There's now a new G99 fast track process that comes into force in Nov 22 for domestic customers who can now get up to 32A per phase connected in a 10-day fast track process.
My experience of owning an array on a north facing roof it that generates 50% of a comparable south facing roof - averaged over a year. A couple of points: 1) on cloudy days with diffuse lighting, the direction matters not a jot. North is as good as South. 2) In the summer, when the sun is high in the sky, the north array is almost as good as a south. So the 50% is averaged out over the year. One final point is that using Solar Edge equipment minimises shading - well worth investigating further.
I have a 4kW south facing array & a separate 3kW north facing one. On an annual basis the north one produces about 50% of the output of the south facing one
@@RoaldHemel35 I understand that, I was pro- rating to make a meaningful comparison. Also, the 3kW system is oversized input to output. With Solar Edge you can oversize by 155% input to output. But the extra capacity is quite recent & just quoting numbers wouldn’t help due to the context being wrong.
We've just been told by the local DNO (SP Energy Networks) that we have to fit a 12kW export limiter to a 33kW array on a large leisure centre because of local 'network limitations' despite the building having an incoming 3 phase, 200A per phase supply. The place is open every day from 8am to 9pm using a large amount of power in internal high bay lighting and air conditioning. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Seems like somebody is terrified of losing kWh sales.
Just for completeness - if you don't apply for, or are refused anything larger than 3.68kW, it only means you cannot output more than that back to the grid. It does not mean you can't fit a system capable of generating more than that. You could fit a ~10kW system which charges suitably sized batteries and force the inverter to only output 3.68kW once the battery is at 100%. I stick by my advice that if you intend to fit solar, put as many panels that produce as much combined power onto as much roof space as you have available. Do it once and do it as big as possible. If you have to budget, then pay less for a smaller inverter or battery, then aim to upgrade it when your situation changes.
You've done your homework mate, well done, I've been through all this myself, now Ive got 4.5kw on my south facing roof (unshaded) a 5kw hybrid inverter and 2 10kw batteries, for my small terranced house it's overkill I know but through the summer I'm making nearly £100 a month in exports on Octopus Agile Outgoing, hence I've built up £400+ in credit which should be more than enough to get me through the winter, I'm basically off-grid and have been for over a year now, I've also had a switchover fitted in case of power cuts, I did have an EPS but I want the option of powering the entire house. Great video and much appreciated. 🤜🤛
Find your local regulators and hug them. There are local governments with vested interests in competing technologies - such as Tennessee Valley Authority, USA (hydroelectric power). They do not buy any form of distributed power. I would install enough PV to be making house payments with excess power if they did.
Abou, can I have your advice please? I do have south facing roof, no shading at all. The maximum number of panels I can go is 8. Looking at 5kWh inverter and at the moment only 1 5kWh battery. Can you share your set up? Brand and where you live please?
There is now also what is known as G99 fast track. This allows a G98 approved inverter to be used with its export to the grid monitored and controlled via a G100 approved device so that it can generate more power, but will vary its output so that its export to the grid is limited to an agreed value - normally the 16A/3.68kW output. This allows the installed solar system to generate addition output if you are using it in your own home, so works well if you have EVs, battery storage, water heater and/or heating that uses electricity rather than gas. If an installer does not know about this solution, it maybe worth looking for an installer that does as it indicates they do not keep up with changes in the market place.
@@robinlander1158 Each DNO does their own thing when it comes to fees, so you need to check with your local DNO. The point of G99 fast track is to turn the process into a form and tick box process - so any fees charged should be far lower than those made for a full G99 application.
Just to clarify, if I had 10kW of panels, 10kWh of DC batteries, and an 8kW G100 approved hybrid inverter, I'd be able to do the G99 fast track (G99 A1.2) as the export can be limited to 3.68kW?
@@AphexTwin99999 Logically yes, but I think you would need a registered installer to add the export monitoring device, connect everything up and do the required registration and paperwork.
I have a 14 panel Solar edge system on a south facing garage roof in NE England. Peak array output in optimum conditions is upto 5KW which is obviously way more than domestic consumption most of the time so I also have a 10KWh battery. On good days in the summer the battery can be full by lunchtime after which I lose power into the grid. This prompted me to get a hybrid car when I changed this summer and I have a Volvo V60 which has its own 10KWh battery. This works for me as I work mainly from home so the car can be charged during the periods of peak generation and use the power previously exported into the grid. From November to February however production falls dramatically which means that the battery spends long periods at its minimum charge setting of 11% which is optimised for summer use. This is where I find Solar edge limiting as I would like to have control of the battery draw setting so it could be set higher in the winter and if combined with an isolator be used as a cover for power cuts rather than as a generation extender in the far more productive summer months.
I give my customers the choice, I do G99 applications for free. I’ve had 3 turned down for nonsensical reasons with National Grid. If you’re trying to use export limitation on a system above 3.68 then you still need a G99 unfortunately It’s not a lie to oversize a system with a smaller inverter as long as it’s in the contract We should be allowed 7kw as standard and less red tape
I think they should take a FEE to submit the paperwork, but if they can't figure out how to properly get the form approved then they refund the money. Otherwise, they have no accountability to actually jump through the extra hoops to get it approved
My personal experience of asking for a 28 panel 11kW array with a 10kW battery, has been very straightforward. The installer didn't blink. They explained the DNO permission situation and have submitted the application to the DNO without any deposit. I've already made sure that the cutout fuse was upgraded to 100amps and had a smart meter fitted. I already have a Zappi installed for my EV. My roof is almost directly East West but has quite a shallow pitch, so both roofs get sun for well over half the day. I can almost spit as far as the substation and there isn't much PV installed locally.
Very lucky if you are near a substation or pole transformer (I’m talking within 50m), as most beyond that would struggle to get more than 8kW of anything allowed without works.
You can have 32A feed-in (~7.3kW) on the G99 SGI-3 track which involves somebody checking if the mains can actually take that much power so it takes a few months to go through.
You do a great job explaining at a decent pace so that I don’t get bored and stop listening and the info is spot on. A lot of videos on TH-cam take so long to say basic stuff and I find they miss all the information that you’ve mentioned. Keep up the good work 👏👏👏
Almost all solar systems installed today will have a requirement for battery storage by the customer due to the increase in electricity costs and the poor SEG payments. Once you add a battery to a system it will more than likely exceed 3.68kw hence the requirement for G99 approval. The G99 process isn’t that much of a deal tbh (not in wales anyway) it’s 1 form, circuit diagram including the inverter/s sizes and the ENA type tested information from the website. The last one took me around and hour to start and submit and approval was sent within 3 weeks.
Great video mate. Had applied for a big system with big inverter and submitted. Their answer was that their wires were not going to be able to cope if I exported entire production; nothing was said in case if I imported same amount... that it should melt down as well. Long story short, installers reduce a bit panels and reduce inverter.
I live in the US and was amazed at 3.68kw systems. Most systems here are 10kw or more. The reason they frown on us building larger arrays is it eats into their profits. Summers are very hot and winters can be very cold. So large arrays are needed.
Possibly you have larger roofs on average? The cost of scaffolding is also offputting here and its' fixed - you can't cheapen that part of it - all you can do to save a bit is have less panels.
We've got a South facing garden, 3 months ago we had a 6kw system fitted along with a 5kw battery. Today we have been generating 5.6kw, our battery is full, last month our gas and electric bill was £18. As long as you are savvy with the way you use it, it can work to your advantage. Our system cost £8k. The money saved and the decrease in direct debit, this has been used as over payments for our loan.
When the FIT scheme started I asked an electrical engineer I knew well if the scheme was too good to be true. He told me “no but it can’t last”. We had converted some barns that we had on the farm and applied to the DNO (naively as it turned out) to put a 16 amp string in for each barn. We were restricted to systems less than 11kws in total unless we contributed to an infrastructure upgrade. We went with the reduced scheme but when up and running we couldn’t understand why the PVs cut out when we had full sun. We discovered that being in a rural area, rather than strengthening the network when new homes were added, the voltage was increased so that homes at the end of the line didn’t have a supply falling below the legal voltage. We on the other hand had a supply which exceeded the legal limit when the sun was at its best. Adjustments were made to correct the problem. We also completed our original scheme but not until the rules were changed on G99 some 2 to 3 years later- very close to the end of the FIT scheme
The original FIT was messed up from an economic perspective and your electrical engineer friend was quite right. The FIT rate in the early days was set higher than the price per kWh the power company could charge for the electricity you generated for them which they sold on to consumers. This meant that for every kWh of power you generated by solar and fed into the national grid, the power/electricity company sold it on and made a loss. So who was paying for that loss? It was being covered by other electricity consumers and possibly government subsidies issued to the power companies. Why should Joe Public incur a cost and that money be paid to consumers generating electricity from solar panels? It was obviously unfair, and the economics was completely upside down as far as the power companies go.
Having more array is obviously better for poorer weather days, but once you made the decision to have battery backup you can continue pushing power (at the 3.65KW rate) into the evening/night. You could let your battery system allow a discharge (say) to 80% whilst still maintaining enough for your own usage/backup. I also think that east/west arrays should be wired through separate charge controllers to allow for optimum MPPT.
Over the many years I've had solar I've noticed that often the day starts cloudy and that burns off later to open up to clear skies. So I'd suggest that if your roof is only east and west and your budget is only for one side then you might want to give west preference.
Just do 4kw grid tie to sell or keep for future purposes and another 4kw of battery charging off grid for your immediate needs. I just picked up 12kw of amorphous silicone panels which are perfect for anyone in the northern hemisphere or who does not have a south facing roof or who does not adjust the angle for the time of year.
The answer to this is to campaign for the G99 to be for larger systems. If this situation is causing there to be less solar fitted, then it's completely counterproductive to expanding green energy use. Sounds to me like somebody somewhere wants to discourage people going completely off grid.
Seems that's coming in November this year rasing the limit to 32A from 16A (still requires g99 but 10 day fast track as long as install size not larger then 32A, witch I guess is 7.5KW ish)
I am Australian and i had to think twice about comments regarding North facing rooves - that is the normal here of course because we are in the opposite hemisphere. We still get a benefit from South facing rooves in most of the country (Tasmania might be problematic)
There is another reason. Most houses could carry enough solar to run their entire house with battery support. The problem with this there is no tax income for the government. No VAT, no business taxes, nothing. You make your own power, store it and use it. Government earns nothing. The government don't want renewables unless they control the income stream. Great video, thank you.
