more willing and free to learn.
This is a great video and a great learning tool for all instruments and for writing and singing. I'm a harmonica player and I play by ear and this will help with improvising on the harmonica to instrumental backing tracks when I try and go to other places up and down on the harmonica. I have to take in what Kenny Werner has said and learn how to apply and adapt that to my playing and when I'm learning to play technical harmonica songs like harmonica player Sugar Blue plays to where I can hear and play back every note the same way Sugar Blue plays it note for note like the recording. I need to improve my improvising on the harmonica so I'm fluent and proficient in the harmonica what I want to do without having to think about it will be a challenge. Music is foreign to me for example when I see the notes to a song or if someone says L7 or the Flatted 5th or some other foreign term you lost me. I can only figure this out by playing by ear. Music has always been a challenge but fun. Thank You! for sharing this video this was very insightful and I will pass this on to other musician friends.
Wow that's really interesting-- us pianists rarely think about how playing certain instruments might mean being highly proficient yet not fully trained in certain areas. Really glad to hear that this knowledge will help you move forward with your harmonica playing. And thanks for the comment, Dana! Nice to meet you, cheers.
@Noah Kellman, Same here Noah, my mentor was first a piano player and then he was a harmonica player. If you first heard him play the harmonica you would have thought he first learn to play the harmonica but he said he was a better piano player than a harmonica player. I am lucky to know him as a friend and a mentor. He was in Frank Zappa's band Ruben And The Jets and then played as a front man in the Johnny Otis Show as a front man from 1982-1994 and played with Big Jay Mcneely and Don & Dewey. He has helped me a lot with my playing and said to think outside the box.
Whoa, this is mind boggling. He's definitely leaning into the law of reversed effort (more you try, worse it gets). I somehow never applied this to music. But now my question is, should I just "suck" at music for the rest of my life? Should I never try to actually sound "good" and just bang the keys and say, "that's my song?"
That's an interesting question. I think there mght be some value for you in playing with a computer program (Cubase etc). That way you can build up your songs with other instruments in layers, and at the end, the part you thought might 'suck' could either become perfect for it's purpose, or you could even remove it and still have your song. Either way I hope you keep playing for the enjoyment of it, and try not to dismiss too much, as it might sound different or mean something different on a different day, and different parts of songs might work better with other parts of other songs, not the song you originally intended it to fit. 🙂
as I see it, by practising just playing anything, for a while, and at the same time listening and feeling with your Heart, your hands will know in time, what to play, and it will sound good, hope this make sence. I myself am learning to play the saxophone, breathing is allready a very important part of playing this instrument
Looking great man! Really interesting video. I will be grabbing these books. I have had a miserable career of “choke under pressure while playing” Yet - there are magical Moments when I realize I am playing (uncharacteristically well ) without thinking. It’s the zone. Watching my hands play without my mind getting In The way. And then the minute I become “aware” it crashes. Yes - I shall be picking up the books. Be well!
@@NoahKellman ah yes! The recorder!! Most frustrating and intimidating thing since my mother in law! If I ever want to instantly forget the last week of practice - I just hit record! 😩
So fantastic and something I definitely plan on trying. Maybe this can be a method pf trying to quiet the distracting thoughts which this suggests may be the reason I at any rate always think the version on video is not as good as the one before. The thought of what others will think of it and even whether the camera is still pointed in the right direction to see the right area is I suppose an even worse distraction. That is what I find anyway.
Kenny's Book is a revelation for any artist. I seemed to magically go up in skill, tone and sound about 30% last night two days into his meditation #1...I've been chasing skill speed metal fusion and western swing type stuff and suddenly I just played and had the best connection to my Guitars and Piano in years. His voice is so soothing and reassuring...the old link to his mediation is missing...,well they are all on TH-cam if you want to hear Kenny Guide You, as opposed to read it and meditate.. ( which is hard... )
Thank you for this one, Noah. I watch most your videos on chords, voicings, etc. This one is a real treat for me, because I need help with the mental/spiritual/psychological aspects of being a musician. Removing the ego in performance so I can just breathe, not just rely on intellect and memory. Thank you, Mr. Werner.
I've learned so much from Kenny's teachings and "Effortless Mastery" book going back over 20 years. What a contribution he's made. Thanks for hosting this interview, Noah.
