Sorry to say that long-term you WILL be paying tax, coz the end of petrol cars will mean a huge hole in the tax income to the exchequer if they don't find a way to replace it. It might be based on what your EVSE puts into your car. Frankly, it'd probably be easier and cheaper to just charge you a rate based on your annual milage, but when has our government ever done anything the cheap and easy way?
@@ChrisComley. Yes, road pricing is coming. Probably based on annual mileage and/or motorway tolls. ICE drivers will also probably have to pay this too, however.
Can’t see it happening soon. There’s 300+ new homes being built in my town. None have parking right next to the individual buildings, no charge point in evidence, no heat pumps, no PV on roofs, no solar heating panels. The government can spout all they like on eco technologies and energy saving measures. But there’s no will to enforce and even less available money to enable builders and or homeowners to accomplish proposals.
Exactly. Will Boris implement some sort of scheme whereby there's a Hodges the Air Raid Warden type character, going round to see whether anyone is using a granny cable? The whole notion is frankly ludicrous.
Thanks for the heads up. Ordering a granny cable as I bought an ev to avoid being milked for every mile driven. Honestly is £8k vat on purchasing the car not enough for gov? How much more do they want?
They want your blood, your prays, your first born, your bank balance with interest for not having handed it over at time of birth, your left shoe on Mon, Wed and Fri, your right shoe on weekends and all the sprouts you can grow.
Is that not enough? What a very strange question. No, it clearly isn't. There's never enough, there's only how much they think they can get away with. At the moment more than ever coz of the massive bills to be paid for brexit and covid.
I have a 32a commando socket inside my garage and a Tesla UMC that dumb charges my car just fine. I'll buy a spare one and carry on doing that for as long as I can. 😀
@@FFVoyager I doubt this will affect granny charging if you want to start immediately; however, if you have a charge schedule set in your Tesla to, e.g. 2 a.m., I think what Nick is suggesting is, there may be a change to the government legislation that encourages car manufacturers to start the charge a random number of minutes and seconds after the time you've set. So, if you update your Tesla software as most drivers do, you would get this "grid protection when scheduled charging" functionality for free anyway.
There are a lot of legacy chargers out there. Unless the government plan to visit homes in the late evening/middle of the night to see what chargers are operating (without transmitting their details to the government!) then everyone will continue to buy chargers that don't have these restrictions. In fact, it will *encourage* people to buy non approved chargers, and the removal of the OLEV scheme subsidy for home chargers has removed the main method of standardising home chargers. As far as I am aware, neither of our two home chargers will be able to be controlled by a central body as is proposed - and additional issues are caused by how our two EVs charged. Neither of our two cars can be properly set only to charge within certain times. This is government completely failing to understand the current limitations & non-standardisation of technology in both EV vehicles and chargers. (As an aside, we mainly use an Ohme cable to set charging during Octopus Go hours - and this would meet government standards - as long as the mobile network is working OK, as it relies on that for Internet connection. But this was an expensive add-ons)
Exactly. And what of those whom have large amounts of battery storage available, and may choose to use it to charge an EV? How can, or even why, should the Government tax that?
I charge from my solar panels during the day whenever I can. We are childminders too also we are 4 adults who all work from home…. and use power during the day. I therefore don’t want to change tariff because it makes daytime electricity cost more? Am I wrong? Ovo seem to be still offering 5p rate at off peak? Maybe I should change, but I haven’t reached that conclusion yet.
Some good points a few odd bits, At 5:17 you incorrectly state that the overnight charge rate is 5p, having previously correctly said 7.5p. The theory about international cyber terrorism surely falls down as switching on a charger does nothing if there is not a car plugged in to consume the electricity. Increasing the At home VAT rate from 5p to 20p will be far more costly than the "car tax" so let's not give them any ideas. It's hardly a fair tax unless everyone home charging is paying the same and without all non smart chargers removed that would not be the case. It also will not encourage EV adoption, so I think that is a way off yet
Overnight charging at 4.5p per kwh is *still* available if you know where to look...... And increasing the VAT rate to 20% on electricity used by homes will be tantamount to political suicide at the next election after it happens....... It would also push millions more people into fuel poverty, and probably kill hundreds of home-based businesses too.....
The smart function on my charger has failed, it’s out of warranty and I use the cars timer to set low cost overnight charging ……… am I going to get it fixed 🤔 Yea right
You say at the end of your video that metering the car charge separately and charging 20% VAT on it is a way of charging per mile. I think that is incorrect - it is a charge per kWh which means inefficient EV's pay more than efficient ones - a much fairer idea.
I do like the idea of charging more for “thirsty” cars, that need more kWh/mile. I think it is proper and fair to require owners of typically larger and more luxurious vehicles to pay more than owners of small hatchbacks. The larger heavier cars also do more damage to the roads.
You say that non smart charge points will be illegal. What about legacy charge points? I am not about to spend out on a smart charge point when mine works.
Copied from the new legislation; "These Regulations do not apply to- (a) the sale of a charge point before 30th June 2022" so there is no issue for legacy chargers.
Nick, Thanks for this informative video on proposed legislation. I live in the US, but changes like this UK law are likely to be replicated elsewhere as EV sales grow. I like the idea of defaulting to not charge during peak times, with manual override when needed. I also like the randomization of start times. However, I really don’t like outlawing “dumb” granny leads. They are low power, limiting their impact on the grid, and I would like all EV drivers to have this option available to them when wanted or needed. There are way more standard household plugs than EV charge points. As for the possible kWh tax for EVs in the future, my first reaction was negative, but there will need to be some way to collect road tax. Currently I pay $150/year extra per year for EV license plates to account for state gas tax, but nothing for federal gas tax. A fixed annual fee is not ideal, since heavy road users and people with very limited road use pay the same. Maybe “smart” granny leads could be practical and affordable in the future, if made in high volume and supplied with every EV sold? Thanks again for your content, I always enjoy your videos.
Taxing by the mile is not fair to those of us in rural areas where we have to travel a lot. What happens with the charging from my battery and solar panels that goes through my Zappi - would that be taxed too.
What about people who have solar panels and charge when the sun shines rather than the grid? I also have a battery which is fed by the solar panels. Quite a bit goes back into the grid and we are not receiving an increase in our electricity going into the grid. Commercial chargers are needed for low range ev's as you travel. What is a Granny charger? I have a waterproof proper charger (£200) and BMW have 3 levels of charge and check that the connection is good. On AC they only allow a max of 10 amps but I can use fast charging for dc.
@@NicolasRaimo smart sounds good and dumb sounds bad. But actually dumb means a so called charger or granny cable is a simple communication box between the AC charger (located in the EV) and an AC socket. So dumb in this case means, it’s doing it’s provided task and not anything on top.
You don't want to be exporting back to the grid if you can possibly help it. They pay you a relative pittance for each kw you supply to the grid, then they sell it on for 30p (or more) per kwh to someone else......
Nick great videos. Have you done any videos or have and recommendations for EV chargers in a house share or HMO environment? So the landlord can bill the user of the EV charger. How would a EV charger differentiate between the different vehicles being charged?
its quite complex as they'd need to Bill for electric which is a service... There is sytems that can do it thou which I've reviewed one method would be using RFID logins with Easee
Smart meters are causing problems in areas of poor mobile reception. They would have to ensure that everyone in the UK has access to adequate coverage to remote and poorly covered areas.
What about existing chargers? I have 2 vehicles with granny leads which I use occasionally and a dumb wall charger which I fitted a timer to take advantage of Octopus Go. Will I need to change it all?
Hmm.. to me it doesn't make sense for legislation to force out Granny cables by making them become "smart", especially because the draw is relatively low. Isn't it better to have some ev owners charging slower over a longer period for grid balancing rather than everyone having a higher draw smart charger?
Thanks for this heads up. If the government is going to legislate In this area perhaps they should be legislating on V2H as well. If all chargers were bidirectional, EVs could be used to reduce the need for base load power plants. This innovation is already operational in the Netherlands.
Why should someone with solar have to pay tax on their own energy generation. The charger to then need to connect to the owners elec meter to check whats being imported. Not going to happen. Far easier to log mileage in the car surely. Then it can be double checked at mot time.
Scaremongering? The regs seem to exclude granny chargers "Application 3.-(1) Subject to paragraph (2), these Regulations apply to charge points(1) which are intended to be used for charging cars, vans or both of them, other than- (a)non-smart cables; ... (3) In this regulation- ... (b)“non-smart cable” means an electrical cable which is a charge point but which is not able to send and receive information;" A granny charger sounds like a "non-smart cable" to me and therefor these regs do not apply
A relevant charge point has smart functionality if- (a)it is able to send and receive information via a communications network; (b)it is able to respond to signals or other information received by it by- (i)increasing or decreasing the rate of electricity flowing through the charge point; (ii)changing the time at which electricity flows through the charge point; (c)it is capable of using the functionality referred to in sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) to provide demand side response services, including response DSR services; and (d)at least one user interface, which enables the charge point to be operated in accordance with these Regulations, is incorporated in the charge point or otherwise made available to the owner. mode 2 is able to send and recieve information with the car, so earlier clause applies and it becomes 'relevant'
Sorry just abit of clarification at 10:15 you say that they could switch all the chargers on at the same time to "knock out the national grid". Although in theory it could cause some disruption it wouldn't take out the national grid. Its designed to load shed if the frequency drops within certain tolerances (48.8hz in the uk) You would ultimately end up with customers cut off but the grid would still be relatively stable and function as designed.
Hi Nick, yes my Octo tariff automatically allocates up to three charge slots over the small hours of the morning, depending on national grid demand, to make the most efficient use of power generated at times when other demand is low. I'm very happy with that, it makes logical sense.
10 years ago I installed PVs when there was a generous FIT scheme. It was only in the last 2 years that I have been in a position to measure the amount of PV energy we actually use and I was shocked at how small a proportion we were using (c25% a year). I have recently acquired an EV and installed a smart charger which enables me to make use of zero cost PV power during the summer and cheaper offpeak electricity during the winter. I am also looking at installing a heat pump and thermal store to make use of the PV power and off peak electricity for central heating. At the moment we are on an oil based heating system and I estlimate that energy equivalent of heating far exceeds what we will use for the EV and our other power needs. If our government is serious about zero carbon then it is going to have to take serious steps to smooth demand from the grid which will presumably get trickier as solar and wind power is ramped up in coming years. As I understand it the cheap rate tariffs that companies such as Octopus are offering are being done at a loss. My assumption is that for me to economically switch to electric power is dependent on being able to exploit off peak rates. For this to happen it seems to me that there needs to be regulatory changes to enable the pricing fluctuations that occur in the wholesale market to feed through to the consumer. I would be interested in any comments you may have
I too have solar but unlike you my fit payments were among the last and lowest. I do have an EV and have also invested in two powerwall’s they are expensive but for us the return on investment was greater than bank savings. I live in a new build semi detached house and I’m considering changing the gas boiler for an electric one that could mostly run on cheap rate OctopusEnergy. The reason I’m not keen on an Air source heat pump is the major disruption to our house coupled with cost. Getting rid of gas would be a saving of £100 standing charge and electric is 100% efficient compared to a possible 85-90 with gas. I’ve yet to test out my costings running on electric but I think there won’t be that huge a difference providing I can stay within the storage of the Powerwall total of 27 kwh. as I should burn less kWh of electricity compared to gas due to the higher efficiency.
What is your location Bryan only your, PV 's seem very efficient or you have a great number? in my location a panel would be doing well to produce 200wh. Am I correct in assuming your EV motor is around 25kw? Do you run aircon/heating in your home?
