That's what I liked about "Along for the ride" the female lead was this shy, organized, maybe even a little closed up kind of person but even though she has some great character development throughout the film is not about changing who she is and she remains shy and introverted and organized and some will say boring by the end and I'm all here for it. I truly related and was happy to see a protagonist who not necessarily has to be the life of the party or the most outgoing person. Also the movie was super fun and sweet, you should watch it.
As someone who's both of those in a 'very' way...I agree. It's irritating how we're seen as 'boring' because we don't talk much or because, to the rest of society, we're more likely to have ''boring hobbies/interests''. These are the same people who find it very interesting and ''involving'' when it comes to the lives of some random ass celebrity 'breaking up' or 'divorcing' someone else. They also tho, do the same thing to the 'nerds' and 'geeks'. It's getting old, tiring, and repetitive.
This remainds me of when people said Cinderella wasn't feminist because she was quiet and wanted to treat everyone well no matter what. Like, shy people can be feminist without making cringy girlboss oneliners
Totally agree! Same with Snow White. Very often I have heard how weak, passive and boring she is. But there is a very good video here from "There Will Be Fudd": "Why Snow White Is (Still) the Strongest Disney Princess"!
Today mainstream culture portrays being a feminist as being an immature, spoiled and impolite lil brat. The thing I admire most about classic fairy tales like Snow White and Cinderella is how they manage to overcome human evilness in a non-combative and reactive way, not becoming bitter with the suffering.
@@tessahartman7870 The stereotypically masculine part is particularly upsetting. Masculine choices are fine and don't make anyone less of a woman, but there's this idea I think a lot of us have subconsciously that the only correct way to be a woman is to act more like a man. A boldly feminist choice is to be feminine when you want to be, but also know you have the choice to do whatever you want.
it concerns me with how those ‘girlboss’ things are stereotypically, or at least, traditionally masculine. stoic, strong, does not care about other’s feelings… it kind of says a lot on how being traditionally feminine is still isn’t completely accepted. a rejection of femininity, if you will. give me female characters that stays kind no matter how much the world is against them, or speaks about their feelings!!
"Why do we think that gentle and kind people can't be passionate and interesting?" - THIS! It's as if they view traditionally "feminine" characteristics as being "less than." I adore Anne and Fanny! They actually were a big part of my learning to accept and cherish the gentler and softer side of myself.
Yes! They were always my favorite characters because they were kids and gentle and shy like me. I hardly ever am able to identify with characters in TV, movies or even most books.
I love gentle characters so much! It hurts seeing media tear them down for not being strong enough, not tough enough, not a girlboss. Even now, when I write an oc that is soft feminine and patient, I get worried what people will think. Then immediately go "fuck that she'll be feminine as fuck."
Eleanor in sense and sensibility is the same way. And they didn't do her dirty and that adaptation, at least the one with Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet.
Skyler Patton, Yes! I remember hating Fanny the first time I read Mansfield Park, but the second time I understood her resilience and gentleness so much more clearly. And Anne has taught me to be more dignified. That's what I love about her.
Feminism is a political stance, so characters can’t be “feminist” just by personality alone, I don’t remember Cinderella standing up for women’s rights. Pure kindness makes for boring, one-dimensional characters anyway.
A huge part of Anne's character arc is realizing that even people she loves don't always truly have her best interests at heart, and she can love them while still acknowledging their flaws. She's a tender, achingly sincere person in an incredibly artificial world, and I hate when adaptations don't get that.
She's quiet, sensible and has fallen into a people pleasing role due to how both society and her family treat her. She used to bring the confidant and problem solver for the Musgroves and annoying pawn / assistant to her own family. She wants to be useful and is naturally self sacrificing. That's why she could be persuaded to give up Wentworth because she believed it would be better FOR HIM. This new Dakota Elliot WOULD NEVER have given up Wentworth. If told no, she probably would have stolen the best horse, had it crap on the doorstep / the louge room floor, and ridden off into the sunset making out with Wentworth.
@@kittikatsxactly..she had a lot of say so ..hair, red lips, mascara, eyeliner, clothing and their colors, personality…yes it most certainly had Dakota Johnson “wants and needs” to accept the role all over it. She wanted to check a period classic Jane Austin adaptation box on her accomplishments. She failed miserably. We will remember her as the worst depiction of Anne Elliot. She is not as wonderful at acting as she try’s to portray. She is always the same in hair style, tone of voice ….ONE DIMENSIONAL …sexual and pretty… even when she puts on her red carpet persona for attention. I would like to see her play a role where she is not made up and hair style, voice was altered to see her true acting chops if she has any. The great actresses can pull off any different unflattering look and still be great at their art. Not just looking the same in every movie or sexual in most in their movies. Playing a 28 year old mature sensible regency women as a snarky, immature with a drinking problem teen was horrendous.
People underestimate how tough you need to be in order to be polite, passive, calm, quiet. There’s strength in those qualities. Knowing when not to, and knowing when to speak up, and doing it with class. All of those things.
This is just sounds like a way of shaming people for speaking up for themselves. We’re expected to be totally cool being shat on constantly and never be upset, or we’re not “classy.” When you’re being hurt, it’s okay to show it.
"Can we stop pretending that over-consumption of alcohol is funny?" yeah. I think obviously there's a time and place for booze related humor, but without a critical eye I think "hehe wine mommy drinks to cope" is kind of a dangerous thing to normalize. it's naturally going to be funny when a character accidentally gets sauced at the formal dinner, but it's not a substitution for writing a personality. if you want a a character to be an alcoholic, I think they should be written with the less fun and quirky aspects of it too.
I have a character who drinks when he's nervous, but very rarely in excess. He also throws up when he's nervous, but he does that whether he drinks or not. He gets absolutely plastered at a particularly low point in his life, and almost dies from a mixture of alcohol poisoning, hypothermia, and pneumonia. After that, even the smell of alcohol makes him nauseous for a long time.
DUDE, YES. When did it become cute for women, moms in particular, to basically be lushes? All that merchandise - "rosé all day", wine o'clock" "mommy's happy juice". I mean, wth? Staying drunk all day, just to make it through, or to be around your children ain't the look.
I love my wine, but yes, being an alcoholic is not a fun quirk. Being in my 30s, I have been reducing my alcohol consumption a bit these past few years, and I still get asked, "why aren't you drinking?" Because sometimes I don't feel like it.
As a very shy person who usually keeps to herself, Cinderella was my favorite princess growing up. The "feminist" attacks on her (which I especially hate because she's a victim of abuse, and a lot of them are framed as blaming her for it) always felt really personal to me. It's been really refreshing to see the narrative change in the past few years.
You are right on both accounts. I am torn between feeling offended by these critiques and motivated to empower myself. Cinderella had no choice in becoming a traumatized victim, it is true. The problem is with the prince picking her precisely for these traits, not regardless of them (or even to help her become powerful). It gives girls false expectations because men who look for such women (and viceversa) are usually abusive.
@@CandyAndromeda the moral of the movie is NOT to wait for a man like cinderella, but to copy cinderella's kind-hearted and resilient character for good karma to happen. people mistook the message.
Cinderella was a role model of mine when I grew up. I was bullied by other girls at school kind of like Cinderella was bullied by her step-sisters but I chose to remain kind because I refused to fall to their level. I wanted to stay faithful to myself. And the funniest thing? I wasn't even interested in guys at the time. It only came in my 20s and by then, I had fully built my self-esteem on my own. When I see feminists criticize Cinderella, I feel like they are criticising my own life. Like if I was the main character of a tv show, I would have been called weak for not standing up toward my bullies even though it is easier said than done. They would overlook my qualities beacause they are seen as soft and would not see how strong I became by staying kind while led me to find worthy friends and to feel good about myself. Women are diverse and all kinds deserve to be celebrated. Praising one kind of woman is just backward when men decided what a woman should be. Well, feminists should not decide what women should be and give us the freedom to be who we want. So glad to know I am not the only one.
@@CandyAndromeda depends on the version. Where I'm from they first met in the forest where she was hiding from her stepmother and he from his teacher. She pranked him and ran away on a horseback, he ended up being impressed how well she could handle horses. This version is popular in Norway and some other parts of Europe.
The scene that made me turn off the show was when they had Anne bring up the point about her brother-in-law asking her to marry her before he proposed to her sister -- in front of a dinner party filled with her family and friends. There is absolutely NO WAY book Anne would do such a boorish thing. Embarrass her sister and brother-and-law? Try to make Wentworth jealous at the expense of her family? No, no, no. It turned her into a petty, conniving, nasty character, which is NOT Anne from the book.
And it was so unnecessary, too, cause a scene later we overhear Louisa relaying that same info to Wentworth, so there was literally no need to have Anne expose herself like that. If they had cut the Louisa-scene and still needed to pack the info in somehow for viewers who are unfamiliar with the book, it would have been a poor choice, but at least there’d have been some sort of sense to it. But like this ….
I made myself watch it twice. The first time I couldn't even watch it all without fastforwarding. The second time I made myself not fastforward, thinking maybe I'm just missing the parts that make it all make sense, but nope it never made sense it was "What?? Why??" the entire time.
A few minutes after that part, Mary made a snide comment about Anne (maybe when she was playing the piano and everyone else was dancing?), and I just thought that Mary's b*tchiness was completely warranted because of that comment at the dinner before. I didn't have any sympathy for Anne at all.
Haven’t you heard? Modern female characters aren’t allowed to have flaws and arcs - they’re 100% perfect girlboss bad bitch all the time and you’re misogynist if you hate it.
My main female character learns to stand up for herself and not be a people pleaser WITHOUT losing her gentle and sensitive nature. Her sensitivity is even praised.
which is especially ironic considering that needing women to have traditionally masculine traits in order to be worthy of admiration is pretty inherently misogynistic lol
I feel like having a gentle/shy character is frowned upon in today’s society because you’re only taken seriously if you’re loud and assertive. That’s probably why they avoided to portray Ann as such, which is why I’m wondering why they even bothered adapting this particular story.
Adapting stories with major elements they clearly "dislike" is my biggest pet peeve with Western media production companies in a nutshell. Ignoring great, modern stories with content in line with their vision to bastardize beloved classic that aren't is where we are today. WHY?
Word. Anne was quiet and a bit meek, but she wasn’t a complete doormat… she stood up to her father when she wanted to see her friend instead of the wealthy relatives (when it’s something she really cares about) that would’ve taken fortitude in the time when you’re supposed to obey your father
What movies say society wants is different from what society actually wants (caveat being society isn't an exact monolith and contradicts itself about what it wants from practically everyone all the time). Movies celebrate loud, assertive female protagonists, but I sometimes resent those movies because I know if I acted the way those characters act, I'd be in big trouble. And also note I said protagonists, not characters. You can easily make "loud and assertive" into negative traits as long as they're held by a meant-to-be-disliked character.
I think to this day, one of my favourite representations of a softer, more gentle protagonist is Sophie Hatter from Howl’s Moving Castle (the film adaptation, she’s very different but still just as lovely in the book). The film is set in a fictional world, but you can tell it draws inspiration from period pieces and visuals. One of the things I like most about Sophie (or most of Hayao Miyazaki’s female lead characters) is how her growth becomes evident and she matures but not at the cost of her softness, femininity or more quiet and nurturing side. It’s something very rare but always inspiring to see. Naturally, I can’t speak for everyone but if you’re used to this sort of “suppression of softness” that is common in western or Hollywood movies it’s a very nice chance of pace :)
I love how often Ghibli female leads will learn to gain confidence in themselves and that traits they already possessed are what is needed to end up resolving the conflict in the story, like in Laputa, Sheeta’s kindness never faded despite all the awful things that happen to her and Patsu in the story
I immediately thought of Ghibli films as well! They are so full of gentle characters (or actually passionate characters who learn to be more gentle instead of the other way around), who grow without loosing themselves.
my most favourite gentle character has been and will always be ‘miss honey’ from matilda. if people don’t think she’s an interesting and passionate character worth adventuring, i just can’t talk to you.
Oddly enough for me the underrepresentation and the frowning up on gentle female characters is misogynistic in itself. Softness is a stereotypically womanly characteristic, and implying that a main female character is only worthy of screen time if it gains stereotypically male characteristics like being outspoken and confident is kinda shitty. I am well aware of the fact that for a very long time female characters in cinematography were just portrayed as a weak side kick for a male protagonist, but I think we're past that. Women and men carry all kinds of characteristics within themselves, both of them can have developing arcs, they can go from tough to soft, and from soft to tough. They can be shy and they can be confident regardless of their gender.
Saying that softness and gentleness are 'stereotypically' womanly, but then saying it's mysoginistic that a stereotype is frowned upon, is what's mysoginistic. Why is it uncouth to hate a fraying-at-the-ends stereotype? Unless you see the stereotype as true, the idea that gentleness and softness are inherently (falsely) womanly. Softness all the time and shyness all the time or most of the time ARE NOT GOOD THINGS. They shouldn't be glamorised or excused. It's also an idea of woman that has been so overplayed, the film has burned itself on the reel. This persuasion lady made me so fuckin irritated. If book Anne is EVEN SHYER than her, Anne needs therapy holy shit.
@@hopesy12u4 disagree. The trope that's played out is women are only recognized as worthwhile or as a heroine if they are suddenly slinging bows and arrows or fighting or putting men in their place and not wanting to get married or something. It's been so over played for the last 20 years I want to gag
@@hopesy12u4 No one ever claimed Anne was "always ((only)) soft and shy", have you even watched the video where Karolina explained exactly that? Please just read the book before commenting on what you think her character might be like. Although, judging by your comment, empathy and gentleness might not be your strongest suit.
I'm a girl who does sword martial arts stuff, and it irritates me to no end that somehow a woman has to be capable of violence or else she's "weak." That's absolutely insane.
@@DeathnoteBB The woman in my book with the most mental fortitude is a pacifistic nurse with noodle arms who always has to ask somebody to help her lift something. And a major part of her development is admitting when she feels timid and afraid, and realising nobody worthwhile respects her any less for it.
Same frustrates me in case of male characters. Why do male characters always have to be buff, muscled, expert in fighting ten at a single time and have confidence of Zeus level in order to be an awesome male character???!!
The hyper-competent, violent, emotionless robot female character trope is so tired. Not everyone has to be Charlize Theron. She's great, but there are other shades to the female psyche
This is one of my favorite things about Austen as an author. For as long ago as she lived, she had a very well-rounded idea of what it meant to really be a "feminist." Elizabeth, Emma, Marianne, Fanny, Catherine, and Anne are all very different women, with very different flaws and shortcomings. Some are more well-rounded than others, and many of them would have not gotten along with the other protagonists. But, Austen sought to portray womanhood in all of its forms, not trying to claim that there was any one perfect way for a woman to behave. Women come in many forms and they are all valid. Feminism is not about teaching women to behave a certain way. It's about teaching the people around them to accept women for the people they truly are, whether that's outgoing and boisterous, like an Emma or Marianne, or quiet and sweet, like a Catherine or Anne.
Shakespeare was writing about varied female characters long before Austen, the outspoken Beatrice from Much Ado About Nothing or the villainous Lady Macbeth. And before him Chaucer was writing about the Wife of Bath.
@@unapologeticanti-feminist3205 I was literally about to respond, but then I read your channel name. Almost got me. Lolol. Have a good day, friend, hope life's treating you well!
@@erinw4935 yes because feminism must never be questioned, that's a healthy way of thinking, as is not talking to anyone who has a different view than yours...
@@unapologeticanti-feminist3205 You're not very good at reading between the lines are you? Actually scratch that, it looks like you didn't even read the actual lines of the first comment.
@@unapologeticanti-feminist3205 she did not say Austen was the only one... And i'm pretty sure there are not only 3 people in history who wrote varied women... (Many women wrote interesting varied women before shakespeare and Chaucer but I find it interesting you would need to man-one-up the comment about Austen by saying dudes did something first, which they did not really do btw, it's usually the other way around...)
One of the things I love about the 1995 film is that it allowed Anne to be quiet. All of her and Wentworth's emotions were in their eyes. They played that longing so well.
The first time I watched it I didn't even know what was going on until he helped her up onto the coach after the long walk, with the close up on his hand on her back and how completely torn up that understated moment made them both and I got that Pulp Fiction shot to the heart of Romance! Seriously one of the most erotic moments in a movie for me
I absolutely love that film. Everyone played their characters so well. Amanda Root plays her as the epitome of someone who gets led along by others who make loads of assumptions about her and she deals with it with poise and grace. So much can be learned from her.
