I proudly own a model 12 that my great, great uncle bought in 1922 and aside from the stock and grip being replaced twice from being worn down over a century it is still in great condition and cycles as smooth as a baby's behind.
I carriied a Wincheste model 12 in Viet nam in1967 with USCG boardind teams . It was liked by myself and other coasties, On my next tour a year later I was issued aan Ithaca 37 a bit lhandier. I felt well armed in both cases. Thank you for a great video.
I have a 37 that somebody cut down to 18" and put a heat shield on. Bubba trench gun. It's a handy weapon indeed. I like that it ejects and loads from the same port on the bottom. Less opportunity for crap to get into the action.
@@timothyroush7589 I’m not sure of your age but my grandfather was a WW2 veteran and so it would be my great grandfather who would have been in WW1 and honestly my knowledge only extends to my grandfather I know nothing of my great grandparents
I have a similar model, a Winchester Model 12 "Riot." It's basically the same as the trench gun, but it does not have the ventilated handguard or the bayonet mount. Mine was Illinois State Police surplus that the department sold off when they went to Remington 870s. It is incredibly well made, I think superior to most pump shotguns made today. Two things I find unique: First, it is a takedown design. It has a catch that allows it to be taken in two, the stock/receiver group and the barrel/forestock group. You could put the two halves in a backpack and have it ready to fire in under a minute. Second, you can "slam-fire" with it, holding down the trigger and getting a shot with each pump of the slide. A lot of people today think that's a bad thing, but I can tell you it is a lot of fun at the range!
In the 70's, the USAF provided Win. Mod. 12's to Law Enforcement Airman (LE's). The one I qualified with had no heat shield. It held 6 rounds, I believe. The USAF considers the 12 gauge to be a 70 yard weapon. At that range there was a reasonable chance that one pellet would hit the target ( Military attitude has it that a wounded enemy is better than a dead one).
A cylinder bore barrel with unplated 00 buckshot produces a pattern of somewhere between 6-7 *_feet_* at around 70 yards (between 70" to 90" diameter). That's... a pretty optimistic spread. However, just a few changes can easily shrink that down a good bit. An improved cylinder bore barrel with a precision crown and true-flight/pattern-controlled 00 buckshot ought to pull that pattern down to a more reasonable 4-5 foot spread (45" - 60" diameter).
U.S. Citizen and USMC Veteran here. There is no denying the legendary quality of certain firearms/weapons, and this shotgun is right up there at the top! For myself, I had/used a Mossberg Model 590 during BOTH of my deployments (I wasn't 'Qualified' for being issued it, I brought it anyway and with my C.O.'s 'Permission', kept it at my side). It isn't a Winchester, but it did everything I needed/expected it to do, w/o fail. Yes, including the 'Bear poking device' attached to the business end! While you can't 'Slam fire' the Mossy's, I never found myself feeling slighted. If you train with a standard pump action, operating it is just as fast, and MORE accurate, IMHO. (Now, if I were ever facing a stampeding horde of zombies coming at me, I might change my mind?!) Lovely firearm, and it just can't be topped, IMHO! Thanks for making this video! Got yerself another Subscriber from across the 'Pond!' :-)
When we switched carrying a M16A2 for the trench sweeper our platoon leader had all of us scheduled for fam firing it before it was put on post to make sure we knew how to use it
@@DevilDog0311 I never heard/witnessed an entire military platoon/squad/company/et al, having their standard M16/M14's replaced with the shotgun options. At most, one in a platoon MIGHT have it issued (Or as with myself, I brought my own, and carried it AND the A2). I'd also be very leery of new shooters who only 'Fam/iliar Fired' any platform, and was then chucked out into the field with them. I'd be as nervous alongside them as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs! ;-)
It's a common misconception to call that perforated sheet steel cover a heat shield. It was added on the 12ga version as preparation for the looming WWI, as a more robust and practical cheese grater for troops, with the intent of keeping down costs from replacing portable graters. Other than that, great video as always, Mr. Ferguson!
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseum Can someone check on dead ol’ John? Couldn’t help but notice his lapel gun pin pointing at his own head… for a man that pays attention to details, it seems like some sorta hint or something… one would think he’d place it on the other side, as that would be proper safety procedure. Lbs
I have a model 12 that my grandfather passed to me (still shoots) was made in 1917 according to the serial number. I was told it was my great uncles shotgun during the great war, but if so, it doesn't have the military makings or the heat shield/bayonet lug. Still a great pice of history to own and supper nice that it still works.
I have my grandpas model 12 featherweight, he bought it while he was in the USMC because he was issued one like this and loved it. So he got one for his own sporting purposes.
It's the first gun I ever bought. I got it to celebrate by 18th birthday. I still have it over a half century later. Originally I went in the gun shop to buy a Winchester 1897 trench gun, but when I racked the action open, the bolt scraped by knuckles. That's when I decided to buy the Model 12 instead.
US Army still had Winchester Model 12 Trench Guns in unit inventory at least until 1990, i was assigned one as a secondary weapon in the Infantry Company for riot control use, although i never got to take it out of the Arms Room except to clean it. Even had the checkered handle 1960s General Cutlery M1917 Bayonet which i got to keep when we deactivated the unit since they were classified as expendable Class 9 issue.
A few years ago I bought a military model Remington 870 that had been sold out of the Ohio National Guard. They were purchased for guard and military police purposes as I understand. Some say they might have been used in Kosovo but I don't know. They have a mount for the M7 type bayonet that the M16 rifle uses. The US Marine Corps also has used this type shotgun but those don't generally show up on the civilian gun market. Since the state of Ohio procured these combat shotguns, they were able to be sold off at the end of their service. A prominent engraving with the shape of Ohio and "O.N.G." are on the receiver. Prices of genuine Winchester trench guns are out of reach for me, so I'll have to make due with my National Guard Remington "Wingmaster".
Bayonets were much longer in WW1 than WW2. The British Bayonet went from someone that length to Spike around half the length in WW2, known as the Pig Sticker.