@@sarahclark5447 I live on the Devon / Cornwall border and we are unusual in having 3 phase supply with a total of 47x 250 watt panels installed between 2011-2014. They generate around 12000kwhs/annum
@@bryanlewens2068 most homes found on the streets have 1 of the 3 phases if you were to find where the street houses start using the second phase, the measure between L1 and L2 would be 415 volts. industry uses 3-phase power which makes motor design simple. Your EV would use 3-phase power, but your batteries are obviously DC so an invertor would change the battery voltage to Poly phase, when you do the conversion, losses occur. That is a lot of outlay considering you can't boil a kettle after dark. it's very unlikely your panels would produce 250 watts. Maybe on a particularly good day for an hour or so. You do live in an ideal spot too, most homes may be able to mount 6 panels on a roof the roof may not be ideally facing. if you have the money and location go for it but it's not a solution it's more a gimic. are you aware your panel lose about 15% efficiency in the first 3 months? they do not know why at the moment, it isn't due to dust buildup. It's something to do with the chemistry. if you have room for 47 panels consider selling them and use the sun to grow food as food shortages are on the way. How much do you get for feed-in? You are surely not consuming 32kw/day. I live with my dad because I'm still at school and we consume 5kw day at 32p/kw + 70P standing charge but that 70p standing charge is for the gas too. our fridge Freezer is are biggest load 2kw a day. my dad did consider solar panels but I persuaded him to spend his money marrying me off as that will be the biggest saving. what we need to do is get rid of all the do-it-yourself power stations and go nuclear which will give everyone cheap power. some of the elderly won't be able to afford the cost of energy next winter. the poor dears have been funding silly wind turbines because Boris has forgotten he isn't supposed to be a far-left commie.
Sarah. Thanks for your comments and I will enlarge. I am a retired farmer and the panels are all ground mounted on a concrete area near the house. I built the house in the early 1970s when we were going through an energy crisis with very high oil prices. We were unsure what sort of heating system to install so we went with the least cost to install which were storage heaters on economy 7 tariff. I think we had 3 phase supply for the farm and so 3 phase was used to cope with the heating system. It didn’t work very well and so went to oil a few years later. We have done quite a lot to improve the insulation of the house and are now considering a heat pump to heat the house. When we installed the PVs we were incentivised by Feed On Tariffs (FITS) which was paid on every KWh we generated. For a few years the value of the power itself was not fully appreciated because we only had a generation meter which didn’t tell us how much we were using. By installing export meters we now know how little of what we were generating was actually being used here. Most of it was going back to the grid. We have installed a heat store to capture some of the PV output as does the EV. We are planning to put in a heat pump and more heat storage to make use of PV energy and off peak power in winter. I think we need to have as flexible a system as possible to cope with some uncertain times ahead. Not sure I agree with you about nuclear although I think more should have been done to prolong the life of the capacity in place. Nuclear has massive upfront costs and long lead times. PVs and wind are potentially much cheaper and quicker to install but clearly energy storage on a large scale will be required. New developments could change things but the future will be interesting.
I can understand the desire to move most EV home charging to overnight for load demand reasons. But a better way would be to make it much more financially favourable. But the way they greatly increase normal day rates as they offer cheap overnight does not work for most people. And contrary to your assertion - I am not insane. Just capable of operating a calculator. And trust me, if I went for a split tariff it would cost me a lot more overall than a standard 24/7 tariff. It would only work for me if I drove 150 miles daily and also set the dishwasher, and clothes washer overnight as well. People should take care if they were to accept your urging to go for a split tariff because quite often it is certainly not what they should be doing.
I quite agree. Split tariffs can only work for very specific user cases. If people work at home, don't have dishwashers and tumble dryers and drive efficient EVs the cost of these tariffs can be considerably more expensive!
I'm on a split tariff with Octopus go and my day rate (29.8p) is no more expensive than a standard tariff but my night rate is 7.5p. The old style ecomony 7 tariffs were bad at upping the day rate to punish you, but most modern time of use tariffs seem to be much more fair. If you have an electric car you will definately save money moving to octopus go.
@@1981therealfury but that tariff is not available now and I bet when you got it standard rates were probably about 21p or less. As the OP said we're all capable of calculating so no one needs to generalise for us and then call us names. Each to their own
You looking at eco7? Octopus go peak price till recently was same as 24/7 deal, and even now it’s only a tad higher at 35p, try the spreadsheet on my site, it benefits everyone who has an EV unless your doing only like 2000 miles a year but then I’d agree you don’t need a care
@@joekupa @Joe C my octopus go tariff started on 20th May.... Not sure what prices are now, but pretty sure their standard tariff was the exact same day rate as this tariff at the time. Not calling anyone names, just calling out that not all time. Of use tariffs are equil.
Looking to switch one of our cars to an EV within the next 12 months and finding your content really informative, thank you. Clearly the government will need to be able to tax EV's so I'm sure measures like those discussed here will come in fairly soon.
The taxation element will transition from the fuel itself to actual road usage. Because that would cover even those whom manage to charge their electric car up for free, using their own solar panels etc.....
For the exchequer to get the equivalent in tax from electric as they do from petrol/ diesel the tax per kilowatt of home charging would need to be a lot more than 20%. What’s more exchequer would also need to start road taxing EVs in the same way as ICE cars. Mark my words it will happen as more of us switch to EVs.
How would they know the difference between charging your car at 8 amps and using a two bar electric fire consuming 8 amps in the winter? Fixed chargers are OK if you can find an installer who doesn't want to rip you off like most of them do, like we need another £500 before we install a charger even though you have paid money already.
Interesting ideas here, but would turning on all plugged in granny’s really bring the grid down? I don’t think so, how many would actually be plugged in at any one time for example. Taxing home charge points in some ways can be done but everyone would need a smart charger. It wouldn’t be fare for some to pay 20% and others not. The easiest way would be to pay an amount dependent on the mileage driven per year.
This. If they want to move to a tax by miles driven, recording the odometer as part of the MOT would seem like the logical place to do it. Rather than the overcomplicated make everything smart and secure.
The problem is off peak charges is they are based on there not being a lot of demand, if they have to turn on more power stations then the costs will go up as now there is a demand. If the grid has to run with longer demand then OFF PEAK may become a thing of the past. At what point wil they have to start to limit the number of cars you can have in your viliage as they are not going to upgrade the overhead cables anytime soon. There is a problem with the chargers as a lot of the cars have the charger built-in and the wall connector is only a device that switches the mains to the cable, and tells the car how much power it can take from it. it is not hard to build your own connector system, so the only way they would know your charging a car is by the amount of power you are consuming.
Setting a voltage threshold would be more accurate than any kind of over the air communication. It would also be impossible to hack it, because it would be analogue in nature, no computer code what so ever. The idea is very simple. When the grid is burdened, the voltage drops. When the other loads drop off, the grid voltage comes back up. The charge controller can then resume charging. Such a system would work perfectly with renewable energy, because as the wind kicks up, the turbines will raise line voltage, allowing cars to charge, directly from the turbines. The same holds true for grid tied photovoltaic (solar) panels.
South Australia has already made control of solar pv inverters part of the legislation. This means they can curtail solar output when there is too much supply (sort of the opposite problem to EV chargers). Most states here look like they will follow suite and I can see a time when this combined with smart chargers will mean excess solar is diverted to plugged in EVs. Making it bi-directional is the next step in the puzzle, but for V2G the hardware is a lot more expensive (except for certain vehicles that already have inverters onboard eg Ioniq and EV6). If they can tick all those boxes we will be able to do away with much of the existing peaking infrastructure and still keep grid stability.
Alot of solar inverters already have voltage response built into them in the UK. Sometimes on a sunny day your inverter will switch off if the voltage starts creeping up to unacceptable levels. Very frustrating when your PV install stops exporting because its a summers day and everyone is at work so their is very little load in the local area.
It will happen for sure, how, when your car is service an update to the software will stop the granny cable. ☹️ as for solar don’t be fooled they can sort that one with software in the charge point, there’ll be no escape. ☹️
That would be a breach of contract relating to purchase of your vehicle. They could bring it in with new vehicles post a new law but not backdate a sales contract as this would lead to a free for all in litigation.
Funny how people were talking about this a few years ago, but some people denied this would ever happen! I got rid of my BMW i3S last year, when I found out my new home couldn’t have a 7kw home charger.
God! The UK is a real pain in the ass! My cousins have been telling me for years …. But lord! Some make sense but ugh, it’s not as stupid as Brexit but….
I think problem with grid is not enough storage capacity. With my home battery doent have surge problems. Easy I store power for later if needed. Good day had 7.5 kWh into car from solar + water heated and power to house. Did read that grid had to switch of wind due to no way of storing power. Think it was £500000000 lost.
The tax lost to the exchequer will need to be replaced by something, from somewhere. The present simplest method is to tax the fuel (electricity) used to charge EV's, Some states in the USA have already decided and implemented annual taxes based on the increased weight of EV's. Lots of people are going to be caught out when EV fuel suddenly become taxable to replace the lost petroleum taxes levied on road fuel.
Well they seem to be quite adept at organising parties and pi$$ ups...... Although their skills and talents at organising anything else seem rather limited...
That's being left to private industry (Gridserve, Ionity etc) to sort out, which they appear to be doing quite capably. It's probably best if the Government keeps it's snout out of things they know bugger all about, and let those deal with it who do.......
My Rolec type 2 charger isn't clever enough to be controlled by anyone. Not everything should be connected to the internet. I have a Tesla Powerwall anyway so my car wouldn't be using the grid.
Cant see the V.A.T being added onto off peak rates I have a go tarriff and no car! programe my dishwasher wash machine and battery pack to charge off peak many more solar installations the same how could it work in this instance!!!.The maths don't work anyhow 20% added to 7.5p wouldnt bring in much road tax
And not only has this come out from June's new chargers after this another reg is on its way which will require you to have a smart meter like v2g so that the grid can use your stored ev battery to help the grid demand that is phase 2
Nobody government or other can enforce more wear and tear on your car battery with multiple charge/discharge cycles without compensation and your permission.
Good summary of the legislation and I was impressed with the thought that went into it. I do have a small worry, that will become a bigger worry as more of these smart chargers come into use... and that concerns daylight savings. I reply tweeted to the Zappi chap about this a few weeks ago but got no response. Essentially, because the legislation does not mention how "time" should be measured, some charge manufacturers may rely purely on local time. When the clocks go forward every last Sunday in March, users who have set their charge to come on every day after 1 am, even if the charge provider randomises (say) 1.30 am to be 1.36 am, when the clock jumps forward from 1 to 2 am, the charger realises it is already past 1.36 am, so immediately switches on. Multiply this by thousands of cars and you have an immediate (to the millisecond), multi-MW demand that the grid is going to struggle to meet. Of course, good engineers understand that to get around this they must develop software to calculate around this, e.g. by storing intended start times internally using UTC time and then applying the correct random offsets on mornings when DST changes. But even good engineers often get this wrong! The legislation really needs to include this gotcha so that smart charge manufacturers do not unintentionally create the exact problem the government was trying to solve. There's also a similar problem when the clocks go back. If the charger knows it should only come on after 1.30 am then end-September just before the clocks go back, it may turn on after 1.30 am for about 30 minutes and then when the local time switches to 1am immediately thousands of chargers switch off because they realise time hasn't yet reached Sunday 1.30 am! This has the potential to overload the grid when demand drops by several MW. I don't know if you can interview one of the Zappi experts to confirm they understand the problem and how they're designing their system accordingly, and communicating the problem to the government so they can ensure manufacturers cannot comply without solving such software bugs? That would be great!
I think a workaround would be! Cheap price times changed to say from 3am to whenever instead of from 12.30am to whenever That way whenever the clocks go forward or backwards shouldn't have the sudden power requirements change Also if dome of the units have been set up during summertime hours and others were setup during wintertime hours this could help stagger the times EV's charge Just a thought
(4) In this regulation- (a)“default charging hours” means a default period during which the relevant charge point charges a vehicle regardless of what time the vehicle is first connected to it; (b)“peak hours” means 8am to 11am on weekdays and 4pm to 10pm on weekdays.
I have had to buy a Granny cable as my landlord won’t let me install a proper ev charger as i don’t have a dedicated parking space plus the cable goes across the pavement not that anyone has to walk past it as were semi detached
@@NicolasRaimo Probably, but as long as Tesla sells UMC and other manufacturers of the same everyone should be fine. In any case it is not something you need to buy every year and EV charger is not a space shuttle, it is actually pretty basic device.
