BoJack's Toxic Patterns | "Xerox of a Xerox" Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 มิ.ย. 2024
- SPOILER WARNING FOR SEASONS 1-6 OF BOJACK HORSEMAN
Xerox of a Xerox is a heavy and revelatory episode of BoJack Horseman, and unsurprisingly, it can be polarizing. BoJack deals with the fallout of some of the worst things he’s ever done coming to light in the public eye, and does his best to damage control the situation. But as this damage control succeeds, and the public view of BoJack improves, he starts to fall back into some of his old, toxic tendencies, which would ultimately prove to be his downfall. Alongside the revelations in this episode comes one of the final crossroads in our journey with BoJack, a crossroads where much of the audience decided to take different paths. This episode represents that final peak in our journey with BoJack, before he plummets back down into a valley of addiction and abuse.
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"But if you need another reminder of how long 17 miuntes is... just look at the timestamp of this video."
Fuck man, you hit a chord with that
*oh fuck that’s too much man*
THAT GUTTED ME!!! My jaw hit the floor and I’m tearing up! God, I can’t hell but applaud how the effort to make it exactly 17 minutes paid off for that ONE MOMENT
@@trickofthelight5337 Everybody: wow thats pretty cool.
you: *casually nuts over timing*
@@schloany4479 honestly I did too, made my jaw drop
Fr, felt something in my feet
The fact he waited seventeen minutes gives the title "That's Too Much, Man!" a totally different meaning.
Brilliant point- I’d never thought of it like that. God, this show is great!
My heart kind of sank when he said those words
The video is also 17 minutes long
Fr! My jaw and stomach dropped
@@dr-wn9xc I loved that.
Something that has always bothered me is that Sarah Lynn's mom sued Bojack. While Bojack definitely deserved the consequences of his actions, it just bothered me that her mom came out on top. That even after her death her mom was still finding a way to exploit her. Her mom never showed genuine care for Sarah Lynn. It doesn't really feel like justice for her.
Exactly. That's how it is in real life, sadly. Most of the parents of these gone too soon child stars get to live on and continue to exploit theirblate children for their own gain. It's truly terrible.
It feels even worse for me when in the last episode we see her just talking and holding a frame of Sarah lyn. But it’s backwards. Even she didn’t notice it was backwards. She never cared. She just wanted to profit off her daughter one more time
in a messed up way, even her step dad who was abusing her cared more about sarah lynn than her mum ever did.
Maybe not but it’s real life a lot of of child actors parents put them where they are to leech off their fame and money
what does xerox of a xerox meannn
my brother died of an overdose and the people who were with him didn’t call the paramedics because they had drugs on them too and they were afraid of getting in trouble. makes me wonder if he could’ve survived if they hadn’t waited so long to drive him to the hospital.
I'm so sorry
I'm so sorry to hear that. Are you all right?
I am so sorry for your loss.
@@ravenrose5712 hey, thank you! it's been 2 years and the grief is never going away but i've come to terms with it 💚
@@allison4401 I'm so glad to hear that!
So good, but I want to point out that during the second interview when BoJack says "Sarah Lynn wasn't like those other girls. I loved Sarah Lynn." It pans to PC looking hurt because she was one of "those other girls". She dated BoJack before the series started and it's easy to forget. To hear him saying that he never loved her? That despite being there for him all this time and even standing feet away from him in that moment, she didn't stand out from "those other girls" to him. Uhg. It just killed me and is one of the few things that can't be explained away about BoJack. She had been the biggest support in his life and after EVERYTHING she's just one of "those other girls" he didn't love. She doesn't bring it up after the interview, but I think that's why she's become cold and distant to him. She knows he'll make excuses and she's finally at a place where she's not going to let him treat her like that anymore.
couldnt of said it better myself! so heartbreaking
Turns out PC was just another one of those girls Bokack only wanted to get something out of, even if not fully conciously.
No wonder she didn't want to hang out with him after the interview, I never even thought of that
But then he said: “She was like a daughter to me”. Then again, he let his “surrogate daughter” die to save his own ass.
Thank goodness she found Judah
The revelation of "17 minutes" hit so hard, I think, because in that moment, it feels like Bojack lied to YOU as well as the audience. Like it almost feels specifically aimed at any viewer still defending him at that point.
Ikr we did not have any idea, as an audience, about the fact that he did not share anything about those 17 minutes until in the last season
I felt so absolutely betrayed at that point. It hurt so badly. I did feel lied too, and after that i felt different about the character as a hole
Yeah. That was a very powerful move from the creators.
Yes! I feel like the creators tried to show people that Bojack wasn't a good guy and shouldn't be idolized or so in season 5 (being Phillbert, literally, a parody of bojack horseman and how people try to defend Phillbert), saw it didn't work at all an then procede to do this. I swear the creators are geniuses
The only reason why I defend bojack was because he was drugged out for weeks they were both on a bender I'm surprised he didn't die with the amount of drugs they were taking like it was candy and water so I imagined he was not right in the mind and completely panicked when he found out she died and the drugs really did not help him in that situation
you know what the worst thing is? i could even see the 17 minutes being forgivable. i could see that when he was so high and stressed, time wasn't right. but it wasn't the 17 minutes. it was the fact that he had enough sense to call himself from her phone to cover his tracks. he was sober and coherent enough to do that, so he was sober and coherent for the remaining 15 minutes while she died. thats the unforgivable part.
It reminds me of what happened with Penny. Some people say that because he stopped her at first means he at least tried to be good. But that also means that when he did so it he knew full well how wrong it was and still tried to go through with it.
It's the moment he said, "I covered my tracks" that nailed the coffin for me. Of course Bojack cared about her, he feels guilty about letting Sarah Lynn down, and he's haunted by her death til this day. However, despite all of that he still thought of himself first. He was worried about his IMAGE.
His selfishness overrided his worry about his friend's life and thus failed her. It doesn't necessarily matter what he intended or meant to do, good or bad, the end result was that Bojack didn't. Bojack could've saved her but chose not to to save his own skin instead. Just like Herb. Imagine how his loved ones felt learning this, what if they had an emergency like Sarah Lynn? Would Bojack have immediately called 911? Or leave them for dead to save himself? That is definitely not a friend I would want.
I don't agree, because Bojack called her and very openly and as directly as possible, asked her to take drugs with him, and Bojack was the reason she ever had a drug/alcohol addiction in the first place. I realize the fact she took him up so quickly and the way she responded gives some indication she was ready to relapse regardless, but I think she said yes specifically because it was Bojack asking, and because of the close (yet incredibly fucked up) relationship they have. It was always Bojack's carelessness that hurt Sarah Lynn. If he would've left her the hell alone, if he never left his alcohol where a child was, I don't think any of this would've ever happened. He felt impossible to forgive the moment we learned he left vodka in a goddamn orange juice carton on the set of a kids' show.
@@gothicpixelchick2 no bojack is absolutely unforgivable for how badly he fucked over sarah lynn. i only say, knowing that people can act strangely when they are seriously under the influece, the specific action he chose to take in that moment could have been forgiven. i wouldn't have forgiven him, but it could have at least been rationalized that he wasn't in his right mind, his perception of time was wrong, or he literally didn't realize. but we know that he was coherent, and so there's no excuse that can even remotely make him look like he isn't a monster for taking the action to leave her to die like he did.
@@gothicpixelchick2 I think its not only that Bojack is directly responsible for her later addiction and her final relapse, but he just genuinly failed her and dragged her down on this level. Not all of her problems were his fault, she was forced as a child to become a child star and give up on her actual dream of being an architect and it is heavily implied that her step-father sexually abused her, but when she clung to Bojack as a father-figure and somebody to help her, he chose to ignore her problems, yet instead of trying to form a more professional work relationship took the opportunity to instill his own insecurities and misery into her. And later on, he just keeped her around as somebody who he feels was equally messed up to him, he only cared about her worst because it made him feel less alone.
I hate that Bojack rejected PC's sound advice to quit while he was ahead with the first interview. He made the same mistake in 2007 when he decided to convince Cuddlywhiskers to ruin the Mitch's Life draft, ignoring PC's advice to keep the script as is. It really shows how little respect he has for the one person who has always looked out for him.
He just couldn’t break out of his toxic patterns and his addiction to fame above all else
It's also interesting to add that all the main characters who work with PC learn to respect her and trust her. Todd's string cheese story and him finding his calling as a nanny and Diane choosing to write fun books instead of hurting herself for "good trauma". Once they trusted PC their lives stayed pretty great but Bojack never learned to trust her.
She often gave him sound advice, he just never listened to her.
@@crystalgemgirl731 he is kinda of like Mr. Peanutbutter in that way but instead Mr.Peauntbutter grows and finally learns to listen to others besides himself for a change. Both of them reflect on each other throughout the show and it really shows that BoJack could’ve been a better person.
@@roxanne_ In other words, they're really both sides of the same coin.
finding out bojack waited 17 minutes before calling 911 after sarah lynn overdosed to save himself was hands down the worst thing he’s ever done. it left a sour taste in my mouth too knowing that this situation has probably happened in real life.
