Wiring LED and Semaphore Signals at Chadwick Model Railway | 135.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มิ.ย. 2024
- Wiring signals with some automation might be eaiser than you think.
Here's how it's done at Chadwick without computer automation.
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Dapol Semaphore Signal Controller DAP1-NS
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Charlie, thank you for taking the time to try out my products. Really thrilled to see that you were impressed by them. It means a lot to me to know that you are using them on your layout. Best regards, Steve Heaton, BLOCKsignalling.
They seem like decent products Steve; Charlie isn't easily impressed.😁👍
Thanks for the comments Steve and yes they worked faultlessly straight out the box. One thing that did impress me off-camera was the very small ferrules that you use, perhaps you can give me a lead to where you purchased them from? Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway The ferrules are E0308, here:
www.aliexpress.com/item/2025169625.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.1ec64c4dk6zKC6
I have a pricey Weidmuller crimp tool, but there are plenty of low cost crimp tools available now which should suit the ferrules and also kits with a crimp tool and selection of ferrules for under £20.
Steve.
@@BLOCKsignalling what is the product description and code for the product used with the Semaphore signals, please. Keen to purchase
All done with bells. Someone probably already mentioned but just in case the Signal Boxes were connected by telephone and bells. Bell codes told the next Signal Man what was coming; by the number of bells and would ask if the box was clear to move said locomotive up the line. There were hundreds more boxes in the 1930’s as so much was done manually including giving the men in the cab a key when they passed which unlocked signals in the block they were passing through and was another layer of safety. This was brought about by accidents such as the Clayton Tunnel near here in Brighton as trains became more frequent and faster in the last quarter of the 19th century. Great video. Thank you.
Great info Sarah, many thanks, Charlie
A chap used to make my signals for me, as I did not have the dxterity.However, I hit on a wiring method to use 4 aspects, changing manually by be as the loco went along, so it follwed the green 2 yellow, single yeellow and sed aspects in sequence..........Loads of wires under the basboard, ut it did work .....and I was really pleased that someone my age, still had a little brain activity...Thank You Charlie........well done......Merry Xmas from Howard,..............
What a heart warming comment Howard. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
Hello charlie, Im John in New Zealand . I use Heathcote Electronics With Train Tech Signals. By the way Im 80 Years old. A Swanage Railway Member. Yours J F N
Thanks Fred, it’s great to have you onboard.
Hi Charlie. If no-one else has commented on how signal boxes clear semaphore signals. It's really quite simple, in that, if one assumes there is only a straight section of track controlled by one signal box, to be able to show a clear Distant signal, requires the Home and Starer signals to be cleared first.
If either or both of the Home or Starter signals are On (showing a Stop position), then the distant will be On, only showing a Yellow light. I am a retired signalman.
Thanks David, much appreciated. There’s many a signalman who advised me on this one. Regards, Charlie
As a Signal Engineer it is tempting to go into loads of detail about how your interpretation is wrong, but as someone else has said, for most of us it does not matter whether it is totally prototypical.
Starting with Absolute Block signalling (the old little signalboxes along the line with levers) they can be done with semaphore or colourlight. All the signals for a signalbox would normally be at danger (or caution for the distant signals). On approach of a train the signaller would hold the signals at danger until the train was close to each stop signal because the distance between them would not normally be sufficient to stop the train from line speed. Each signal would protect part of the station limits (the bit controlled by the signalbox). The signals on the approach would be called home signals and there could be an outer and inner home, or just the one. The signals going away towards the next signal box are called starters and there could be an advance starter as well.
If the signaller has got permission from the next signalbox for the train (using the block bells and instruments) then they clear the home signal(s) and starter(s) in sequence and then can clear the distant signal to show green. That tells the driver that all the signals controlled by that signalbox will be showing proceed and they do not need to slow down.
If one wanted it to look really realistic then it would be nice to be able to trigger each of the signals to clear from your control panel but for the passage of the train to cause the signal to go back to danger.
Totally agreed and very well explained If we modellers want to include signalling on our layouts then why indeed not follow prototypical form it makes for a very interesting scenarios 👍
Glad you wrote that one John, wasn’t looking forward to try and explain absolute block concisely, Charlie plenty of articles online about absolute block and diagrams explaining about block instruments etc, google is your friend, Once again Charlie, you are right though when it comes down to it, it is model railway and only you can decide what looks right for you and your pockets
Great comments guys, and let’s be honest installing semaphore signals that work prototypically with automation is an absolute nightmare. Regards Charlie
Back in the late eighties I was released from train driving for a period to help make in house training films. Though dated now most are online now look for “principles of signalling” parts one and two. Films show a lot of the above and will include some shots of very old types a lot now vanished and of course more modern colour light signals. Real signalling easy but trying to wire up model layouts I’m finding a nightmare. I want a mixture of semaphores controlled manually with levers and colour lights both auto and semi auto and track circuits!
@@jdavis460 excellent link for us modellers Brian I do have access to RSSB but as you may know I cannot share it word for word here.
Charlie, you've created a monster. For all these years, I've just ignored the idea of signaling a model railroad; thinking it is really just gilding a lily, so to speak. Then, you publish your last video and get me to thinking. . . . not always a great idea. So, I order Dave Abeles' recently published book (Guide to Signals and Interlockings - Kalmbach) and spend a couple of hours literally just scratching the surface of the subject, you then post this video - and now I'm completely immersed in masts, cantilevers, and semaphores! You're a bad man, Charlie Bishop!! Seriously, I'm loving the subject, and look forward to more from you on it. As always, thank you for the great lesson!
What a heartwarming comment Pat.You’re too kind. But I do apologise if I have sent you on a journey that you could well regret! Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway don’t worry guys, over here in Australia with my first ever layout and Charlie has me tinkering with semaphore signalling too 👍👍👍
With semaphore signals, blocks were very much still in use. In the majority of cases, there would be a signal box at the end of each block, and they could communicate with their neighbouring signal boxes with an electric telegraph. If a train was standing at signal box A, and needed to go to signal box B, then A would first contact B with the telegraph, and ask to send a train through. If B replied in the affirmative, then A would clear all if their signals ahead of the train to clear, and B would clear all the signals the train would have to pass before coming to stop, for example in a station. Each line would typically have multiple signals controlled by a box, and the outer most signals marked the start and end of the block.
