The Meaning of Death: BoJack Horseman vs. The Good Place
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 เม.ย. 2020
- BoJack Horseman and The Good Place both use their final season to make sense of death, and there's a LOT there.
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BoJack Horseman and The Good Place, two of the best comedies in recent years, have now come to an end. The weird thing is, their two endings have a lot in common, in that both grappled extensively with what it means to die. Let's find out more in this Wisecrack Edition: The Meaning of Death: Bojack Horseman vs. The Good Place
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Great .. now a dedicated video on Bojack Horseman's final parts by Jared
Wisecrack that’s too much man
@Jack If you truly believe that death gives life meaning, I can come over and give your life some meaning right now, if you want.
I would much rather live in a world where I can only die accidentally or voluntarily than inevitably. Just because you don't want it, doesn't mean you can apply that to everyone else.
Sooo sweet of you to recommend them! I am a big fan of both channels and it made me so happy to see you guys support each other!
Go watch midnight gospel, this show was made for us
what is this, a crossover episode?!
Gold
Aw hell yea love that reference
Doggy doggy what now?!
You really captured the meaning of the video
Marry me?
Missed a major point with Michael. We don't see him go through the door and Eleanor warns him that the system might not be the same by the time he dies. He says that not being sure what will happen is the most human thing of all. So it's not all just clean answers.
Imagine having such a hard-on for Bojack that you completely ignore Michael in your Good Place analysis
Apparently because something didn't end all depressing and cryptic then it has less meaning and it is less then lol
I do not really hear much hype for the good place... So yea maybe they wanted it to end in a "sitcom" way... But honestly I don't think many people actually want to confront the meaning of death. Or the lack of meaning in life. I think both had important messages regardless on how they were executed.
But I usually judge something by how it makes me feel. Bojack was like meh.... I already knew how that was going to end lol like of course the whole show was about how the world is fucked we are fucked and it's all meaningless. The good place actually bounced around from different philosophical ideas.
I think Bojack horseman gets the points because yea... It definitely gives its ideas in a more fancy way. In a way that isn't really seen even in adult animation. But... It was the same meaning through the whole show. Just with crazy dreams and crazy animation lol
The Reverse if death is what gives meaning to our lives... than the ISLAMIC STATE has successfully infiltrated our society, culture, and very own minds... think about what that means! ... if that is the state of mind, and approach we have to the lives we are living now, than there is no hope for mankind, and for anyone to be starting a family and having kids with the intention on creating a lineage to be passed down, there are only adding to the flame of suffering that will unfold, and also should make you wonder what other thoughts and beliefs and perspectives have been influenced by ISLAM!
@@camerontaylor7471 uhhh what?. the belief that death provides meaning to life accentuates the things we do while we live, it's not this "oh i'll die in x amount of years so what does it matter" morbidity. i view it more of a "well even though we die, it's important to make the most of our time while we exist" - whether that be finding happiness or productivity. Don't really see how Islam can influence and promote nihilism - especially when Muslims believe in an afterlife.
@The Reverse it's a sit com ending. And it fits perfectly, especially if you consider they could have ended it with out protagonists just enjoying the after life together, I think it is very brave for them to end it with most of them ending their journey and not knowing exactly what will be of Michael and Tahani
I don't think that The Good Place wrapped up with comforting answers. It didn't tell us where it all ends, or what happens "after". It made us feel more comfortable with the thought of not knowing. That's tremendous, because I think the thing that worries us most about death isn't death itself, but the idea of not existing in the way we know.
I agree. It flipped the script, and introduced a massive change as well, and the ending while somewhat heartening, was rather bitter sweet and not really massively reassuring.
I think the whole thing was that it offered closure, which is what we would usually expect from a sitcom. You said the thing that worries us about death is not death itself but not existing in the way we know... but that literally is death itself. You simply won't exist, in the same way you didn't exist before you were born. Unless you're saying that the fear of death stems from people being unsure of what they will become after death? I'm pretty sure the idea of becoming anything after death is enticing to people, it's probably why people have built religions around the idea of reincarnation and it's probably part of the reason people still believe in ghosts. People are comfortable with not knowing, it means the possibilities are endless. What people are really uncomfortable with is knowing.
@@WalterWhite-ve3ur I wholeheartedly disagree with that, and your sureness that your existence will end after death shows this. People want to know exactly what will happen, even if it’s utterly depressing. Humans look for patterns and answers and sureness. Everyone; Christian, Atheist, Muslim, etc. want to know that their beliefs are accurate, yet no one can truly know.
@@superjjfire23
Eh, atheists don't necessarily want their beliefs to be accurate. Many wish they could believe in a God or afterlife.
@@richardsantanna5398 Maybe it’s the way i’m wording things, but I think you misunderstood. I’m not saying atheists ~want~ there to be nothing after human dying, I’m saying most people simply want to know what will happen after regardless of the results.
Are you saying BoJack’s take on the troops was wrong? Because, uh, it wasn’t.
It wasn't wrong at all, but he said a controversial thing while being incredibly petty on tv that makes him come off as an even worse asshole
Being right and being an asshole aren't mutually exclusive
@@Colintabulous well said
Plus, Neal McBeal didn't even really have dibs on the muffins so...
Jessy Weeks Fr, putting it in the produce section means nothing 🙄
I feel like you should've also addressed Bojack's last words to Diane in the dream.
Bojack: what do I do now?
Diane: It doesn't matter.
Bojack: Well if it doesn't matter...could I stay on the phone with you at least?
Diane: Okay...
Yes Life and Death are both equally meaningless, but it's because none of that stuff has any inherent meaning to it, that makes how we spend the time we have left significant. If we're all gonna die anyway, why not spend the time we have left with the people we love, doing the things that make us happy?
That is a positive way of looking at it.
But then comes the issue of how being happy is also eventually meaningless. Which is why I honestly think no matter what a person thinks when it comes to this they're right. Whether they're trying to make their own meaning or give up they're all tehcnically right in their own way. It's because we're all gonna die anyway that there is no right or wrong answer. At least that's how I interpret it.
