EEVblog 1425 - Fluke Repair 2 Electric Boogaloo
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2021
- Part 2 of the Fluke 23 multimeter repair by digging into the bunker meter archives from episode #84
Experimenting with alfoil
Part 1: • EEVblog 1424 - Fluke 2...
High energy Multimeter destruction: • EEVblog #84 - High Ene...
LCD Technology tutorial: • EEVblog #1044 - LCD Te...
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It looks like the air creeped under the polarizing filter, oxidizing the silver layer. In the center oval, more or less where the lcd pressure kept the two layers pressed together, keeping the air(and thus the oxigen) out.
Yep, this seems highly likely, perhaps in tandem with sunlight damaging the adhesive layer over time and allowing air to make its way in there in the first place.
As an aside, Dave says "You can design LCDs so you don't have black segments, you have a black background with a white segment or whatever". This used to be the first thing I'd do with my calculators as a kid in the 80s -- take them apart, flip the unbonded polarizing material and hey presto, black background with white letters.
@@gweilo8888 it doesn't need degraded adhesive. Just the exposed edge of the silvered layer is enough. The oxidation will creep through the material. You get similar with old photographs where the edges weren't sealed fully.
@@allensmithphotography The only reason I made that assumption is because otherwise they'd *all* be like this. I have numerous products of similar age whose LCDs haven't degraded in this manner.
@@gweilo8888 and that's very true that not every LCD of this type doesn't have this issue, just like not every mirror degrades the same way. It could have been that LCD didn't get as good of an edge seal. I know before I used photographs but mirrors do the same thing over time. And just as you mention not every mirror degrades to the same extent as every other just as the LCDs in this discussion
Someone: "Tell me you're experienced without saying a word."
Dave: *Begins to show an entire collection of multimeters dating all the way back to the Roman ages
Yeah ha ha wish my multimeter bin was that full
the adhesive they use to stick the polarising layer eats into the foil with UV activation...
nice collection of meters!
Any half decent electronics engineer should know this is the number one symptom of an LCD that is low on magic blue smoke, disappointed you ruined it instead of refilling it but at the very least it was interesting to see that your hack did kind of work, it was at least a cheap fix, magic smoke can be very expensive sometimes.
Zebra strips work great to repair the Fluke 120 series scopemeter LCS’s. Only works to fix the horizontal lines. Just remove the hot bar contacts and replace them with an appropriately sized zebra strip. I used kapton tape pulled tightly from the top LCD glass to the PCB in order to keep pressure on the the zebra strip. Alignment is tricky though. I had to message the zebra strip to one side or the other in order to get the contacts aligned due to the fine lead pitch on these displays.
I believe that this happened to the adhesive due to exposure to UV by sunlight. It's a common point of failure for old nintendo gameboys for example
I was trying to remember where I have seen it before. Gameboy.
Good to hear the word Zebra pronounced properly.
None of the zeebra rubbish.
I used to mess with LCD's a lot as a kid (even tempts me now, as a grown kid!), flipping the polarising film to make a negative display on old watches and stuff like that. Just seemed super cool back then how you could make such a huge difference to the look of an old Casio knockoff just with a steady hand and no money in.
Well now I'd be quite interested to see a troubleshooting session with the other meter, if nothing else just to see a damage report of what happens when you blow the ass out of it
I am a bit of a DIY'er and laid my own laminate floor panels.
For the Underfloor I used adhesive Aluminium tape, ultra smooth and reclective. That would be suitable!
Put a light source behind the backless LCD and make a projection meter!
"the alignment does not matter", but every time I tried removing an LCD with a zebra strip, some of segments were then missing.
Maybe it just got dirty, but I don't think I've ever managed to reinstall it properly.
Even when Dave puts it together at 9:50 it's messed up and missing at least one segment
If I don't need to replace an LCD, I leave the strips connected to the LCD. I've never had this problem with the 70 series, but the Fluke 10 series LCD contacts were fragile and were known to lift/get destroyed. Orientation is important, as the old boards had solder "blobs" of varying height and width, and they'd take a permanent "set" and not make good contact if placed incorrectly. I've been known to have to try all 8 combinations when I forgot how they went.