@@NicolasRaimo the regs don't apply to a '“non-smart cable” which means "an electrical cable which is a charge point but which is not able to send and receive information" i.e. a granny charger
A lot of this is good, however a couple of things: 1. will the power company or Octopus type companies contribute to your Wi Fi costs? 2. Having a listening/snooping device on your network is an uncomfortable area, its fraught with danger for the customer. Ok at some point in the future Octopus like devices will have be security compliant and prove it. It sits on your IP network at home and could access network traffic, i.e any sensitive data sent across a network. Smart meters cannot access your IP traffic and so cannot intercerpt your sensitive data.
Why is it a rip off it’s an important safety device charging your car at a high amp rate for a sub stain Period of time faster chargers will allow you to sock more cheap rate electricity
@@NicolasRaimo Yes safety is important but you can get a consumer that can safely handle 100 amps for less than £100 so why should it cost so much for a 30-amp plug. The circuit board will have been put together in china for around £100 and the case probably cost around £30. So why does it cost £600 for the unit and £400 for 2.5 hours fitting it? It should cost less than £600 all in.😡🤠
TEA! Taxed enough already, maybe the government should find ways to spaff less money up the wall on dodgy PPE deals than tax ev charging, why are some older diesels still paying £0 or £20 for road tax? Mental.
This just tells me the restriction and taxation of EV's is started. The government, or anyone else can now turn off your car, refuse to supply fuel or charge as much as they want for the privilege of owning one.
I presume they will want to find a way to tax people charging from their own solar too? This would mean charging Vat on charging would raise very little for people charging that way
It's important to note that this legislation only applies to chargepoints sold as part of your business. So stuff already installed is still OK, and granny chargers aren't suddenly worthless - you can still use them and also sell them secondhand, C2C only. I think the tax situation is going to be more complex than that - it's going to have to deal with V2G where you charge your car and then discharge it back to the grid without going anywhere. they will want to promote this as it can help with load smoothing, but it's not going to work unless they have some taxback scheme.
So many socket outlets are made in china so quality not always up to standard which can cause the socket to fail due to high current a granny charger works at.
I don't think they'll be able to fairly tax on ev charging. How would they get around all the dumb granny cables and all the dumb or not smart enough EV chargers that have already been installed. I'm in a two EV household so I've got two home chargers and two granny chargers. I don't see how they will ever be able to tax on those in any easy way.
They'll be sending Hodges, the Granny Cable Warden round. He'll instruct you to both turn that light off, and stop using your Granny Cable. The whole notion is frankly laughable......
A granny cable is the best way to limit the charge rate to a trickle, it limits charging to less than most other devices. Mind you I want to charge mid day when my solar is going to the grid at the moment.
I went for a long drive the day after collecting my Zoe last year. I found that some chargers are not even open to you when you use the app, but the others that do charge slower than you want. I was lucky to get back home without running out as a local business had a free charger, I could use. As soon as they came in stock I got a granny charger and am happy to go into my own garage and charge on the off-peak, when and if I need a charge. Everyone going to charge at the same time is a bit of a myth that get's believed leading to Grid fears. In the same way as they spread the myth that petrol will run out, which causes them all to fill up all of their cars in a big queue of panic buying. Has it ever run out? Getting a charger installed is another flap as it effectively makes your first hundreds of pounds of charge quite expensive. Trust in the Granny, for me, they can't watch me charge my car. Grid robustness, should be built in, the same way charge poles should not be falling over in any storm.
Yes. The granny charger is a non permanent installation but gives you the user options for charging. Charging over night at 2.2kw is slow but given how long you leave it on it charges just fine. Take care and get a spare, M.
Major holes in your theory about taxing EV owners using the charger data. A Tesla might be more efficient than an ID3 so why does the ID3 driver pay more ? What if like me an EV owner uses solar ? Suppliers of electricity can not be 100% sure if the electricity you receive is green or not as it comes from the National Grid. Why should EV cars be taxed as much as ICE cars, surely emissions are the most important issue ? All vehicles should pay some road tax but we all know its just a stealth tax and doesn't cover the road infrastructure repair or expansion. Why not charge everyone higher income and NI instead of road tax and why is petrol and diesel so cheap again ?
Really informative, thankyou. The idea that Catastrophic Coincidental Load grid failure can be avoided seems sensible precaution - a 'peak use off' mode. One of the talked about 'advantages' of smart meters and smart mains connected devices was the ability to remotely switch off a freezer, fridge etc. to provide 'intelligent' load balancing, so programming this into chargers makes sense. Granny leads have their place: We have three times visited family and topped up during our stay at family homes that do not have charge points. Where differential electricity vat (5% vs 20%) is concerned, we cannot see this working: Firstly, the measurement in the wall mounted charge points are not certified/accurate. Secondly 63% of all our charging has come from PV panels; We would expect a class action court case if the Government attempted to charge VAT on the electricity generated from a home PV system that had already been subject to VAT. Finally, if the car is charging at 2kW, the panels are generating 2kW, the house is using 2kW and 2kW is being imported from the grid, it will be a very clever system that can sort out the question 'is the grid electricity in the house at 5% vat, or in the car at 20%vat?' We are under no illusion; as more EV's and PHEV's arrive, the taxation hole (road fund licence, dinosaur juice duty, vat on servicing, vat on parts etc.) will need to be filled. A flat rate hike in VAT on electricity is a sure vote loser, as it is used to power homes, heat pumps and keep the elderly warm. Road tolls seem equally expensive to monitor/ collect but with L.E.Z and U.L.E.Z zones bring monitored, not impossible on major roads / motorways. We also suspect that an increase in electricity prices will be countered by a demand to pay competitive rates for PEV small generator exported electricity. We live in interesting times; we are taking further action to avoid energy costs by adding house batteries to further reduce our reliance on the grid. We suspect many other houses are doing the same....
Your statement that there is a small possibility that the government will use EV charging as both or revenue (taxing) and as a means of control in naive … it is inevitable particularly if laws like this pass.
Pay per mile the more you use the more you pay simple. Everybody pays 5000 miles equivalent to a basic car tax after you've used your 5000 miles up you pay per mile. No need to tax electricity.
The elephant in the room is 2 way charging to allow balance the electric grid and give back the charge later. So then all electric cars would need to put on charge when getting home.
I don't have any issue with what you say about security risks and some of your comments about coordinated timing of chargers. But I don't believe it is reasonable to talk in terms of "knock out" or "take down" the National Grid. The National Grid is decorated like a Christmas Tree with physical protection systems. Added to this, the Electricity System Operator carries operating and fast reserve to manage a range of uncertainties. There are different levels of protections for unexpected change of grid frequency, loss of individual circuits or over-loading, short-circuits (lightning strikes are quite common), A reasonable worst case is automatic load shedding like the 9 August 2019 event, where 1 million customers were cut-off. This was very serious, but not on the scale suggested by your choice of words.
@@NicolasRaimo I work 3 shifts which can vary so you can fall into peak hours at times, I have a small battery so during the week charge daily, both car and charger have time options as well as the charger being able to load balance and charge purely from Solar, during the summer evenings given my house faces SW i gain from the solar through the peak period, but under the simple "you can't charge at peak time, but you'd be able to overide daily" it'd soon get a little irritating, I know my charger intheory won't be forced into this but already being a smart charger there is no reason why legislation couldn't alter this remotely. I know it's my own fault for having a small batteried car and would love a bigger battery but hey ho money and all that stuff.
@@markmilligan6616 I didn’t say you can’t charge just that the charger won’t default allow you, there will be a button on charger to override when you need to, however it’s likely your be paying more for that via your bill in future
@@NicolasRaimo I know you didn't, it's like a lot of these things thought out by committee who have no idea of the span of case uses, not their problem has nil effect on them so they don't address those edge cases, I won't be paying for more as I have home storage and solar, but a generic it's peak time default you shouldn't charge now, if really smart would integrate so that only drawing off the grid would be restricted into forcing one to override it, they really need to consult actual users who fall within these periods and get manufacturers to co-operate into designing the software and firmware to be as intelligent as possible.
Tech stuff and government always ends in tears. Smart meters? As we have to tax our ev's each year ,albeit zero rate now, just put back a tax. Say £500 pa for a Tesla and £30 pa for my Kia?
That just wouldn't work John, currently ice cars pay road tax and fuel tax. You'd need to charge MUCH MUCH MORE than what your suggesting and all cars would be equal meaning your Kia would likely pay MUCH more as 1 direct hit rather than spread over the usage
@@NicolasRaimo ah yes, it has to replace VED and fuel duty. You are right, of course, but no less depressing for that! At my age the next move is into a taxi or rough it with the bus pass. Loving the heat btw and actually hit 8.2 mpkwh on a local trip. Would give me a theoretical range of 240 miles!
@@johnfaulkner6776 indeed its the fuel duty that's the big tax hole the road tax is much of a nothing really if anything it just allows the DVLA to know which cars are on the road checks for insured cars and MOT's
@@NicolasRaimo Dara M might mean, the UK should invest forward a robust and up to date electrical grid. Instead trying to use the old infrastructure and squeeze it to the last drop. It has the charm of being efficient and not oversized. But one has to think forward.
@@NicolasRaimo the Tories on road taxation, grid load and infrastructure renewal (plus avoiding new nuclear, or not). Just get on with National charging network, owned by the state, which isn’t the free market economics of right wing neo-capitalists. It’ll be a fricking mess like the privatised railways.
There's a LOT of assumptions going on here... If the government is about cutting CO2 (which is nonsense) then EVERY new build should have solar PV and a battery (to avoid stressing the grid) but this would kill energy suppliers. Don't forget that EV rates make your gas more expensive (probably double)... This video should surely wake people up to the fact that EV cars as a mass transport system is unsustainable...SMART ANYTHING means you can be switched off, anytime, for any reason...all this about Smart is rubbish: easy way to stop Smart being hacked is not to have it at all. As for Smart being fair...Jesus you're naive. We're in dispute with our supplier to the tune of HUNDREDS of pounds in a six month period... If this comes in we may have to get rid of our electric car as it will be pricier than our 13 year old Fabia ... Edit: how will ANYONE be able to afford an EV if all this goes through? They're £10 grand more expensive in the first place and then they'll be more expensive to run, then there will be a 'pollution' tax to get rid of the battery etc etc...as well as the usual nonsense of remote chargers: unreliable, hard to use, inaccessible, not enough of them etc...I like our EV, but it's looking like the naysayers are right...
Nick.please don't keep villainising Granny cables, they have a very important place in the EV ownership cycle. The crap that was shown when charging on on a 13 amp circuit was mind bogglingly dumb, the sockets are fully designed and rigorously tested to safely output 13amps not the 10amps granny chargers use. Simply pointing a FLIR camera at the socket any saying its dangerous is complete bollocks - go point it at most devices and cables and "be alarmed" at the result. Don't be the dis-information channel.
Your totally wrong 13amp sockets are not designed or tested for the unsupervised hours a granny charger is on for, They do make a special designed EV rated one that is but again it’s missing all the safety devices there’s no place for granny cables when I made the video and now in 2023 there is no excuse
The legal implications of the Government attempting to somehow restrict electricity supplies to people's homes is frankly ridiculous. Purely on the basis that consumers they pay their bill, any court would rule it was illegal and immoral. And who in their right mind would begin charging an electric car at 5 or 6pm, when the cost of doing so is at it's highest? The vast majority of UK electric car owners charge their cars through the night, when there is huge spare capacity in the grid. The National Grid themselves have said the UK's grid is at 60% capacity, and there are no issues. You're just scaremongering... What about those whom have medical or other needs? You can't just switch power off willy nilly. The whole concept is just utterly bonkers. You seem to have completely overlooked the fact that if we're all driving electric cars, then we won't need the UK's oil refineries producing 14 million gallons of petrol and 11 million gallons of diesel per day, each gallon requiring around 6 to 8kw of electricity to produce, will we? That alone would free up enough capacity in the grid to charge millions of EV's.....