Utter nonsense, Solar and battery installs are VAT free, heat pump installs have a £7500 Government grant and are VAT free (although the installer will likely bump the price up on both). I installed solar and batteries, the government put up no barriers to me doing that, the only one you could argue is a barrier is the MCS requirement that suppliers insist on so you get paid for export, but you can install without this. There are also so planning and/or permitted development rules, but these have been relaxed last year. Also most house could not install enough solar to run with out the grid, even with batteries. I've a big house, I currently have 8.74kWp of solar and 29 kWh of batteries, in the winter it is not enough by a long shot, I'm installing another 6.5kWp of panels, it still won't be enough for the winter, BUT my summer exports already cover our full electric and gas bills. Some of the things I mentioned have changed for the better since your comment, but it sounds to me that you have no idea what you are talking about!
Your are spot on about the benefits of east and west orientated arrays as mine are split 60/40 to provide most power when needed, maximise on-site consumption and avoid export, although power drops off sharply during winter. (but still with some useful generation) An Eddi management unit diverts excess production to heat the water tank immersion for 9/10 months of the year and the electric car charger scoops up most of the rest. The arrays total just over 3 KW peak which meets my needs for most of the year and avoids significant export. A tip to anyone considering investing in solar is to design your system around your daily pattern of usage where possible. A smart meter should generate a chart showing this if you have an online account with your energy provider.
Well explained. I had solar fitted in April. I am very pleased so far. I didn't go for a battery at the time, but the threat of power cuts makes me think I should have.. On the plus side Octopus are paying me 15p per kwh for export.
Adding a battery at a later date is easy to do. The Givenergy 9.4kwh battery(7.5 kwh usable) costs about £5000(with installation) from what I could find out in research(I have no intentions of buying one, was just curious, at least until maybes I win the lottery and can possibly buy my flat).
Not in the UK. My experience is with a 2kW inverter (because that is what we could afford at the time many years ago). A few years after install I checked with the manufacturer about what the OVER supply warranty was for the inverter. It was 100%. So I could install up to 4kW of panels. I actually added up to 3.8kW. There are times during the day when the inverter "flat lines" (can't use all the panel power). No problem. The rest of the day the system benefits from the EXTRA panels so whenever the sun shines the inverter is working as hard as possible within warranty limits.
There will be some way to detect the flat line or near the flat line and then start dumping the rest of your power to the hot water tank, that way you use most of your power. Not sure if you guys have hot water tanks, a lot of homes in the UK were built with them.
@@PF-gi9vv Flat line is at max inverter output so that power (above the flat line) has no where to go. Hot water is already direct solar (not electric).
@@Michael_CS615 I understand flat line, I don't think you get what I'm saying, theres always away to use the power produced by the panels even if the inverter is maxed out. A second inverter would be easiest for you.
I was told by mulitple installers that my local DNO blanket refuse all domestic applications for larger inverters, I was basically told 99% will have spent the money for G99 application for nothing. I have 19 panels over E S and W roofs with a 3.6Kw inverter. Very occasionally in the middle of the summer it clips once the batteries are full so it's not really an issue but if I had a larger south roof it would be. One installer told me they even have difficulty getting industrial 3 phase installs approved over 5kw per phase in some areas. Seems to me if that's true the grid company are just avoiding having the number of solar installs build up to the point where they have to do infrastructure upgrades. The grid should be upgraded to cope with the max local roof capacity by the industry (which cost will be carried by all consumers not the individual Solar plant owner, if the locally generated solar power was properly priced into the kwh price everyone including people without solar would benefit, so why should the solar plant owners carry the full bill?) government should be subsidizing grid upgrades as well as part of net zero policy.
It shouldn't matter what the total array is, just the size of inverter that is connected to the grid as feed in So you could have a 4kw array with a 3.68KW inverter that is grid facing, and a 4KW array feeding a battery charger and grid isolated inverter, the 2 arrays would be totally separate, you may use the isolated one first to charge your car, or to power things during the winter, then use the grid attached one mainly as feed in (to offset grid use bills), or when the isolated one is low.
It's all about the local wiring coping with the export to the grid. In my case, I said "bollocks to that", installed my own panels and set the system to 0 export. (I couldn't get an export tariff on a DIY install anyway, but for the pennies a kw they give it's just not worth all the expense of paying someone to do the install and give me the certificate required to export).
Living in San Diego, is see many undersized units around. I think this is primarily because the electric company wants thier users to pay at least a moderate amount of money to them. The best way to go is to use panels which have inverters attached. Then you can do a basic install, get your approval, then add more panels yourself as needed. This has helped, as our electrical needs rose dramatically with addition of two electric cars.
Weird logic on SDGE. I give supply their grid 7KW, they sell it to someone else and still get a Meter/distribution charge from both of us. That is one of the reason to separate the consumption from the Meter-distribution charges that are now common on utility bills.
That makes a lot of sense. Companies are eager to do what the government rewards them for, and are hesitant to do anything that the government makes challenging.
Surely you only need these forms etc if you intend to feed into the grid. If your 'off grid' or have no intention of selling/feeding into the grid via a smart meter and have interlock switching no forms/permits etc are needed.
Really useful video. We have just fitted an 8.5kW array. Five neighbours have solar and others are now interested in doing the same. I have just warned them that they may risk the bill or being refused anything over the 3.68kW threshold.
One of my neighbours fitted his own solar system to the roof of his flat roofed garage, the council made him take it down because it wasn't installed by an approved installer, he wasn't feeding into the grid, he owned his house, but because he didn't use an installation company that's probably owned by corrupt officials, he had to take it all down
Probably was a council house (he likely didn't actually own the house) so can't just change the structure of the house without permission, on your own personal house if your roof is covered in tiles or solar not council job (power company if you didn't have aprovel if connected to grid)
@@leexgx I was about to say the same, if you own your own home, it's not covered by planning unless it's covered by some sort of protection order or listed building Of course solar evacuated tubes have to be connected via an accredited installer to connect it up
I asked my installer to apply for a 5kW inverter and 8kWp panels via G99. They agreed, I had to pay 25% deposit but it only took 4 weeks which was less than the lead time for the panels. I’m glad I did, having more panels means in winter I get more electricity towards my daily needs and in summer it can still cope with the full output and I can feed the excess into a water heater and electric car during the peak generation periods.
@@NicolasRaimo Yes I’ve got 10kWh of batteries I saw your video on deals thank you. I’m still waiting for EDF to install a smart meter before I switch to Octopus Flux. They’re really taking a long time despite lots of phone calls which is frustrating but I understand it’s better to get the existing supplier to install the meter and then switch?
@@BAC_Mono it’s likely quicker but nothing stoping you moving and asking octopus to do it you could try an email and ask time scale for install with them if you switched? Please consider using my referral link if you do switch it really helps me carry on making videos
@@BAC_Mono thanks a lot means a lot! I have a huge back catalogue of videos and some great interviews on their also including one with Greg Jackson ceo of octopus energy
Although I do not live in the UK, I would think that they should offer you the option to split off any additional power through a separate off-grid invertor to your own set of batteries (like a Bluettti E500 pro), which you can use for whatever you like. This would save the paperwork and you still get to use the power
Not sure about other tariffs, but mine allows full 100% usage of all electricity produced AND FULL payment for all generated power. The big issue is that the amount generated would have to be monitored and only that amount used to charge the batteries, otherwise grid energy would be used to charge the battery when solar output drops.
@@hughmarcus1 It would make sense to leave your grid connected solar without a battery and have a battery for your off-grid solar. You can then use that excess power for charging EVs or have a separate heat pump. In the UK, if you have a MCS heat pump, it means you can't have cooling in the summer (you can probably hack it post-install but not technically legal). If you had one of those, it would make sense to get a second heat pump (or several mini-splits) and have cooling in the summer and some additional heating in the colder months. Obviously the additional heat pump(s) would be connected to the off-grid setup. You could also heat a hot water tank using the off-grid solar/battery which would directly offset your on-grid costs you would have spent for heating water. Finally, such a setup means that you would have backup heating in case your primary heat source broke down and you could continue having heat during an outage (in the UK, you can't use your solar/battery in a power outage). So one more reason to remove your gas meter, save on paying standing charges and can properly insulate your wall where the meter was!
What I have found, and you have picked up on, is that the old cable infrastructure is not up to the job and can't keep up with the greening. Also they would like to keep selling you electricity. We have 9.2 KW on an east / west array and at the limit the DNO will permit. However, my installer tells me they could install more panels but with a limiter to restrict the export to grid. Having two EV's, batteries and water heating this is a very tempting option.
@@stuartwilliams8663 Many thanks for the information Stuart. Good to get the real picture. Information I had came from a guy at an exhibition I attended.
That's crazy! I can't believe how burocratic the UK has become. I just installed a 5.4kWh system in Spain and the process is just as simple as for the 3.68kWh system in the UK. Spain is a very burocratic country already, but below 10kWh is considered "home use".
In the USA and with Texas Homeowners’ insurance, if your panel array generates MORE POWER THAN YOU USE IN A CALENDAR YEAR, State Farm Insurance will not cover your solar panels in the event of storm damage. Agent said they audit your YEAR’S POWER BILLS IF YOU ARE GRID TIED BEFORE PAYING OUT A PENNY.
We have 32 solar panels on the roof, a battery storage system and an electric car. We NEVER draw power from the grid at peak tariffs and are currently paying 7.5 pence per unit at night. About 35% of the car charging is from solar and this means the car is costing is approximately 1.5 pence per mile. We are very satisfied with the installation - the only annoyance was the 20% VAT on all the components.
Interesting as this is what happened to me, we got the basic system with battery storage and when I asked about more panels there was much sucking in of cheeks and comments about additional costs etc. I guess with solar being relatively new to most electrical companies they only want to fix the ‘quick fix’ set up….lesson learned
I have 6 panels and 12 panels feeding my inverter 3.6kw . I have one 6.5kw battery connected. Depending on sun and use it gets to 100% early afternoon. I then connect a second 6.5 kw battery to charge , if it’s low, taking off the 1st battery. In the summer the battery lasts all night and is about 5-10% left. If the next day is cloudy I can put on my second 6.5kw battery to run appliances . Dishwasher, washing machine, etc don’t all consume electric at the same time so my use from the grid is about 0-1 unit a day.
Should be an intermediate form between tiny array (G98) and huge solar farm (G99) for arrays upto say 10-20kw. I agree everyone should be charged a small amount to upgrade the grid not just the last person
Just changed my mind and had more Panels fitted(10 +a extra 4), luckily they installed a 5kw Inverter has I said I wanted more panels my DNO though is taking forever to get approved
I have just mounted the panels on a trailer, and they can be directed to the sun by hand or automatically,just use a teeth ring on the trailer, and you dont have to turn the trailer itself.I m off grid,so I do as I please since 2017.