Jared Hall
Also, why spend time making others lives miserable?
Nycto That’s fair. I guess if none of this matters anyway and everyone’s right, I’d rather just try and be happy.
@@jaredhall5169 Yeah. It's up to you. It's a really personal topic 😁
nah that's dumb life is suffering, there is no joy, there is no meaning
I remember seeing both series finales on the same night. Couldn’t sleep that night.
10/10. Not recommended.
RayatoTV I did exactly the same!
I got a panic attack after :(
@@lachicagato what color is the wall in your room, or your ceiling? how do your sheets feel? drink some juice/water, how does it taste? smell some lotion or anything with a nice scent in your room. focus on your senses and it should help take your mind off of the panic.
SAME
@Shinkajo
wow you’re a dick
I don't know man, I just don't think that bojack's ending was that depressed and the good place was so simple.
I mean, bojack ended with the note that you turn yourself around, no matter how hard life is, you do the Holkey pokey dance, and you start again, which doesn't mean it's easy, but you gotta do it every day.
That's not so different from TGP when they say that at the moment when Michael starts living as a human, there's going to be good days and bad days, and that the fact that we don't know what's waiting for us makes for a better life, because that way we will be constantly trying to change ourselves, and that's the beauty of it.
Anyway, they were great endings because it was faithful to the both the show's theme and overall tone.
The fact that one ended on a higher and more positive note doesn't make it for a more inferior one, it was just a different approach, a different way for viewing life.
I was just about to comment the same thing! Just because something is optimistic or happy doesn't mean it isn't as deep or impactful, it just means your taking things in through a different lense.
My theory is thay bojack did die and the last two episodes were about him saying goodbye to those who died in his life and saying goodbye to those who didnt
@@Maizefuture even tho that would contradict the shows messages
You said it all, man! I mean, they ARE totally opposites, they are right on that, but why TGP would be any worse than BH? Like you said, they are just different approaches. And I agree that BH didn't end on a sad note. It literally ends with "sometimes you just keep on livin'". It urges you to keep on livin', no matter what. Damn, there's one season finale in which they said something like "it's hard. But you have to do it everyday. Eventually it will get easier." This helped me fight against my depression, goddammit.
tbh I'm not sure how it's perceived as depressed. maybe people are self-inserting into Bojack too much...because everyone got just what they deserved in the end and I actually found it incredibly optimistic and was one of a few endings where I felt COMPLETELY happy. Actually tbh, the only ending. I was so happy with where everyone ended up. It was just so neat. I think what got me was that it was realistic but almost everyone ended up happy and in far, far, far better places than where they started.
Great timing to talk about death.
Maurício Rodrigues with the whole corona virus thing?
Maurício Rodrigues so yes?
@@sesereddead465 yes... why not?
i would say it is great timing, since many people will have to face the death of family, close friends or even their own
OoF
Between the two shows, I think this is why I’m an optimistic nihilist. Nihilist (Bojack) in that believing there is no grand plan or meaning to anything, but Optimistic (The Good Place) that because of this fact we have the ability to create or ascribe our own meaning to this life, and that’s a beautiful notion to me.
What about Taoism? There is no plan and that's ok. Go ahead and attempt to ascribe meaning, but it will be washed away like footprints in the sand. Meaning is an attempt to control reality. There was never control, or meaning, or the ability to know beyond now.
Carlos Cruz well that’s suggesting that there’s no point in people creating a “meaning” for themselves and each other. However the point the video was making is that even if it is all random and doesn’t make sense, there is objective virtue in having a meaning to life.
@@TheLoserface45 I hear you 100 percent. In the context of the video, you're right.
One stranger to another, do you agree that there is objective virtue to having meaning in life? And what does that mean exactly?
For the record I'm not going out on some "gotcha" hunt. I'd like to know what internet strangers think.
Carlos Cruz 1) I love having real discussions. 2) I think life NEEDS meaning. Bc no matter what someone does, their actions will inevitably affect other people. Putting a meaning to those actions is automatically makes them at least aware of others existence, which itself is virtuous. (Also, I’m not the best at putting word together so it may not make sense hah)
@Justaquitebird I'm of fan of both Bojack and TGP, but I have to admit existentialist nihilist Bojack fanboys kinda of get on my f**king nerves. I'm sorry, but some Bojack fans are overly cynical to the point it's annoying, being cynical isn't the same as being realistic. If Bojack is existentialist in nature than a TGP is meta-ethicist, so obviously the two shows are trying to accomplish different things.
I guess that the good place's format lends to its happier ending, but I think that by writing it off as a sitcom with a dumb sappy ending kinda undercuts everything else the show talks about
SpiffySpaceAce 100% agree. Well put.
but I think is necessary to have positive and negative 'answers' too. Not every person can survive an existencial crisis on Death, so is good to have the option to watch a show about the topic that ends in a happier note.
Because it wasn't a sad and depressing ending then the whole show didn't have meaning? Lol
The Reverse why does philosophy have to be so sad? life has no inherent value sure, but if nothing has inherent value that just means that you get to decide what’s important and which story’s to tell yourself and that’s pretty dope if you ask me.
You can come to terms with you’re own mortality and the meaninglessness of life and end up happy. This is no more irrational than realizing this and ending up feeling anything else.
@@danielgosse2129 The "truth" is different for everyone. And those truths can even evolve over time. That's what I was trying to say. Philosophy doesn't have to be sad...
Saying the good place ended in a "sitcom" way just cheapens the show.
I don't care how many times I watch that snip of herb saying "No... Bojack. There is no other side. This is it," as he gets slimed into the abyss. I always cry a little.
I was literally going to write an article for my tutors magazine about how Bojack horseman and the good place explore the same concepts in different ways. Wisecrack you are a blessing!