Brian this is legislation it comes into law in weeks… no scaremongering it’s just facts, yes the majority of us charge off peak however that’s not to say the rest of EV buyers will be as savy so these rules are in place. The legislation is online for you to read
The new legislation is all about control & taxes PERIOD. As an Electrician, i can tell you a car charger is no different to heating up water with an immersion heater, only HMRC needs SMART because there missing revenue from the petrol station. PS, NEVER GET A CONTROL METER, they know when kettle washing machines tumble drying car charger etc, and can adjust rates for them all. This will happen before 2030. If you unfortunately have a SMART meter either A. Have it removed or B. Have it converted to a dumb meter, it’s your right as a consumer of energy & does not effect your tariff.
@@NicolasRaimo it ain’t tin foil mate, i know what I’m talking about. The water heater compared to granny charger was a reference to the power used 3kw.
@@ecoterrorist1402 As far as I'm aware there are no present metering systems that can remotely tell the difference between an immersion water heater, stand alone room heater/heaters or a car charging with either a granny cable or a commando lead (16/32A). The government will go for the low hanging fruit which will be new networked EV chargers and may after a long time look at the previous dumb charging methods. It all boils down to cost effective means of charging control/measurement for tax purposes which means new EV chargers will initially bear the burden of first charging control and then tax revenue. If the DNO look for constant loads it is very easy to multi time loading on a dumb commando socket with a timer/current control to mimic a temp control system but as I say they will go for the easy lower hanging fruit of new networked EV charging systems and the non technical public. I can see older EV's becoming very sought after for fuel tax evasion and cheap running costs if the fuel duty is placed on metered EV charging because the next government regulatory move is to make all future EV's only communicate with official (taxed) networked chargers.
@@MJF510 ICE cars also have that, in form of road tax, we need to face it as EV owners, we will pay road tax and we will pay a set amount of duty on kwh or per mile using a few methods I've done another video in reply to comments in this video be out in a week
Separately from my other comment, thinking the matter through, I have to disagree that the government will use data sent over the Internet from chargers to "tax" EVs. All that people need to do to avoid this is to use a charger that is not connected to the Internet - the black market will thrive if sale of them is banned, & if sale of them isn't banned, then why on earth would anyone choose a (probably safer, admittedly) approved charger and opt thereby to pay tax on their EV. EVs will likely be charged, IMHO, by either mileage travelled (compulsory annual check) or by number plate recognition on roads throughout the country. Also, they will have to reintroduce road tax charges for EVs - they actually cause *more* wear on the road as they are heavier.
EV's should be taxed by means of the distance covered between MOT's. The first 3 years should be taxed at a lower rate and estimated or the driver/owner should have to report it with photographic proof.
The grid can cope, it’s amount managing it, if everyone turns up at petrol station same time you can’t fill up, if your car is parked on your drive when you get home why do you care when it starts
There are no problems with the grid. The National Grid themselves have said the UK's grid is at 60% capacity. In fact the National Grid were one of the organisations whom lobbied the Government to bring *forward* the ban on the sale of new ICE cars and vans from 2035 to 2030. The National Grid are anticipating around 9 million EV's on Britain's roads by 2030, and around 25 to 30 million by 2040..... And both the Head of the National Grid (whom incidentally drives an EV) and his Head of Operations Development, appeared in front of a Parliamentary Committee around 3 years ago, specifically to field and answer questions regarding the viability of the UK's grid, and the transition to EV use. The video of that very meeting is still here on TH-cam, should anyone wish to see it......
I have no doubt the grid is at 60 percent capacity, as in loads the cables will carry. However I was thinking more about the actual electricity travelling down those cables, we already import electricity as when the wind doesn't blow we don't generate enough. When these other countries also get big EV uptake they will not have spare capacity to export. However some EV chargers where installed where I live and not turned on for months as they realized the cable in the street could not handle the load, so that had to be replaced by by the distribution company.
@@SteveN-pw4dj we also export energy as well as import them lines work both ways. Your argument on grid lines is partly true on a local level however some areas do need upgrading this isn’t true for all and the grid as a supplier can cope, also electric cars could be a solution as well, cars spend 90% of their life not moving, new v2g systems means we could charge these cars up during offpeak and discharge during peak, this for customer would mean paying say 10p a kwh to charge but during peak being paid £1 a kwh
@@NicolasRaimo Well I suppose I'm not of the mind-set of a far-left ideolog who believes everything the government does is to be obeyed while on the knees. Giving someone, particularly the someone, who often has tyrannical before their name, power beyond which is absolutely necessary, So in the UK, my dad doesn't have the right to defend me with the weapons that the government has, so we get the police to do the protecting, the police allows rapes to take place because it maybe phobic to stop them, it may be, this surprises you, if so, you really shouldn't be talking about giving more power to big brother, albeit Kw, likewise, if you have a smart meter fitted to your house you will be mandated by virtue you can't do anything about it to be part of any rolling blackouts that may be deemed necessary. Keep in mind your smart-meter can isolate you as an individual; I assure you none of the 'important' people will be part of the rolling blackouts. What you do not do is give a stranger the responsibility to protect your daughter, decide when and if she can have the power to switch a light on to drive away the darkness, or how much she pays on that day's whim to consume a kW. The reason why is because stupidity isn't a virtue but something to be avoided. Forget about wind power, and solar panels, build nuclear power stations whereby the electricity is so cheap it's hardly worth billing for. Keep in mind the exuberant standing charge imposed by big brother could have been used to build just such stations. What we need are smart people, not smart meters/charges because the latter aren’t smart they are controlling. If the infrastructure can’t support the charging of electric cars, do not promote electric cars until the infrastructure is in place. You are giving too much power to the potential tyrannical. You may think tyrannical, extreme but 100 million in one century who died in gulags and detention centres didn’t. All that was needed, was enough useful fools to take sanity to insanity. I understand as a male you are drawn to gadgets and things but do not let this be your downfall.
@@NicolasRaimo Is that the level of your intellect? have another go but try to engage with the points in my post even if you didn't like the outcome. maybe start simple as then you won't need to use ad hominem arguments. So is it wise to be promoting electric cars without the infrastructure to support them? keep in mind you would be taking up the 'bandwidth" of the grid to replace your journey from petrol/diesel to an already overloaded electrical infrastructure .i.e you are putting all your eggs in one basket and the government has the handle of the basket. so within 1 mile of me, I have 5 petrol stations. when my dad fills up his car that has no bearing on the status of our smart meter i.e. we could be within the rolling blackout but still be able to use the facilities of the car since it's not dependent on the smart meter and grid.
@@sarahclark5447 I can't argue with someone who's so into conspiracy and incorrect information it be like playing chess with a pigeon, it would knock all the pieces over poo on the broad and strut around like it won anyway
Is your video completely wrong and misleading, ie fake news, as the title suggest? As it stands, it is not worth listening to just looking at the title, I am just not sure if you are trying to be controversial or completely wrong?
another reason NOT to buy an EV, they are more expensive to buy for a start, are they any greener over their lifetime when you include materials to build them ,recycle them and the electric consumed to charge them using fossil fuels
Michael, your final point regarding the electricity to charge EV's from fossil fuel is invalid. Exactly the same fossil fuels are used to generate the electricity used to refine the fossil fuel *your* vehicle uses! The EV scores it's brownie points by no longer adding to the pollution at street level in our towns and cities...... And since you mentioned the "materials" to build electric cars, I'll mention Volkswagen as an example. VW build their electric vehicles in three huge new factories, spread over three Continents, all of which have a zero carbon footprint, and are powered by 100% renewable energy. The vehicles themselves use a high percentage of both recycled and plant based material in their construction - dashboards, seat material, carpets, door cards etc. Even the final paint finish on the cars is plant based. Volkswagen were also among the first car manufacturers to build their own EV battery recycling plant, located in Zwickau in Eastern Germany. VW were also the first car maker to sign up to the legally binding Paris Climate Agreement, which obliges signatories to reach zero carbon by 2050. And certainly right now many electric vehicles do cost more. But that doesn't seem to be the barrier to adoption you're suggesting it might be, because Volkswagen have sold their complete EV production for *all* of 2022, and into 2023.......Likewise, Kia have sold their entire production quota for their EV6 model for the next *three years* in some markets......
I charge my car during the day, in summer, via my granny charger from my solar PV. Good luck with charging me VAT on that!
Lucky us😂 nothing new, control everything we let them to control!
So do i
Sorry to say that long-term you WILL be paying tax, coz the end of petrol cars will mean a huge hole in the tax income to the exchequer if they don't find a way to replace it.
It might be based on what your EVSE puts into your car. Frankly, it'd probably be easier and cheaper to just charge you a rate based on your annual milage, but when has our government ever done anything the cheap and easy way?
@@ChrisComley. Yes, road pricing is coming. Probably based on annual mileage and/or motorway tolls. ICE drivers will also probably have to pay this too, however.
Same here, my solar will charge the car without touching the grid, the law should be all new homes have solar.
Can’t see it happening soon. There’s 300+ new homes being built in my town. None have parking right next to the individual buildings, no charge point in evidence, no heat pumps, no PV on roofs, no solar heating panels.
The government can spout all they like on eco technologies and energy saving measures. But there’s no will to enforce and even less available money to enable builders and or homeowners to accomplish proposals.
Exactly. Will Boris implement some sort of scheme whereby there's a Hodges the Air Raid Warden type character, going round to see whether anyone is using a granny cable? The whole notion is frankly ludicrous.
In Scotland if you dont add Eco stuff you dont get to build 👍
Thanks for the heads up. Ordering a granny cable as I bought an ev to avoid being milked for every mile driven. Honestly is £8k vat on purchasing the car not enough for gov? How much more do they want?
They want your blood, your prays, your first born, your bank balance with interest for not having handed it over at time of birth, your left shoe on Mon, Wed and Fri, your right shoe on weekends and all the sprouts you can grow.
Is that not enough? What a very strange question. No, it clearly isn't. There's never enough, there's only how much they think they can get away with. At the moment more than ever coz of the massive bills to be paid for brexit and covid.
I have a 32a commando socket inside my garage and a Tesla UMC that dumb charges my car just fine. I'll buy a spare one and carry on doing that for as long as I can. 😀
Why limit your self these ideas don’t hinder you, also remember a Tesla is connected to web so they could limit it via api
@@NicolasRaimo no, the Tesla UMC (with a 32a plug) is just a sophisticated 'granny' charger.
@@FFVoyager I doubt this will affect granny charging if you want to start immediately; however, if you have a charge schedule set in your Tesla to, e.g. 2 a.m., I think what Nick is suggesting is, there may be a change to the government legislation that encourages car manufacturers to start the charge a random number of minutes and seconds after the time you've set.
So, if you update your Tesla software as most drivers do, you would get this "grid protection when scheduled charging" functionality for free anyway.
@@FFVoyagerHi, like it, genuine non permanent install.
Take care M.
There are a lot of legacy chargers out there. Unless the government plan to visit homes in the late evening/middle of the night to see what chargers are operating (without transmitting their details to the government!) then everyone will continue to buy chargers that don't have these restrictions. In fact, it will *encourage* people to buy non approved chargers, and the removal of the OLEV scheme subsidy for home chargers has removed the main method of standardising home chargers. As far as I am aware, neither of our two home chargers will be able to be controlled by a central body as is proposed - and additional issues are caused by how our two EVs charged. Neither of our two cars can be properly set only to charge within certain times.
This is government completely failing to understand the current limitations & non-standardisation of technology in both EV vehicles and chargers.
(As an aside, we mainly use an Ohme cable to set charging during Octopus Go hours - and this would meet government standards - as long as the mobile network is working OK, as it relies on that for Internet connection. But this was an expensive add-ons)
Exactly. And what of those whom have large amounts of battery storage available, and may choose to use it to charge an EV? How can, or even why, should the Government tax that?