I understand the dislike book lovers have towards this Persuasion. But for me, who hasn't read the story, the 95 version is a mystery. I did NOT get her emotion at all. Most of the other adaptations are the same. A person below felt that "tension" but for me Anne just perpetually looked like deer in headlights trying not to have panic attacks. I felt the sense of nervous anxiety, but I was clearly missing the key internal struggles Anne was facing because I had not read the book. This newer version, while definitely flawed, was able to help me understand where Anne was emotionally. I didn't mind the more modern perspective because I felt it was...stylized in way that made it more of a choice vs. simply not getting it. Of course I understand how people may disagree with that choice. I'd like a version that meets somewhere in the middle. Although, to be fair, Jane Austen was a big fan of snark and highlighting society and its contradictions, so I didn't mind the touch of snark or feelings of...fatigue Anne felt by her family and general position in life. I am making an effort to read the book to compare and contrast, but in my comparison of all the films I feel like the new version hit most of the points the other films did, they just took a more modern approach with dialogue and bringing you into Anne's emotional state. For me the 95 film (the best of the other adaptations) was so quiet and she was so meek looking/sounding/behaving I struggled to meet Anne where she was emotionally, so for a film translating a book I think it missed the emotional mark when bringing the Audience into Anne's emotional state. You'd have to already know to really understand.
"Can we stop pretenting that over-drinking characters are funny?" Thank you Karolina for saying this! As ACoA (Adult Child of Alcocholic) Im fucking tired of seeing how society thinks its funny, quirky or cool to see someone drunk or how this person ruin others lives only because they love alcochol more than their signifant people. Especially im tired of this culture in Poland, our Mother country, which have very high rating of Alcocholism and Domestic Abuse that is connected with Alcocholism(Most of Alcocholics abuse their spouses or kids, if they try to help with this addiction or if they dare to "bother") Like really, we need to end this culture! Its actually harmful
My parents were children of alcoholics and it’s really embedded in our culture of how alcoholic is seen as a gateway to dissociative performance in social settings.
I don’t drink, and I feel like most people think that’s super weird. I’ve even had people get weirdly defensive and be like “oh, so you think you’re better then me?” when all I’ve said is I don’t drink, if I’m offered one. For one I’ve been on antidepressants since I was a teenager, and also I don’t want to use alcohol to mask my problems with depression and anxiety, which I’m afraid I would do if I started drinking. So it’s easier for me to just abstain. I wish people didn’t act like it’s so weird to be an adult who doesn’t want to drink, at least here in the U.S.
@@jessica_jam4386 In Poland, you gonna get ridiculed Until they get bored because you dont drink. And I hope you are doing Well. Good luck with your journey
Same applies pretty much to Germany as well; our whole country has a severe alcohol problem and no one really talks or reflects about it, it‘s always just „MOAR BEER! hurR DuRr!“ 🙄
it really hurts because as someone for a long time felt like a wallflower, the quiet gentleness of anne really spoke to me. gentle characters need their representation desperately and its awful they made anne just another lizzie bennett clone.
I agree. Recently, I found myself not relating to any of these female characters in mass media that people look up to. Sometimes, I ask myself if I am the weird one for wanting to be quiet and gentle. The whole world is already so loud as it is.
I fully agree although Elizabeth Bennet knows how to behave ! Anne Elliot should have been more like Charlotte Lucas...and Dakota Johnson is just too pretty to be relatable. Someone like Sarah Snook with a more unconventional look would have been so much better.
Your Anne sounds like a clone of nearly every female protagonist pre-2010. Or did you forget how unbearably common they were. Anf they're still the most common flower of a trope given to women characters. Like fuck, they were coming out of my nose, ears, eyes and ass growing up. Im glad for the girlboss era, too bad too many girlboss characters are shittily written. Katniss everdeen is a good example of a girlboss, strong and gentle (you know, like a real life person). I just hate helpless cowardice in characters. Which you know, was the hallmark of most women chatacters for too fucking long.
I feel like Jane from pride and prejudice is a good example of a gentle quiet character in the movie adaptation. She’s overly nice to a fault, and she’s sweet and kind, but she gets her heart broken and you can feel still feel her pain, even when she’s not like wailing and screaming about it.
But she's allowed to be sweet and gentle because she's not the main character; filmmakers often consider it okay to have the best friend or the Sister be a damsel if the MC is assertive because her defense of the weaker friend only makes her look better. Its fine in P&P, because Lizzy really is a good person and she's still worth rooting for even without her being as meek as her sister. It becomes toxic when pushed into other narratives by the same author. For example, in Mansfield Park's case, some readers glorified one scene in which Mary Crawford (pretty damn lightly) defended Fanny from the others during the incident of the play, and set their expectations that Mary would become the "lead" and got mad at Fanny for not wanting to be her best friend. The assertive girl doesn't have to rescue the non-assertive girl to make her valid.
I think nowadays people have just started to realize that looking down on women that like to appear traditionally feminine or "girly" is misogynistic, like the "I'm not like other girls" trope does, the next step is understanding that also looking down on soft and gentle people is equally misogynistic. Let people be! what a boring world if we all were the same
Girlboss -> Adequate woman Gentle -> brainwashed by patriarchy into submissive tendencies Polite -> brainwashed by patriarchy into submissive tendencies Content with her life -> brainwashed by patriarchy into submissive tendencies Obnoxious douche -> Proper Sigma male Gentle -> Low testosterone, beta male cuck Polite -> Low testosterone, beta male cuck Content with his life -> Low testosterone, beta male cuck
Exactly! And the whole point is she quietly lived her life, and in the end it was the final jab at all the people who looked down on her. Without her even needing to say anything. She was the hero for us more reserved women.
Hollywood only likes gentle, shy, introverts if the only shred of character development they’re allowed to have is that they stop being that way (usually to make a boy/girl like them) and become a loudly confident, outspoken social butterfly at the end. Like why can’t someone just be shy and quiet? It’s been proven time and time again in literature that you don’t have to be extroverted to be interesting so there has to be a director/writer/producer who has the creative capabilities to translate that into a show or movie.
Right? Good point. I’m reminded of the lovely character, Sandy in the movie Grease. At the end she’s made over into a stereotypical slut and it’s treated as some sort of victory or triumph, as if she could only be interesting dressed in black spandex, stiletto heels, and gobs of makeup, even those things have nothing at all to do with her true character. It would have been a triumph if everyone else could have evolved enough to love and respect her just as she was.
Part of the reason why my introverted shy autistic self always thought I had to/would "flourish" into social butterfly when I was older, were the movies making this trope. Surprise surprise, I'm still pretty shy, extremely introverted even more than before and well of course, autistic. It would have been nice to see shy characters thrive once in a while.
It has to do with extraverted American cultures, whenever average Americans encounter people from different cultures and act not as outrageously extroverted as them or overly friendly and loud, they will feel uncomfortable and think u have autism, i have served american armies in hotel and they whispered about me that i might be autistic because i seem quiet and uninitiative, even they assume that many Germans are autistics because they are not overly fake friendly to anyone
Funnily enough, I tried this transformation in middle and high school. Very interesting experimentation that gave mixed positive and negative effects. Being loud and outwardly confident has its perks, but it is completely draining. Being quiet, people think AND act as if they can walk all over you. Now I'm both (and neither), and that's much more preferable. I still prefer to be myself, but will voice out my thoughts as necessary.
i think this has a lot to do with western society at large viewing introverted/shy/sensitive people (however you want to put it) as inherently defective and boring
I’m quiet extroverted, but from my point of view being a strong person means being able to stand up for yourself and what you believe in. Everything else doesn’t really matter.
I’m an outgoing extrovert, but it’s tiresome to see the same female characters over and over - especially since it’s done is such a cringe-worthy manner. I’ve always loved Austen’s Anne! Women come in all personalities - that’s what makes life interesting and realistic
4:39 It may just be a minor thing but "she doesn't care if her dress gets a little dirty" really hits different when they don't have a washing machine. Unless Anne washes her own clothes, it'd actually be kinder to be a bit more thoughtful and don't get your clothes needlessly dirty because at the end of the day you know that there has to be someone there who needs to clean them by hand.
This movie just treats its audience like we're stupid. Like we're too stupid to know if they're actually wearing period accurate clothing or not, we're too stupid to understand the characters if they talk differently than we do now, we're too stupid to apprechiate Anne as a gentle and quiet character. It's just so infantalizing.
to be fair, audiences have been lapping up stupidity for a long time. forking out dollars for the worst of music and entertainment. they wouldn't do this unless we paid for it. people need to start putting their foot down now.
Too stupid to not know that britain hadn't even abolished slavery during the time the show is set so casting black people as aristocracy is mind-blowing out of place
I'd say 99% of viewers have no idea about period accurate clothing. It's not something anyone learns about unless they study the subject out of private interest or study the subject in university.
Funny thing but they often consider it "growth" when a character goes from being soft and kind to being fierce and snarky and showing no emotions. I grew the other way around. I'm still me so very attached to my peace and quiet and independance, but I grew to accept my soft side, take care of people around me and appreciate comfort and quietness to a degree. I went from their view of a strong character to actual human being with different personnality traits lol
I agree, it's both ways interesting and awesome to see a gentle person learning to speak for itself and to journey of an overly confident and impulsive person to a more gentle, caring and thoughtful one. I think what captivate us it's to see the amount of effort, the learning process and the control of emotions.
This is why Constance (Ingrid Bergman) from Alfred Hitchcock's Spellbound is one of my favorite movie characters. She starts out as very hard and 'professional' as a psychiatrist, but actually learns that connecting with her emotions and intuition is a strength, not a weakness. It is also a very unusual movie, even by today's standards, because it has a male character (young Gregory Peck) in the 'damsel in distress' role.
I think a Persuasion adaptation by a director from a culture that historically values Anne's characteristics (Japan i.e) would be really interesting. I think such a director would tell Anne's story with the respect and admiration it deserves
Hollywood is super terrified of being "boring." They think because people like smart phones and video games, that you can't let a scene or a character breathe for a moment. There's this BEAUTIFUL shot in Christopher Robin (2018) of the tree that Pooh lives in and the film let it sit for a moment the way you would if you saw it in real life, which made me realize movies don't do that any longer. We used to get these pauses like you got in the real world such as in Stand By Me and Close Encounters of The Third Kind, where important plot stuff wasn't happening for a minute, just to let you think about what is going on. Now it has to be like D-Day every single second, which takes away the ability of characters and plots to naturally establish themselves, and for the audience to decide if they relate. Hollywood also just can't picture a gentle, delicate mouse of a woman being feminist enough- in spite of the fact that Persuasion is an incredibly feminist work about a woman coming to understand her own worth and power WITHOUT a man before she commits to a mature love that isn't caught up in stereotypes and gender norms, but is instead about respecting each other and holding each other up. The whole POINT of their separation is that neither of them was mature enough to respect the other at the same time they were respecting their own selves. It's not about her being a boss bitch that he couldn't handle because machismo, it's about them working out their flaws before they try to approach each other again!
This here is why I like anime, or Japanese cinema in general. These pauses, these chances to think, are much more ingrained within their culture than ours, to the point where a great deal of their art revolves around it. It's why so many shots, even in modern anime, are of things going on in the background rather than the characters themselves. I hate how modern Hollywood never gives us a chance to slow down.
Hence why I love Asian (particularly Japanese) cinema. Films like Our Little sister or the Hana and Alice films or Kiki's Delivery Service or Little Forest or Moonlit Winter (which is a sort of modern version of Persuasion in the sense that it is about two quiet, gentle people who are persuaded against each other, until chance brings them together years later) are all willing to slow down and let the audience just soak in the moment. They're all female-led, carefully observed movies, and even if the characters are very extroverted (Alice from the Hana and Alice duology is particularly outgoing), the films allow the characters to be vulnerable. The only recent American movie I can think of that is at all like this is Paterson with Adam Driver and Golshifteh Farahani.
It's so sad because Anne's quiet strength IS WHY FREDERICK LOVED HER. It's why he was able to forgive her after all those years. Anne is completely relatable. She's overlooked, underappreciated, kind, not the prettiest girl, can't really stand up for herself, but she's always trying hard and willing to help anyone she cares for no matter what it takes, and Frederick loves everything about her, and that was why she loves him. So changing her character was bound to ultimately make the romance suffer, and with the romance a mess, the whole movie doesn't work. I can forgive the bad costuming, the change in tone, the modern language, but without the lead characters and their romance making sense and following the book, there is no Persuasion.
There are two shy/gentle (but internally fierce) period characters that I think have been adapted really well and shown this, the first is Eleanor in Sense and Sensibility, the one played by Emma Thompson; the absolute epitome of quiet strength and passionate yearning, I cry when she cries at the end Hugh Grant finally confesses his love for her, the way the feelings burst out of her is some of the most incredible acting. The second is Scarlett Johansson in Girl With the Pearl Earring, in the book she's constantly talking because we're in her head, whereas in the film she barely says anything, her intelligence shows in all her looks and subtleties, you can see the cogs whirring away, and the sexual tension between her and Firth is palpable though they don't even touch.
I love how us ladies are coming together to rip this apart, lol. I find Anne to be so relatable, as well as something to aspire to with how capable, intelligent, and calm she is... but with this "modernized" version, not so much. Even Beverly Hills-set Clueless was able to remain true to the essence of Emma Woodhouse.
They always do that. So many characters who aren't even supposed to come across as flawed but instead near-perfect regarding the "Are they a good person?" question are often pretty bad and meant to be flawed characters are often just horrible. Most of them are also dangerous criminals. ("Accidental rapists" - And I am not talking about purely statutory rape cases.) Fry from Futurama is what I would call a flawed character who only has one or two things about him that go too far but are excusable.
@@camelopardalis84 My main character is named Michael. He is a bit timid yet hard-headed because of his smothering and well-meaning yet neglectful father who didn't prepare him for the real world. He doesn't handle stress very well in the beginning and is prone to making rash, even unpredictable decisions. He is large and physically imposing and likes boxing, is a bit assertive, but not domineering, and is very gentle and charitable. He adores his family and has a great sense of duty, but at the beginning is misguided and insecure. Some women take a liking to him because though he is not conventionally attractive by 1880s upper class standards (not ugly. Just "eh"), he appears to be a brooding and mysterious Byronic hero. In reality, he's just shy and has RBF. He's not good at talking to girls, and his long treks into the woods merely come from a genuine love of nature, in a practical and not romantic sense.
@@camelopardalis84 You're completely right! And they do this even when it completely ruins the moral and meaning. My best/worst example of this is Sir Gawain - in Gawain & the Green Knight, he's a renowned, valiant, sharply self-critical knight doing his absolute best. He is as close to the Ideal Knight as it is possible for a human to be. And he STILL MESSES UP. That's the whole *point* of the story! That no matter how good you are, no matter how hard you try, you are human and you will, at some point, fail. But this does not condemn you, nor is it a reason to STOP trying. But for all of that, it relies on two things: first of all, steel-manning the character. He has to be shown to be a earnestly good and true knight, or it's just a idiot being an idiot. And second of all, Gawain must have been trying in the first place. In the original tale, he's trying so hard all of the time that it becomes painful the moment you see him accept the girdle. Becuase you KNOW he isn't going to forgive himself for that; because you sympathize with this poor half-starved knight who traded his life for his king's. That's the other important part, I think. It always gets left out, but he accepted the challenge, not to prove himself or becuase it was there, but because Arthur accepted first. He didn't have to request the challenge be given to him, he had every reason not to. The film removes all of this nonesense like 'themes' and 'sympathetic characters' and 'really, really top-notch characterization (and angst)' to give you.... Angsty Boy With Issues Learns Truth Is Important: This One's Medieval! ....I may care too much about this. Just a slim chance.
@@sciranger6703 My character has to figure out whether or not it was morally okay to beat up a (suspected) kiddie toucher and bring the wrath of the corrupt magistrate down on his employer's household because the dude was his nephew. He never comes up with a definitive answer.
Ok as someone who was in the drama theatre world for a long time, I’ll tell you right now that it is dominated by extroverts. Especially actors, but also directors and people in drama in general. I believe this influences how they portray and shape characters a lot - because the culture of drama is so extroverted, they can’t conceive or understand how an introverted heroine could be interesting, relatable, beautiful. It’s a huge disservice to the industry and the stories they tell, and especially to Persuasion and Anne Eliot.
Kind of related but, I've always thought about the music industry, 'they need to get those extraverts out of there,' because the songs they write are always so shallow and ridiculous.
Omg thank you for saying this. I went to a posh drama school in London, and many of my peers never took me seriously. This was because I was "too nice" and not willing to step on others to get what I wanted. You shouldn't have to knock others down to make yourself higher. You are absolutely right! The acting world is hugely represented by boisterous extroverts.