Shahab Ahmad yeah the same concepts of the ISLAMIC STATE.... what a coincidence! 🕋👨🏻🎓🎓🇦🇪🌴🗽☪️🌙💵☝🏻🎅🏻🎄🐫
Wow! Sounds good
@@camerontaylor7471 Unless you know Shahab Ahmad in person, that's cheap of you. I expect a Wisecrack fan to be more evolved
cameron taylor yo fuck urself cameron taylor. how about a starbucks macchiato u stereotypical ignorant fuck
I think you're underplaying the nuance in The Good Place's ending. Firstly I'd barely describe it as a sitcom, and more of a comedic adventure. Secondly how is it not subverting usual TV tropes by having 3 of their 4 human characters accept death and just cease to be. If we're talking sappy sitcom endings, it would have ended on the episode where they get into the Good Place and they live hapoily ever after. The Good Place pushed the boundary of what a comedic show could be and incorporated philosophy in a comedic and relatable way. I think you're doing it a disservice by just dismissing it as dumb trashy sitcom, and this is coming from someone who loves both shows.
But in a way isn't the ending for the characters of The Good Place the same as how a show like Friends ended? The ending of the show is a symbolic death for all the characters; no different then what happens to Chidi, Jason and Elenor. I think the good place brought up a lot of interesting questions but botched the ending due to wanting to stick to a formula. Despite all of the philosophical questions, the show has the same message as most other sitcoms: love and friendship always win. Every character's journey is solved through nondescript love and no one ever questions the notion of that.
@@thefloodwatch785 except it isn't
Tahani is more about self acceptance and not relying on other people's view of her
Jason was about learning patience, to not seek attention, to listen as much or more than he talks
Eleanor and chidi are closer to the love theme, but thats mostly a PRODUCT of character resolution chidi was able to start trusting himself to gain control, not elimination, of his anxiety, and to let himself accept his instinct and not overthink his feelings
Eleanor at the end was about learning to LET GO she didn't want it to end she wanted things to go forever, but she had to accept things ended, so she did, and like the others felt peace and became one
They were all in love and were great friends by season 3 start
The tension wasn't the interpersonal relationships nor was the ending, it was about within the self
The good place’s ending was a little clean and easy but the show had a nuanced take on death. To say a happy and resolved ending is less then Bojack’s ending seems a little reductive
I really love both shows a lot and both felt incredibly human
The inevitability of death is not what scares us it is the fact that we cannot choose when it happens
Or how...
That's what I was thinking when watching the section on the good place conclusion, those people had full control over their own fate and got to complete their to do lists
I mean...you could...
Unless....
In fact we can choose, is not a bit less scary. In fact I would say its more.
This reminds me of the last paragraph in The great Gatsby “Gatsby believed in the green ligth, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us.It eluded us then, but that is no matter - tomorrow will run faster, stretch our arms farther...And one fine morning- So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past”
Santiago Molina Interesting you bring up The Great Gatsby in this comment section, because since last year I’ve been comparing Bojack Horseman to The Great Gatsby (even in class discussions, not too many people knew what I was talking about). I don’t have anything else to add, but I thought that your comment was interesting enough to make note of
Yeah, also Nick is pretty Diane-y as well. I guess you could argue that, in a way, Bojack and Gatsby are driven by similar feelings of inadequacy and inferiority to chase their particular goals, embodied by their own objects of desire.
Also, neither of them is content when they finally achieve their goals. On one hand, Gatsby successfully completes his Benjamin Franklinesque quest to become rich and successful in order to be able to own Daisy, who, in his view, is the ultimate representation of success.
While on the other, Bojack also chases his particular green light. Every season he has a certain goal that he believes will make him happy: his book, his movie, his Oscar, his show, rehab, etc. But after a while, he realizes that the elation that he feels is fleeting.
It may appear that Bojack is hyper-aware of this fact while Gatsby is a naive teenager in the body of an adult, but I believe there is a passage in the book that suggests otherwise. It's been a while since I last read it, but I'm referring to the flashback to when he first kisses Daisy. There, he realizes that, in the same moment that he achieved his goal, the magic was gone.
The green light, I believe, represents a shitton of things, and there are many valid interpretations and very interesting analyses about this symbol. However, one that I like is closely related to the passage that you have quoted. It reminds us of the things that we lacked in our past, of our feelings of inadequacy and inferiority, while also serving as a beacon for the future, to try again, and to repeat the same mistakes all over if need be.
Deep down, Gatsby knew that Daisy wouldn't make him happy, but he was driven to her anyway. The same goes for Bojack and his book, movie, etc. Yet they beat on.
Or, you know, whatever you wanna make of it. I just saw your comment and I love both Bojack and Gatsby and also comparing things that I like so I decided to write this haha. Cheers.
can we all take a moment to appreciate the fact that Lisa Kudrow guest-starred on both shows?
Maybe she needs more friends 😏
who did she play on Bojack Horseman?
I think his ex who has the child (foal?!)
@@radenmohamadadrianramadhan792 I'm p sure she played Wanda, the owl BoJack dated for a bit
@@radenmohamadadrianramadhan792 wanda , she dated bojack in season 2
2 problems.
1 the bojack ending wasn't really all that dark, or even open ended. I think the last season was about the growth of everyone around bojack more than just bojack himself. The separation from him and the need to heal themselves. I think bojack himself needed everyone to leave him behind, and prison was the only way they would, or in the words of another great philosophical cartoon "some niggas just need to go to jail"
2. The idea that the good place ending was in some way less smart because it was positive is kind of cynical. Yeah not everyone is eleanor but not everyone is bojack either. The idea of ending an eternity of joy and leaving behind everyone you know and knew because you found your own inner peace sounds more like eastern philosophy and I think through that lens the true depth of the last season can be found. Especially because the end result and the way the system ended being run was reincarnation.
The main characters reaching nirvana was the best conceivable ending.
Great video tho
Thank you! I completely agree. Bojack and The Good Place are two of my favorite shows now, and to me, both had profound endings that had me thinking for a long time. To say The Good Place is just feel-good junk food because it doesn't end in desperation and sadness sounds like an edgy teenager thinking that it's cool to be depressed.