Semaphore signals worked in much the same way as colour light signals, except for the fact that the supporting infrastructure was less sophisticated.
Thanks Sam, very informative.
My interest in model railways started in the early 1960’s when Christopher Trace and Vera McKechnie presented Blue Peter on TV. A simple oval of track with one siding was an absolute marvel to me! As their layout progressed, I found myself spending more and more time doodling fanciful layout plans on pieces of paper - something that persisted until the 1980’s! Working out the cost of these layouts usually put them to bed pretty quickly. I am not a rich man!
I have built a few layouts in my time, but they were never finished. Are they ever?
With age and failing health and mobility, I find myself no longer able to physically pursue the hobby, but your videos help me to enjoy my never-failing interest.
I was, some would say, a fairly skilled scratch builder, particularly of buildings, back in the day. I enjoyed those days, perhaps enjoying the builds even more than running the trains.
I did finally have a room-sized DCC layout, but as it neared the scenic stage, I knew that I was not going to be able to continue and it was taken down.
Your videos allow me to continue to marvel at the technological advances being made in model railways. I’m slightly envious. Had I been born 50 years later, and considerably richer (🤭😆) my layout now might have challenged yours - but then again, I doubt it!
Thanks, Charlie. Your videos give me so much enjoyment. Your ‘A nods as good as wink’ attitude keeps me entertained and I look forward to every new instalment.
Please keep doing what you’re doing. You’re making this old guy a happy person. 👍👍
What a heartwarming comment. I’m so pleased that I can bring some enjoyment to you even though you’re unable to build your own. Regards Charlie.
Hi Charlie ... I nearly missed this video ... and regarding signals and Blocks ... and being a member of MEREG ... Julian one of the members developed a brilliant means of stopping trains at a red light with a very small PCB of electronics and a section of isolated track ... I designed the PCB's and have 2 types of boards, Red light stop and Station stop ... and the way it works is it sends a stop DCC code to the locomotive in the brocken section which stops the train, once a Red light changes to green it sends another DCC code to start the train ... in a station it stops the train for a predetermined time ... and it works on any locomotive ...
A very interesting concept John. Many thanks, regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, I always look forward to your videos and have got some great hints and tips from you. I would like to now pay you back for those. I was a train driver for about 25 years, I then went on to be a driver trainer before I left the railway for a short while, and now I'm a signaller at a very busy London Area Signalling Centre, (ASC). So, very basically, a controlled signal will always be 'on' i.e. at its most restrictive unless the signaller clears the signal. This means a stop signal will show danger and a distant or repeater signal will show caution. This is the same whether under Absolute Block (AB) signalling (Semaphore) or Track Circuit Block (TCB) signalling (normally Colour Light). Where these great gizmos that you show us really come in useful is for automatic sections on TCB lines. For example, you have several signals on a stretch of line where there are no points (crossings or junctions) and the passage of the train would be used to operate the signals. However, where you have points, the signaller will have to decide where the next train is to go (or come from) so will have to set a route prior to clearing the signal. That is why controlled signals are always normally 'on'. (At danger). In modern signalling the passage of the train will put a controlled signal back to danger, however, the signaller would then have to re-clear it. In AB / Semaphore signalling, the signaller would have to physically return the signal to danger and then physically clear it again. I hope this helps and gives you a basic idea. if you wish for any more information, please don't hesitate to ask as I have only gone over signalling at a very basic level. Keep the videos coming. Paul Kendrick.
A great comment Paul and great facts to absorb. I have also replied by email. Regards Charlie
To me as a DC railway modeler this video really emphasised the difference between DC and DCC. As for DC the safety measures are really build in to the trackwork (power on/of with appropriate signal lighting on/of as well) as for DCC the safety appears to be build in the programming of the locomotives. Quite interesting really 👍
Yes Rob sadly they are worlds apart and even further as technology develops.
Its funny really, most of the time I have no idea what Charlie is talking about mostly due to the fact that I am not a modeler...yet, however, he is SO GOOD at telling the story as it were that i am rivited to my seat listening to every word and watching every step. I really like this guy, he does his best to explain every detail. Im sure that he hopes that not everyone watching is as daft as I am...lol
I’m with Ian, the toggles work just fine! Lol
Too true Rick.
Beyond techie..
I understand about 30% of this, but it is your show that gets first immediate viewing whenever it pops up on the TH-cam notification.
Serious and great fun too.
Cant wait to get back to going to model railway exhibitions...but these vlogs are as exciting. Thanks.
This of your vlogs is a tour de force and clearly highly technical.
But mostly full of enthusiasm.
More strength to your progs.
Ive just gotta work out my ideal 1930 time-machine "dwell time" between sips from my tea mug!
Back to school indeed.
What a heartwarming comment ML. Good luck with your layout, regards Charlie
Charlie - great video as we have grown to accept from you.
Not a signalling comment, but Charlie, you really must deal with the scenery at the viaduct. The sky is far too low. The land wouldn't simply disappear here and the sky would not be this low. You'd see a valley and land in the distance.
Great channel mate.
Andy
It’s a dilemma Andy but probably too late to change it now. 😢
An invitation quite possibly, to come up to the Crewe heritage railway, and come and have fun in a signal box. Exeter south... all computerised and mimicked.. but a fun day out. You will be in your element. Ding ding..
Much appreciated Kris, regards Charlie
Well, a topic like this I'm surprised not to see you supplementing the 'Chadwick' polo shirt with a flak jacket, Charlie! The bottom line perhaps ought to read "Signalling - here live ye Dragons!". Seems there are basically two paths to choose from - route A is to deploy signals so as to replicate as closely as possible 'real life' practice, route B is to keep it relatively simple and create a trompe l'oeil good enough to fool most people most of the time. Hmmm - just like many other aspects of the hobby when you think about it. But whichever road you choose some useful 'practical' tips on wiring stuff in - many thanks for another thought-provoking episode.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it David.
Well this really showed up to my recs....
I’m so pleased that you found it useful Rin.
