DeadLock: The Last of Us vs. Pac-Man, Which is MORE Artistic?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2024
- Check me out on Wisecrack! ►► bit.ly/1dUhzfC
VOTE: The Last of Us ► bit.ly/ellieFTW
VOTE: Pacman ► bit.ly/pacmanftw
Can video games be art? It's a question that's been debated for years, but finally we're at a point in time where YES, video games are recognized as an established art form. BUT, that doesn't mean all games are created equally. Take for instance The Last of Us and Pacman, two VERY different games from VERY different generations of gaming. Are they art? Is one more artistic than the other? What makes a game an artistic work? We aim to find out today on DEADLOCK!
Like the music? Check out Carfie! ► ► bit.ly/1L7mFPw
Thanks to my buddy Jared from Wisecrack:
/ thugnotes
Also note that all sides of the debate are RANDOMLY decided, so the debater may be arguing for a side he or she doesn't agree with. We wanted to keep this as neutral and unbiased as possible. NO HATE!
Twitter: @MatPatGT
Facebook: GameTheorists
GAME THEORY MERCH!
Equip it HERE ►► gametheory.spreadshirt.com/
More Deadlock:
SNES vs. Genesis ►► bit.ly/1Lql8Ww
League of Legends vs. DOTA ►► bit.ly/1F4nciC
Pokemon Theories:
Are Humans Pokemon? YES! ►► bit.ly/1Bexblg
Pokemon Evolution EXPLAINED ► bit.ly/1zwIHus
Is Jynx RACIST? ► bit.ly/15tVnoK
Mario Theories:
Can Bullet Bill kill you? ►► bit.ly/1lu41Lo
Mario is a Psychopath! ►►►bit.ly/1nSum0E
Legend of Zelda Theories:
What's in Link's Potions? ► bit.ly/Zj2FsS
Majora's Moon ISN'T a Moon ► bit.ly/1DN6lTa
Which Link is the strongest? ► bit.ly/11pgbvi
FNAF THEORIES:
FNAF2, The Killer REVEALED ► bit.ly/15z6aOW
FNAF1, The TRUE Story ► bit.ly/15tV8da
Scary Theories:
Call of Duty: Death from Space ► bit.ly/1stq1Hs
Mega Man: Death by Robot ► bit.ly/110OaKY
Polybius: The CIA Conspiracy ► bit.ly/1EDrFv2
CoD/Shooter Theories:
Call of Duty: Death from Space ► bit.ly/1stq1Hs
The Warcrimes of Call of Duty ► bit.ly/1twsP5J
What Sex is Team Fortress 2's Pyro ► bit.ly/1xY8yXh
Check out some more of our awesome video game content:
Game Theory: bit.ly/1zz3t7E
Culture Shock: bit.ly/1sw7aZ8
Digressing and Sidequesting: bit.ly/1rxBUgz
Crossover: bit.ly/1t9AclA - เกม
To me this question is like saying "Drawing vs Painting, which is more artistic?" They're both on the same basic canvas, but they're different art styles. The last of us is the art of story telling; through video games. While Pac Man is the art of gameplay. Back in the days of Pac Man, they didn't have room in the cartridge for much more than Pac Man as it currently is.
True! I think both games are just as artistic in their own ways
Same
This wise man will grow to become the person who discovers the meaning of life
darkdudironaji I would argue few early games were art precisely because of technical limitations. I do not think Pong for example can be considered art, though I know some disagree. This doesn't diminish the games in my view, it's just not all games are going for the same thing.
Even today, many games aren't really art and I think that's okay. Some are. Not every game has to be "art" just as not every stroke of the pen or pencil needs to be.
darkdudironaji very much agree on this standpoint. I believe whichever you choose to be more artistic is simply the game you enjoy more.
CoD is just as artistic as Earthbound? Not in a million years.
Call of duty is the most artistic games I've ever seen. The way you sway your gun when you're going to Instaswap, the innovation, the story, the list goes on. This is a game you would want to take out to RedLobster and afterwards, look up at the stars with on the tallest hill. This is a game that will have you on your toes every second you grip your controller and have your eyes locked on your television screen. This is a game that my grand children's grand children's children will be playing and experience the beauty..... Of Call of Duty
Mr.Un4given looks like we have found someone who hasnt played earthbound
Earthbound is a simple RPGs nothing more while call of duty takes the realistic side of things earthbound doesn't even have a well done story in cod you can play with friends but earthbound is really...just Pokemon but with people instead
Ginger Conklin
Earthbound is about growing up in the real world. Confronting the threats of the world, and becoming stronger. Discovering that the world is hard, and life isn't easy. It's about friendship and courage.
Ness is more than just a character, you emphatize with him. He feels homesick sometimes and you have to call Ness' mom so he feels better.
And you say that Earthbound isn't realistic? A girl named Paula gets captured by a cult that wants to "paint everything blue", and what do we see in the news every now and then? ISIS capturing people and destroying places because they want people to be muslims, which is their version of "painting everything blue".
Also, simultaneous multiplayer was very primitive back when Earthbound was launched. That's like if you say some years later that Call of Duty is bad because it's not in Virtual Reality.
So there you go. Earthbound has a complex story (and its sequel, Mother 3/Earthbound 2, has an even more captivating story), it's realistic, and, as ***** said, Pokémon came after Earthbound.
tl;dr
You're wrong.
***** May I remind you that he said nothing about that Pokemon came out before it?
"The mercy of the Internet." -MatPat
Wait, since when does the Internet have mercy?
they both have a COMPLETELY different type of art
when it comes to graphic art and narrative OF COURSE its "The Last of Us"
and when it comes to culture and history its "Pac-Man"
I find this entire debate to be fundamentally flawed by the question itself. The question of which game is more "artistic" is like asking whether a Labrador or a Golden Retriever is more dog! Art doesn't come in levels. Sure, the quality of art could be disputed. But comparing Pac-Man's abstract 8-bit ghost maze of pleasing colors and sounds to The Last of Us's realistic renderings and interesting story is even farther removed than comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing apples to fine china. The two games use completely different styles, have different goals, reasons for exists, historical context, and so on!
Certainly anyone can have an opinion on which game they like more and reasons why. But to say that one isn't art or is less like art than another doesn't even make sense.
+Meg G Exactly what I was thinking. The question is incorrectly presented. There is no way to determine how artistic something is. Same reason that I thought that their arguments jumped all around the place. For instance, Matpat stopped talking about how artistic Pacman was and instead began proving how iconic it was and the relevance it has in history. That was probably because you can't argue over something that inevitably comes down to personal preference or completely separates from the question at hand.
I've never understood why people use the phrase "like comparing apples to oranges" I mean they're both fruit aren't they? I prefer comparing things that are totally different, like giraffes and crystal meth
+Zach Cate Why compare them when they are both part of an equation unicorn+crystalmeth=giraffe thus a giraffe is just a really high unicorn with 2 horns instead of 1
+Meg G Bronies are lesser than furries
They meant which one was more effective to the player
"I leave you to the mercy of the internet."
...soooo you leave him to die buried in flames?
It leaves him to be pushed into Blight Town from DS1
Michael Reuter That's even worse, you just threw in lag. Even hell doesn't have lag.
Michael Reuter
Lag and ladders...
Never forget the hero's who ventured through.
There is no way to describe what the internet will do to him with a sentence I can only describe it in words that have a synonym to bad
Hell can have lag, only if you use a blackberry though. Everyone else has ethernet or HSIC
Jared: What feelings does pac-man evoke?
Me: Actually for me pac-man is kind of like meditation.