The sad part?
Theres a law in California that if you call an ambulance for someone who overdosed then neither you nor then could be charged with drug possession nor neglect.
Bojack calling an ambulance would have honestly been in both his best interest ( morally , legally) and Sarah Lynn's.
Remember her parents sued him for $5 million after this and won.
Bojack could have done the right thing and face no legal repercussions.
@@GoldLove21 damn, you're right. We don't have that law in Texas and I have a friend that caught a felony for saving her friends life, and assumed that was the case in California too. God, fuck Bojack.
@@GoldLove21 Okay but that's arguably worse if he KNEW and was more worried about how it would hurt his career and image. Much like the Penny thing, just because it's legal doesn't mean it isn't shitty and that there will be no consequences.
SPOILER ALERT:
What about the time he almost had sex with a 16-year-old? That's when I stopped watching the show. I was too disgusted.
@@GoldLove21 Did you read that on TvTropes?
As a med student I’m 100% sure those 17 minutes would’ve made a difference, maybe she would have been affected in some way, but I’m sure she would have survived
She was filthy rich, even if she'd had a stroke while passed out she would have the best care and rehabilitation in the world, which could hopefully minimize the effects after a long recovery and withdrawal.
I highly doubt Sarah Lynn would come out of this unscathed.
But she may have finally gotten a chance to live her own life and get her act togather.
Bojack didn't just condemn her to a slow death.
He killed her dreams and future also.
She was eager to relapse when Bojack offered her the chance, but that doesn't negate the huge milestone she had reached in her sobriety. That combined with the fact that she went to AA during the bender tells me that she could have gotten and stayed sober, had she survived.
It wasn't bound to happen.
@@partycitydumpster Plus, all throughout, it was clear that Sarah Lynn was desperate to talk about her life and her deep, deep unhappiness, but every time she tried, BoJack cut her off and suggested getting even more wasted in order to avoid having to talk about her emotions. If he had let her vent, if he had actually been the emotional support she desperately needed him to be in that moment, she would have stopped.
Plus, back in season 1, we knew that the BoJack heroin was way, WAY too strong, and had killed several people. BoJack knew this. He knew.
Narcan would have made a big difference too.
Maybe, but it is LA, response times are already around 7 minutes and considering it's an observatory they're probably into the outskirts which adds between 3 and 10 more minutes to the response time. So while waiting 17 minutes certainly didn't do her any favors, she still would've been without oxygen to her brain for at least 6 minutes and realistically closer to 8 or 10 even had Bojack called immediately, we can do a lot in prehospital settings and even more once a pt is at the hospital, but we can't fix hypoxic brain injuries. The 6-10 minutes was what made sure her brain knew she was dead, the other 17 was just to let her body know too. But I'm also only an EMT, so if you've got more insight on this I'm all ears cause I love learning
the most tragic aspect of sarah lynn death is the fact that it's very heavily implied that her stepfather sexually abused her as a child. by killing sarah, bojack unintentionally stopped any future where she could hold him accountable.
Oh god. That's so disgusting
Oh wow. That's just the terrible cherry on the horrible cake isn't it
Oh my fucking god
You're also missing that Bojack, her other father figure, slept with her. He didn't just stop her from getting justice, he reinforced to her that she was never worth anything to a father except to sleep with, then he killed her.
@@littlesparkkitten this is heartbreaking to piece together
Are we also gonna talk about the fact that the only girl Bojack allegedly “loved” so much was a woman who he worked with as a child and watched her grow up? He can only love the things that adore him/he has some kind of influence over, and like...not only was she his TV show daughter. He had prior knowledge of all her insecurities and messed up home life so he had control over her. It’s insidious, predatory and weird.
right this is what i was thinking
This was an eye-opening comment, Gorilla-Grip Pussy-Support-Hotline-69.
@@nathanmobile1 thank you 🤣
It’s something he likely inherited from Butterscotch. We never see Butterscotch act nice to Bojack, the only time he does is when he is caught cheating on his wife. It is only at that point that he acts somewhat like a father.
Sarah Lynn wasn't the only girl Bojack loved. He admits he loves PC and he very obviously loves Diane too. I get what you're saying though.
Xerox of a Xerox honestly showcases how good this show is at showing consequences of its own main characters. Not many shows are willing to return some of the pain they give to their protagonists.
I wish more shows did that
@@gamer47e17 Same man
What do you mean, return some of the pain
@@toolatetothestory well, in most shows where protagonist are “mean guys”, they rarely face consequences for their actions. BoJack didn’t, it showed him being a complete trash goblin, made the audience sympathize, and still made him pay for what he did
@@quiondasjj9293 or they do but they just like, die. Which is not accountability but boy does Hollywood love to act like it is.
Don't get me wrong, lots of shows with antiheroes make a concerted effort to hold them accountable, or at least get the audience to stop rooting for them to get away with everything. But Bojack is the only thing I've seen that truly breaks that protagonist thrall for almost everyone. Of course you're gonna have a handful of people on the internet saying #bojackdidnothingwrong but it's not like Breaking Bad where half the fanbase misses the point of Walt's character.
And Bojack isn't even as bad as most other antiheroes I can think of! Truly impressive writing.
I never realized that Bojack basically TAINTED "Horsing Around". That show was the biggest positive impact he made in his entire life, and now even that is ruined because of his actions and mistakes.
Well, there was an entire episode about this. They (Angela and others) wanted to cut him out of the show, so that it remains untainted, they only needed his sign and so he did. Horsin' around existed after this, only without the horse.
@@otakarbeinhauer Just _Around,_ and only after he gave away the rights did he sit down and watch it and realize how good it really was, even though the show begins with him literally bringing DVDs everywhere as a security blanket.
It is painfully Cosby-like in that sense.
Kinda like Bill Cosby and "The Cosby Show".
Now it's just called "Around" lol
I think what hurts most about Bojack's decision to wait 17 minutes is there was an alternate option that would have allowed him to cover himself and still get the ambulance there ASAP.
He could have taken her phone and called his phone like he did in the show, but then he could have immediately called the ambulance from his phone and told them "My friend called me and said she wasn't feeling well and that she was at the planetarium. I'm headed there now, can you meet me, I think she may be overdosing!"
He could have slinked off into the woods and still waited for 17 minutes if he wanted to just to firm up the story that he wasn't there with her, but it wouldn't have interfered with the ambulance's response time.
Unfortunately, he was mentally alert enough to cover his own ass but failed to see the easiest solution that also helped Sarah Lynn in her time of need.
Gosh this comment needs to be more liked. Knowing that alternative that could’ve saved her life and maybe save himself just adds more to the pain. It also really shows that he just truly cared and loved himself and his image more than Sarah Lynn or anyone else in his life.
I have been asking the question ‘is there a way that Bojack could have saved Sarah Lynn and still covered his tracks’, the answer is yes
Ain’t nobody bout to wake up from a overdose to call someone, let alone even be able to speak 😭 An overdose would be euphoric, a high so amazing and so potent people literally forget to breathe. THATS what’s deadly about it. There is no waking up, there is no feeling bad. Just pure euphoria.
@@TheGiantDwarf I think when you say " so potent people literally forget to breathe" you discount the physical role that class of drugs has in an overdose, its not so much "they're so high they don't remember to breathe" as much as it is "they literally cannot breathe"
@@ThatKnifingJuggernaut good point. You’re right they can’t breathe period
Almost everything Biscuits said is fair. The only tragedy is it all happened just as Bojack was getting his life together.
Honestly, prison is probably best for him, at least for a while.
@HENDRIX JOSEPH He went to prison for breaking into someone's house, drug use, and drunk driving.
@HENDRIX JOSEPH did you even watch the show
I don’t really think biscuits is a good person either bc she’s only asking all these questions for rating. She doesn’t actually care about Sarah Lynn or any of the other women she talks about
@HENDRIX JOSEPH Breaking and entering (the house wasn’t his anymore) drunk driving and drug possession.
The 17 minutes thing.... fuck. I had a friend overdose when I was with her. We were both high on heroin, I don't know when she od'ed but I know I woke up and she was gone. I always ask myself how different it would have gone had I woken up earlier. She was cold when I woke up. I still tried cpr and called 911 but I was too late. I miss her so much.
im so sorry :(
Do you still do heron?
@@jeanmember I haven't touched that shit since she passed. 4 1/2 years ago
That's great to hear.
That's fucked up... Hope you're doing better!
I love the irony that the 17 minutes is what ultimately got him cancelled. He did that because he was worried that the initial act of causing her overdose would make everyone hate him, but as we see in the episode, everyone's fine with that, it was what he did to avoid being cancelled that got him cancelled.
It kind of makes Sarah Lynn's death even more tragic. Bojack let her die just because he thought it would save his reputation, but it actually made things worse. There was no upside to Bojack's decision.