I always remember as a kid, the lesson I was taught when taken hunting with a shotgun for the first time. I'd been used to airguns & .22 rifles. An old door was propped up & I was told to shoot it with my .22. POP! & a little neat hold appeared as expected. I was then handed a an old side by side & told to shoot the same door. BANG! & a fist sized hole appeared & a shower of splinters pelted off the yard behind it. Being the UK I was then re-drilled in do's & don'ts of carrying & using a shotgun before we went off on a bunny hunt. You have to respect all weapons, but shotguns always have a sense of gravitas in my mind.
Mid-1980s, our infantry battalion in West Berlin had four military shotguns intended for ammunition guards. They never left the arms room, so I adopted one for command post security, I had fired one previously loaded with 00 shot, and liked the fact that each pellet was ~ .32 caliber, and each shell had 8 or 9 of them.
There is footage out of Ukraine of soldiers using shotguns rather effectively against drones, but it's extremely rare to see due to how few shotguns there are in service on both sides compared to AK variants. The wide spread pattern of bird shot appears to be perfect as a counter against the erratic and quick movement of drones, far more so than conventional rifle fire, including automatic fire. I would guess that the most sensible implementation is as an underslung attachment to a rifle, since it could be far more quickly deployed against an FPV drone that is suddenly appearing than having to switch to a small anti-drone sidearm or an entirely separate full-sized shotgun. No matter what will become the standard in the future, I'm pretty certain that some kind of specialized man-portable kinetic weapon will be the last close-quarters defense against drones in all armed forces from now on, in addition to electronic countermeasures and a wide variety of mobile and stationary AA platforms. We will also see more and more drone-on-drone combat, like we are already witnessing in Ukraine. I'm not so sure about net guns on the other hand. I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be primarily limited to law enforcement use. They are very safe to use near civilians, which makes them ideal outside of war zones, but have limited range, are difficult to use, slow to reload, have bulky ammunition, comparatively high cost per "round", etc.
I think you called it. If you can sneak up on the drone( from behind, etc. )they should be easy to take down. If they don't see you, you're cool. The upshot, if the bad guys are using drones, perhaps every platoon could get 2 or 3 shotgunners, rather like the current machine gun's application. Great, thoughtful response. Thanks.
@@hughbarton5743 You can't really sneak up on a drone. FPV drones for example are almost always used in combination with spotter drones flying above, which in turn are often watched by other drones, from both your side and the enemy. One common method being used right now to have some semblance of a warning is intercepting the analog live footage from FPV drones and watching it on small battery-powered screens, provided you found the right frequency. This does not work against drones that drop explosives, since those are usually (apart from FPV "dive bomber" drones and larger purpose-built military drones) modified civilian drones that are transmitting encrypted digital video feeds - which can however be jammed. At the same time, there's a constant struggle to find the enemy's drone operators and take them out, using artillery, drones or by overrunning their positions. FPV pilots in particular have to be very close to the front line, although there are methods to extend transmission range, like for example by using drones that carry signal repeaters, which do however induce unwanted latency. Russian forces recently came up with the idea of using lightweight fiberoptic cables instead of radio transmissions. These can't be jammed, intercepted, triangulated, etc. Even a relatively small drone can easily carry the weight of a several kilometers long fiberoptic strand - and it's so thin that you cannot spot it. The true future of drokne warfare however is the fully autonomous drone that can identify and attack targets without any human input. You can't jam them, there's no video feed to intercept and very little warning that they are around. This isn't sci-fi - the first examples of this terrifying new type of weapon are already being used in Ukraine. Entire swarms of autonomous drones working together are already being experimented with - and I doubt it'll take long for this technology to proliferate. Most of this is already so accessible that a reasonably motivated teenager can pull a basic drone swarm off.
@RoyalArmouries I managed to buy a 1930's Model 12 of my buddy a couple years back. Love it, but just wish I had the heat sheild and bayonett to make it the real deal. Love the video!
Beautiful example of a Model 12. As a bayonet and combat shotgun appreciator, this presses all of my buttons and I wouldn't mind adding one to the collection one day. As regards to range, some modern 12 gauge shells are capable of placing 4 to 5 (or more) 00-buck pellets on man-sized silhouettes 100 yards away. With time and load development, the 12-gauge only seems to become more relevant and effective.
Can you believe I carried the Winchester in 1991 in the US Marines ( on guard there was a post directly across the base commanders office and he felt apprehensive at having a armed Marine with a 9mm and m-16 posted there so he arranged getting a shotgun for that post and it was a ww1 era shotgun with a bayonet lug and heat shield around the barrel )
@j.robertsergertson4513 By TO&E the M3A1 .45ACP SMG was part of the M1 Abrams and M88A1 Recovery Vehicle until after Desert Storm, for clearing enemy Infantry off the tank.
(I think) The Garand Thumb chap did some distance testing with 12g buckshot, obviously not patterning well at 100 yards but each cartridge managed to get at least one pellet on target.....and thats going to sting a little.
I wonder in the future if you could add a section to your videos talking about the provenance of each weapon you feature, and how it was originally acquired by the collection. I guess not every weapon you have will those records (I'm guessing the Army Pattern Room didn't operate like a museum) but it would be interesting to learn how exactly something like this arrived in the UK, and you're uniquely placed with those records at hand. Always appreciate it when you take the time to mention the trials reports that you have available for something you feature.
My Model 1912 is nickel steel with a full choke 28 inch barrel. Its serial number is in the 56xxx range and was purchased by my grandfather. It still shoots like a dream.
In the late 1970s I was issued a shotgun for counterinsurgency operations in Central America. It had sling swivels and a parkerized finish but was otherwise indistinguishable from an ordinary Remington 870. The bayonet mount was long gone and the ammunition was plastic hulled. Most of the areas we worked in had heavy foliage and ranges were short, so it was pretty much an ideal weapon.
Another great video. More shotguns please. Also the gun lapel badge was making me nervous pointing at Jonathan's head. He always has good range discipline.
Well, that was an easy win! 4:06 It would be good if it was linked in the description. 13:41 They had evolved this way precisely due to the experiences of WW1 which showed that such old-fashioned bayonets were all too long for trench combat. In fact, that's why a lot of them were sawn off by the soldiers. 20:32 It has to be remembered, however, that other models of shotguns were ordered for both world wars, like Stevens 520 and later 620, and the Ithaca M37 started its career long before Vietnam, already being bought during WW2. 21:18 Is it though? It seems to be the heir to the L32A1, Browning Auto 5 as used during various -genoci- err 'emergencies' in South-East Asia. It's semi-auto and lacks a bayonet, while holding 1 more round. 23:05 The problem is potentially solved with things like M26 MASS and similar underbarrel shotguns, although exactly how useful they are is perhaps debatable.