I read Kenny's book when he first wrote it and I studied with him and attended many of his performances as well. The problem with his "Effortless Mastery Method" is the fact that it will only work for pianists who have already mastered playing piano at a higher level, and who are already experienced improvisers. For students who are still learning how to play piano and Jazz music it will not work, because in order to "let go" you first have to build something to hang on to.
That doesn’t make sense to me. I think learning the fundamentals like touch,relaxing,letting go of judgement etc. are better learned right from the beginning.
i'm merely a self-taught guitar player that can improvise, and play by ear pretty well, but has a very classical type of approach to it all. never even had any classical lessons, but somehow i naturally gravitate toward the basic paradigm of 7-tone scales, although i do mix up things a bit with variations on scales, for all intents and purposes i could be a classical musician, i just don't play actual classical music, but it it unmistakenly within the paradigm of western classical music jazz is a bit illogical to me, so i am very aware i'm kind of tied up then again, i guess what i'm playing is already me, there's no real need to change either, right? ;) this is great stuff in how to untie yourself from your expectations, and i'm going to give myself more of a chance just feeling the instrument and see what happens. i used to do that starting out, but i kind of lost that a bit as i started having expectations of myself indeed. i've been focuing a lot on playing strong rhythm guitar to get my time on point, and fingerstyle to get my technique on point, but i sometimes end up making the same things
You focus on what you're looking at. To look at a blank page is to train yourself to accept the void. Marking on the page is not he goal. Expressing the motivated thought is. Train yourself to respond to motivation. Then record it anyway necessary, whether it's by memory, graphic notation, or by sound recording. This is true is music as well as literary creation.
@@NoahKellman Yes, in the engineering fabrication, add assembly graphical document support roles. Since retiring have done some writing. I started piano @11 and Guitar (by ear) @ 14. I know play with experience professional and semi-professional jazz bands but I bring a blues/rock addition to them and create parts to fit their written arrangements. How and why things work pervades all I do.
So much different from what we're usually told ("play the music you have in your head, don't bother your fingers"). But what if, precisely, you don't have any music in your head at the moment, which occurs often when you're a professional musician and you're supposed to give a good performance at every gig, on command? I'm gonna try what Kenny says...
@@NoahKellman The first time w Citron was in the late 70’s. Kenny sounded like a “Forest Flower “ era Keith Jarrett .. I mean he sounded miles ahead of most of the young pianists in NYC at the time . The second time was when he saw me and Arthur busking near Times Square and Joe Lovano called him and told him to go down there . He ended up doing a gig at Mikell’s with us . It was more of a Coltrane /McCoy vibe and he complained that I was playing too loudly which I’m sure I was , lol . But he was smokin’ up the bandstand as always . He looks great too .. Definitely she’d a lot of weight . I’m getting ready to listen to this now . I dabble on piano .. I really enjoy your videos here, Noah. th-cam.com/video/62FwrX1yTrI/w-d-xo.html
I like this idea of detachmen from hands and mind for better playing, but what happens when you want to put some feeling into your piece? The mind is often involved in that.
When I ask myself is when I listen to those great players (including Kenny) produce the most complex, intricate lines, all so deeply into the changes without the slightest mistake, is then: how do you apply the effortlessness and egolessneness but still being able to play so "correctly"? How can one be so relaxed and play such complex intellectual music?
Do not begin critiquing the quality of your response. After the initial offering the critique allows you to improve the record. The initial quality of response already is. After that your simply improving your offering to repeat that experience for future listeners.
I just happen to come across this video because of the title. I am not a jazz player, but this video is not only a profound video for any player or singer of music, but also of life in general. Amazing video.
Listening labels the process one employs when acquiring and hearing labels the position of receiving. Receive a gift that is offered to honor the exchange rather than snatch to own for the purpose of controlling and serving one's self.
Yeah totally. I actually feel like a lot of my own mindfulness practice, basic as it has been, it's been really helpful in guiding me in the right direction.
Every moment in life is astounding. Each smell, taste, touch, sound, vision, thought and emotion. Flow can free you up.
"The body plays better than the mind making the body play" ... Mind blown.
I swear I should make a book of Kenny Werner quotes from this interview
There are a few really amazing ones in the longer Podcast version
I was in a band with Kenny when he was in high school. He was a genius then. What a nice guy and such a sensitive and brilliant musician.
Wow, so cool! What was it like playing with him back then?