Wait, I downloaded the G99 form from the ENA test type register for my Solis 5kW inverter and made the DNO application online. Job done. No deposit/cost. My DNO is UK Power Networks.
Honestly I think there is another answer here. My solar is 7.7kw east west, but I have a hybrid inverter that will only supply the 3.68kw on the grid connection, however it will also allow the DC batteries I have connected to take the rest of the 7.7kw, i.e. a further 3.5kw, as a result although i might be throwing away some energy on days where the batteries are full and the array is generating over the 3.68kw, this is not all that often. The other nice capability of the inverter is that it has a UPS/EPS power connection, which is effectively on the non-grid side of the inverter and so I have some of the lower power but permanently on equipment connected on that, so it doesn’t count towards the grid load and also it stays on when the grid is off, which as I am rural and fed from overhead lines, can happen in storms. On the topic of the video, i agree with the comments on the DNO in part, although in a rural location, I have seen that grid export can significantly increase the grid voltage, in my case 3KW export increases the voltage by around 4volts
Does your DNO know you have 7kw of solar and accepted that your inverter will stay capped to g98 16A limit, my understanding was g99 was required regardless if the inverter was capped to g98 16A (default)
@@leexgx Hi Lee, the company installing the solar managed the MCS certificate and the DNO notification. I expect it would be G98 as the technical guidance for DNO registration only refers to 16A per phase and the inverter I have is designed to only output 16A, i.e. it’s not physically capable of more than 16A to the grid. The hybrid nature of the inverter (it’s a LuxPower LXP3600) means that the inverter can handle 7kw of solar generation with the remaining power (as required) being used to charge batteries (DC ones not on the grid side of the inverter). I mentioned previously that I have 7.7kw of panels, however they are east-west facing and the installers assured me in writing that their analysis was that peak noon time generation would not reach higher than 7kw due to the east-west nature of the panels and having seen some very sunny days this last summer I think the largest generation I saw was around 6.1kw. Have a look at the “Distributed Generation Connection Guides: G98 for Single Premises” from Energy Networks Association it has some guidance on the 16A per phase. I hope that’s helpful
at last some one with some sence about east west facing roof. On our house we have 5.2kw of PV panels on both the east and on the west, giving 10.4kw total. It fills the batteries very quickly for nine months of the year and we have exported 11Mw's every year. Thats mega watts we export not kilowatts.. For power generation over a nine month stretch east west works. For the 3 winter months it would be usfull for some south facing PV panels, but the money I get for the exported energy pays for my winter use.
I have panels on my North side and I live in Phx, Arizona. ( 29 degrees north ). During mid summer where the sun tracks directly overhead I get the same power draw as the south side. In winter it's only 40% of the southern side , but during winter I make way more than I use. So for me it makes sense during summer to have these panels since I can use up to 80kW per day ( I can generate up to 40kW ) so every bit of energy generated is used.
I had a 6kWh battery fitted in August. It had taken more than 9 months for my G99 to be approved. I have 3.4kW of solar. The most I could fit on the roof at the time (7yrs ago). The inverter can handle 4.5kW. My September electricity bill was half the year before. October is looking the same. Over the year I generate more than I use. Overall I'm pleased with the setup. Not so pleased with the wasted Summer.
The limitations are engineering not admin. Any network hates solar - it provides maximum power when the network doesn't need it it & none when it does.
The bit missing is that the sheer cost of installing all of this will take you around 23 years to really get the money back, but by then you have been through 2 inverters and a replacement battery pack
So that’s on top of the high installation cost so when do you actually get your money back, I was to,d I would be negative £1400 so other than the saving the planet comments what’s the point
@@uksupporter8867 If you don't pay over the odds, and you pick the right kit for your use and get on the right tariffs, payback is easily under 10 years, more like 7 or so.
If your Power Generating Module is less than 50 kW three-phase or 17 kW single-phase, then you can use a simplified application form (Annex A.1 of EREC G99)
We have a rule here made by the utility companies over here in the USA where if you go over 10 kw you are classified as a commercial system and t hey impose a monthly fee on you. This is their way of telling you that they do not want any thing that will horn in on their profits.
I agree - I want the option. Currently I won’t have solar panels as it won’t/can’t supply all my electricity. In fact it’s a dismal percentage so I can’t see the point in it.
We have 5KW south and 5KW split east/west. The east west array is good for the early morning and late evening, it adds an extra 1 hour way where energy is generated. One point, with more people having local battery storage, all in all there is actually LESS export and the local grid has less power being pulled during the day. However, most people with batteries do charge them during cheap rate, assuming they are on a cheap rate tariff. Never regretted going as large as possible on the solar, saving us a fortune.
interested in this idea, we have economy 10, old meter, so currently no SEG payments. The (costly) battery idea would be more appealing if I was convinced we would be able to get this E10 deal in the future.
@@vickypos6 I am not sure, but meter replacement and tariff is the choice of the consumer. I have seen nothing that states you must be on a specific import meter if you have solar and/or batteries. If you have an e10 setup, then I do not believe anything changes. I might be wrong mind !
You could have led with, the max size of solar setup a small firm will install is limited by the Grid authority planning process. 4KW is an easy G99 form, anything bigger and you need a tome filled in AND risk getting turned down. Even if you have money and a huge roof. Just like construction planning. HOWEVER - you can limit your grid feed in to 4KW, and keep the rest for a large battery pack
It begs the question, why would you trust an installer to give you the best advice or service? They're not exactly rocket scientists, on a par with double glazintg companies! Stay away from exporting to the grid, get battery storage and get what you need or can use.
I am having a roof survey in a week, so I will be paying attention to the size of inverter that they are offering. Without this heads up I would have been completely clueless about this issue.
Watched till you said "There is no point placing panels to the North". I understand your point. But I understand it this way... But if more panels would be installed facing North. ( Much Much more). Then grid would receive more stable power through the whole day, springs and autumns, cloudy days, etc... North panels will not get overexposed to the sun during midday. North panels will not get overheated. North panels generate same amount in the morning/midday/evening. You can install much much more North facing panels without risking to exceed Invertors maximum potential. You need 10 times as much north facing panels than South facing panels, but you have much better power distribution across day/year.
8kw and 4kw inverter? you can constantly export 3.68kw and use the rest for heating, water, chest freezers (with insulation and timeclock) battery storage, or charging an EV. the thing is 8kw is not a lot, and on cloudy days 8kw array will be lucky to give 2kw, and thats most of the winter. if you have space, add solar. dont forget you can use solar dc direct instead of through an inverter. 220vdc with commutator capacitor, or 380vdc string for feeding a switch mode power supply for example a server with dual psu.
I've just stumble across your channel. This video is very informative. What a complete mess this whole solar business is. I wonder what the smallest commercial solar array is in this country? I would imagine it's magnitudes larger than private dwellings? So it's essentially just more red-tape and money not to mention being off putting for both home owner and indeed installers.
Interestingly, I never had a problem with the three companies I contacted to quote a 10KW solar system. But that may have been down to our on-site microdistillery and that we have a 120amp fuse and cable to the grid that supplies both the house and distillery. I thought they may have been hesitant to have that much going back to the grid but they and Western Power were fine with it too. Could also be due to split inveters, one to the house, one to the distillery and heating elements don't care if they get AC or DC.
If you had 3 phase then it was a 3x3.3KW system not 10KW per phase (still falls under g98) anything upto 12kw on 3phase isn't complicated to get approval no different then a 4kw single phase
I got a replacement inverter after 10 years. I discussed extra panels and was advised not worth it. He did not mention G98 or G99 forms. I don't know if anyone in street has panels. But warning about paying for whole street was important. It shows UK still doesn't understand the benefits for our economy.
Someone has to pay to upgrade the street cable it would make more sense if this was a levy on everyones bill for so many years to pay it off and this would benefit everyone
Not sure who told you about upgrading the street cables, that would mean you are providing more power into the system than the DNO can. Very unlikely in the extreme for domestic solar. It would men every property putting out on to the system 70 or more amps. Even then the network will carry a 100% overload for an hour or so and a 50% for a day ish etc.. If the network is already at capacity the DNO would be glad as it reduces the strain. Now with solar farms that could happen to the incoming supply to the farm so dedicated cables will be installed. The 3.8KW is the point were a domestic supply becomes a commercial supply and the DNO would be looking to provide a 3 phase service. But you would have to be producing 3.8 KW over and above your domestic usage so 5, 6, 7 KW etc production. Thats a lot of panels. PS you can't get panels of the same size that have significant power outputs... There is no reason you cant split your solar either, Disconnect essential service like fridge, heating, freezer, lights from the DNO supply and connect to a separate solar supplied circuit with batteries. Once you start thinking of making money off solar you are by default a commercial supplier, so pay up like all other businesses have to.
nice video.... i have 4k on a 3.69k inverter on the old feed in tariff and a 3k on a 3.68k inverter battery system.... it's the inverter that the D.N.O are interested in
I’m considering a hybrid inverter with a battery and solar panel system. The inverter does not export power to the grid although it consumes grid power when needed either by the battery or the house. Therefore as far as the grid is concerned, the system behaves purely as a consumer and generally as a lower power consumer than prior to installing the system. Under these circumstances, am I allowed to avoid the cost of MCS installation/certification by using any competent and approved electrician with DIY apart from the mains connection, and do I then avoid having to make a G98 or G99 application? The inverter, which will be the only item connected directly to the grid, is itself fully certified.
hi ian, I have a similar project in mind, I notice you have not had an answer to your question and Im unable to resolve this issue either. where do we go with it?
Most domestic inverters limit the amount of power you can draw from a battery storage system to 3.6kW. So even the 5kW Givenergy or Luxpowertek won't let you go beyond 3.6 when there is no solar generation. Lets imagine you have solar panels up to 6kW and imagine on a day with a 3.68kW inverter up to 3.68kW can be used for self consumption and the remaining 2.3kW can head to the battery as this is a DC pathway and not inverted. With a 5kW inverter clearly you can serve up to 5kW of domestic load and send 1kW to the battery. So actually not much difference. And the ability to make use of that peak 5kW of solar is subject to your consumption patterns. A family with an empty home in the daytime is unlikely to be able to use except on weekends vs a WFH family that potentially could. That being said I like the idea of a G99-fastrack with the 'free' to notify the DNO that you have a large inverter which is export limited to 3.68kW. Though not much on the net about this process and whether all DNO's like this approach. Probably not as they want to extort more money for doing very little.
