Why the Engulfed Castle fails to be "Submerged"
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ส.ค. 2023
- In Pikmin 4 they introduced the Engulfed Castle as a Submerged Castle remake, but I believe it fails to capture the same magic that made the original work. I also believe a new unique cave would have been better than this rehash.
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Pikmin 4 does so much to make both the game and caves easier. Imagine if the Engulfed Castle was the ONE exception with that, where they really messed with the pre-established rules on how caves function to make the Engulfed castle even MORE horrifying by ripping away all the niceness of the game.
Imagine this: the engulfed castle has been swapped with the Dandori trial in the coral reef, so it’s very deep underwater. You walk up to it, and get a note from Olimar claiming his Pikmin refused to go near the cave, so he decided to not even touch it. Already, this cave is mysterious. You’ve been warned not to go near it. But, you want treasure! Besides, this game is so nice! What’s the worst that could happen?
You hop in, and immediately, Collin and Shepherd try to contact you, but the connection is foggy and it’s a little hard to make out what they’re saying, but it’s still readable.
The only foliage are glowcaps scattered around. The walls are cracked and covered in moss and barnacles, all in all the place is disgusting and unsettling.
The music begins to swell, for once in the game the realistic ambiance is going away… eventually it becomes deafening loud… Then! After 5 minutes! You hear a roar….
A cut scene starts, introducing the wraith. Collin tries to say something, but the connection is lost. You can’t communicate with them at all… you get no introduction to the wraith, all you know, is that you should have taken Olimar’s warning.
Once out of the cut scene, the lights go out, and the cave suddenly becomes incredibly dark. The only way to see the water wraith coming is briefly seeing him run past a glowcap or by hearing his roars and unsettling groaning. The music becomes far more intense and frightening when he gets close, similar to the music in the night expeditions.
You check the map, but it’s bugging out, you suddenly can’t see the locations of enemies and treasures, and it CERTAINLY isn’t telling you how far into the cave you are. Finally, you decide to just leave, so you open the pause menu. But…
You *can’t* leave. The option is just greyed out. *You’re stranded.*
The levels are changed to be bigger and more maze-like like in 2. There’s no wild Pikmin anywhere. Falling bomb rocks are back. Overall, the feeling of being trapped and helpless is back in SPADES! Heck, give the wraith a new ability that causes Oatchi to freak out sometimes or something.
You go through four traumatic sub-levels of absolute horror, and you finally land on the final floor. You find purple Pikmin! Collin and shepherd are still AWOL so the game instead relies on good ol’ level design with the paper bag to teach them to you. From here, things go as normal, you finally get to CRUSH the wraith and REAAALLY take pleasure in putting it through everything it did to you! Maybe add some more effects or sound effects to really drive home how miserable, horrified and pathetic it becomes once you get purples.
Once it’s FINALLY dead and the TRIUMPHANT music plays, Collin and Shepherd finally regain connection. They explain to you that they had accidentally cut their own connection, and were casually working on fixing it. They ask how you’re doing, completely unaware of what just went on. Maybe they could even mention that they never detected any life forms other than you/Oatchi and the Pikmin. They then notice purple Pikmin and start talking about them.
Was it a dream? A hallucination? They never saw the wraith, it was only you and your team… you’re left with a strong sense of unease as you exit the cave.
Upon surfacing, the exit point is kept the same as it is currently. Very far away from the new entry point, leaving you completely disoriented and confused. Not to mention, zero time has passed, how odd is that?
I think the Engulfed Castle could have been even better than the Submerged Castle, but they were too scared to take it further. How it is currently completely loses that sense of being alone, trapped, and helpless. Between Collin and Shepherd constantly blabbing, the ability to leave the cave with no punishment and the over-abundance of Pikmin sprouts, the mood is completely killed. The level design is also much more plain, and not very maze-like. Not to mention the lighting is way too light.
The submerged castle stood out in 2 since most of the caves functioned identically. The caves in 4 have more unique gimmicks, so the Engulfed castle needed more to make it stand out. This might be too much, but making it feel like it’s straight out of a creepypasta is INCREDIBLY fitting for the wraith and submerged castle as a whole.
not to be rude but you have a degree in yapology
@@peterkart7281 No but I have an interest in game design and wanted to share my fun idea on how the topic at hand could be improved. If it’s too long for you don’t read it, which I’m assuming you didn’t
*this*. This is something i would do. this is perfection. ive legit stared at it for ten minutes now. i wanna be given this new trauma rather than just relive it and become a speedrunner. after all, its the only boss to break the rules and appear mid-level. why shouldn't the cave break some rules?
Also i love how in depth you went with the concept, made me feel like i was in the pikmin 2 cave all over again.
@@ToasterUltimaVer1 Yayy!! So glad you liked it!! Thank you!!
Who knows. Maybe Nintendo will try again later down the line and get it right
I have just one HUGE problem with this idea: NEVER bring back the random, unpredictable falling bomb rocks. It doesn't add true challenge, only pure unfairness.
One advantage of the engulfed castle I don’t see people talking about is that it will most likely be your introduction to purples. It makes them feel WAY more impactful and important when you get to them because you’ve never seen them before and here they are to save the day
That's actually a fair point, this is probably the first pro Engulfed comment I actually agree with
i got introduced to them in heroes hideaway
I disagree, rather than making a pikmin type you already have more badass by learning it has more abilities than you previously knew, 4 just conveniently introduces purples to you, like the game is leaving a key right near a lock you need to open rather than having that same key for half the game and realizing it can be used on a new lock.
It feels lazy imo and makes both the purples and water wraith feel more gimmicky
I’ve said this before, but the Engulfed Castle is a WAYYYY better introduction to purples than it is a remake of the Submerged castle. Both the Wraith and purples are synonymous with Pikmin 2, so putting them together yet again is such a fun reference. That being said, it would be even better if the cave was actually a good submerged castle remake
@@oOTheMastaOo240 No, you didn't "realized that your old key could open this new lock", Pikmin 2 LITERALLY TOLD YOU to use purples by placing the only 2 purple candypop buds in the cave right before the arena where the Water Wraith is waiting for you with the boss music playing.
Also, by your logic, purples introduction in Pikmin 2 is also gimmicky, since they first appear to help you carry a treasure that conveniently weighs more than your Pikmin limit, which is a problem that was just created to show off the new Pikmin ability.