@@NoahKellman What was playing with Kenny like when he was 16 or so? Well, I was 18 with some, but little more band experience than him. I was still learning the rudiments of guitar and of music, but Kenny had well-passed that point on the piano already and his musical understanding was quite advanced. Still, playing with others is another thing from sitting down at the piano.
To some degree, he relied on my experience, as it were, to select material and to arrange the parts. Because he understood the music so well and so instinctively, he always played his parts perfectly and with good feel. Even with all of his technical skill and ability, he never got in the way of a song. If there was a keyboard part that was important, no matter how simple or complex, he was always right there with it. His musical discipline was remarkable for one so young and he spoiled me good regarding musicians I played with later. Few, if any, could match him for how well he made the music sound. He was irreplaceable.
Overall, Kenny Werner was a pleasure to play with and a very nice, gentle, and fine person to know.
I'm not at all surprised that he did what he did and has become what he has become.
Zeus bless him.
@@Glicksman1 sounds like he was paying more attention to the music to them to himself and trying to impress. So much of what he is teaching is about that, imo, focusing more on the music than on ego. Not easy to do, but wonderful when it happens… thanks for sharing this history
@@DanielBarberMusic You're welcome. Yes, Kenny was and is all that. From my perspective, it's the only way to be.
After reading one comment and letting myself be in the room with this whole interview, I got watch my breathing while washing the dishes, i got to take a deep exhalation and observe my body start humming and I stopped doing everything when I started listening (to figure out what) and proceeded when I come back into the room with my lungs, steady breathing up a storm… and I get to say this has been a profound Father’s Day afternoon hanging out with you two. That is all. P.s. I think some Eckart Tol videos I have been viewing recently caught the algorithms attention and sent me here. Now I get to notice the bird songs and wind beckoning me outdoors and my thumbs type these comments.
Hey Chris, so glad you enjoyed the video and it was a part of your Father's Day. I'm going to have to check out some Eckart Tol. Any suggestions of where to start?
@@NoahKellman Thank you for asking, Noah. As a result, I scanned my recent viewing history and I felt like this one aligned with the gut brain insights of your interviewee: 20 Minute Meditation: Special Teaching on Being and Doing @Eckhart Tolle
ouuu wait, no pun intended, Noah this was the one i saw and experienced before that one + plus there is a waterfall :-) : Give Up Waiting as a Normal State of Mind: Special Teaching with Eckhart @Eckhart Tolle
Five minutes in and I'm in tears, this man is spot on!
This is how I started out being fascinated by music. I didn't care about how I sounded to others, I cared about how the music interacted with me as I interacted with it, just exploring it.
Really great stuff. It took me years to allow myself to breathe naturally whilst playing. Thanks for the video!
Sure thing Rick glad you found it helpful!
"Separating the body from the mind, and the mind from the ego." yessss
Kenny Werner’s book Effortless Mastery changed my life in music.
Looking forward to his second book.
It has freed me from my own internal musical insecurities and has helped me accomplish my musical goals.
Best book I have ever read.
Thank You so much Kenny Werner you are a blessing.
Amazing how many life lessons we can learn from our approach to music.
Very true. Our music often is a reflection of our lives, and vice versa. So interesting that our mental processes translate from one to the other.
Yes. I agree completely! I now use music as my guide to spiritually connect/relate to this existence. The path has been exponentially expansive.
appreciate the work you did on organizing the video into chapters and a timeline - very professional.
This is a real gold mine. Thank you!
Wow this is going to have a profound effect on my playing. When I write I feel like there are two characters in my mind, one pure engine of creation and a judge that oversees and tries to make an assessment of the quality. I throw away most ideas because I deem them unworthy. I think that’s where writers block comes from, the two minds are out of synk. This will help me ditch the ego and let the process flow
That's awesome, Patrick. We all have an ego that plays a part in how we think- I love Kenny's answer to the composition question. It's so simple yet effective... just stop trying to write something good. Incredible!
Haha relateable my guy
Indeed. Its good to know Im not alone in that process. That harsh self-judge keeps popping up. Even tho others approve of my current playing.
@@NoahKellman my experience, i write something, and this just evolves, because you start playing what you wrote, good or bad, and your ears and feeling start telling you where to change, to make it sound better, without the judgement that something was wrong.
Happy for you!!! Let us know!
thank you so much for interviewing Kenny, I read the first book and by that time I was onboard a ship, trying to improve my playing, all of a sudden, I felt like I had hit a turbo or something, my playing just got better, it was the effortless mastering effect...