A Winchester Model 12 was the first gun I ever shot. Not a military version, and definitely 12 gauge. I was 8 years old, it didn't knock me over, but my shoulder hurt for a week. I was skeet shooting with my Dad and his friends, I did OK, but of course they gave my easy shots.
One of my ROTC training cadre was a Signal Corps officer in Vietnam. Part of his duties involved tracing breaks in communications / telephone cables, which often took him up poles and down manholes in some pretty sketchy places. They worked in two-man or three-man teams armed with a M1911 pistol, a shotgun, and a M16 (in a three-man team). While they originally had 12 gauge Stevens shotguns, he also claimed that they had access to a prototype 10-gauge semi-automatic shotgun. I always doubted the last part, as the only gun fitting that bill would have been the Ithaca Mag 10, that didn't come out until after the end of US combat operations in Vietnam.
What really like about my mod12 is that you can keep the trigger depressed and it will slam fire with each stroke of the slid. Really impressive at the rage.😉
I have both a Model 97 and a Model 12 the 97 has a Cutts compensator with interchangeable choke tubes on it the Model 12 has 2 Barrels the skeet barrel has a Cutts compensator the trap barrel is much longer with a choke designed for mainly trap and waterfowl hunting. On active duty I carried both model 12 model 97 and model 37 on guard duty with no 7 birdshot. Each guard mount we had to shoot 4 rounds using out of date full brass rounds to qualify to go on a post. As there had been an incident on base where an officer was stealing ammo and his staff driver was almost killed when the recruit on duty fired at the officer missed and hit the staff car with the full buckshot pattern. So, for 2 weeks all the instructors on base pulled guard duty. One Post was on the Prisoner compound where I had tower duty with an M60 MG with order to shoot to kill if they crossed the warning wire before the Chain link fence line.
My old Master Guns was issued a Mossberg 590A1 in the early 90's for duty with the Marine Security forces, protecting the Navy's nuclear weapons. Pump action, can fit M-16 compatible bayonets. I think they still have some in stock and issue them on occasion.
We actually still had the Model 12 in the 90's when I was in the 82nd Airborne. Maybe a 6 or so in our infantry company that we would use for guard duty. They were a bit worn out, but still worked. I am guessing they were replaced by the Mossberg 590 years later. I shot them a few times with 00 Buck and they did not have a recoil pad, so they were not fun to shoot!
I spent a career in law enforcement and I remember when I was first on the job we had a guy come in that was arrested and during the strip search we noticed that he had a large number of scars on his chest that looked like a road map. It turns out a couple of years before he had been shot with a 12 gauge shotgun and a load of 00 buckshot. He survived obviously but was in the hospital for three months. It was pretty impressive seeing results first hand. I myself prefer a shotgun for home defense because most rooms are never more than 10-12 yards long at best and with a good shotgun most will pattern 3-4 inches at that distance.
Worryingly close is a good point about anti-drone shotguns because that's pretty much the status quo. Soldiers have allegedly been trying to outrun suicide FPVs or beat them down with sticks, hoping to trigger the explosives on there in some way that creates enough of a standoff to not be immediately lethal to them.
I seem to remember the late Bill Jorden writing that the issue 12 bore cartriges (US BORDER PATROL) were so old and swolen that they had to run them through the action several times to get them to work properly
This firearm is in much better condition than some recently showcased from this collection. I was shocked by the amount of rust on one weapon in a recent vid...
This is usually because they have been aquired through other sources who aren't interested in conservation of weapons. Don't forget alot of them have been through trials processes too so while they look nice they may be knackered on the inside.
Theres preserve and conserve, and there's refurbishing to the extent it's no longer a historical artifact. I'm not sure what the Armouries position is on this, but I'm sure they could explain if asked.
@@molecularalchemy7798 there is only so much they can do if the object arrives in bad condition. Sometimes attempting to remove rust or wear can cause further damage and it becomes a case of simply attempting to prevent progression. They do the best they can, whilst recognising that these are historical artifacts and it's important to preserve the original parts over replacement or recoating.
@@pluemas "replacement" of parts or "recoating" is clearly inappropriate and not preservation or conservation of firearms. That's restoration and not what I'm referencing.
It's always interesting to see a specialized British Armory bring out pretty common civilian firearms in the US. (That said I sat through the whole thing)
Shotguns, using buckshot, are best used for the average urban, forest or jungle combat distances of about 50 yards or less. (That is about half a city block.) But with slugs, they can be accurate out to about 100 yards. (Or just over a city block.) As a retired cop, I've often heard people put down the pump or semi-automatic shotguns because their magazine capacities are, to them, small. But these shotguns can easily be kept topped off during combat while still being ready to fire at a second's notice. In effect, they only run dry when you forget to top them off or run out of ammunition! I always carried a few extra shotgun rounds in my pockets. If you keep extra ammo in pouches on a belt you can grab quickly, you can carry twenty-five to fifty rounds with ease! That's usually more than enough for most situations because people using shotguns generally don't panic fire and waste shots in magazine dumps the same way as people with semi-automatic rifles and pistols. P.S. I've tried bandoliers and in my opinion, they were not as fast as pouches. They now have speed loaders for shotguns, they are fast, but the total capacity you can carry is much less, and they need to stay on your belt.
I've used a churchill shotgun(basically a remington 870) with a factory 14" barrel( in Canada shotguns can have very short barrels if it's factory made)with slugs and was surprised how accurate it was at 50 yards, with just a front site
Antidrone roles beings mentioned - I wonder if full auto shotguns like AA12 or USAS-12 will be resurrected for the anti drone defense role. A barrage of 12ga shot with low recoil in full auto like these two have might be quite effective in anti drone role.
I have an unfortunately damaged original 1917 bayonet is that blade was all I could salvage. But yeah that thing looks like a small sword or a Cutlass or something if it had a curve to it.