I have indeed slid into my bathtub like that because dramatic is my aesthetic, but maybe that's just me... One of the most bizarre things in this movie, and there were many, was how they left Anne depressed and pining for Wentworth, but didn't really give her anything to be depressed about other than pining for Wentworth. In the novel, she is almost completely isolated; none of her family members like her all that much, her only ally is Lady Russell, and then later (kind of) her childhood friend. In the movie, she seems like her life is relatively good, she's confident, has a fun Auntie relationship with her nephews, has a fun relationship with her sisters-in-law, she doesn't seem to be too bothered about her situation. I feel like part of the reason Novel Anne pinned for Wentworth for so long was because Wentworth was the best thing to happen to her, he made her feel wanted for the first, and last, time. To me, the character of Movie Anne would have gotten over Wenthworth, she seems more strong willed and confident.
You captured it perfectly. Like with a situation like this a character like the "new ann" would not excist. No one would be able to be this confident living under such circumstance. With her strong willed persona she would not accept her situation and stay kind and supportive of everyone around them.
As a shy girl with years of meh friends, who fell for my first boyfriend because he showed me my worth, yes, the book sounds like it makes way more sense. Feeling wanted is important.
I think genuinely many writers can't write gentle characters because our society (particularly in the US) so heavily relies on social and physical agression for problem solving. Gentleness is not prioritized in our culture and passivity is seen as an anethma to good storytelling. It's kind of a shame.
This work only could work it, if they would have translet this story to our modern times. Why they don't do that? They did the same with Bride and Prejudice. Not only this story doesn't work because the director didn't understand Jane Austen's characters, but also seems not very historical accuarte. Using modern ideas in a society that its probably didn't have it.
Desperately need period dramas to be made by filmmakers who actually LIKE period dramas. There's such a palpable distain for them throughout this film.
The one behind Mansfield Park 1999 adaptation actually admitted not being interested in the story and protagonist so she just made up stuff. I don't get why take the job at all then. Pretty disrespectful and arrogant to think you can just rewrite a classic and make it about something else entirely.
Sometimes it feels almost as if the people making the show HATE the period they’re working in, and want to convince the audience how much better modernity is through the work… even though that’s the opposite of the point of the show. This is especially prevalent in bridgerton, which takes so many (poorly developed) shots at regency life and is so aggressively modernized that it makes you confused as to why they even made the show, when it’s clear how ugly and evil the think the time and place was. Like is it revenge of something?
@@mdgsk824 thank you! Too many people praise her for her crap film which spat on its source material. Also, whoever cast Frances O'Connor as Fanny when they literally had Molly Gibson (Justine Waddell) on set and she would have been PERFECT, needs slapped. Sophia Myles as Susan and Johnny Lee Miller as Edmund were good though. Their Henry was too handsome; he's supposed to be plain and short. I hate when people adapt books they admitted in the past they don't like. That's why I'm a little afraid of Andrew Davies ever doing a Mansfield Park adaptation. On the one hand I LOVE his Wives and Daughters (and Pride and Prejudice, of course) and to be fair he did a good job on Sense and Sensibility while trash talking poor Edward Ferrars and Colonel Brandon and calling them bad characters (what a butthead), but if we get a repeat of 1999 because Davies decides Fanny isn't "good" or "feminist" enough it'll break my heart. Give his kind of crap version of Anne De bourgh in P&P, I don't trust him with quiet sickly characters... Getting back to the 1999 director, she's also a freaking pervert, she only wanted to do the film so she could add scenes of Mary and Fanny being touchy-feelly.
That's a common trend right? Star Wars writers hating original SW, Star Trek writers hating original ST, Witcher writers hating Witcher novels... As I said before, everyone seems to need to be a genius now. All ego, no humility. Just try to get a good new page into that long history, don't 'revolutionize' everything with your 'genius' 'reinterpretation' for 'modern audiences'. A classic doesn't need revolution, it needs evolution and continuity. There's a reason it's a freaking classic in the first place. We don't need your reinterpretation, leave the interpreting to the audience. And audiences are not modern or antique, they're just human beings absorbing stories as we have been since the dawn of time.
Absolutely. I thought we were past the trend of turning a goody two shoes character into a edgy borderline sociopathic one to make them more "interesting". It's so 2010s.
The thing is, most people want to see this uu. You can see this in everyday media. The quirky charakters, as fucked up as they sometimes are, are still the all time favorites xx.
As someone who HEAVILY relates to Cinderella I often felt that I wasn’t good enough because everyone would diss her and bash her down. It’s so frustrating that Hollywood is so desperate and determined to continue to keep beating woman down.
My favorite Persuasion adaptation is the one from 1995. It was basically perfect! Anne was passive and learned how to speak up for herself. It was portrayed so well and the longing was impeccable. If anyone wants to watch a good Persuasion, that’s the one!
I couldn’t agree more and I think Ciaran Hinds was the perfect Frederick even if he was a bit older than he should have been .. my goodness he’s handsome!
Yes the scene when he hurriedly wrote the note for Anne after eavesdropping on her conversation with one of his friends(Harville?, I forget)... was just *chefs kiss
But this Anne would still fall far short of Classic Emma Woodhouse, who spends the entire story stumbling along and slowly realizing how foolish she is, learning humility and what the limits of her influence should be in the choices of others. A character who doesn't develop or learn anything is not worth watching/reading. Let good, moral Anne be herself! Let her silence tell the great story of her heart. Let these 'modernized' female characters fall away as forgettable flavors of the month, and be no reflection of real females in any time period.
Friendly reminder to go watch the 1995 version of Persuasion. Now THAT is an underrated gem that deserves a Criterion remaster. Everyone did their homework and not just understood the source material to a T, but elevated them. The screenplay is amazing, the characters are so nuanced that it makes the pivotal moments hit even harder,. The cinematography and direction is fantastic and the music is sublime. It doesn't hold your hand and treats the audience like adults who actually use their brains and understand subtlety and nuance. Please, please PLEASE I beg those who have not seen it, go watch that because THAT is how you do an adaptation! Edit: I don't recommend the 2007 version. The film is mediocre to say the least and tries to overcompensate so much. The way they handled the accident scene truly made me laugh out loud, and the final letter scene was so over the top dramatic that it told me the directors/makers of the movie had little to no faith in the source material because they thought it would be too boring. If you're still skeptical about the '95 version, just search for the letter scene. Let me tell you the build up of the entire movie to that scene will have your heart racing!
Right?!?!! Besides the actors being FAR too old, I mean the actor for Wentworth is straight up in his 40s, and the actress for Anne also looks at a minimum late 30s, when they are both supposed to be 30 and 28 respectively. But besides that, everything that is true to the spirit of the characters is represented. In my opinion, the mid 90s obsession with Jane Austen is still the gold standard. Except for the dance scene in 2004s P&P, that's unparalleled.
I don't think it's just Hollywood. It's the world in general that is designed for extroverts. Or rather for loud people. I've seen it and experienced it my whole life.
Yes! The louder you are, the more you talk, the more you are present and visible to people the more successful you become. Being quiet, avoiding and not existing makes people second guess and you end up wondering who you have become 😂💯😂. In other words, now it makes sense why public people like politians etc depend on "broadcasting and acting". If you don't give people an image they create one of their own inspired by their expectations and experiences which do not neccessary need have to do with you. Cheers!
What you said at the end was spot on. Why would you make period pieces so modern? Then they completely lose their purpose. One of the reasons Jane Austen's works had such a revival is b/c we all want to imagine we live back in that day when everyone was so nice and polite and orderly, at least on the surface. They want to completely wipe out the past, but that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There's a lot that was very charming and wholesome about that era.
Modern Hollywood Girlbossification really does ruin a lot of female characters :( You don't have to give women stereotypically masculine traits to make them interesting, it's just lazy writing at this point
yes!!! beside this story doesn't need girlbass at all. but modorn girlboss is a man in female body - drinking, swearing, fighting. creators still cannot write a female vharacter in 2022 wtf
Seriously! This is why Winona's "Jo" will always be THE best!! She grows into herself so fully and gracefully and doesn't have to tear anyone else down to do it!
as someone who takes depression baths: I get internally cold when I'm feeling down or when I'm overstimulated and shutting down, so I can say that the trope is annoying but not completely inaccurate/unusual. I take a lot of baths when I just need the heat to give me the sensory stimulation that will make me feel better. The More You Know TM
I loved the 2007 version of Persuasion. Her inner dialogue as she writes in letters and diaries helped flush out her character. How infuriating her family is, how isolated she was not only in romance but friendships and peers. I loved the book and the 2007 version but every other adaptation fell short for me.
"Now we're strangers; worse than strangers, we're exes." Persuasion 2022 That's not playing around with the dialogue and adding something modern... that's butchering the subtle, sophisticated, and emotionally enigmatic poetry of Austen's writing and turning it into something I tried writing when I was 11 and trying to be cool.... *retching sound
I feel like all movie writers now never mentally matured past middle school. A lot of dialogue nowadays sounds like some shit I would have written in middle school
Henry Golding was originally cast as Wentworth but asked/begged to be Mr. Elliot, he wanted a character with more depth, lol, I guess he read the script and realized they made a sloppy mess of Wentworth and decided to go with a better written character, lol
I would rather prefer he wasn't cast at all- and I'm a fellow Malaysian. The non Caucasian actors looked extremely jarring in historical dramas like this. 😥
I sat in the living room, and my mom was watching Netflix, I sat and thought this plot seemed familiar, then the horror, I realized it was Anne Elliott!! The more I watched the more horrible it became, the spice of persuassion was unnecessary an over the top! After the first 15 minutes I couldn't continue to see, I just left, 😭Anne my dear what they have done to you!!!
I just watched a movie last night called "A little princess" and besides the fact that the setting is completely wrong, they took away all the parts of the character that made me love the book protagonist Sara Crewe. She's quite quiet, gentle, with a heart made of roses and sunflowers. At the same time she loves girly things like frills, laces, dolls, jewelry and extravagance while also not being spoilt AND not looking down on others for having less. She was also extremely clever, smart, charming, and talented. All of these qualities don't exist in the movie version. She seems spoilt, disinteresting, we don't see her being clever, smart, etc. She bullies one of the other students and and that point it's literally not the same character lmao
A little bit late, but still) I like Sara's story as well! Have you seen the British series "A little princess" made in 1986? It's magical and, in my opinion, the best adaptation of all.
@@lilacsunset13 no I haven't! I'll have to watch that then to see if it's better. Something that threw me off about the movie was the actress playing Sara. It never directly says it in the book but I always assumed she was half or partially Indian since most people think she's a foreign or Indian princess. I also assumed her father was an Indian man as well as Mr. Carrisford. I was very disappointed while watching hahaha 😂
@@zvezdoblyat No, neither she and nor her father were Indians. She was from the English family; the story takes part in the 19th century, when India was the British colony, so many English people (especially rich) lived there, and Sara with her father as well. Her mother died in her early childhood and father later decided to bring daughter to the England, because of the Indian climate and because his late wife studied there as well. For me Sara is such an inspiring character! Her calmness and dignity, her maturity and intelligence, her kindness and an ability to stay a princess in the most difficult times!.. And they make her a stupid bully. Gosh( When was that nightmare movie created? Where? There're so many adaptations and many of them are quite different from the book, but that is beyond me.
The truly heroic is totally lost in Anne's character in this adaptation. The original story is somewhat reminiscent of Cinderella, a woman who stands in the shadows and who manages to maintain her inner dignity and poise despite receiving the message from those around her that she is irrelevant and unimportant. A strange idea of the producers to want to "correct" the story of an author of Jane Austen's caliber. So, what's next? Shakespeare's "Macbath" as a comedy series? The stories of Mickey Mouse as family drama? A new adaptation of "The Sound of Music" as an erotic thriller?
Maintaining inner dignity and worth despite those around you saying your mean nothing is such an important and inspiring characteristic. Thank you for your comment. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Yikes, glad I haven’t seen that Netflix adaptation of Persuasion! Looks like I am better off reading the book. Mickey Mouse as family drama series would be cool! XD
Actually, shy and kind characters are frowned upon because those are "feminine" traits, and people thinks that a strong woman need to have "masculine" traits (see: Cinderella, who is seen as a "damsel in distress", when she's actually facing abuse and strong enough to stay kind and gentle with others. She saved herself, by not becoming like her abusers and by believing and fighting for her dreams, and going to the ball after all. Having the prince felling in love with her is actually her reward, and the punishment of her abusers who wanted the power)
That's such a good point. Cinderella is always talked about as a damsel in distress and people say oh look she's saved by the Prince... but when you actually think about what's she's been through and survived that abuse for all those years it's pretty eye-opening! I'd like to see more characters that are shy and kind without that being twisted around to be shown as weak and that they have to change etc.
I agree except for there is no such reward in real life, I would know. The best thing that ever happened to me is turning out to no be into men at all. She would be primed for an abusive troll, not a prince.
@@CandyAndromeda maybe you're looking for a certain type of reward, and not seeing the blessings already around you. Life isn't always consistently awesome or crappy. It's more nuanced than that. But kind and ethical people are rewarded for their kindness in life, one way or another. Karma is fair
Wait wait wait have you not seen 1995’s Persuasion with Amanda Root and Ciaran Hinds? That’s my favorite! The best! It’s not the most cinematically entertaining but as adaptations go, it certainly was faithful. You also see the physical (not just character) development in Anne. She looked such an old maid at the start but somewhere she started smiling more and she started looking lighter (for lack of a better word).
Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel also! I didn't quite understand why, and I felt like I was cheating on Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility, but I think I get it now. When we start the book, Anne is a depressed, passive introvert. At the end of the story she is happy, reasonably assertive, and still an introvert! You talk about it briefly, but Hollywood has this nasty tendency to treat introversion like a character flaw. Austen doesn't do that and I thank her for it
Now that you mention it, it would be quite cool to have a totally historically accurate set, interactions, and characters with some references to modern language, making them more relatable, and highlight the fact that the characters are people, "regular people" were "regular people" in the past too 🤷♀
You should check out the tv show Dickinson! It gives you characters complaining about "spoilers" in Dickens books while still being dressed in period accurate clothing (at least, I remember Bernadette Banner being pretty positive about the clothes). It is of course comedy and can get very quirky, so it's not going to be the typical period drama "drama"... but I loved watching it!
When you portray a historical and/or geographical setting and one aspect of the interpretation is modernized/localized in a way that clashes with the setting that's called "V-Effect" (from German "Verfremdung" for alienation). It was used by Bertolt Brecht to intentionally break the immersion so the audience would think about the themes of the story rather than accept it at face value
Funny enough, this sort of thing is the entire reason behind the channel Regular Car Reviews. The guys behind it were frustrated with how car culture and journalism focuses so hard on the legendary luxury/sports models and seems to forget that most cars manufactured in every era have just been regular cars for regular people. They wanted to celebrate those cars and the people who drove them, and now they're one of the most successful automotive channels on TH-cam.
"The whole reason we watch period dramas is to immerse ourselves in the past." EXACTLY THIS!!!!! A movie I believe that does this well is David Lynch's movie, The Elephant Man because everything from the costumes and the setting down to using black and white film immerses us into the world of late 19th Century London England. I just wish this film had more of that, tbh. When I watch a Jane Austen adaptation, it feels like I'm watching a beautiful painting from that era come to life. Pride & Prejudice, Sense & Sensibility, and Emma get that right
Also, the 2012 Oscar winning movie, The Artist did a perfect job at capturing the same thing which was the early 1920s silent film era. They knew how to accurately depict silent films and the glamorous Hollywood side of the 20s very well. The visuals are stunning to look at
It's impossible to immerse people in period dramas with the current trend of anachronistic dialogue, costumes and casting which unfortunately was massively popularised by Bridgerton and now everyone is trying to copy. It only worked with Bridgerton because they fully embraced the anachronisms, everything from the Billie Eilish soundtrack, glittery gowns, casting, dialogue, everything embraced the modernised fantasy non historical vibe of the show. What doesn't work is when shows try to do both, some things accurate and some things innacurate. It's confusing for the viewer and completely takes them out of the immersion. It only works if you're 100% accurate or not at all
@@hi-ve1cw That's the sad part! Ever since Bridgerton happened, people try to give period dramas a 2022 spin when that is not completely accurate at all. The reason why Clueless and 10 Things I Hate About You worked so well is because they are contemporary/modern and up-to-date adaptations yet at the same time, you can tell they studied Jane Austen and Shakespeare's works so they still respected the story.