The only problem i have with engulfed castle is the spoiler at the begining in Olimar's log and to me it removes the eerie feeling when you first enter the cave sure the themes still there and all but its less hard and challenging if that makes sense.
Oatchi, as much as I love him, nukes the difficulty of the Castle so much, as you don't have to worry about navigating your entire squad around the Wraith (even though you'll likely not see him much anyways since Oatchi can double your speed essentially). Imagine he was unable to enter with you through the water at the entrance. It'd definitely throw players for a loop, having to adapt to solo gameplay, which in turn would make chances of the Wraith being a threat much higher.
Oh, that would be such a great idea. If the water made him unable to enter, it would've made engulfed more unique compared to the rest of the game
i wish they made some no oatchi caves. there are caves where you have to seperate briefly; but some caves i think would make a lot of sense to just have oatchi be unable to enter. theres that one in the giants hearth where you need to climb up a rope to get to it and i thought for sure thatd be an oatchiless cave but it wasnt which was a little disappointing
Honestly there should have been multiple full on caves that prevent oatchi completely, I love him but he undeniably takes away a lot from the experience of having a large group of pikmin behind you that have to be carefully monitored.
I think that would solve a lot of its problems. If oatchi couldn’t enter
@@ViIvaNunner yeah, fighting the gildemander without oatchi seems like it would be a fun challenge
how to fix engulfed castle
-Lock away oatchi till final floor
-waterwraith spawns faster
-make waterwraith rolls faster and doesn't get stuck
-more enemies like swooping snitchbug and puffy blowhog just to slow your progress
-bigger treasures
Before seeing your comment I was think the same thing for oatchi. But also be for all non needed boss. Not counting the water/mud baldy long legs and the water man-at-legs.
@Lordbowser666 to be fair you can try fight other bosses without oatchi if you just leave him at the final sublevel base
but waterwraith in other hand where you need to run away from him
and most new players would just ride oatchi. so i just wanted engulfed castle to be the only cave you can't use oatchi till final floor
@@firsydaboy3041 true since the only Pikmin I lost was by the slam attack and it was minimum of like 3 something. Since I had buff lvl 6 and doggy paddle lvl 3 at that point it was a cake walk. Aka just hide and have oatchi carry everything when it spawns.
Honestly, I was slightly disappointed in the Engulfed Castle for a _slightly_ different reason - I feel like it was actually a little _too_ loyal to the original, rather than trying something new.
I'll cut straight to the point as to what I mean: I wish they let you use Rock Pikmin for the Engulfed Castle, or let you find wild Rock Pikmin in there. Since Rock Pikmin would be weak to the various water hazards around the cave, but _also_ be immune to the Waterwraith itself, I feel like this could have been a cool way to add a bit more depth and additional options to consider.
Here's hoping that if Pikmin 4 gets a DLC of some kind, there's something that uses the Waterwraith in a new and interesting way, because at the moment it just retreads old ground.
I agree! A new spin on it would've been nice, a shame we just got an easier version
Pun intended?
Spoiler allert
I think the Trial of Sage leaf used it in a very fresh and cool way.
Since its chase is a risk vs reward in it.
@@MAXIMUMPOWER42 If you're referring to "retreads old ground," then yes, I did intend it.
I think that the only copy floor should be the second one. It’s the most iconic, it’s after you do a fresh floor of the first floor, and only at that point do you get the “wait” moment. Now, they have to remove the stupid spoiler right at the preview, but you get the point.
Engulfed Castle to me was a victim of context. Pikmin 2 had a much darker take compared to the first, and I think the developers were trying to show how the world had adapted against the Pikmin since the first game. Areas were tonally and visually darker, and difficulty was up across the board. You're not back on the planet as a victim of circumstance, so you don't get the first game's warmth and charming weirdness. You're here to pillage, and you're willing to go to the deepest depths to get it. The world somehow knows this, and it strengthens its defenses, making you fight tooth and nail every step of the way. This culminated with the Waterwraith; the natural world's anger toward you given supernatural life, abandoning any natural desires or instincts and made solely to destroy Pikmin. The Submerged Castle shows it as well; the haunting chanting in the background constantly, maybe mourning moans from past victims, or leftovers of some ritual performed to summon the creature. Dungeon after dungeon of traps, bosses, and methodical pillaging have forged you into a grizzled veteran, always ready for another curveball, and the dungeon pulls the tension tighter. But this dungeon is different; you don't get the luxury of slowly disassembling a floor with whatever Pikmin you wanted; you have to make it work with blues and Bulbmin. Once you've reached the bottom, and finally do the thing in, the satisfaciton is immense. Essentially, surviving that cave proved that you were good enough for the rest of the game, and it also proved your ability to overcome the invisible hand of the world hell-bent on stopping you.
Pikmin 4's Engulfed Castle has none of the context of the world, the gameplay, or anything else to raise the stakes or tension, and the aforementioned preview picture spoiling the surprise was also disappointing. The world you've explored so far has been so much happier and brighter up until that point, so the Waterwraith and it's lair, while still scary, feel out of place, more gimmicky. The fact that it comes back for the last sage challenge doesn't help, it makes it seem more like just another enemy, rather than an anomaly beyond understanding surviving in the lair the world made for it. The dungeon itself is also disappointing. Oatchi removes the most challenging aspect of the dungeon(crowd control), and the grassy areas the Wraith can't touch feel unnecessary and almost condescending. One of the tense parts of the dungeon is the more Pikmin you bring, the more you can get done (and that you can afford to lose), if you can handle the increased crowd. Now as long as you have Oatchi, the only time Pikmin are in danger is when they're carrying something, and it's far eaiser to babysit them if the slower, dumber Wraith can even reach them.
As much as I love seeing the dungeon and boss again in crispier graphics, they pale in comparison in both gameplay and context, much like the Man-at-Legs.
I AINT READING ALL THAT
I didn't think about that before, but it is interesting how Oatchi does effectively remove difficulty for high pikmin counts.
Doesn't seem likely but it'd be neat if there was a limit to count of pikmin that could be on Oatchi.
The terror of the engulfed castle is not the water wrath itself but rather never knowing when he is going to spawn unless you set a timer or countdown you will never know when your 5 minutes are up.
This is what kept me tense the whole 4 sublevels he did end up spawning on sublevel 4 for me though.