Wow this reminds me of that breakthrough moment in acting. Suddenly, nothing in the universe exists but your scene partner, and that lasts for minutes rather than a bare instant. It is awesome. Everyone should try it.
As an old beginner who happened found this conversation in ways to know the basic of playing music, this is so enlightening. Not just for the music itself, but also for other important aspects of life.
Thank you so much, sory for my poor english.
No problem-- glad you found it. I wish I understood all of this when I was first starting. Keep up the good work and hope your learning goes well!
very interesting, because i am learning to play the saxophone, and the saxophone is about Breathing, Voicing.... got to put this into my practise.. Thanks for this interview
Some of the stuff he says reminds me a lot of the Bill Evans' interview "Universal Mind"
Haven't seen a Bill interview in far too long... will have to watch that!
@@NoahKellman You need to watch it incredible interview and he touches on some stuff that is appliable to life in general as well. th-cam.com/video/QwXAqIaUahI/w-d-xo.html A part that really stuck with me is at 11:30 where he talks about being true with your ability and level and its better to play something simple that you have a strong grasp on instead of approximating a extremely complex thing and getting really confused and having nothing to build on.
This was Great. Some very Deep Truths All over this. Loved every second of it. Well worth the time. It will take a while to digest it all and that great, cause I’ll keep growing. Thanks
Your channels is one of the absolute hidden gems of TH-cam! One of the best I have ever seen! Kudos to your effort and enthusiasm!
Thanks so much, really appreciate that!
love it. I use the feeling of fingers on the keys as the focus shift to engage the "away from your own mind" state.
This stuff makes you FEEL better about playing, and that seems to be the biggest motivator.
I’ve always liked watching my hands do something my mind hadn’t pre-conceived while exploring a notion of note progression akin to melody and/or harmony and/or progression of thought while developing an idea which stimulated me to play. Then I can create something worth remembering internally - not just regurgitating after writing something out based primarily on theory.
Theory may inform the creativity but must not restrain it by the requirement that it take precedence in the creative process. The artist is the instrument who used various tools like guitar , keyboard, strings, percussion, etc.
@14:04 priceless stuff right there
28:20 First I'll say I'm a big fan of Ken Werner here. But I can say after transcribing Jerry Garcia, he's accomplished what he said isn't a thing. He does have muscle memory licks, but so many times more than usual he has trained him self to play with novelty, the proofs are in the transcriptions. It's pretty mind blowing.
Effortless Mastery is one of my favourite books, for life advice in general. Crazy thing is, after stumbling on Werner's book in around 2006, not only did most of my fear of playing in front of people go, but so did my fear of speaking in front of a crowd. The advice really helped me to stop taking things so seriously and, although I never performed professionally, it was a big help in terms of getting me to not be too concerned with what thoughts might be in other people's minds while I performed music or speak publicly.
One statement that struck me, paraphrasing what he said, was, 'if you stopped playing tomorrow, there would still be millions of musicians left in the world, and your genre of music wouldn't suffer for it, because, your music just doesn't matter that much ultimately; music would go on without you just fine' - that really helped me relax.
So, to paraphrase you, it’s OK to quit, OK to give up, because countless other people haven’t, and what you’re doing doesn’t matter all that much in the overall scheme of things. But why quit when mastery is effortless?
@@man0sticks Actually, I was paraphrasing Kenny. Notice I said that my fear of playing in front of people, AND, of public speaking practically diminished. His point wasn't that you should give up because 'other people haven't given up'; it was that if you wish to stop, just do it, the world of music will be ok, and perhaps you will do better in another field.
I fished out his book and here are a few lines:
" Did you know that it's not even important that you play another note of music again? In fact, many of you have a greater chance of happiness if you STOP PLAYING RIGHT NOW!...UNLESS.... you change your relationship to playing and your relationship to yourself". Page -- 44
"In the overall scheme of things, your level of proficiency is not important. Remember that you can benefit from realizing this, because if you decide it's not so important, YOU MIGHT PLAY A LOT BETTER! Page - 46
Kenny, is addressing the psychological barriers to mastery here, and the many students who struggle in this area. He obviously goes into much greater detail in his book about his observations as a teacher/student. On a personal anecdotal level, it did wonders for my ability to play.
felt like only 5 min watching this video. unbelievable stuff. thank you so much.
This is one of the best workshops on improvisation EVER! Thanks Noah!