One of my favorite gentle characters in Hollywood is Adrienne from Rocky. She is quiet and kind, and once she learns to speak her mind she doesn't lose the gentleness that makes her special. It becomes more powerful, because now she has the courage to say the things she needs to say to love her man.
I absolutely love the 1995 adaptation, it’s so melancholic and so well thought, it has that longing in a very subtle way ❤️ and at least anne doesn’t say “we’re exes”
i feel like this trope of “soft” women not being represented/being looked down upon in media is just another form of misogyny. there are many ways of being a woman and none of them are wrong. An antifeminist female character is one that’s centered around a male character, not one that’s soft and shy. and I feel as if the trend of strong, meta, sarcastic female characters is so- stupid, when it’s not done well. If a woman character is all meta and sarcastic and quirky and self-depreciating just for the sake of not being labeled as “one of the other regressive antifeminist feminine girlies who do everything for men”, and not to say anything about her character or experiences in life, then she’s still a character centered around the male gaze; she’s still a weak antifeminist character, if that makes sense. The charm of Jane Austen was her ability to write good women characters from the PERSPECTIVE of women. They were good characters because they were real people. This trend shows no real people and no human beings. Shows like fleabag are so good because that’s genuinely part of the character’s cHARACTER and experiences in life- she is the way she is because her environment has made her this way. Shows like this one, that almost look down on women for being shy and older and kind, are bAd, because they’re making a woman character for the sole purpose of her likeability and relatability, not because she’s a human being. I hope that makes sense??? Just- there’s no wrong way to be a woman. you’re not disinteresting if you’re quiet. Making women feel as if they’re not enough is the problem, not anything women do or are.
“An anti-feminist female character is one that’s centred around a male character, not one that’s soft and shy” PREACH. So many people don’t realise this.
Couldn’t agree more. It also hinders the love story, because the “girlboss” conflicts with the idea of being totally, stupidly in love with **gasp** a man and wanting to be devoted to him.
@@purpurina5663 The other greatness of Austin is that it also doesn't say there's only one way to feel a deep & all encompassing love. My favorite Austin love story has always been between Marianne Dashwood & Colonel Brandon from Sense & Sensibility, because she starts out with an idealized view of love, but in the end learns that true love is more sincere than poetry alone. Love can be patient & soft, but still be every bit as passionate within. It doesn't have to be some crazy grand romance to be just as deeply felt & expressed.
It hella is, but i feel like it’s also steeped in the fact that the “gentle, quiet woman” can be reminiscent of old anti-feminist stereotype of women. It’s just as much the audience’s fault as it is the producers, i feel like when *some* people see a gentle quiet woman they go “MISOGYNSTIC” which isn’t true at all. At least in the buzzfeed era they did.
Pride and Prejudice is my favorite Jane Austen, but nothing has hit me harder than reading the scene in Persuasion where he come back in for his gloves and puts the letter on the table. In order for something that small to have so great an impact, you have to see how reserved both Anne and Wentworth ALWAYS are.
I love how Austen ups the tension by not allowing Anne any peace and quiet to absorb the letter’s contents but has Anne’s family immediately reenter to surround her in noise and chatter.
I hate movies that try to modernise old works and period times, to freshen up or appeal and relate to millennials. That’s not getting them more into history, it’s distorting it, they gotta just accept how things were back then. Yes, relationships, fashion and rules for women were different and difficult, but let’s not over-write, modernise or fantasise it because it’s easier. All your criticisms are on point!
I only watched this adaptation yesterday, and you said exactly what I was thinking of it, I agree with every word! I love Anne's and Wentworth's personality, and was horrified how much they changed them in the movie, along with many other changes (I was constantly asking during the beach scene 'when will it end', it was painful to watch).
Persuasion is my absolute favourite book, for similar reasons ( it's the YEARNING!). Like, the LETTER? 'You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope' (maybe not an exact quote) still gives me heart palpitations whenever I think about it. And I didn't even know there was a Netflix adaptation! Maybe I should've stayed ignorant though...
Best letter in English lit, completely ruined and made pointless in this Netflix “adaptation” Ignorance is bliss... Watch 1995 or 2007 versions and be happy
I get you! Persuasion is my favourite Jane Austen book! I've loved Anne so much and hurted alongside her too- the way she manages through the difficulties is just so amazing
In the 1995 film, I felt that Anne offered to take care of Young Charles partly because she didn't want to see Wentworth and feel her soul break, but she also just wanted Charles and Mary to shut up. Having an argument about your child within earshot of him, acting like children themselves, Anne stepped up and let them go.
I agree with every single word. Every single one of them. Persuasion is my most favourite book, exactly because it finally had a heroine that felt familiar to me, that I could find myself in. I find it disgusting how they butchered this masterpiece for the sake of “show” and millennial taste… disgusting. Thank you for voicing this and making this video! ❤️
About gentle characters, one of the reasons why I fell in love with Korean dramas is exactly because they know how to portray the tension, the silent love, characters that are observants, that take time to understand their feelings, without being in your face...I hate how everything now is rushed I am shy and introverted, so it takes time for me to actually express what I am feeling I absolutely love pride and prejudice because of that tension, the stares from afar....because, when they actually dance together, when they have the slightest touch, it feels intense...you, as a viewer, have been rooting so much for them that those scenes actually feel like a reaward hahahah
This. I wholeheartedly agree with your point. Korean dramas do gentle characters really well. I hope that a future version of Persuasion will be able to do its characters justice in a similar fashion!
@@CatharticCreation Angel's Last Mission: Love, Family's Honor, My Love From the Star, Wife Returns, Can You Hear My Heart?, Cain and Abel, Save Your Last Dance For Me, Descendants of the Sun ... those are some of my favorites
The obsession to make every female protagonist "witty" and "unique" by just making them alcoholic and sarcartic is so tiredsome, please let protagonists be gentle and soft
One of the reasons I've always thought this was Austen's most important work was that it's an example of a character learning to stand up for herself, and to make decisions in her own best interest, in spite of having always put others first in the past. And I couldn't agree with your critique more; it's rather gratifying to see the number of comments in agreement as well.
seeing everyone trashing this film has made me very interested in the book. im very soft spoken and a bit of a doormat (im working on it!) so a book about a gentle quiet person learning how to say no is exactly what i need in my life. i’ll finish the book im reading now and then get persuasion :)
I'm waiting for the day when a movie/show gets a quiet/shy feminist character RIGHT. its so easy to write loud and proud feminism, to the point where it can be obnoxious/unlikeable, and people don't want to put in the effort to have a character that's quietly strong. I'm not loud, I'm incredibly shy but i can stand up for myself in quiet ways, and I've yet to see a character i feel truly represents who i am on a screen.
well... they did it in the past, not so far actually. for example, in 90s Disney's cartoon movies. there were strong, powerful women but they had their weaknesses and they also didn't have to show their "women power"TM EVERY SECOND of the movie
Question: can a "quiet/shy feminist character" be cunning? If so then you can have such a character easily, provided she's a paragon of Sun Tzu & Machiavelli's principles.
I’ve been noticing the lack of soft/shy character representation since I was 17 and started writing, the main character came naturally to me as a way to describe my experiences with social anxiety and to show that it’s normal and ok and everyone doesn’t have to have this cookie cutter sassy personality, even after character arc-ing But oh my gosh it would be so nice to see more of this representation from books and movies and other story mediums, coming from someone who always felt bad for being unable to live up to the “strong female archetype”
The princess diaries was that character for me because she struggled with public speaking and I had the same issue along with self doubt. They don’t make a lot of characters that much anymore because of the times
I turned 13 in 2001, and I remember being so excited when I discovered Gilmore Girls and the main teenage character was a bookish, and shy girl who at didnt get a bf until she was 16 and seemed so much more relatable to me than the other popular teen shows at the time. You can imagine my dismay when Rory became a society party girl with a party boy boyfriend later in the show 😭 I was like noooo, you took my one character I could relate to and made her just like every other girl character on every other WB/CW show lol.
as someone who also gets socially anxious and tends to be quieter, Newt Scamander is one of my all-time favourite characters for this exact reason. he's quiet and occasionally awkward but not shy, he's assertive and brave but still very kind, and he's not typically "masculine" but is never "emasculated" (by others or by the writers) - and these qualities are never portrayed as a bad thing or as lesser; he's not really got a problem with the way he is the same way I don't. The Eleventh Doctor from Doctor Who is very similar (and another favourite of mine) but I've yet to find a female equivalent I can really relate to.
There are two other versions of Persuasion which are by far way better than this. The one in the 90's with Ciaran Hinds is a near perfect adaptation, and the one from '07 with Sally Hawkins is a little more condensed but has quite a dreamlike quality to it and really nails the internal pining and anguish. If you haven't watched either of them, I highly recommend both!
Persuasion is one of my favorite books, too. Totally relate to Anne, and love her gentle, quiet, character! I just walked into my library and grabbed my copy of the book to read again. :) You are absolutely right. Gentle characters need more love and respect and representation in movies.
Emma Thompson pulled off this type of character. Between her and Ang Lee's direction, "Sense and Sensibility" had no problem communicating the inner life of a quiet non-assertive person.
@@christinawatkinsyoutube 'Woke' culture is just another symptom, as is the coarsening of taste. The cause is deeper: a growing distrust for reason, which has also translated to fewer and fewer people having any idea what it is to actually think, and a growing focus on emotions as the barometer for right and wrong. At least that's the overly short version.
Woke culture is ruining things? That makes no sense. If anything, being woke would encompass being aware of the variety and nuances of human traits and appreciating a quiet person for who they are, rather than having to change them to what “society” think is best.
My problem with people complaining about "woke culture" is that people tend to use it to inevitably complain about something they don't like rather than explain the nuances of the issue and how it should be improved. And certain things they may like or do would have once been treated with same disdain decades ago anyway.
I need to read Persuasion again. I read it years back & loved how different the protagonist was. She was a pushover, but she was intelligent & a deep thinker. And I think it's the only book where they describe how some people can look better with age. Another character that modern movie makers cannot faithfully adapt is Irene Adler. A writer pointed out that the reason Adler was a standout in the books was: a) she bested Sherlock b) she was genuinely a good person, disproving Sherlock's misogyny c) she was very independent minded. In the adaptations, she's outsmarted by Sherlock, she's usually a crook & often she's working for Moriarty. Making her nothing out of the ordinary.
Excellent point about Irene Adler! It makes me so mad when people reduce her to a #girlboss who's in love with Holmes. I get why adaptations might not want to follow her story completely because her ending up married to an unrelated man might alienate women who feel empowered by her, but honestly? I love that she gets what she wants. A modern adaptation could have her just moving out from the King's influence and getting to live her own life. Also, I'd argue a little about her being a good person - her motives were ultimately good, but I enjoy how the blackmail muddies the waters a bit and makes her a little morally grey. Moral complexities make for realistic and interesting characters! And it seems like a lot of female characters aren't allowed to be morally complex, they have to be a girlboss or a saint or evil to their core (or aligned with evil because they're being forced by a scary man) because they're held up to a much higher standard than male characters (This isn't a criticism of your comment, I just enjoy talking about Irene!!)
@@nowherels64 from what I remember, she doesn't blackmail the King. The King just assumes that she will some day. When she says in her note that she isn't planning to use the letters but wants to keep them as security, the King immediately believes it as she's a woman of her word. Sherlock gets mad at the King because he was under the impression he was going after a blackmailer. I may remember it wrong though - another story I need to revisit. I do like morally gray characters in general, but in the case of Adler, I felt that her integrity was critical to the plot as it makes Sherlock rethink his biases.
I don’t think she was a pushover as much as she was stagnant. She lost the love of her life because she had to sacrifice that union in favor of her family. She never got over that, and keeps acting in that same pattern. She hasn’t grown or changed as a person because she’s stuck in the same unchanging position. The events of the novel give her growth opertunity. Not just Wentworth coming back, but more importantly the whole letting of her home, the going to Bath and reconnecting with an old friend, just the traveling in general.
@@Smd3580 ah fair enough! I also need to revisit the story, it's been ages since I actually read the originals. Good point about her morality! That does make sense, actually. I think I'm probably remembering it a little differently. To the books!
@@nowherels64 you are right. She did threaten to send the photograph to the King's fiancé, before she fell in love with someone else. And Sherlock didn't get mad at the King for misleading him on her character. Not sure why that interpretation has stuck with me all these years. She threatened the King because she wanted to stop his wedding to someone else, which is morally gray. But it was for love and not for profit. Movies today would probably feel such a motivation would make her seem weak. Making her a greedy opportunist appears a lot more empowering. I actually liked that she got married to a completely unrelated character, who clearly knew all about her past and supported her. She left a King for this man. It showed more depth of character and intelligence, since he was clearly a better man than the King. Loved that I got to revisit this story. It made such an impression on me when I first read it. Such a complex character.
I think the movie would have a lot to learn from the character Celie in the Color Purple. She was a great example of a gentle, introverted character that has a great character arch and learns to stand up for herself, but still doesn’t change who she is as a person.
I love the 1995 BBC version of Persuasion. I like how the portray Anne, she is quiet, so subltely intelligent and everyone takes advantage of her and she learns to stand up for herself like on the book
It was such a dumpster fire from Netflix, whose productions have spiraled out of control to the point they seem to be throwing garbage at the wall to see what sticks.
The bathtub immersion scene! I've wasted too many precious moments wondering HOW this became a thing we see over and over again. Surely there are more innovative ways to show a character feels trapped in a situation/can't express themselves.
My cousin and I were talking about Jane Austen. My cousin said she didn't like her stories because she thought her characters were boring. I said I LOVED Jane Austen because the shy, unassuming, humble characters ...are the ones that got happiest endings. It's the best part for me because those characters are the exact ones I want to win. When I saw the 2007 version I instantly fell in love with it.
AH YES! we’ve gone so far with the ‘strong woman’ trope that being traditional femininity and soft, meek or gentle is seen as weak. I am a very quiet shy person but it will be a cold day in hell when i let someone walk all over me. meekness is not weakness and i wish we could have more diversity in the strong female lead camp
Game of Thrones did this with Arya and Sansa. Arya was the warrior while Sansa loved the feminine stuff. So interesting how the larger audience (male and female) liked Arya more due to her sword whereas Sansa's arc was more political and in the end she turned out to be a queen. Something not many people touch upon. Martin did a good job with making the sisters opposite.
@@queenb2450 Because Sansa made some really bad decisions and her arc of development was not always on the likeable path. This problem lays on more complex aspects not merely on the feminin-masculin thropes.
@@Girl95szia nah I think judging her when she was a 12/13 year old girl (imagine us as 13 year olds) and wanting the Prince Charming - Joffrey- which people are dumb and don’t understand that’s how girls are when they’re that age??! They want Prince Charming. Due to that, she made her bad decisions because she was young - again we all do- but no one saw past that and forever marked her as wrong….while we all love Jamie Lannister even though he’s don’t way worse than Sansa as a GROWN ADULT. I think the hypocrisy is interesting
When you're so obsessed about making a "strong female character" that you turn her into a horrible monster of a person, you've gone too far. Hollywood needs to learn that lesson.
@@joshuarichardson6529 well, Hollywood is made up of a lot of different people with different perspectives. They all can’t think like the diverse group of people who consume their art.
Ha! If only Hollywood would dislike shy, observant & introverted people then life would be easy. But why do real people think its is a weakness & only losers can behave like that?! 😭 I'm always lost for words when people treat me like that. Yes, I've learned to write my opinion on the internet. But it's still so hard to speak my mind in front of others. Guess what, I have to read this book. Maybe it'll help me a little!!
Same frustrates me in case of male characters. Why do male characters always have to be buff, rugged, expert in fighting ten at a time and have sexual confidence of Zeus level in order to be an awesome male character???!!
What gives me hope is that I’ve been seen more and more women, from very different backgrounds/interests (film criticism, series, gender topics, historical recreation) discussing this. It’s reassuring to see that people are getting fed up with this BSc and its worst version, i.e., “strong women=hypermasculine woman” (hypermasculine in the most toxic way)
I don’t think these women can be called masculine. They’re all the same cookie cutter bland “quirky” but if they were masculine at least they would be interesting because they would be different
I mean as a masculine woman I wouldn't call them to be hypermasculine (masc women are almost never represented as they are not attractive to the male gaze). They almost always still look conventionally attractive and feminine. They just give them all the same sTrOng, independant, no-flaws personality. It's really sad that they are all the same and that writers don't write realistic people that happen to be women.