Heck the first time I played the engulfed and submerged Castle it didn't even know of the 5 minute time limit I thought it was random
Engulfed Castle is a lot more intense when you limit yourself. For example... I've been doing a challenge run where I can only use Oatchi and 1 of each Pikmin type, so I only had 1 blue and 1 glow pikmin.
All things considered though... it was still way too easy, since I was still able to get most of the treasure before the wraith spawned, and the rest were easy to get because the wraith is so slow. And this was with Oatchi and 2 pikmin.
I really hated that every cave showed a spoiler photo of it. Showing hazards are one thing but by showing a photo it completely takes away any sort of mystery. I always liked trying to guess what a cave might look like based on its name BEFORE going in. Not possible in Pikmin 4.
The only time this was a good thing was for the Foolix. The strange photo of a drop of nectar makes you paranoid of nectar the whole way through. (At least, the first time you play.)
THIS
@@AshoreNevermore
This game is clearly targeted mainly to series beginners so the picture wouldn't have been a spoiler
WELL BUT YOU KNOW SOMETHING TRAUMATIC IS GONNA FALL AT ANY GIVEN TIME, so traumatic that olimar forgot what the hell happened in there, in fact
@@TheActionTourist
@@javierascanio4309 Sure but there's still mystery in what it is
The submerged castle wasn’t hard from the water wraith it was hard from how evil the floors were. Floor 3 electricity when you only have blues and some Bulbmin. Then floor 4 just being bombs everywhere was just as bad. In 4 both the floors are completely nerfed. Electricity doesn’t Instakill which basically removed most the challenge from floor 3. Then floor 4 got hit the worst because the entire point of it used to be that there were just a bunch of bombs falling from the ceiling and just generally everywhere, now there’s just 2 dweevils carrying bombs. Those bomb dweevils actually killed a decent chunk of my squad my first time which was the first time in this game that happened. Submerged castle was special because of its gimmick on top of how hard it was. It took at least 30 resets to complete deathless, when I play 4 deathless it will probably be like 5.
This. People need to realize that Pikmin 2 was just flat out bs at times. Thats artificial difficulty. Also, knowing the fact he exists now and you know how to address him automatically makes WW less frightening.
@@thekirbycrafter7229Wdym “this”? He was saying 2 did it well lol
Also he’s too slow and riding oatchi removed most the threat of him crushing your Pikmin if they arnt working or anything
Yeah and the saddest part is, those 2 bomb dweevils are pretty much the ONLY place in the game where they show up. Literally only 2 (and they aren't even a unique enemy anymore, its just a poison dweevil holding a bomb).
Electricity should be instakill again.
You forgot to mention that the waterwraith no longer makes scary noises, thus making it barely scary at all!
Yo that's a good point
I feel like the entirety of the creature sound design for Pikmin 4 is just inferior to the other games
@@imreallybadatnamingthings It's so true.
@@imreallybadatnamingthingsmusic too was inferior compared to pikmin 2
@@Teinve Agree.
Emergence cave is the most unique cave in Pikmin 2. It's the only cave in the main story mode with potentially 7 cutscenes, and no boss.
Damn you're right 😂
One thing I'll give Pikmin 4 is that it doesn't feel like enemy spam like the original was on the fourth floor. having about 20 random unpredictable flying bombs is a little absurd tbh, and I wish there was more challenge than "hope the RNG gods bless you with only a handful of volatile dweevils." Pikmin 4's version opts to give you a startle spore jumpscare, and the ledge that has probably caused more extinctions than any other piece of geometry in the series.
Pikmin are faster in 4. It's nice to see the same layouts as the original, but as a consequence to that it ends up feeling a lot smaller
Yeah but the 4th levels lay out is completely messed up. The floor had like 50 bombs now there’s just 2 bomb dweevils.
Its not just that... the actual layouts ARE legitimately smaller. They're scaled down compared to Pikmin 2.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt underwhelmed by this cave. I was super excited to see the Waterwraith in HD, but the lack of difficulty completely misses what the original was going for
I remember that I just completely stopped being afraid of the Engulfed Wraith as soon as I found out he doesn't even chase you
Even more reasons why it's bad
@@ObisStuff Saying it's bad because it's not unfair like the original is such a bad criticism
@@_squee__dandori issue 🤦♂️
@@_squee__An enemy trying to kill you is inherently unfair? I've never heard of such an unambiguous skill issue in my whole life.
I always felt the original submerged castle also suffered from the wraith not spawning quick enough. Really dissapointed that the issue was further magnified rather than corrected.
Further magnified? I encountered the wraith on every sub level except one and I’ve been playing Pikmin for YEARS and I’m pretty good at it.
@@-BenGaming-how are you gonna say your good at it when you encounter him every time 😂
I also encountered him every time in Pikmin 4. While not a dandori god I'm not really bad at Pikmin either. I feel like some people have a warped view of what the average player experiences lol
I only saw him on the last floor right before I left. I wouldn’t call myself a Pikmin god either.
i was panicking and i managed to go fast enough that i never saw him fall down other than waiting at the exit for like a minute on the fourth sublevel
it was still cool
A couple extra points about the cave.
The foliage marks some of the only points in the cave the wraith can't reach.
You can reenter the cave with any pikmin type once you've gone through it once by just entering through the exit which makes you do the cave in reverse, meaning you can use purples to kill the water wraith on any floor if it appears on return trips.
@@nobodycares6761 i think it does if you 100% the cave
I'm happy this video exists, because this is 100% what I thought when I played it. I barely saw the waterwraith at all, what a letdown. I would love if Nintendo added a hard mode for this game, and lowered the timer or added enemies. Anything to get me to have to deal with the thing.
I feel that the issues with the Engulfed Castle are an extension of the broader issues I have with Pikmin 4 as a whole. Pikmin 1 and 2 carried an ongoing sense of hostility toward the player. In those games you were surviving an unfriendly and unfamiliar world that felt much bigger than you. Even factors as basic as the air you're breathing and the sun going down are deadly to you. A seasoned captain is capable of fighting back against the planet but not taming it. You are an alien on this planet, and the planet will not neglect to remind you of that.
With Pikmin 4, the planet now feels like a tourist trap. Everybody wants to come here and learn about the Pikmin, explore the caves, or shoot a documentary. It also takes away from the sense of isolation when you've got a squad of teammates looking over your shoulder and commenting on everything you see. Exploring the nighttime is now no big deal, and enemies no longer respawn aboveground, meaning you can truly conquer the planet and make it yours. It's like the amusement park version of the Pikmin planet. The equivalent of Jurassic Park, where you can experience a facsimile of the planet without exposure to the danger.