It would be interesting to know how much ammunition they were hauling for those. Even modern lightweight plastic cartridges are about a kg per 25 round box (paper ones would be heavier) and volume wise they are a lot bulkier than rifle rounds…
Soldiers often have a rather limited personal supply of ammo - three mags and one in the gun is typical for AKs - but then a plentiful supply of boxed ammo once combat logistics kick into gear. The initial invasion force in Saipan probably only carried what fit in the mag tubes, but as soon as they got into an entrenched position of their own, they will have been supplied with more.
The issued pouches from WW2/Vietnam canvas to the nylon LC2 type and into MOLLE I & II and the GWOT USMC FSBE and SOCOM SFLCS pouches were all made to carry total of 12 rounds held in 2 rows of 6. There was a Woodland Camo MOLLEII Pouch that held 24rounds and another type in vertical configuration for SOCOM that carries 12 00 buck inside and 4 or 6 (i cant remember) breaching/AVON rounds on the outside
I had to disassemble and de-gunk a Model 12 duck gun that my brother-in-law's dad owned. Lots of parts, and flat springs in cutouts that didn't like sharing space with grime. Can't imagine how they would tolerate trench conditions. I trained in the USCG with the Remington 870, and purchased my own, with a 20" cylinder bore barrel and magazine tube extension. It's my 'black bear on the deck again' insurance policy...
1200 wasn't a bad gun, but American sportsmen considered them to be a cheap substitute for the Model 12. The 1200 was the Rodney Dangerfield of pump shotguns, it gets no respect.
If memory serves me, there is a variant that can be mounted under-barrel on an M-16/M4, like the old M203. I believe it had the moniker of “Master key” with the sole purpose of breaching.
The combat shotgun always seems to be most useful in the jungle terrains. I feel that it is only recently that their usage in urban settings is being exploited, and even then, the usage in urban settings is much more limited when compared to jungle fighting.
I believe the US ARMY is still issuing a variant of the 590A1 which has a heat shield and a bayonet lug. I know Mossberg offers it to the public as the 590a1 retrograde.
Jonathan, there were repeating winchesters that the Indians used at the battle of the little big horn. What if Winchester made a repeating calvery shotgun at this time. In your opinion would Custer have survived ?🤔
It's like mentioned on C&Rsenal, getting hit with a whole load of buckshot from just one of these shells would be close or equivalent to getting hit by a full magazine of .32ACP from a pocket pistol.
It would have made sense for the combat loadout for these to be a whole pouch of buckshot with a bandolier of slugs in case a longer shot has to be taken. I wonder if that ever happened.
I can say that US Submarines still have 12ga shotguns be it Remington or Mossberg. These are ideal for moving around inside a submarine and for pier side security.
Shotgun and M1 rifle combo, is a bit much, I didn't know that guys actually did this. Shotgun and greasegun combo sounds a little cooler, do you know if they did that too? In my mind I'm thinking they would, why wouldn't they, it's a cool combo, but I'm probably way of.
Jonathan as the "Sommelier" was a perfect clip, well done editor!
Now i wanna see a full edit of jonathon presenting the guns 😂
Perfect
I'm loving the edits lately. I would absolutely like to see more
(but maybe not more-per-video)
Time stamp?
@@CAARaeed 21:00
My mother inherited my great grandfather's model 12. After reviewing the serial, it is dated back to 1919. What a wonderful piece of history
Indeed!
I inherited Papa's M1 Garand, and treasure it above all my other 2A 'Tools.'
:-)
I have a Model 10 from 1912, SMLE from 1916 and my great grandfather's .32 S&W Truple lock.
I proudly own a model 12 that my great, great uncle bought in 1922 and aside from the stock and grip being replaced twice from being worn down over a century it is still in great condition and cycles as smooth as a baby's behind.
"Right, I want a sword bayonet"
"Will Sir be requiring a shotgun?"
"Erm, okay - make it an attachment to the bayonet"...
Dear editor, thank you from the bottom of my heart for 17:03. You kick ass, keep doing what you do.
I carriied a Wincheste model 12 in Viet nam in1967 with USCG boardind teams . It was liked by myself and other coasties, On my next tour a year later I was issued aan Ithaca 37 a bit lhandier. I felt well armed in both cases. Thank you for a great video.
I have a 37 that somebody cut down to 18" and put a heat shield on. Bubba trench gun. It's a handy weapon indeed. I like that it ejects and loads from the same port on the bottom. Less opportunity for crap to get into the action.
Ithaca ❤❤❤❤
Royal Armories: "What's this weapon?"
Me: Grandpa's Warcrime-Stick of Democracy.
@@timothyroush7589 I’m not sure of your age but my grandfather was a WW2 veteran and so it would be my great grandfather who would have been in WW1 and honestly my knowledge only extends to my grandfather I know nothing of my great grandparents
I have a similar model, a Winchester Model 12 "Riot." It's basically the same as the trench gun, but it does not have the ventilated handguard or the bayonet mount. Mine was Illinois State Police surplus that the department sold off when they went to Remington 870s. It is incredibly well made, I think superior to most pump shotguns made today. Two things I find unique: First, it is a takedown design. It has a catch that allows it to be taken in two, the stock/receiver group and the barrel/forestock group. You could put the two halves in a backpack and have it ready to fire in under a minute. Second, you can "slam-fire" with it, holding down the trigger and getting a shot with each pump of the slide. A lot of people today think that's a bad thing, but I can tell you it is a lot of fun at the range!
The 1st Marine Division used Model 12 trench guns to shoot Japanese carrier pigeons during the battle of Peleliu. (1944)
Yes with 00 buck shot!
I bet the birds found that irritating 😳
@@arcanekrusader 🤣
@@sambowz9077 I don’t think there was anything left to fall down except a few busted up feathers
just in time for Lunch i hope
Shotguns like this really show how versatile firearms can be, especially in wartime situations.
The editor shows a lot of tlc with this video. I really enjoed it. Well done!
John as the Somm was so good. The editor had fun with this one (along with the racking reaction).
In the 70's, the USAF provided Win. Mod. 12's to Law Enforcement Airman (LE's). The one I qualified with had no heat shield. It held 6 rounds, I believe. The USAF considers the 12 gauge to be a 70 yard weapon. At that range there was a reasonable chance that one pellet would hit the target ( Military attitude has it that a wounded enemy is better than a dead one).