I have 5kws of solar on my boat, its flat mounted so not as efficient as a pitched roof, however with batteries and DC rated switches I can get all the hot water I need in summer plus never need to start the generator in winter. My boat is also electric drive so my fuel bills are virtually removed for cruising. Currently I have 2 lifepo4 battery banks one for drive one for domestic, shortly these will be merged and I will have 46kwh of storage for either drive or domestic use, should be enough for a few days. The advantage of boat life Is DNOs arnt involved
@@NicolasRaimo Exactly.. the G99 paper work is excessive. Plus the added costs of application and the possibility of a rejectin and expensive remedial work required for approval. But having 50Kw of array means that on a crappy winters day you'll still get 3.6Kw out of it!! I opted for a 4.9Kw to offset degradation and to give it a little more oomphf on a cloudy day.
It looks like another example of where the infrastructure is organised to maximise profits for companies, while jo public think the infrastructure is there to supply them with power.
I have an array of 13 x 300w panels, 6 face East and 7 face West. Each panel has its own micro inverter as my understanding is a single inverter works at the output of the lowest generating panel, so would be very inefficient for my array. Chimney stacks and other obstructions can shade one or more panels so could affect the total output if they didn't have their own inverter. Micro inverters don't seem to be mentioned by many people when talking about PV arrays. P.S. I can see a barn behind us where the whole South facing roof has been covered in an array of nearly 300 panels.
You may find your micro inverters are wasting power, they use power them selfs and unless a panel has different shading it’s not needed, your 2 arrays can also go in the inverter as string 1 and string 2 meaning no micro inverters needed
A normal string, having no micro inverters or optimisers, will be limited by the performance of the weakest panel. My original system, 4 kW south facing, was a normal system when installed. One morning in the summer I had to get up early and watched the way the roof was illuminated by the sun - I have some shading from an adjacent building. I was gobsmacked as I saw that my 95% illuminated roof was only producing about 250 watts! Over the next few minutes the output shot up to 2.5kW! I’d never have believed it unless I’d seen it myself. At the time my system was 7 years old with no monitoring app or anything. I had it upgraded, using the same panels, using Solar Edge optimisers & inverter & the problem was totally resolved. I reckon the elimination of shading gave me about 7% more overall output. So, yes, they do use a minimal amount of power - but in some instances can work out more efficient despite that. If you have a clear southern view with no shading then they aren’t the way to go - but life isn’t always like that is it.
You said it there - you lost a few minutes of generation by shading issues. If the shading issues were consistent, sure, pay for solar edge (or similar)
@@NicolasRaimo One of my East facing panels is partially shaded by a dormer window so would reduce the output of the other five for a few hours. Similarly those West facing panels shaded by a chimney stack would reduce the output for a few hours. Not all installations are simple.
I think if you suffer from shading then fine but I would not use them ,the cost and then I see it as extra failure points which then means scaffold and labour costs again. I went to a system on a 4 as story block of flats and the system had micro inverters fitted .nothing was ever in the way for shading , and the fault was a Nicro inverter problem.
Would it not make sense to use bifacial solar panels for garden fencing? Solar panels cost only around £45/sqm which is a lot cheaper than a single brick garden wall which is closer to £100/sqm So a brick garden wall for £100/sqm or a solar garden wall for £45/sqm? Give me the latter Yes wooden fences are cheaper at around £10/sqm but they rot and need replacement every so often plus painting plus the wind knocks them down etc. I'd rather pay £45/sqm once for the solar panel fence than pay £10/sqm for the wood fence which I'll need to repalce multiple times plus pay or do the labour multiple times There is a vast potential to add a lot more solar at low prices if fencing was solar panels rather than crap wood or expensive brick If the average garden is 15 meters deep and you install 2 meter tall solar fences youd have 30sqm of area = approx 6KW additional solar per house They don't need to be as productive as roof panels as they would be cheaper to install especially if you account for the cost as cost minus saving of other form of fencing
In UK, do you have to inform DNO if you are not exporting to grid and have an off grid inverter fitted? It seems strange if yes because most off grid inverters won't burden the grid even if its just used as a charger input on a relatively small array with some basic storage. Now I'd be interested in knowing loop holes, like what happens if you later upgrade to say 2 seperate off grid systems, each less than 4kw as some have a parallel output functions
Just untie them from the grid and put in what you like, in south Africa if you send electricity back to the grid you get charged, their systems go into idle when you not using the power generated ...
I got a 9kW array fitted, with an 8kw inverter back in November 2020. My g99 process went a bit like: DNO: We can agree to this 10kW inverter, so long as you pay us £7k Installer: Can we export limit and get approval for free? DNO: No Installer: But I can fit a 3.68kW inverter and not ask for permission, so why can’t I fit a 10kw inverter with export limitation? DNO: OK, you can export limit to 5kW for free, but it needs to be an 8kW inverter. You need to reapply, and you’ll hear from us in due course. Total horse trading! So there’s more to it than admin. I measured my AC voltage, and during 5kW exports it was getting close to 247Volts. The legal upper limit is 252 Volts. So there are technical limitations to export. If I could export all 8kW then I’d probably be right on the voltage limit. Now one option is to go off grid. You can have a transfer switch, and have your inverter completely disconnected from the grid. Then there’s no DNO approval needed at all. Now you need an off grid inverter of course, and you miss out that juicy octopus agile outgoing tariff. But if the alternative is being saddled with a £7k network upgrade bill then why not? If you want to go a bit more complex, you could have two inverters, one on grid at 3.68kw and one off grid. You then transfer your PV from one inverter to another with a DC transfer. This way you still have grid access if you’re coming up short of Solar / Batteries. You need an installer who’s happy to do non standard design work, but this would work.
Rooftop solar actually suffers in Australia as well although you're usually just limited by how much you can export vs total system power 10KW is pretty common in New installs now our grid is massive and kinda old so there are major transmission issues as well. Still you can get pretty good generation even in winter here so not complaining.
I don't care what their rules say, my next house will be a bungalow with a large solar array, gas boiler with Stirling engine generator and a standby generator all running through a Victron Quattro and with about 30 Kwh of battery storage. The 50p per day (ever increasing) cost of the standing charge will probably cover the fuel cost of occasional use of the standby generator.
we had 14 panels on (4.8kkwh) installed on west faced roof with 3.68kw inverter and the company was quite reticent to not do the work to get more panel on the east side for complimentary morning sun, even with an extra inverter. i never seen anybody refusing to take on more work and money :(
Did you manage to get it installed? (as long as the inverter g98 limit wasn't removed it would just flat line at 16A witch is around 3.7-4KW depending on how high your local grid voltage is)
I had the same issue with my recent solar install. Happy to put in a 4kw array on a south facing roof but refused a 6kw array as they said the DNO would reject. We already have a 4kw east facing array and adding the new array was very simple. I plan in the next year or two to add another 4wk array. I am fortunate to have lots of roof space on a few outbuildings plus some land, so I may look to do a ground mount array that tracks the sun. we will have a second EV by that point and possibly a third as my son is about to take his driving test. We also have a powerwall 2 with gateway, so even if the grid went down, we would not send energy to the grid, so the DNO should not object to our third array, or at least that is what I am hoping for. I agree with the points you made re DNOs as well. cheers J
We just don't export, as we keep it all to ourselves, it either goes into our Sunamp, one of 2 EV's or the 31.5kWh battery bank, and in autumn and spring we uses Infrared Panels, and in the winter months I just fill it all with cheap renewable energy over night and run our ASHP off one of the cars using a Setec unit.
Basically, the grid can't handle too much electricity. Same reason we see wind generators not spinning on windy days. It's more cost effective to shut down the equipment that's costs more to maintain. MONEY.....
Exporting to the grid has few problems, one being the SEG payments are paltry and the necessary grid tie inverters are expensive and prone to failure. Better to use the excess power to heat water and save on expensive gas and reduce carbon emissions.
There's now a new G99 fast track process that comes into force in Nov 22 for domestic customers who can now get up to 32A per phase connected in a 10-day fast track process.
32A a phase is your upgrade? In Massachusetts anything less than 30A a phase has been illegal for 25 years.
About time. Lot of the regulations are designed to stop people from getting solar in the first place.
@@joshentheosparks7492 220V vs 110V, I suspect.
At twice the voltage though. I suspect US is 110 per phase, UK is 230V
@@joshentheosparks7492 240v ?🤣 Erm
My experience of owning an array on a north facing roof it that generates 50% of a comparable south facing roof - averaged over a year. A couple of points: 1) on cloudy days with diffuse lighting, the direction matters not a jot. North is as good as South. 2) In the summer, when the sun is high in the sky, the north array is almost as good as a south. So the 50% is averaged out over the year. One final point is that using Solar Edge equipment minimises shading - well worth investigating further.
So your saying install on ALL the roofs you have then Robert?
Oh yes, even north - use separate inverters or Solar Edge to overcome shading issues
I have a 4kW south facing array & a separate 3kW north facing one. On an annual basis the north one produces about 50% of the output of the south facing one
@@robertharvey9698 If you’d install a 4KW north facing array you average 66% (to make things comparable).
@@RoaldHemel35 I understand that, I was pro- rating to make a meaningful comparison. Also, the 3kW system is oversized input to output. With Solar Edge you can oversize by 155% input to output. But the extra capacity is quite recent & just quoting numbers wouldn’t help due to the context being wrong.
We've just been told by the local DNO (SP Energy Networks) that we have to fit a 12kW export limiter to a 33kW array on a large leisure centre because of local 'network limitations' despite the building having an incoming 3 phase, 200A per phase supply. The place is open every day from 8am to 9pm using a large amount of power in internal high bay lighting and air conditioning. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Seems like somebody is terrified of losing kWh sales.
Yeah but if you use it then why care
Just for completeness - if you don't apply for, or are refused anything larger than 3.68kW, it only means you cannot output more than that back to the grid. It does not mean you can't fit a system capable of generating more than that.
You could fit a ~10kW system which charges suitably sized batteries and force the inverter to only output 3.68kW once the battery is at 100%.
I stick by my advice that if you intend to fit solar, put as many panels that produce as much combined power onto as much roof space as you have available. Do it once and do it as big as possible. If you have to budget, then pay less for a smaller inverter or battery, then aim to upgrade it when your situation changes.
How do you get your system to just export 3.68kw?
You need an inverter that is capable of doing this.@@mutton_man
@@mutton_manexport limit
Great advice 👍
You've done your homework mate, well done, I've been through all this myself, now Ive got 4.5kw on my south facing roof (unshaded) a 5kw hybrid inverter and 2 10kw batteries, for my small terranced house it's overkill I know but through the summer I'm making nearly £100 a month in exports on Octopus Agile Outgoing, hence I've built up £400+ in credit which should be more than enough to get me through the winter, I'm basically off-grid and have been for over a year now, I've also had a switchover fitted in case of power cuts, I did have an EPS but I want the option of powering the entire house. Great video and much appreciated. 🤜🤛
Find your local regulators and hug them. There are local governments with vested interests in competing technologies - such as Tennessee Valley Authority, USA (hydroelectric power). They do not buy any form of distributed power. I would install enough PV to be making house payments with excess power if they did.