Absolutely correct. I think this is what makes Bojack Horseman (the show) one of the greatest tragedies of modern art. The only way for him to do the right thing and potentially save Sarah Lynn's life was to sacrifice his own. And by his own I mean his social status and reputation, the only love he ever knew. I'm not saying he had no other love in his life but fame was the only love he was able to see without taking off his blinders and getting off his high horse which he never seemed able to do until it was far too late.
hell, i think it would have been even more of a downside if he had gotten away with it. no justice would ever be done for sarah lynn's death and bojack would get away with yet another reprehensible action
I feel like it was foreshadowed with how he tossed Herb aside to save his career
@@joshualee6932 "high horse", dw i agree with your points and everything i just found that funny
I know right! Well he could call the police and save Sarah Lynn and then tell everyone that was terrible accident. She wasn't some kind of underage I pretty doubt anyone could sue Bojack for intoxication... but for leaving her consciously in danger - YES.
I like how the video is exactly 17 minutes long, really emphasizes how much could’ve been done in that amount of time
Pinky Penguin was the one who revitalized Bojack’s career by introducing him to Diane and publishing his memoirs to save his company, and then he’s the one who indirectly destroys Bojack’s career by begging for a second interview to boost ratings. Perfectly symbolizes the series coming full circle. Ironic.
one thing to note about princess carolyn's reaction to the second interview, a big reason why she acts the way she does is because bojack accidentally says during the interview that he never really loved her and that sarah lynn was the only woman he ever really loved.
Deep down I think she always knew that Bojack was incapable of loving anybody in a healthy supportive way, and that thier relationship had always been one sided.
But to hear it outloud was the final straw
what kinda makes it worse that, even tho he claimed he loved sarah lynn more or the only women he ever loved. He let her die just to defend himself and cover his tracks. He didn't even try to save her properly and in the end he only truly cared about himself
he didn't say that
@@luciferangelica yeah, thats the point
bojack didn't say that sara lynn was the only woman he ever loved. he said he loved her, and she's not like the others. that does not equal the only woman he ever loved. you and even johnny seem unable to grasp that those are not actually equivalent statements
You could see Bojack's choice to not call an ambulance for 17 minutes coming from a similar place as his choice not to call Herb for 20 years. He enabled a bad thing to happen to a dear friend, and then immediately closed the door on them. Doing nothing turned out to be the real crime and did way more harm in the long run.
"I thought you wouldn't want anything to do with me." = "I thought she was dead."
"We should reconcile our differences after all this time because I need to absolve myself of guilt." = "I need to call an ambulance after all this time to absolve myself of guilt."
What's crazy too is that even in the season 1 flashback where Bojack and Charlotte talk about the tar pit she calls him a coward for not making a move on her even though he hadn't become the asshole that we saw throughout the show. While the Bojack we mainly saw was a self-loathing, narcissistic alcoholic it seems that his cowardice is truly what defined his life and led to his worst downfalls, even before he got his role on Horsin Around. He was a coward when he didn't choose happiness by making a move on Charlotte (although to be fair his best friend was still dating her and he probably didn't realize yet that Herb was homosexual), he was a coward when he couldn't admit to Herb that he made a mistake for 20 years and he let their friendship die, and he was a scared, spineless coward when he didn't call an ambulance for 17 minutes and let Sarah Lynn die because he thought he would be blamed for her overdose. This cowardice sadly seemed to stem from insecurity and low self-esteem that he developed as a child that was raised by verbally-abusive parents. However, one of the best themes from this show is that no matter how bad your upbringing is, you eventually have to take responsibility for your actions as an adult. At some point even the "I had abusive parents" excuse goes out the window especially because that excuse does not justify the horrible abuses Bojack has done to all sorts of people including people that cared about him. He seems to realize this in the first half of season 6 and truly begins to change, but of course his past catches up with him and justifiably bites him in the ass.
Exactly! Bojack's biggest problem is his cowardice and his inability to grasp that inaction has just as terrible consequences. Bojack Horseman is a heartbreaking terrible person. Watching the show, we know he cares about others and feels deep remorse about his actions and we root for him but at the same time, we hate him cause he never does the right thing until it's far too late!
@@WhiteCloudProductions Its true. Sometimes you are just stuck thinking to yourself, "should i even be rooting for this man?", but i think thats one of the great things of the show. It doesnt try to make us justify his horrible actions or sympathize with him. It doesnt even sensationalize his toxic habits.
@@kbreezy1581 What are you talking about. The point of the show is to root for him but also to understand him. He quite literally represents depression/unhealed trauma. Way before season 6 we can see him make positive strides towards being a better person but you don't just stop being toxic when you're mentally ill, you have lapses back into your negative habits. It's a constant battle to better yourself and it's not a straight forwad path. The show displays that really incredibly!
But to stop rooting for him is to suggest those of us with trauma and depression are a lost cause. I really don't think that's the shows intent. To get you to stop rooting for Bojack. The intent more so is to show just how hard trauma/mental illness is. We're supposed to keep rooting for Bojack but it's also supposed to be hard to root for him because just like those of us who do have mental illness/unhealed trauma it can get tough for our friends and family to support us through our battles.
At least that's what I believe the show was going for. Don't think it was ever supposed to be "oh, Nevermind... he's just a lost cause. He'll never be good."
@@WhiteCloudProductions All im saying is that the show doesnt make excuses for Bojack and his actions. The show does make it clear what he represents, like u have stated. But the show makes it quite clear that at some point, your troubles dont excuse any of the actions you may commit.
Did you not see how his actions had greatly affected his best relationships throughout the show? The show makes it clear that he is suffering from trauma and depression, but at the same time shows us that it isnt a reason to stick by him.
You can see that in how Todd, Diane and PC withdrew themselves from Bojack. They know what he's going through but at the same time, they know how HE is NEGATIVELY affecting them. He didn't love or value PC. She dedicated YEARS towards this man that never truely loved her, until she decided she should probably dedicate this much time into people that actually love and need her. I think thats also the reason he wasn't invited to the real wedding, cos he wasnt someone she wanted to keep close anymore.
I think the point of the show was to understand bojack and how he became who he was and be able to empathize with him as a character, even see a bit of ourselves in bojack. i dont think it was for us to root for him though. Thats something that a viewer would probably have to decide for themself. As much as i like Bojack, if the point of the show was to root for him, they would have made it easier.
I feel like Princess Carolyn is meant to represent the people who think Bojack shouldn't be punished because he's changed.
Throughout this episode, and the one before it, she thinks about the bad things Bojack's done only in a pragmatic way, of how to spin them in a way that won't do too much damage to his reputation. Because "He's changed right? So why should he have to suffer for things the old Bojack did?".
But then he starts acting all self-righteous, like he's owed forgiveness, like he really deserves all this praise, like he should revel in the limelight rather than just being glad that he avoided punishment. And I think that makes her question if maybe he does need to be punished, because he hasn't really learnt his lesson.
I really feel her disappointment when she says "You could've just gone back to Connecticut". She's not just disappointed that he's being cancelled, she's disappointed that he ended up deserving it.
I know u posted this 2 years ago...but damn that just blew my mind
@@TsunayoshiSawada469 lol yeah, I’m always so surprised at how smart this show is, as well as its viewers. I’m just as asshole who find stupid piece of shit relatable. Although that simplicity is comforting to me
The worst part of this whole show, in the very best way, is the fact they tease us with the best possible future for everyone, because if you think about it, nothing at all is better than before the interview, his life post rehab as a teacher put him far away from things that could trigger him, he genuinely helped the people he cared about, and had people still connected with him but far enough away their lives were all improving, and the thing is even the good that should have come with the truth about Sarah Lynn’s death being revealed is muted by the fact her mom used Sarah Lynn both in life and in death, and only ever truly cared about benefiting from her child, so you could argue that up until the interview things were going the best they could, then that good ending is pulled away but even then bojack gets the opportunity for a second to best ending, if he stepped away his whole world would still be benefiting, but that wasn’t enough for bojack, and his broken, self dependant foundation made all his progress fall out from under him
@@Centurion0419 lol yeah
Something to also point out:
BoJack, upon being accused of being responsible for Sarah Lynn getting drunk when she was 10, proceeded to accuse Sharona BY NAME. BoJack and Sharona met again year's after the incident at ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, and he proceeded to name out Sharona by her REAL NAME on live television.
Im glad the others at Alcoholics Anonymous kinda stood up for her/made sure not to be like 'oh poor baby' to bojack but like. dang. poor sharona. she went thru so much :(
@@Anonymous-mo7oehe may not be felt welcomed at that particular AA group but nobody be kicked out of AA as a whole. It doesn’t work like that.
This was the episode where I finally accepted that Bojack is a terrible irredeemable manipulative person.
Ditto. People treated him like a poor victim or kind of a grey character, but he's a villain. It's very odd that people don't hate him as much as Diane, whose worst crime was being mildly annoying at times.
Yes, he is. People who grew up with a narcissistic parent knew he was bad right away. I wish society as a whole didn't require this level of obvious, overt badness in order to recognize and hold accountable chronically destructive people. But all they have to do is have charisma or act like victims and they get sympathy . People don't understand that just because an abuser has dreams or sad feelings for himself doesn't mean he's a real, feeling person in terms of how he sees and treats others. You can't feel sorry for their self pity when they just keep destroying others.