Charlie,
Before I owned and ran a model shop I was IC Usability in a v.large computer company and in my humble (ex) professional opinion, the 4 aspect example is a big FAIL - how on earth do you control a loco at the same time? - all that button pressing for what is really a simple operation. Your earlier comment about using switches is more like reality and a winner - why not give more examples of simple easy to operate systems - pushrod and servo systems are very popular. More modellers are waking up to the reality that DCC is best for loco control and points & signals a totally separate system.
I appreciate the trouble you take over your show, keep it up.
Hi RH, I completely understand your point of view. With DCC operating your signals, computer control is the only effective system, triggered by the trains position.
Regards Charlie
Early in railway history, at least the GNR had the permissive system you describe. It was after a couple of serious accidents that they switched to a default danger system. At Abbots Rippon in January 1876, a signal froze in the all clear position, and the Flying Scotsman ran into a freight train that was still being shunted out of the way. After a following accident at Arlesey the GN adopted a closed block system, wherein the line is normally closed, but is opened for the passage of a train.
To me, for realistic operation, I would prefer to see a train remain stationary until a signal is pulled off. The sequence looks something like 1) the signal would be pulled. 2) The guard would blow the whistle (or ring through to the cab), 3) If indicated, the driver would whistle, 4) (for steam, blow drain cocks), blow sand, release brakes, notch up the engine and pull away.
With a couple very neat systems from the folks at www.merg.org.uk/, you could use electronic block detection to implement a full, interlocking signalling system (colour light, semaphore or hybrid). You could also use JMRI to help you achieve this.
Great piece of history LB.
Regards Charlie
And now for a comment on your junction - the route without the feather or indicator is normally the highest speed route even if it is not the straight one (although that can look odd!). If the speed of the lower speed route is more than 10mph less than the highest speed route then the signal will be restricted to help remind the driver to slow down. The most restrictive is to hold the signal at red until the driver can see it (known in the trade as MAR - Main Aspect restricted to Red). If the junction is higher speed then you can have the signal restricted to Yellow (MAY) if there is a flashing yellow in the previous signal or a splitting distant.
If the two routes do not have a speed difference greater than 10mph then both routes can have a green displayed and the direction of the feather is a bit immaterial. In your example some people might provide a feather for each route, or they will provide it for the main route or for the route that is not as straight!
I have been in meetings arguing for hours about that sort of thing.
Hi John, you’re pushing on an open door. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head as the lines that run down to the Helix will have a 70 mile an hour limit whereas the line is going to the branch station will be limited to 40. Regards Charlie
Because of the method of operation of Track Circuit Block there tend to be a lot of colour light signals which work automatically - clearing signals as the blocks ahead become unoccupied. But as a train passes into the section, the signal returns to danger to protect the train by what's known as, "first axle replacement". So, the default is obviously OFF but only until a train passes. To replicate this in model form is very complex but a simple solution might be to "simulate" it instead with an appropriate delay (the Block Signalling controller you demonstrated replicates this very nicely). Signals at junctions are manually cleared by the signalman but still replace themselves automatically immediately as the train passes.
Semaphore signals (with a few rare exceptions) are always manually controlled by the signalman. Being cleared only when the section ahead is clear and (if a junction) the points are set correctly too.
These signals are replaced as the last vehicle passes and will remain at danger until the block ahead is clear. Only then may they be able to be cleared again when required but will not do so automatically.
The above is an oversimplified description and brief overview of operation and doesn't take into account 3 or 4 aspect colour lights or (in the case of absolute block) distant, section and home semaphore signals nor instances where there is a mix of semaphore signals and colour lights which is quite common too.
I do hope this has been helpful? It's a complex subject and difficult to cover by way of a short(ish) reply. As time moves, ever more sophisticated products are becoming available to control and automate the various aspects (excuse the pun) of model railway signalling and the accuracy of how this reflects real life is astonishing compared with just a few years ago.
An excellent comments, Garry. As you say, this is a very complex subject, which bewilders most. Regards, Charlie
SIGNALS AND SENSOR POSITIONING - 2
Charlie, I forgot to say that if sensors were fixed well ahead of the signals they actually operated, it would be possible to replicate the clear road ahead for a train, (be it fast moving or otherwise).
In the case of a fast train this would replicate 'signalling blocks' being cleared well ahead of the train, as per operating practice.
Of course, this would mean a little more wiring having to be done, but nothing too technical.
Obviously the use of reed switches, (as I mentioned previously), would facilitate the same process.
James Hennighan
Yorkshire, England
Thanks for the clarification, James. Regards, Charlie.
Excellent video Charlie.
Problem with using a single resistor is that the current limiting is shared between all the LEDs and as different colour LEDS have different forward voltages and currents you get dimming when two or more are used. I've always used a hybrid of the two methods - the LEDs are wired in common cathode arrangement, but without a common resistor. Then each LED has its own resistor of the correct value to ensure the brightness is uniform across all LEDs. I tend to use resistor values that restrict the current so that the LEDs are not ultra bright, but more "scale" like. This way the signals don't act as search lights or floodlights and turn night into day :)
Agree with Malcolm; the general case is each LED has a resistor of its own between the control signal and the NON-common end of the LED. The OTHER end can be commoned. This is because different coloured LEDs normally need different voltages to give the same light level. Sorry
An excellent point gentelmen.
Regards Charlie
Totally agree with Malcolm and Basil. Separate resistors allow for multiple LED illumination (for lamp testing, even if not for operational use), and fine tuning of LED brightness. Different colour LEDs have different current requirements for the same perceived brightness.
Hey Charlie lovely video. Look forward to your Traincontroller signally game video
I’m getting worried already MRT.
Eyup charlie im off down to Penzance tomorrow for a weeks break, will be visiting Kernow model shop in camborne, im going to bankrupt the mrs when i get in that shop. defo consider my last comment though mate, under shelf warm white LED lighting pointing downwards will totally stop any shadows being cast on to the backscene. and of course can be controlled by dcc too. As for grain of wheat bulbs charlie, if you power the 12v ones at 9v they can last over 50 years, i actually prefer them mate, look more natural, for leds and accurate light levels i highly recommend 6.8k metal film resistors
An excellent comment as usual. No don’t go overdrawn on the credit cards down in Cornwall! Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway I’m at kerow now Charlie, at their prices don’t think I’m going to bother! There’s a great little model train shop in Penzance high street that sell Hornby and Heljan trains, will get something from their tomorrow am looking for a decent shunter and a kit to build while I’m here mate.