When I saw the commercial and Anne’s character talking to camera I thought it was a great way of showing the audience her inner monologue. But then they ruin it but having her just saying most of it out loud after just thinking it. Anne in the book was so thoughtful and the movie made her bumbling and outspoken.
You said it so well! A friend once asked me why I love Persuasion so much when Anne is so "boring and shy". Honestly thinking of sending this video to her bc you explained it so well! Me, being a bit Anne like, could not manage to put it into words.
Persuasion is a beautiful story about a woman who finds her voice, defies her family, takes control of her life and gets a second chance to marry the man of her dreams, after all hope of accomplishing these things was lost.
Perfectly said. Here is a passage that provides Anne's impressions after meeting Wentworth again. "They had no conversation together, no intercourse but what the commonest civility required. Once so much to each other! Now nothing! There had been a time, when of all the large party now filling the drawing-room at Uppercross, they would have found it most difficult to cease to speak to one another. With the exception, perhaps, of Admiral and Mrs. Croft, who seemed particularly attached and happy, (Anne could allow no other exception even among the married couples), there could have been no two hearts so open, no tastes so similar, no feelings so in unison, no countenances so beloved. Now they were as strangers; nay, worse than strangers, for they could never become acquainted. It was a perpetual estrangement. "
Exactly, at the end when you mentioned soft spoken or introverted people would appreciate the representation, that's the whole point of this novel. Those of us who list Persuasion as our favorite Jane Austen book it is because of Anne's personality! We can identify with her behavior. I know it's hard to adapt this book but it's pretty dull to have so many identically temperamented female leads of late. Honestly pick a different story to adapt if you can't handle how different these celebrated main characters are!
THANK YOU ! It's a problem I always had with movies, they can"t protray shy, passive characters correctly and as a shy, passive person it's frustrating. You made me want to read the book because it's seems like I could relate to Anne ( something the film never succeed in because she is more confident than me maybe but mostly because she didn't felt real, just like a character )
I've always seen Anne as the unloved, scapegoat daughter of an extremely selfish, snobbish and emotionally abusive father who throughout the novel learns to break free from the traumabond and heal. So if she's self-assured, happy and free from the get-go like it seems that she is in this adaptation, the whole point of the story is lost... I do like the Amanda Roots adaptation even though the ending is a bit much maybe.
I think Ang Lee's Sense and Sensibility directly addresses the "quiet, controlled" character in Elinor vs. the passionate, outspoken Marianne. It's integral to the plot that they wrestle with their personal weaknesses and grow into more balanced characters.
Thank you!!! Just the title of this video alone sums up something I've noticed for years. I am also a quiet, introverted person, and I used to be very shy and socially anxious. Characters like Anne Elliot and Mr. Darcy resonate with a lot of people.
Thank you for this! Persuasion is also my very favorite Jane Austen & I started this new adaptation and could only watch about 10 minutes. Your points on Anne's character and how it develops are so good!
Hollywood needs to stop portraying introverted, shy and kind characters as 'boring' coz these new characters are actually boring.
The same thing over and over. It's so dull.
That's what I liked about "Along for the ride" the female lead was this shy, organized, maybe even a little closed up kind of person but even though she has some great character development throughout the film is not about changing who she is and she remains shy and introverted and organized and some will say boring by the end and I'm all here for it. I truly related and was happy to see a protagonist who not necessarily has to be the life of the party or the most outgoing person. Also the movie was super fun and sweet, you should watch it.
And super annoying, too.
As someone who's both of those in a 'very' way...I agree. It's irritating how we're seen as 'boring' because we don't talk much or because, to the rest of society, we're more likely to have ''boring hobbies/interests''. These are the same people who find it very interesting and ''involving'' when it comes to the lives of some random ass celebrity 'breaking up' or 'divorcing' someone else. They also tho, do the same thing to the 'nerds' and 'geeks'. It's getting old, tiring, and repetitive.
Toxicity is glamorized.
This remainds me of when people said Cinderella wasn't feminist because she was quiet and wanted to treat everyone well no matter what. Like, shy people can be feminist without making cringy girlboss oneliners
In fact, I have seen a few video essays saying it takes great strength of character to maintain her kindness and spirit in those abusive conditions.
Totally agree! Same with Snow White. Very often I have heard how weak, passive and boring she is. But there is a very good video here from "There Will Be Fudd": "Why Snow White Is (Still) the Strongest Disney Princess"!
Today mainstream culture portrays being a feminist as being an immature, spoiled and impolite lil brat. The thing I admire most about classic fairy tales like Snow White and Cinderella is how they manage to overcome human evilness in a non-combative and reactive way, not becoming bitter with the suffering.
@@tessahartman7870 The stereotypically masculine part is particularly upsetting. Masculine choices are fine and don't make anyone less of a woman, but there's this idea I think a lot of us have subconsciously that the only correct way to be a woman is to act more like a man. A boldly feminist choice is to be feminine when you want to be, but also know you have the choice to do whatever you want.
it concerns me with how those ‘girlboss’ things are stereotypically, or at least, traditionally masculine. stoic, strong, does not care about other’s feelings… it kind of says a lot on how being traditionally feminine is still isn’t completely accepted. a rejection of femininity, if you will. give me female characters that stays kind no matter how much the world is against them, or speaks about their feelings!!
"Why do we think that gentle and kind people can't be passionate and interesting?" - THIS! It's as if they view traditionally "feminine" characteristics as being "less than." I adore Anne and Fanny! They actually were a big part of my learning to accept and cherish the gentler and softer side of myself.
Yes! They were always my favorite characters because they were kids and gentle and shy like me. I hardly ever am able to identify with characters in TV, movies or even most books.
I love gentle characters so much! It hurts seeing media tear them down for not being strong enough, not tough enough, not a girlboss.
Even now, when I write an oc that is soft feminine and patient, I get worried what people will think. Then immediately go "fuck that she'll be feminine as fuck."
Eleanor in sense and sensibility is the same way. And they didn't do her dirty and that adaptation, at least the one with Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet.
Skyler Patton, Yes! I remember hating Fanny the first time I read Mansfield Park, but the second time I understood her resilience and gentleness so much more clearly. And Anne has taught me to be more dignified. That's what I love about her.
Feminism is a political stance, so characters can’t be “feminist” just by personality alone, I don’t remember Cinderella standing up for women’s rights. Pure kindness makes for boring, one-dimensional characters anyway.
A huge part of Anne's character arc is realizing that even people she loves don't always truly have her best interests at heart, and she can love them while still acknowledging their flaws. She's a tender, achingly sincere person in an incredibly artificial world, and I hate when adaptations don't get that.
She's quiet, sensible and has fallen into a people pleasing role due to how both society and her family treat her. She used to bring the confidant and problem solver for the Musgroves and annoying pawn / assistant to her own family.
She wants to be useful and is naturally self sacrificing. That's why she could be persuaded to give up Wentworth because she believed it would be better FOR HIM.
This new Dakota Elliot WOULD NEVER have given up Wentworth. If told no, she probably would have stolen the best horse, had it crap on the doorstep / the louge room floor, and ridden off into the sunset making out with Wentworth.
@@kittikats ANNE Elliot
@Mona Bohamad2 oh this new adaptation of her only shares a character name and nothing else, hence why I called them Dakota Elliot.
@@kittikatsxactly..she had a lot of say so ..hair, red lips, mascara, eyeliner, clothing and their colors, personality…yes it most certainly had Dakota Johnson “wants and needs” to accept the role all over it. She wanted to check a period classic Jane Austin adaptation box on her accomplishments. She failed miserably. We will remember her as the worst depiction of Anne Elliot. She is not as wonderful at acting as she try’s to portray. She is always the same in hair style, tone of voice ….ONE DIMENSIONAL …sexual and pretty… even when she puts on her red carpet persona for attention. I would like to see her play a role where she is not made up and hair style, voice was altered to see her true acting chops if she has any. The great actresses can pull off any different unflattering look and still be great at their art. Not just looking the same in every movie or sexual in most in their movies. Playing a 28 year old mature sensible regency women as a snarky, immature with a drinking problem teen was horrendous.
People underestimate how tough you need to be in order to be polite, passive, calm, quiet. There’s strength in those qualities. Knowing when not to, and knowing when to speak up, and doing it with class. All of those things.
True. It is only when you are repressing yourself instead of doing what is best for you that it becomes problematic.
Girl preach! It takes more strength to keep your emotions in check then to just go ape sh*t on every idiot that crosses your path.
This is just sounds like a way of shaming people for speaking up for themselves. We’re expected to be totally cool being shat on constantly and never be upset, or we’re not “classy.” When you’re being hurt, it’s okay to show it.
@@eleanor8652 yeah you really took it wrong. It's knowing when to chose your battles. No one is saying NEVER to speak up for yourself.
@@eleanor8652 Preach! It's ok to be shy, but it's great to stand up for yourself. These two should not be mutually exclusive.
"Can we stop pretending that over-consumption of alcohol is funny?"
yeah. I think obviously there's a time and place for booze related humor, but without a critical eye I think "hehe wine mommy drinks to cope" is kind of a dangerous thing to normalize. it's naturally going to be funny when a character accidentally gets sauced at the formal dinner, but it's not a substitution for writing a personality. if you want a a character to be an alcoholic, I think they should be written with the less fun and quirky aspects of it too.
I have a character who drinks when he's nervous, but very rarely in excess.
He also throws up when he's nervous, but he does that whether he drinks or not.
He gets absolutely plastered at a particularly low point in his life, and almost dies from a mixture of alcohol poisoning, hypothermia, and pneumonia.
After that, even the smell of alcohol makes him nauseous for a long time.
DUDE, YES. When did it become cute for women, moms in particular, to basically be lushes? All that merchandise - "rosé all day", wine o'clock" "mommy's happy juice". I mean, wth? Staying drunk all day, just to make it through, or to be around your children ain't the look.
@@florindalucero3236
All part of the plan to ruin the reputation of diligent housewives.
I love my wine, but yes, being an alcoholic is not a fun quirk. Being in my 30s, I have been reducing my alcohol consumption a bit these past few years, and I still get asked, "why aren't you drinking?" Because sometimes I don't feel like it.
It's similar to women needing 'Prince Valium' every day. It's not comedy, it's a drug addiction.
As a very shy person who usually keeps to herself, Cinderella was my favorite princess growing up. The "feminist" attacks on her (which I especially hate because she's a victim of abuse, and a lot of them are framed as blaming her for it) always felt really personal to me. It's been really refreshing to see the narrative change in the past few years.
I will always love the 2015 one.
You are right on both accounts. I am torn between feeling offended by these critiques and motivated to empower myself. Cinderella had no choice in becoming a traumatized victim, it is true. The problem is with the prince picking her precisely for these traits, not regardless of them (or even to help her become powerful). It gives girls false expectations because men who look for such women (and viceversa) are usually abusive.
@@CandyAndromeda the moral of the movie is NOT to wait for a man like cinderella, but to copy cinderella's kind-hearted and resilient character for good karma to happen. people mistook the message.
Cinderella was a role model of mine when I grew up. I was bullied by other girls at school kind of like Cinderella was bullied by her step-sisters but I chose to remain kind because I refused to fall to their level. I wanted to stay faithful to myself. And the funniest thing? I wasn't even interested in guys at the time. It only came in my 20s and by then, I had fully built my self-esteem on my own. When I see feminists criticize Cinderella, I feel like they are criticising my own life. Like if I was the main character of a tv show, I would have been called weak for not standing up toward my bullies even though it is easier said than done. They would overlook my qualities beacause they are seen as soft and would not see how strong I became by staying kind while led me to find worthy friends and to feel good about myself. Women are diverse and all kinds deserve to be celebrated. Praising one kind of woman is just backward when men decided what a woman should be. Well, feminists should not decide what women should be and give us the freedom to be who we want. So glad to know I am not the only one.
@@CandyAndromeda depends on the version. Where I'm from they first met in the forest where she was hiding from her stepmother and he from his teacher. She pranked him and ran away on a horseback, he ended up being impressed how well she could handle horses.
This version is popular in Norway and some other parts of Europe.
The scene that made me turn off the show was when they had Anne bring up the point about her brother-in-law asking her to marry her before he proposed to her sister -- in front of a dinner party filled with her family and friends. There is absolutely NO WAY book Anne would do such a boorish thing. Embarrass her sister and brother-and-law? Try to make Wentworth jealous at the expense of her family? No, no, no. It turned her into a petty, conniving, nasty character, which is NOT Anne from the book.
And it was so unnecessary, too, cause a scene later we overhear Louisa relaying that same info to Wentworth, so there was literally no need to have Anne expose herself like that. If they had cut the Louisa-scene and still needed to pack the info in somehow for viewers who are unfamiliar with the book, it would have been a poor choice, but at least there’d have been some sort of sense to it. But like this ….
That one I did not like either. It seemed like a response to them considering her an undesirable spinster, so I guess she had her reasons.
Oh my god!! I stopped it at the exact same moment! It make me cringe so hard 😭 Anne would've never brought that up
I made myself watch it twice. The first time I couldn't even watch it all without fastforwarding. The second time I made myself not fastforward, thinking maybe I'm just missing the parts that make it all make sense, but nope it never made sense it was "What?? Why??" the entire time.
A few minutes after that part, Mary made a snide comment about Anne (maybe when she was playing the piano and everyone else was dancing?), and I just thought that Mary's b*tchiness was completely warranted because of that comment at the dinner before. I didn't have any sympathy for Anne at all.
Haven’t you heard? Modern female characters aren’t allowed to have flaws and arcs - they’re 100% perfect girlboss bad bitch all the time and you’re misogynist if you hate it.
My main female character learns to stand up for herself and not be a people pleaser WITHOUT losing her gentle and sensitive nature.
Her sensitivity is even praised.
which is especially ironic considering that needing women to have traditionally masculine traits in order to be worthy of admiration is pretty inherently misogynistic lol
@@etheric_dissonance
And being a pretentious bully isn't even an inherently masculine trait. I don't care what anyone says.
This
it's SOO BORING
I feel like having a gentle/shy character is frowned upon in today’s society because you’re only taken seriously if you’re loud and assertive. That’s probably why they avoided to portray Ann as such, which is why I’m wondering why they even bothered adapting this particular story.
Adapting stories with major elements they clearly "dislike" is my biggest pet peeve with Western media production companies in a nutshell. Ignoring great, modern stories with content in line with their vision to bastardize beloved classic that aren't is where we are today. WHY?
People forget that interesting characters are made of complex personalities and/or charismatic traitSSSSS.
Word. Anne was quiet and a bit meek, but she wasn’t a complete doormat… she stood up to her father when she wanted to see her friend instead of the wealthy relatives (when it’s something she really cares about) that would’ve taken fortitude in the time when you’re supposed to obey your father
What movies say society wants is different from what society actually wants (caveat being society isn't an exact monolith and contradicts itself about what it wants from practically everyone all the time). Movies celebrate loud, assertive female protagonists, but I sometimes resent those movies because I know if I acted the way those characters act, I'd be in big trouble. And also note I said protagonists, not characters. You can easily make "loud and assertive" into negative traits as long as they're held by a meant-to-be-disliked character.
Exactly like go adapt sth else
I think to this day, one of my favourite representations of a softer, more gentle protagonist is Sophie Hatter from Howl’s Moving Castle (the film adaptation, she’s very different but still just as lovely in the book). The film is set in a fictional world, but you can tell it draws inspiration from period pieces and visuals. One of the things I like most about Sophie (or most of Hayao Miyazaki’s female lead characters) is how her growth becomes evident and she matures but not at the cost of her softness, femininity or more quiet and nurturing side. It’s something very rare but always inspiring to see. Naturally, I can’t speak for everyone but if you’re used to this sort of “suppression of softness” that is common in western or Hollywood movies it’s a very nice chance of pace :)
I love how often Ghibli female leads will learn to gain confidence in themselves and that traits they already possessed are what is needed to end up resolving the conflict in the story, like in Laputa, Sheeta’s kindness never faded despite all the awful things that happen to her and Patsu in the story
That's why I really love and admire the female leads in Ghibli movies
Agree 100%!
pfp checks out lol
I agree btw
I immediately thought of Ghibli films as well! They are so full of gentle characters (or actually passionate characters who learn to be more gentle instead of the other way around), who grow without loosing themselves.
my most favourite gentle character has been and will always be ‘miss honey’ from matilda. if people don’t think she’s an interesting and passionate character worth adventuring, i just can’t talk to you.
I love Miss Honey too! She’s so kind and sweet, especially to Matilda.
What a great example! 🍯 Softly spoken, compassionate, fiercely protective.
ugh i loved her so much !