The only time I've had success reassembling zebra strip LCDs is if I clean all the pads and ITO display contacts with high proof iso before reassembly and make sure the bezel/housing that holds the sandwich together is as tight as I can get it. Any little bit of dust or shmoo on the contacts will leave a dead driver, and if it's not down tight there will be whole spans of dead segments.
@@treelineresearch3387 yep, 99% ipa makes zebra strips a breeze!
@@pyromen321 another vote for the IPA here, wish I'd known that as a kid messing with old digital clocks etc, could've saved lots of frustration... (take away from this, kids, turning to alcohol IS the answer sometimes)
As an EE/MSE person in microelectronic Fab this reminds me of making a silver mirror with silver nitrate. To demonstrate the Tollen's reagent, you can crash silver out of silver nitrate and make mirrors! I did this in highschool chemisty, but my beaker is basically brown now. I don't know if it's an oxidative state (a patina) or somehow it form a nitrate in atmospheric conditons (the nitrogen tripple bond is >9 eV).
Try some polarising film from an old lcd monitor cut to shape?
Yeah, was thinking of that, and I kept a big sheet of it, but I think it got lost or tossed in the move.
@@EEVblog There is a Samsung donor LCD panel in the room of surprises though, perfect, as you have more than one chance of getting a big enough film section.
You can also use an old TV LCD that has a broken glass, it can peel off the layers of polarizing film and successfully repair a damaged polarizer, I hope you can read this Dave, greetings from Mexico.
Excellent video! Always entertaining and educational!
The clear outline segments look pretty cool.
Bit of mucking about. But how about using Kitchen foil as a silver backing with a bit of polarising film. Held together with some photograph mounting adhesive. The polarising film can easily be obtained from any lighting outlet especially Film and TV suppliers where it's a dime a meter. Just for fun.
You could turn the meter into a special one for measuring secret voltages inside secret circuits. Just remove all the polarizing films from the LCD, stick a piece of white paper to the back and wear polarizing glasses.
I remember doing that as a kid with calculator and sunglasses.
The "magic" calculator.
I remember seeing videos on TH-cam about doing that to a computer monitor for maximum privacy. Basically take the polarizing filter and stick it where eyeglass lenses would go. Your monitor will then appear bright white without the glasses (and correct angle)
Sounds like a perfect magical meter for the magical audiophile industry!
Pick up one of those dumpster monitors and steal the polarizer out of it - many of them have a large, loose sheet of polarizer film.
Alternatively, get some GameBoy polarizing film from eBay - you can get loads of it for a few bucks. Or just wear polarized sunglasses!
That was both informative and a repair which is what people like of course.
Years ago I didn't know how zebra strips worked then I looked at one closely and figured it out.
Having Mrs. EEVblog explain the discolouration would be super interesting, along with why some plastics in older gear turns yellow.
Bromine?
Great video. Alibaba and other sell reflective film and sheet polarizer for LCDs. I have seen people mod LCD watch displays with this stuff. You could likely fix the original display with some. Seems pretty cheap.
Perhaps a bright white piece of paper or dual layer paper will reflect even more light than the stock greyish silver and be even more high contrast? Try it :)
In gardening plants they discuss if mylar, white paint or aluminum foil is the best light reflector.
I think pearl white paint on a plastic plate background might look beautiful. And one could make a mold and cast a new pearl white rubber shock protector and you get a iFluke..?
Oh no, what have i done.. started a contest of who has the best modded Fluke? :)
17:35
that is the same one from
EEVblog #84 - High Energy Multimeter Destruction@9:13
Brings a tear to the eye. I've been down that road.