I do like a good bit of signalling.
I’m with you on this one James.
Your layout is a prime example of what can be done in small spaces.
Thanks Dave you’re too kind mate.
Small space from the perspective of a farmer perhaps 😂. For the rest of us mortals, a 15’ wide (and goodness knows how long) track room would be a luxury!
Hi Charlie another interesting packed video and your line diagram to explain Anode (+ feed resistor) and Cathode (- ground resistor) easy to follow and may use it to explain to others in my workplace when wiring up charging circuits etc (Diodes one way valves).
As I am sure you are aware the flow of electricity is from negative to positive not as commonly believed positive to negative (thanks to atoms lol).
I enjoyed the different options you showed and as always your sense of humour, take care and please stay safe..
What a heartwarming comment Barry. Regards Charlie
On the semaphore particularly , is there a way of having two sensors for each block. So when train passes signal trips closed then after that segment is cleared trip sensor 2 to send signal green. I think I read somewhere that is how the real world blocks work. Actually three segments with the center one tripping a yellow caution or distant semaphore. On-a-side you are super lucky with all the trains around UK. Miss that in here in USA. I used to ride the old DMUs back and forth to Secondary school every day 15 miles in the late 70s early 80s. Shrewsbury to Wellington. And my brother before me had Steam
Yes Steve, I think that is completely achievable. However, you will need a computer program running such as Train Controller or iTrain. Regards Charlie
I was okay until you started with DCC 60,61 and 14. I thought it was a bit of a faff and if you had 2 trains, one trying to go around the bend ( which is were it drove me) and one coming out of the station you would have carpal tunnell by the time you had finished pressing buttons. Fascinating video and some of the comments from people that appear to be knowledgeable in this area are mind blowing. Stay safe and keep well. Frank
I’m sorry if it wasn’t quite your cup of tea Frank. Please be patient with me, I have to try to please everyone! Regards Charlie
Frank, remember that you are watching only one signal/point, and you should work three signals (without bi-directional working) to safely cross this conflux!
@@tomlawton7087 yes Tom that's were it looses me, I appreciated everything that Charlie said and found it fascinating, it just seemed a little complicated for my tiny mind. I love Chalie's videos because they stretch your mind but sometimes he just looses me. Frank
Many thanks Charlie for a clear, concise lesson. Back to school can be fun.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it David.
Charlie!
Finally I have understood why we are always hearing of comon negative and resistor placing! I never understood why a resistor would be placed behind what it is suppose to be protecting in the circut, but I guess it doesn''t matter, cause the resistor will limit the whole circut as long as it consumes the same energy :)
You are great at these videos!
Thomas
Thanks Thomas, that’s very kind of you to say so mate. Regards, Charlie
Yet another great video - lovely clear explanations. Nice to get a glimpse of Ian's layout too.
That’s very kind of you to say so Lee.
I shall let Ian know.
Regards Charlie.
Glad I watched this and did as you said screenshot the diagram of positive and negative cathodes and anodes. I’m building a merg kit and was confused about one thing. I had a lightbulb moment looked at the screenshot. Problem solved. Cheers Charlie
I’m so pleased that you found it useful Dave, regards Charlie
I like infrared detection at the start of a block and the end of the block without any time out. That way you can stop a train In a spedific block indefinitely. The signal would remain red untill the train leaves the block.
Thanks, 1046, that’s a very interesting concept. Regards, Charlie
Another great video which I have reviewed many times as my brother and I are now styling our layout with a well placed single signal large loft layout with a lot of complex point work making multiple signals very complicated). We fell into a trap and purchased a controller from Blocksignalling which was common anode. Having a 50-50 chance with the Beko 4 aspect signal purchased at the same time from an alternative supplier we were unable to ascertain if the Beko signal was common anode or cathode until both units arrived independently. Unfortunately for us the Beko 4 aspect signal was common cathode (although not identified as such by Beko) and therefore did not work with the controller. On reflection we note that you did say that a majority of UK signals are common cathode and we missed that 😢. Word to the wise check what signal wiring configuration you have before you purchase a Blocksinalling controller, their products are clearly identified anode or cathode. We all should learn from each other. Take care Charlie and please keep up the good work and I hope to see you at the GETS in October, Dave😊
Thanks Dave, for such an excellent comment. Yes these different signal power feeds are a nightmare. Regards, Charlie
SIGNALS AND SENSOR POSITIONING
Spot on Charlie with your remarks about the sensor being positioned slightly further back from the signal.....however, with a little thought it is possible that the sensor can replicate the slow approach of a train, say at a junction.
In this latter case, it would replicate the 'timed release' that was possible and in the hands of the signalman. My late father was a signalman, working many boxes, including Hall Royd Junction and other boxes on the Calder Valley and Copy Pit, (LYR Burnley Branch), and my own early years apprenticeship was in the S&T.
Hall Royd Junction had such a 'timed release' lever for the signal between Castle Hill and Millwood Tunnel, which was the junction approach signal for the Burnley Branch, (Copy Pit), for trains from the West Yorkshire direction. These could be coal trains for Lancashire Power Stations such as Padiham, or for Specials for the coast, (Blackpool), if they were routed via Copy Pit.
The sensor itself would seem to be a remarkably flexible bit of kit.
Obviously 'Reed Switches' could performs a similar role and function, with the added advantage that reed switches are a good bit cheaper.
Don't know if you have done so previously, but a video on reed switches would make interesting viewing.
Well done on another interesting and informative video.
James Hennighan
Yorkshire, England
An excellent comment, James, and it’s also a coincidence that I’m looking into reed switches! Regards, Charlie
Morning Charlie, regards the offering on of trains between traditional signal boxes.
A simple explanation from a professional network rail signalman 👍🏻
Box A offers a train forward to box B.
Box B accepts the train and sets his box instruments to line clear which allows box A go signal through.
Box A then clears his signals forward.
Train now enters box Bs first section - signalman changed box instruments to train on line. Signals go box A train arrived complete which allows box A to accept another train from their neighbour.
Meanwhile at Box B...
Signalman at Box B offers the train forward to Box C.
Box C signalman checks his instruments to clear he can accept.