Alexander Rodriguez y Gibson Mediation isn’t a feeling, it’s an action, calm is a state and your parents basement is not your home it’s representative of the one thing your good at, mooching. (Google it if your Cheeto poisoned brain doesn’t know)
PS the last of us is better PAC-MAN was just first.
Ethan he didn’t say meditation was a feeling he said pac man makes you feel what meditation feels. To be honest I found more enjoyment playing pac man than I did the last of us
Pac-Man World is the best series
In my opinion, the lack of player choice is one of the things that makes The Last of Us so amazing. The game isn't about the player, it is about it's characters and their emotions, and the game does an incredible job at making you feel those same emotions.
Might as well be a movie then.
Quad Maxx I think you connect with the characters more through gameplay than cutscenes to be honest. Also, not every game has to put the player in the front-seat. I still think it would be a good movie though, just not as good as the game.
Larchcone Chill out, it was a joke. I have no opinions on the game because I've never played it. Although, I am sick of PS fanboys shoving it down my throat.
I'm totally chill mate
Quad Maxx i hate that to
10:53 Ludo-CRIS!!!!!
This was funny.
LAST OF US AND BTW you should do a game theory about fallout since there is a new game this year
Last of us is the better work of art to me it is
Wow mat pat wow *slow clap* is that what you wanted
LAST OF US THE BEST
Art is supposed to leave a lasting impact on you. A lasting emotional impact on you. Art is supposed to make you think after you're done viewing it. And while Pac-Man can make you excited, angry, frustrated, or happy, once you are done playing, those feelings disappear very quickly and you forget about it. It doesn't have a lasting impact. But with TLoU, for a lot of people, it does. After finishing the game, for most people it leaves a mental and emotional impact that stay for a while. It get's the player thinking and has a lasting impact on them, If the game is mentioned, it reminds them of the thoughts and feelings they had when they were playing the game, and for some it may even get them thinking again about those thoughts and feelings they had. If someone mentioned Pac-Man, I guarantee that the thought people will have will either be "Oh yeah, Pac-Man" and that would be it, because while Pac-Man is a fun game, that's all it is and doesn't evoke much of an emotional response, or it would be "Ugh, Pac-Man", because for some they are annoyed at seeing Pac-man in everything. So, to me TLoU is truly art because it got me thinking and feeling long after I finished it, while Pac-Man is nothing more than an enjoyable few minutes of time wasting
Michael Brandes I dunno about you but I still remember all those times I was cornered by two ghosts with no means to protect myself. Still to this day I wake up in the middle of the night and shout "Damn you ghosts! Damn you!"
Michael Brandes who the fuck told you that you have the authority to say what makes one person or another have something to chew on after they view it?
I whole heartedly agree with you.
Michael Brandes I agree 100%. I wish I could wipe my memory clean of TLOU just so I can replay it and feel everything all over again. I can only rectify that feeling by going in for another play through. TLOU definitely leaves a specific impact that only really special games have the power of doing.
Tyler Jopek So you're saying you think there's something deep and/or emotional for people to chew on when it comes to Pac-Man?
I have always felt more emotion in The Last of Us then in pac man and I feel art has more to do with emotions rather than history.
I feel more emotion in Pac-Man in Hello Pac-Man/Pac-Man 2 The New Adventures than I do an average human character.
This is just my choice.
Pac-Man is great, the legend of gaming, but the last of us has better "art"
True, when I play the last of us, I feel like I'm personally involved
Same here BUT UNCHARTED TOPS IT ALL
The Last of Us looks like a Hollywood movie I would never go to see. Yawwwwwnnn!
Define art? Obviously the game looks more realistic and at least in my opinion beautiful but Pac-Man looks satisfying and the concept is creative and it came first. Last of us is obviously the better game but I’ve just saying when you are asking about “art.”
Who's he is playing The Last of Us Last of Us better by the way
Both sides of this argument are flawed because you did not define art thus making it impossible to argue over what is superior art.
Epicvampire800 *cough* 3:13
Epicvampire800 Your argument is invalid
because video game logic.
also they did.
If you think about it art is really anything that one can reflect on their lives about and relate to, even dog shit. The appearance, its origin, all that is found in anything and one can feel empathy through that. I'd say that both of them are art, since in the last of us one can relate to that sense of loss in their own lives, while pacman is rather abstract. I'd say that pacman is the better piece of art though as you can view the ghosts, the pacman, the tension as anything since they're so...abstract, making one be able to feel empathy and picture their lives in that game, while the last of us is fixed, like watching a movie. You get the feelings and empathy but you can't really..image yourself in it, so it makes it harder to relate to it. It would be more impactful if you were in first person in the cut scenes.
Epicvampire800 Thats why the argument was so pointless, art cannot be defined. For example some abstract art looks like a 3 yr old drew it and its worth a lot money, me personally I look at it think "this looks like a 3 yr old drew this" and wouldnt pay 5 dollars for it. Art can mean different things to different people so I personally dont think you can tell the 2 games apart.
Wouldn't pay 5 dollars means you'd either pay less or more than 5 dollars...
Wouldn't even pay 5 dollars is what you use.
Thanks for the great debate, MatPat! Curious to see which will win!
Wisecrack Didn't know Wisecrack was a fan of TGT. You guys make great content, please keep it up!
texaschizophrenic Thank you!
Wisecrack I thought I just saw your face in a video in my subbox... 8-bit bioshock philosophy
In every episode of deadlock, no one wins. It is up to you to decide which one you prefer.
It's always the one with more fanboys unfortunately,lol and dark souls won so far so last of us takes this round.
The last of us vs Pac-Man? Are you joking? Have you seen tlou remastered?!?! That thing is beautiful!
Just my opinion
Rainbow Trout well its not about graphics it's about what is closer to being a form of art
Mario Ramunno I still think tlus wins (in my opinion)
when green met blue Well “artistic” is subjective.
Exactly
All these people saying "pac-man is better" are Xbox and pc players
Dr Fudge Or PS4 I think pacman is better and I'm a all around gamer!
Dr Fudge pfft im a pc god and pacman is stupid and annoying
That's interesting, I was unaware The Last of Us could be played on a mobile device...
You're just a fanboy
Cycler Games I vote Pac-Man and I don’t even play video games
It annoys me greatly that the damage taken isn't the red part of the HP bar... :(
Oh hey, love your videos. :)
Hey Spin793! Thanks man! Hope you caught the new one out today! :D
Halo VS COD! But then again, how would you find anyone older than 12 to back COD...
Come at me. COD fanboys.
COD v HALO sound like a really promising debate and video please consider our comments.
_Magna cum laude,_ COD fanboys.
Wow I'm early let me think of a joke
Halo
Tynanitar both!
Hahahahaha im cod fanboy im 8 and its best game ever hahahhah battlefield
The last of us will always be special to me, but I don't really give a damn about Pacman.
But pacman has a big influence then the last of us. not on you but in world yes
for real tho
How? You say that like you could back it up, but if you actually had to point at what made it special, you couldn't. I'm sure you're only repeating what seems to be a logical thing to say, but these games should never be compared, and the only influence Pac-Man has on TLOU is that it's a game.
pacman is just a big cheese wheel from skyrim
Since he came first, doesn't that mean that the cheese wheels from Skyrim are just Pac Man's??
Joshua Perez yup they are
wake up America
The big cheese wheel from Skyrim is just Pacman
They shouldn't way more than a pound but they do
Shadow of the colossus, can I say that is more artistic ?
john Dorkus idk bruh Cod is much bettre
Alex Garcia the fish or the game. Because the game is terrible.
john Dorkus Others of this ilk in my opinion are Spec Ops: The Line, Terraway, Papers Please, Braid, LA Noire, Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
Yes you can and some people will agree with you
Yep
FNaF: brilliant horror game with a brilliant backstory or a re used game that makes cash quick?