You should be mining crypto currency! WOW missed opportunity. dont sell back to octopus for pennies. Mine Bitcoin and retire happy.
@@E69apeTheMatrix420 mine Bitcoin??? Why on earth would you do that. Mine a privacy coin, don't let the government surveil you.
@@MoaningGit WOW! Well said. I am doing exactly that myself. I mean for a rookie at least. I love MWC.
Abou, can I have your advice please?
I do have south facing roof, no shading at all. The maximum number of panels I can go is 8. Looking at 5kWh inverter and at the moment only 1 5kWh battery.
Can you share your set up? Brand and where you live please?
There is now also what is known as G99 fast track. This allows a G98 approved inverter to be used with its export to the grid monitored and controlled via a G100 approved device so that it can generate more power, but will vary its output so that its export to the grid is limited to an agreed value - normally the 16A/3.68kW output. This allows the installed solar system to generate addition output if you are using it in your own home, so works well if you have EVs, battery storage, water heater and/or heating that uses electricity rather than gas.
If an installer does not know about this solution, it maybe worth looking for an installer that does as it indicates they do not keep up with changes in the market place.
Do the DNO's charge for a G99 fast track application?
@@robinlander1158 Each DNO does their own thing when it comes to fees, so you need to check with your local DNO. The point of G99 fast track is to turn the process into a form and tick box process - so any fees charged should be far lower than those made for a full G99 application.
Just to clarify, if I had 10kW of panels, 10kWh of DC batteries, and an 8kW G100 approved hybrid inverter, I'd be able to do the G99 fast track (G99 A1.2) as the export can be limited to 3.68kW?
@@AphexTwin99999 Logically yes, but I think you would need a registered installer to add the export monitoring device, connect everything up and do the required registration and paperwork.
I have a 14 panel Solar edge system on a south facing garage roof in NE England. Peak array output in optimum conditions is upto 5KW which is obviously way more than domestic consumption most of the time so I also have a 10KWh battery. On good days in the summer the battery can be full by lunchtime after which I lose power into the grid. This prompted me to get a hybrid car when I changed this summer and I have a Volvo V60 which has its own 10KWh battery. This works for me as I work mainly from home so the car can be charged during the periods of peak generation and use the power previously exported into the grid.
From November to February however production falls dramatically which means that the battery spends long periods at its minimum charge setting of 11% which is optimised for summer use. This is where I find Solar edge limiting as I would like to have control of the battery draw setting so it could be set higher in the winter and if combined with an isolator be used as a cover for power cuts rather than as a generation extender in the far more productive summer months.
I give my customers the choice, I do G99 applications for free.
I’ve had 3 turned down for nonsensical reasons with National Grid.
If you’re trying to use export limitation on a system above 3.68 then you still need a G99 unfortunately
It’s not a lie to oversize a system with a smaller inverter as long as it’s in the contract
We should be allowed 7kw as standard and less red tape
also why are we not integrating wind turbines for roofs - it does not make sense
I honestly feel all options should be given to the customer so the customer can decide themselves
I think they should take a FEE to submit the paperwork, but if they can't figure out how to properly get the form approved then they refund the money. Otherwise, they have no accountability to actually jump through the extra hoops to get it approved
My personal experience of asking for a 28 panel 11kW array with a 10kW battery, has been very straightforward. The installer didn't blink. They explained the DNO permission situation and have submitted the application to the DNO without any deposit. I've already made sure that the cutout fuse was upgraded to 100amps and had a smart meter fitted. I already have a Zappi installed for my EV. My roof is almost directly East West but has quite a shallow pitch, so both roofs get sun for well over half the day. I can almost spit as far as the substation and there isn't much PV installed locally.
Very lucky if you are near a substation or pole transformer (I’m talking within 50m), as most beyond that would struggle to get more than 8kW of anything allowed without works.
Hi
Can I have please some contact no to your installer?
Thanks
A battery's energy storage capacity is expressed as kilowatt hours. Not kilowatts.
The best option would be to raise the cap from 3 odd up to 5-6kw
You can have 32A feed-in (~7.3kW) on the G99 SGI-3 track which involves somebody checking if the mains can actually take that much power so it takes a few months to go through.
You do a great job explaining at a decent pace so that I don’t get bored and stop listening and the info is spot on. A lot of videos on TH-cam take so long to say basic stuff and I find they miss all the information that you’ve mentioned.
Keep up the good work 👏👏👏
Awesome! Thank you!
Almost all solar systems installed today will have a requirement for battery storage by the customer due to the increase in electricity costs and the poor SEG payments. Once you add a battery to a system it will more than likely exceed 3.68kw hence the requirement for G99 approval. The G99 process isn’t that much of a deal tbh (not in wales anyway) it’s 1 form, circuit diagram including the inverter/s sizes and the ENA type tested information from the website. The last one took me around and hour to start and submit and approval was sent within 3 weeks.
i am confused there; KW is not KWh; inverter "means" KW, battery only "means" KWh, not KW.
Great video mate. Had applied for a big system with big inverter and submitted. Their answer was that their wires were not going to be able to cope if I exported entire production; nothing was said in case if I imported same amount... that it should melt down as well. Long story short, installers reduce a bit panels and reduce inverter.
I live in the US and was amazed at 3.68kw systems. Most systems here are 10kw or more. The reason they frown on us building larger arrays is it eats into their profits. Summers are very hot and winters can be very cold. So large arrays are needed.
We on average here in the UK use a lot less units per day. Also our heating tends to be done by has boilers and hot water 💧
Possibly you have larger roofs on average? The cost of scaffolding is also offputting here and its' fixed - you can't cheapen that part of it - all you can do to save a bit is have less panels.
@@NicolasRaimo any talk about replacing boilers with heat pumps
Next to nobody has aircon in the UK.
@@RichardABW if you get 15 to 30 days of 38 degree c weather, it comes in handly.
We've got a South facing garden, 3 months ago we had a 6kw system fitted along with a 5kw battery. Today we have been generating 5.6kw, our battery is full, last month our gas and electric bill was £18. As long as you are savvy with the way you use it, it can work to your advantage. Our system cost £8k. The money saved and the decrease in direct debit, this has been used as over payments for our loan.
That’s an amazing price by the way
please,how many years till you break even?
When the FIT scheme started I asked an electrical engineer I knew well if the scheme was too good to be true. He told me “no but it can’t last”. We had converted some barns that we had on the farm and applied to the DNO (naively as it turned out) to
put a 16 amp string in for each barn.
We were restricted to systems less than 11kws in total unless we contributed to an infrastructure upgrade. We went with the reduced scheme but when up and running we couldn’t understand why the PVs cut out when we had full sun. We discovered that being in a rural area, rather than strengthening the network when new homes were added, the voltage was increased so that homes at the end of the line didn’t have a supply falling below the legal voltage. We on the other hand had a supply which exceeded the legal limit when the sun was at its best. Adjustments were made to correct the problem. We also completed our original scheme but not until the rules were changed on G99 some 2 to 3 years later- very close to the end of the FIT scheme
The original FIT was messed up from an economic perspective and your electrical engineer friend was quite right.
The FIT rate in the early days was set higher than the price per kWh the power company could charge for the electricity you generated for them which they sold on to consumers.
This meant that for every kWh of power you generated by solar and fed into the national grid, the power/electricity company sold it on and made a loss.
So who was paying for that loss? It was being covered by other electricity consumers and possibly government subsidies issued to the power companies.
Why should Joe Public incur a cost and that money be paid to consumers generating electricity from solar panels? It was obviously unfair, and the economics was completely upside down as far as the power companies go.
Having more array is obviously better for poorer weather days, but once you made the decision to have battery backup you can continue pushing power (at the 3.65KW rate) into the evening/night. You could let your battery system allow a discharge (say) to 80% whilst still maintaining enough for your own usage/backup. I also think that east/west arrays should be wired through separate charge controllers to allow for optimum MPPT.
Over the many years I've had solar I've noticed that often the day starts cloudy and that burns off later to open up to clear skies. So I'd suggest that if your roof is only east and west and your budget is only for one side then you might want to give west preference.
Just do 4kw grid tie to sell or keep for future purposes and another 4kw of battery charging off grid for your immediate needs. I just picked up 12kw of amorphous silicone panels which are perfect for anyone in the northern hemisphere or who does not have a south facing roof or who does not adjust the angle for the time of year.
The answer to this is to campaign for the G99 to be for larger systems. If this situation is causing there to be less solar fitted, then it's completely counterproductive to expanding green energy use. Sounds to me like somebody somewhere wants to discourage people going completely off grid.
Seems that's coming in November this year rasing the limit to 32A from 16A (still requires g99 but 10 day fast track as long as install size not larger then 32A, witch I guess is 7.5KW ish)
I am Australian and i had to think twice about comments regarding North facing rooves - that is the normal here of course because we are in the opposite hemisphere. We still get a benefit from South facing rooves in most of the country (Tasmania might be problematic)
There is another reason. Most houses could carry enough solar to run their entire house with battery support. The problem with this there is no tax income for the government. No VAT, no business taxes, nothing. You make your own power, store it and use it. Government earns nothing.
The government don't want renewables unless they control the income stream. Great video, thank you.
Utter nonsense, Solar and battery installs are VAT free, heat pump installs have a £7500 Government grant and are VAT free (although the installer will likely bump the price up on both). I installed solar and batteries, the government put up no barriers to me doing that, the only one you could argue is a barrier is the MCS requirement that suppliers insist on so you get paid for export, but you can install without this. There are also so planning and/or permitted development rules, but these have been relaxed last year. Also most house could not install enough solar to run with out the grid, even with batteries. I've a big house, I currently have 8.74kWp of solar and 29 kWh of batteries, in the winter it is not enough by a long shot, I'm installing another 6.5kWp of panels, it still won't be enough for the winter, BUT my summer exports already cover our full electric and gas bills.
Some of the things I mentioned have changed for the better since your comment, but it sounds to me that you have no idea what you are talking about!
I thought only the panels are vat free
@@rich1483 The entire install is VAT free, so long as it's work required to install the panels, battery only installs are now also VAT free.
Your are spot on about the benefits of east and west orientated arrays as mine are split 60/40 to provide most power when needed, maximise on-site consumption and avoid export, although power drops off sharply during winter. (but still with some useful generation) An Eddi management unit diverts excess production to heat the water tank immersion for 9/10 months of the year and the electric car charger scoops up most of the rest. The arrays total just over 3 KW peak which meets my needs for most of the year and avoids significant export.