Sure thing, Chris!!
Mind blowing 🤯 Thanks for sharing 🙏🏾
This is absolutely wonderful
OMG, I already discovered these, even taught them, but not applied in all of my life. For example I used to say: “don’t listen”! Instead of listening there is percieving. Listening requires effort, perception requires no effort at all. Thanks for this gem. I will expande these ideas to all of my work/life.
Awesome, so cool you figured it out on your own. Keep it up! How did you get there mentally would you say?
@@NoahKellman Constant observation, what works, what not, relentless search for new discoveries, practice, looking for solutions, try everything, use your intuition and imagination, make analisys, difficult to wright it down... :)
I’m very self conscious of the sound while I’m playing. I feel that I play much better when no one’s around, even when I have the window closed. I often imagine others hearing the mistakes, etc. I feel like this is why I have to memorize anything before performing it, because sight reading requires concentration and mistakes will crash my sheet reading even worse than it would a performance .
Speak your mind, but through the instrument
I feel your pain, but I am getting over it. Sometimes after my warmups, I just bang on the piano and listen to the sound. Kenny's book is great. The key is to never quit, good luck!
The exercise at 18:40 is priceless. Thanks!
Damn, the one and only Kenny Werner! Thank you, Noah!
Sure thing! Glad you enjoyed it and found it helpful
I have Kenny's book Effortless Mastery and kind of understood the concept. This interview really drives it home!!!! Thank you!!!
Sure thing!!
Great Interview.. Powerful Stuff...Thank You Kenny
He has many wonderful insights to share. Thanks for watching! Btw, podcast (linked in description) has another hour of his knowledge. Cheers!
Thanks for this, it's essential to life. I have come to believe that the hands are not an extension of the brain, but a brain unto themselves, working in concert with several others in the body, thus the heart. I once heard a well known guitar builder talk of watching his hands do the work in a detached mental state, as if "he" was not involved, his hands knew what to do. Very similar to what Mr. Werner is saying here.
Sure thing, Clifford. I think to me, the hands do the work best when the mind is focused elsewhere. For example, completely focusing on the drummer. I remember trying that exercise and being amazed at how reactive and good I felt about my playing.
Amazing! I just bought the book. Thank you Noah for doing this and thanks to Mr Werner too for sharing his wisdom with us . 8)
very nice approach for we play better, but with less suffering... thanks Noah and Kenny Werner for show us this methodology
You're very welcome!
Memory is really about the current ability to cooperate. This changes with awareness of relationship with what (who) enables self to be validated. Muscles obey the guidance of memory which resides not in the muscle. Playing music is an extension of the practice of cooperation. Music requires our physical system cooperate.
"You know who you are? Wherever your hand goes to the next note that's who you are!"
Good to hear about the new book! I have given up trying to sound good. I just want to play
Yeah I really enjoyed reading it. When you give up on sounding good, that's probably when you'll sound best anyway!
Absolutely! The enjoyment for me is playing music, not how good I want to sound but it’s a process to get there. When I let go and just flow with what I’m playing it invariably sounds better to most-but when others ask me what I did and when I ask myself that same question, I cannot replicate it because the music came from a different space. Wow, thanks for this Noah! This helps me describe what I’ve experienced in many years of playing music...now I can enjoy it lots more. Peace.
@@powerforward1955 Really happy to hear that! It was really funny hanging with Kenny and picking his brain. So great that you're able to get in "the space" like that.
I've been playing guitar 12 to 16 hours a day for 9 months. I've played of and on since 1984. I discovered about a month ago I wasn't thinking about my body at all when improvising. I was imagining something like a river of blue light flowing and moving and my hands were interpreting the feeling. I remember the exact moment I realized this, it was beyond profound. I forgot where I was and that I was playing guitar. I go there at will now.
That’s amazing, Terry! How did you work on the process of going there? Incredible that you practice so much. How long would you say it took you to get to the point of being able to go there at will?
@@NoahKellman the process just kinda happened. I did intentionally imagine the river of blue light, I was just really... really surprised when I lost myself that first time. When it happened I went right back to it again and again until it was.. well normal. That seems not the right word for it, normal.