The Engulfed Castle is a continuation of that trend. An imitation of the spectacle without the threat of danger. I can't give Pikmin 2 enough credit for having the restraint to only show a cutscene the first time it appears for balance reasons (so that the player can be made aware that it appeared and attacking it is futile). Cutscenes take control away from the player and provide a temporary reprieve from the danger, so Pikmin 4 having one per floor makes the Waterwraith's arrival less impactful. Its slower movement and less aggressive pathing makes its presence less meaningful, to the point where I didn't even feel pressured to leave after it showed up. Also, as far as I can tell, it doesn't regenerate its treads after they're broken anymore, which means it can be completely ignored after destroying them during the purple onion challenge.
I definitely think the Plasm Wraith was the better execution of a "new" Waterwraith. You can't defeat it, but you can slow it down; it's not after you, so you can't simply run from it; time is still a factor, so you likely will have to lose against it for a day or two; and it adds further mystery to the Pikmin planet and its seemingly willful desire to keep pulling Captain Olimar back to it.
"it doesn't regenerate its treads after they're broken anymore" Where did you get this information? The Waterwraith never did this in Pikmin 2.
The slower wraith and the safe zones for your squad make the Engulfed Castle so much easier than the Submerged Castle.
The safe zones were there in 2 as well, they just weren't highlighted
@@TheMikman97where should i hide then?
@@Bulburt zones blocked off by arches. He can't pass under them
@@TheMikman97 Making the SS Beagle's landing site into a safe zone is weak af.
@@Minty_Meeo pretty sure it always was on some floors even in the original, but it might be rng dependent
2:51 Fair argument, however there are actually TWO dweevils in the Engulfed Castle section compared to the three in Submerged Castle. You happened to avoid trigger the second one, it seems.
I also think the addition of the Pearly Clamp Clamp adds to wasting time, as it is one of the beefiest regular enemies in the game.
Fair point, but then the actual item you gotta carry from that area is much lighter in Engulfed, which also makes it faster
The obstacles they add don't offset the ones they removed
That when I saw the water wraith spawn on. On that floor
Practically everything is lighter in Pikmin 4, its by design as the game needs to account for the Pikmin limit likely still being around 50-60 at that time
In The Engulfed Castle, I had the Water Wraith appear in Sublevel 3 & 4, and in Sublevel 4, I had trouble moving a apple, because he camped the apple for 5 minutes straight. It is NOT EASY AT ALL. *I WAS SCARED.*
I had trouble with that same apple! I had to call my Pikmin back in the middle of a hallway, and the Water Wraith got stuck on the corner and was on top of the apple.... I had to use Oatchi to slowly nudge it out from under him (but because of how the wraith works, he would get crushed and take damage each time) I was just barely able to get it.
I was extremely disappointed by this cave. It only had 3 new layouts for an already short cave, AND the ai was worse.
Like why not extend it if its a remake? It would definitely increase the tension for veterans knowing theres a large risk. At first the reused layout was cool to see again, but as soon as its over it feels like a cop-out.
I never encountered the water wraith before floor 5 in pikmin 4, since the sublevels were too short. However, watching gameplay of others doing the cave made me realize how stupid the ai really is.
There is no excuse for the ai to be worse, but I may have an idea as to why it is.
Perhaps they knew what layouts there were and designed the ai around them for pikmin 4, but the ai in the second game had to account for dead ends and rng, thus forcing the devs to make a more competent and versatile ai to keep it threatening. Who knows though.
Submerged Castle was not randomized; they would not have needed to program his ai to account for dead ends/rng
While I personally had an amazing time there (by amazing I mean 95 dead with a cap of 70 Pikmin, so I was literally replacing the army I lost per level. 40 were to water wraith, 40 were to bomb rock spider, and the rest was from everything else in the cave), I will gladly state Pikmin 4 had a golden opportunity to improve on literally everything this cave had to offer. The stinger here is that the opportunity was on a gold platter in the Pikmin 4 game itself. The engulfed castle was lacking in teeth and in difficulty, and it barely sold the idea of its eternally legendary self way back in 2, but Pikmin 4 has a post credits postgame, where virtually everything is more difficult. Why the heck not just have this postgame reintroduce the submerged castle again but with as much enjoyable insanity as 2s? You literally did this post game exclusicity with man at legs, who is unavailable to fight until after the first credits roll. It’s perplexing.
I am so SO begging for this game to have new game plus, dlc, an expansion, a difficulty expansion, anything really. Hell, waiting 5 years for this thing to be backported to switch two with added updates functionality like having an oatchi and captain splitscreen asymmetrical coop gameplay option with added difficulty or remixes to the base game is literally all I want, nothing more. Anything towards more Pikmin is good at this point I don’t want to wait 9.9 years again
Yeah some DLC giving us the REAL submerged castle (maybe a sequel?) where it's 15 floors, much harder and actually scary.
I definitely agree with you on it being way too early into the game they should at least put it in heroes hideaway or in giant hearth
I am all for games being easier. I don't think its unfair to ask for easy modes and I don't think every game needs to be a knuckle bruising Dark Souls struggle to be enjoyable. But I do wish more developers would offer the choice of a hard and easy mode more often in games. There have been a lot of times I wanted to grab Pokemon Scarlet and Violet, but while I know I could have a lot of fun in competitive battles in the postgame, I feel the game for me at least ends up being such a push over, and sadly kills any real desire I had to try it out. The same is with Pikmin 4, where I really loved the originals, but every time I watch or hear folks play it, the discussion of it being really overwhelmingly easy comes up. Its a frustrating situation for sure.
Another thing not mentioned in this video that takes away from the Waterwraith's fear factor is that Oatchi makes it MUCH easier to outmaneuver it. He won't help you much if you still need to carry something back, but being able to dart past the Wraith instead of needing to run from it makes it even harder for it to actually pose a threat on the chance that it does spawn.
I agree, however Submerged Castle is not one of the hardest caves in Pikmin 2. Maybe tedious, but that doesn’t equal hard. Not to mention, you are given Bulbmin in 2, and while 4 has Glow Pikmin, Bulbmin invalidate the hazards. I just think that Engulfed Castle is just a worse version of, at best, an ok cave.