A tip to anyone considering investing in solar is to design your system around your daily pattern of usage where possible. A smart meter should generate a chart showing this if you have an online account with your energy provider.
Video next week on why you might want to export ;)
I also send excess power to my hot water tank & almost never use the gas boiler to heat the water tank.
@@robertharvey9698is the heat from hot water tank enough to heat your radiators as well?
Well explained. I had solar fitted in April. I am very pleased so far. I didn't go for a battery at the time, but the threat of power cuts makes me think I should have.. On the plus side Octopus are paying me 15p per kwh for export.
Battery that works in island mode and other things you can do will be on channel in a few weeks videos ready to go out.
@@NicolasRaimo looking forward to it, thank you
Adding a battery at a later date is easy to do. The Givenergy 9.4kwh battery(7.5 kwh usable) costs about £5000(with installation) from what I could find out in research(I have no intentions of buying one, was just curious, at least until maybes I win the lottery and can possibly buy my flat).
Not in the UK. My experience is with a 2kW inverter (because that is what we could afford at the time many years ago). A few years after install I checked with the manufacturer about what the OVER supply warranty was for the inverter. It was 100%. So I could install up to 4kW of panels. I actually added up to 3.8kW. There are times during the day when the inverter "flat lines" (can't use all the panel power). No problem. The rest of the day the system benefits from the EXTRA panels so whenever the sun shines the inverter is working as hard as possible within warranty limits.
There will be some way to detect the flat line or near the flat line and then start dumping the rest of your power to the hot water tank, that way you use most of your power. Not sure if you guys have hot water tanks, a lot of homes in the UK were built with them.
@@PF-gi9vv Flat line is at max inverter output so that power (above the flat line) has no where to go. Hot water is already direct solar (not electric).
@@Michael_CS615 I understand flat line, I don't think you get what I'm saying, theres always away to use the power produced by the panels even if the inverter is maxed out. A second inverter would be easiest for you.
I was told by mulitple installers that my local DNO blanket refuse all domestic applications for larger inverters, I was basically told 99% will have spent the money for G99 application for nothing. I have 19 panels over E S and W roofs with a 3.6Kw inverter. Very occasionally in the middle of the summer it clips once the batteries are full so it's not really an issue but if I had a larger south roof it would be. One installer told me they even have difficulty getting industrial 3 phase installs approved over 5kw per phase in some areas. Seems to me if that's true the grid company are just avoiding having the number of solar installs build up to the point where they have to do infrastructure upgrades. The grid should be upgraded to cope with the max local roof capacity by the industry (which cost will be carried by all consumers not the individual Solar plant owner, if the locally generated solar power was properly priced into the kwh price everyone including people without solar would benefit, so why should the solar plant owners carry the full bill?) government should be subsidizing grid upgrades as well as part of net zero policy.
The customer should always be made aware of all options.
It shouldn't matter what the total array is, just the size of inverter that is connected to the grid as feed in
So you could have a 4kw array with a 3.68KW inverter that is grid facing, and a 4KW array feeding a battery charger and grid isolated inverter, the 2 arrays would be totally separate, you may use the isolated one first to charge your car, or to power things during the winter, then use the grid attached one mainly as feed in (to offset grid use bills), or when the isolated one is low.
It's all about the local wiring coping with the export to the grid.
In my case, I said "bollocks to that", installed my own panels and set the system to 0 export.
(I couldn't get an export tariff on a DIY install anyway, but for the pennies a kw they give it's just not worth all the expense of paying someone to do the install and give me the certificate required to export).
Living in San Diego, is see many undersized units around. I think this is primarily because the electric company wants thier users to pay at least a moderate amount of money to them. The best way to go is to use panels which have inverters attached. Then you can do a basic install, get your approval, then add more panels yourself as needed. This has helped, as our electrical needs rose dramatically with addition of two electric cars.
Weird logic on SDGE. I give supply their grid 7KW, they sell it to someone else and still get a Meter/distribution charge from both of us. That is one of the reason to separate the consumption from the Meter-distribution charges that are now common on utility bills.
That makes a lot of sense. Companies are eager to do what the government rewards them for, and are hesitant to do anything that the government makes challenging.
Surely you only need these forms etc if you intend to feed into the grid. If your 'off grid' or have no intention of selling/feeding into the grid via a smart meter and have interlock switching no forms/permits etc are needed.
Really useful video. We have just fitted an 8.5kW array. Five neighbours have solar and others are now interested in doing the same. I have just warned them that they may risk the bill or being refused anything over the 3.68kW threshold.
Pssst am doing a solar series currently my system review is at evnick.com/solar
One of my neighbours fitted his own solar system to the roof of his flat roofed garage, the council made him take it down because it wasn't installed by an approved installer, he wasn't feeding into the grid, he owned his house, but because he didn't use an installation company that's probably owned by corrupt officials, he had to take it all down
What country?
@@pookachu64 UK
unfoKKingbelievable!!
Probably was a council house (he likely didn't actually own the house) so can't just change the structure of the house without permission, on your own personal house if your roof is covered in tiles or solar not council job (power company if you didn't have aprovel if connected to grid)
@@leexgx I was about to say the same, if you own your own home, it's not covered by planning unless it's covered by some sort of protection order or listed building
Of course solar evacuated tubes have to be connected via an accredited installer to connect it up
I asked my installer to apply for a 5kW inverter and 8kWp panels via G99. They agreed, I had to pay 25% deposit but it only took 4 weeks which was less than the lead time for the panels.
I’m glad I did, having more panels means in winter I get more electricity towards my daily needs and in summer it can still cope with the full output and I can feed the excess into a water heater and electric car during the peak generation periods.
You adding batteries? Have you seen my series on battues or what's the best energy deal to be on?
@@NicolasRaimo
Yes I’ve got 10kWh of batteries
I saw your video on deals thank you.
I’m still waiting for EDF to install a smart meter before I switch to Octopus Flux. They’re really taking a long time despite lots of phone calls which is frustrating but I understand it’s better to get the existing supplier to install the meter and then switch?
@@BAC_Mono it’s likely quicker but nothing stoping you moving and asking octopus to do it you could try an email and ask time scale for install with them if you switched? Please consider using my referral link if you do switch it really helps me carry on making videos
@@NicolasRaimo thanks I’ll give that a try, good idea.
Great channel by the way, it’s really helpful advice.
@@BAC_Mono thanks a lot means a lot! I have a huge back catalogue of videos and some great interviews on their also including one with Greg Jackson ceo of octopus energy
Although I do not live in the UK, I would think that they should offer you the option to split off any additional power through a separate off-grid invertor to your own set of batteries (like a Bluettti E500 pro), which you can use for whatever you like. This would save the paperwork and you still get to use the power
Not sure about other tariffs, but mine allows full 100% usage of all electricity produced AND FULL payment for all generated power. The big issue is that the amount generated would have to be monitored and only that amount used to charge the batteries, otherwise grid energy would be used to charge the battery when solar output drops.
There are regulations about how much solar you can connect to the grid. If it’s not connected to the grid you can legally fit as much as you like.
@@hughmarcus1 It would make sense to leave your grid connected solar without a battery and have a battery for your off-grid solar. You can then use that excess power for charging EVs or have a separate heat pump.
In the UK, if you have a MCS heat pump, it means you can't have cooling in the summer (you can probably hack it post-install but not technically legal). If you had one of those, it would make sense to get a second heat pump (or several mini-splits) and have cooling in the summer and some additional heating in the colder months. Obviously the additional heat pump(s) would be connected to the off-grid setup. You could also heat a hot water tank using the off-grid solar/battery which would directly offset your on-grid costs you would have spent for heating water. Finally, such a setup means that you would have backup heating in case your primary heat source broke down and you could continue having heat during an outage (in the UK, you can't use your solar/battery in a power outage). So one more reason to remove your gas meter, save on paying standing charges and can properly insulate your wall where the meter was!
What I have found, and you have picked up on, is that the old cable infrastructure is not up to the job and can't keep up with the greening. Also they would like to keep selling you electricity.
We have 9.2 KW on an east / west array and at the limit the DNO will permit. However, my installer tells me they could install more panels but with a limiter to restrict the export to grid. Having two EV's, batteries and water heating this is a very tempting option.
It's not the cable infrastructure, it's the Transformer Size at the final distribution Substation!
@@stuartwilliams8663 Many thanks for the information Stuart. Good to get the real picture. Information I had came from a guy at an exhibition I attended.
That's crazy! I can't believe how burocratic the UK has become. I just installed a 5.4kWh system in Spain and the process is just as simple as for the 3.68kWh system in the UK. Spain is a very burocratic country already, but below 10kWh is considered "home use".
Note that these considerations don't apply if you're operating a purely off-grid system rather than grid-tied.
In the USA and with Texas Homeowners’ insurance, if your panel array generates MORE POWER THAN YOU USE IN A CALENDAR YEAR, State Farm Insurance will not cover your solar panels in the event of storm damage. Agent said they audit your YEAR’S POWER BILLS IF YOU ARE GRID TIED BEFORE PAYING OUT A PENNY.
We have 32 solar panels on the roof, a battery storage system and an electric car. We NEVER draw power from the grid at peak tariffs and are currently paying 7.5 pence per unit at night. About 35% of the car charging is from solar and this means the car is costing is approximately 1.5 pence per mile. We are very satisfied with the installation - the only annoyance was the 20% VAT on all the components.
VAT shouldn't be 20% if solar install was done by an approved installer and the battery also gets reduced VAT
Interesting as this is what happened to me, we got the basic system with battery storage and when I asked about more panels there was much sucking in of cheeks and comments about additional costs etc. I guess with solar being relatively new to most electrical companies they only want to fix the ‘quick fix’ set up….lesson learned
I have 6 panels and 12 panels feeding my inverter 3.6kw . I have one 6.5kw battery connected. Depending on sun and use it gets to 100% early afternoon.
I then connect a second 6.5 kw battery to charge , if it’s low, taking off the 1st battery. In the summer the battery lasts all night and is about 5-10% left. If the next day is cloudy I can put on my second 6.5kw battery to run appliances . Dishwasher, washing machine, etc don’t all consume electric at the same time so my use from the grid is about 0-1 unit a day.
Should be an intermediate form between tiny array (G98) and huge solar farm (G99) for arrays upto say 10-20kw. I agree everyone should be charged a small amount to upgrade the grid not just the last person
G99 fast track now open but many installers seem unaware of it
Just changed my mind and had more Panels fitted(10 +a extra 4), luckily they installed a 5kw Inverter has I said I wanted more panels my DNO though is taking forever to get approved
I have just mounted the panels on a trailer, and they can be directed to the sun by hand or automatically,just use a teeth ring on the trailer, and you dont have to turn the trailer itself.I m off grid,so I do as I please since 2017.