@iKandy Not really
@@marsisbae Yes, really. Media very much glorify the Trunchbull and sneer at the Honey.
Oddly enough for me the underrepresentation and the frowning up on gentle female characters is misogynistic in itself. Softness is a stereotypically womanly characteristic, and implying that a main female character is only worthy of screen time if it gains stereotypically male characteristics like being outspoken and confident is kinda shitty. I am well aware of the fact that for a very long time female characters in cinematography were just portrayed as a weak side kick for a male protagonist, but I think we're past that. Women and men carry all kinds of characteristics within themselves, both of them can have developing arcs, they can go from tough to soft, and from soft to tough. They can be shy and they can be confident regardless of their gender.
Saying that softness and gentleness are 'stereotypically' womanly, but then saying it's mysoginistic that a stereotype is frowned upon, is what's mysoginistic.
Why is it uncouth to hate a fraying-at-the-ends stereotype?
Unless you see the stereotype as true, the idea that gentleness and softness are inherently (falsely) womanly.
Softness all the time and shyness all the time or most of the time ARE NOT GOOD THINGS. They shouldn't be glamorised or excused. It's also an idea of woman that has been so overplayed, the film has burned itself on the reel.
This persuasion lady made me so fuckin irritated. If book Anne is EVEN SHYER than her, Anne needs therapy holy shit.
She was not shy, had a very tough character and followed her conviction (in the book) . She was just quiet.
@@hopesy12u4 disagree. The trope that's played out is women are only recognized as worthwhile or as a heroine if they are suddenly slinging bows and arrows or fighting or putting men in their place and not wanting to get married or something. It's been so over played for the last 20 years I want to gag
Not all sexism is misogyny. This word is way overused.
@@hopesy12u4 No one ever claimed Anne was "always ((only)) soft and shy", have you even watched the video where Karolina explained exactly that? Please just read the book before commenting on what you think her character might be like. Although, judging by your comment, empathy and gentleness might not be your strongest suit.
I'm a girl who does sword martial arts stuff, and it irritates me to no end that somehow a woman has to be capable of violence or else she's "weak." That's absolutely insane.
My character who enjoys boxing is actually one of the most mellow and gentle of the cast.
I swear when Hollywood heard “strong female character” they took it too literally and never looked back
@@DeathnoteBB
The woman in my book with the most mental fortitude is a pacifistic nurse with noodle arms who always has to ask somebody to help her lift something.
And a major part of her development is admitting when she feels timid and afraid, and realising nobody worthwhile respects her any less for it.
Same frustrates me in case of male characters. Why do male characters always have to be buff, muscled, expert in fighting ten at a single time and have confidence of Zeus level in order to be an awesome male character???!!
The hyper-competent, violent, emotionless robot female character trope is so tired. Not everyone has to be Charlize Theron. She's great, but there are other shades to the female psyche
This is one of my favorite things about Austen as an author. For as long ago as she lived, she had a very well-rounded idea of what it meant to really be a "feminist."
Elizabeth, Emma, Marianne, Fanny, Catherine, and Anne are all very different women, with very different flaws and shortcomings. Some are more well-rounded than others, and many of them would have not gotten along with the other protagonists. But, Austen sought to portray womanhood in all of its forms, not trying to claim that there was any one perfect way for a woman to behave.
Women come in many forms and they are all valid. Feminism is not about teaching women to behave a certain way. It's about teaching the people around them to accept women for the people they truly are, whether that's outgoing and boisterous, like an Emma or Marianne, or quiet and sweet, like a Catherine or Anne.
Shakespeare was writing about varied female characters long before Austen, the outspoken Beatrice from Much Ado About Nothing or the villainous Lady Macbeth. And before him Chaucer was writing about the Wife of Bath.
@@unapologeticanti-feminist3205 I was literally about to respond, but then I read your channel name. Almost got me. Lolol. Have a good day, friend, hope life's treating you well!
@@erinw4935 yes because feminism must never be questioned, that's a healthy way of thinking, as is not talking to anyone who has a different view than yours...
@@unapologeticanti-feminist3205 You're not very good at reading between the lines are you? Actually scratch that, it looks like you didn't even read the actual lines of the first comment.
@@unapologeticanti-feminist3205 she did not say Austen was the only one... And i'm pretty sure there are not only 3 people in history who wrote varied women... (Many women wrote interesting varied women before shakespeare and Chaucer but I find it interesting you would need to man-one-up the comment about Austen by saying dudes did something first, which they did not really do btw, it's usually the other way around...)
One of the things I love about the 1995 film is that it allowed Anne to be quiet. All of her and Wentworth's emotions were in their eyes. They played that longing so well.
The first time I watched it I didn't even know what was going on until he helped her up onto the coach after the long walk, with the close up on his hand on her back and how completely torn up that understated moment made them both and I got that Pulp Fiction shot to the heart of Romance! Seriously one of the most erotic moments in a movie for me
The scene where they meet for the first time and all you see is Anne's hand grabbing the chair. Perfection.
I absolutely love that film. Everyone played their characters so well. Amanda Root plays her as the epitome of someone who gets led along by others who make loads of assumptions about her and she deals with it with poise and grace. So much can be learned from her.
That is one of my all time favorites. I also love the simple piano soundtrack. Amanda Root was perfection as Anne
I understand the dislike book lovers have towards this Persuasion. But for me, who hasn't read the story, the 95 version is a mystery. I did NOT get her emotion at all. Most of the other adaptations are the same. A person below felt that "tension" but for me Anne just perpetually looked like deer in headlights trying not to have panic attacks. I felt the sense of nervous anxiety, but I was clearly missing the key internal struggles Anne was facing because I had not read the book. This newer version, while definitely flawed, was able to help me understand where Anne was emotionally. I didn't mind the more modern perspective because I felt it was...stylized in way that made it more of a choice vs. simply not getting it. Of course I understand how people may disagree with that choice. I'd like a version that meets somewhere in the middle. Although, to be fair, Jane Austen was a big fan of snark and highlighting society and its contradictions, so I didn't mind the touch of snark or feelings of...fatigue Anne felt by her family and general position in life. I am making an effort to read the book to compare and contrast, but in my comparison of all the films I feel like the new version hit most of the points the other films did, they just took a more modern approach with dialogue and bringing you into Anne's emotional state. For me the 95 film (the best of the other adaptations) was so quiet and she was so meek looking/sounding/behaving I struggled to meet Anne where she was emotionally, so for a film translating a book I think it missed the emotional mark when bringing the Audience into Anne's emotional state. You'd have to already know to really understand.
"Can we stop pretenting that over-drinking characters are funny?"
Thank you Karolina for saying this! As ACoA (Adult Child of Alcocholic) Im fucking tired of seeing how society thinks its funny, quirky or cool to see someone drunk or how this person ruin others lives only because they love alcochol more than their signifant people. Especially im tired of this culture in Poland, our Mother country, which have very high rating of Alcocholism and Domestic Abuse that is connected with Alcocholism(Most of Alcocholics abuse their spouses or kids, if they try to help with this addiction or if they dare to "bother")
Like really, we need to end this culture! Its actually harmful
My parents were children of alcoholics and it’s really embedded in our culture of how alcoholic is seen as a gateway to dissociative performance in social settings.
I don’t drink, and I feel like most people think that’s super weird. I’ve even had people get weirdly defensive and be like “oh, so you think you’re better then me?” when all I’ve said is I don’t drink, if I’m offered one. For one I’ve been on antidepressants since I was a teenager, and also I don’t want to use alcohol to mask my problems with depression and anxiety, which I’m afraid I would do if I started drinking. So it’s easier for me to just abstain. I wish people didn’t act like it’s so weird to be an adult who doesn’t want to drink, at least here in the U.S.
@@jessica_jam4386 In Poland, you gonna get ridiculed Until they get bored because you dont drink.
And I hope you are doing Well. Good luck with your journey
Same applies pretty much to Germany as well; our whole country has a severe alcohol problem and no one really talks or reflects about it, it‘s always just „MOAR BEER! hurR DuRr!“ 🙄
@@D0MiN0ChAn I really understand your problem with that
You want to join for Revolution to destroy this culture?
it really hurts because as someone for a long time felt like a wallflower, the quiet gentleness of anne really spoke to me. gentle characters need their representation desperately and its awful they made anne just another lizzie bennett clone.
I agree. Recently, I found myself not relating to any of these female characters in mass media that people look up to. Sometimes, I ask myself if I am the weird one for wanting to be quiet and gentle. The whole world is already so loud as it is.
Lizzy would never of acted like Anne. She understood society and she knew what was expected if her.
I fully agree although Elizabeth Bennet knows how to behave ! Anne Elliot should have been more like Charlotte Lucas...and Dakota Johnson is just too pretty to be relatable. Someone like Sarah Snook with a more unconventional look would have been so much better.
lizzie Bennet is a delightful character-and was never rude. Seems like they just made Lara Croft Tomb Raider!
Your Anne sounds like a clone of nearly every female protagonist pre-2010. Or did you forget how unbearably common they were. Anf they're still the most common flower of a trope given to women characters. Like fuck, they were coming out of my nose, ears, eyes and ass growing up.
Im glad for the girlboss era, too bad too many girlboss characters are shittily written. Katniss everdeen is a good example of a girlboss, strong and gentle (you know, like a real life person).
I just hate helpless cowardice in characters. Which you know, was the hallmark of most women chatacters for too fucking long.
I feel like Jane from pride and prejudice is a good example of a gentle quiet character in the movie adaptation. She’s overly nice to a fault, and she’s sweet and kind, but she gets her heart broken and you can feel still feel her pain, even when she’s not like wailing and screaming about it.
But she's allowed to be sweet and gentle because she's not the main character; filmmakers often consider it okay to have the best friend or the Sister be a damsel if the MC is assertive because her defense of the weaker friend only makes her look better.
Its fine in P&P, because Lizzy really is a good person and she's still worth rooting for even without her being as meek as her sister.
It becomes toxic when pushed into other narratives by the same author. For example, in Mansfield Park's case, some readers glorified one scene in which Mary Crawford (pretty damn lightly) defended Fanny from the others during the incident of the play, and set their expectations that Mary would become the "lead" and got mad at Fanny for not wanting to be her best friend. The assertive girl doesn't have to rescue the non-assertive girl to make her valid.
I think nowadays people have just started to realize that looking down on women that like to appear traditionally feminine or "girly" is misogynistic, like the "I'm not like other girls" trope does, the next step is understanding that also looking down on soft and gentle people is equally misogynistic. Let people be! what a boring world if we all were the same
No, that habit of media producers looking down on traditionally feminine women has been around since the 1990s and commented upon.
Girlboss -> Adequate woman
Gentle -> brainwashed by patriarchy into submissive tendencies
Polite -> brainwashed by patriarchy into submissive tendencies
Content with her life -> brainwashed by patriarchy into submissive tendencies
Obnoxious douche -> Proper Sigma male
Gentle -> Low testosterone, beta male cuck
Polite -> Low testosterone, beta male cuck
Content with his life -> Low testosterone, beta male cuck
That’s what they did to Padme when she was the one of few in the voice of reason of seeing the republic becoming the Empire😢😢
@@Lawofimprobability that does not conflict with their point though at all
Exactly! And the whole point is she quietly lived her life, and in the end it was the final jab at all the people who looked down on her. Without her even needing to say anything. She was the hero for us more reserved women.
Hollywood only likes gentle, shy, introverts if the only shred of character development they’re allowed to have is that they stop being that way (usually to make a boy/girl like them) and become a loudly confident, outspoken social butterfly at the end. Like why can’t someone just be shy and quiet? It’s been proven time and time again in literature that you don’t have to be extroverted to be interesting so there has to be a director/writer/producer who has the creative capabilities to translate that into a show or movie.
Right? Good point. I’m reminded of the lovely character, Sandy in the movie Grease. At the end she’s made over into a stereotypical slut and it’s treated as some sort of victory or triumph, as if she could only be interesting dressed in black spandex, stiletto heels, and gobs of makeup, even those things have nothing at all to do with her true character. It would have been a triumph if everyone else could have evolved enough to love and respect her just as she was.
Part of the reason why my introverted shy autistic self always thought I had to/would "flourish" into social butterfly when I was older, were the movies making this trope. Surprise surprise, I'm still pretty shy, extremely introverted even more than before and well of course, autistic. It would have been nice to see shy characters thrive once in a while.
It has to do with extraverted American cultures, whenever average Americans encounter people from different cultures and act not as outrageously extroverted as them or overly friendly and loud, they will feel uncomfortable and think u have autism, i have served american armies in hotel and they whispered about me that i might be autistic because i seem quiet and uninitiative, even they assume that many Germans are autistics because they are not overly fake friendly to anyone
Thatb is why NORMAL PEOPLE are loved so much. We need more stuff like that.
Funnily enough, I tried this transformation in middle and high school. Very interesting experimentation that gave mixed positive and negative effects.
Being loud and outwardly confident has its perks, but it is completely draining. Being quiet, people think AND act as if they can walk all over you.
Now I'm both (and neither), and that's much more preferable. I still prefer to be myself, but will voice out my thoughts as necessary.
i think this has a lot to do with western society at large viewing introverted/shy/sensitive people (however you want to put it) as inherently defective and boring
YUP
I’m quiet extroverted, but from my point of view being a strong person means being able to stand up for yourself and what you believe in. Everything else doesn’t really matter.
Introverts are considered "freaks" and loves extroverts.
Honestly.. I notice all the time people think I'm stupid and a pushover just cuz I'm very quiet and nice. It's a really annoying stereotype..
As an introvert I have felt this intensely in my life
I’m an outgoing extrovert, but it’s tiresome to see the same female characters over and over - especially since it’s done is such a cringe-worthy manner. I’ve always loved Austen’s Anne! Women come in all personalities - that’s what makes life interesting and realistic
4:39
It may just be a minor thing but "she doesn't care if her dress gets a little dirty" really hits different when they don't have a washing machine. Unless Anne washes her own clothes, it'd actually be kinder to be a bit more thoughtful and don't get your clothes needlessly dirty because at the end of the day you know that there has to be someone there who needs to clean them by hand.
Its fine cause she got servants to wash them for her
That’s a great point.
Saw someone call Netflix’s Anne a “manic pixie dream spinster” and I just can’t stop thinking about it
Hah that's perfection 👌
"manic pixie dream spinster" 🤣🤣🤣
Yup. That’s perfect
Yes, surely Netflix’s Anne, not Austin’s.
Your correct
This movie just treats its audience like we're stupid. Like we're too stupid to know if they're actually wearing period accurate clothing or not, we're too stupid to understand the characters if they talk differently than we do now, we're too stupid to apprechiate Anne as a gentle and quiet character. It's just so infantalizing.
to be fair, audiences have been lapping up stupidity for a long time. forking out dollars for the worst of music and entertainment. they wouldn't do this unless we paid for it. people need to start putting their foot down now.
Too stupid to not know that britain hadn't even abolished slavery during the time the show is set so casting black people as aristocracy is mind-blowing out of place
I'd say 99% of viewers have no idea about period accurate clothing. It's not something anyone learns about unless they study the subject out of private interest or study the subject in university.
That's basically every movie these days, period drama or not. Condescending to the core.
Funny thing but they often consider it "growth" when a character goes from being soft and kind to being fierce and snarky and showing no emotions. I grew the other way around. I'm still me so very attached to my peace and quiet and independance, but I grew to accept my soft side, take care of people around me and appreciate comfort and quietness to a degree. I went from their view of a strong character to actual human being with different personnality traits lol
I agree, it's both ways interesting and awesome to see a gentle person learning to speak for itself and to journey of an overly confident and impulsive person to a more gentle, caring and thoughtful one. I think what captivate us it's to see the amount of effort, the learning process and the control of emotions.
This is why Constance (Ingrid Bergman) from Alfred Hitchcock's Spellbound is one of my favorite movie characters. She starts out as very hard and 'professional' as a psychiatrist, but actually learns that connecting with her emotions and intuition is a strength, not a weakness. It is also a very unusual movie, even by today's standards, because it has a male character (young Gregory Peck) in the 'damsel in distress' role.
I think a Persuasion adaptation by a director from a culture that historically values Anne's characteristics (Japan i.e) would be really interesting. I think such a director would tell Anne's story with the respect and admiration it deserves
Hollywood is super terrified of being "boring." They think because people like smart phones and video games, that you can't let a scene or a character breathe for a moment. There's this BEAUTIFUL shot in Christopher Robin (2018) of the tree that Pooh lives in and the film let it sit for a moment the way you would if you saw it in real life, which made me realize movies don't do that any longer. We used to get these pauses like you got in the real world such as in Stand By Me and Close Encounters of The Third Kind, where important plot stuff wasn't happening for a minute, just to let you think about what is going on. Now it has to be like D-Day every single second, which takes away the ability of characters and plots to naturally establish themselves, and for the audience to decide if they relate.