Bulbmin don't invalidate many of the hazards such as explosives, plus you only get a limited amount of them
Nah man in deathless, submerged castle is easily one of the hardest in the game
You realise you're in the minority on this, right? The general consensus is that Submerged Castle is not only one of the hardest, but THE hardest dungeon in Pikmin 2 which I also agree with. Submerged Castle is commonly seen as the Water Temple or Rusty Bucket Bay of Pikmin 2 basically.
@@tessaPMproi would say its the third hardest. 1. Hole of heroes 2. Dream den 3. Submerged castle
@SuperSireBoyYT I actually find Hole of Heroes to be the easiest of the Wistful Wild dungeons, people only think it's harder than the other two because it has the most floors, yet 3 of them are rest floors while Dream Den only has 1 rest floor.
When I realized Engulf was dumbed down I intentionally waited for the Wraith to come down to start the cave. Also I think the foliage is fine, its moss like which doesn't give the same feeling as other foliage in level designs
I suppose so, I just found it a bit too vibrant
@@ObisStuff I can see how
Why i hate the engulfed castle (wall of text incoming):
You could just go in with one blue and spam glow seeds (by that point, if you're skilled at night, you should have like 70 glow seeds, and NO other cave appeals you to spend them, other than the final cave maybe)
Only appearance of dweevils with bombs (NOT EVEN ACTUAL VOLATILE DWEEVILS, WHY)
Not only the timer is too long, but the dungeons are more compact and have less roadblocks. The average player only has a chance of taking 5 minutes in the second floor. I did it first try and i wasnt even that good (id say some were very close though)
One hazard per floor, really? mix stuff up! It's the only time i wish some floors were slightly random, because well built floors are nice, but random floors with guaranteed parts have their magic too. At least make them BIGGER.
One could argue that smaller floors make the wraith feel more claustrophobic, but when it can LITERALLY get stuck in a corner by itself, who cares?
Feels good to get purples there, yes, but its not that great if its just a lock and key, plus the whole gravitational thing never gets mentioned or used again, other than to explain their aoe damage when thrown (DONT GET ME STARTED ON ONE FELL JUMP)
In this dungeon the whole "jump to the floors you have explored" shines, as you can farm unlimited purples by skipping to the 5th floor after beating it. Whats the purpose of a purple onion then huh? Id rather have my purples give me other pikmin. Just 10 visits are enough for the gold ingot, and takes less than an in game minute.
The third and 4th floor are pretty much just a loop, not even attempting to be complex
Have i mentioned items exist? who cares about hazard specific enemies when you have an op dog and basically unlimited bombs? At least make it so oatchi cant go in without learning how to dive, dangit
As much as I love Pikmin 4, I have to admit that it's probably the easiest Pikmin game to date..... and it pains me how drastically easy they made the Engulfed Castle. Maybe the DLC will be an Ultra-Spicy mode
Imagine if they turn up the enemy ai all the way up to 11
Easiest? 🤨
Have you played Pikmin 3?
U kidding me 3 is the easiest one to date
Items and oatchi rush would need to be nerfed
3 is easier.
They "give away" the surprise because they are trying to trigger people's PTSD. or nostalgia. or whatever you call that
Also, to be fair, the three dweevils in pikmin 2 were replaced by two dweevils, one of which falls from the sky only when you send the castaway through. But also yea it's too easy, I didn't see the waterwraith even once while dandori'ing
I really expected a cave in the post-game that just had 3 waterwraiths or something (but allowed purple pikmin or something). Also I totally expected the "red pikmin only" cave in hero's hideaway to have an invulnerable boss as well. I was disappointed a bit
Hope yall enjoy, I figured it was fine to talk about this by now considering it appears pretty early on and the game has been out for a little while now
Btw: make sure you subscribe, it helps me make more videos like this
In Pikmin 4 the Waterwraith only spawned in my Flarlicless run, and even then it appeared only when I was on the last treasure in the 3rd and 4th Floors, never killing any Pikmin 😭
Though the music slowly creeping in made it absolutely horrifying before I realized just how easy it was to avoid compared to 2
Its crazy how i felt like i was the only one who noticed this for weeeeks. People were trying to gas light so much about nostalgia clouding my head but its legit so dumbed down. Slower wraith, weaker and dumber enemies, player is 10 times more op. The caves a joke
I hate the nostalgia argument because recentcy bias is also a thing
@@ObisStuff Same. I hate how easily nostalgia clouds judgement... Nostalgia is _great_ on its own, but all too often people think inferior things are amazing just because of nostalgia.
Fr I just played through it, and whilst it’s a nice homage, at the same time, it really watered down the original level, not even given the fact it’s obviously not gonna hit the same as the original because of novelty and foresight, all your points I strongly agree with
I will admit, because I was gathering everything, including the enemies, the Wraith showed up a LOT more frequently for me
Genuinely felt like I was losing my mind after seeing everyone raving about the Engulfed Castle, so I'm glad I'm not completely alone in disliking it. It really manages to stand out as being banal in a game I already find barely palatable to begin with.
I encountered it pretty often, I don't know if in every sublevel, but at least almost every sublevel, and I think the reason I encountered it is, because I was really 100% every sublevel really carefully, so I collected every corpse, build everything I could, destroyed every wall or mushroom, and all of that without loosing a single pikmin, so I had to be slow and had to wait for pikmin to finish their task and come back to me, so the waterwraith can't surprise me and kill half of my pikmin. I must say, it's a lot more challenging that the wraith doesn't always target a captain anymore, instead it targets the pikmin, but I could easily cheese everything with Oatchi, because he has so much hp and can even regenerate and has the power of 100 pikmin. Maybe you should have been seperated from Oatchi, like he's directly at the exit with a fence so he can't get out but can logically reach the exit.
Honestly I feel like this is one of the major issues with Pikmin 4 in general: A lot of the bosses and ideas are just recycled from previous games. I mean, it’s clear that they were trying to pay homage to the originals, but I still kind of wish there was more brand new content. Some of the new bosses were extremely creative and fun, such as groovy long legs. But then there’s stuff like the water wraith that got completely nerfed from the original and can’t even live up to what it used to be since it wasn’t designed with this game in mind. I had very few issues in engulfed castle as well, that combined with the water wraiths future appearances in the game (where you can literally just kill it since you already have purple Pikmin) make it much less of a threat and more of just an annoyance than anything.
When two water wraiths spawn in during that final cave, the first thing I should feel is fear, not “wait, can’t I just kill them?”