Box C signals via bell code he can accept the train and clears his signals.
Box B after getting the acceptance bell code from box C clears his last signal allowing the train to proceed.
Train arrives into Box Cs area he then bell codes to B train arrived complete allowing B to accept another train from A etc
.
Repeat 300 times from Paddington to Plymouth !
Some stages omitted for clarity, that’s basically how it works though.
For a film explanation there is a video of the process on here somewhere.
These videos are from LMS days and describe exactly what you have just posted:
th-cam.com/video/6CZHPZAUrBo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/2nGIWOmuMhM/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/_Rso8GbZJOE/w-d-xo.html (with cow on the line!)
Thanks CR, I must admit it’s the interlocking systems that fascinates me. Regards Charlie
Absolutely brilliant!, I'm just starting out with 3 aspect signalling are of absolute aspects and dcc concepts?, now I know what ir sensors to get for signals !!, brilliant information site
I’m so pleased that you found the video useful Paul . Regards, Charlie.
massively well explained ! - great effect
Thanks Roger, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Don’t know why I watch your vlogs Charlie, my brain goes into meltdown every time haha 😆
Do you wanna try it from my side of the camera Martin!
@@ChadwickModelRailway I don’t think so Charlie not with all those part numbers you seem to know off by hart haha.
You are doing a great job that side of the camera so keep it up and I will continue to be amazed by your knowledge about all things model railway 👍
@@ChadwickModelRailway if I did all you would see would be a gibbering idiot 🤪
Hello Charlie. Big fan of your page. Love from Llandaft 009 railway, up here in sunny Macclesfield. You are an inspiration- to the point I have gone out and bought a Canon XL1s and a NinjaV. Aside from that.. soldering irons.. On bits of cable. Have you ever tried gas soldering irons.. might save your back, jiggling around with cables. It is a bit of an art, I must admit, but also use them at work and in the field all the time. Step soldering. Tim’s trains is a good website to visit. I have built many brass 009 full locomotive kits, including the chassis with my gascat 120, and my Irada 120. Temperature control comes from instinct. I must send you one to play with. Knocking on the door of about 80 quid. Works on lighter gas refills, but once you have tried it, there is no way back. ( when of course, I’m not building 5” gauge and 7 1/4” gauge locomotives.. silver brazing is a whole different kettle of fish). Good supply of LED’s is bright components.co.uk for anything LED. Llandaft is starting to look like Blackpool illuminations. That’s what comes with lots of sheets of plasticard and scratch building. I’m on FB, but planning a you-tube channel. Warmest regards, keep up the good work. Kris Lehane.009 Llandaft.
A great comment Kris. I’m very wary of buying a gas soldering iron as I’m do a fair bit of work on DCC decoders. However, I’ll certainly keep it in mind.
@@ChadwickModelRailway as long as you get the little exhaust port on the tip the right way round. Very handy for doing heat shrink, but not so great with brass kits, when you are doing step soldering on chassis.. the wee exhaust port melts everything in sight. Also applies to anything electronic.😭. I’m in the middle of building lighting.. re-wiring houses and streetlights. The little Chinese gas-lamp thingies from the internet are way over scale. Probably halfway house for doll’s houses. But if you pull them apart, cut the wee tube right down to just over a couple of inches and re-paint them, not bad. Passable as gaslight green. But Me Lighting designer, you photographer.. understand Kelvin.. regards. K.
In regards to signal 60/61 for the Junction indicator. If you’re keeping the indicator for the helix you’d need to consider flashing aspects on the prior signals for the diverging junction and that signal being held on single yellow before fully pulling off when the train approaches.
There’s a good BR video about it for more info (TH-cam search ‘BR - Signalling’ 16:58)
Hope this helps
th-cam.com/video/wAO3JbXYRnI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks Chris, I shall certainly check it out. Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie. You have generated a lot of different comments and suggestions with this one! My mind has definitely been blown. If I wasn’t already in a darkened room, I would need to go to one. Roy.
I’m already there weeping in the corner!
Very interesting points you raised/ signalled to us! I think from the outset you have to decide how the layout is to be signalled - signals triggered by the trains or signals controlling the trains, this on top of how you do your point control; else its easy to lose your way. Its certainly a minefield with so many different ways to implement, oh well the fun of the hobby - takes years, if ever to complete. The folks with signalling expertise comments below are a great help too, thanks to all. Stephen
Hi Stephen, it does appear that I’m now building my layout by committee!
@@ChadwickModelRailway As long as you are enjoying it and happy with your final solutions that is all that matters!
If the whole layout is correctly signalled you could put a camera at the front of the train and control it from a cab view while another person sets the route.
An interesting option Romano. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, only just caught up with this! And my goodness, those little modules are terrific, if only because it helped me to understand the mechanics of it all that little bit better....I think...🤔 I was looking some really simple method for signalling to get my feet wet so to speak (to my shame, I only ever had working starters at platforms and the rest were static semaphores!) and the recent videos on signalling have really helped. 👍🍻
As for the “feather” debate: on our line (c2c) there is a similar junction at Pitsea station (have a look on Google maps mate, it is just like your junction but with platforms 😜) . If you approach on the main line via Basildon and Upminster, then the approach signal UR276 just displays a mainline aspect even though you follow the tracks off to the right on reaching the station. If you are going via Stanford and Tilbury however, you are ‘counted down’ on the approach (as you can only go through the points at 25 mph and there is a level crossing the other end of the platform and the starter signal only goes off when the barriers are down) and once the proceed (yellow) aspect at UR276 is displayed, you are given given the junction indicator*** even though you physically go “straight on”. So I would suggest that the ‘main’ route of traffic would still be signalled as main aspect and the branch off would be treated as the secondary, especially bearing in mind that there can only be two more signals Max before the buffers of going to the station and the signaller would probably hold the signal at an amber to remind the driver to kill their speed 👍
(*** I should point out that at UR276, you actually get a ‘theatrebox’ route indicator displaying ‘UT’ for ‘Up Tilbury’ instead of a position 1 junction indicator arm, but the principle is the same 👍)
I am far from an expert of course mate, but I thought I’d give you an example of something with similar that I encounter regularly. Sorry if it is a bit long winded but that is why I am a driver and not a ruddy author I guess! 🤣😂😅
BTW I totally agree about the positioning of the 4 aspect on approach to the tunnel. If it were nearer the mouth, then it could be blocked from view by a train coming in the opposite direction and I don’t think they’d like a blind-sided signal on a tunnel mouth! I suppose there could be a banner repeater at the start of the curve, but I think that would just be overkill! 🙄
Cheers Charlie, fantastic and entertaining stuff as ever 🍻🍀👍
A fascinating comment Tim. This route feather choice is a great conversation piece. The truth is that it’s clearly a grey area.