The act CLEARLY states that it only applies to sales of new devices.
I charge from my solar panels during the day whenever I can. We are childminders too also we are 4 adults who all work from home…. and use power during the day. I therefore don’t want to change tariff because it makes daytime electricity cost more? Am I wrong? Ovo seem to be still offering 5p rate at off peak? Maybe I should change, but I haven’t reached that conclusion yet.
Granny cables are excellent to use in a pinch stopping them for regular use fine but that would also stop them been used in emergency
Some good points a few odd bits, At 5:17 you incorrectly state that the overnight charge rate is 5p, having previously correctly said 7.5p. The theory about international cyber terrorism surely falls down as switching on a charger does nothing if there is not a car plugged in to consume the electricity. Increasing the At home VAT rate from 5p to 20p will be far more costly than the "car tax" so let's not give them any ideas. It's hardly a fair tax unless everyone home charging is paying the same and without all non smart chargers removed that would not be the case. It also will not encourage EV adoption, so I think that is a way off yet
Sorry Paul am still on 5p so my brain misspoke
@@NicolasRaimolucky lad.
Overnight charging at 4.5p per kwh is *still* available if you know where to look...... And increasing the VAT rate to 20% on electricity used by homes will be tantamount to political suicide at the next election after it happens....... It would also push millions more people into fuel poverty, and probably kill hundreds of home-based businesses too.....
@@Brian-om2hh please watch the entire video I stated it’s a theory and I didn’t say on all electric just what chargers the car
@@Brian-om2hh I think everyone here would like you to share where to look 😉
The smart function on my charger has failed, it’s out of warranty and I use the cars timer to set low cost overnight charging ……… am I going to get it fixed 🤔 Yea right
A new charger to me is like a few years fuel in the EV hard to justify
You say at the end of your video that metering the car charge separately and charging 20% VAT on it is a way of charging per mile. I think that is incorrect - it is a charge per kWh which means inefficient EV's pay more than efficient ones - a much fairer idea.
There’s not much in efficiency these days but yes your right however same rule applies to fuel duty currently. Either way all better than road tax
@@NicolasRaimo Well 2.5m/kWh v 5m/kWh is twice the tax - so yes it is significant!
@@fredderf6491 you could argue older cars with poor mpg pay much more also
@@NicolasRaimo You could - whose arguing?
I do like the idea of charging more for “thirsty” cars, that need more kWh/mile. I think it is proper and fair to require owners of typically larger and more luxurious vehicles to pay more than owners of small hatchbacks. The larger heavier cars also do more damage to the roads.
You say that non smart charge points will be illegal. What about legacy charge points? I am not about to spend out on a smart charge point when mine works.
Existing units will be fine it’s just on new sold items, they expect your be replacing that within the next few years
@@NicolasRaimo Perhaps having a "non-smart" charger as a backup would be wise move in case the normal system is hacked / blocked.
@@paulfairless7901 the entire point of new rules is behind very strict security
@@NicolasRaimo Would no internet = no charge?
Copied from the new legislation; "These Regulations do not apply to-
(a) the sale of a charge point before 30th June 2022" so there is no issue for legacy chargers.
Nick, Thanks for this informative video on proposed legislation. I live in the US, but changes like this UK law are likely to be replicated elsewhere as EV sales grow. I like the idea of defaulting to not charge during peak times, with manual override when needed. I also like the randomization of start times. However, I really don’t like outlawing “dumb” granny leads. They are low power, limiting their impact on the grid, and I would like all EV drivers to have this option available to them when wanted or needed. There are way more standard household plugs than EV charge points. As for the possible kWh tax for EVs in the future, my first reaction was negative, but there will need to be some way to collect road tax. Currently I pay $150/year extra per year for EV license plates to account for state gas tax, but nothing for federal gas tax. A fixed annual fee is not ideal, since heavy road users and people with very limited road use pay the same. Maybe “smart” granny leads could be practical and affordable in the future, if made in high volume and supplied with every EV sold? Thanks again for your content, I always enjoy your videos.
I like the granny cable, it is all I have to charge at the moment as my main charger has stopped working
Hi, mine is more convenient until I get charge point fitted.
Take care M.
Taxing by the mile is not fair to those of us in rural areas where we have to travel a lot. What happens with the charging from my battery and solar panels that goes through my Zappi - would that be taxed too.
What about people who have solar panels and charge when the sun shines rather than the grid? I also have a battery which is fed by the solar panels. Quite a bit goes back into the grid and we are not receiving an increase in our electricity going into the grid. Commercial chargers are needed for low range ev's as you travel. What is a Granny charger? I have a waterproof proper charger (£200) and BMW have 3 levels of charge and check that the connection is good. On AC they only allow a max of 10 amps but I can use fast charging for dc.
That charger your using is a granny charger, forget it missing all the levels of safety a prober charger has… but it’s dumb not smart
@@NicolasRaimo smart sounds good and dumb sounds bad. But actually dumb means a so called charger or granny cable is a simple communication box between the AC charger (located in the EV) and an AC socket. So dumb in this case means, it’s doing it’s provided task and not anything on top.
You don't want to be exporting back to the grid if you can possibly help it. They pay you a relative pittance for each kw you supply to the grid, then they sell it on for 30p (or more) per kwh to someone else......
Nick great videos. Have you done any videos or have and recommendations for EV chargers in a house share or HMO environment? So the landlord can bill the user of the EV charger. How would a EV charger differentiate between the different vehicles being charged?
its quite complex as they'd need to Bill for electric which is a service... There is sytems that can do it thou which I've reviewed one method would be using RFID logins with Easee
Smart meters are causing problems in areas of poor mobile reception. They would have to ensure that everyone in the UK has access to adequate coverage to remote and poorly covered areas.
Subscribe for next weeks video ;)
did you see it...
What about existing chargers? I have 2 vehicles with granny leads which I use occasionally and a dumb wall charger which I fitted a timer to take advantage of Octopus Go. Will I need to change it all?
No it’s only the sale of new
@@NicolasRaimo Thanks Nicolas
Hmm.. to me it doesn't make sense for legislation to force out Granny cables by making them become "smart", especially because the draw is relatively low.
Isn't it better to have some ev owners charging slower over a longer period for grid balancing rather than everyone having a higher draw smart charger?
Thanks for this heads up. If the government is going to legislate In this area perhaps they should be legislating on V2H as well. If all chargers were bidirectional, EVs could be used to reduce the need for base load power plants. This innovation is already operational in the Netherlands.
V2H here also issue is currently only Nissan Leaf is able… however cCS cars should be in next 12 months
Why should someone with solar have to pay tax on their own energy generation. The charger to then need to connect to the owners elec meter to check whats being imported. Not going to happen. Far easier to log mileage in the car surely. Then it can be double checked at mot time.
Exactly. It's complete nonsense.
th-cam.com/video/KMg4Tm1MKSs/w-d-xo.html this video if for you Brian
Scaremongering? The regs seem to exclude granny chargers
"Application
3.-(1) Subject to paragraph (2), these Regulations apply to charge points(1) which are intended to be used for charging cars, vans or both of them, other than-
(a)non-smart cables;
...
(3) In this regulation-
...
(b)“non-smart cable” means an electrical cable which is a charge point but which is not able to send and receive information;"
A granny charger sounds like a "non-smart cable" to me and therefor these regs do not apply
Read section 5 where it defines what is a charge point which would include granny, a non smart cable mode 1 would be for example to say a kettle lead
A relevant charge point has smart functionality if-
(a)it is able to send and receive information via a communications network;
(b)it is able to respond to signals or other information received by it by-
(i)increasing or decreasing the rate of electricity flowing through the charge point;
(ii)changing the time at which electricity flows through the charge point;
(c)it is capable of using the functionality referred to in sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) to provide demand side response services, including response DSR services; and
(d)at least one user interface, which enables the charge point to be operated in accordance with these Regulations, is incorporated in the charge point or otherwise made available to the owner.
mode 2 is able to send and recieve information with the car, so earlier clause applies and it becomes 'relevant'
th-cam.com/video/KMg4Tm1MKSs/w-d-xo.html video addressing the regs in full for you
Sorry just abit of clarification at 10:15 you say that they could switch all the chargers on at the same time to "knock out the national grid". Although in theory it could cause some disruption it wouldn't take out the national grid. Its designed to load shed if the frequency drops within certain tolerances (48.8hz in the uk) You would ultimately end up with customers cut off but the grid would still be relatively stable and function as designed.
Hi Nick, yes my Octo tariff automatically allocates up to three charge slots over the small hours of the morning, depending on national grid demand, to make the most efficient use of power generated at times when other demand is low. I'm very happy with that, it makes logical sense.
What is your tariff called please?
evnick.com/energy its called octopus intelligent video about it listed on my channel and £50 to join octopus if your not already with them
10 years ago I installed PVs when there was a generous FIT scheme. It was only in the last 2 years that I have been in a position to measure the amount of PV energy we actually use and I was shocked at how small a proportion we were using (c25% a year). I have recently acquired an EV and installed a smart charger which enables me to make use of zero cost PV power during the summer and cheaper offpeak electricity during the winter. I am also looking at installing a heat pump and thermal store to make use of the PV power and off peak electricity for central heating.
At the moment we are on an oil based heating system and I estlimate that energy equivalent of heating far exceeds what we will use for the EV and our other power needs. If our government is serious about zero carbon then it is going to have to take serious steps to smooth demand from the grid which will presumably get trickier as solar and wind power is ramped up in coming years.
As I understand it the cheap rate tariffs that companies such as Octopus are offering are being done at a loss. My assumption is that for me to economically switch to electric power is dependent on being able to exploit off peak rates. For this to happen it seems to me that there needs to be regulatory changes to enable the pricing fluctuations that occur in the wholesale market to feed through to the consumer.
I would be interested in any comments you may have
I too have solar but unlike you my fit payments were among the last and lowest. I do have an EV and have also invested in two powerwall’s they are expensive but for us the return on investment was greater than bank savings. I live in a new build semi detached house and I’m considering changing the gas boiler for an electric one that could mostly run on cheap rate OctopusEnergy. The reason I’m not keen on an Air source heat pump is the major disruption to our house coupled with cost. Getting rid of gas would be a saving of £100 standing charge and electric is 100% efficient compared to a possible 85-90 with gas. I’ve yet to test out my costings running on electric but I think there won’t be that huge a difference providing I can stay within the storage of the Powerwall total of 27 kwh. as I should burn less kWh of electricity compared to gas due to the higher efficiency.
What is your location Bryan only your, PV 's seem very efficient or you have a great number? in my location a panel would be doing well to produce 200wh. Am I correct in assuming your EV motor is around 25kw? Do you run aircon/heating in your home?
@@sarahclark5447 I live on the Devon / Cornwall border and we are unusual in having 3 phase supply with a total of 47x 250 watt panels installed between 2011-2014. They generate around 12000kwhs/annum
@@bryanlewens2068 most homes found on the streets have 1 of the 3 phases if you were to find where the street houses start using the second phase, the measure between L1 and L2 would be 415 volts. industry uses 3-phase power which makes motor design simple.
Your EV would use 3-phase power, but your batteries are obviously DC so an invertor would change the battery voltage to Poly phase, when you do the conversion, losses occur.
That is a lot of outlay considering you can't boil a kettle after dark. it's very unlikely your panels would produce 250 watts. Maybe on a particularly good day for an hour or so. You do live in an ideal spot too, most homes may be able to mount 6 panels on a roof the roof may not be ideally facing. if you have the money and location go for it but it's not a solution it's more a gimic. are you aware your panel lose about 15% efficiency in the first 3 months? they do not know why at the moment, it isn't due to dust buildup. It's something to do with the chemistry.
if you have room for 47 panels consider selling them and use the sun to grow food as food shortages are on the way.