Sorry for the whole rant but idk it’s my biggest criticism of 4. Great game, just a little too reliant on the past games for ideas.
It’s actually 5m 30s in Pikmin 4. I used a stop watch to test it and was baffled by this choice. Honestly should’ve been like 3-4 mins with how short the levels are.
That was the video i needed thank you and lets hope the engulfed castle gets a Patch where it gets harder
I think they might do a hard mode at some point, or atleast I hope they do
I think there is 2 main things to consider when critically analysing this cave on how it compares to the original and that's nostalgia and skill. Something most veteran pikmin players have. Nostalgia is a powerful feeling and the struggle of being a kid and not being prepared for the wraith made it scarier. Consider also new players aren't as effective at dandori we dealt the same things as kids. Veteran players who have replayed the original and played pikmin outside of that will naturally have an easier time with the wraith. Even new adult players of pikmin can beat the submerged castle with a few strategic resets without having to go through it again.
Seeing also how faithfully recreated the cave was with the engulfed castle. I do not see anyone who have played pikmin 2 more than once to struggle with this cave end result may vary but a kid or unprepared newcommer to pikmin who only started playing after 4 yee, I can see them struggle with this cave as well. The enemies and obstacles aren't the same but non of them are neccesarily less distracting and time consuming than in the original.
i was so excited to go back into the submerged castle..
i was so dissapointed that i missed the entire wraith (and happy)
Your channel is very underrated!
Thank you!
I do wish that the water wraith did have better A.I when i first seen him i thought i wasn't gonna be able to clear the engulfed castle because of the wraith but it felt like he didn't do any homing at all on the captain, he was more of just an obstacle to avoid than an enemy trying to hunt you
This made me remember something i heard once in pikmin 4 the pikmin themselves are at there smartest meanwhile the enemys are at there dumbest
The problem is something Nintendo is slowly doing to all their games in the last years, making things easier and less challenging.
I really think the rewind button is cheaty, especially since it takes you back to the base. I remember in the demo that I tried to bring some treasures to the base I thought will be complete before sunset which didn't work so I rewinded the time so that I will catch all the pikmin who won't get to the base in time. Only to see that I respawn at the base despite not being there at the time the rewind took me to and all the pikmin carrying stuff were there too, even those who did get their treasure to the base
I would have enjoyed it if they made another form of the waterwraith as if it evolved somehow.
HMMMM, NOW WHERE HAVE WE SEEN THAT BEFORE?
@Nic_2751 I mean yeah the plasma wraith but I'm talking about another variation that's secret. Like an optional thing.
I like the little bulbmin reference with the dwarf albino bulborbs with the regular bulborb on the second sub level
I think there are at least 2 things the Engulfed Castle does better:
1) Water Wraith spawns faster than in 2.
2) For most players, this will be their first time meeting purples, so essentially the introduction to purple pikmin is beating the absolute crap of an invincible interdimentional being, which is just cool af.
I feel like pikmin4 was really for new players that didn t played Old entries tbh sumbmerged in 2 was better but I imagine new player entering this Cave and actually be having a good time
Like my friend who pikmin4 was first one he Just knew some basic things about the game but when he entered engulfed castle he was kinda shocked/ stressed i think he had a great time so yea its not like in pik2 but atleast new players can experience it
While the engulfed castle doesn't quite live up to what the submerged castle was, I still think it's kinda neat. The way the original theme slowly builds up over time and the introduction of the purple pikmin work well. It's also the only good way that I can think of to introduce the water wraith to the game/enemies list.
It just wouldn't fit as well if it were another cave, especially if you were able to bring any pikmin type in. It has it's downsides, and it may not be all that great for long-time (and partially new) fans, but I think it did it's job and part decently well.
the waterwraith came on every single level I was on. the puzzles take a while.
i kinda agree, its good for what it is but could be better. something id add to this is the kinda lonely and desolate feel the original had, outside the ships ramblings when the wraith appears in 2 at the first time, its complete and utter silence. no dialogue, just you trying to get through against this enemy that can absolutely destroy your squad if your not careful. in 4, with collin and sheperd being with you at all times, that desolate and lonely feel doesnt exist because theyre constantly talking to you while you do stuff, making it feel not as desolate because of it. plus, oatchi, while i love their inclusion in 4, was not built for the water wraith due to just having all your pikmin on their back and not feeling as scattered as 2. great video! really enjoyed it!
I dunno, considering the game has it's whole Dandori thing going on it makes perfect sense to me to have this menace turn up super late, granted I'd also add a second one that turns up if you're too fast simply because I think it would be funny especially if the end is designed around being forced to backtrack far enough that you risk the first one turning up and potentially getting sandwiched :b
i think what could've been cool is like if the waterwraith actually went faster when rolling through water. given how its mostly the same layout with the water patches on the ground it could have really helped to add a new threat given oatchi goes pretty fast anyway
man the chuggaconroy seen got me
I beat engulfed castle without the wraith spawning first try and i did not even know
I only knew because the game spoils it lol
w for using the iconic chuggaaconroy clip
It's necessary when talking about Submerged
I for one just wish that it wasn’t mostly just a copy of the cave from pikmin 2. I get they wanted to pick the nostalgia returning players and have new ones properly experience what it was like, but the 2nd game is switch so their not going to be deprived of experiencing the original cave and the overall design while slightly altered just makes it more predictable plus I did feel the difficulty was somewhat nerfed and oatchi made it too easy to just walk past the wraith when needed. Overall not against the return just wished it more original execution.
I Wanna Make a Mod for Pikmin 4 That Makes it Harder, Especially Those Who Like Challenges. Cuz One Complaint I Have is That the Game is Just to Easy. I Never Died ONCE.
Luckily modding for Pikmin 4 is progressing pretty fast, we might not have to wait super long
@@ObisStuff Thats Nice. Now I Gotta Figure Out How to Mod a Switch With a Chromebook
I forgot about dirigibugs. I really like them. People complain a lot about bombs but I like 'em when you can see 'em coming & that enemy's function ensures that you can see 'em coming. Also, yeah, it's really dumb that they reused exact rooms from Submerged Castle. It's more redundant & disappointing than nostalgic.
I wonder what DLC they will add
Maybe a difficulty mode
Hopefully
Maybe it needed more volatile dweevils…
You're right, the Engulfed Castle really doesn't measure up to the original. It needed to be A LOT harder and more unforgiving as that would've made it scarier.