Which, of course, makes sense, especially if the wound disables the enemy and requires one or two comrades to get him off the battle field.
A cylinder bore barrel with unplated 00 buckshot produces a pattern of somewhere between 6-7 *_feet_* at around 70 yards (between 70" to 90" diameter). That's... a pretty optimistic spread.
However, just a few changes can easily shrink that down a good bit. An improved cylinder bore barrel with a precision crown and true-flight/pattern-controlled 00 buckshot ought to pull that pattern down to a more reasonable 4-5 foot spread (45" - 60" diameter).
@@dark2023-1lovesoni Only one pellet has to hit the target. That is acceptable by military standards.
Those were the riot model used for prisons
U.S. Citizen and USMC Veteran here. There is no denying the legendary quality of certain firearms/weapons, and this shotgun is right up there at the top!
For myself, I had/used a Mossberg Model 590 during BOTH of my deployments (I wasn't 'Qualified' for being issued it, I brought it anyway and with my C.O.'s 'Permission', kept it at my side). It isn't a Winchester, but it did everything I needed/expected it to do, w/o fail. Yes, including the 'Bear poking device' attached to the business end! While you can't 'Slam fire' the Mossy's, I never found myself feeling slighted. If you train with a standard pump action, operating it is just as fast, and MORE accurate, IMHO. (Now, if I were ever facing a stampeding horde of zombies coming at me, I might change my mind?!)
Lovely firearm, and it just can't be topped, IMHO!
Thanks for making this video! Got yerself another Subscriber from across the 'Pond!'
:-)
When we switched carrying a M16A2 for the trench sweeper our platoon leader had all of us scheduled for fam firing it before it was put on post to make sure we knew how to use it
@@DevilDog0311
I never heard/witnessed an entire military platoon/squad/company/et al, having their standard M16/M14's replaced with the shotgun options. At most, one in a platoon MIGHT have it issued (Or as with myself, I brought my own, and carried it AND the A2).
I'd also be very leery of new shooters who only 'Fam/iliar Fired' any platform, and was then chucked out into the field with them. I'd be as nervous alongside them as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs!
;-)
@AniwayasSong My unit got issued 870's back in 2015. We only got 8 for the whole battalion tho.
@@DevilDog0311 Same with me and the Benelli we had in Iraq. It was nice to get to shoot it but I still preferred my M16, specifically the A4.
Seeing it eclipse the display table with the bayonet has me pondering how tall Jonathon is
From when I saw him give a talk at a guess 6'. He was certainly taller than me and im 5'11".
7'4"
You're going to need a longer car if you want to stick him in your boot.
It's a common misconception to call that perforated sheet steel cover a heat shield. It was added on the 12ga version as preparation for the looming WWI, as a more robust and practical cheese grater for troops, with the intent of keeping down costs from replacing portable graters.
Other than that, great video as always, Mr. Ferguson!
You had us in the first half....
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseum Veni, vidi, vini = I came, I saw, I got drunk.
@@SusanPearce_H Close! My name is Vini, so it's "I came, I saw, I'm Vinny"
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseum
Can someone check on dead ol’ John? Couldn’t help but notice his lapel gun pin pointing at his own head… for a man that pays attention to details, it seems like some sorta hint or something… one would think he’d place it on the other side, as that would be proper safety procedure. Lbs
Such an iconic firearm! Still looks amazing.
I have a model 12 that my grandfather passed to me (still shoots) was made in 1917 according to the serial number. I was told it was my great uncles shotgun during the great war, but if so, it doesn't have the military makings or the heat shield/bayonet lug. Still a great pice of history to own and supper nice that it still works.
I bought a used one as my first gun. Absolutely love it, smooth and reliable. Another thing to mention is how nice the trigger feels
I have my grandpas model 12 featherweight, he bought it while he was in the USMC because he was issued one like this and loved it. So he got one for his own sporting purposes.
17:03 got me good 😆 Well done editor.
Absolutely a classic, such a cathartic reload.
It's the first gun I ever bought. I got it to celebrate by 18th birthday. I still have it over a half century later. Originally I went in the gun shop to buy a Winchester 1897 trench gun, but when I racked the action open, the bolt scraped by knuckles. That's when I decided to buy the Model 12 instead.
US Army still had Winchester Model 12 Trench Guns in unit inventory at least until 1990, i was assigned one as a secondary weapon in the Infantry Company for riot control use, although i never got to take it out of the Arms Room except to clean it. Even had the checkered handle 1960s General Cutlery M1917 Bayonet which i got to keep when we deactivated the unit since they were classified as expendable Class 9 issue.
A few years ago I bought a military model Remington 870 that had been sold out of the Ohio National Guard. They were purchased for guard and military police purposes as I understand. Some say they might have been used in Kosovo but I don't know. They have a mount for the M7 type bayonet that the M16 rifle uses. The US Marine Corps also has used this type shotgun but those don't generally show up on the civilian gun market. Since the state of Ohio procured these combat shotguns, they were able to be sold off at the end of their service. A prominent engraving with the shape of Ohio and "O.N.G." are on the receiver. Prices of genuine Winchester trench guns are out of reach for me, so I'll have to make due with my National Guard Remington "Wingmaster".
Jeez, you could could poke across the whole battlefield with that thing.
Oh, yes - concealed carry it isn't! Unless you have very long trousers...
Wait until you see the Mosin-Nagant with a bayonet, damn near reaches all the way from Moscow to Berlin.
@@Stupetin I raise you the type 38 with bayo
Bayonets were much longer in WW1 than WW2. The British Bayonet went from someone that length to Spike around half the length in WW2, known as the Pig Sticker.
I love the john wick bit. Keep em coming guysssss 😂
I always remember as a kid, the lesson I was taught when taken hunting with a shotgun for the first time. I'd been used to airguns & .22 rifles. An old door was propped up & I was told to shoot it with my .22. POP! & a little neat hold appeared as expected. I was then handed a an old side by side & told to shoot the same door. BANG! & a fist sized hole appeared & a shower of splinters pelted off the yard behind it. Being the UK I was then re-drilled in do's & don'ts of carrying & using a shotgun before we went off on a bunny hunt. You have to respect all weapons, but shotguns always have a sense of gravitas in my mind.