@@lordfreerealestate8302 I think the you're confusing legitimate hate with dislike. People dislike her because she's more annoying. And how much people like a character rarely has anything to do with how good of a person they are.
@@IamCree you do realize that people can feel sympathy while realizing that the person ain't good right? They ain't mutually exclusive
@@vibez2806 lol...Obviously.. But it's not always that simple. First, what's problematic is when people sympathize with an abuser or find his character compelling while also not holding him accountable or feeling disdain and outage for what he's done. Unless you're a therapist treating a narcissist or APD or serial abuser, the primary sympathy should be with the victims. But that often doesn't happen. It's hard to think about what victims go through, and it's often more interesting to find out what makes a destructive person tick.
Second, it is a hallmark of narcissists and sociopaths that they gaslight and manipulate the people around them, over and over and over. If you're a family member, this means hundreds and hundreds or even thousands of times, being driven crazy, victimized, then shamed for being hurt, because you feeling pain from them hurting you somehow "victimizes" them. If you sympathize with these people AT ALL, they can sense it and will get a toe hold again, you will in some way leave a small part of yourself open to care about them or believe them when they give excuses or make promises, and the abuse will continue. You need to walk away and set a big boundary of not buying into their self pity. My comment was for people who deal directly with this type of person. You can't sympathize with them, because it's all a manipulation that they'll use to revictimize you.
A piece I don't think gets enough credit is what Diane says about what she knows bojack will say in the first interview "he'll admit to the question but nothing more, show business is awful my parents were abusive,"
Diane was his friend and supported him over and over no matter what and for a time he was getting better but when Bojack was once again ducking covering and avoid responsibility for his actions she's EXHAUSTED and Done trying to help him
Good point. BUT weirdly she did contribute. Remember in Season 5 when he just choked Gina and hes so guilty that he tells Dianne to write a story about Penny, so he can "feel better". And be punished for what she did. And she just doesn't. Maybe because she is screwed up by here divorce and their fight. And instead drives him to rehab, (where he wastes a year and gets his addiction councilor drunk and fired).
I didn't blame her at the time. But she was a part of it. And she knew what was going to happen. And she is still tangled up in pity and accountability.
Even Bojack doesn't benefit. He's the one who tries to commit suicide. And he isn't in jail for sexual abuse, or assault or the Hollywood D or even breaking into his house. He broke into everyone house when he was famous. Its his suicide destroyed property and violated copyright
@@elizabethlee2136 Wait WHAT? How was that on Diane? The Philbert Premiere fight was the beginning of the end of their friendship. She had almost nothing to do with his downward spiral (aside from the writing in the Sub scene in the show and even that had next to no impact on anything) she wasn’t even working on the show when he choked out Gina and she didn’t want to be involved in “Holding him Accountable” because by then she knows through the Hank Hippopopolis and Vance Waggoner thing that it by in large doesn’t do any good.
Between the fight and Taking Bojack to Rehab was the last-ditch effort to make him understand that like Todd said “You can’t keep doing shitty things and then feel bad about yourself like that makes it ok you need to BE BETTER”. There is no way Diane could’ve known what would happen at rehab or after. And the Dr Champ thing was something NO ONE could predict.
For a time it seemed to be UNTIL the truth about the Sarah Lynn Story came to light and in typical BoJack fashion he does everything he can to get out of it… Diane has seen this PR play so many times she could run it in her sleep and she’s right about all of it
And she’s not responsible for the 2nd interview or the aftermath Bojack’s the one who got cocky dug himself in deep than he was before and everything from legal trouble, the relapse, signing away his rights to Horsin’ Around and up to including ‘going swimming’ was his choice and the consequences of his actions. In the end Diane was right to cut him out permanently for making her feel like she was to blame for his near death
Man that was long but needed to organize my thoughts
@@elizabethlee2136 That wasn't Diane's fault in the tiniest bit. She tried to help her friend the entire time to help him grow into a better person. If anything Bojack takes advantage of Diane way too often. She didn't know he was going to get his addiction councillor fired, she had GOOD INTENTIONS when she sent Bojack to rehab. That's like saying a cashier is guilty if they sold a knife to someone they didn't know was a murderer.
@S P I don't like ranking people and kinda hold people responsible for what they do. And I don't think its out of line to hold Dianne accountable for a well intentioned mistake, when she must have known the consequences. And the consequences of Bojack telling what happened to Gina were important. It was not her choice to make. And she ENCOURAGED HIM not to report a violent crime.
If Bojack had seen someone attacking Gina on the street, and was questioning to report it or not, and Dianne gave him the soft kid gloves treatment, wouldn't it be the same.
I am one of those rare people that think that Bojack once stripped of his fame and money and power will flourish in sobriety. It was a toxic system that insulated him from consequences. And Dianne in that instant was a privilege he did not deserve.
He took advantage pf her kindness, but in the end it resulted in the same result as if he never went to rehab.
He ended up spending six month in rehab drying out but not healing, he ended up in a big sex/drugs/scandal that ruined his career. THe only thing we realized that Bojack wasn't irredeemable and one of his triggers was being a famous powerful wealthy guy who escaped consequences. And now he's in prison for crimes he actually did. And the first step to be a better person. Which also would have happened if he confessed to what he did to Gina.
I think one of the worst part of Sarah Lynns death for me is that we know her mom and stepdad recieved a lot of sympathy and even a cash payout, despite effectively contributing to ruining her life, and with their victim (and most likely the only one fully knowledgeable of what happened) gone, theyre never going to be held accountable. Theyre just going to be seen as poor parents who lost their child too soon.
But again, this is part of Bojack's punishment. Fuck, he didn't care that her dad was a pedophile. He didn't care that she was working again and that she was being nominated for an Oscar. He didn't care that she was working on sobriety or that she wanted to be an architect. He just wanted a druggie to do a bender with
Stepdad was hinted to be sexually abusing her
What's worse is that they'll replace Sarah Lynn and repeat that same cycle.
"If you need to know how long 17 minutes is, just look at the timestamp of the video. That's too much man."
Me, who watches everything at 1.5 speed: That's deep.
The audience was like: “Wait, what? Let me check. (Sees the timestamp) OMG, YOU’RE A GENIUS!!!!🤩”
This dude knows how to end a video, holy crap
I was looking for a comment like this, that was an amazing ending
Lol I searched for a comment like this too 😂
I actually find it to be ingeniously creepy, but with mad respect
Oh jesus, that line about 17 minutes at the end of your video hit hard. Solid work, man
Ikr
Bruh fr tho
It honestly felt like half an hour. Oh...oh, _god..._
Who else said “F’ Bojack” in their head at the 17-minute count? SMH #GoodjobJonny
Fr! It got to me there
13:46 You can see Vanessa Gecko in the background of Princess Carolyn's wedding. It's great to see them being friends now.
another symbol of how PC has moved on
True, but isn't this the "industry" wedding rather than the "friends and family" wedding?
@@BeaglyBeagle488 True, though it is still nice to see that she was willing to do that considering their relationship at the beginning of the show.
Ironic that Diane, who tried to cling onto the last remnants of their friendship, fully cut Bojack off, while people who gave up on him/set boundaries, like Princess Carolyn and Todd, kept some sort of contact/relationship with him.
Boundaries really save some connections and sometimes trying to be close with someone is the reason why the relationship fails.
I got literal chills when I realized this video is exactly 17 minutes
Whoaa thanks for pointing that out, i wouldn't have noticed otherwise
Is a long ass time to wait to call an ambulance. I would have understood 5-6 minutes. 17??how do you wait so long knowing someone is dying??
That’s too much, man...
*oh mygod*
@@naochan133 when you're a selfish prick like Bojack who most likely didn't wanna call because he thinks he'll be blamed for her condition
And the sad part is, Sarah Lynn likely wouldn't have blamed him because she still believes, after all this time, that he's a friend. She has no one else in her life to truly cling onto, she easily fell into his manipulation and lies like all those years ago
I got an ad for people bettering themselves through caring for a horse.
Therapy horse
That must be the best-timed ad ever.
Ha, dark.
Although I guess caring for Bojack Horseman And thus watching his show CAN help us better ourselves, through hope like "It gets easier, but you have to do it every day." or through displaying Bojack's mistakes so that we can avoid making them ourselves.
And then that therapy horse just yells in a gravelly voice:
"I love alcohol, my parents suck"
The most annoying part about him waiting 17 minutes is that there is no legal consequences for calling in an od
I don’t think legal consequences were the reason he hesitated
aye, it was all about his ego and avoiding embarrassment or ill accusations
@@Rhodair Except waiting is what caused the public outcry. No one blames you for someone else's OD, if you call ASAP
True, but there could be consequences for being the person to provide her the drugs. That being said, if he had called in the OD immediately Sarah Lynn probably would've lived and it's unlikely anyone would've even looked into the situation too hard, so they probably wouldn't have even found out he was involved.