FNAF 1: Pure Art
FNAF 2: Mostly Art, partially Cash cow
FNAF 3: partially Art, mostly cash cow
FNAF 4: pure cash cow
Actually Cam, I feel like FNAF4 was pure art.
FNAF1 was the only one that could be described as "art"
FNAF2 had too many gameplay flaws. FNAF3 was boring to play. FNAF4 is far too repetitive.
***** there is no such thing as "technically art," that's what makes it art
***** sorry for crushing your dreams but the backstory is not fanmade.
backstory in the first game? the newspaper cuts
in the second one? all the death minigames show a lot of backstory
third one is basically about solving the problem that happens in the backstory
fourth one.. it has its own backstory, but i dont know how it actually fits in the new timeline.
and the phone calls in the first three games give little hints too. you dont have to get directly told the whole backstory for it to exist. its like saying just because something's meaning is hidden there is no meaning at all.
also, the fourth game is not like the other games at all? it takes away the cameras and any energy preservation method just to replace it with a more audio-based gameplay. like, man. then every sequel of a game would be like "Hey, I don't even have to put effort into these games! I can release the same game several times in a row and make 30 Million Dollars!!!1!"
matpat you should do undertale vs. earthbound
like if you agree
yes
EARTHBOUND
X
Toby fox modeled his game after Earthbound. Now don't get me wrong: I love everything there is to love about Undertale, but alot of what it has is owed to Earthbound.
They r the same thing my guy
Let me put it this way, what happens when you take the story, music and characters away from Last of Us? How memorable was the gameplay? Now what happens when you take those same things from Super Mario Galaxy.
Pramod Anand A video game can't be art is it's hardly a video game and the gameplay had already been done similarly in the past.
without the characters you wouldnt be able to move
The quality of a piece of artistic expression is entirely subjective. If art is defined as anything without utilitarian purpose, then video games are art. However, the quality of specific pieces is not objective. Both of these games have equal right to call themselves video games and art, and neither is inherently superior based upon their specific qualities, because the merit of those qualities is entirely dependent upon a specific person's biases and opinions. That's my two cents, at least.
Cole Kersting Thank you, philosophical Captain Falcon.
Cole Kersting this guy, correct. bottom line, once its on the wall, it's no longer up to the artist for interpretation and it becomes its own being for anyone to take it in anyway they see fit. this is why anything can be art
Cole Kersting Yeah, but you forget to consider that Deadlock (and anything by Matpat in general) completely ignores things like accepting other viewpoints, considering countering opinions, or the entire existence of subjectivity.
Luke Adelhoch shit, this guy's right, there's yer problem...
Cole Kersting FALCON PHILOSOPHY
I'll have to take the side of Last of Us, games with a high amount of storytelling, and only a small amount of the dissonance allows a game to be more artistic since there's a bigger message that can be drawn.
As a visual artist that works with real people in fictional universes, my drawings are no less "art" than something of originality, as meaning can still be drawn from what is brought to the table. The ability to draw emotion has always been a key part of being considered "art" in the artistic community. In fact, having characters of a human-like stature expressing "human emotion" makes us see things as more artistic in the first place as we too can feel that emotion. Something like Pac-Man doesn't have that emotional connection, so it really shouldn't be considered art.
Ari Zonia Hypothetically, what if someone were to experience emotions while playing Pac-Man? Is it not art to them?
streetough You'd have to personally ask them, but if they felt an emotion from it I would classify it as art in its own way
So it could be considered art (in it's own way) because I'm sure Pac-man means something to somebody out there.
Ari Zonia Here's the thing though, the sensation of victory or defeat; are they not emotions? Rather than look at art in a base form of themes and impressions, try to look at art in terms of sensation. In this sense Pacman is a base and simple form of art, one that is meant to make the gamer feel achievement and loss; whereas Last of Us is meant to emote the themes of its cutscenes and atmosphere: survival, loss, family etc.
So sure, the Last of Us is a more advanced form of art. However with the way video games have progressed it is unfair to compare art made in 1980 to art made in 2013 in terms of their impressions on the player. On the other hand we must look at the more important notion, cultural value. In that sense Pacman is obviously far more important in terms of cultural importance than the Last of Us which, frankly, I would be surprised if anyone remembers is 5 years times.
So while the Last of Us is more sophisticated it is not as important as Pacman in terms of cultural impact.
I agree with you.
in my opinion there are better games out there than the last of us.
Hλlf-Life Pro ............
Hλlf-Life Pro can you name them, please???
half life, gta, fallout new vegas, skyrim, star wars battlefront, zelda, mario, the arkham series. come on.
Hλlf-Life Pro GTA is not better😂
this is a beautiful thing called an opinion. you have yours, and i have mine.
i cant believe this is a question.
***** I'm sorry it offended you sweet pea.
Yeah picasso only dreams of creating art like pac-man
Gay Jesus IKR LOL
Yeah, E.T the Extra-Terrestrial is obviously one of the very best games, not only on the Atari but amazing in the whole gaming industry.
Witch one do you think but pacman is better
(I'm posting this before watching the video) This is like asking which is more artistic between the Mona Lisa and Beethoven's music, or Salvador Dali's Un chien Andalou. They are all art, they all use forms that captivate us in different ways and express feelings, emotions, etc. I couldn't say which is 'more' artistic since I don't think something can be more artistic than something else. I can say which one I prefer, which one is better (in my opinion) but I can't make one less of an art form than another. The same goes to video-games. I definitely do believe that games are art forms and have always been.
Omg there is someon out there that knows what art is.
ComanderScar Yup, but I wouldn't say it's THAT drastic of a difference. More like realistic paintings vs. abstract paintings.
ComanderScar thats what i said
SimplyAtomic yep*
Well said
Rest in Peace Iwata, The President if Nintendo.....
Of*
Ike it's so sad :(
Why Iwata whatever happens we still think you rock
I smell 4chan
Pac-Man is my favorite game of all time
One does not simply fight Mat Pat using research. He will always out research your research even when he does not know what your research is. He has got Wikipedia in his brain.
Idea for the next deadlock: Are E-Sports real sports?
Personally, I don't believe so but a lot of my friends passionately do, saying it's the future of sports. I personally can't comprehend that but I feel like there are some good arguements to be made for both sides. If this somehow reaches MatPat then I would also like to thank you for the work on all of your videos but I'm posting this so long after the video first came out, that I doubt it will.
This could be a good debate to listen to.
Leo Greenleaf I endorse this for a future debate
But I really dont think there is a lot of debate to do... I mean... chess is considered a sport worldwide and the only "muscle" that uses is "the brain"... so just by this definition E-sports are obiously Sports... IMHO
Leo Greenleaf c'mon dude nothing can beat sports anyone who thinks gaming is a sport are people who are terrible at sport. Football Rules
jax Briggs Do you mean like games that use Kinect/PSMove, or games like Fifa or WWE?
no i mean real football
My vote's on Pac-Man, simply for its timelessness and impact.
The Tree's Apprentice Agreed
The Tree's Apprentice Yep, and I'm surprised Pat did not being up the fact that Pac-Man was one of the first video games to have mass market appeal, and tons of Merch which is still produced too this day, and will continued to be produced for years too come.
Well didn't expect you here,but I'll go with pac man.Since pac-man will still live on 30 years from now and last of us is going to be "old and outdated"
Agreed
The Tree's Apprentice How..... nevermind whatever let's you sleep at night.