I'll mention that Fluke did change to the clear windows with no model designation, with the designation moving to the LCD surround, but they had retrofit kits for the older meters with a printed LCD surround and clear window. After installing the new surround, one could purchase a new window when necessary. Sadly, Fluke doesn't offer these anymore, but most just re-polish existing windows with good results.
I'll also mention that I've only had to change a handful of zebra strips, but it's important to put them in the way they came out if the contacts are the raised, solder type. These differ in height, and the connector takes a permanent "set" and won't make good contact if placed in a different location or orientation. At least one crazy person has had to try all 8 combinations (as it's obvious which side is toward the LCD0 when he forgot where they went and in what orientation.
As an alternative to replacing the squished zebra strip, maybe add a bit of solder to the PCB pads (which look like they're already covered with a layer of solder, HASL finish). The addition of a thin layer of solder would change the topography to deal with the "set" and the added thickness would slightly compress the strip, mayb resulting in an improved contact.
I was in component level repair with Telstra 20 years. We had this prob with our Flukes. Fluke said it is because these are not Tropical Displays, which we need in Australia. They supplied us with replacement displays. Regards Norm in Sydney......
You'd need to bodge in some contacts for the rotary switch, probably. As well as populating the missing parts.
I drove over my 70 series with the car, I even thought to myself; don't leave it there you'll drive over it.
It still worked but the display was cracked, so I phoned Fluke for parts, they said "...and it still works? Can we have it for our display?"
"No you can't! Sorry."
They sold me a new display.
Getting a new display for and old series 10 was more difficult.
You can just put 1 or 2 piece of white paper as backing, it will look better
That was my thinking too.
I think itd be kinda neat to print custom designs on the paper. Itd be like wallpapers. Practical no, but pretty neat
Foul works but it aren't just the lack of polarizer, but the layer thickness/flatness to the LCD screen.
So cool seeing stuff I work on being shown on youtube lol.
Id love to see a repair of the other one !
fluked it !
Those outlined digits would look cool on a watch.
Bringing back nightmares with zebra strips, when I used to take apart my LCD watches in the 80s when I was really young, and had to hide the inevitable broken segments from my parents!
I learned something about zebra strips today!
Just an asside, you were missing some segments because of degraded elastomeric strips. They sell replacement strips for about $20, However, I’ve fixed two Fluke displays recently by simply cleaning the edges with isopropyl alcohol. Anyway, great video as always!
I dare say some aluminium tape or something would work with some double sided tape and a replacement polarizer off a donor or ebay
I still use a SOAR 5430 as my standard bench multimeter, they were great.
I have had to add an extra layer of rubber (black electrical tape) to the LCD in some cases to get to conductive rubber strips to make good connections to the LCD in past years.
don't forget the rare red LCD!
9:22 thats epic! id say, cool idea to make it look cool, lol
tin foil adds cool look!
Forgot to comment on the first video, but great comment as always Dave. Love DMM videos. Addendum: I appreciate the part number on the LCD starts with JF
Parts pile to the rescue!
I have a mint Fluke 75 and its a completely different beast. Excellent quality
Gotta say that outline look is pretty cool. Not very functional, but still cool none-the-less!
You can get replacement polarizing film and you just have to figure out what angle to cut the rectangle out and it works great..
The silver coating oxidized. Its like a mirror. I have never found a perfect replacement for it online.
The one and only time I ever removed an LCD, I could never get all the contacts to contact again when I tried to put it back together. It never worked properly again :-(
-Matt
I had to hack in a modern lcd in a fluke 8010A couldn't get hold of any replacements
This unit is a venerable Fluke 23 series 1. I own a Fluke 21 series II and is perfectly operational
Looks like simple oxidation. I see the same thing with old glass negatives I work with at the library. After a few decades even the best seal will still allow enough oxygen to enter to start the process.
If the resistor is open how could you have burned yourself on it? It would not have produced any heat as it is open therefore no current should have been passing.