Lived in Saipan when I was a kid. Always nice hearing it mentioned in WW2 History!
Mid-1980s, our infantry battalion in West Berlin had four military shotguns intended for ammunition guards. They never left the arms room, so I adopted one for command post security, I had fired one previously loaded with 00 shot, and liked the fact that each pellet was ~ .32 caliber, and each shell had 8 or 9 of them.
There is footage out of Ukraine of soldiers using shotguns rather effectively against drones, but it's extremely rare to see due to how few shotguns there are in service on both sides compared to AK variants. The wide spread pattern of bird shot appears to be perfect as a counter against the erratic and quick movement of drones, far more so than conventional rifle fire, including automatic fire. I would guess that the most sensible implementation is as an underslung attachment to a rifle, since it could be far more quickly deployed against an FPV drone that is suddenly appearing than having to switch to a small anti-drone sidearm or an entirely separate full-sized shotgun.
No matter what will become the standard in the future, I'm pretty certain that some kind of specialized man-portable kinetic weapon will be the last close-quarters defense against drones in all armed forces from now on, in addition to electronic countermeasures and a wide variety of mobile and stationary AA platforms. We will also see more and more drone-on-drone combat, like we are already witnessing in Ukraine. I'm not so sure about net guns on the other hand. I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be primarily limited to law enforcement use. They are very safe to use near civilians, which makes them ideal outside of war zones, but have limited range, are difficult to use, slow to reload, have bulky ammunition, comparatively high cost per "round", etc.
I think you called it. If you can sneak up on the drone( from behind, etc. )they should be easy to take down. If they don't see you, you're cool. The upshot, if the bad guys are using drones, perhaps every platoon could get 2 or 3 shotgunners, rather like the current machine gun's application.
Great, thoughtful response. Thanks.
@@hughbarton5743 You can't really sneak up on a drone. FPV drones for example are almost always used in combination with spotter drones flying above, which in turn are often watched by other drones, from both your side and the enemy. One common method being used right now to have some semblance of a warning is intercepting the analog live footage from FPV drones and watching it on small battery-powered screens, provided you found the right frequency. This does not work against drones that drop explosives, since those are usually (apart from FPV "dive bomber" drones and larger purpose-built military drones) modified civilian drones that are transmitting encrypted digital video feeds - which can however be jammed.
At the same time, there's a constant struggle to find the enemy's drone operators and take them out, using artillery, drones or by overrunning their positions. FPV pilots in particular have to be very close to the front line, although there are methods to extend transmission range, like for example by using drones that carry signal repeaters, which do however induce unwanted latency. Russian forces recently came up with the idea of using lightweight fiberoptic cables instead of radio transmissions. These can't be jammed, intercepted, triangulated, etc. Even a relatively small drone can easily carry the weight of a several kilometers long fiberoptic strand - and it's so thin that you cannot spot it. The true future of drokne warfare however is the fully autonomous drone that can identify and attack targets without any human input. You can't jam them, there's no video feed to intercept and very little warning that they are around. This isn't sci-fi - the first examples of this terrifying new type of weapon are already being used in Ukraine. Entire swarms of autonomous drones working together are already being experimented with - and I doubt it'll take long for this technology to proliferate. Most of this is already so accessible that a reasonably motivated teenager can pull a basic drone swarm off.
Fantastic Jonathan enjoyed this one .. cheers
@RoyalArmouries I managed to buy a 1930's Model 12 of my buddy a couple years back. Love it, but just wish I had the heat sheild and bayonett to make it the real deal. Love the video!
Beautiful example of a Model 12. As a bayonet and combat shotgun appreciator, this presses all of my buttons and I wouldn't mind adding one to the collection one day.
As regards to range, some modern 12 gauge shells are capable of placing 4 to 5 (or more) 00-buck pellets on man-sized silhouettes 100 yards away. With time and load development, the 12-gauge only seems to become more relevant and effective.
Can you believe I carried the Winchester in 1991 in the US Marines ( on guard there was a post directly across the base commanders office and he felt apprehensive at having a armed Marine with a 9mm and m-16 posted there so he arranged getting a shotgun for that post and it was a ww1 era shotgun with a bayonet lug and heat shield around the barrel )
Speaking of 9 mm, weren't any submachineguns available, or did said commander just dislike the marine posted there as a rule? 😀
Yup. That happens , imagine having a brand new half a million dollar state of the Art M1 Abrams and your issue PDW ,is a WW2 surplus M3 grease gun .
I had one Win 12 Trenchgun assigned to me in Berlin Brigade 1989-90, with the checkered handle 1960s contract General Cutlery M1917 Bayonet.
@j.robertsergertson4513 By TO&E the M3A1 .45ACP SMG was part of the M1 Abrams and M88A1 Recovery Vehicle until after Desert Storm, for clearing enemy Infantry off the tank.
@@adlerarmory8382thanks I know,I was there ,😁
(I think) The Garand Thumb chap did some distance testing with 12g buckshot, obviously not patterning well at 100 yards but each cartridge managed to get at least one pellet on target.....and thats going to sting a little.
In the late 70s/early 80s my unit in the US Army still had a few old Winchesters in the armory. Didn’t have the bayonets to mount on them sadly.
I wonder in the future if you could add a section to your videos talking about the provenance of each weapon you feature, and how it was originally acquired by the collection. I guess not every weapon you have will those records (I'm guessing the Army Pattern Room didn't operate like a museum) but it would be interesting to learn how exactly something like this arrived in the UK, and you're uniquely placed with those records at hand. Always appreciate it when you take the time to mention the trials reports that you have available for something you feature.
My Model 1912 is nickel steel with a full choke 28 inch barrel. Its serial number is in the 56xxx range and was purchased by my grandfather. It still shoots like a dream.
I love the Win 12 series. Ive got a really old Win 1200 Ranger and still use the old girl. Excellent shotgun.
In the late 1970s I was issued a shotgun for counterinsurgency operations in Central America. It had sling swivels and a parkerized finish but was otherwise indistinguishable from an ordinary Remington 870. The bayonet mount was long gone and the ammunition was plastic hulled. Most of the areas we worked in had heavy foliage and ranges were short, so it was pretty much an ideal weapon.