Wait, I downloaded the G99 form from the ENA test type register for my Solis 5kW inverter and made the DNO application online. Job done.
No deposit/cost.
My DNO is UK Power Networks.
Honestly I think there is another answer here. My solar is 7.7kw east west, but I have a hybrid inverter that will only supply the 3.68kw on the grid connection, however it will also allow the DC batteries I have connected to take the rest of the 7.7kw, i.e. a further 3.5kw, as a result although i might be throwing away some energy on days where the batteries are full and the array is generating over the 3.68kw, this is not all that often. The other nice capability of the inverter is that it has a UPS/EPS power connection, which is effectively on the non-grid side of the inverter and so I have some of the lower power but permanently on equipment connected on that, so it doesn’t count towards the grid load and also it stays on when the grid is off, which as I am rural and fed from overhead lines, can happen in storms. On the topic of the video, i agree with the comments on the DNO in part, although in a rural location, I have seen that grid export can significantly increase the grid voltage, in my case 3KW export increases the voltage by around 4volts
For your non-grid power outlet you could also use this for domestic hot water. This saving on gas/paid for power.
Does your DNO know you have 7kw of solar and accepted that your inverter will stay capped to g98 16A limit, my understanding was g99 was required regardless if the inverter was capped to g98 16A (default)
@@leexgx Hi Lee, the company installing the solar managed the MCS certificate and the DNO notification. I expect it would be G98 as the technical guidance for DNO registration only refers to 16A per phase and the inverter I have is designed to only output 16A, i.e. it’s not physically capable of more than 16A to the grid. The hybrid nature of the inverter (it’s a LuxPower LXP3600) means that the inverter can handle 7kw of solar generation with the remaining power (as required) being used to charge batteries (DC ones not on the grid side of the inverter). I mentioned previously that I have 7.7kw of panels, however they are east-west facing and the installers assured me in writing that their analysis was that peak noon time generation would not reach higher than 7kw due to the east-west nature of the panels and having seen some very sunny days this last summer I think the largest generation I saw was around 6.1kw. Have a look at the “Distributed Generation Connection Guides: G98 for Single Premises” from Energy Networks Association it has some guidance on the 16A per phase. I hope that’s helpful
I did my own admin for G99/G100. It isn't difficult, but I did have to spend time to learn how to do it. I had a decision within 2 weeks from the DNO.
Since this video fast track came in
@@NicolasRaimo Yes, that makes sense. The forms were much longer and more complicated before.
at last some one with some sence about east west facing roof. On our house we have 5.2kw of PV panels on both the east and on the west, giving 10.4kw total. It fills the batteries very quickly for nine months of the year and we have exported 11Mw's every year. Thats mega watts we export not kilowatts.. For power generation over a nine month stretch east west works. For the 3 winter months it would be usfull for some south facing PV panels, but the money I get for the exported energy pays for my winter use.
Cheers Andrew please consider subscribing to the channel and sharing my solar videos with the community
I have panels on my North side and I live in Phx, Arizona. ( 29 degrees north ). During mid summer where the sun tracks directly overhead I get the same power draw as the south side. In winter it's only 40% of the southern side , but during winter I make way more than I use. So for me it makes sense during summer to have these panels since I can use up to 80kW per day ( I can generate up to 40kW ) so every bit of energy generated is used.
I had a 6kWh battery fitted in August. It had taken more than 9 months for my G99 to be approved.
I have 3.4kW of solar. The most I could fit on the roof at the time (7yrs ago). The inverter can handle 4.5kW.
My September electricity bill was half the year before. October is looking the same.
Over the year I generate more than I use.
Overall I'm pleased with the setup. Not so pleased with the wasted Summer.
How's this summer
In Estonia the line between commercial solar farm and micro-producer is at 15kw.
The limitations are engineering not admin. Any network hates solar - it provides maximum power when the network doesn't need it it & none when it does.
The bit missing is that the sheer cost of installing all of this will take you around 23 years to really get the money back, but by then you have been through 2 inverters and a replacement battery pack
Thank you, thank you, finally somebody making sense;
*that* bit bites!!!
25 year warranty on a SolarEdge inverter costs about £200-300.
So that’s on top of the high installation cost so when do you actually get your money back, I was to,d I would be negative £1400 so other than the saving the planet comments what’s the point
@@uksupporter8867 If you don't pay over the odds, and you pick the right kit for your use and get on the right tariffs, payback is easily under 10 years, more like 7 or so.
If your Power Generating Module is less than 50 kW three-phase or 17 kW single-phase, then you can use a simplified application form (Annex A.1 of EREC G99)
Just been informed about this but I believe not till November and still silly its needed for small arrays of 5kw
We have a rule here made by the utility companies over here in the USA where if you go over 10 kw you are classified as a commercial system and t hey impose a monthly fee on you. This is their way of telling you that they do not want any thing that will horn in on their profits.
That all states?
I agree - I want the option. Currently I won’t have solar panels as it won’t/can’t supply all my electricity. In fact it’s a dismal percentage so I can’t see the point in it.
Video coming up on my channel for battery only system and payback!
We have 5KW south and 5KW split east/west. The east west array is good for the early morning and late evening, it adds an extra 1 hour way where energy is generated. One point, with more people having local battery storage, all in all there is actually LESS export and the local grid has less power being pulled during the day. However, most people with batteries do charge them during cheap rate, assuming they are on a cheap rate tariff. Never regretted going as large as possible on the solar, saving us a fortune.
interested in this idea, we have economy 10, old meter, so currently no SEG payments. The (costly) battery idea would be more appealing if I was convinced we would be able to get this E10 deal in the future.
@@vickypos6 I am not sure, but meter replacement and tariff is the choice of the consumer. I have seen nothing that states you must be on a specific import meter if you have solar and/or batteries. If you have an e10 setup, then I do not believe anything changes. I might be wrong mind !
You could have led with, the max size of solar setup a small firm will install is limited by the Grid authority planning process. 4KW is an easy G99 form, anything bigger and you need a tome filled in AND risk getting turned down. Even if you have money and a huge roof. Just like construction planning.
HOWEVER - you can limit your grid feed in to 4KW, and keep the rest for a large battery pack
It begs the question, why would you trust an installer to give you the best advice or service? They're not exactly rocket scientists, on a par with double glazintg companies! Stay away from exporting to the grid, get battery storage and get what you need or can use.
Tune in next week video on decent export pay!
I am having a roof survey in a week, so I will be paying attention to the size of inverter that they are offering. Without this heads up I would have been completely clueless about this issue.
Watched till you said "There is no point placing panels to the North".
I understand your point.
But I understand it this way...
But if more panels would be installed facing North. ( Much Much more). Then grid would receive more stable power through the whole day, springs and autumns, cloudy days, etc...
North panels will not get overexposed to the sun during midday.
North panels will not get overheated.
North panels generate same amount in the morning/midday/evening.
You can install much much more North facing panels without risking to exceed Invertors maximum potential.
You need 10 times as much north facing panels than South facing panels, but you have much better power distribution across day/year.
Sounds like you need to speak to Parliament and tell them it isn' 1999 any more.
8kw and 4kw inverter? you can constantly export 3.68kw and use the rest for heating, water, chest freezers (with insulation and timeclock) battery storage, or charging an EV. the thing is 8kw is not a lot, and on cloudy days 8kw array will be lucky to give 2kw, and thats most of the winter. if you have space, add solar. dont forget you can use solar dc direct instead of through an inverter. 220vdc with commutator capacitor, or 380vdc string for feeding a switch mode power supply for example a server with dual psu.
I've just stumble across your channel. This video is very informative. What a complete mess this whole solar business is. I wonder what the smallest commercial solar array is in this country? I would imagine it's magnitudes larger than private dwellings? So it's essentially just more red-tape and money not to mention being off putting for both home owner and indeed installers.
Yes. Should be automatically allowed if the panels are confined to a domestic roof.
Interestingly, I never had a problem with the three companies I contacted to quote a 10KW solar system. But that may have been down to our on-site microdistillery and that we have a 120amp fuse and cable to the grid that supplies both the house and distillery. I thought they may have been hesitant to have that much going back to the grid but they and Western Power were fine with it too. Could also be due to split inveters, one to the house, one to the distillery and heating elements don't care if they get AC or DC.
If you had 3 phase then it was a 3x3.3KW system not 10KW per phase (still falls under g98) anything upto 12kw on 3phase isn't complicated to get approval no different then a 4kw single phase
I got a replacement inverter after 10 years. I discussed extra panels and was advised not worth it. He did not mention G98 or G99 forms. I don't know if anyone in street has panels. But warning about paying for whole street was important. It shows UK still doesn't understand the benefits for our economy.
Someone has to pay to upgrade the street cable it would make more sense if this was a levy on everyones bill for so many years to pay it off and this would benefit everyone
Not sure who told you about upgrading the street cables, that would mean you are providing more power into the system than the DNO can. Very unlikely in the extreme for domestic solar. It would men every property putting out on to the system 70 or more amps. Even then the network will carry a 100% overload for an hour or so and a 50% for a day ish etc.. If the network is already at capacity the DNO would be glad as it reduces the strain.
Now with solar farms that could happen to the incoming supply to the farm so dedicated cables will be installed. The 3.8KW is the point were a domestic supply becomes a commercial supply and the DNO would be looking to provide a 3 phase service.
But you would have to be producing 3.8 KW over and above your domestic usage so 5, 6, 7 KW etc production. Thats a lot of panels.
PS you can't get panels of the same size that have significant power outputs...
There is no reason you cant split your solar either, Disconnect essential service like fridge, heating, freezer, lights from the DNO supply and connect to a separate solar supplied circuit with batteries.
Once you start thinking of making money off solar you are by default a commercial supplier, so pay up like all other businesses have to.
nice video.... i have 4k on a 3.69k inverter on the old feed in tariff and a 3k on a 3.68k inverter battery system.... it's the inverter that the D.N.O are interested in
They suppliers get the money from the generation and some want to charge for the groundwork. Good business to be in.😊
I’m considering a hybrid inverter with a battery and solar panel system. The inverter does not export power to the grid although it consumes grid power when needed either by the battery or the house. Therefore as far as the grid is concerned, the system behaves purely as a consumer and generally as a lower power consumer than prior to installing the system. Under these circumstances, am I allowed to avoid the cost of MCS installation/certification by using any competent and approved electrician with DIY apart from the mains connection, and do I then avoid having to make a G98 or G99 application? The inverter, which will be the only item connected directly to the grid, is itself fully certified.
hi ian, I have a similar project in mind, I notice you have not had an answer to your question and Im unable to resolve this issue either. where do we go with it?