@@HeyLeFay If you know anything about drug laws, there are protections for people who call in an OD. You get inmunity for that - they don't care how anyone got the drugs, or if you're high, or if you were committing another (non violent) crime like trespassing at the time. ODs kill, so the law bends to make sure no one ever does what Bojack did. On top of that, Bojack is well known to do drugs and lives on the celebrity set of laws. He killed Sarah Lynn, and he STILL didn't go to jail even after admitting it. The comment you replied to is correct, there are no legal consequences if you call in an OD.
In discussing Bojack's worst actions, I never see anybody mention Maddy. You never even see BOJACK mention Maddy. The memory of that trip is just filled with the guilt over Penny and the shame regarding being caught by Charlotte, to the point where I honestly don't think Bojack ever thinks about her after the night is over. For all he ever knew, he killed her, and her life is still less than an afterthought to him even after Sarah Lynn. There is never any guilt or remorse or any sort of thought at all, her survival meant nothing to Bojack.
Maddy's extremely short but huge role in the show will never not be interesting to me
but maddy survived. I guess you mean he never thought about how he literally poisened her with alcohol and how he ditched her and the other guy at the ER.
She did survive, but he didn’t know that. For all he knew, she died
If anything, Maddy's alcohol poisoning and how Bojack handled that was a huge indicator of how he would handle Sara Lynn's overdose. In Maddy's situation, she was lucky since they were with other people. Bojack has partied a lot, I'm sure he knows what alcohol poisoning looks like, yet he was still hesitant to take her to the hospital until the others insisted. And then, because there were other people around, he lets (almost threatens) a teenager be the one to take responsibility to resolve himself of it. Which yeah, they were already planning to drink, but being the adult in the situation who also provided them with more and even stronger alcohol, they're automatically his responsibility.
But Sara Lynn was alone with him, and Bojack never gave a second thought to reflect on the Maddy incident and see how that was screwed up. So Bojack did the same thing, he provided the drugs then created a situation that would resolve him of the responsibility of her overdose. And without a fall guy to take responsibility, he leaves her for almost 20 minutes (the 2 minutes for the call + the 17 in the parking lot) to create an alibi. Bojack is the exact type of person you do not want to party with.
And that forgetfullness over Maddy’s well-being ends up being one of the reasons Hollyhock cuts BoJack out. Poetic irony
Another thing that bothered me was Bojack literally gets into a huge accident in order to gain pills in a way that won't upset Hollyhock. I'm not sure if we ever even know if the other person survived, but we do know he did hit SOMEONE and not SOMETHING because he says to Diane "Some Asshole was t boned by me" or something along those lines. Even if they survived he literally endangered several peoples lives and wellbeings by speeding in a bust area and getting in a huge crash, just to A. Get pills and B. Get them in a way that won't ruin his promise to Hollyhock. Issue is K basically never see anyone mention it at all. It does kind of get glossed over, but its so incredibly selfish horrible
I think that “The Veiw From Halfway Down” changed him. It is very self centered that his own death is what changed him, and I don’t believe Sarah Lynn’s death changed him. We as the audience know deep down Bojack is a bad person, but him joking about “I guess I’m not a criminal mastermind!” shows how little he cares about Sarah Lynn’s death anymore. DARK Stuff ladies and gentlemen.
Huh personally I don't believe in "deep down" 😏
I think it misses a fundamental fact of addicts. That the mirror of Bojack is Sarah Lynn, that neither of them wanted, wants or knows how to want help. Sure Sarah Lynn was sober for a few months but she dropped it at the drop of a hat. Sobriety doesn't mean anything without a system and Bojack has no support now, he's lost everyone that cared about him and he never had any support he worked with. Bojack used people but he never saw people as their equal. Although in some weird way I think he realized that Sarah Lynn was the only other person to view themselves as negatively as he did himself. Sarah Lynn used other people because she was forced onto a pedestal by her parents, same as Bojack later achieved to be in a place where she lost connection.
Personally I think Bojack is still scared of connections. That the series ends on a negative note and while he might more consciously try to avoid hurting people he's still not the better for it. The world is better for it to know who he is, but it doesn't benefit his recovery.
@@sunphoenix1231 I believe that the series ends on a positive note considering the prior episode. “Life a bitch and then you keep living” perfectly describes this ending to this show. Sure you may think Bojack hasn’t changed but this quote suggests that Bojack Horsemen still has time to “keep living” and change. If he relapses, he’ll get sort again, the same way he can change his attitude and relationships with the people in his life
@@intensetrims7024 that's kind of how my life is for me right now too, which is how I empathize and that's not good enough I think for anyone. You can't be better in a vacuum. Bojack has to learn how to rely on other people and make actual amends to other people. The people he hurt don't have to let him back into their lives but he needs someone. I don't think Mr. Peanut Butter has that emotional maturity yet. I think if we had gotten a sixth season we would have seen that.
@@sunphoenix1231 Exactly which proves my point for the ending that it leaves it so Bojack can do these things. And it is good that you realize that you can change but I wouldn't try to relate to Bojack. Obviously I don't know u and ur probably telling the truth but I went down that lane as I got caught up in fetishizing my own sadness.
I love how this show portrayed Bojacks overall character arc of his attempts to change and the progress he makes, while at the same time him slipping back in and out of his old self when put under pressure.
I also love that PC let's him go, finally as well. Thinking back to the episode when Bojack fired her when she needed him the most, Bojack deserved to be the one who gets dumped even in his darkest time.
You are also forgetting the shitty thing that she did to him. Outside of forging hsi signature, she also completely destroyed any chance he had of repairing his relationship with kasey jannings by demanding more and more money, in order to try and force him into the philbert role more.
@@taddad2641 1) he damaged that relationship by himself, 2) if u watched the ep Bojack kept pressuring her and making demands. She did the best she could.
I don't believe Bojack really loved Sarah Lynn. At no point in the show did he put her needs above his own. He didn't even see her needs as equal to his. She was nothing more to him than a little doll he happened to get attached to. Bojack is kind of unable to see other people as people as opposed to side characters or props in his own life. That's why he's so lonely and he feels unlovable--he has no love in his heart for the people in his life.
i think his occasional anxiety attacks that are triggered when he remembers Sarah Lynn show that he had some personal connection to her as a person. He really cant see it because of the layers and layers of self centered preservation that he puts up with every person he talks to. He does comprehend that his influence set her on a bad path and it tears him apart.
He didnt really see love as an exchange that involves sacrificing the self until he goes to therapy. The last episodes are relapsing into the compulsive behavior patterns that has plagued his entire adult life.
@@billygoatguy3960But that just makes it worse. He knows he fucked up and yet it doesn't stop him from doing the same thing over and over again
Id normally agree, but in Free Churro he talks about what he believes love is, and its so twisted and wrong that he very well could loved her and just not known how to express those things. He was never shown actual healthy love and cant express it
bojack is an INCREDIBLY well-written character. it is very rare to see a piece of media where the protagonist is also the villain. it is also rare to see pieces of media actually hold protagonists accountable for their shitty actions.
personally speaking, i definitely have a little bit of bojack in me. i could have wound up a much, much worse person if i never got the help i needed. he also could have been better if things were different, if he got help. obviously i don’t think that he’s redeemable at this point. but i do wonder what would have happened if he got help for his addictions and his trauma when he was in his twenties.
something i noticed about the second interview; when asked if he took a high school girl to her prom, bojack says she was "a family friend". which is a straight up lie; penny isn't a family friend. i'm pretty sure charlotte didn't know bojack's family, so there's no reason why penny would.
so not only was bojack making the situation look much less severe than it was, he also lied to make himself look completely innocent. it really is a display of how unwilling bojack is to truly be honest about his horrible actions
A family friend don't have to be close with all of the family.
@@WasabiKitCat aah i wasn't thinking about the fact that bojack was a family friend at the time!! good catch.
i was thinking more about his framing; he says "that was a family friend," not "i was a family friend." which seems to imply *penny* is the family friend.
tbh, i'm not sure if calling someone who's part of a family *you're* close friends with a "family friend" is accurate, can't find a good source on it, but that's probably closer to what the writers meant.
Well she was the family of a friend so i guess family friend makes sense? Charlotte was one of his good friends, part of his work family, and Penny was Charlotte's family.
Yeah the thing i notice about that scene is that Bojack doesn't seem to treat it as a big deal. Usually whenever characters bring up memories of that event Bojack goes into a small panic, but here he seems completely unfazed by it. Most people see that as Bojack moving on from his past, but that's not really how I see it. Bojack's version of "moving on" seems to be don't feel bad about anything anymore, but that's not moving on!
@@onefey the way he frames it with PENNY as HIS family friend, instead of HIM as PENNY’s family friend, decentralizes Bojack in the story-it conveniently leaves out the fact that it was BOJACK who came into HER life, and distances him from his own responsibility. It’s not “I did this” it’s “this happened to me,” in a sense
Which is to say, I absolutely agree and THANK YOU for bringing up the way he said those lines. It’s defensiveness all the way down, even when he doesn’t realize it
All of those pretty justified accusations on Bojack and he still didn’t face any consequences for nearly choking out Gina (or have it even mentioned) which scarred her badly, but didn’t say as she didn’t want to be only known as someone who was choked out by a celebrity. I’m glad we at least saw a billboard showing that Gina got the superhero part that a director told not to cast for her, but she’s definitely still traumatized from that and what happened to her will probably not be brought to light. It’s sad to see that Bojack’s horrible actions will still affect the people he hurt.