Everything with a use of creativity is a work of art imo
Choices make something not art? Excuse me, Undertale? A game that has made many people of all ages feel a strong connection with the characters and feel strong emotions?
undertale is art but this a two way argument there are only two options
+Triggered Canadian *cough* neutral run *cough*
A_youngGhost
True Pacifist, Pacifist, Neutral, and Genocide
pokemon go is more artistic than undertale
BDI thanks pepe
I WOULD LIKE TO PRESENT A NEW CHALLENGER TO THE DEBATE!!! I would like to present: "Papers Please," a game where your actions in the gameplay subtly but totally control your story and your outcome. If true art is a form of creative expression to be able to make one find more of themselves through it, then is not a game that had people like me do question their entire moralities after playing it? Nerd cubed stated that it was a game that, after he finished, he was stuck just considering who he was. Not only does it have a powerful story which goes deep and in depth into the player's soul, it doesn't need to resort to graphics for its story. It's a pixel art game for crying out loud! The narrative is entirely told through gameplay, where you have to make decisions between your own tough situations and everyone else's. It makes you question corruption and honor far more than "The Last Of Us" ever did for me, and with only some text and the occasional newspaper for cutscenes. However, unlike the light and abstract "Pac Man," the game has a story and makes you think about your choices beyond simply "Why did I go this way instead of that way? Now it will take longer and I'll get a lower score." In short, "Papers Please" is a piece of perfection which doesn't need graphics to tell it's story, but instead makes you lead the story with your choices and reactions in an incredibly difficult situation. Not only does it have some of the best storytelling I've seen ever, rivaling in quality that of "Tomas Was Alone," the original "Portal," "Silent Hill," and even "Okami," (Just to clarify I'm saying rivaling in quality, all of these games have very different storytelling styles.) but it also has fun gameplay. The gameplay is a Pheonix Wright (another incredible game) style logic based puzzle game which grants you more interaction with the evidence and faster available presentation of contradictions. I have grown to hate the sound of that little machine just off the screen which tells you when something's wrong more than any other sound in gaming history. The sound design is spot on. The gameplay is spot on. An all around perfect game.
Two Words. Mass Effect.
Real Madrid I would agree, but on the other hand, Mass Effect 3....
Matthew H
let's be honest the game's not coming out
well spoken my friend, I agree entirely.
Or 3 as in
Kingdom Hearts
Just want to get my say in this.
I'm totally with Matt on this. Games today get a lot of cred and attention for story and narrative, and I often hear "I love that game, it's like a movie". But those games totally miss the point of gaming. Bringing games closer to movies is going to wash out and ruin games. I'm not saying that games can't be art, or can't have a narrative, but it must be integrated together with the interactivity and choices that is the core of gaming.
Take the GTA games, sure the cutscenes might work well enough for me to invest in the story and the characters, and when a character I care about die I might feel sad. But imagine if that characters death could have been prevented by me? Or maybe I was indirectly responsible for it, now I'm going to care about that death a a whole lot more and the potential of games as an art form is starting to get realized.
I think heavy rain is the game your looking for where you can die as the protagonist but you don't respawn you take over a different charcter for the narrative
Dan Slash I like story driven RPGs where what you do effects the story, but the story is still really strong. Kinda like how the Witcher 3 has different endings. Although D&D is the penicle of ultimate choice and great story(if you have a good DM).
But that was the point. This argument was over whether TLOU or Pacman is a better work of ART not a GAME. Games aren't necessarily works of art. TLOU is a work of art because of it's representation of human emotion, and human expression. There is little room for interpretation and less room for emotional evocation. Basically, a great game is not always a great piece of art.
Dan Slash fuck u david cage!! amaright?
Sometimes cutscenes are better than the gameplay (with new mechanics usually), and it can seem like you're still in control to the player. Playing and watching are closer than you think. That's why some people watch people play games on TH-cam,
The Last of Us, hands down. Pac-Man is gaming mechanics laid bare; there is minimal to no narrative; the game does not explore any human, philosophical, artistic, or social issue beyond the obstacles it presents; and its hallmark status in the gaming world can be attributed to its novelty in an embryonic medium rather than to astronomic brilliance.
The Last of Us is thought provoking; it presents us with complex characters, whose arcs explore the depths and heights of humanity, family, the loss of innocence, hope, death, and redemption. The Last of Us is well-known for its gut-wrenching scenes; a product of excellent acting, script writing, rendering, directing, and character writing; all of which are artistic forms noticeably absent in Pac-Man. The Last of Us uses gaming mechanics to reinforce the narrative; the crafting system and lack of ammunition feed into the desperate and bleak narrative; the important lack of choice in certain scenes is arguably more powerful than giving players choice; see Jared's analysis of Bioshock for another example of lack-of-choice mechanics reinforcing the narrative.
While Pac-Man is without a doubt a classic and well-made game, The Last of Us is far and away more impressive as a work of art thanks to its provocative story and characters, incredible degree of polish, and excellent and creative use of gaming mechanics.
@Rubix Cube you're not even giving any evidence kid😂
@Rubix Cube yes you just give those dumbass emojis when it makes you look pretty stupid
Art is about the feelings and emotions that the artist's puts in his work and how feel those emotions and that's what makes last of Us superior
Most of the hate towards the last of us comes from people who just hate it for no reason, being hyped, isn't a valid reason to hate it.
i_Am_Dementia I personally hate talking about The Last of Us because the majority on either side can't be rational.
i_Am_Dementia No it comes from people who only own a xbox :D
p m Why does it matter of console?
lucas sample because its an exclusive, and people on all sides cry when games on the other team get recognition.
people hate on wii for bayonetta 2, smash and monster hunter
people hate on xbox for gears of war and halo
people hate on playstation for last of us, bloodborne and uncharted
and people hate on pc for steam and decent RTS's
Majora-Jedi I do agree that Joel and Ellie are pretty selfish and cruel, but I do think that might have been the point.
These two games seem incomparable to me :/
Yeah... This episode was really one sided.
Meh I agree but the last of us is the obvious choice, the people voting for pacman are only voting that way because they have nostalgia, not because they actually think it's art
Trolled Chaos I thought so too but I really hated having to kill those doctors at the end, in video games I'm usually a nice a guy
James Darkwood They should have compared it with half life
James Darkwood Same can be said about two pieces of art. I don't see the point
RIP Deadlock
Well, what matpat said about the winter chapter....he said that Elly being a 14yr old girl being able to shoot full grown men or monsters....(somewhere similar). My point being... remember, in the game 'The last of us' the infection has been there for 20yrs, Elly is 14yrs old, she was raised in an environment where the 'Clickers' have been somewhat 'normal' in a Sense for her. So she would somewhat learn at least a little on how to survive, remember, they're survivers.
Doesnt it just depend on what you define "art" to be
***** Exactly. This topic is kinda pointless.
A lot of people are arguing about either
1) which is a better GAME or
2) which is a better ART
when in fact the question simply is, which is art and which isn't? The answer is that they're both art lol
Honestly, they're both art. The Last of Us is the kind of art I prefer, but that doesn't make Pac Man any less of a piece of art. If Picasso is my favorite artist, that doesn't make Kandinsky less of an artist. I feel like people tend to forget that.
Hentai is the true Art ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
***** This is the exact reason that these debates never reach a reasonable conclusion. Art is something that has yet to be given a definition with clear cut (and agreed upon) boundaries. Honestly, I think the real question is whether video games can be art. If so, then both of these examples could fit into the category. In all likelihood, if one game is, the other is too, if one is not, then neither is.