Bojacks ending wasnt dark? Did you take a poop during the 2nd to last episode dude cus thats one heck of a bad take
And painting death as positive is pretty hack writing
Its just a contrivance to sweep away any deep personal conundrums and emotional turmoil to just end the show.
But it suits a sitcom i guess
And by "suit" i mean it sounds just as disposable as any other sitcom ending
Never watched the good place so im admittedly not worth arguing with on that stance though
@@vVAstrAVv what was dark about it? Bojack was doing the same shit as always when he made it to Wesleyan. Hollyhock noticed him hitting on the girl at her games. Then, he shits on his chance to get himself out of his newest pr disaster, gets fucked up, and ends up in jail. That's not dark its karmic, meanwhile every other character is freed from the cycle and that's where the real light of the ending is. Princess caroline, Todd, diane, and everyone else is spared from the continuous melancholy and able to live their lives.
Also I don't know how to tell you this but life isn't all misery and thinking it is just makes you miserable.
Overall comparing these 2 is comparing eastern and western philosophy. And that's my point. Neither is wrong and neither is deeper than the other.
@@zeXr0andNeGi the fucking poem about suicide. Sarah lynns whole song. All of that dream ep mainly wasn't really saying the whole season is dark but its handling of death is clearly dark and handled well.
Wanting a little nuance in a show about death =/= life is pain. But ok
@@vVAstrAVv Your connotation of death is making it hard for you to see what I mean. Don't stop dancing (Sarah Lynn's song) was played repeatedly in the series, and I think so was the view from halfway down. Just because they were mentioned in bojack's near death delusion doesn't make it dark. And having death be "doomy gloomy the end" is the least nuanced take of all time. Death is a beginning in many non-eurocentric cultures and to have a story end with one of those without it being hackneyed and not well thought out takes amazing storytelling ability. Again, you're comparing Lao tzu to Nietzsche and it doesn't work. Bojack's ending worked for bojack because it's the same cycle but we as an audience are finally done rooting for him, just like everyone else in his life, and whether or not he changes isn't our problem. The good place ending works (regardless of whether you're a fan of sitcoms) because the characters were able to not need the validation of self. They surrendered the idea that they needed approval of who they were and allowed themselves to just be. Contrary to what the video said there was a lot of musing about losing who you were in this final end, fearing loss of love, not being remembered, and loss of self, very common things that are mentioned in philosophy. It wasn't a happy ending because everyone was happy at the end, it was a happy ending because everyone was free from the very construct of both observing and being
Man, I was not emotionally prepared for the last episode of The Good Place when I watched it. When you think about the pretty simple premise with which the show originally started, and all the twists and turns it went through, to end up in that spot.... Truly amazing.
What is this a crossover episode💖💖💖
thank u
Perfect
This episode should be called "Our Opinion on the meaning of death" cause holy shit that was biased af
I feel like you were too harsh on The Good Place in the last quarter. Just because a show offers an answer to a big philosophical question does not mean it is pandering to the audience. Sure, nihilism claims that that anyone offering answers is pandering to their audience, but that is one school of though out of hundreds. You entire argument for why The Good Place is pandering is basically to point out that it is a sitcom, and then assert that all sitcoms pander. You are literally taking an entire genera and writing it off as inherently worthless.
Rewatch the last part of the video and notice how little you actual talk about the content of The Good Place when criticizing it. Sure, you talk about the creators and the genera, but you never say that much about what actually happens in the show itself. If a show is pandering to the audience, then you should give me example in the show where that happens. You even start the segment with the loaded question, "[W]hy did The Good Place end on **simple** answers, and why did BoJack end with open questions?" You never defend your claim that The Good Place is giving "simple answers", you just assume it is true and move on.
Worse, you blatently twist Dan Harmon's argument suit your own needs. He claims that producers profit from complacent and lazy viewers, so they choose to air shows that inspire that attitude. This line of reasoning applies equally well to comedies hosted by television networks as to dramas hosted by streaming services. Yet you ignore this and only apply the quote to The Good Place, offering no explanation for why the same pressure to make uncomplicated shows was not faced by the creators of BoJack. Also, notice that he was talking about a trend. He was not claiming that it is impossible for T.V. shows to be deep, only that a pressure is faced by people working in the industry to make their shows shallow. You completely misrepresent this nuanced argument in order to make a blunt hammer, which you needed to smash The Good Place into the 2-D, meaningless shell you wanted it to be so BoJack would look better in comparison.
Next time you want to talk about how someone's background as a play-write influenced their show, just do it. There is no need throw a different show under the bus first.
YES! This is so well put. Both of these shows are good based on their own merit, if you need to bash another show in order to praise BoJack then you imply that BoJack cannot stand on its own and is only good in context, which is obviously not true. And just because The Good Place had a brighter ending does not mean that the entire show was worthless, which again, is clear.
Yeah it definitely seemed like they were giving a handy to Raphael Bob-waksberg by saying that. I think they should have delved into why the Good Place challenges the audience instead of giving them simple answers. There are actually a number of people (mainly Christians) that hate the ending of the good place
Also acted as if the things happening in the show aren't actual ideas discussed by actual philosophers today.
Also acted as if watching something to feel better is inherently a bad thing. I mean, I recently started watching Bojack Horseman and I cannot watch more than one episode because it's bad for my mental health. But not wanting to suffer to reach deeper meaning or whatever makes me dumb, I guess.
@@beethovenjunkie yeah exactly. I enjoy both shows for entirely separate reasons. Bojack is a great deconstruction of how comedies and other such TV shows play with our perception of situations as well as taking very serious topics such as death and depression and looking at them without all the TV glitz and glam. And i love the good place because of how it portrays absurdism in such a positive light
I don't think he was bashing the good place at all, just explaining the differences in their endings. they're huge fans of both
14:26 - 14:37 "Sure, there's no grand purpose to our existence but that doesn't mean we can't attempt to create one for ourselves. And the artist who distills their vision of the world onto a canvas or stage is perhaps the most free of all."
new favourite quote :)
Imagine being trapped by the feeling you can never be free. Imposing your will on the canvas is just another form of slavery.