Hollywood also just can't picture a gentle, delicate mouse of a woman being feminist enough- in spite of the fact that Persuasion is an incredibly feminist work about a woman coming to understand her own worth and power WITHOUT a man before she commits to a mature love that isn't caught up in stereotypes and gender norms, but is instead about respecting each other and holding each other up. The whole POINT of their separation is that neither of them was mature enough to respect the other at the same time they were respecting their own selves. It's not about her being a boss bitch that he couldn't handle because machismo, it's about them working out their flaws before they try to approach each other again!
This here is why I like anime, or Japanese cinema in general. These pauses, these chances to think, are much more ingrained within their culture than ours, to the point where a great deal of their art revolves around it. It's why so many shots, even in modern anime, are of things going on in the background rather than the characters themselves. I hate how modern Hollywood never gives us a chance to slow down.
Hence why I love Asian (particularly Japanese) cinema. Films like Our Little sister or the Hana and Alice films or Kiki's Delivery Service or Little Forest or Moonlit Winter (which is a sort of modern version of Persuasion in the sense that it is about two quiet, gentle people who are persuaded against each other, until chance brings them together years later) are all willing to slow down and let the audience just soak in the moment. They're all female-led, carefully observed movies, and even if the characters are very extroverted (Alice from the Hana and Alice duology is particularly outgoing), the films allow the characters to be vulnerable. The only recent American movie I can think of that is at all like this is Paterson with Adam Driver and Golshifteh Farahani.
@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1 this!!!
@@vioveo7440 Looks like we were writing the same thing at the same time. :D
So true and I love to see the love for Christopher Robin! So underrated
It's so sad because Anne's quiet strength IS WHY FREDERICK LOVED HER. It's why he was able to forgive her after all those years. Anne is completely relatable. She's overlooked, underappreciated, kind, not the prettiest girl, can't really stand up for herself, but she's always trying hard and willing to help anyone she cares for no matter what it takes, and Frederick loves everything about her, and that was why she loves him. So changing her character was bound to ultimately make the romance suffer, and with the romance a mess, the whole movie doesn't work. I can forgive the bad costuming, the change in tone, the modern language, but without the lead characters and their romance making sense and following the book, there is no Persuasion.
I think of her as a kind of female equivalent of Colonel Brandon.
Anne would piss me off in real life. This level of shyness has to be pathological.
@@hopesy12u4 That level of shyness is normal for some people, and book Anne's character is much more realistic than movie Anne's
Quiet strenght 😂
Exactly how I feel! Well said.
There are two shy/gentle (but internally fierce) period characters that I think have been adapted really well and shown this, the first is Eleanor in Sense and Sensibility, the one played by Emma Thompson; the absolute epitome of quiet strength and passionate yearning, I cry when she cries at the end Hugh Grant finally confesses his love for her, the way the feelings burst out of her is some of the most incredible acting. The second is Scarlett Johansson in Girl With the Pearl Earring, in the book she's constantly talking because we're in her head, whereas in the film she barely says anything, her intelligence shows in all her looks and subtleties, you can see the cogs whirring away, and the sexual tension between her and Firth is palpable though they don't even touch.
I love how us ladies are coming together to rip this apart, lol. I find Anne to be so relatable, as well as something to aspire to with how capable, intelligent, and calm she is... but with this "modernized" version, not so much. Even Beverly Hills-set Clueless was able to remain true to the essence of Emma Woodhouse.
As a pretty introverted guy, it is also nice to see women push back against the "introverted just means shy" stereotype.
"I wanted to write a character with realistic flaws"
//writes a completely deplorable human being
They always do that. So many characters who aren't even supposed to come across as flawed but instead near-perfect regarding the "Are they a good person?" question are often pretty bad and meant to be flawed characters are often just horrible. Most of them are also dangerous criminals. ("Accidental rapists" - And I am not talking about purely statutory rape cases.)
Fry from Futurama is what I would call a flawed character who only has one or two things about him that go too far but are excusable.
@@camelopardalis84
My main character is named Michael.
He is a bit timid yet hard-headed because of his smothering and well-meaning yet neglectful father who didn't prepare him for the real world. He doesn't handle stress very well in the beginning and is prone to making rash, even unpredictable decisions.
He is large and physically imposing and likes boxing, is a bit assertive, but not domineering, and is very gentle and charitable. He adores his family and has a great sense of duty, but at the beginning is misguided and insecure.
Some women take a liking to him because though he is not conventionally attractive by 1880s upper class standards (not ugly. Just "eh"), he appears to be a brooding and mysterious Byronic hero.
In reality, he's just shy and has RBF. He's not good at talking to girls, and his long treks into the woods merely come from a genuine love of nature, in a practical and not romantic sense.
They making Hannibal Lector actually look civilised 🤣
@@camelopardalis84 You're completely right! And they do this even when it completely ruins the moral and meaning. My best/worst example of this is Sir Gawain - in Gawain & the Green Knight, he's a renowned, valiant, sharply self-critical knight doing his absolute best. He is as close to the Ideal Knight as it is possible for a human to be. And he STILL MESSES UP.
That's the whole *point* of the story! That no matter how good you are, no matter how hard you try, you are human and you will, at some point, fail. But this does not condemn you, nor is it a reason to STOP trying.
But for all of that, it relies on two things: first of all, steel-manning the character. He has to be shown to be a earnestly good and true knight, or it's just a idiot being an idiot. And second of all, Gawain must have been trying in the first place. In the original tale, he's trying so hard all of the time that it becomes painful the moment you see him accept the girdle. Becuase you KNOW he isn't going to forgive himself for that; because you sympathize with this poor half-starved knight who traded his life for his king's.
That's the other important part, I think. It always gets left out, but he accepted the challenge, not to prove himself or becuase it was there, but because Arthur accepted first. He didn't have to request the challenge be given to him, he had every reason not to.
The film removes all of this nonesense like 'themes' and 'sympathetic characters' and 'really, really top-notch characterization (and angst)' to give you.... Angsty Boy With Issues Learns Truth Is Important: This One's Medieval!
....I may care too much about this. Just a slim chance.
@@sciranger6703
My character has to figure out whether or not it was morally okay to beat up a (suspected) kiddie toucher and bring the wrath of the corrupt magistrate down on his employer's household because the dude was his nephew.
He never comes up with a definitive answer.
Ok as someone who was in the drama theatre world for a long time, I’ll tell you right now that it is dominated by extroverts. Especially actors, but also directors and people in drama in general. I believe this influences how they portray and shape characters a lot - because the culture of drama is so extroverted, they can’t conceive or understand how an introverted heroine could be interesting, relatable, beautiful. It’s a huge disservice to the industry and the stories they tell, and especially to Persuasion and Anne Eliot.
YES, exactly what I thought about!
Kind of related but, I've always thought about the music industry, 'they need to get those extraverts out of there,' because the songs they write are always so shallow and ridiculous.
This is why I hated doing drama so much at high school, it was an arts school so didn't have a choice in the matter and I hated every second of it
Omg thank you for saying this. I went to a posh drama school in London, and many of my peers never took me seriously. This was because I was "too nice" and not willing to step on others to get what I wanted. You shouldn't have to knock others down to make yourself higher. You are absolutely right! The acting world is hugely represented by boisterous extroverts.
And the need for in-your-face type conflict in every scene. It doesn't have to be aggressive, overpowering but gets written and played that way.
I have indeed slid into my bathtub like that because dramatic is my aesthetic, but maybe that's just me...
One of the most bizarre things in this movie, and there were many, was how they left Anne depressed and pining for Wentworth, but didn't really give her anything to be depressed about other than pining for Wentworth. In the novel, she is almost completely isolated; none of her family members like her all that much, her only ally is Lady Russell, and then later (kind of) her childhood friend. In the movie, she seems like her life is relatively good, she's confident, has a fun Auntie relationship with her nephews, has a fun relationship with her sisters-in-law, she doesn't seem to be too bothered about her situation. I feel like part of the reason Novel Anne pinned for Wentworth for so long was because Wentworth was the best thing to happen to her, he made her feel wanted for the first, and last, time. To me, the character of Movie Anne would have gotten over Wenthworth, she seems more strong willed and confident.
You captured it perfectly. Like with a situation like this a character like the "new ann" would not excist. No one would be able to be this confident living under such circumstance. With her strong willed persona she would not accept her situation and stay kind and supportive of everyone around them.
As a shy girl with years of meh friends, who fell for my first boyfriend because he showed me my worth, yes, the book sounds like it makes way more sense. Feeling wanted is important.
I think genuinely many writers can't write gentle characters because our society (particularly in the US) so heavily relies on social and physical agression for problem solving. Gentleness is not prioritized in our culture and passivity is seen as an anethma to good storytelling. It's kind of a shame.
This work only could work it, if they would have translet this story to our modern times. Why they don't do that? They did the same with Bride and Prejudice. Not only this story doesn't work because the director didn't understand Jane Austen's characters, but also seems not very historical accuarte. Using modern ideas in a society that its probably didn't have it.
Desperately need period dramas to be made by filmmakers who actually LIKE period dramas. There's such a palpable distain for them throughout this film.
The one behind Mansfield Park 1999 adaptation actually admitted not being interested in the story and protagonist so she just made up stuff. I don't get why take the job at all then. Pretty disrespectful and arrogant to think you can just rewrite a classic and make it about something else entirely.
Sometimes it feels almost as if the people making the show HATE the period they’re working in, and want to convince the audience how much better modernity is through the work… even though that’s the opposite of the point of the show. This is especially prevalent in bridgerton, which takes so many (poorly developed) shots at regency life and is so aggressively modernized that it makes you confused as to why they even made the show, when it’s clear how ugly and evil the think the time and place was. Like is it revenge of something?
@@mdgsk824 thank you! Too many people praise her for her crap film which spat on its source material. Also, whoever cast Frances O'Connor as Fanny when they literally had Molly Gibson (Justine Waddell) on set and she would have been PERFECT, needs slapped. Sophia Myles as Susan and Johnny Lee Miller as Edmund were good though. Their Henry was too handsome; he's supposed to be plain and short.
I hate when people adapt books they admitted in the past they don't like. That's why I'm a little afraid of Andrew Davies ever doing a Mansfield Park adaptation. On the one hand I LOVE his Wives and Daughters (and Pride and Prejudice, of course) and to be fair he did a good job on Sense and Sensibility while trash talking poor Edward Ferrars and Colonel Brandon and calling them bad characters (what a butthead), but if we get a repeat of 1999 because Davies decides Fanny isn't "good" or "feminist" enough it'll break my heart.
Give his kind of crap version of Anne De bourgh in P&P, I don't trust him with quiet sickly characters...
Getting back to the 1999 director, she's also a freaking pervert, she only wanted to do the film so she could add scenes of Mary and Fanny being touchy-feelly.
@@TenderNoodle Bridgerton is just pretty-looking chronological snobbery.
That's a common trend right? Star Wars writers hating original SW, Star Trek writers hating original ST, Witcher writers hating Witcher novels...
As I said before, everyone seems to need to be a genius now. All ego, no humility. Just try to get a good new page into that long history, don't 'revolutionize' everything with your 'genius' 'reinterpretation' for 'modern audiences'. A classic doesn't need revolution, it needs evolution and continuity. There's a reason it's a freaking classic in the first place. We don't need your reinterpretation, leave the interpreting to the audience. And audiences are not modern or antique, they're just human beings absorbing stories as we have been since the dawn of time.
Absolutely. I thought we were past the trend of turning a goody two shoes character into a edgy borderline sociopathic one to make them more "interesting". It's so 2010s.
The thing is, most people want to see this uu. You can see this in everyday media. The quirky charakters, as fucked up as they sometimes are, are still the all time favorites xx.
@@mlem6951 which is dumb af tbh, at least in my opinion
@@CuntyMisanthrope Yep, fully agree uu
I never liked that trend.
"borderline sociopathic"
People reall love to throw these terms around, huh
As someone who HEAVILY relates to Cinderella I often felt that I wasn’t good enough because everyone would diss her and bash her down. It’s so frustrating that Hollywood is so desperate and determined to continue to keep beating woman down.
My favorite Persuasion adaptation is the one from 1995. It was basically perfect! Anne was passive and learned how to speak up for herself. It was portrayed so well and the longing was impeccable. If anyone wants to watch a good Persuasion, that’s the one!
I couldn’t agree more and I think Ciaran Hinds was the perfect Frederick even if he was a bit older than he should have been .. my goodness he’s handsome!
Yes agree, that version is nearly perfect to me
I was hoping someone recommended this. It's arguably my favorite Austen adaptation of all time. Really perfection.
Yes the scene when he hurriedly wrote the note for Anne after eavesdropping on her conversation with one of his friends(Harville?, I forget)... was just *chefs kiss
Did any of you see Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day with Ciara’s Hinds? What did you think of that?
Campaign - STOP trying to turn the wise, gentle and noble Anne Eliot to the foolish and self centered Emma Woodhouse.
But this Anne would still fall far short of Classic Emma Woodhouse, who spends the entire story stumbling along and slowly realizing how foolish she is, learning humility and what the limits of her influence should be in the choices of others. A character who doesn't develop or learn anything is not worth watching/reading.
Let good, moral Anne be herself! Let her silence tell the great story of her heart.
Let these 'modernized' female characters fall away as forgettable flavors of the month, and be no reflection of real females in any time period.
I dont think Emma is foolish. She's just had her own way too much,and she is so rich she doesnt need to employ her intelligence.
She’s more Mrs. Elton than Emma.
@@manicpixiefangirl4189 boom! So true! Lol
Friendly reminder to go watch the 1995 version of Persuasion. Now THAT is an underrated gem that deserves a Criterion remaster. Everyone did their homework and not just understood the source material to a T, but elevated them. The screenplay is amazing, the characters are so nuanced that it makes the pivotal moments hit even harder,. The cinematography and direction is fantastic and the music is sublime. It doesn't hold your hand and treats the audience like adults who actually use their brains and understand subtlety and nuance. Please, please PLEASE I beg those who have not seen it, go watch that because THAT is how you do an adaptation!
Edit: I don't recommend the 2007 version. The film is mediocre to say the least and tries to overcompensate so much. The way they handled the accident scene truly made me laugh out loud, and the final letter scene was so over the top dramatic that it told me the directors/makers of the movie had little to no faith in the source material because they thought it would be too boring. If you're still skeptical about the '95 version, just search for the letter scene. Let me tell you the build up of the entire movie to that scene will have your heart racing!
Seconded! That movie fully embodied the glow up and is amazingly beautifully shot.
OMG YES. IT WAS SO GOOD, I CANNOT RECOMMEND IT HIGH ENOUGH.
+1
Yes, totally agree, it's actually up here on youtube in decent quality, has been for years and nobody seems to be in a rush to take it down.
Right?!?!! Besides the actors being FAR too old, I mean the actor for Wentworth is straight up in his 40s, and the actress for Anne also looks at a minimum late 30s, when they are both supposed to be 30 and 28 respectively. But besides that, everything that is true to the spirit of the characters is represented. In my opinion, the mid 90s obsession with Jane Austen is still the gold standard. Except for the dance scene in 2004s P&P, that's unparalleled.
I don't think it's just Hollywood. It's the world in general that is designed for extroverts. Or rather for loud people. I've seen it and experienced it my whole life.
Yes! The louder you are, the more you talk, the more you are present and visible to people the more successful you become. Being quiet, avoiding and not existing makes people second guess and you end up wondering who you have become 😂💯😂. In other words, now it makes sense why public people like politians etc depend on "broadcasting and acting". If you don't give people an image they create one of their own inspired by their expectations and experiences which do not neccessary need have to do with you. Cheers!
What you said at the end was spot on. Why would you make period pieces so modern? Then they completely lose their purpose. One of the reasons Jane Austen's works had such a revival is b/c we all want to imagine we live back in that day when everyone was so nice and polite and orderly, at least on the surface. They want to completely wipe out the past, but that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There's a lot that was very charming and wholesome about that era.
Modern Hollywood Girlbossification really does ruin a lot of female characters :( You don't have to give women stereotypically masculine traits to make them interesting, it's just lazy writing at this point
yes!!! beside this story doesn't need girlbass at all. but modorn girlboss is a man in female body - drinking, swearing, fighting. creators still cannot write a female vharacter in 2022 wtf
Remember the dumpster fire which was canola cabelo's Cinderella?