I like the concept of this episode. But there are better candidates (Shadow of the Colossus, for example). That has potential for another episode.
Mitja Kocjancic Thing is the comparison was between really big modern game and old school classic.
I'd say Shadow of the Colossus wasn't technically a big modern game.
LordCowCow Yeah, I get that and I agree. I just wanted to suggest that another episode discussing games as art be made, with Shadow of the Colossus with one of its contenders. Art has loads of potential as a theme in DeadLock.
Mitja Kocjancic The tough thing about SotC is that it would beat any opponent. I think that one easily falls into the "artistic game" camp alongside Journey, Limbo, and others. The nice thing about these two in the debate is that both have their strengths, but also some limitations as far as what type of "art" they would represent.
The original debate was going to be Last of Us vs. Minecraft, but I thought Minecraft would be the easy winner there, which is why we changed it to something more historical and abstract.
The Game Theorists Be glad you didn't choose minecraft the comments section would be filled with swaggot hipsters hating on it because of its success.
Mitja Kocjancic
Oh I see, yeah I can get that. It would be interesting to see two artistic games up against each other, actually...
The last of us, are we ever going to play it, I mean at all?
#PS4exclusive
Care to explain your comment, buddy? I'm assuming you're a PC player (no prejudice there, the PC IS an excellent platform) who's sad to see that it's an exclusive. I've played it before, and I can say, if Sony (which, knowing Sony, they probably won't) ever lets it happen, it should definitely get a good PC port.
Just because alot of people like a thing it doesn't make the thing good. Twilight proved that. So Can we please stop using that argument?
"Good" is subjective, some people think Burgers are the best food, are they wrong? no, but their not right either, its just a opinion
Something can be loved but still be bad. People, for example, often love to commit crimes but it's bad. It's a different type of bad, okay, so another example. Something that tastes bad like rotten eggs. I can guarantee that there are people who like rotten eggs, but no matter their opinion, it's still bad.
+Double Moustache I certainly think there are some objective parameters or standards that can be met or failed to be met, that can make a strong case for good or bad.
Cam Richards
True. But your arguments carries it's own demise. A lot of people think burgers are the best food, true. They think it's good. But it has also been proven that burgers (generally) aren't good for your health. This way it's bad, but the masses still consider it to be good. I believe its the same with movies and TV.
Giraffen Benji svybhrhkg ghhbhvh
Art is subjective. There is no wrong or right answer.
Yeah, I think the question is more like: is one even a game any longer more than it's a movie. It's not that Tlou is a "bad" game, the question is whether it, and other extremely cinematic games, even should be considered games. I think we should reconsider our definitions.
Sangwoo Shin And yet art still has to be measured. When you throw around the words 'nomination', 'oscar', 'masterpiece' -art is given a criteria.
Sangwoo Shin Art is truly subjective, but there definitely seems to be a difference between these games as an art form. For The Last Of Us, it's narrative, meaning and emotion, but Pac-Man is abstract, history, and simplicity. I spent like ten minutes trying to decide which is more artistic to me, but it's all about perspective in the end.
In 20 years people will still know what Pacman was (It's proven to be timeless already), can we say the same for TLOU? I'd say no, and in the end that's what truly matters, a lasting effect.
Lasting effects don't make art, by that standard, nuclear bombs are greater art then the Mona Lisa because they will have changed the world through fear for generations to come while the Mona Lisa was only remembered as long as it still exists (because the most famous art there is are the ones we still have, I mean most people probably couldn't name a art piece that no longer exists)
Destruction198 In the abstract nuclear weapons might be considered art sure, but it was never intended to be interpreted as art while the Mona Lisa was. Now we could argue whether or not these two video games were intended or not to be intepreted as art, but one of these things we've listed is not like the other. Pacman, Nuclear weapons, and the Mona Lisa have all existed for years and years, and still retain an effect on a large portion of people. TLOU is already dying, at this rate it's pretty assured that in 35 years since it's release almost nobody will be talking about it, or playing it. However, with Pacman we already know people are, hence it's lasting effect on art is far more meaningful than TLOU ever will be.
Failcard Just because something lasts doesn't make it art. When something lasts that means it is historic not artistic. In the mona lisa's case it is both artistic and historic. Nuclear bombs are just historic. Pacman is historic and can be argued to be artistic but not more artistic than the last of us.
The only reason people will remember is because Namco will milk it of its money in 20 years not an everlasting effect only the old will remember the original the young kids will remember new pac man games
Zayboy108 You completely misread my argument, I never said TLOU wasn't art, I said Pacman has a bigger effect in terms of art (And everything else really) because of it's longevity. Yes it's fine to consider TLOU art, but that wasn't what the argument was about it was about which one has a bigger effect on making gaming art, the one that's lasted over 35 years is going to have more weight to it than a game that's been out for 2.
When you try to compare TLOU and Pacman by just the actual games themselves, it's too subjective to really come to any actual conclusion, however objectively we can agree that Pacman has had the far larger effect as an artform than TLOU simply because TLOU will likely fade away from memory in 35 years, while Pacman has not.
Objection: While Last of Us has a non-interactive ending ... Pacman ends with a glitch level that is unbeatable. How is that better?
Neither... there just games!
LOL, joking we all know it's Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons of Liberty
Lol good one
Nay I say
I agree with you on that
I believe this should clear things up- Last of Us, no matter how successful or deep the game may really be, is still the same old recycled survival horror zombie experience. And just because the game has some dramatic and disturbing scenes does not mean that we should just jump the conclusion that the game was great just because it made us feel differently on a few occasions. While Pac-man, on the other hand, was the first of it's kind. It being simple does not exclude it from being art, and it does not need controversial or disturbing content in order to gain popularity and noterighty
Dirty Dan notoriety
Dirty Dan Game has almost no gameplay and has everything they teach in "Tearjerking 101". So it's easy for critics who don't understand what games is, but are used to movies to like it.
Like dirty dan said it's simple there may be no story but it still is a great game it may show no emotion but it can still be accounted for as art by many other gamers
Dirty Dan The reason The Last of Us is great is *because* it did incite powerful emotions in the person playing it in a medium full of flops or just generally bad games that could not do the same TLoU used emotions as a tool to make the game better than it already was, not to "show disturbing content in order to gain popularity" games as an art form get better as they are able to incite more powerful emotions in the player. What you are saying is just because a game has the same core aspect of zombie games it is immediately not a good game in its own right any game able to incite powerful emotions in someone despite that person knowing its not real deserves to be respected as a work of art when was the last time a COD game was able to make you feel something because of its story? When was the last time a zombie game was able to do this? Zombie movies can't do this either, if a game can overcome the dead horse that its genre is and give you a great experience nonetheless then it is a great game.
Nemo Nekoi Just because it wasn't the first of it's kind doesn't diminish it's impact or standing. Look at Reservior Dogs. Was it the first heist film? No. Is it one of the best? Yes. Same with Fight Club and Clerks. They weren't the first of their kind but they honed and improved upon what came before it in order to create and overall better end result. Was Alien the first Sci-Fi? Nope. But it's one of the best. Calling Pac-Man art is like calling a paper cup art. Just becuase it's simple, works and someone designed it does not make it art.
To me the answer seems obvious. Pacman isn't art, it's just a game. If historic == art according to matpat, then WW2 was art. Art needs to have meaning, not just "play and get points, but it's a good game so fans will praise it in every way possible".
Not every video game is art, no matter how good it is.
WHY ARE YOU EVERYWHERE?