I agree that a banner repeater would be an overkill so the signal has to moved away from the tunnel mouth.
Stay tuned, regards Charlie.
Another reason why signals are often overlooked is the cost aspect... Which is especially true for semaphore signals.
Something which offers the same kind of function as that 4 aspect one in the German system would end up with a total cost of 170 euro for two signal masts
Yes Ivo they are a shocking price.
Wow. I think I will have to watch that again to get my head around it. Yet another great vid Charlie.
Thanks Clive, as usual you’re too kind.
Very useful video, especially as an adjunct to Jenny Kirk’s video this week with a different method to achieve automatic signalling.
For model railway purposes, there’s no problem in treating semaphores as if they were colour lights, with a block detector beyond the signal returning it to danger before resetting to road clear. In effect this makes it an ‘automatic’ signal. In prototypical practice all semaphores would be equivalent of colour-light ‘semi-automatic’ signals, held at danger especially where protecting a junction. Prototypically, you’d also have an ‘overlap’ section of track beyond the signal so a train can come to rest safely and (hopefully) without obstructing points in the event of a SPAD.
I couldn’t agree more Will.
It’s the semaphores that give us the headaches, the illuminated ones seem straightforward. Regards Charlie
Great video about wiring up signals I have the train tech sensor signals in the word that you don’t like to use prototypical haha the sensor signals that have the feathers on I have a left hand one on the main line with the feather to the left towards a station but watching your video have I got it wrong I will have to watch your video again about the signals with feathers it’s a mine field then when you put added feathers into the mix it’s whole new ball game thanks again for these amazing videos and your humour makes it a great watch
Best wishes
Kev Beighton Parkway
Thanks Kev, but feathers are a grey area. I will install a left hand one.
Have looked at a lot of Charlies video I found him to be very interesting to listen to I have learned a lot, lots of things I didn’t know and when he explained all the working it all made sense thanks for this Charlie I will keep watching, Dave from Hampshire
That’s very kind of you to say so Dave, good luck with your layout mate and have a very safe 2022. Regards Charlie
I would say because the speed limit to enter the branch line would be lower due to it terminating, then the main line should be straight ahead and the branch would have the left feather.
I'm using the BLOCKsignalling BOD2-RLY together with an ESU ECoS detector module to control signals through JMRI. Can't fault the sensors so far, brilliant bit of kit.
That’s great news Martin, and regarding the signal, I couldn’t agree more.
I get exactly what Charlie is getting at to the end of the video. Model railways are compressed representations of the real thing. The radii of curves and the length of points are a compromise; the easier we can make the curves and points, the better it looks but the less we can fit in.
The junction is a representation, if you want it to be a representation of a flying junction and the main line is going down to the helix then that is what it is regardless of the compromises made in its construction.
An HST set going over a long streamline point at a reasonable speed doesn't look too bad from most angles, in my opinion.
Thanks for the reassuring comment CMJ. Much appreciated, regards Charlie
Re The junction signal the route indicator (feather) would normally apply to the track diverging from the main However you’re right to suggest it’s a grey area! As it depends on the line history of the railway lines concerned An example is the down line at Eastleigh The signal protecting movement in the down direction there is a normal aspect for the down Portsmouth (a left turn at the junction ahead) however the movement to continue onto the down main toward Southampton in fact requires a feather position 4 to the right This being a prototypical example of how in some cases the busier route requires a route indication.
Great examples Kev. I think we agree this one is a grey area and you could use either. Regards Charlie
The beauty of it is Absolute aspects covers all aspects of signalling at modelling level they even have what prototypically is a theatre light box on top of some signals where a character indicates the various routes it could be set for. It’s a wonderful thing to model reversible lines permissive working etc as DCC allows that in its entirety.
as usual, production, content, script all brilliant, many thanks. as an aside, best comment for the last year or so - C: Darling in your wildest dreams i bet you never expected me to have my own successful youtube channel? W: Charlie, you have never been in my wildest dreams! Obviously you are both cut from the same cloth. Keep up the good work.
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the channel Peter, it keeps us sane!
Great to see the King George V running through the layout! Cheers Richard
Yes it’s my new addition as she came back to mainline running round about 1971 so it fits in with a period. Regards Charlie
Ohhhh! Such complication Charlie! Switching points and signals is just SO complicated in respect of having addresses for each. I like to stick to manual/ relay operation of points and signals - via a proper switch! I have worked exhibition layouts and a fully loaded Deltic with 12 on - in ‘0’ hurtling towards a signal where you can’t remember its address, and a point similarly.......... well, the “Emergency Stop” got a bit of hammer!!
Yes it’s a minefield Bob.
Charlie, another good video. Mainly because it is interesting and well delivered but also you don't mind getting it not quite right (first time).
To add a complication on the LEDs. In order to choose a good value for the resistor it must be remembered that different colours of LEDs run at different forward voltages so to get the same light output different resistor values may be needed. Another factor involved is how our eyes respond to different colours of light at the same lumen output (sorry for the technical term). So if the LEDs look the same brightness with the same resistor value all well and good, but some experimentation may be needed.
I couldn’t agree more Andrew. This is one of those tasks that is never as easy as it first appears. Regards Charlie
+1 for Steven at Block Signalling. I have not used his signal controllers (yet!) but have had enormous support and about 40 of his excellent products in what for me was a very complex layout automation project. Thoroughly recommended. (I have of course no commercial or similar connexion with Block Signalling.)
Well said Graham, I couldn’t agree more.
Nice video charlie
Thanks MSMR, much appreciated
The grain of wheat style lights can be worth getting if they are cheap enough. They are usually pretty easy to convert to LED by replacing the globe with an LED and LED's tend to be cheap to buy these days.. Depends if one wants to tinker a bit :).