Also those last lines in the video holy crap.
Bojack wasted that year in rehab. He wanted to confess. A million dollars later and it never would have worked. He also got his councilor drunk by accident. So it was less then worthless. I always thought Dianne was wrong in not letting him confess. At least Gina has the excuse of being in denial and traumatized.
I still feel bad for Bojack, but jesus christ. What was the point. A dumb cabletv show, a marvel movie, a dumb movie about a unicorn, a newspaper article, good ratings. Was it worth it? All this misery for a few buck and good ratings?
gina is such an important part of the final situation because it shows for all the women that bojack hurt over theres years, there was more that the world didn't know about, which tends to be the true of abusive men
I think another important part of Gina's story is respecting a victim's wishes. Like she didn't want to be known as that girl who was choked out by him. She gets to define her story, even if its in a way that doesn't feel like justice for others.
Also, they did do that interview where they "cleared the air" and pretended that it was just great acting. After all the truth came out, I'm sure there are people who will connect the dots that it wasn't just acting.
@@NoDeathforDinner see That is the other wrinkle that this show was bold enough to tackle. If the victims wishes are perpetuated by fear, and help the corrupt establishment continue, is it philosophically fair to allow the abuse to continue. Or even logical. Gina's fears were irrational and fueled by intense trauma and self hatred. She would rather be in a movie then be safe and secure. It's such a strange but believable twist.
I mean the reason why women and even men dont report rape is usually misogyny. Not the convenient easy to spot kind. Peanutbutter the nicest person in the series had to wrestle BoJack to the ground, yet he didn't really help Gina. Hell Diana the ultimate feminist in the series was willing to let it pass and like a bro acted in lieu of the typical male coverup. It didn't matter.
We have to ask ourselves. When is a mans reputation more important then a womans safety. This show asks the hard question and makes all of Bojacks many many enablers as human beings.
And in the end enabling him was pointless.
But it's TRUE until Bojack is poor and accused of theft and defamation of corporations, he gets away with crimes. Only crimes against money matter.
And while he is crashing at Mr. Peanutbutters beautiful Mansion, he may get more jobs in the future. So while it is awesome BoJack emds in prison. Why is it theft and defying the corporations more important then the assault on a real person?
It really makes you confront unpleasant truths.
i like to imagine that, after gina landed that blockbuster role and bojack got cancelled, she came out about what happened, now that she was attached to so many big name projects (philbert, which was presumably one of the most successful shows in the series' universe, the superhero movie, and presumably other notable parts since she was now a big name actor). i dont usually headcannon stuff for shows or movies but i make an exception here, gina was one of the only normal, good people in the show and i dont like the idea of her living with that hidden trauma forever
*"Sharona was a drunk too, so you can't trust a thing she says. Obviously, she has a vendetta against me. Besides, I already apologized to her."*
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the contrast between those lines. Just a perfect example of Bojack's hypocrisy.
“Apologized her for what?”
Way to go to throw her under the bus
The i already apologised to her line reminds me of when he met herb 20 years after horsing around where he assumed since he apologised everything should be fine
What's worse is that Sharona wasn't even the one who snitched. He outed her as an addict for something she didn't even do. That's also the real reason why the AA group shunned him. Not because they were hopping on the bandwagon, but because he violated the anonymous sanctum of the group
@@violetrose674He literally through her under the bus to save himself
Honestly, I think the second interview needed to happen. Bojack got off a bit easy in the first interview and he knew it.
And because of that, he learned nothing.
He was immediately back to his arrogant streak where he felt invincible and decided to go forward with the second interview just so he can get his ego boosted and his “poor Bojack” image boosted too. “See? I’m NOT a criminal mastermind.” With a smug look to the camera.
Ugh. He needed to really get taken down a peg. He needed to face consequences because he’ll never learn that his actions have consequences and not just to the people he affected
Maybe a part of him knew he got off easy and that’s why he agreed to do the second interview whether he knew that was the reason he agreed or not??
@@madisonlawson9342 i doubt that, we've seen him actually remorseful in the show before and that was not how he was acting after the interview
Do you think that the ‘xerox of a xerox’ speech is supposed to mirror secretariat’s response to bojack’s letter?
Both bojack and secretariat make statements on their difficult backgrounds, and there are hints of their past misdeeds catching up to them, for secretariat it was gambling on his own races, and for bojack it was his awful, albeit unintentional, behaviour on the women in his life.
After the interviews, their reputation is thrown into the dirt that eventually push both horsemen to attempting suicide, but thankfully, bojack gets a second chance.
I think it does. Not sure if that’s intentional or more so just the writing staff’s philosophy leaking through the papers
i really really like the symbolism in the last scene with bojack and todd, when at the end of their conversation their footprints are washed away and i think its supposed to symbolise the 'clean slate' todd was talking about
The first time i learned bojack waited 17 minutes i cried. I could no longer make excuses for him because I know the impact 17 minutes can make.. such a long time to wait. Thank you for making that point at the end. I cried again.
I had a full blown panic attack when when he choked out Gina 😔
@@emilynelson1969 our girl Gina didn't deserve that and neither did you
why would you care about Sarah Lynn lmfao. she was the worst/most annoying character in the entire show, and i’m not the only one who thinks that.
@@tiny_m0w good for you? 🍪
@@tiny_m0w yikes sounds like you have some self hatred to work through
You know what's even sadder about the 17 minutes choice? Bojack CALLED them after 17 minutes, and didn't take a full 17 minutes to get Sarah Lynn to the hospital. I know ambulances make to their destination as quickly as they can, but the ambulance alone could have taken another crucial 6 or 7 minutes to GET to the planetarium. If she died in the hospital, that means all of the minutes could have saved her.
It's heartbreaking.
as always, a great essay, I can't believe it's been a year already
one thing I'd like you to tackle is Hollyhock's decision to cut Bojack from her life, I feel a significant portion of the fandom has been really hard on her, even with some of my favorite youtubers without taking her perspective into account
Will definitely be talking about this on Sunday’s live stream!
I'm team Hollyhock here.
I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. People really think that Hollyhock, A CHILD, had the responsability of giving a grown man another chance. Specially if she feels uncomfortable and unsafe around said grown man.
UES I SECOND THIS PLS DO ESSAY
@@matti.8465 Right?? I feel like people overlook just how turbulent their relationship was. Although they grew to care for each other, Bojack exposed her to so many dangerous/inappropriate situations(having sex with the president of the Bojack fan club in front of her, entangling her in the toxic dynamic between Beatrice and Bojack, forcing her to spend a night searching for drugs with him, and more) that she absolutely shouldn't have been around. Hollyhock gave him love, gave him the benefit of the doubt SO MANY TIMES when she really didn't have to. I completely understand why Hollyhock was too heartbroken and traumatized to continue a relationship with Bojack.
When I first saw this episode, I felt lied to and betrayed. It took everything I felt towards Bojack and threw it completely out of sorts.
Same I hate this man so much but I love him too
I think I love the show more than him? It’s hard to explain ngl
ngl i had some sort of sympathy twoards Bojack since he was getting better and "trying" to improve, but after hearing what he did with waiting 17 minutes and falling back to his old tatics just because of his ego, i just immediately hated him but it was something different because it felt like genuine anger. Which is weird since hes a fictional character and all and im never worked up on a character like this but Bojack just really pissed me off in this episode.
@@Frogburger0629 Most definitely, love the show, hate the character
@@y.9645 Exactly, I've never felt genuine disgust and anger at a fictional character before, but this show did it.
This episode was us watching the other characters realize they needed to set up boundaries with him essentially. Bojack was able to impact their lives like this because most of the cast just...let him. And Diane was using bojack to cope in similar ways that he used her. They were codependent and toxic for each other.
its to feed his narcissism
it always makes me so mad that even in the final episodes Bojack never listened to Princess Carolyn. he NEVER truly appreciated her
After you said Sarah Lynn was left there fore 17 minutes, my heart sank. This video encapsulates how long Bojack thought about what to do, eventually shutting down and protecting himself above all else. A house of lies finally crumbling under its lack of foundation.
I'm in no way in defense of what he did, but I'm sure given the blackouts and how high he also must've been at the time that perhaps the 17 minutes probably didn't feel as long to him. We never got to see what actually happened when Sarah Lynn didn't wake up. Neither the characters or the audience have that extra context. Again, it's shitty that he waited and certainly unforgivable in my opinion. But I'm not seeing this angle considered enough.
@@arlieklaasse7048 another commenter, @Al Gellish, sums this point up perfectly in another comment.