@@darcflame37 what, how is that slavery?? I think the ability for a conscious agent to self-express some "inner truth" in a NEW, creative & objective way is what fundamentally defines the afromentioned artist's freedom.
Whether the creation itself is labeled a "novelty" depends entirely on the particular beholder, but claiming the motivations are slave-like is so unnecessarily demeaning.
What freedom existed after the creative work that didn't exist before it? The freedom of expression is the answer, a fleeting release of endorphins. A band-aid that resolves symptoms temporarily. A cell that keeps you in.
And more importantly, a cell that keeps you coming back.
I still believe this notion that death gives meaning to life is just another reassuring illusion, nothing but sour grapes. "Oh, yeah, we're inevitably mortal, but we wouldn't like to live forever anyway". How could we know for sure? There's no point of comparison. It's not like we could have a control group... "Let's interview 500.000 mortal people, then 500.000 immortal people, and see which group is happier". The desire for purpose is a human construct, ok, life has no "inherent" meaning, fine, that IS potentially despairing, sure, but there's nothing we can do about it but try to find ways to cope. We may only decide what is meaningful to us, in our microcosms, even though there is no definite, objective answer, given by mortality or otherwise, and that’s it. Most of the time, we're lying to ourselves when we say we're seeking meaning; in fact, maybe we know dawn well that we’re just seeking comfort in face of an obviously meaningless universe, and the concept of death as the point of life is just another safety blanket, as valid (and imaginary) as any other.
Your comment reminds of CPG Grey's video about immortality. Much of it dedicated to how we have developed Stockholm syndrome towards death
Id think life is plenty of points of comparison
Im 28 and already sick enough of this world to be fucking glad ill probably die at 50ish lol
Trying to dismiss that just sounds immature on your part
Yeah, put it in the same basket as: "Money can't buy happiness" - Some Rich Guy. Seen plenty of rags to riches people who are happier and even the sadder ones are glad they're sad and rich rather than sad and poor. Never seen a case of riches to ruin that wasn't tragic and full of regret.
We just don't know how immortality or eternal bliss would be experienced and The Good Place made a blunder funnelling itself into a cul-de-sac. I'm more convinced it should have ended with season 2, which would be perfect.
@@MasonDixonAutistic see the problem with your argument is. Living forever and living with death are both still living. You take the right timeframes of the mortals life and compare and they will be the SAME. Rich or poor is litterally having or not having a disparity of resources.
Youre basically trying to measure miles in gallons. Not the same thing
@@vVAstrAVv No, living forever and living with death are not the same thing and I think it was the inability of the writers of TGP to understand that which made them go with Eleanor proposing the exit door solution. In that setting, everyone experiences life as finite but only find out about the afterlife when they get there. They know what it is like to live with death ahead of them, then they have to absorb the paradigm shift of living without end. The show unfortunately leaves this until the final episodes to explore, then fails to explore it at all and instead goes with assumptions. Not a single character challenges the proposal; the closest we get to it is Tahani choosing to find another distraction. What does she do once she becomes the perfect afterlife architect though? All she is doing is looking for distractions, and from what? The exit door, which is death.
If the writers had explored immortality more, they would have had to use the time to describe how exactly someone gets from being Hypatia of Alexandria to 'Patty the glassy-eyed mush-person'. Instead it's just assumed and we have to suspend disbelief, which they had to do because exploring reasons why anyone would be philosophically opposed to the exit door would have been kind of a bummer for them.
4:01 a real Bojack-style tongue twister
I was really surprised that you talked down on the good place. To call it disingenuous I think reflects your philosophical disagreement with the show than it does about its genuineness. I thought both were great shows for different reasons. It seems like you disliked the show simply because it was optimistic and provided "answers" while Bojack was more up to interpretation. But clearly the Good Place is just a fiction, and they point to how ridiculous humanity is and what the afterlife could be, but it doesn't seem to be laying it down as fact. Hopefully you're not as pessimistic as it makes you seem. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. Also optimistic nihilism ftw
I thought Bojack was honestly tiring... It was the same thing over and over again... When I knew the ending like 2 seasons ago lol
I knew it was going to end without any answers... I just wish it had ended when I sorta liked Bojack instead of just feeling meh about him. I am glad he was held accountable for everything.
Bojack needed Chidi lol
At the end of Bojack... I was like OK... Thanks I knew how this was going to end a few seasons ago lol
I knew that this show was trying to say that life doesn't really have meaning and it sucks sometimes.
At least with The Good Place they actually went through different philosophical ideas... I did not guess how The Good Place would end. I don't understand why the idea that people can die happy is somehow less meaningful.
For talking about the philosophy about how nothing really matters... How is it that because The Good Places ended "happy" then it means less then Bojacks ending... Nothing matters giving something meaning shouldn't make that any less meaningless... Lol
Ong both entertained me to hell I loved both and I was happy all throughout and sometimes sad or disgusted from bojack which is nice both were tip tier shows
fantastic timing, I’ve been thinking about bojack all day
Same here!
Fantastic timing. I've been thinking about DEATH all day
Bojack ForcePun
Zach Braff was the waiter in Bojack's dinner with the dead because Zach Braff died in the show.
Killed and eaten by his fellow celebrities in Underground
Jaime Nyx he died feeding people and he fed people in the afterlife
@@mydoghatesyou5098 I have no idea whether that was intentional on their part, but holy crap that's dementedly brilliant.
Jaime Nyx Normally I would say coincidence, but the writers of Bojack Horseman clearly like subtle details like that, so I think it was intentional. The writers are so brilliant.
I've been waiting SO LONG for Jared to cover the ending of Bojack
“Everything must have an end”. One piece: Pathetic!!!
Fox: We want another 20 seasons of the Simpsons.