The music was actually supposed to be like that in the submerged castle but a bug caused submerged castle to always play instead of mystic marsh building into submerged castle
I played pikmin 4 and 2 for the first time at the same time and i found both to be on very similar difficulty level, obviously 4’s is harder due to lack of the relentless falling bombs and such, but i think they probably designed it so it would be easier but also be enjoyable for people who don’t like caves. I mean i find a lot of the traps and just cruel bs 2 throws at you to be really funny (when i got to that one submerged castle sublevel that just hurdles bombs at you i found it hilarious) but many who aren’t fans of pikmin 2 would say that its a bit too unfair and cruel to the point of being unenjoyable. Something that definitely isn’t as commonplace in nintendo’s games these days. Personally, i think the engulfed castle is a more balanced and “for all groups” take on the original that still isn’t necessarily a walk in the park for new or rusty players (not to mention that if engulfed was the only one thats pikmin 2 level difficulty it would be bad design in my eyes because of the difficulty of the rest of p4, and if everything was raised to that level it would go against what the games going for, so i suppose this would be solved in a hard mode or new game plus super hard mode) plus if theres one area where p4 lacks originality, it’s definitely not the caves, so i think one purely nostalgia cave is perfectly fine (obviously the bulbax kingdom room exists but i’m talking the entire cave)
Ngl I feel like one of the couple people who like engulfed castle since it was a nice homage to the infamous submerged castle from the second game
3:41 the best music in the history of music playing in a video essay? It can't be!
A cool cave simply for callbacks sake, but its as if the Pilmin 4 devs were jangling keys infront of OG Pikmin 2 players like "hey remeber these? You loved these 20 years ago!" while forgettting why you liked them 20 years ago in the first place, so you're just like "hah yeah thats cool i remember that" lol
Should've been made harder and saved for the post credits story like you said, aka where the real game begins
when I first played through pikmin 2, I thought the wraith was gonna be bigger threat than it actually was. I went through the whole cave without seeing the wraith once. so point of the engulfed castle not having the wraith spawn once can also apply to pikmin 2, not just pikmin 4.
Agreed. Even in Pikmin 2 the submerged castle was too easy. You could avoid him entirely with 100 pikmin with you just by swarming in the corners.
haven't watched the video yet so idk if you mentioned it but I think there should've been a bigger emphasis on bars oachi couldn't pass, cause what makes engulfed easier is riding oachi
Yeah I think Pikmin 4 is a little too handholdy. They could've made it easier just with the quality of life improvements and stopped there. I don't feel like I'm exploring discovering things when I'm just told the answers by unskippable dialogue and intrusive meta game screenshots. If I want a guide with that I'll look it up. I liked the pikalopeda being your only insight to things and being optional to even look at.
Smth abt the dweavals in the 2nd floor is that there r 2
(I would know cuz after killing one not knowing abt the other i lost pikmin to it while tryna multi task also idk how to spell dweaval feel free to correct me lol)
I also went through the cave without encountering the wraith. I mainly went there because i knew it guaranteed purples and i'm glad purples are basically presented as a reward for the cave, but it should have been challenging to be more satisfying. Purples are the most OP type in the game so it shouldn't have been handed down so eaily. At least there was a better purple related reward in a much better cave.
If i could have made the game i would remade the thing to reduce the timer because less ennemy but add explosive hazzard with less bomb and every annoying ennemy with elelctricity don't os because it still kills pikmin
My point is adding bulbmin in this cave and seperate volatile dweevil and normal dweevil make the snitchbug not able to grab captain because pikmin 3 didn't happened and they leaarn that in pikmin 3 adding back swarmming sheargrub and add a new cave in base camp where you can take all pikmin and when you finish it a new cave unlock and finishing that cave unlock a tree and a muddy area and finishing this unlock the bonus story the wraith of plasma attack (adding pikmin 3 bosses lol)
And finishing bonus story unlock glow pikmin in the day
I think there's a very thick line of nostalgia and expertise at play here. Yea, stupid that they spoil it. Yeah stuff is generally too easy.
But I went in knowing about the time limit and such. So I was rushing. Still took 4:30 for one of the floors.
The AI is definitely better. But also I would say Wraith is fair now. Before you were better off giving up on the floor because he was relentless.
Finally... Submerged Castle is area 2. The real meat of Impact Site is behind a water hazard, which is behind Yellows in Perplexing pool. Sure that means at minimum day 6, but it's hardly late game like the 4th area. You're probably more likely to find this before checking the rest of Impact Site.
Overall I definitely put this game below 2, but even in 2 I clear before it spawns. Experience means a lot.
It didn’t show up for me either. I was confused and disappointed.
Another reason for teh engulfed castle being worse is cause oatchi makes the engulfed castle a lot easier cause oatchi is able to be immune to all the elements so the element hazard isn’t even a problem
it definitely doesn't have the same magic as the og and is for sure easier especially considering oatchi, but during my first playthrough of 4 i did encounter the wraith on all sublevels, so idk what youre talking about there. sublevel 4 was also pretty hard for me because the startle spore caused some problems. maybe i just suck at video games
another thing that's bad is that they put TWO water wraiths in the final cave.
Yeah and i have a freakout moment when there’s two of them in that final cave of the game
...why is it bad exactly?
in my playthrough, the wraith showed up ONCE on the 4th sublevel. he didn't even kill a single pikmin. i feel like the difficulty in pikmin 2 is what added to the satisfaction of the waterwraith fight, but in 4... you barely even see him to get any satisfaction.
Breadbugs did appear…
I think the whole game is smoother and easier in difficulty...
In what I've been playing this game I've only lost less than a dozen Pikmin, and I'm in the third area!
(100% in the first 2)
I really like this game, but I think that the slightly scary and wild atmosphere of the first 2 games is already over, Pikmin 4 has no soul, just fun gameplay... I can say that I liked that cave, because I didn't believe that Nintendo dared to add such a terrifying enemy (they nerfed him, he no longer growls like he did in Pikmin 2), but it still feels very soft.
I really wish the old Nintendo would come back.
If you complete engulfed castle to the final level without seeing the wraith you get special dialogue from Collin.
Tbh the submerged castle only spooked me when watching people play it or when i first played it. If anything i like the engulfed castle as a concept of the gimick returning. I just wish they stuck a new spin on it like instead of blues it was reds. Name would make sense as the cave would be engulfed in flames
This video is facts...