How much do you get for feed-in? You are surely not consuming 32kw/day. I live with my dad because I'm still at school and we consume 5kw day at 32p/kw + 70P standing charge but that 70p standing charge is for the gas too.
our fridge Freezer is are biggest load 2kw a day. my dad did consider solar panels but I persuaded him to spend his money marrying me off as that will be the biggest saving.
what we need to do is get rid of all the do-it-yourself power stations and go nuclear which will give everyone cheap power. some of the elderly won't be able to afford the cost of energy next winter. the poor dears have been funding silly wind turbines because Boris has forgotten he isn't supposed to be a far-left commie.
Sarah. Thanks for your comments and I will enlarge. I am a retired farmer and the panels are all ground mounted on a concrete area near the house. I built the house in the early 1970s when we were going through an energy crisis with very high oil prices. We were unsure what sort of heating system to install so we went with the least cost to install which were storage heaters on economy 7 tariff. I think we had 3 phase supply for the farm and so 3 phase was used to cope with the heating system. It didn’t work very well and so went to oil a few years later. We have done quite a lot to improve the insulation of the house and are now considering a heat pump to heat the house.
When we installed the PVs we were incentivised by Feed On Tariffs (FITS) which was paid on every KWh we generated. For a few years the value of the power itself was not fully appreciated because we only had a generation meter which didn’t tell us how much we were using. By installing export meters we now know how little of what we were generating was actually being used here. Most of it was going back to the grid. We have installed a heat store to capture some of the PV output as does the EV. We are planning to put in a heat pump and more heat storage to make use of PV energy and off peak power in winter. I think we need to have as flexible a system as possible to cope with some uncertain times ahead.
Not sure I agree with you about nuclear although I think more should have been done to prolong the life of the capacity in place. Nuclear has massive upfront costs and long lead times. PVs and wind are potentially much cheaper and quicker to install but clearly energy storage on a large scale will be required. New developments could change things but the future will be interesting.
I can understand the desire to move most EV home charging to overnight for load demand reasons. But a better way would be to make it much more financially favourable. But the way they greatly increase normal day rates as they offer cheap overnight does not work for most people. And contrary to your assertion - I am not insane. Just capable of operating a calculator. And trust me, if I went for a split tariff it would cost me a lot more overall than a standard 24/7 tariff. It would only work for me if I drove 150 miles daily and also set the dishwasher, and clothes washer overnight as well. People should take care if they were to accept your urging to go for a split tariff because quite often it is certainly not what they should be doing.
I quite agree. Split tariffs can only work for very specific user cases. If people work at home, don't have dishwashers and tumble dryers and drive efficient EVs the cost of these tariffs can be considerably more expensive!
I'm on a split tariff with Octopus go and my day rate (29.8p) is no more expensive than a standard tariff but my night rate is 7.5p. The old style ecomony 7 tariffs were bad at upping the day rate to punish you, but most modern time of use tariffs seem to be much more fair.
If you have an electric car you will definately save money moving to octopus go.
@@1981therealfury but that tariff is not available now and I bet when you got it standard rates were probably about 21p or less.
As the OP said we're all capable of calculating so no one needs to generalise for us and then call us names.
Each to their own
You looking at eco7? Octopus go peak price till recently was same as 24/7 deal, and even now it’s only a tad higher at 35p, try the spreadsheet on my site, it benefits everyone who has an EV unless your doing only like 2000 miles a year but then I’d agree you don’t need a care
@@joekupa @Joe C my octopus go tariff started on 20th May.... Not sure what prices are now, but pretty sure their standard tariff was the exact same day rate as this tariff at the time. Not calling anyone names, just calling out that not all time. Of use tariffs are equil.
Looking to switch one of our cars to an EV within the next 12 months and finding your content really informative, thank you. Clearly the government will need to be able to tax EV's so I'm sure measures like those discussed here will come in fairly soon.
The taxation element will transition from the fuel itself to actual road usage. Because that would cover even those whom manage to charge their electric car up for free, using their own solar panels etc.....
For the exchequer to get the equivalent in tax from electric as they do from petrol/ diesel the tax per kilowatt of home charging would need to be a lot more than 20%. What’s more exchequer would also need to start road taxing EVs in the same way as ICE cars. Mark my words it will happen as more of us switch to EVs.
How would they know the difference between charging your car at 8 amps and using a two bar electric fire consuming 8 amps in the winter? Fixed chargers are OK if you can find an installer who doesn't want to rip you off like most of them do, like we need another £500 before we install a charger even though you have paid money already.
Rolf so we need to solv there problem?
Interesting ideas here, but would turning on all plugged in granny’s really bring the grid down? I don’t think so, how many would actually be plugged in at any one time for example. Taxing home charge points in some ways can be done but everyone would need a smart charger. It wouldn’t be fare for some to pay 20% and others not. The easiest way would be to pay an amount dependent on the mileage driven per year.
This. If they want to move to a tax by miles driven, recording the odometer as part of the MOT would seem like the logical place to do it. Rather than the overcomplicated make everything smart and secure.
The problem is off peak charges is they are based on there not being a lot of demand, if they have to turn on more power stations then the costs will go up as now there is a demand. If the grid has to run with longer demand then OFF PEAK may become a thing of the past. At what point wil they have to start to limit the number of cars you can have in your viliage as they are not going to upgrade the overhead cables anytime soon.
There is a problem with the chargers as a lot of the cars have the charger built-in and the wall connector is only a device that switches the mains to the cable, and tells the car how much power it can take from it. it is not hard to build your own connector system, so the only way they would know your charging a car is by the amount of power you are consuming.
Setting a voltage threshold would be more accurate than any kind of over the air communication. It would also be impossible to hack it, because it would be analogue in nature, no computer code what so ever. The idea is very simple. When the grid is burdened, the voltage drops. When the other loads drop off, the grid voltage comes back up. The charge controller can then resume charging. Such a system would work perfectly with renewable energy, because as the wind kicks up, the turbines will raise line voltage, allowing cars to charge, directly from the turbines. The same holds true for grid tied photovoltaic (solar) panels.
South Australia has already made control of solar pv inverters part of the legislation. This means they can curtail solar output when there is too much supply (sort of the opposite problem to EV chargers). Most states here look like they will follow suite and I can see a time when this combined with smart chargers will mean excess solar is diverted to plugged in EVs. Making it bi-directional is the next step in the puzzle, but for V2G the hardware is a lot more expensive (except for certain vehicles that already have inverters onboard eg Ioniq and EV6). If they can tick all those boxes we will be able to do away with much of the existing peaking infrastructure and still keep grid stability.
Alot of solar inverters already have voltage response built into them in the UK. Sometimes on a sunny day your inverter will switch off if the voltage starts creeping up to unacceptable levels. Very frustrating when your PV install stops exporting because its a summers day and everyone is at work so their is very little load in the local area.
Imo they should be emission + road access, flat rate or from MOT mileage
It will happen for sure, how, when your car is service an update to the software will stop the granny cable. ☹️ as for solar don’t be fooled they can sort that one with software in the charge point, there’ll be no escape. ☹️
That would be a breach of contract relating to purchase of your vehicle. They could bring it in with new vehicles post a new law but not backdate a sales contract as this would lead to a free for all in litigation.
Funny how people were talking about this a few years ago, but some people denied this would ever happen! I got rid of my BMW i3S last year, when I found out my new home couldn’t have a 7kw home charger.
God! The UK is a real pain in the ass! My cousins have been telling me for years …. But lord! Some make sense but ugh, it’s not as stupid as Brexit but….
It actually makes a lot of sense if you listen and understand what he's saying. Not that I'd expect a Remainer to listen and understand of course 😂
I think problem with grid is not enough storage capacity. With my home battery doent have surge problems. Easy I store power for later if needed. Good day had 7.5 kWh into car from solar + water heated and power to house. Did read that grid had to switch of wind due to no way of storing power. Think it was £500000000 lost.
The tax lost to the exchequer will need to be replaced by something, from somewhere. The present simplest method is to tax the fuel (electricity) used to charge EV's, Some states in the USA have already decided and implemented annual taxes based on the increased weight of EV's. Lots of people are going to be caught out when EV fuel suddenly become taxable to replace the lost petroleum taxes levied on road fuel.
Lets face it how much has this government got right over the last few years ??
I think this legislation is very decent and honest stuff to be honest
Well they seem to be quite adept at organising parties and pi$$ ups...... Although their skills and talents at organising anything else seem rather limited...
The government and work at home civil servants should put the same effort into creating a good charging infrastructure for EVs.
That's being left to private industry (Gridserve, Ionity etc) to sort out, which they appear to be doing quite capably. It's probably best if the Government keeps it's snout out of things they know bugger all about, and let those deal with it who do.......
My Rolec type 2 charger isn't clever enough to be controlled by anyone. Not everything should be connected to the internet. I have a Tesla Powerwall anyway so my car wouldn't be using the grid.
They cant control granny cable.
Granny cables will be the Red Diesel of the 2030s
@@steveharvey2001 i will be buying few more to stock up
More home brew granny cables I guess!
@@fredderf6491 buy them off Amazon while still available and cheap
Why the tin foil hats people?
Cant see the V.A.T being added onto off peak rates I have a go tarriff and no car! programe my dishwasher wash machine and battery pack to charge off peak many more solar installations the same how could it work in this instance!!!.The maths don't work anyhow 20% added to 7.5p wouldnt bring in much road tax
And not only has this come out from June's new chargers after this another reg is on its way which will require you to have a smart meter like v2g so that the grid can use your stored ev battery to help the grid demand that is phase 2
Nobody government or other can enforce more wear and tear on your car battery with multiple charge/discharge cycles without compensation and your permission.
Hope it takes about 5 years to get done I drop from 19000 miles a year to about 5000 when I retire 😉
Good summary of the legislation and I was impressed with the thought that went into it.
I do have a small worry, that will become a bigger worry as more of these smart chargers come into use... and that concerns daylight savings.
I reply tweeted to the Zappi chap about this a few weeks ago but got no response. Essentially, because the legislation does not mention how "time" should be measured, some charge manufacturers may rely purely on local time.
When the clocks go forward every last Sunday in March, users who have set their charge to come on every day after 1 am, even if the charge provider randomises (say) 1.30 am to be 1.36 am, when the clock jumps forward from 1 to 2 am, the charger realises it is already past 1.36 am, so immediately switches on. Multiply this by thousands of cars and you have an immediate (to the millisecond), multi-MW demand that the grid is going to struggle to meet.
Of course, good engineers understand that to get around this they must develop software to calculate around this, e.g. by storing intended start times internally using UTC time and then applying the correct random offsets on mornings when DST changes. But even good engineers often get this wrong!
The legislation really needs to include this gotcha so that smart charge manufacturers do not unintentionally create the exact problem the government was trying to solve.
There's also a similar problem when the clocks go back. If the charger knows it should only come on after 1.30 am then end-September just before the clocks go back, it may turn on after 1.30 am for about 30 minutes and then when the local time switches to 1am immediately thousands of chargers switch off because they realise time hasn't yet reached Sunday 1.30 am! This has the potential to overload the grid when demand drops by several MW.
I don't know if you can interview one of the Zappi experts to confirm they understand the problem and how they're designing their system accordingly, and communicating the problem to the government so they can ensure manufacturers cannot comply without solving such software bugs? That would be great!
I think a workaround would be!
Cheap price times changed to say from 3am to whenever instead of from 12.30am to whenever
That way whenever the clocks go forward or backwards shouldn't have the sudden power requirements change
Also if dome of the units have been set up during summertime hours and others were setup during wintertime hours this could help stagger the times EV's charge
Just a thought
Does not apply to Non-smart cables, only chargers with smart capability.
So define peak and non-peak hours. Are these defined in the legislation?
(4) In this regulation-
(a)“default charging hours” means a default period during which the relevant charge point charges a vehicle regardless of what time the vehicle is first connected to it;
(b)“peak hours” means 8am to 11am on weekdays and 4pm to 10pm on weekdays.
I have had to buy a Granny cable as my landlord won’t let me install a proper ev charger as i don’t have a dedicated parking space plus the cable goes across the pavement not that anyone has to walk past it as were semi detached
That's why I got a commando outside and can plug any charger I want...