Naruto: laughs in Boruto
There is something to be about there not being any 'ultimate realities'. There is something to be said about not arriving at final changes in any reality.
Laughs in Pokémon
Given that all the characters died, how does The Good Place provide a sitcom ending? Seems to me like they put their money where their philosophical mouth is: Death gives life meaning.
Great video by the way.
Sitcom ending would be: here is the answer (existance and choice of death in the Good Place)
Not sitcom ending: open questions, nothing is certain, just leave some hope that it was all for something (BoJack having gone through everything and still no certainty if or when he'll relapse back into to the same old paths)
@@tompson3 So 90% of the media is a sit-com? -.-
I believe life and death have meaning, but I also acknowledge that there are alot of unknowns and that human psychology tries to fill up those holes because the unknown is in and of itself, terrifying
Its more that the assumption of the unknown is whats terrifying
Were left seeing death as some dark abyss because at some point in life most people fail to properly imagine nothingness.
But deaths....just nothing.
Just like before we were born.
Thousands of years passed before we first opened our eyes.
So proper non existence will feel the same
Like closing your eyes and counting to one
Which is pretty cool to me
I just started watching both of these shows a few years ago and they've quickly risen up the ranks of my favorite shows, with Bojack actually becoming my new favorite show. As summarized by this video, they both helped me process death in different ways and I'm grateful to have experienced both of these incredible stories
There was a pretty disturbing ad at the end of the video implicating the Nazis had developed clean energy but the knowledge would have been "suppressed". I don't know if you have any power over the ads, but if you do, please do something against conspiracy-theorists like gaia/deepspace.
TH-camrs don’t have control over the ads, except for the stuff they directly sponsor in their videos.
Fuckin neo nazis are trying to spread propaganda
Whats the ad called. I have all ads disabled so I am kinda interested lol
Okay but what if they did create a form of clean energy?...
Not many people hate the American confederates or Europeans who imperialized and enslaved/murdered nations of people.
@@user-jp4cj3ds7p Many people hate Americans or Europeans for their imperialist past, but even if that would not be the case, there is no way to apologies for the Nazis, if you wanted to go in such a direction.
But I have no idea where you are going. Knowlegde of the Nazis was used by everyone of the Alliance (for example Operation Overcast or Operation Matchbox), I would guess that the Soviet Union would have had great use for clean energy since they had to industrialize agricultural states. So I would think of clean energy without anyone using it as quite unlikely, but if knowledge was lost or "suppressed" and there is evidence for it, I am interested to read a book with sources about it. And if there is no evidence for it - why do you have to mythologize the Nazis?
My two favorite analysis channels collaborating on videos about two of my favorite TV shows ever. You guys made my day!
Both of these shows are forking masterpieces. The kind of stories Hollywoo wishes it could make.
Not having answers is much better than the suicidal depressing answers of the good place.
I really hope this channel does something to argue against nihilism and existentialism cause it seems to be the position they take automatically.
I don't even see it as taking nihilism fully
It is depressive nihilism
Nothing matters so why try, being positive is lying to yourself...but with no meaning lying doesn't exist you can't say untruthful meaning about something that isn't meaning
I just see it as pandering to the early sad nihilists refusing to see the good in things that are happy with what they are, and love things that draw attention to the idea that they're doing more and evolving...while actually doing very little exploration on a deeper sense
Against existentialism? That is the only position one can take- There is no intrinsic meaning to life, so we can make our own meaning as said by (Sartre [make your own purpose], [Camus [image Sisyphus happy], Neitzche [Become the best possible version of yourself]. Existentialism is not negative and is the only mature thing one can accept.
Nihilism is negative though, well kinda- . There is no meaning & you cant make any. Nothing matters, so dont try
Notice the difference between the (generalization) of the two? One is making your own meaning and the other is accepting there being no meaning.
I've enjoyed both you guys and the Take for awhile. Glad you all are supporting each other.
The Take and Wisecrack are two my favourite minds on the internet. I love that they keep referencing each other's work.
I love a lot of points in this video, but the point about TV shouldn’t leave you in a crisis doesn’t quite mesh with the idea of how sitcoms & TV work.
The point of a story is to take you along w/ it. To provide a message or a takeaway. Stories hinge on conflict. When you’re in crisis you have to eventually get to the point where you resolve or work through it. So I don’t see an issue in a show having a neat resolution, so long as it has an actual meaningful message that has some ring of truth in the journey of the story. A good show should be able to put you in crisis in the episode & provide you w/ tools to derive meaning. I do feel a lot of sitcoms are overly simplistic in their endings to the point of being derivative. Though I feel like the good place grapples better w/ existential ideas of eternity, Bojack does push us to make most of time we have, and it’s more applicable as death can come from anywhere. Not everyone gets to go out on their own choice in this plane of existence. Maybe the good place could have gone darker like Bojack... I’m not quite sure, just like everyone else
This is THE video I’ve been waiting for since January 31st! Thank you guys! Greetings from Brazil!
Two of the most legit and skilled channels doing a team up! Love the analyses from you guys.
Love that you guys did a collab with the take. Awesome channel
My favorite moment from The Good Place is the Season 2 finale. Eleanor puts genuine effort into being a good person all on her own yet gets discouraged when nothing gets better. It's not until she gets a friendly suggestion from Michael that Eleanor realizes that she can't do it alone works up the nerve to finally ask for help.
A few more weeks of this quarantine and Jared would be bagged by the Tiger King people
Sumit Shetty underrated comment
@@dipannitasarah5521 haha thanks 😂
Awesome collab, The Take and Wisecrack are my 2 favorite Tv/film analysis channels
This is what I needed to start working on my B.A seminary paper in my "meaning of life" course.
Thanks, wisecrack!
Is it, terrifying?
"No i dont think so. It's just the way it is, ya know? Everything must come to an end, the drip fianlly stops."