I feel like a submerged castle like cave with white or winged pikmin would have been cooler
I dont think you're fair to the Engulfed Castle, its not designed to be the Lategame Challenge Hellhole that the Submerged Castle was. Its a faithful remake, but its designed for a different purpose. Its uses the Wraith's fearfactor (and reputation, I have friends that dont play Pikmin/Nintendo but still know about the Wraith) as a way to push the player to multitask, its a Dandori test with dangerous consequences (especially for new players) should you not be fast enough. It comes halfway into the third area, where the multitasking and planning really start to become important, and the Engulfed Castle is right there to test you on this.
You're absolutely right that its difficulty is substantially lower, the whole game is easier, but that is by design. Its not used as that brutal lategame cave this time around, and that is fine. It has a new purpose and things it teaches, its just not one that us veterans needed to be taught and so it might not resonate with you. Just because our nostalgia sees the wraith and its cave as this superhard challenge doesn't mean it has be used that way
The many issues there is:
- The game spoils the waterwraith before you even enter the cave.
- the cave itself is too short, making me think that oatchi also has not to enter the cave to make it harder
- cave appears early
- we can see where the waterwraith spawns
- the waterwraith is slow and slow ai
- lack of annoying enemies
So the cave doesn’t just punish you if the waterwraith spawns, it completely mocks your lack of skills. Maybe if the engufled castle entrance was to the faucet of hero’s hideway, it would have been acceptable.
on top of everything else i feel like it comes down to the sound design too. the original music is droning the whole time, and the noises the water wraith makes are otherworldly and upsetting. in 4, they just have the normal cave music slowly fade into the original music with no further elaboration on it, which combines badly with how much faster the player can complete subfloors, and the noises the wraith makes are just. the most nothing boring noises. something new building off the same concept later in the game would've been a lot cooler, like maybe one of the metal caverns with a creepy flying enemy that fit the same sort of niche, made almost entirely unavoidable by the open floors.
Small explanation, they didn’t want to scare us again
It may be easy, but it was scary trying to move the castaway as the water wraith chased my blues on the way to the base (this is my first pikmin game so my opinion is invalid lol)
It's nice to get a new players perspective actually
Though I enjoyed the Engulfed Castle a lot more than you did, you made a lot of good points in this video. But the one thing that I absolutely agree with the most is that I would have preferred them to just do something new that is _similar_ to the Submerged Castle instead of just remaking the cave.
One of the reasons (but not the main one) why Pikmin 2 is my least favorite Pikmin game is because of the lack of urgency. Time does not matter at all in this game and there is hardly ever any point in being efficient, which is the number one thing that makes Pikmin fun for me. But the Submerged Castle was the saving grace. You actually have a reason to be fast in this cave because if you take too long, You-Know-Who is gonna show up. Unfortunately, this is like, the ONLY point in the entire game at which efficiency matters, which is why it ended up being the highlight of the game for me.
When I found the Engulfed Castle in Pikmin 4, it made me hopeful that there would be more caves throughout the game that have a unique gimmick that encourages the player to work efficiently. That uh… that didn’t happen. Engulfed Castle is pretty much the only cave that encourages time management. And not ONLY that, but the Engulfed Castle isn’t even a new cave. It’s just a remake of the Submerged Castle with a few changes here and there. And while I do think the way they integrated toggling the iron bars in one of the deeper sublevels was clever and interesting, I was pretty disappointed that this cave is more or less the Submerged Castle again.
And I know that a good number of the caves in this game have had interesting gimmicks within. The caves have been great as a whole, and they’re a HUGE step up from Pikmin 2’s caves for being more creative and better designed as a whole. But they still deviate from what I want from a Pikmin game: an actual REASON to play efficiently. Pikmin 4 does encourage efficiency _sometimes,_ like in the Dandori challenges and in Olimar’s Shipwreck Tale, and that is a step in the right direction. But the main meat of the game is severely lacking in giving me any desire to be efficient, and the lack of caves in which time actually matters only adds to the problem.
Most Pikmin 4 players are returning players though, and most likely already have experience with the Submerged Castle so of course it’s going to seem easier to a veteran player like yourself. However, there’s still plenty of people who’s first Pikmin game is or will be 4, so they won’t have that knowledge beforehand unless they’ve looked it up.
I’m seeing lots of criticism in these comments, but I’m surprised I haven’t seen anyone mention how Oatchi makes this place an absolute joke. Part of the difficulty in Pikmin 2 was how all of your blues are spread out and slower than you, which complements the bomb rocks and wraith itself. When you can just invalidate that by having Oatchi keep every Pikmin together, it’s not a good look. I think for this dungeon, we should have lost access to Oatchi for the duration of the cave, not gotten a picture or log for the dungeon prior to entering, and perhaps shorten the wraith’s timer from 5 minutes to 4 minutes. Veterans will know what’s about to happen from the cave’s name, have their fears confirmed by the music and layout, and start rushing to complete the cave as fast as possible. Newcomers will have the same feeling the Submerged Castle gave kids 19 years ago, and won’t forget it. You mentioned that the cave appears too early in the game, so I’ll also say that the cave should be in the massive underwater area of the Serene Shores to make it more “final.” I don’t really like where they put the cave in the finished game, it’s too plain. Heck, having it over there under the water could even give an in-universe explanation to not have Oatchi with you.
I to this this day can't get passed the 3rd or 4th level of submerged castle without the wraith spawning in, Engulfed Castle I dmade through without ever seeing the wraith, so I waited on the 4th floor until it arrived to make sure that it still showed up, and yeah generally lees Creepy than Pikmin 2, very disappointed, then the wraith shows up in the final cave not even remotely creepy sub level and I already have Purple Pikmin. Pikmin 4 did the Water Wraith dirty, I'm not sure if new player will even understand why people revered the water wraith over the plasm wraith
Imo it didn't need difficultly to be submerged, it need atmosphere, cause imma be honest I think the only reason its hard for players is because most of them forget or tend to not realize that they can cheese it by having the water wraith go after the captain its locked onto go into a place where the captain is safe, so back to my point, the atmosphere, the fact there's little to no enemies and the submerged castle theme slowly creeping in the closer the waterwraith is to spawning, it's nerve-wracking the first time you go through it. For me it nearly gave me a panic attack(and btw I never had a panic attack in my entire life until that point) the only thing preventing me from going on a full panic attack was using the home button to make the music stop