As for the long hours.. it was the broken heart of a lifetime. I really can't imagine one worse, or more tragic. So here I am
making your mistakes sound hot is such an underrated concept
I once had a brilliant director who cashed in on this and could switch you into a zone of complete fearlessness and confidence: she kind of bombarded you at a fast pace, constantly adding more suggestions/instructions- too many instructions to possibly achieve. It was a struggle and an adrenaline rush just be able to try to keep up with each extra instruction, until your logical brain was so bombarded it just switched off.
The instructions began very simple; impossible to fail and as the pace became more frenzied they became more abstract and you just didn't have time to worry about how good you were at any of the instructions (eg "be a toothbrush") and you weren't given enough time to reflect on whether you were a good at being a toothbrush; you were already onto the next instruction. It was the most liberatiig feeling I've ever had in my life. She was absolutely genius at enabling people to lose their inhibitions..
This was truly an amazing look at creativity and the removal of insecurity as a musician. This will definitely be a view I rewatch multiple times. Great start to the series.
Thanks, Jordan! Very happy to hear it was helpful. Cheers!
This is all very difficult to really understand. On the surface, no problem. But there is a very deep and profound meaning to what he is saying that would take years to comprehend, to realize and most of all to incorporate into ourselves. Thank you for this beautiful interview
Really incredible advice I could use in several ways, thanks!
Really glad to hear that, Chris! Sure thing. Kenny's ideas and methods are fantastic and have the potential to really change one's relationship with their instrument.
Self taught. Don’t know why i play or how to read music. This video make sense to me. It’s like you Leave your body and something takes control. Thanks for this interview
Sure thing, Christopher, glad it helps
Thank you, so much. Wonder about this for singing:.
Thank you Noah for a most enlightening interview.
Sure thing, Rick, really glad you enjoyed it.
I absolutely love this type of content Noah. Please do more🙏🏾🙏🏾
Hey Keyon, thanks so much for the comment! I am working on more and will be releasing some very soon
I got to meet him in person in some of his effortless mastery teachings, it was very nice to see a musician view music in this way.
Amazing! What was it like attending his classes?
@@NoahKellman It was pretty eye opening. My view of music was already in the midst of changing and his talks guided me through that. I went from a competitive guitar player practicing technique and improvisation to a multi-instrumentalist just enjoying the sounds I can make on each instrument. Improvisation with no wrong answers. I’ve been able to apply that same view to other things in my life and it’s created a judgment-free zone where I’m more willing and free to learn.
Excellent interview, Noah. Thanks.
As a guitar player I try and apply these mantras. Very educational .Thank you for sharing. 🎼
My pleasure! Thanks for the comment glad you got some helpful info
I discovered Werner at a 2 hour concert with him and Gergoir Maret. He was just amazing, playing from a totally relaxed place... I was fascinated.
Wow awesome. Have you checked out any of his records?
This is a great video and a great learning tool for all instruments and for writing and singing. I'm a harmonica player and I play by ear and this will help with improvising on the harmonica to instrumental backing tracks when I try and go to other places up and down on the harmonica. I have to take in what Kenny Werner has said and learn how to apply and adapt that to my playing and when I'm learning to play technical harmonica songs like harmonica player Sugar Blue plays to where I can hear and play back every note the same way Sugar Blue plays it note for note like the recording. I need to improve my improvising on the harmonica so I'm fluent and proficient in the harmonica what I want to do without having to think about it will be a challenge. Music is foreign to me for example when I see the notes to a song or if someone says L7 or the Flatted 5th or some other foreign term you lost me. I can only figure this out by playing by ear. Music has always been a challenge but fun. Thank You! for sharing this video this was very insightful and I will pass this on to other musician friends.
Wow that's really interesting-- us pianists rarely think about how playing certain instruments might mean being highly proficient yet not fully trained in certain areas. Really glad to hear that this knowledge will help you move forward with your harmonica playing. And thanks for the comment, Dana! Nice to meet you, cheers.
@Noah Kellman, Same here Noah, my mentor was first a piano player and then he was a harmonica player. If you first heard him play the harmonica you would have thought he first learn to play the harmonica but he said he was a better piano player than a harmonica player. I am lucky to know him as a friend and a mentor. He was in Frank Zappa's band Ruben And The Jets and then played as a front man in the Johnny Otis Show as a front man from 1982-1994 and played with Big Jay Mcneely and Don & Dewey. He has helped me a lot with my playing and said to think outside the box.
Whoa, this is mind boggling.
He's definitely leaning into the law of reversed effort (more you try, worse it gets). I somehow never applied this to music. But now my question is, should I just "suck" at music for the rest of my life? Should I never try to actually sound "good" and just bang the keys and say, "that's my song?"