Ur grammer sucks ass
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do." TV's Angel
I am truly glad you made this.
why do you write off the good place's positive ending, and yes parks and recs happy ending, as just because its hollywood? How about looking at the very intentional use of idealism INFORMED by past cycles of oppression and general existentialism? I can see a whole argument of how the Good Place is a very intentional example and reiteration of metamodernist TV, of a very cyborg earnestness present in parks and rec but only now getting that echo.
Jeez, you're so smart with those giant words. Even though everything you say is untimely meaningless.
Shinkajo i don’t think they’re using big words to impress you lol, some people just have big vocabularies. they’re saying that because people have experienced bad times and “oppression and general existentialism” before, it’s nice, and even necessary to have this place of idealism to go to, and that the good place is an example of this mash of existentialism and sitcom idealism that shur has been working with since parks and rec. just because you don’t understand how someone’s argument is phrased doesn’t mean you can write it off as “[ultimately] meaningless”.
@@carlysimpson9518 Well no since I have a big vocabulary, I know those words too. But I also know that using them in such a fashion comes across as douchy. It's like who do you think you are? The Architect from the Matrix?
Dear Jared, you and your team's content gives me an incredible faith in humanity especially during this terrible and testing time. I truly am grateful for your work through all these years. Thank you!
While The Good Place does have a relatively clean and feel good ending, I think there's more to it than that. It definitely lends itself to the sitcom happy ending, concluding character arcs in a satisfying way. I personally believe that that doesn't make the show more any more shallow. It still explores what it means to be a good person and leaves us to ponder the answer. The closest thing we get to answer to what makes one good is the vague idea that we should try our best to be good.
Bojack Horseman is relatively deeper in exploring its philosophies and is not limited by the sitcom format. BH constantly finds itself changing formats now and then like the Free Churro episode in contrast with the episode where Bojack is underwater. One contributor why BH has multiple chances to break through this format is due to what you said in the video. BH is a Netflix show. It doesn't have the TV limitations that the good place has and feels less "sitcom-like" than TGP.
I believe that TGP still has a pretty good exploration of morality through wack sitcom situation. Though it may be limited by being a TV show and a sitcom, it finds a host of ways to use the genre to its advantage to have the characters find closure. It may not be as deep as BH, but I'd say it's not as shallow as the video implies it to be.
BH, on the other hand, I think had a bit more creative freedom. It is not only a comedy and sitcom deconstruction, but it is also a satire. This allows for the show to be more philosophical and meta than TGP coupled with the freedom of the animation medium to use a variety of techniques that are difficult in live television. Not to mention that the show was meant to deconstruct a sitcom.
I like to think that the Good Place's message involves being "readied" for whatever comes next. Like a baby in the womb we have no idea what the next phase is going to be like and it's the fear of the unknown that drives us. The plan could have been for the system to be set up the way it was so people who were ready would get to walk through the gate at the end. Maybe the real world and then afterlife is like that as well. Hard to say. One thing I believe is that it'll be incomprehensible to what we know now. Whether any kind of faith plays into that is up to you.
"Wouldn't it be funny if this night was the last time we ever talked to each other?"
Imagine all the people watching in the future and just can't understand the toilet paper reference
Oh my god thank you I almost cried when I saw this in my recommended I just finished the season finale of bojack and recently finished the good place too( I know I was behind ) and both of them meant so so much to me and taught me so many new perspectives and changed how I thought about life and death so I am so glad someone saw the similarities and connected them
I've been waiting all year for this. Thanks to you all!!! Go Wisecrack Team.
Oh, God. I thought all the seasons of The Good Place were on Netflix, so I watched the three seasons. There's a fourth season. I thought S3: E12 was the end. I shouldn't have been here....Michael, erase my memory of what I saw here
I love how Pheobe from FRIENDS is talked about very much in the good place, then the actor of her shows up!
Ironic isn't it?
Great vid man. This is easily one of the more important channels on youtube, not only for the content you bring but the comments on these vids too. While I'm going along my journey reading them and simultaneously thinking about what I think I find more answers than if I'd just do one or the other on their own.
I love how the Good Place finale aired the night before the Bojack last season. It was nice watching both back to back, especially with the door thing
THE best dream sequence ever in any media!
As another comment said your video, while great, tries to give The Good Place a cleaner cut than it actually has. Sure, the sitcom format requiers certain outcomes and it is built to be opium for the masses, but The Good Place a bit more than that. First of all it has a narrative reason thar gives meaning to it's definite endings: immortality. Since, as you said, it stripes humanity of morality and ethics it requiers a new type of ethics and morality. The characters of TGP can have closure because they have live hundreds of thousands of lifetimes, while we, and Bojack, have only one. Then again, infinte time dosen't mean we would get a defenitive happy and, but at least it would grant us the possibility to try any outcome and to take the plug into the blessed non-existance knowing that we lived out the possibilties if our conciousness. There would still be no ontological meaning, but for that of what we made.
Second Michael becoming human means that he is being thrown into existance, even with more help than us when we are born, meaning he will live as us.
This wisecrack episode was really good
this is the video I've been waiting for
The problem with the whole "death gives life meaning" argument, is that it's not actually "death" that gives life meaning, it's the fear of death, and once that fear has done that, there's absolutely no reason to follow through with dying.
Like, even if the thought that you will one day die has given meaning to every single thing in your life, at the end of the day, at any given moment, you would always choose to live rather than die. You wouldn't kill yourself just to satisfy your younger self's belief that your death will give them meaning, that doesn't make any sense. Those experiences are over, you not dying isn't going to retroactively change them.
That isn't the point. Death gives life meaning because it makes life limited and acts as the ending to your story. And while yes you could argue that the fear of death is what makes gives life meaning it's probably more cool to think that death itself does. Death does give life meaning.
@@bigbig173 But the end of your story will only be meaningful to others, not yourself. It can't be meaningful to you, because you're no longer alive to experience or reflect on it.
Something can only be meaningful to you as long as you can at least think about it, if you're dead, then nothing can have meaning to you. I'm not gonna die just so that other people will have a cool story to tell.