Adolf Hitler Guess ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Le lenny...
dick butt "If historic == art according to matpat, then WW2 was art. Art needs to have meaning" Are you saying WW2 didn't have meaning?
Anything can have a meaning with a little...imagination. *make a rainbow with my hands*
One thing I wish Matpat said that Pac-Man was revaluationary in its time it broke barriers and I think that is the reason it’s so timeless is because of this even though the last of us is a great game If we are talking about art I may be biased but Pac-Man has my vote
pac man is art it's modern art i think you know what i mean by this
I bet lots of people don't care about the arguments and just choose the game they like more.
The First Sponge Welcome to the internet.
No I would never . . . How did you know
The Turquoise The internet is a scary place man...
The First Sponge Honestly I really didn't feel that Math had any good points in this video at all when comparing these two games. References and other infos a part, I really can't take these videos seriously because as it starts it will always end with no progress in the argument.
1Piecer That makes lots of sense and is definitely understandable. There is a lot they have missed out such as developing and as they did a little of creativity they could have gone deeper. But not only in this video but more. I'd say if they made them longer and dived further into the subject, it wouldn't be that people get nothing out of it. Just a thought. A long one.
49% are on the last of us, 50% are going with both, while 1% are on pac man...
Lol, in all seriousness, I go for pac man. Sure deadlock is pretty good, but in my opinion, it not original. Think about it. How many games do you see with the storyplay design. It's lots of them. With about with the family and the deep feelings you ask. Well how many games do you know has that same exact theme. Pac man is more original, even for their timeline. I don't know, just my opinion.( if you haven't realized, im not very good at debating, but I guess it was worth the shot :p)
Now you my friend have some intelligence, the Halo 3 and 4 have the same kind of plot, about protecting you and a companion.
Yay someone actually agreed with me! (I'm really bad at debating and always have a flaw in my reasoning)
ericka jones Just to let you know, the game isn't called "Deadlock: The Last Of Us". The game is just called "The Last Of Us" and the TH-cam series is called "Deadlock".
Lol, didn't know that. Luckily, I didn't tell anyone else because they would have been so confused
Pac man? Seriously? A bunch of commands and images? I could probably make a pacman game these days. This debate shouldn't even exist since pacman is pure bullshit. I mean sure we played it when we were kids but now we've got the big guns and that's pretty much trash
6:00 The middle DOES matter actually! Too bad Jared did not come back on that one. The middle connects the beginning with the end, it is the gameplay that connects the both. You play and your price is the plot progression. I was very happy in every game after each level to get more story cutscenes. Without the middle you can't understand the end, best example: "The Last of Us"
Bazinga!
We all know Hotel Mario is art
Bro, Hotel mario isn't one of the choices, but yes it does hav art
Daniels channel www.dictionary.com/browse/joke
So true
This argument is flawed in the first place because art is just art. There is no real better or worse, just more or less preferred; its like trying to argue about what style of music is better.
Once you agree that both games are art, then you can't say one is better than the other, just that you like one more than the other. For example: one person might like a Riphael more than a DaVinci, it doesn't mean it's better than the DaVinci.
ChadaMonkey Art has many aspects, so you could say that one is better than the other in certain aspects, but is beat in others.
The Only Domo
Interesting concept, can you give me an example?
A good example would probably be how The Last of Us can make us cry or feel emotional, while Pac-Man is a staple in gaming history, which makes a historical art piece.
The Only Domo Isn't it weird how back then they would've never thought that Pac-Man or any video game would come close to art yet now we view it as a piece of art
Organist Agreed.
I love that this channel is experimenting with new ideas and video series, but I miss the weekly theories. It would be amazing if we could get weekly theories and deadlocks
robbie rob They're still coming out :) Maybe your sub box just isn't seeing them? Check the channel page -- there were three new ones in June and four in May!
The Game Theorists I think the sub box is just glicthed since they changed it but It doesn't show a new vid for 2 hour's.
Oh wow ur right. Damn youtube sub box >:(
The Game Theorists These deadlocks are amazing!
robbie rob manhunt??=?=!=!=!!!!1
3:55 That was on display when I went to the Vancouver Art Gallery with my class. Looks like somebody broke the 'no pictures' rule...
In case anyone is curious why there is a urinal at the MOMA
on display, it like most things means nothing outside of its context.
The "Fountain", as the urinal is called, isn't really about (as I
understand it) if the form or construction of the object itself can be
considered art. But that it calls into question what "Art" is to
begin with. If you look at art history you'll see that is really the only theme
that is occurring/recurring. If you take a cursory glance at art history you'll
notice it’s broken down into chunks or movements. And as each movement seems to
be a reactionary movement against what came before, you can see how
evolved/devolved (depends on your opinion) to be where a urinal can be put on a
literal pedestal to be showcased as art.
Ultimately I think it's about trying to discover what art is and how far it can
be taken. Outside of tradition & longevity, there really is no reason that
a painting is considered definitively art and (to bring it all back) video games
as not art. They both are. And both have their respective tropes.
So when you next find yourself in an art museum and are
confused as to how anything you see is “art” just think of it like an “inside
joke” that the art community has. And after decades of building on that “joke”
has made it virtually impossible for anyone to get, without looking into all
the previous iterations. So hopefully my years of art school have helped you
now more than it has helped me.
Great episode guys! Keep up the good work!
I feel a lot of people watching this video will vote Pac-Man for a few reasons. I feel people don't know how to judge a debate and they will vote for Pac-Man because they like Matpat, they like Pac-Man more, they never played The Last of Us, or they hate The Last of Us. I vote for The Last of Us because i feel Jared had the better argument, which is the proper way to vote on a debate. That's my little rant, thanks for reading.
Bravo Bravo I agree
Youre right
The last of us is better
Brandon Spencer 8 bit vs HD. Pure Gaming vs Cut Scenes. Action/Puzzle vs Action/Adventure. Both are equally qualified to be called art, or not called art. In the end, you don't and can't have a definitive title for them. But if you could...
...both would be disqualified off the bat.
I used to be like that with games I don't play(Dota, LoL) and voted for Matpat. I actually played both games and yeah, MatPat's argument is waaaaaaay weaker.
Brandon Spencer nope people will chose TLoU because most of the people watching this are 13 yr olds that never played anything older than PS3
You can't compare these two games, because they are both totally different pieces of art.
Good point, but what type do you like better?
You have the best answer so far.
peppiping That's why it's a tie. Because once again, this topic is very subjective, just like the other deadlocks with no facts or whatsoever.
peppiping Aw, CARLOS!
karlsanada13 its not a debate about facts. If either of them had chose a game they know they would get hate for it hence then name of the show Deadlock like a stalemate. Its all fan base debates, and who favors what.
Matpats point of Ellie being a 14 year old girl and killing tons of guys and a great point because In the DLC it talks about how she trained with military
A 14 year old trained with the military.... First of all, WAIT WHAT? Second of all, she just shouldn't be that physically capable to begin with, given all the recoil and the pressure of the situation. Also, wouldn't a mob of grown men eventually find SOME sort of way to outsmart her?
micheal hoffstater I don't see how a yellow blob is feeting himself whit white dots over and over again for some how does he even digeste all? that plus the weird interaction of creepy ghosts are fallowing thus guy for no reason
jef f Yeah, but Pac-Man doesn't have to worry about making sense or maintaining suspension of disbelief for immersion purposes because it isn't a narrative-driven experience.
Did you know that Pac man was accualy called Puk Man when it was brought over seas, it was changed because some random person though that Puk sounded like a bad word
The Last of Us was more of a movie than a game. I don't care if you see it as art or not, and I can see why, but as a gamer I can't see it more than an interactive movie with shitty stealth, predictable story, and LADDERS EVERYWHERE. If you like it, go for it, I can see why, but I can't think of it as a game in the traditional sense.