"Al Gellish
4 months ago
you know what the worst thing is? i could even see the 17 minutes being forgivable. i could see that when he was so high and stressed, time wasn't right. but it wasn't the 17 minutes. it was the fact that he had enough sense to call himself from her phone to cover his tracks. he was sober and coherent enough to do that, so he was sober and coherent for the remaining 15 minutes while she died. thats the unforgivable part."
yes, perception of time is altered when high but he was coherent enough to do what he considered to be a "criminal mastermind's" plan of calling himself from sarah lynns phone to make his story, which he was already thinking of, viable in LE eyes. he spent 17 minutes planning his own excuse instead of calling for help
Honestly one of the reasons I love your channel so much is that you take into consideration that the characters in the universe know less than the audience. Idk how to describe it, but it really bothers me when fans don't want to acknowledge that taking advantage of someone even if they give consent... is still taking advantage of them.
subconsciously we all know very very clearly when we are taking advantage of someone. Fuck it..every interaction is a transaction and everybody knows what's going on. But we put layers and layers of masks & keep convincing ourselves
I think that, because there's been so much toxicity online of "if you like a character who did X bad action, you are supporting/enabling doing X", a lot of people feel like they have to justify, even to themselves, why a character who does bad things is good, actually. I believe this is in part why so many people struggle to accept that BoJack really did fuck up that badly, and that he deserved to be held accountable for his actions in the interview. That it was even the best ending for him, because running away from his problems all his life would only lead him to worse and worse outcomes.
Yeah and a lot of people use his substance abuse issues, trauma and depression as an excuse for his terrible actions which I find stupid since for example Diane had all the same problems and did none of the shitty things Bojack did.
@@user-of9yb6ye3d she did different shitty things though. And hell there was a point she enabled him. She drove him to rehab instead of to a police station she was a part of it. Yet she's a person we like too.
@@user-of9yb6ye3d Yeah but pain is relative, and even if two people have the same problems they didn't have the same experiences. No two people will have the same experiences in life, similar maybe but not the exact same.
I know some people who have similar traumatic experiences, one has dissociative identity disorder and the other doesn't, yet it's in no way the person's fault for having DID.
I'm not trying to defend his actions, but I believe it's impossible to compare two people.
@@sunsetsarsaparilla4434 I agree but also I don’t think his problems are an excuse for grooming a 17 year old, Letting Sarah Lynn die and the numerous other things he did
@@sunsetsarsaparilla4434 eh that’s not the same. No one is saying it’s Diane’s fault for having depression. They’re saying she didn’t continuously abuse people and such while also being traumatized. I think people are just acknowledging there’s ways to be traumatized and not abuse and mistreat people. No one is debating whether being mentally ill in a certain way from trauma is anyone’s fault.
The reason bojack waited 17 minutes IN HIS CAR is because he couldn’t decide whether to ditch the girl or not. He knew he would get in trouble if he stayed, and he couldn’t stomach the reality of her dying. He’s a coward. BUT, like all cowards, he decided to make this about himself, made himself the hero, and called for help. If you ask me, he decided to take the easy route out. He’s a pos, he’s sick, he’s a monster.
Straight cold truth.
The fact that you manage to do this analysis on 17 minutes and throw that line in the end........ it hurts
Cool profile pic dude
@@wayfarinstranger9962 thanks :) its a picrew!
Yeah...that's too much, man...
What I love about this episode is that BoJack does hold himself accountable in the end. The very last line of the episode is him admitting that it's him and him alone. But by that point it was too late and the damage has already been done
Unfortunately that is a pattern with his character :/
If Bojack wanted it to look like he found Sarah Lynn, he could have called his phone, then called the ambulance right after, and explain that Sarah Lynn called him and sounded delirious and he was worried she was on drugs.
Bojack: “Guess I’m not a criminal mastermind.”
This was an excellent video.
I think it’s also important to mention Bojack’s former costar, Gina. After he assaulted her, it was difficult for her to get acting work because of her PTSD on set.
However after Bojack goes to jail and is punished for “kinda everything” you can see her on the billboard playing the lead role in the new superhero film when he’s at the diner with Mr. Peanutbutter
i always thought it was weird that she wasn’t brought up in the interview. obviously biscuits knew about her, since she did the previous publicity video for them. but someone else pointed out that she frequently puts her hand to her scarf, like when she says “you don’t know what it’s like to have power over women?” as if she’s hinting about the strangling.
Ravioli's thumbnails make me wish Bojack was one of those cartoons with title cards. I love the detail with how the first Bojack on the left starts as a regular sketch, but becomes increasingly darker with messier linework to reflect the ugly picture the last interview painted of him. And hey, the black ink ties back to The View From Halfway Down too!
Also when you photocopy a document that's already a photocopy, the quality drops.
Yes that would be so interesting
The fact that you made the video 17 minutes just makes you realize how long bojack sat there. And the difference was we were watching you and out minds don't understand how long the video truly is. But to bojack he wasn't doing anything, just sitting there as time seems to move even slower for him.
When bojack said "Sarah Lynn wasn't like those other girls" right in front of Princess Carolyn during the interview, I think that fuelled PCs choice. She was always something of an afterthought for him.
The fact that Bojack was willing to give up somebody else's life is horrifying to me. Although Sara Lynn chose to do drugs, he legitimately could have saved her or helped her in MULTIPLE instances. It's worse when you let it sink in; BoJack was willing (and did) give up someone else's LIFE to save his own skin. Not just a random person either, but his surrogate daughter and long time friend.
That ending had the genuine affect of what 5th graders think they’re doing when they end their shit with “and it was all a dream”
Ugh yes! It was soooo frustrating. The view from halfway down had me sobbing so I was soooo mad when I heard the heart monitor start up again
@@jasminemcgowan1800 I’d argue that as amazing as The View from Halfway Down is, it shouldn’t have been the ending, because it wouldn’t have allowed BoJack to face the full consequences of his actions, and it would’ve kinda been reminiscent of the “redemption through death” trope that is used all too often. It’s still a phenomenal, heartbreaking episode, but it wouldn’t be proper for a finale.
That’s my two cents, at least.
@@helenaperez4343 For me, The View from Halfway down was the ending for the overall narrative of the show, as it encapsulated everything the show was building towards and Nice While it lasted was the epilogue and start of a new story, with prominent changes in characters, relationships, and environments.
@@jasminemcgowan1800 i feel like bojack dying would have been too easy
@@Delta_Avesto paraphrase Diane, I see Nice While it Lasted as the day after the end credits, and it perfectly makes us want to see the day after that and so on
This show was excellent at showing how ignoring your trauma and running from your problems can destroy your life . Bojack refused to admit how messed up he was and how he needed to take responsibility for how he reacted to said trauma.
i dunno, i always saw it more as him infantalizing himself BECAUSE he knew he was deeply traumatized, sure he ran from his probpems and clearly didnt likw talking to people about his trauma but you can see in every interaction he has with his mother that he full well knows hes traumatized, he just weaponizes it as an excuse to absolve himself of guilt because "well im just a product of the bad things that happened to me, so this mistake i made was unavoidable and also not my fault"
Lets all remember today that you can absolutely hurt the people you love. Bojack loved Sara Lynn but he was unable to love in a normal, healthy way because he was never loved like that. And he was so terribly selfish that no matter how much he loved her, her wellbeing was never going to be a priority. He was always going to look out for himself first and then everyone else.
I did a experiment with the 17 minutes:
Put a timer and tried to distract myself for 17 minutes as I waited to call a hipotetical ambulance.
And jesus it was too much for me, I couldn't stop looking the clock, it seams like forever and I couldn't stop thinking sarah lynn was next door dying and I was doing nothing. I hold myself for 10 minutes before finally succumbing the temptation to stop the clock. I wouldn't be able to wait so much and I can't imagine how bojack did it.
And god sarah lynn isn't even real!
This is a pretty good idea actually. Someone pointed out that Bojack was (probably) high at the time, so the 17 minutes might not have felt as long to him...I don't know. When I smoke weed it feels like time slows down, granted, I don't know what he was high ON
@@toukofukawa1166 he was high on a bunch of things, Sarah Lynn pointed out a bunch of the drugs she had in her home, plus he also took the BoJack heroin with her.
@@helenaperez4343 oof oh my god not heroin on top of that shit. thanks for clarifying though 😣
The 17 minute bit at the end is genius its creativity beyond the unstated confines of the platform. Bravo 👏👏
🙏
Please do a video on the backgrounds in various episodes; some of the activities in the backgrounds are absolutely hilarious. Another idea for a video is a character breakdown on the complexities of Vincent Adultman....just an idea.
Shady Doorags already did that, only 'cause we forced him too.
Lol Jurj Clooners goes to prank rehab
i just realized the reason why i watch bojack horseman so much when i’m depressed. it has such highs and lows that when i’m at a low point in life, it feels like it can come back eventually instead of being this perpetual state of depression. but just like bojack horseman, it crashes back down again after some highs, granted they are fairly short but it sort of gives me hope that i can be a diane and not a bojack in the end.