As cpl Jones would say "They don't like it up 'em".....
Another great video. More shotguns please. Also the gun lapel badge was making me nervous pointing at Jonathan's head. He always has good range discipline.
"Keeper of Arms & Artillery" has got to be the BEST job in the world to have!
Well, that was an easy win!
4:06 It would be good if it was linked in the description.
13:41 They had evolved this way precisely due to the experiences of WW1 which showed that such old-fashioned bayonets were all too long for trench combat. In fact, that's why a lot of them were sawn off by the soldiers.
20:32 It has to be remembered, however, that other models of shotguns were ordered for both world wars, like Stevens 520 and later 620, and the Ithaca M37 started its career long before Vietnam, already being bought during WW2.
21:18 Is it though? It seems to be the heir to the L32A1, Browning Auto 5 as used during various -genoci- err 'emergencies' in South-East Asia. It's semi-auto and lacks a bayonet, while holding 1 more round.
23:05 The problem is potentially solved with things like M26 MASS and similar underbarrel shotguns, although exactly how useful they are is perhaps debatable.
A Winchester Model 12 was the first gun I ever shot. Not a military version, and definitely 12 gauge. I was 8 years old, it didn't knock me over, but my shoulder hurt for a week. I was skeet shooting with my Dad and his friends, I did OK, but of course they gave my easy shots.
One of my ROTC training cadre was a Signal Corps officer in Vietnam. Part of his duties involved tracing breaks in communications / telephone cables, which often took him up poles and down manholes in some pretty sketchy places. They worked in two-man or three-man teams armed with a M1911 pistol, a shotgun, and a M16 (in a three-man team). While they originally had 12 gauge Stevens shotguns, he also claimed that they had access to a prototype 10-gauge semi-automatic shotgun. I always doubted the last part, as the only gun fitting that bill would have been the Ithaca Mag 10, that didn't come out until after the end of US combat operations in Vietnam.
What really like about my mod12 is that you can keep the trigger depressed and it will slam fire with each stroke of the slid. Really impressive at the rage.😉
Very slick and informative video Jonathan. Thank you.
I have both a Model 97 and a Model 12 the 97 has a Cutts compensator with interchangeable choke tubes on it the Model 12 has 2 Barrels the skeet barrel has a Cutts compensator the trap barrel is much longer with a choke designed for mainly trap and waterfowl hunting.
On active duty I carried both model 12 model 97 and model 37 on guard duty with no 7 birdshot. Each guard mount we had to shoot 4 rounds using out of date full brass rounds to qualify to go on a post. As there had been an incident on base where an officer was stealing ammo and his staff driver was almost killed when the recruit on duty fired at the officer missed and hit the staff car with the full buckshot pattern. So, for 2 weeks all the instructors on base pulled guard duty. One Post was on the Prisoner compound where I had tower duty with an M60 MG with order to shoot to kill if they crossed the warning wire before the Chain link fence line.
My old Master Guns was issued a Mossberg 590A1 in the early 90's for duty with the Marine Security forces, protecting the Navy's nuclear weapons.
Pump action, can fit M-16 compatible bayonets. I think they still have some in stock and issue them on occasion.
We actually still had the Model 12 in the 90's when I was in the 82nd Airborne. Maybe a 6 or so in our infantry company that we would use for guard duty. They were a bit worn out, but still worked. I am guessing they were replaced by the Mossberg 590 years later. I shot them a few times with 00 Buck and they did not have a recoil pad, so they were not fun to shoot!
I spent a career in law enforcement and I remember when I was first on the job we had a guy come in that was arrested and during the strip search we noticed that he had a large number of scars on his chest that looked like a road map. It turns out a couple of years before he had been shot with a 12 gauge shotgun and a load of 00 buckshot. He survived obviously but was in the hospital for three months. It was pretty impressive seeing results first hand. I myself prefer a shotgun for home defense because most rooms are never more than 10-12 yards long at best and with a good shotgun most will pattern 3-4 inches at that distance.
Worryingly close is a good point about anti-drone shotguns because that's pretty much the status quo. Soldiers have allegedly been trying to outrun suicide FPVs or beat them down with sticks, hoping to trigger the explosives on there in some way that creates enough of a standoff to not be immediately lethal to them.
That thumbnail just screams "i'm terribly sorry sir but i cannot allow you to trespass across my shrubbery"
I seem to remember the late Bill Jorden writing that the issue 12 bore cartriges (US BORDER PATROL) were so old and swolen that they had to run them through the action several times to get them to work properly
WW 1. Metall shell, no cardboard problem’s
Plastic later
The Mossberg 590A1 laughs at your statements, still in service with a pump action and bayonet lug.
K
This firearm is in much better condition than some recently showcased from this collection. I was shocked by the amount of rust on one weapon in a recent vid...
This is usually because they have been aquired through other sources who aren't interested in conservation of weapons. Don't forget alot of them have been through trials processes too so while they look nice they may be knackered on the inside.
@@jamesabbot-cole6814 They're obligated to preserve and conserve their collection, this is a basic principle of stewardship.
Theres preserve and conserve, and there's refurbishing to the extent it's no longer a historical artifact.
I'm not sure what the Armouries position is on this, but I'm sure they could explain if asked.
@@molecularalchemy7798 there is only so much they can do if the object arrives in bad condition. Sometimes attempting to remove rust or wear can cause further damage and it becomes a case of simply attempting to prevent progression.
They do the best they can, whilst recognising that these are historical artifacts and it's important to preserve the original parts over replacement or recoating.
@@pluemas "replacement" of parts or "recoating" is clearly inappropriate and not preservation or conservation of firearms. That's restoration and not what I'm referencing.
One of the best shotguns ever made.
It's always interesting to see a specialized British Armory bring out pretty common civilian firearms in the US.
(That said I sat through the whole thing)
Shotguns, using buckshot, are best used for the average urban, forest or jungle combat distances of about 50 yards or less. (That is about half a city block.) But with slugs, they can be accurate out to about 100 yards. (Or just over a city block.)
As a retired cop, I've often heard people put down the pump or semi-automatic shotguns because their magazine capacities are, to them, small. But these shotguns can easily be kept topped off during combat while still being ready to fire at a second's notice. In effect, they only run dry when you forget to top them off or run out of ammunition!