Most domestic inverters limit the amount of power you can draw from a battery storage system to 3.6kW. So even the 5kW Givenergy or Luxpowertek won't let you go beyond 3.6 when there is no solar generation. Lets imagine you have solar panels up to 6kW and imagine on a day with a 3.68kW inverter up to 3.68kW can be used for self consumption and the remaining 2.3kW can head to the battery as this is a DC pathway and not inverted. With a 5kW inverter clearly you can serve up to 5kW of domestic load and send 1kW to the battery. So actually not much difference. And the ability to make use of that peak 5kW of solar is subject to your consumption patterns. A family with an empty home in the daytime is unlikely to be able to use except on weekends vs a WFH family that potentially could. That being said I like the idea of a G99-fastrack with the 'free' to notify the DNO that you have a large inverter which is export limited to 3.68kW. Though not much on the net about this process and whether all DNO's like this approach. Probably not as they want to extort more money for doing very little.
I have 5kws of solar on my boat, its flat mounted so not as efficient as a pitched roof, however with batteries and DC rated switches I can get all the hot water I need in summer plus never need to start the generator in winter. My boat is also electric drive so my fuel bills are virtually removed for cruising. Currently I have 2 lifepo4 battery banks one for drive one for domestic, shortly these will be merged and I will have 46kwh of storage for either drive or domestic use, should be enough for a few days. The advantage of boat life Is DNOs arnt involved
I think this is going to affect house design in future. Instead of apex roofs we might have houses being built with pent roofs
£700 for the DNO admin form charge is too much considering the profits and standing charges they are making.
I ended up getting a 4.9Kwh/p array under a G98 with 3.6kw export.. wroks very well. they are Logi 410w
So the limit is on your inverter not the array so you can have 50kw of solar panels and a 3.65kw inverter under g98
@@NicolasRaimo Exactly.. the G99 paper work is excessive. Plus the added costs of application and the possibility of a rejectin and expensive remedial work required for approval. But having 50Kw of array means that on a crappy winters day you'll still get 3.6Kw out of it!! I opted for a 4.9Kw to offset degradation and to give it a little more oomphf on a cloudy day.
The limit of 4 kW export is easy to achieve. In my Fronius inverter I just set the export limit to 4 kW. Then what you have in panels does not matter
Defeating object of more panels
@@NicolasRaimo you can divert the solar power to heat a hot water tank if your battery is full.
@@NicolasRaimo depends if the extra panels are for winter lower generation...
@@sang3Eta If you have batteries, yea.. my understanding of Fronius inverters is that they are meant to be grid tied, not operate with batteries.
@@phillipsusi1791 if you have spare electricity you can charge an AC coupled battery with your excess grid power.
You can get away with panels in the north if your roof pitch is below 15° then you get around 40% due to ambient light
It looks like another example of where the infrastructure is organised to maximise profits for companies, while jo public think the infrastructure is there to supply them with power.
I have an array of 13 x 300w panels, 6 face East and 7 face West. Each panel has its own micro inverter as my understanding is a single inverter works at the output of the lowest generating panel, so would be very inefficient for my array. Chimney stacks and other obstructions can shade one or more panels so could affect the total output if they didn't have their own inverter.
Micro inverters don't seem to be mentioned by many people when talking about PV arrays.
P.S. I can see a barn behind us where the whole South facing roof has been covered in an array of nearly 300 panels.
You may find your micro inverters are wasting power, they use power them selfs and unless a panel has different shading it’s not needed, your 2 arrays can also go in the inverter as string 1 and string 2 meaning no micro inverters needed
A normal string, having no micro inverters or optimisers, will be limited by the performance of the weakest panel. My original system, 4 kW south facing, was a normal system when installed. One morning in the summer I had to get up early and watched the way the roof was illuminated by the sun - I have some shading from an adjacent building. I was gobsmacked as I saw that my 95% illuminated roof was only producing about 250 watts! Over the next few minutes the output shot up to 2.5kW! I’d never have believed it unless I’d seen it myself. At the time my system was 7 years old with no monitoring app or anything. I had it upgraded, using the same panels, using Solar Edge optimisers & inverter & the problem was totally resolved. I reckon the elimination of shading gave me about 7% more overall output.
So, yes, they do use a minimal amount of power - but in some instances can work out more efficient despite that. If you have a clear southern view with no shading then they aren’t the way to go - but life isn’t always like that is it.
You said it there - you lost a few minutes of generation by shading issues. If the shading issues were consistent, sure, pay for solar edge (or similar)
@@NicolasRaimo One of my East facing panels is partially shaded by a dormer window so would reduce the output of the other five for a few hours. Similarly those West facing panels shaded by a chimney stack would reduce the output for a few hours. Not all installations are simple.
I think if you suffer from shading then fine but I would not use them ,the cost and then I see it as extra failure points which then means scaffold and labour costs again. I went to a system on a 4 as story block of flats and the system had micro inverters fitted .nothing was ever in the way for shading , and the fault was a Nicro inverter problem.
Would it not make sense to use bifacial solar panels for garden fencing?
Solar panels cost only around £45/sqm which is a lot cheaper than a single brick garden wall which is closer to £100/sqm
So a brick garden wall for £100/sqm or a solar garden wall for £45/sqm? Give me the latter
Yes wooden fences are cheaper at around £10/sqm but they rot and need replacement every so often plus painting plus the wind knocks them down etc. I'd rather pay £45/sqm once for the solar panel fence than pay £10/sqm for the wood fence which I'll need to repalce multiple times plus pay or do the labour multiple times
There is a vast potential to add a lot more solar at low prices if fencing was solar panels rather than crap wood or expensive brick
If the average garden is 15 meters deep and you install 2 meter tall solar fences youd have 30sqm of area = approx 6KW additional solar per house
They don't need to be as productive as roof panels as they would be cheaper to install especially if you account for the cost as cost minus saving of other form of fencing
Really interesting information … thank you.
In UK, do you have to inform DNO if you are not exporting to grid and have an off grid inverter fitted? It seems strange if yes because most off grid inverters won't burden the grid even if its just used as a charger input on a relatively small array with some basic storage. Now I'd be interested in knowing loop holes, like what happens if you later upgrade to say 2 seperate off grid systems, each less than 4kw as some have a parallel output functions
10kW array, 6kW inverter, 20kWh LiFePo4 batteries, two fingers up and disconnect from the grid
My DNO came back the same day!
for a g99? WOW!
Just untie them from the grid and put in what you like, in south Africa if you send electricity back to the grid you get charged, their systems go into idle when you not using the power generated ...
I got a 9kW array fitted, with an 8kw inverter back in November 2020. My g99 process went a bit like:
DNO: We can agree to this 10kW inverter, so long as you pay us £7k
Installer: Can we export limit and get approval for free?
DNO: No
Installer: But I can fit a 3.68kW inverter and not ask for permission, so why can’t I fit a 10kw inverter with export limitation?
DNO: OK, you can export limit to 5kW for free, but it needs to be an 8kW inverter. You need to reapply, and you’ll hear from us in due course.
Total horse trading!
So there’s more to it than admin. I measured my AC voltage, and during 5kW exports it was getting close to 247Volts. The legal upper limit is 252 Volts. So there are technical limitations to export. If I could export all 8kW then I’d probably be right on the voltage limit.
Now one option is to go off grid. You can have a transfer switch, and have your inverter completely disconnected from the grid. Then there’s no DNO approval needed at all. Now you need an off grid inverter of course, and you miss out that juicy octopus agile outgoing tariff. But if the alternative is being saddled with a £7k network upgrade bill then why not?
If you want to go a bit more complex, you could have two inverters, one on grid at 3.68kw and one off grid. You then transfer your PV from one inverter to another with a DC transfer.
This way you still have grid access if you’re coming up short of Solar / Batteries. You need an installer who’s happy to do non standard design work, but this would work.
Rooftop solar actually suffers in Australia as well although you're usually just limited by how much you can export vs total system power 10KW is pretty common in New installs now our grid is massive and kinda old so there are major transmission issues as well. Still you can get pretty good generation even in winter here so not complaining.
You could place solar panels on the north. But you would lose 25 to 30% efficiency. East/west is a lot better, like you’ve told us. 👍
I'd of expected it to be EVEN worse than that!
Yeah I checked on the energy savings trust calculator and it's really not as bad as you think
@@NicolasRaimo it would be a bit worse in Scotland or the northern parts of England.
Yep, I had all this BS. I had to fight to get a 5KW inverter and I have 5.9KW of panels.
bit of a misconception the rule is that you yourself can only fit upto 4kw, companies can fit more than that
I don't care what their rules say, my next house will be a bungalow with a large solar array, gas boiler with Stirling engine generator and a standby generator all running through a Victron Quattro and with about 30 Kwh of battery storage. The 50p per day (ever increasing) cost of the standing charge will probably cover the fuel cost of occasional use of the standby generator.
we had 14 panels on (4.8kkwh) installed on west faced roof with 3.68kw inverter and the company was quite reticent to not do the work to get more panel on the east side for complimentary morning sun, even with an extra inverter. i never seen anybody refusing to take on more work and money :(
Did you manage to get it installed? (as long as the inverter g98 limit wasn't removed it would just flat line at 16A witch is around 3.7-4KW depending on how high your local grid voltage is)
I had the same issue with my recent solar install. Happy to put in a 4kw array on a south facing roof but refused a 6kw array as they said the DNO would reject. We already have a 4kw east facing array and adding the new array was very simple. I plan in the next year or two to add another 4wk array. I am fortunate to have lots of roof space on a few outbuildings plus some land, so I may look to do a ground mount array that tracks the sun. we will have a second EV by that point and possibly a third as my son is about to take his driving test. We also have a powerwall 2 with gateway, so even if the grid went down, we would not send energy to the grid, so the DNO should not object to our third array, or at least that is what I am hoping for. I agree with the points you made re DNOs as well. cheers J
We just don't export, as we keep it all to ourselves, it either goes into our Sunamp, one of 2 EV's or the 31.5kWh battery bank, and in autumn and spring we uses Infrared Panels, and in the winter months I just fill it all with cheap renewable energy over night and run our ASHP off one of the cars using a Setec unit.
16 amps ( per phase ) are the G3 rules. This is to stop the infrastructure being overloaded. You can install more with permission, and assesment.
Basically, the grid can't handle too much electricity. Same reason we see wind generators not spinning on windy days. It's more cost effective to shut down the equipment that's costs more to maintain. MONEY.....
Exporting to the grid has few problems, one being the SEG payments are paltry and the necessary grid tie inverters are expensive and prone to failure. Better to use the excess power to heat water and save on expensive gas and reduce carbon emissions.