Exactly. In the traditional sense. Games are evolving and obviously aren't going to be traditional anymore.
I'm an avid movie fan, and I just don't know how I feel about the two mediums being blurred together. Gameplay makes the game, and story comes second. who knows, maybe games will evolve into more like The Last of Us (hopefully better executed), and maybe it will be better than what we expect. Until then, I'll remain skeptical, but I'll respect not only your opinion, but also respect the games that dare to tread new ground and pave the way for new experiments in the gaming industry, because innovation leads to excitement.
VForceWave Agreed, I don't think it can be called the best video game of all time, when the game itself dosen't have that much ''game'' in it. :P
Saztog Gaming And how does it not have much 'game' in it?
matt4045 It's meant to be more of a story-based experience than a fun game, which is fine I can see how people like it. It's much like Journey in that aspect. But I don't like Journey and I don't like this game that much. It just never engaged me.
Do a deadlock on the biggest rpg rivalry to this day Chrono Trigger vs Final Fantasy 6
Or do it on FF6 vs. FF7, also a massive debate going on.
Bilaal Khan Chrono Trigger imo.
Bilaal Khan or old rpgs like the first final fantasy s vs new ones like xenoblade
Bilaal Khan Except we ALL know deep down FF6 would win.
Rogun987 sephiroth vs kefka who's the better final fantasy villain (Kefka imo)
Without Pac-man and the other original games we wouldn't have video games. The original games inspired people to make games. And the newer games inspired more people and so on. Pac-man is a legend in video game history. Pac-Man is the reason you have GTA, COD, Overwatch, and many other games.
It's close but I think PAC man wins the maze is artistic and mat was right cutscenes don't make the game necessarily art it's not the game and if you listen to Beethoven while reading a phone book it doesn't make a phone book art
i agree, but you literally just repeated what matpat said lol
Except the cutscenes and the music are an actual part of the game. Listening to Beethoven while reading the phone book doesn't make the phone book a part of Beethoven's music.
9:40 Seriously?! That fucking takes 20 damage!!! Wow, you guys are so good at doing damage evenly... All you wanna do is waste time doing random numbers just to get to 1% left, that's what happens every DeadLock.
Edit: Guys, I understand that it has to always be at 1% so we decide, but they could have at least made the damage make sense! I mean, when they're basically doing all like 1-8 damage every time, it messes with my brain that just because he didn't have enough/good enough points, they all of a sudden, just to make it 1%, do 20 damage! If you're gonna do it that way, may as well make that person do like at least 8 damage each time, not just, BOOM, I SAID SOMETHING NOW U DEADLOCK!
Alexis Alexander Problem? The solution's simple; DON'T FUCKING WATCH IT. Clearly you've seen a few Deadlocks; you KNOW what you're in for. Stop watching them.
LordofFullmetal But I like Deadlock
Alexis Alexander
Doesn't SOUND like it. If you like it, quit bitching about it.
LordofFullmetal Lol, y u hef to be med
Alexis Alexander
For the same reason you can't seem to use real words.
Anyway, I have better things to do than engage with you.
I vote dark souls, trumps them both to be honest.explores so many themes, and youre in all of it
saedt Dark Souls #1
I agree
saedt Can you see which side won? And if yes then where?
saedt yea but that wasn't an option
I agree the game purposely leaves gaps in the lore for the imagination of the player to fill in and interprete as well as creating a whole sub community through channels like vattividya
I honestly think that both games have an artistic style in their own way
0:36 AT THE TOP LEFT CORNER IS THAT SYCKOH
Dark Souls rocks! Praise the sun for Dark Souls 3!
Hope dark souls 3 will actually be a difficult dark souls game for once
Screw the Sun! Hail The Dark Lord for he shall bring about the age of man!
pac man
+Cody Lamb indeed because both are diffrent
THE SUN PRAISING IS HITTING HARD
You know what's art? Journey. 'Nough said
Journey is art. That's a fact.
The Shadow Force Journey is art, because I consider all video games art. But though I haven't played it, from what I've seen it looks horribly pretentious and overpriced.
Larry Psuedonym I would disagree. Play it before you judge it. Overpriced maybe, but Journey has a combination of beautiful atmosphere and presentation with a unique gameplay twist: the innovative multiplayer. The way it works is that throughout the game you will randomly encounter other players. No voice chat, no gamertag, anonymous strangers who happen to meet along the way. This lack of communication creates a stronger bond through gameplay, as the two of you must help each other in order to solve the various puzzles and finish the game. Its now available on PS4, so give it a try!
The Shadow Force I just posted a comment similar to this then scrolled down to find your comment =u=
The Shadow Force t, the band is good too... RIGHT!?
It's like comparing water pistol to desert eagle, but water pistol shouldn't even be loaded.
This fight actually swayed my vote! Thanks for this fight Game Theory! Dead Lock is awesome, a great idea.
I say a tie since all games are art.
Well...
***** I can actually support that. The last supper was an unfinished mural by Leonardo. He only painted half the wall, but constantly lost interest and went off to draw people in the plaza instead. I assume it's because the idea belonged to the patron, Leonardo has also been known for leaving some works unfinished if he finds it boring, which in this case it was. Plus the patrons who hired him treated the mural as half finished crap by installing a door that cuts through the mural. Therefore Bubsy 3D > Last supper because at least the creator sought through to see it finished.
erin collins Video games are an artistic medium, but not all video games are art, just like not all paintings can be called "art". For example, a 5 year old's drawing may hold sentimental value to their parents, but that doesn't make it art, and Superman 64 isn't art because, well do I really need to go on?
erin collins i trust you!(dont get me wrong),people like something and say "You are stupid/wrong/etc".for TONS OF REASONS.But every gamer shall make a desicion, and say,"that game tha i say it suck,is a good game for other guy."
ALL GAMES ARE ART, BUT ONLY SOME ARE FOR YOU,SOME OTHER FOR ME.That what Erin comment explains "all games are art,but some people like one or other but not this/that game, at the end,every game has it's own fan.
Read the title, it says which is MORE artistic.
In terms of overall quality, style, narrative, and mechanics, "The Last of Us" is the clear winner.
But a more nuanced look would have to take into account the times that each game was created. Before PacMan, video games lacked much of an identity within the art world. Many of the mechanics that we take for granted in modern games didn't exist at that time, making PacMan a pioneer into a new realm altogether. The artistic leaps and bounds made in PacMan easily rival if not outright surpass the achievements made in "The Last of Us".
It is similar to comparing cave hieroglyphics to an image made in Photoshop. One is clearly more advanced but it can be argued that the hierogyphics were more original and therefore more artistic.
Mr. Stonefallow Quality, style and mechanics - hell no. Pacman wins in all of those departments. Narrative - sure. It's easy to have more narrative than a game that doesn't even have a story.
Nemo Nekoi PacMan is an 8-bit circle that eats dots, The Last of Us is a stunning lifelike cgi achievement. If they were both made in the same year, there would be no comparison to the visual quality.
Style is a bit more subjective, but once again, it's an 8 bit circle eating dots. "The Last of Us" created an entire apocalyptic world with unique characters and themes. Mechanics wise, Pac Man has 4 options. (Left, Up, Right, and Down) while "The Last of Us" has a variety of mechanics and options throughout the game.