I always carried a few extra shotgun rounds in my pockets. If you keep extra ammo in pouches on a belt you can grab quickly, you can carry twenty-five to fifty rounds with ease! That's usually more than enough for most situations because people using shotguns generally don't panic fire and waste shots in magazine dumps the same way as people with semi-automatic rifles and pistols.
P.S. I've tried bandoliers and in my opinion, they were not as fast as pouches. They now have speed loaders for shotguns, they are fast, but the total capacity you can carry is much less, and they need to stay on your belt.
I've used a churchill shotgun(basically a remington 870) with a factory 14" barrel( in Canada shotguns can have very short barrels if it's factory made)with slugs and was surprised how accurate it was at 50 yards, with just a front site
Antidrone roles beings mentioned - I wonder if full auto shotguns like AA12 or USAS-12 will be resurrected for the anti drone defense role.
A barrage of 12ga shot with low recoil in full auto like these two have might be quite effective in anti drone role.
Blimey! That's in good nick!
Great shotguns and that M-1917 "Pig Sticker", too!!
I have an unfortunately damaged original 1917 bayonet is that blade was all I could salvage.
But yeah that thing looks like a small sword or a Cutlass or something if it had a curve to it.
"The Camera Man is Keeping His Drone Far Away from Jonathan" lol :)
It would be interesting to know how much ammunition they were hauling for those. Even modern lightweight plastic cartridges are about a kg per 25 round box (paper ones would be heavier) and volume wise they are a lot bulkier than rifle rounds…
Soldiers often have a rather limited personal supply of ammo - three mags and one in the gun is typical for AKs - but then a plentiful supply of boxed ammo once combat logistics kick into gear. The initial invasion force in Saipan probably only carried what fit in the mag tubes, but as soon as they got into an entrenched position of their own, they will have been supplied with more.
Probably 18rds I'd think. 6 in the gun, 6 in each pocket.
The issued pouches from WW2/Vietnam canvas to the nylon LC2 type and into MOLLE I & II and the GWOT USMC FSBE and SOCOM SFLCS pouches were all made to carry total of 12 rounds held in 2 rows of 6. There was a Woodland Camo MOLLEII Pouch that held 24rounds and another type in vertical configuration for SOCOM that carries 12 00 buck inside and 4 or 6 (i cant remember) breaching/AVON rounds on the outside
I had to disassemble and de-gunk a Model 12 duck gun that my brother-in-law's dad owned. Lots of parts, and flat springs in cutouts that didn't like sharing space with grime. Can't imagine how they would tolerate trench conditions. I trained in the USCG with the Remington 870, and purchased my own, with a 20" cylinder bore barrel and magazine tube extension. It's my 'black bear on the deck again' insurance policy...
I was lucky to score one of the former Ohio ARNG Rem 870 Mk1 Trench Guns surplused off for $230 including free shipping!
This must have been a terrifying weapon for trench warfare.
One of the few if not several guns I would love to own!!! What???
Good for bagging a little game too!
I own a model 1200.
1200 wasn't a bad gun, but American sportsmen considered them to be a cheap substitute for the Model 12. The 1200 was the Rodney Dangerfield of pump shotguns, it gets no respect.
Saipan must have been an absolutely terrifying endeavor, for both sides
I just put the heat shield on mine and got the bayonet, love it
If memory serves me, there is a variant that can be mounted under-barrel on an M-16/M4, like the old M203. I believe it had the moniker of “Master key” with the sole purpose of breaching.
Mossberg makes a 590a1 variant that still has a bayonet lug. It's beautiful.
I used to have one of these next to my bed when I was 14 but mine didn't have a bayonet
The 'U.S. Oddish' stamp 😇
Who's that Pokemo... wait, wrong series.
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseum "firearms expert reacts to Pokemon attack methods!"
Another cool shotgun with a bayonet
Any chance of a video on the dardick revolver, it’s wacky and a interesting concept
The combat shotgun always seems to be most useful in the jungle terrains. I feel that it is only recently that their usage in urban settings is being exploited, and even then, the usage in urban settings is much more limited when compared to jungle fighting.
useful i suspect in the upcoming Zombie apocalypse , worked well in Left 4 Dead
22:50 hatsan escort/ MPA?
Who is doing the editing?! 😆The John Wick came out of nowhere. 👍
Perfect for Home Defence.
I believe the US ARMY is still issuing a variant of the 590A1 which has a heat shield and a bayonet lug.
I know Mossberg offers it to the public as the 590a1 retrograde.
Even though I do not really like the John Wick films after the first one I would love to see Jonathan have a cameo if they make another one.
My model 12 is also an excellent deer gun
Absolute beauty
Jonathan, there were repeating winchesters that the Indians used at the battle of the little big horn. What if Winchester made a repeating calvery shotgun at this time. In your opinion would Custer have survived ?🤔
It's like mentioned on C&Rsenal, getting hit with a whole load of buckshot from just one of these shells would be close or equivalent to getting hit by a full magazine of .32ACP from a pocket pistol.
It would have made sense for the combat loadout for these to be a whole pouch of buckshot with a bandolier of slugs in case a longer shot has to be taken. I wonder if that ever happened.
Another bangin vid from Johnny furgy
One might successfully argue that most guns have an effective range of “not too far out”. 9:20
In Iraq I regularly chose the Mosseberg over the M4 but my job was almost exclusively CQ.
Reminds me of the M1897 I gave to a cousin last year.
Were did you get that lapel pin from?
Stevens 520-30 trench gun is more obscure... an very cool to boot... look it up... bonus
J.M. Browning designed it...
Don't know who is playing the next James Bond, but Jonathan should be the next Q.
I can say that US Submarines still have 12ga shotguns be it Remington or Mossberg. These are ideal for moving around inside a submarine and for pier side security.
"Ryan, be careful. Most things here don't react well to bullets"
So it’s not the Elbonian Trench Sweeper ?
Shotgun and M1 rifle combo, is a bit much, I didn't know that guys actually did this.
Shotgun and greasegun combo sounds a little cooler, do you know if they did that too?
In my mind I'm thinking they would, why wouldn't they, it's a cool combo, but I'm probably way of.
We never got issued shotguns in the army, but we got trained on them.