Point is you won’t be able to buy something that doesn’t compile that plug into this
@@NicolasRaimo Probably, but as long as Tesla sells UMC and other manufacturers of the same everyone should be fine. In any case it is not something you need to buy every year and EV charger is not a space shuttle, it is actually pretty basic device.
@@NicolasRaimo the regs don't apply to a '“non-smart cable” which means "an electrical cable which is a charge point but which is not able to send and receive information" i.e. a granny charger
@@redshift3 a charger with a comando on end counts read section 5 of the regs
A lot of this is good, however a couple of things:
1. will the power company or Octopus type companies contribute to your Wi Fi costs?
2. Having a listening/snooping device on your network is an uncomfortable area, its
fraught with danger for the customer.
Ok at some point in the future Octopus like devices will have be security compliant
and prove it. It sits on your IP network at home and could access network traffic, i.e
any sensitive data sent across a network.
Smart meters cannot access your IP traffic and so cannot intercerpt your sensitive data.
You choosing to use this device is up to you it’s a bonus extra they offer not compulsory
I will keep on using my granny charger as I am not paying the rip off cost of having a charger fitted. 😡😡😡🤠
Why is it a rip off it’s an important safety device charging your car at a high amp rate for a sub stain Period of time faster chargers will allow you to sock more cheap rate electricity
@@NicolasRaimo Yes safety is important but you can get a consumer that can safely handle 100 amps for less than £100 so why should it cost so much for a 30-amp plug. The circuit board will have been put together in china for around £100 and the case probably cost around £30. So why does it cost £600 for the unit and £400 for 2.5 hours fitting it? It should cost less than £600 all in.😡🤠
TEA! Taxed enough already, maybe the government should find ways to spaff less money up the wall on dodgy PPE deals than tax ev charging, why are some older diesels still paying £0 or £20 for road tax? Mental.
This just tells me the restriction and taxation of EV's is started. The government, or anyone else can now turn off your car, refuse to supply fuel or charge as much as they want for the privilege of owning one.
It's more about how our grid cannot deal with this load this is why
I presume they will want to find a way to tax people charging from their own solar too? This would mean charging Vat on charging would raise very little for people charging that way
Unless they made it "EV Duty" on per kwh rather than units used?
It's important to note that this legislation only applies to chargepoints sold as part of your business. So stuff already installed is still OK, and granny chargers aren't suddenly worthless - you can still use them and also sell them secondhand, C2C only.
I think the tax situation is going to be more complex than that - it's going to have to deal with V2G where you charge your car and then discharge it back to the grid without going anywhere. they will want to promote this as it can help with load smoothing, but it's not going to work unless they have some taxback scheme.
So many socket outlets are made in china so quality not always up to standard which can cause the socket to fail due to high current a granny charger works at.
I don't think they'll be able to fairly tax on ev charging. How would they get around all the dumb granny cables and all the dumb or not smart enough EV chargers that have already been installed. I'm in a two EV household so I've got two home chargers and two granny chargers. I don't see how they will ever be able to tax on those in any easy way.
They'll be sending Hodges, the Granny Cable Warden round. He'll instruct you to both turn that light off, and stop using your Granny Cable. The whole notion is frankly laughable......
A granny cable is the best way to limit the charge rate to a trickle, it limits charging to less than most other devices.
Mind you I want to charge mid day when my solar is going to the grid at the moment.
All modern chargers allow you to limit charge rate to low rates, and some even allow you divert what you diverted in solar intelligently
I went for a long drive the day after collecting my Zoe last year. I found that some chargers are not even open to you when you use the app, but the others that do charge slower than you want. I was lucky to get back home without running out as a local business had a free charger, I could use. As soon as they came in stock I got a granny charger and am happy to go into my own garage and charge on the off-peak, when and if I need a charge. Everyone going to charge at the same time is a bit of a myth that get's believed leading to Grid fears. In the same way as they spread the myth that petrol will run out, which causes them all to fill up all of their cars in a big queue of panic buying. Has it ever run out? Getting a charger installed is another flap as it effectively makes your first hundreds of pounds of charge quite expensive.
Trust in the Granny, for me, they can't watch me charge my car. Grid robustness, should be built in, the same way charge poles should not be falling over in any storm.
👍 absolutely spot on 👍
Yes.
The granny charger is a non permanent installation but gives you the user options for charging.
Charging over night at 2.2kw is slow but given how long you leave it on it charges just fine.
Take care and get a spare, M.
Good video and well researched.
Glad you enjoyed it
Major holes in your theory about taxing EV owners using the charger data. A Tesla might be more efficient than an ID3 so why does the ID3 driver pay more ? What if like me an EV owner uses solar ? Suppliers of electricity can not be 100% sure if the electricity you receive is green or not as it comes from the National Grid. Why should EV cars be taxed as much as ICE cars, surely emissions are the most important issue ? All vehicles should pay some road tax but we all know its just a stealth tax and doesn't cover the road infrastructure repair or expansion. Why not charge everyone higher income and NI instead of road tax and why is petrol and diesel so cheap again ?
funny never had to wait till off peak to put petrol in my car
Really informative, thankyou. The idea that Catastrophic Coincidental Load grid failure can be avoided seems sensible precaution - a 'peak use off' mode. One of the talked about 'advantages' of smart meters and smart mains connected devices was the ability to remotely switch off a freezer, fridge etc. to provide 'intelligent' load balancing, so programming this into chargers makes sense.
Granny leads have their place: We have three times visited family and topped up during our stay at family homes that do not have charge points.
Where differential electricity vat (5% vs 20%) is concerned, we cannot see this working:
Firstly, the measurement in the wall mounted charge points are not certified/accurate.
Secondly 63% of all our charging has come from PV panels; We would expect a class action court case if the Government attempted to charge VAT on the electricity generated from a home PV system that had already been subject to VAT.
Finally, if the car is charging at 2kW, the panels are generating 2kW, the house is using 2kW and 2kW is being imported from the grid, it will be a very clever system that can sort out the question 'is the grid electricity in the house at 5% vat, or in the car at 20%vat?'
We are under no illusion; as more EV's and PHEV's arrive, the taxation hole (road fund licence, dinosaur juice duty, vat on servicing, vat on parts etc.) will need to be filled. A flat rate hike in VAT on electricity is a sure vote loser, as it is used to power homes, heat pumps and keep the elderly warm. Road tolls seem equally expensive to monitor/ collect but with L.E.Z and U.L.E.Z zones bring monitored, not impossible on major roads / motorways.
We also suspect that an increase in electricity prices will be countered by a demand to pay competitive rates for PEV small generator exported electricity.
We live in interesting times; we are taking further action to avoid energy costs by adding house batteries to further reduce our reliance on the grid. We suspect many other houses are doing the same....
I will be buying pre June's chargers.as spares
We do not have a net work which can deal with loads like 2 chargers and heat pump as well as the other appliances this is the real truth
Granny cables are still allowed, non smart cables are excluded from the scope of the regulations.
Hi, just make one.
Take care M.
Sounds like the gateway into a Dystopian nightmare to me.
Your statement that there is a small possibility that the government will use EV charging as both or revenue (taxing) and as a means of control in naive … it is inevitable particularly if laws like this pass.
We can agree but some EV owners got VERY angry at me last time I said they will be taxed VERY soon
My charger uses solar and another grid
The taxing per mile based on the charger is a no go, far too many variables and ways around it.
Granny cables are brilliant for me.
Pay per mile the more you use the more you pay simple. Everybody pays 5000 miles equivalent to a basic car tax after you've used your 5000 miles up you pay per mile.
No need to tax electricity.
Do you wanna be PM
The elephant in the room is 2 way charging to allow balance the electric grid and give back the charge later. So then all electric cars would need to put on charge when getting home.
That be fine the software in them would be set accordingly
But only if you had signed up to a V2G scheme. You won't have electricity taken from your car unless you are part of a V2G scheme.....
They can steal my power from my cold dead hands! I paid for it, they can kiss my arse if they want me to give it back so I have to pay for it again.
I don't have any issue with what you say about security risks and some of your comments about coordinated timing of chargers. But I don't believe it is reasonable to talk in terms of "knock out" or "take down" the National Grid.
The National Grid is decorated like a Christmas Tree with physical protection systems. Added to this, the Electricity System Operator carries operating and fast reserve to manage a range of uncertainties. There are different levels of protections for unexpected change of grid frequency, loss of individual circuits or over-loading, short-circuits (lightning strikes are quite common),
A reasonable worst case is automatic load shedding like the 9 August 2019 event, where 1 million customers were cut-off. This was very serious, but not on the scale suggested by your choice of words.
Legislation for lazy people🤔, are they going to accommodate people who work shifts without having to manually faff day by day?
How you mean Mark
@@NicolasRaimo I work 3 shifts which can vary so you can fall into peak hours at times, I have a small battery so during the week charge daily, both car and charger have time options as well as the charger being able to load balance and charge purely from Solar, during the summer evenings given my house faces SW i gain from the solar through the peak period, but under the simple "you can't charge at peak time, but you'd be able to overide daily" it'd soon get a little irritating, I know my charger intheory won't be forced into this but already being a smart charger there is no reason why legislation couldn't alter this remotely. I know it's my own fault for having a small batteried car and would love a bigger battery but hey ho money and all that stuff.
@@markmilligan6616 I didn’t say you can’t charge just that the charger won’t default allow you, there will be a button on charger to override when you need to, however it’s likely your be paying more for that via your bill in future
@@NicolasRaimo I know you didn't, it's like a lot of these things thought out by committee who have no idea of the span of case uses, not their problem has nil effect on them so they don't address those edge cases, I won't be paying for more as I have home storage and solar, but a generic it's peak time default you shouldn't charge now, if really smart would integrate so that only drawing off the grid would be restricted into forcing one to override it, they really need to consult actual users who fall within these periods and get manufacturers to co-operate into designing the software and firmware to be as intelligent as possible.
Tech stuff and government always ends in tears. Smart meters? As we have to tax our ev's each year ,albeit zero rate now, just put back a tax. Say £500 pa for a Tesla and £30 pa for my Kia?
That just wouldn't work John, currently ice cars pay road tax and fuel tax. You'd need to charge MUCH MUCH MORE than what your suggesting and all cars would be equal meaning your Kia would likely pay MUCH more as 1 direct hit rather than spread over the usage
@@NicolasRaimo ah yes, it has to replace VED and fuel duty. You are right, of course, but no less depressing for that!
At my age the next move is into a taxi or rough it with the bus pass.
Loving the heat btw and actually hit 8.2 mpkwh on a local trip. Would give me a theoretical range of 240 miles!
@@johnfaulkner6776 indeed its the fuel duty that's the big tax hole the road tax is much of a nothing really if anything it just allows the DVLA to know which cars are on the road checks for insured cars and MOT's
Much easier to just put a black box in cars and charge per mile.
Exactly. That way, the taxation would move from the fuel itself ( be it fossil fuel or electricity) to actual road usage, which seems fairer to me.
Sounds like kicking the can down the road.
Which can?
@@NicolasRaimo Dara M might mean, the UK should invest forward a robust and up to date electrical grid. Instead trying to use the old infrastructure and squeeze it to the last drop. It has the charm of being efficient and not oversized. But one has to think forward.
@@k_b7341 why build the grid for the peaks that only happen for a few hours a day, people already complaining bills are high
@@NicolasRaimo because one has to think further into the future. An investment into quality always pays off in the long run.
@@NicolasRaimo the Tories on road taxation, grid load and infrastructure renewal (plus avoiding new nuclear, or not). Just get on with National charging network, owned by the state, which isn’t the free market economics of right wing neo-capitalists.
It’ll be a fricking mess like the privatised railways.
Avoiding peak time charging isn’t new. This was announced months ago. You still have the ability to over ride .
Which I mentioned
Phew... Methinks I';; stick with my diesel car....
Which "government" ?
Roll on Scottish Independence.