Going to guess the analogue front end has shorted a power rail to the input, and the shorted MOV is allowing the input to be hard connected to ground, thus the low value resistor there is passing 9V to ground, and heating up. Likely the resistor was just some random one, or got the snot blown out of it, so it shorted out from burn debris to around 100R.
now I dunno if I still have em but I had a box of a half dozen parts of these:P(military throw away material)
19:18 If you look closely, you can see that the “new” LCD’s backing is starting to oxidize, too.
Bet that holster will fit too.
Hi Dave love the repair videos would like to see if you could populate the series 2 and get it working as like the other one think that would make and interesting video
Looking through all your videos on soldering stations and I don’t see any on induction stations like the hakko FX-100 or the metcal MX. would love to see you do a video on that technology
could try reflective paint or tape, the types used to reflect at night
Since we're discussing our first digital multimeters and with the recent passing of Sir Clive, it reminded me that my first digital multimeter was an LED Sinclair multimeter.. I think I still have it somewhere in a box in my own bunker...
I got two of them out of my other box of multimeters!
The failure of the reflective is probably similar to the failure that bullet proof glass has after years. Bullet proof glass(at least the old stuff) becomes cloudy and loses its transparency. Has to do with the adhesives used to laminate the glass.
Use silver spray paint on the back of the LCD
This is exactly what we used to to back in the late 80's. Taped off the edges, and sprayed them with a few coats of aluminum paint Polarizing film on the front. These were for outdoor instruments, so we would glue ceramic heaters on the back so the display worked in the cold
Where did you buy the yellow plastic screwdriver/lever things ? And what are they called?
The DMM was left in direct sunlight for an extended period of time, and actually got "cooked" by the UV rays of the sun. Very common failure. Fred
It's happens because the glue not UV resistant between the silver mirror tape and the LCD glass... Just UV tolerant until them reached limits...
Durring a lifetime normal use, indoor a lab or workshop get nothing, but durring outdoor using also get just some exposure... But if you leave one or more days long on a direct summer sunlight... Yeah... It's like 20y long normal everydays exposure for it, what is definitely abnormal :)
Same things happened with oldschool handy tetris games, gameboys, or just a digital nightstand clocks what directly got the mornin' light :)
Also the UV light cause heat, heat generates not just oxidation but chemical gas as well, and of course the glue getting liquid again and deforming the homogeneity of layer thickness and casue these "fancy" effect....
LCD issues aside, that 23 still seems like a sick puppy, display jumping around between negative ohms and "OL". Was it really that sensitive to touch? I'm working on a similar vintage 77 that's acting the same way... really jumpy and flakey even after fixing the 1k fusible resistor. I'll look at replacing some of the caps next.
You totally missed an opportunity here. Getting a new background polarizer on and coating the backside with a mixture of luminous and neon pigments wold have been the first stage of upgrade techporn and could have ended in engineers drool by 3D printing a new stand to fit an extra tritium light with a cadmium sheet as back reflector behind the upgraded LCD :P Making things better than they were before isn't just a sport it's a way of life. We're a lot of Tim Taylors out here ;)
Looks like oxidation of the reflective backing.
1/4W and so hot seems a lot of current is flowing when it's on . The probable cause of failure of the original resistor is somewhere else and its worrying
Try it with white paper 👍
Your age is showing there, Dave!
You don't need to replace the back of the meter to fix the stripped screws, you need to replace the front case, as that is where the threaded part is...
Was thinking the same.
D'oh
The light hitting the glass at an angle slightly polarizes it, that's why it works better there.
I saw a story about a guy who removes the LCD panels from pregnancy tests. Then he makes tiny video games. He plays Doom on a pregnancy test. So you could use one of those panels for this repair, you’ll just have to squint a little.
I have an old electronic unit with such type of lcd and it became full blackened in some spots from exposure to the sun in years; can anyone recommend specific materials to fix it?
You need to clean the adhesive off the back of the lcd
A golden opportunity missed to fix it with a piece of bubble gum wrap instead of aluminum foil. More reflective, fewer creases. Would have given new meaning to the expression "fixed with gum and baling wire!" I'd have also fixed the cracked bezel with a bit of black CA glue just because I'm OCD that way.