Yes Brendan but they do have a limited life span.
@@ChadwickModelRailway I am just rewatching this and I missed the first time when you mentioned getting a bit of negativity about missing Semaphore signals.
I thought you had done that a lot earlier in Video 104 so they could go back to that :)
It’s only the bulbs that have a short life. If you replace those with modern LEDs, they should go on forever.
As the train enters a semaphore signaled block the signal would be placed to danger. It would then remain at danger, even after the train has exited the block. The following box would authorise the clearing of the signal set at danger. This authority allows the signal to be pulled off to clear again. It only stays at clear for a trains approach.
Thanks David, it’s a dying art.
Thanks for another video Charlie. It is surprising how much semaphore signalling existed at the start of the 21st century and some still exists today. As a dinosaur, on my DC layout, I will stick to semaphore signals but then I am modelling 1948-1968 although I do like the colour light signals. Somewhere or another I do still have some 50+ year old Hornby Dublo lights and grain of wheat bulbs. But I do like the thought of LEDs.
What a great comment Don, let’s not forget from where we started this fascinating hobby. Regards Charlie
Don, have you tried replacing the grain of wheat (gow) bulbs with the larger LEDs? Similar profile, much cooler, and axial lighting decreases the light bleed.
@@tomlawton7087 Thanks for the suggestion. I will have to search the attic for them. Things became mixed up when we moved.
very enjoyable. of no practical use to me. Maybe you remember, i don't have a layout. i love watching, and you amuse me. a question. Do you have a manicurist. your nails are in good nick. I like watching close ups when people take care of themselves. very much looking forward to the nest one. Best wishes, the toulouse fan club.( only me).
A great comment Kevin. I’m manicurist? Never. Regards Charlie
Very useful .In the far north of Scotland we still have semaphore signals .I prefer them to lights .Keep up the good work.
Thanks David, it must be quite refreshing to see semaphores still around these days. Regards Charlie
I've finally subscribed. Your videos were too good for me not to !!!!. I'm looking forward to starting a N gauge modern image 2000's to now layout with classic steam traction on " specials " . Call me ambitious but I'd LOVE a Black 5, A3 Flying Scotsman, A4 Mallard, 7MT Brittania ( or Oliver Cromwell )or Princess Elizabeth with sound AND smoke !!!!. Expensive yes, but i'm sure it's doable.
It’s always doable Mark, just take small steps as you go. It can be an expensive addiction. Regards Charlie
Super and thanks , my brother was in charge of signaling between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport so next time I will ask the question. cheers
Thanks Keith I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. I may incur the wrath of your brother!
You can't but like your video's Charlie 😉👍🏻. Thanks for another fantastic informative video and thanks for highlighting the semaphore signals as I will be installing on my layout.
What a heart warming comment High Oak Junction. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
In keeping with remembering semaphores, in your next road crossing video, do mention wigwags. ha ha.
This is all great info. Thanks.
Glad to see you’re still cheerful Frank
Hi Charlie, from my understanding the minor lower speed route (the branch) would be covered by the feather. Due to the geometry of the junction the branch and the crossover would be protected by appropriate speed restrictions for each path. As the branch is a terminus it would have a lower speed restriction (reducing speed further on approach) than the main line and would normally have an amber aspect as the next signal would be a red (station). P.S. excellent video again 👍
You have hit the nail on the head Warnz.
If it’s your hobby , then you can put on it anything you like .
More than a hobby, more of an obsession!
Love the look and style of Ian's layout - simple, straight lines, not too contrived and lots of interest and changes in elevation around the track - nice!
Too True DSB.
Fully agree with what you were saying Charlie about the signalling was thinking the same thing watching Ian's layout, having the sensors after the signal and signalling red then back to default green.
I think this one is a nightmare Rory. There is no easy answer, regards Charlie
Around 9:00 yes, behind the signal to indicate block is occupied + two or three signals/blocks further to say it´s free again, but that only as far as no train could come from the other direction, crossing trains and spliting switches would have to interact somehow, too - roughly in reality signalman would have looked all of that up, telephone/telegraphed with before and next signalbox and changed the signals and switches, while shunting in the station, incoming signals would be on halt ... and more rules to follow to be [enter that word you do not like to say] -> the way you are going, computer knows in what block which train is, is better for the interactions with more trains.
Around 24:00 well more [enter that word you do not like to say]ly: first block till half the helix down red, secound block end of helix first yellow, third block through the switches secound yellow, train reached parking spot and halts it´s green at that signal - but that would be by computer based block detection, what you got anyway ;)
Around 26:00 that signal could block your station by being to near to it so coaches of the halting train would be on the switches :/
Around 27:00 well that feather system is very british - he says not knowing much about it.
"compressed" yes, model railways clearly are - no way building a block at least three times as long as the longest train for the most of us :(
Yes the trials of model railway signalling is not easy is it. Great comment, regards Charlie
I fear you may have opened pandora's box on semaphores Charlie. I have a number of the Dapol ones on my layout and they're all DCC controlled via iTrain. I think someone may have commented elsewhere, but I tend to have them configured to show danger when the block they're protecting is occupied and also link the distant signals to their respective homes accordingly. I real life, a signal box would have passed off a train and associated signalling from box to box, so normally, signals would be set at danger between box districts to prevent a train leaving one box for another before it had been handed off. But who needs prototypical, it's a lot easier to think of them as described above.
An excellent attitude Stuart. In some ways I’m pleased I’ve left them out of my layout!
Hi again Charlie, just finished watching the video...regards the MAS (Multi Aspect Signals) at the junction.
Generally speaking the route indicator (feather) would be used to signal trains from the main route ie, into loop or branch, however lol a classic example of “its thus but unless” is Cogan Junction (Cogan, Cardiff) the protecting signals for the junction have route indicators attached, however the “main route” ie the aspect minus route indicator is for the Penarth branch (dead end about 3 miles long) with the “branch” or diverging route aspect with route indicator is the mainline via Barry to Bridgend (Vale of Glamorgam) line.