Wu-wei indeed my friend.
That's an interesting question. I think there mght be some value for you in playing with a computer program (Cubase etc). That way you can build up your songs with other instruments in layers, and at the end, the part you thought might 'suck' could either become perfect for it's purpose, or you could even remove it and still have your song. Either way I hope you keep playing for the enjoyment of it, and try not to dismiss too much, as it might sound different or mean something different on a different day, and different parts of songs might work better with other parts of other songs, not the song you originally intended it to fit. 🙂
Accept that you're not good and quit. You will waste your time on something that is not you.
as I see it, by practising just playing anything, for a while, and at the same time listening and feeling with your Heart, your hands will know in time, what to play, and it will sound good, hope this make sence. I myself am learning to play the saxophone, breathing is allready a very important part of playing this instrument
Kenny’s so good for music! 🕉
Looking great man! Really interesting video. I will be grabbing these books. I have had a miserable career of “choke under pressure while playing”
Yet - there are magical
Moments when I realize I am playing (uncharacteristically well ) without thinking. It’s the zone. Watching my hands play without my mind getting In The way. And then the minute I become “aware” it crashes.
Yes - I shall be picking up the books.
Be well!
Right there with you man. My ideas seem to dry up half the time when I turn the recorder on. Gotta make some progress with effortless mastery!
@@NoahKellman ah yes! The recorder!! Most frustrating and intimidating thing since my mother in law! If I ever want to instantly forget the last week of practice - I just hit record! 😩
Music and Buddhist philosophy meet right here like a PB n’ J, deliciously satisfying.
So fantastic and something I definitely plan on trying. Maybe this can be a method pf trying to quiet the distracting thoughts which this suggests may be the reason I at any rate always think the version on video is not as good as the one before. The thought of what others will think of it and even whether the camera is still pointed in the right direction to see the right area is I suppose an even worse distraction. That is what I find anyway.
Kenny's Book is a revelation for any artist.
I seemed to magically go up in skill, tone and sound about 30% last night two days into his meditation #1...I've been chasing skill speed metal fusion and western swing type stuff and suddenly I just played and had the best connection to my Guitars and Piano in years.
His voice is so soothing and reassuring...the old link to his mediation is missing...,well they are all on TH-cam if you want to hear Kenny Guide You, as opposed to read it and meditate..
( which is hard... )
I think the main thing Kenny is teaching is to play with your right-brain.
Thank you for this one, Noah. I watch most your videos on chords, voicings, etc. This one is a real treat for me, because I need help with the mental/spiritual/psychological aspects of being a musician. Removing the ego in performance so I can just breathe, not just rely on intellect and memory. Thank you, Mr. Werner.
Totally hear that. I could use more work on that aspect too. So happy to hear you found this to be particularly useful.
Wow..finding out myself but this confirmed it.
Focus not on the self but the interaction required to maintain viability of self. Breathing is fundamental but don't stop there.
Thank you so much! 🙏🏼 May i ask what is the music that playing in the background in the beginning of your video? Great channel 🔥
Love this, thank you!
11am Friday
What a great DUO NOAH AND LARRY THANKS GUYS GOOD LUCK ❤
I've learned so much from Kenny's teachings and "Effortless Mastery" book going back over 20 years. What a contribution he's made. Thanks for hosting this interview, Noah.
Love the book!
Great interview!! ✨Thank you, Noah! 🎶
You’re welcome!!
Really interesting video, thanks Noah !!
I read Kenny's book when he first wrote it and I studied with him and attended many of his performances as well. The problem with his "Effortless Mastery Method" is the fact that it will only work for pianists who have already mastered playing piano at a higher level, and who are already experienced improvisers. For students who are still learning how to play piano and Jazz music it will not work, because in order to "let go" you first have to build something to hang on to.