@@dreye3215 It doesn't have to be meaningful to you. It just has to be meaningful.
I don't agree with this one. And I'm always fanboying Wisecrack, but I can't help but feel the influence this pandemic and its effects it has over us socially and individually. I feel that and other personal factors steered this video.
Life's has bitchy moments. Same as it has good ones. Choose how you want to see it. You ain't wrong.
There is no meaning to our existence but we're here. We came from happenstance. How fucking cool is that?!
wow I love y'all and the take! what a collab!
I binged all of Bojack Horseman after watching this video the first time just to get it. Thank you.
3:18
Read that book.
On the beach.
The perfect beach read...
Death by Todd May? If so that's at 3:40
There's a typo, he actually meant 19:18
Jared: how can I talk about existential dread during a pandemic? I know… I’ll reach into the sitcom bin.
My two favorite channels collaborating on a video on two of my favorite shows? Damn, it's a good day.
Fascinating indeed, I love this kind of analysis
Man, I'm feeling a bit depressed lately.
*watches an episode of Wisecrack*
Oh hey! IT GETS WORSE!
Oh good I just finished season 4 of the good place just yesterday .....
props to both shows for trying to get people to at least think about such things which we should all do at some point the reason people are going crazy at home is because most don't stop to think about such things even though they should maybe not all the time but occasionally constantly distracting yourself is not a life but learning to manage your thoughts at least gets you closer to having something that resembles what life should be
Well written piece wisecrack team! 🏆 it is obvious when the team is working on a material they really like (good place, matrix, rick). The output is golden! As opposed to when they’re doing covering something because it is the latest craze. Keep safe jared and team
No one:
Jared: Bob Woksberg
Loved the episode wisecrack👊😀🤔
The ending of Good Place and Bojack reminded me of this anime I watched as a kid:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haibane_Renmei
Would love to see your take on this anime's philosophy. I hope this happens!
gay as nibbia
I can't believe these 2 amazing series ended the same week. It's like the gods wanted me to cry that weekend
Thank you Wisecrack for making all my English essays sound profound
Lmao, acting like people can’t be satisfied with their lives and how they end.
lmao acting like they can
Marcelo Nunes that’s tough for you
desires and motivations will be different in heaven from what we used to in life.. that's the basic idea.. we start wrong when we try to comprehend the incomprehensible
There are somethings in life that our brains can't be aware of, and the idea of immortality is one of them.
Time to get a massive bucket of popcorn and binge the entire show
A video about my two recent favorites... really interesting to dwelve deeper into their meanings, even though The Good Place did a good job of exploring Philosophy I always felt a bit of depth to it
The whole "death gives life meaning" Just doesn't make sense to me, death doesn't give life meaning, it gives you a deadline (no pun intended) Almost every single stressful situation i can keep thinking of is due to a constant pressure to achieve things before you die, get an education, a job, a family, a home, a big car, then die surrounded by people you love, maybe if you're lucky you get to achieve a dream or two.
But in a world where death wasn't the end of things, why should i rush to become an architect or engineer before 20? I could spend the first 40 years of my life working odd-jobs and traveling the worlds, without worry of missing out on other things in life, I wouldn't be "too old" I'd just be another soul with stories to tell. We'd be able to achieve our dreams in our time, rather than playing it safe risking dying in regret.
I see your point, but I would have to disagree. I agree that death only gives a deadline to life, and should the deadline be extended all of a sudden life would be better to live, but the reason that death "gives meaning" to life is the argument and understanding of eternity. If people died at 200 then we would have much more time to do things that we inherently enjoy. And then if we died at 500, the same argument applies. And so on for any possible number, no matter how large. But 500 billion is different than eternity. Eternity is forever. A cool mathematical concept that factors is the law of large numbers. Basically, you can take any statistical probability and it will happen given eternity, because eternity is...well forever (i simplified it down and altered the concept to apply more to my example but it really is a fascinating concept). Everything that could possibly happen will happen with eternity. This is why death gives meaning to life. Because we as humans cannot and so far will never be able to grasp what eternity really means. Maybe given an infinite timeline we would still find happiness in life, but I highly doubt it. Deadlines are what makes us do anything, and honestly even in eternity deadlines would apply. You have a deadline to explore earth. You have a deadline until the sun destroys this solar system so that no life could be possible. You would have all these deadlines but an eternity to live. It sounds horrible and morbid to me, not cool.
Yeah, but when you accomplish anything you've ever wanted, get new desires, fulfill those, and do that 500 quadrillion times, you still have infinity left. What are you going to do the next 111111100000000000000000000000009 Googlplex years?
Im not a big fan of the conclusion bojacks answer was more true than the good places......
I binged all of Bojack just to watch this youtube video. Then I waited for a few months until the Good Place's last season went on Netflix. Then I forgot about it until TH-cam reminded me. Totally worth it.
My two favorite channels and two favorite shows!
I think Jared is being quite a bit biased in this episode. Bojack Horseman is not realistic just because it’s daring to be existentially pessimistic in a TV show. Life is not about pessimism and optimism. This is EXACTLY what this video missed. Extremely disappointed with this, Wisecrack. Thumbs down.
ok
OH YEAH MY FAVOURITE VIDEO ESSAYISTS AND MY FAVORITEEESTS SHOWS I LOVE YOU MWAH
YES. this video encapsulates all the good stuff
An analysis of literally my two absolute favorite of all time shows and I am living for it! Thank you!
But... most of the troops are jerks.
That was what sold me on that show. They dared to go there.
Most of the world is jerks.
@@Garrus1995 BECAUSE OF MURICA!!!
I'll take The Good Place's take, thanks.
+ 18000 points
Right on. Nihilism is too comfortable and complacient
I was having goosebumps upon seeing the title, this my two favorite series!!!
The way you described The Good Place made it sound like it's Angel Beats all over again
Except slightly less angst and existentialism and more acceptance (from the get go) and multiple moral arguments (tho oddly less existentialism)