Ermagerd, an actual argument based on reasoning, instead of getting an opinionated scream-fest crammed down my throat. Pls stay around longer friend
Mr. Stonefallow Those nuances you mention were the main grounds for dispute in the video, methinks. Pac-man was a revolution in its time and, like MatPat said, is a pure ludic experience. It doesn't have stunning graphics or a complex narrative, but it perfectly represents what "video-game" means.
The Last of Us, on the other hand, excels at telling a compelling story with beautiful immersion while still maintaining a game's characteristic interactivity. So I guess the question is: which bar should we set? The pure definition of a video-game or a well-blended mix of important elements?
Mr. Stonefallow Pacman is a pixely yellow "circle" in the times where this was an achievement, LoU is an attempt at the realistic graphics that falls in the uncanny valley (in the times when average PC can render a lot better "realistical" graphics, mind you). Pacman has style, i'll not even make argument here, LoU's style is "gritty pseudo-realism, like every other game what tries to make player *feel*" (yes, this all is the name of a "style"). Mechanics... You don't even understand that game mechanics mean.
I want to one day hear 8-bit moonlight sonata movement 3 as the background music of these debates
Are you kidding me? It’s like a fight between an old man and jotaro, of course jotaro being the last of us
It should've been The Last of Us vs Mass Effect
***** I think you two missed the point of the video. The point was to compare two completely different games - one that uses mechanics to invoke a response in the player and another that uses narrative to invoke a response in the player.
StillGotShit4Brains But that would have completely defeated the point. In a way they're not talking about which SPECIFIC game is greater, they're talking about which ASPECTS of a game lend itself to being more artistic. So debating over two 'similar' games would've gotten us nowhere.
StillGotShit4Brains But The Last of Us had a brilliant ending....
Art is subjective. There is no "more artistic" game.
Uhhhh actually the question is which is more artistic so there has to be one soooooooooo.....
Luke Bob The question is based off a flawed premise.
BoisegangGaming glad i'm not the only one who gets this
Luke Bob no hes right
BoisegangGaming The question should be is pacman art or how do define art or to make it more into a discussion are video games art
Pac-Man isn't art, it's a relic of antique art.
While the last of us is art, Pac-man is a 100% antique, BETTER art.
I think they're both works of art, however, I would say Pacman is more universal and will probably have greater longevity. The Last of Us will always be relevant to post industrial societies in fear of collapse, but could become irrelevant after the advent of AI or something. Idk. Pacman is boring in comparison though. The Last of Us makes you feel a broader range of emotions, as well as intensity. Pacman has the whole "awwfuck I died!" feeling and "yes, I won!", but that's it. However, I would like to see more complex abstract games.
I think that 5% of the vote will go to pack man from the people who just hate TLOU for no reason:'( I personally enjoy both of them and it's hard to decide but I'm going to have to go with the last of us
Feral Naruko If you believe the art of The Last of Us is only in the cut scenes, you are missing a lot. The game informs the player through not only cut scenes, but also game play, level design, and player choice/decision.
Idk for me tlou is just a game, but pacman is a timeless work of art. Just like the Mona liza, it isn't actually that good but is so inbeded in our culture that no one would question it as art. Tlou maybe on of the best game for now, but in the next couple of years, we're going to have tons of games much better than it.
Crash, that being said, over 15% of tlou votes are gonna be from people who didnt experience Pac man growing up.
Who hasn't played Pacman?!
Crash5445 The problem with The Last of Us is that it doesn't, at all, embrace that its a video game. The "art" and the parts of the game that people praise, are the story, the music, the characters.
Well. The gameplay of the Last of Us is actually pretty bad, and definitely not something to write home about. If you can even bring gameplay, the core aspect of video games, into the question of Art, Pacman is a clear winner.
The problem with the Last of Us is that really, its just one of the first games to deliver an actually good story to a videogame. The story itself, as a standalone, is nothing special. I've read far more interesting and touching books, and seen better movies.
It's not that The Last of Us is very good, it's that there isn't much competition. Art in video games is many things, but no The Last of Us, a overhyped game that would be better represented in other medias.
Why are you two debating the meaning of "art?" You can't do that, it's impossible. Something's artistic value is purely subjective and therefore cannot be confined to a single value or a small range of values. This is just like hearing Deidara and Sasori arguing. "Something's artistic value is defined by how much it impacts the audience in the moment," "No, true art is a moment preserved through eternity and is not confined to a single instance." The argument always starts with no ground and always goes absolutely nowhere.
Sleepteiner You can debate the meaning of art. The point of it is to try to get people to think more. I think that's a worthy goal. Kudos to MatPat for trying to get people to use their freaking brains.
Sure, you can debate the point of art existing and why people create art. But, you can't debate which piece of art is more artistic from a definite point of view when both pieces were created to just be art. MatPat made some very good points on why each video game is artistic in their own way which is great, but when they started debating on which piece of the subjectively artistic art is more artistic objectively, the video lost it's meaning to me.
Sleepteiner Did you watch the video all the way through? Because you'll find it ended in a TIE. Which makes your point moot.
Yes
Dude, read the title of the video! Go on, do it! No? Okay, I'll read it for you then: WHICH IS MORE ARTISTIC?
To me that does not sound like: WHAT IS THE MEANING OF ART?
Yes they debate about it in the video, but they're ultimately debating the former question.
I would love to see a Deadlock episode on the 2 most awesome games ever created by Valve.Half life 2 vs Portal 2.That would be so awesome.
I saw the table and starting laughing so hard! :)
God damnit, your good friend keeps talking about graphics, visuals, aestetics etc., but not actual *gameplay*. And TLOU had shit gameplay, *gameplay* is after all, very important in *games*
*Gasp! * really?
It didn't have shit gameplay the gameplay made you think it made you value resources and it made you think in a stealth aspect it certainly not shit gameplay
Mr.Man Many many many many many many
*way* too many people can't grasp that very simple concept.
Erik Beyer Paulsen I dunno, it had pretty fun gameplay.
Erik Beyer Paulsen gameplay is irrelevant in the debate.
Calling "The Last of Us" a game is the real fault. Its a clunky, boring and repetitive. Good story and it looks nice, but the mechanics are bad. Its more of a movie than a game.
Lol repetitive... Isn't that pacman? ;)
dragonddarkPSN Ooooh. Shots fired :D
Pew Pew! Or should I say, Waka Waka!
Game: activity engaged in for diversion or amusement
TLoU fits that criteria.
scrub naks It's definitely not faulty and it's mechanics definitely aren't bad.
Assuming the "choice /= art" argument is meant to apply to everything and not just games, all of music would beg to differ. The outline for a piece of music or song may stay the same, but no piece or song is performed the same way twice. There's also the existence of improvisational solos, which are entirely different every time.
E.T the Extra-Terrestrial is the best game in the whole universe, storytelling-wise, gameplay-wise, and especially the mechanics.
Pac-Man has creative inspiration? Apparently looking at three-quarters of pizza is creative.
Magnus von Crumple Gotta admit, the response is very impressive.
It was the first game ever to have power ups.
Magnus von Crumple Not just three quarters of a pizza, also melting popsicles that come in blue, pink, orange, and red
***** I've only played Call of Duty once for 10 minutes. I do understand, do you not get sarcasm?
Pacman was very well designed and programmed. It revolutionized the concept of a game and the addictiveness it could have
They are both art BOOM argument ended
AGREED! THE END!
StoppedDessert8 they are asking which is more artisitc
The Gamerpage Yeah, but it kinda turned into an argument of whether they were both art or not. Jared kept pushing the idea that Pac Man's NOT art at all, which forced Matt to keep defending that it is.
Friendship? ... Again?
His intros are more exciting than my life
I think a better question is, which the better art in the medium of a video game?