I had a problem with the display of a chinesium meter. It's reflector oxidized and I stripped off the whole lot of films from the screen. Now the unit is operational again, but it's LCD suffers from the Salazar's Curse
Hello David, Great videos! I am particularly interested as I too have a Fluke 73. It picked a fight with the concrete floor but the floor won, so the casing is in pieces. If you have no further use of the Fluke 77 casing, would you be interested in selling it? BTW, how do you send PM with TH-cam? Haha, have a great day.
i dont thing there is the space is there, im curious about modding a backlight into it???
I have a sorta sad story regarding the Fluke 89 that served me well for over a decade, right though two engineering degrees as well.
I made the silly mistake of sending it back to Fluke Singapore to replace the dying LCD and they wrote back saying since the unit it no longer produced they would let me buy a replacement. The cost to DHL it back was almost half the cost of a new one so they disposed of it. Blimey! Never do that, be wiser and fix it yourself. I would never have sent it if I knew this would happen. Bummer!
It's kind of them to allow you to buy a replacement meter
@@Soapy555 right? Haha!
@@Soapy555 their phrasing in their email was exactly that. They’ll “let me”. Sheesh!
@@bsodmike Yeah, I assumed that's probably how they worded it
RIP Fluke 89 - you will be sorely missed
Even if that '70 isn't fixable, it might be interesting to try swapping the ASICs to see if those still work. Could be worth a pretty penny, since they're made of pure unobtainium.
It does look like "water ingress" from the shape and distribution of the discoloring. I don't think that it's related to sunlight as such; if so, it would be more uniform. Maybe UV makes the process faster or more pronounced, but it clearly is "eating into" the display from the edges in, so something in the air (gas or moisture) or direct exposure to water is my bet. 🤔
likely oxidation, or if its silver based, sulphur. it diffuses usually through the glue
Aluminium sputtered foil on polyester sheet, the uncut edges slowly diffuse oxygen through, and create the ring of oxide as it slowly diffuses through from the cut edge.
Алуминиево фолио за въздушни системи, въздуховоди.
Whenever I tried to reassamble a LCD with these zebrastrips, I always miss some segment. I tried this on many screens over the years and still not one works perfect after disassamble.
So I kinda hate 'em :P
Entirely possible the structure of the LCD itself and the crystaline structure is acting like a freznel lens, and causing the silverised coating to oxidise. If I was to have a guess.
The burn pattern suggests such, you might be correct, or maybe it was Oxygen leaking in. Awesome assessment Data!
.... Elastomeric, is the Elephant man's sister !
Looks like it may have spent a lot of time in a corrosive atmosphere, like maybe at a sewage treatment plant or around sulfuric lead acid batteries.
Could you make the 70 also working?
Oh! it is a winner.
How about a think, actual mirror cut with diamond tip?
I had an LCD go bad in a Fluke 8050A-01... sad to see it slowly fade, and bleed. Naturally, Fluke had no spares, and the otherwise perfectly operating meter with dB math and battery option became junk.
I think you can replace the LCD with an LED display, if I remember correctly. There was some information about this on the internet somewhere. Damn, now that I think about it...where is my Fluke 8050. Haven't seen it since I moved! Grr!
Oxidation
Al-foil has a shinny side, but I would go for a chip packet inner foil.
Its aluminum oxidation on aluminum foil tape from oxygen getting in between
There has to be a modern backlight that would fit it. Something like what they put in old gameboys
It was caused probably by soldering fumes.
The aluminium foil looks like aluminum foil to me! The good German aluminium foil is flat without any embossings.
The cheap British stuff also...
white paper would work behind the lcd, i feel like iv used a business card before i cant remember what it was on tho
Sir I could use the front case and knob assembly if ur willing to part with it
13:39 Is your cousin BigClive? He is into that pinball stuff.