Something I always remember with Sara Lynn is her step father. I know it sounds weird but hear me out, a few times, subtly she makes comments about him that could imply he was sexually assaulting her, like when she goes to Bojack's dressing room when she was a child in horsin around because her stepdad was "being weird" or in a later episode where she knows what bear fur tastes like and explains it away as "her stepdad was a bear" it's not definitive but this situation is common, maybe it says in my head because in a way I feel her trauma. To me it's anothee explaination as to how she acts with Bojack, on horsin around he was her tv dad but it meant more to her than that, that's why his lessons stuck with her so hard into adulthood. I don't know, it's just something I think of a lot
making the episode the exact length of the time Bojack waited was a master mind move, congratulations!
This being uploaded on my birthday feels like a personal attack and a gift at the same time and idk how to take it.
Happy Birthday :)
Happy birthday 🎉
Happy Birthday 🎂 🥳
Happy birthday 🎉
🎂🎉
When fans of the show were critical of the second Biscuits Braxby interview for misrepresenting what really happened, it pissed me off but I couldn't articulate why. The show is far from immune to criticism but I was certain that that wasn't a fair criticism. This video has explained it perfectly and in such a beautiful way. My main takeaway comes from my perspective as an aspiring writer, which is why the second interview was not only fair but also excellent writing. It's that the audience have a privilege that characters do not-we will always have a fuller picture of what really happened. Like how we know about the pain of Beatrice's life and how she ended up the way she did, but BoJack never knew. (Incidentally, anyone who simultaneously defends BoJack no matter what but finds Beatrice indefensible-what????) This isn't to say that if the characters knew everything we did that BoJack would be in the clear, and I really hope not too much up the fanbase thinks this way. Just that I think this is something we should remember when making our assessments of the actions of fictional characters.
Its brilliant irony and I thought that the shows writers were going to stay out of the me too movement. Bojack who wants to self flagellate for all the things he's done because he hates himself, loses because of something he didnt do and almost wasn't responsible for. Its so awesome.
I hate how so many fans of the show go out of their way to make excuses for Bojack and defend him for his terrible actions, when the show itself doesn't even do that. The show never asks you to root for him because it is aware of the severity of all his actions. It simply just tells things from his perspective, but its up to you as the viewer to recognize that this man is not perfect, heck he might not even be a good person. But he is human/horse
This episode hurt me.
Because I felt bad for bojack. And I hated myself for feeling bad for bojack. Because this isn’t about bojack being the victim, this is about everyone he hurt.
would love to see more videos focusing on Diane episodes
I’m definitely gonna start branching into other character’s episodes soon. I wasn’t even planning on doing XoaX but I got so many requests after That’s Too Much, Man it seemed like the right move
@@Johnny2Cellos Can't wait to see those videos! much love 💖
I'm leaning towards "Good Damage". It kinda leans towards the myth that mentally ill people or just people who went through a lot of trauma become great artists because of it, when it really is despite those things.
@@matti.8465 I agree, Johnny please do a Good Damage video!!!
Bojack Horseman is a Masterpiece
Dang that's Brilliant! I gotta take notes. The 17 minute thing came completely out of left field while I've been sort of binging your videos to the side/background these last few days. Gotta find a way to appropriate this sort of moment into my own work haha
Thanks! Hey I love your thumbnails
Hiding ilyyy❤️
The second half of season 6 made me think of Cuddly Whisker’s “only once you give up everything, can you truly learn how to be happy”. Bojack loses everything and hits rock bottom, even losing PB after all the years she’s stuck it out for him. Ultimately this is the best thing for Bojack, a factory reset back to 0. The guilt won’t go away and the ramifications of his actions never disappear yes, but those 14 months in prison are a great time for him to reflect and learn how to be better.
16:26-16:34
That way of ending the video gave me chills...
Yeah, that came out of nowhere
@@ciklopas598 in a good way?
@@sesereddead465 yes
@@sesereddead465 ofc
I genuinely believe that watching Bojack helped me to recognize and break my cycle of addiction. Seeing him go through the same feelings that I did and thinking the same thoughts was a really powerful experience. I’m really glad that I was introduced to this show.
Bojak has done so many bad things that it built tolerance to his behaviours because we've seen worse as viewers but what reeled me back into my senses is when Pete "Repeat" had a conversation with Hollyhock about Maddy at the balcony and I'm glad she cut him off.
Yeah, that scene felt like you were seeing Bojack finally from a real outside perspective. He isn't the lovable famous actor who is working for a comeback, he's just a scary rich older man who preys on kids to have fun with
@@carlycrays2831 That's what we call great writing
There was always a part of me that just...wanted Bojack to get better and learn from his mistakes and not have everyone cut him off. It's one of my biggest fears, that I fall into the same trap and repeat my parents patterns and all of that, I suppose...
A deep analysis on the toxic and self-destructive nature of our titular horseman?
This is going to be good....
Just wanted to let you know that I watched the first 40 seconds or so of this, and decided I would watch the show, so stopped of course. I'm watching it now, and it's amazing. I always thought this was just a cartoon show about a talking horse. Thanks for opening my eyes :P
I actually felt hopeful by the end of Bojack. Every season you felt “this can’t possibly get worse”, and every time he found a way. By season 6 though, he’s genuinely trying, and that interview, rightly so, tears him to shreds. There is nothing left to Bojack by the series end, but that makes me believe that with nothing left to rely on, no more excuses, no more skeletons, the effort he gave to be better might actually make him better now. His friends are gone, but he’ll have a quiet life. He can be at peace with himself.
17:00 long video. Exactly. After looking at the time stamp every so often. It hits so hard, like how can a person do that to someone they “love”
This episode was so cringey, watching as Bojack learned absolutely nothing; I love the show but doubt if I could sit through it again. 😬
But it was cringey in a good way tho. Like it was on purpose.
That was the point...
It's ironic Biscuits talked about Bojack's power over women when you think about how the last time Bojack interviewed with Biscuits was to cover up the Gina story (where he clearly had power over her)
Xerox of a Xerox is actually one of my favorite episodes. It threw old Bojack back in my face and reminded me that Bojack has come so far but he still has a lot of work to do. Makes him feel so much more real. Great review as usual
that second interview is so hard to watch, even still, and there was definitely a part of me hoping that it wouldn't go too badly, but i'm obviously so glad that it happened. bojack could not have just gotten away with any of his terrible actions or else the entire show would've been aort of ruined in my eyes. the show needed to make clear that these actions could not just be forgotten with time, and that the character could not just "change" and be redeemed without any big punishment. the idea that some people were upset about that second interview just makes me physically ill because bojack is not supposed to be liked really, and his actions are not meant to be defended. He's not some sarcastic but ultimately good anti-hero, he's an abusive celebrity that hurts the people around him who is broken but sometimes wants to be better but still manipulates people, etc. He's a very complex character and there are definitely SOME parts of him that i relate to, but bojack is not meant to be sympathized with here.
Hey y’all! On Sunday I’ll be hosting a BoJack finale anniversary live stream with Mann of a Thousand Thoughts, offbeat kiki, ToonrificTariq, BoJackHiddenJokes and Shady Doorags!
4pm EDT / 1pm PDT, don’t miss it!
oooooh
Can't wait. I wonder what behind-the-scenes BS had to happen for NF to pull this. Probably one of the best examples of animated media in the genre.
Will this be through TH-cam Live or twitch?? Super excited to see it regardless!
Hell yeah
did you make this episode 17 minutes long on purpose? if so kudos!
That final interview made me feel like BoJack. You're deep in BoJack's shoes throughout the show you don't see the patterns. Biscuits put them into perspective painfully
He waited 17 minutes to call the ambulance, and then there's the time it takes for the ambulance to get to her in LA traffic. Sarah Lynn never stood a chance.
I don't think it's ever brought up in universe or even by fans, but in the real world, after this interview, people would bring back up the whole situation with Gina and start wondering if it truly was a silly accident or if he ACTUALLY strangled her violently on set and she was forced to deny it (of course she wasn't forced to, she wanted to for her career, which still wasn't healthy, but the people wouldn't know that). Knowing how much she didn't want to be known as "Bojack's victim", it makes me wonder how the interview affected her career afterwards, if she was ever asked about the strangling incident again in light of what everybody had learned, struggling more and more to keep face now that everyone knows all the bad things he's done, which even she didn't know.
I think from further reflection, and from one year away from watching the season Finale, BoJack deserved the treatment he got. He treated so many people in his life terribly, and having him going away from what he has done scotch free, isn’t right. I find the first and second interview interesting because both can be seen as a win and a loss. The first interview is a win for BoJack but a loss to societal justice, while the second interview is the opposite. For the audience, its a win win and a lose lose because simultaneously they see a man that the audience has grown to like, but also want to see his actions be brought to light. It hurts to see a man you care about, get brought to the justice that he deserves, but its also gratifying to see one less bad thing in the world taken care of. That’s the complexity that I love about this show.
Re-watching the show lately. Analysis like this really help add another level to the viewing experience
Holy shit, that bombshell ending had my jaw ACTUALLY drop. You're such a good script writer for these video essays. You'll be hitting 100K subs in no time
“Oh god Sarah Lynn is about to die I better call a- oh shit new Johnny 2 Cellos video”
-bojack probably