Also remember with a signals you’ll have a overlap beyond the signal, usually 400 yds but sometimes especially goods loops the overlap can be much shorter but the signal will be delayed release. I’d say the junction signal at the station end of the viaduct is about right for Juntion signal, regards the signal protecting the storage area I’d say keep the signal at the tunnel mouth, have a banner repeater signal just after the junction as per real life practice on reduced sighting signals.
Also....LOL.....remember MAS come in three favours, Fully Auto - like the signal you have at the tunnel mouth trigger by the signal sections clearing in advance automatically. Semi Auto - the signaller can either switch to fully auto operation or manually call the signal as required, and manual where the signaller will call the signal every time it’s required to be set for the passage of a train.
Autos are usually on long plain line sections, semis are usually on sections with low traffic off into a loop or branch or to break up long auto sections, and manuals are in high traffic areas like key junctions or stations for example, auto signals also have the ability to be replaced to red either by the signaller (more modern versions) or by “keying to red” on the signal post by track workers,
Hope that helps.
A great comment CR.Reading all the comments it does show what a grey area using that feather is. Some regard that the fastest line should be the one without the feather, others more on its geometry. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, As always an entertaining video. We have used the point to operate the feather on our club layout via a micro switch which reduces the amount of button pushing on the DCC hand set. Regards, David.
A good tip David. Regards Charlie.
Charlie,
Thank you for anotehr thoughtful explanation of a subject that is confusing.
But, you help to sort it out.
Cheers, and stay safe
Michael
Thanks Michael, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Hi Charlie I watched with great interest all your signalling vidio's I will be using a combination of ESU servo controllers for my semaphores and MERG boards to run the light signals with a lot of guidance from one of the members of Rainhill MRC as i am scratch building some of my light signals and modifying the semaphores to suit I will be very buzy but still messing about with track at the moment, but there's nothing like being prepared is there, if i do half as well as you have i will be well chuffed Regards Alan Massie
Thanks Alan and good luck with yours.
I have a dap1 ns for controlling a digital ip point motor on a reverse loop, for my start semaphore signals I use a basic switch.
Thanks for sharing Paul.
Regards Charlie
Once again, a masterclass of explanation and technology in action. Really enjoyed it & looking forward to the next one. Stay safe Charlie.
Thanks Simon, as usual you’re too kind mate. Regards Charlie
Charlie, I’ve just rewatched this cracking video. You really do put complex subjects over in an easy to understand way. Just one thing worth mentioning that I missed on first viewing. When you demonstrate the use of the ‘feathers’ on your section of track, you show the main aspect remaining green whilst the route changes. Obviously, you’ll need to wire or program things so that this cannot happen. With the signal off it would be impossible to change the route. You need the signal at danger to operate the switch, (points), then clear the signal. I hope this is helpful. Best regards, Tony
You are of course dead right Tony, and not the 1st to mention it either! I consider myself well and truly rebriefed. Regards Charlie
Charlie, you've just sorted out my problem about the double yellow.
That’s great news Rob.
OMG, I knew there was a reason for my old ground thros. Great video sir. I always learn something!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it mate. Regards Charlie
hi charlie look forward to the next 2 weeks videos derek
Thanks Derek, it’s great to have you on board
Hi Charlie good video again would like to point out one thing with the dapple distant signal that was supplied to me the aspect on it was green and red I pointed this out to dapple that it should be green and amber so that needs mentioning I would think in your next video about semaphore signals.
Charlie and this is certainly not a criticism the terminology is the signal is clear for go at danger for stop
Cheers Stuart 👍
An interesting observation Stuart, many thanks regards Charlie
Great video Charlie, simply mind blowing!Very clever, but by the time I'd programmed the points/signals the train would be round again! 😉 😊
Technology is such a challenge in this hobby David. Regards Charlie
Sorry - one more comment on colourlight signals and them normally being green. More modern arrangements have something called Track Circuit Block where each section between the signals is proved. This allows signals protecting plain line to work automatically.
The signals protecting junctions or level crossings are normally held at red until the signaller clears them for one train (some have an automatic facility once the signaller has first cleared it). The ones in between the junctions were historically arranged to work automatically because the signaller would not control them. With modern control systems the computer can clear them when needed or make them work automatically (there is never one right answer!!).
Your most realistic signalling would be for the junction signals to be normally at red until a train is going to go through the junction with the signal in rear at Yellow and the one before that Double Yellow. When the junction is set then the signals on the approach would improve to Double Yellow or Green depending on the junction signal aspect.
But what does it matter - it is whether you enjoy the look and behaviour which is important. Yes a few "experts" will cringe when they see it but most people will not realise.
(As an aside, in the 80s there was a safety film produced by BR to remind staff about the risks of going on the track. It started with a locomotive coming out of a tunnel filled with smoke - very Hollywood. The problem was that they did not have a shot of the locomotive coming out only one going in so they just played it backwards. Everyone watching immediately knew it was wrong and spent have the video discussing what it was until they realised the locomotive was on the wrong track and had tail lights lit. Safety message was somewhat diluted!)
That’s safety film must’ve been so poorly received. Very cringeworthy. Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie, trust you are keeping well, another excellent Video Thank you.
Thanks Peter, yes indeed in these somewhat unsettling times.
always interesting pal cheers
You’re most welcome Alan
You are great Charlie. You've made comprehensible a very difficult stuff. Probably the Italian (and continental Europe in general) signaling system is even more complicated, such that for us is very difficult to be prototypical. I'm lucky: my layout consists of just a small station: two start signals, some ground signals and a protection entry signal: it's an easy win 😁 Ciao from Firenze!
Thanks Michele, I’m so pleased that you enjoy the channel.
Regards Charlie
Oh,it has no number at all,awesome as usual Charlie
Thanks Tez , regards Charlie
Brilliant one Charlie, really enjoyed this
Thanks Alan, regards Charlie
Yet another great video, thanks Charlie.
Thanks Chris you’re too kind mate. Regards Charlie
Charlie, the idea of having the semaphore default position to be 'off' (ie - clear) and only returned to danger after the passage of a train was used on a 4 track section of track on the Southern region many years ago. I have a feeling it was in the Basingstoke / Woking area. Essentially there was a 4 track mainline signalled by automatic semaphores operated by full track circuiting.
Fundamentally I was wrong 😢
That was very interesting Charlie thank you.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Tony. Regards Charlie