That doesn’t make sense to me. I think learning the fundamentals like touch,relaxing,letting go of judgement etc. are better learned right from the beginning.
i'm merely a self-taught guitar player that can improvise, and play by ear pretty well, but has a very classical type of approach to it all.
never even had any classical lessons, but somehow i naturally gravitate toward the basic paradigm of 7-tone scales, although i do mix up things a bit with variations on scales,
for all intents and purposes i could be a classical musician, i just don't play actual classical music, but it it unmistakenly within the paradigm of western classical music
jazz is a bit illogical to me, so i am very aware i'm kind of tied up
then again, i guess what i'm playing is already me, there's no real need to change either, right? ;)
this is great stuff in how to untie yourself from your expectations, and i'm going to give myself more of a chance just feeling the instrument and see what happens.
i used to do that starting out, but i kind of lost that a bit as i started having expectations of myself indeed.
i've been focuing a lot on playing strong rhythm guitar to get my time on point, and fingerstyle to get my technique on point,
but i sometimes end up making the same things
Great thoughts Thanks for sharing !
Thank you Noah for such an inspiring video!
You're welcome!
You focus on what you're looking at. To look at a blank page is to train yourself to accept the void. Marking on the page is not he goal. Expressing the motivated thought is. Train yourself to respond to motivation. Then record it anyway necessary, whether it's by memory, graphic notation, or by sound recording. This is true is music as well as literary creation.
Interestingly put. Have you worked on this outside of music, Paul?
@@NoahKellman Yes, in the engineering fabrication, add assembly graphical document support roles. Since retiring have done some writing. I started piano @11 and Guitar (by ear) @ 14. I know play with experience professional and semi-professional jazz bands but I bring a blues/rock addition to them and create parts to fit their written arrangements. How and why things work pervades all I do.
Well, the typos at least have potential to add some humor as they are still somewhat valid in context. I'll put my "readers" on next time.
So much different from what we're usually told ("play the music you have in your head, don't bother your fingers"). But what if, precisely, you don't have any music in your head at the moment, which occurs often when you're a professional musician and you're supposed to give a good performance at every gig, on command? I'm gonna try what Kenny says...
Amazing. Thank you
This is amazing!
As a drummer I was lucky enough to play a few gigs with him (Mike Citron and Arthur Rhames).
Oh wow, awesome. What was the experience like?
@@NoahKellman The first time w Citron was in the late 70’s. Kenny sounded like a “Forest Flower “ era Keith Jarrett .. I mean he sounded miles ahead of most of the young pianists in NYC at the time . The second time was when he saw me and Arthur busking near Times Square and Joe Lovano called him and told him to go down there . He ended up doing a gig at Mikell’s with us . It was more of a Coltrane /McCoy vibe and he complained that I was playing too loudly which I’m sure I was , lol . But he was smokin’ up the bandstand as always . He looks great too .. Definitely she’d a lot of weight . I’m getting ready to listen to this now . I dabble on piano .. I really enjoy your videos here, Noah.
th-cam.com/video/62FwrX1yTrI/w-d-xo.html
awesome video. thank you❤
You're welcome!
I like this idea of detachmen from hands and mind for better playing, but what happens when you want to put some feeling into your piece? The mind is often involved in that.
This is gold
Do you have a full unedited version of this conversation?
When I ask myself is when I listen to those great players (including Kenny) produce the most complex, intricate lines, all so deeply into the changes without the slightest mistake, is then: how do you apply the effortlessness and egolessneness but still being able to play so "correctly"? How can one be so relaxed and play such complex intellectual music?
Subscribed to learn piano, now I'm enlightened.
hahaha amazing! Speaking with Kenny is definitely an enlightening experience.
Do not begin critiquing the quality of your response. After the initial offering the critique allows you to improve the record. The initial quality of response already is. After that your simply improving your offering to repeat that experience for future listeners.
I just happen to come across this video because of the title. I am not a jazz player, but this video is not only a profound video for any player or singer of music, but also of life in general. Amazing video.
I see how this approach can be applied to improvisation , but can we use it when sight reading , or performing memorised piece? How?
Miles said, "Think of a line, then don't play it..."
Very interesting interview!!
Glad you dug it, Randall!
As a bass player I am kind of referring the harmony and rhythm between the other players in a selfless way.
Listening labels the process one employs when acquiring and hearing labels the position of receiving. Receive a gift that is offered to honor the exchange rather than snatch to own for the purpose of controlling and serving one's self.
Great interview
That’s basic mindfulness applied to music. Interesting.
Yeah totally. I actually feel like a lot of my own mindfulness practice, basic as it has been, it's been really helpful in guiding me in the right direction.
awesome thanks a lot !
Each note both precedes and follows another and its quality both prophesies and is nurtured by them but its existence is not altered.
Nice one Noah!!
I love music with my every fiber what stops me from playing piano is failure of how bad I am