These "conspiracy theories" about smart meters seem to be proven to be correct.
There's a LOT of assumptions going on here...
If the government is about cutting CO2 (which is nonsense) then EVERY new build should have solar PV and a battery (to avoid stressing the grid) but this would kill energy suppliers.
Don't forget that EV rates make your gas more expensive (probably double)...
This video should surely wake people up to the fact that EV cars as a mass transport system is unsustainable...SMART ANYTHING means you can be switched off, anytime, for any reason...all this about Smart is rubbish: easy way to stop Smart being hacked is not to have it at all. As for Smart being fair...Jesus you're naive. We're in dispute with our supplier to the tune of HUNDREDS of pounds in a six month period...
If this comes in we may have to get rid of our electric car as it will be pricier than our 13 year old Fabia ...
Edit: how will ANYONE be able to afford an EV if all this goes through? They're £10 grand more expensive in the first place and then they'll be more expensive to run, then there will be a 'pollution' tax to get rid of the battery etc etc...as well as the usual nonsense of remote chargers: unreliable, hard to use, inaccessible, not enough of them etc...I like our EV, but it's looking like the naysayers are right...
Nick.please don't keep villainising Granny cables, they have a very important place in the EV ownership cycle.
The crap that was shown when charging on on a 13 amp circuit was mind bogglingly dumb, the sockets are fully designed and rigorously tested to safely output 13amps not the 10amps granny chargers use.
Simply pointing a FLIR camera at the socket any saying its dangerous is complete bollocks - go point it at most devices and cables and "be alarmed" at the result.
Don't be the dis-information channel.
Your totally wrong 13amp sockets are not designed or tested for the unsupervised hours a granny charger is on for, They do make a special designed EV rated one that is but again it’s missing all the safety devices there’s no place for granny cables when I made the video and now in 2023 there is no excuse
The legal implications of the Government attempting to somehow restrict electricity supplies to people's homes is frankly ridiculous. Purely on the basis that consumers they pay their bill, any court would rule it was illegal and immoral. And who in their right mind would begin charging an electric car at 5 or 6pm, when the cost of doing so is at it's highest? The vast majority of UK electric car owners charge their cars through the night, when there is huge spare capacity in the grid. The National Grid themselves have said the UK's grid is at 60% capacity, and there are no issues. You're just scaremongering... What about those whom have medical or other needs? You can't just switch power off willy nilly. The whole concept is just utterly bonkers. You seem to have completely overlooked the fact that if we're all driving electric cars, then we won't need the UK's oil refineries producing 14 million gallons of petrol and 11 million gallons of diesel per day, each gallon requiring around 6 to 8kw of electricity to produce, will we? That alone would free up enough capacity in the grid to charge millions of EV's.....
Brian this is legislation it comes into law in weeks… no scaremongering it’s just facts, yes the majority of us charge off peak however that’s not to say the rest of EV buyers will be as savy so these rules are in place. The legislation is online for you to read
The new legislation is all about control & taxes PERIOD.
As an Electrician, i can tell you a car charger is no different to heating up water with an immersion heater, only HMRC needs SMART because there missing revenue from the petrol station.
PS, NEVER GET A CONTROL METER, they know when kettle washing machines tumble drying car charger etc, and can adjust rates for them all. This will happen before 2030.
If you unfortunately have a SMART meter either A. Have it removed or B. Have it converted to a dumb meter, it’s your right as a consumer of energy & does not effect your tariff.
Would you like to borrow my tin foil hat? Immersion heaters are not all that common and their usage behaviour is very different
@@NicolasRaimo it ain’t tin foil mate, i know what I’m talking about.
The water heater compared to granny charger was a reference to the power used 3kw.
@@ecoterrorist1402 As far as I'm aware there are no present metering systems that can remotely tell the difference between an immersion water heater, stand alone room heater/heaters or a car charging with either a granny cable or a commando lead (16/32A). The government will go for the low hanging fruit which will be new networked EV chargers and may after a long time look at the previous dumb charging methods. It all boils down to cost effective means of charging control/measurement for tax purposes which means new EV chargers will initially bear the burden of first charging control and then tax revenue. If the DNO look for constant loads it is very easy to multi time loading on a dumb commando socket with a timer/current control to mimic a temp control system but as I say they will go for the easy lower hanging fruit of new networked EV charging systems and the non technical public. I can see older EV's becoming very sought after for fuel tax evasion and cheap running costs if the fuel duty is placed on metered EV charging because the next government regulatory move is to make all future EV's only communicate with official (taxed) networked chargers.
So you live further out of a town/city so that you can buy a home you can afford but then you are crippled by a per mile tax, great
How would this be any difference to fuel duty on petrol and diesel cars?
@@NicolasRaimo I would rather pay a set amount rather than per mile.
@@MJF510 ICE cars also have that, in form of road tax, we need to face it as EV owners, we will pay road tax and we will pay a set amount of duty on kwh or per mile using a few methods I've done another video in reply to comments in this video be out in a week
@@NicolasRaimo I think that you are right, hopefully it does not take into account kW charged via solar.
Separately from my other comment, thinking the matter through, I have to disagree that the government will use data sent over the Internet from chargers to "tax" EVs. All that people need to do to avoid this is to use a charger that is not connected to the Internet - the black market will thrive if sale of them is banned, & if sale of them isn't banned, then why on earth would anyone choose a (probably safer, admittedly) approved charger and opt thereby to pay tax on their EV.
EVs will likely be charged, IMHO, by either mileage travelled (compulsory annual check) or by number plate recognition on roads throughout the country. Also, they will have to reintroduce road tax charges for EVs - they actually cause *more* wear on the road as they are heavier.
EV's should be taxed by means of the distance covered between MOT's. The first 3 years should be taxed at a lower rate and estimated or the driver/owner should have to report it with photographic proof.
What if you do much mileage abroad? You should not be paying UK tax for that.
And they told us the grid could cope... I'll be sticking with my diesel, costs more but I am free to fill up when I want.
The grid can cope, it’s amount managing it, if everyone turns up at petrol station same time you can’t fill up, if your car is parked on your drive when you get home why do you care when it starts
There are no problems with the grid. The National Grid themselves have said the UK's grid is at 60% capacity. In fact the National Grid were one of the organisations whom lobbied the Government to bring *forward* the ban on the sale of new ICE cars and vans from 2035 to 2030. The National Grid are anticipating around 9 million EV's on Britain's roads by 2030, and around 25 to 30 million by 2040..... And both the Head of the National Grid (whom incidentally drives an EV) and his Head of Operations Development, appeared in front of a Parliamentary Committee around 3 years ago, specifically to field and answer questions regarding the viability of the UK's grid, and the transition to EV use. The video of that very meeting is still here on TH-cam, should anyone wish to see it......
I have no doubt the grid is at 60 percent capacity, as in loads the cables will carry. However I was thinking more about the actual electricity travelling down those cables, we already import electricity as when the wind doesn't blow we don't generate enough. When these other countries also get big EV uptake they will not have spare capacity to export. However some EV chargers where installed where I live and not turned on for months as they realized the cable in the street could not handle the load, so that had to be replaced by by the distribution company.
@@SteveN-pw4dj we also export energy as well as import them lines work both ways. Your argument on grid lines is partly true on a local level however some areas do need upgrading this isn’t true for all and the grid as a supplier can cope, also electric cars could be a solution as well, cars spend 90% of their life not moving, new v2g systems means we could charge these cars up during offpeak and discharge during peak, this for customer would mean paying say 10p a kwh to charge but during peak being paid £1 a kwh
That sounds like a very good reason not to buy an electric car.
Why’s that?
@@NicolasRaimo Well I suppose I'm not of the mind-set of a far-left ideolog who believes everything the government does is to be obeyed while on the knees.
Giving someone, particularly the someone, who often has tyrannical before their name, power beyond which is absolutely necessary,
So in the UK, my dad doesn't have the right to defend me with the weapons that the government has, so we get the police to do the protecting, the police allows rapes to take place because it maybe phobic to stop them, it may be, this surprises you, if so, you really shouldn't be talking about giving more power to big brother, albeit Kw, likewise, if you have a smart meter fitted to your house you will be mandated by virtue you can't do anything about it to be part of any rolling blackouts that may be deemed necessary. Keep in mind your smart-meter can isolate you as an individual; I assure you none of the 'important' people will be part of the rolling blackouts. What you do not do is give a stranger the responsibility to protect your daughter, decide when and if she can have the power to switch a light on to drive away the darkness, or how much she pays on that day's whim to consume a kW. The reason why is because stupidity isn't a virtue but something to be avoided.
Forget about wind power, and solar panels, build nuclear power stations whereby the electricity is so cheap it's hardly worth billing for. Keep in mind the exuberant standing charge imposed by big brother could have been used to build just such stations.
What we need are smart people, not smart meters/charges because the latter aren’t smart they are controlling.
If the infrastructure can’t support the charging of electric cars, do not promote electric cars until the infrastructure is in place.
You are giving too much power to the potential tyrannical. You may think tyrannical, extreme but 100 million in one century who died in gulags and detention centres didn’t. All that was needed, was enough useful fools to take sanity to insanity.
I understand as a male you are drawn to gadgets and things but do not let this be your downfall.
Is your hat tin foil lined?
@@NicolasRaimo Is that the level of your intellect?
have another go but try to engage with the points in my post even if you didn't like the outcome.
maybe start simple as then you won't need to use ad hominem arguments.
So is it wise to be promoting electric cars without the infrastructure to support them? keep in mind you would be taking up the 'bandwidth" of the grid to replace your journey from petrol/diesel to an already overloaded electrical infrastructure .i.e you are putting all your eggs in one basket and the government has the handle of the basket.
so within 1 mile of me, I have 5 petrol stations. when my dad fills up his car that has no bearing on the status of our smart meter i.e. we could be within the rolling blackout but still be able to use the facilities of the car since it's not dependent on the smart meter and grid.
@@sarahclark5447 I can't argue with someone who's so into conspiracy and incorrect information it be like playing chess with a pigeon, it would knock all the pieces over poo on the broad and strut around like it won anyway
Is your video completely wrong and misleading, ie fake news, as the title suggest? As it stands, it is not worth listening to just looking at the title, I am just not sure if you are trying to be controversial or completely wrong?
Watch the video and read the legislation linked rather than leave a comment which hasn’t listened or read
This video for you Pawel... th-cam.com/video/KMg4Tm1MKSs/w-d-xo.html
another reason NOT to buy an EV, they are more expensive to buy for a start, are they any greener over their lifetime when you include materials to build them ,recycle them and the electric consumed to charge them using fossil fuels
Cost more, yes at present.Lifetime greenness, Not true, myth dispelled many times.
Michael, your final point regarding the electricity to charge EV's from fossil fuel is invalid. Exactly the same fossil fuels are used to generate the electricity used to refine the fossil fuel *your* vehicle uses! The EV scores it's brownie points by no longer adding to the pollution at street level in our towns and cities...... And since you mentioned the "materials" to build electric cars, I'll mention Volkswagen as an example. VW build their electric vehicles in three huge new factories, spread over three Continents, all of which have a zero carbon footprint, and are powered by 100% renewable energy. The vehicles themselves use a high percentage of both recycled and plant based material in their construction - dashboards, seat material, carpets, door cards etc. Even the final paint finish on the cars is plant based. Volkswagen were also among the first car manufacturers to build their own EV battery recycling plant, located in Zwickau in Eastern Germany. VW were also the first car maker to sign up to the legally binding Paris Climate Agreement, which obliges signatories to reach zero carbon by 2050. And certainly right now many electric vehicles do cost more. But that doesn't seem to be the barrier to adoption you're suggesting it might be, because Volkswagen have sold their complete EV production for *all* of 2022, and into 2023.......Likewise, Kia have sold their entire production quota for their EV6 model for the next *three years* in some markets......
"Mainstream people". How condescending.
Its the term used for people who haven't adopted EVs yet... anyone owning an EV currently is counted as a first adopter