Soooooooo lazy
Seriously! This is why Winona's "Jo" will always be THE best!! She grows into herself so fully and gracefully and doesn't have to tear anyone else down to do it!
Nowadays Hollywood is actually not how it used to be. Very not.
PREACH. I love Anne (from the book) because I relate to her so much as a quiet Character who struggles to advocate for herself.
Right ! Me too ! (even my name is Anne 😆) I was so mad and sad after watching it. 😞
@@naananna8625 Same! ahah
as someone who takes depression baths: I get internally cold when I'm feeling down or when I'm overstimulated and shutting down, so I can say that the trope is annoying but not completely inaccurate/unusual. I take a lot of baths when I just need the heat to give me the sensory stimulation that will make me feel better. The More You Know TM
I loved the 2007 version of Persuasion. Her inner dialogue as she writes in letters and diaries helped flush out her character. How infuriating her family is, how isolated she was not only in romance but friendships and peers. I loved the book and the 2007 version but every other adaptation fell short for me.
Same!❤
"Now we're strangers; worse than strangers, we're exes." Persuasion 2022
That's not playing around with the dialogue and adding something modern... that's butchering the subtle, sophisticated, and emotionally enigmatic poetry of Austen's writing and turning it into something I tried writing when I was 11 and trying to be cool.... *retching sound
I feel like all movie writers now never mentally matured past middle school. A lot of dialogue nowadays sounds like some shit I would have written in middle school
The fact they cast Henry Golding as Mr. Elliot when he's made to be Wentworth told me all I needed to know about that film
THANK YOU. I've been saying this exact thing.
Henry Golding was originally cast as Wentworth but asked/begged to be Mr. Elliot, he wanted a character with more depth, lol, I guess he read the script and realized they made a sloppy mess of Wentworth and decided to go with a better written character, lol
Yes! This!
I would rather prefer he wasn't cast at all- and I'm a fellow Malaysian. The non Caucasian actors looked extremely jarring in historical dramas like this. 😥
So very true!
I sat in the living room, and my mom was watching Netflix, I sat and thought this plot seemed familiar, then the horror, I realized it was Anne Elliott!! The more I watched the more horrible it became, the spice of persuassion was unnecessary an over the top! After the first 15 minutes I couldn't continue to see, I just left, 😭Anne my dear what they have done to you!!!
I just watched a movie last night called "A little princess" and besides the fact that the setting is completely wrong, they took away all the parts of the character that made me love the book protagonist Sara Crewe. She's quite quiet, gentle, with a heart made of roses and sunflowers. At the same time she loves girly things like frills, laces, dolls, jewelry and extravagance while also not being spoilt AND not looking down on others for having less. She was also extremely clever, smart, charming, and talented. All of these qualities don't exist in the movie version. She seems spoilt, disinteresting, we don't see her being clever, smart, etc. She bullies one of the other students and and that point it's literally not the same character lmao
A little bit late, but still)
I like Sara's story as well!
Have you seen the British series "A little princess" made in 1986? It's magical and, in my opinion, the best adaptation of all.
@@lilacsunset13 no I haven't! I'll have to watch that then to see if it's better. Something that threw me off about the movie was the actress playing Sara. It never directly says it in the book but I always assumed she was half or partially Indian since most people think she's a foreign or Indian princess. I also assumed her father was an Indian man as well as Mr. Carrisford. I was very disappointed while watching hahaha 😂
@@zvezdoblyat No, neither she and nor her father were Indians. She was from the English family; the story takes part in the 19th century, when India was the British colony, so many English people (especially rich) lived there, and Sara with her father as well. Her mother died in her early childhood and father later decided to bring daughter to the England, because of the Indian climate and because his late wife studied there as well.
For me Sara is such an inspiring character! Her calmness and dignity, her maturity and intelligence, her kindness and an ability to stay a princess in the most difficult times!..
And they make her a stupid bully. Gosh(
When was that nightmare movie created? Where? There're so many adaptations and many of them are quite different from the book, but that is beyond me.
@@lilacsunset13 yeah I know that her father is English and her mother was French, but it's more fun to think of them as Indian hahaha
Omg! Sara!!!! I love her! (it has an animated adaption and it's so good! ) They butchered her in the movie! >:(
The truly heroic is totally lost in Anne's character in this adaptation.
The original story is somewhat reminiscent of Cinderella, a woman who stands in the shadows and who manages to maintain her inner dignity and poise despite receiving the message from those around her that she is irrelevant and unimportant.
A strange idea of the producers to want to "correct" the story of an author of Jane Austen's caliber.
So, what's next?
Shakespeare's "Macbath" as a comedy series?
The stories of Mickey Mouse as family drama?
A new adaptation of "The Sound of Music" as an erotic thriller?
I actually would like a comedy Macbeth but cleverly done… and this doesn’t bode well for the future
That last one, Jesus Christ on a bicycle munching on a popsicle.
Maintaining inner dignity and worth despite those around you saying your mean nothing is such an important and inspiring characteristic. Thank you for your comment. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Now all i can think about is how a "The sound of music" erotic thriller would look and mostly I'm confused and a bit scared
Yikes, glad I haven’t seen that Netflix adaptation of Persuasion! Looks like I am better off reading the book.
Mickey Mouse as family drama series would be cool! XD
Actually, shy and kind characters are frowned upon because those are "feminine" traits, and people thinks that a strong woman need to have "masculine" traits (see: Cinderella, who is seen as a "damsel in distress", when she's actually facing abuse and strong enough to stay kind and gentle with others. She saved herself, by not becoming like her abusers and by believing and fighting for her dreams, and going to the ball after all. Having the prince felling in love with her is actually her reward, and the punishment of her abusers who wanted the power)
That's such a good point. Cinderella is always talked about as a damsel in distress and people say oh look she's saved by the Prince... but when you actually think about what's she's been through and survived that abuse for all those years it's pretty eye-opening!
I'd like to see more characters that are shy and kind without that being twisted around to be shown as weak and that they have to change etc.
I agree except for there is no such reward in real life, I would know. The best thing that ever happened to me is turning out to no be into men at all. She would be primed for an abusive troll, not a prince.
I will always defend Cinderella!
People who trash on her didn't get the moral of her story at all!!
@@CandyAndromeda maybe you're looking for a certain type of reward, and not seeing the blessings already around you. Life isn't always consistently awesome or crappy. It's more nuanced than that. But kind and ethical people are rewarded for their kindness in life, one way or another. Karma is fair
@@jenniferraymond9766 I hope so. Thank you!
Wait wait wait have you not seen 1995’s Persuasion with Amanda Root and Ciaran Hinds? That’s my favorite! The best! It’s not the most cinematically entertaining but as adaptations go, it certainly was faithful. You also see the physical (not just character) development in Anne. She looked such an old maid at the start but somewhere she started smiling more and she started looking lighter (for lack of a better word).
That is also what I felt during the movie.
Persuasion is my favorite Austen novel also! I didn't quite understand why, and I felt like I was cheating on Pride and Prejudice and Sense and Sensibility, but I think I get it now.
When we start the book, Anne is a depressed, passive introvert. At the end of the story she is happy, reasonably assertive, and still an introvert! You talk about it briefly, but Hollywood has this nasty tendency to treat introversion like a character flaw. Austen doesn't do that and I thank her for it
Now that you mention it, it would be quite cool to have a totally historically accurate set, interactions, and characters with some references to modern language, making them more relatable, and highlight the fact that the characters are people, "regular people" were "regular people" in the past too 🤷♀
👉👈 Could I interest you in my book?
From what I remember archaeologists at pompei found graffiti (from that era) of stuff like "your mom wishes she were with me"
You should check out the tv show Dickinson! It gives you characters complaining about "spoilers" in Dickens books while still being dressed in period accurate clothing (at least, I remember Bernadette Banner being pretty positive about the clothes). It is of course comedy and can get very quirky, so it's not going to be the typical period drama "drama"... but I loved watching it!
When you portray a historical and/or geographical setting and one aspect of the interpretation is modernized/localized in a way that clashes with the setting that's called "V-Effect" (from German "Verfremdung" for alienation). It was used by Bertolt Brecht to intentionally break the immersion so the audience would think about the themes of the story rather than accept it at face value
Funny enough, this sort of thing is the entire reason behind the channel Regular Car Reviews. The guys behind it were frustrated with how car culture and journalism focuses so hard on the legendary luxury/sports models and seems to forget that most cars manufactured in every era have just been regular cars for regular people. They wanted to celebrate those cars and the people who drove them, and now they're one of the most successful automotive channels on TH-cam.
"The whole reason we watch period dramas is to immerse ourselves in the past." EXACTLY THIS!!!!! A movie I believe that does this well is David Lynch's movie, The Elephant Man because everything from the costumes and the setting down to using black and white film immerses us into the world of late 19th Century London England. I just wish this film had more of that, tbh. When I watch a Jane Austen adaptation, it feels like I'm watching a beautiful painting from that era come to life. Pride & Prejudice, Sense & Sensibility, and Emma get that right
Also, the 2012 Oscar winning movie, The Artist did a perfect job at capturing the same thing which was the early 1920s silent film era. They knew how to accurately depict silent films and the glamorous Hollywood side of the 20s very well. The visuals are stunning to look at
It's impossible to immerse people in period dramas with the current trend of anachronistic dialogue, costumes and casting which unfortunately was massively popularised by Bridgerton and now everyone is trying to copy. It only worked with Bridgerton because they fully embraced the anachronisms, everything from the Billie Eilish soundtrack, glittery gowns, casting, dialogue, everything embraced the modernised fantasy non historical vibe of the show. What doesn't work is when shows try to do both, some things accurate and some things innacurate. It's confusing for the viewer and completely takes them out of the immersion. It only works if you're 100% accurate or not at all
@@hi-ve1cw That's the sad part! Ever since Bridgerton happened, people try to give period dramas a 2022 spin when that is not completely accurate at all. The reason why Clueless and 10 Things I Hate About You worked so well is because they are contemporary/modern and up-to-date adaptations yet at the same time, you can tell they studied Jane Austen and Shakespeare's works so they still respected the story.
One of my favorite gentle characters in Hollywood is Adrienne from Rocky. She is quiet and kind, and once she learns to speak her mind she doesn't lose the gentleness that makes her special. It becomes more powerful, because now she has the courage to say the things she needs to say to love her man.
I absolutely love the 1995 adaptation, it’s so melancholic and so well thought, it has that longing in a very subtle way ❤️ and at least anne doesn’t say “we’re exes”
She says that?? 😭
i feel like this trope of “soft” women not being represented/being looked down upon in media is just another form of misogyny. there are many ways of being a woman and none of them are wrong. An antifeminist female character is one that’s centered around a male character, not one that’s soft and shy. and I feel as if the trend of strong, meta, sarcastic female characters is so- stupid, when it’s not done well. If a woman character is all meta and sarcastic and quirky and self-depreciating just for the sake of not being labeled as “one of the other regressive antifeminist feminine girlies who do everything for men”, and not to say anything about her character or experiences in life, then she’s still a character centered around the male gaze; she’s still a weak antifeminist character, if that makes sense.
The charm of Jane Austen was her ability to write good women characters from the PERSPECTIVE of women. They were good characters because they were real people. This trend shows no real people and no human beings. Shows like fleabag are so good because that’s genuinely part of the character’s cHARACTER and experiences in life- she is the way she is because her environment has made her this way.
Shows like this one, that almost look down on women for being shy and older and kind, are bAd, because they’re making a woman character for the sole purpose of her likeability and relatability, not because she’s a human being. I hope that makes sense???
Just- there’s no wrong way to be a woman. you’re not disinteresting if you’re quiet. Making women feel as if they’re not enough is the problem, not anything women do or are.
“An anti-feminist female character is one that’s centred around a male character, not one that’s soft and shy”
PREACH. So many people don’t realise this.
Couldn’t agree more. It also hinders the love story, because the “girlboss” conflicts with the idea of being totally, stupidly in love with **gasp** a man and wanting to be devoted to him.
@@anerrorhasoccurred8727 They also don't understand soft and shy, doesn't mean weak.
@@purpurina5663 The other greatness of Austin is that it also doesn't say there's only one way to feel a deep & all encompassing love. My favorite Austin love story has always been between Marianne Dashwood & Colonel Brandon from Sense & Sensibility, because she starts out with an idealized view of love, but in the end learns that true love is more sincere than poetry alone. Love can be patient & soft, but still be every bit as passionate within. It doesn't have to be some crazy grand romance to be just as deeply felt & expressed.
It hella is, but i feel like it’s also steeped in the fact that the “gentle, quiet woman” can be reminiscent of old anti-feminist stereotype of women. It’s just as much the audience’s fault as it is the producers, i feel like when *some* people see a gentle quiet woman they go “MISOGYNSTIC” which isn’t true at all. At least in the buzzfeed era they did.
Pride and Prejudice is my favorite Jane Austen, but nothing has hit me harder than reading the scene in Persuasion where he come back in for his gloves and puts the letter on the table. In order for something that small to have so great an impact, you have to see how reserved both Anne and Wentworth ALWAYS are.
I love how Austen ups the tension by not allowing Anne any peace and quiet to absorb the letter’s contents but has Anne’s family immediately reenter to surround her in noise and chatter.
I hate movies that try to modernise old works and period times, to freshen up or appeal and relate to millennials. That’s not getting them more into history, it’s distorting it, they gotta just accept how things were back then. Yes, relationships, fashion and rules for women were different and difficult, but let’s not over-write, modernise or fantasise it because it’s easier.
All your criticisms are on point!
I only watched this adaptation yesterday, and you said exactly what I was thinking of it, I agree with every word! I love Anne's and Wentworth's personality, and was horrified how much they changed them in the movie, along with many other changes (I was constantly asking during the beach scene 'when will it end', it was painful to watch).
Persuasion is my absolute favourite book, for similar reasons ( it's the YEARNING!). Like, the LETTER? 'You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope' (maybe not an exact quote) still gives me heart palpitations whenever I think about it. And I didn't even know there was a Netflix adaptation! Maybe I should've stayed ignorant though...
Best love letter in English literature.
Best letter in English lit, completely ruined and made pointless in this Netflix “adaptation”
Ignorance is bliss... Watch 1995 or 2007 versions and be happy
I get you! Persuasion is my favourite Jane Austen book! I've loved Anne so much and hurted alongside her too- the way she manages through the difficulties is just so amazing
I 100% agree. It's truly amazing how Jane Austen managed to fit so many compelling characters and so much emotional depth into such a short book.
In the 1995 film, I felt that Anne offered to take care of Young Charles partly because she didn't want to see Wentworth and feel her soul break, but she also just wanted Charles and Mary to shut up. Having an argument about your child within earshot of him, acting like children themselves, Anne stepped up and let them go.
I agree, it felt like that in the 2007 version as well.
I agree with every single word. Every single one of them. Persuasion is my most favourite book, exactly because it finally had a heroine that felt familiar to me, that I could find myself in.
I find it disgusting how they butchered this masterpiece for the sake of “show” and millennial taste… disgusting.
Thank you for voicing this and making this video! ❤️
“I swear to God, the bathtub immersion shot needs to die” is absolutely true omg thank you for saying this.
About gentle characters, one of the reasons why I fell in love with Korean dramas is exactly because they know how to portray the tension, the silent love, characters that are observants, that take time to understand their feelings, without being in your face...I hate how everything now is rushed
I am shy and introverted, so it takes time for me to actually express what I am feeling
I absolutely love pride and prejudice because of that tension, the stares from afar....because, when they actually dance together, when they have the slightest touch, it feels intense...you, as a viewer, have been rooting so much for them that those scenes actually feel like a reaward hahahah
This. I wholeheartedly agree with your point. Korean dramas do gentle characters really well. I hope that a future version of Persuasion will be able to do its characters justice in a similar fashion!
any korean dramas you'd recommend? i'd like to start watching some. :)
@@CatharticCreation Same!! ^^
You nailed it. Boys over flowers was my first kdrama and the will they or wont they was just done so well. They played my emotions like a marionette.
@@CatharticCreation Angel's Last Mission: Love, Family's Honor, My Love From the Star, Wife Returns, Can You Hear My Heart?, Cain and Abel, Save Your Last Dance For Me, Descendants of the Sun
... those are some of my favorites
The obsession to make every female protagonist "witty" and "unique" by just making them alcoholic and sarcartic is so tiredsome, please let protagonists be gentle and soft
Not every movie with women in it needs to be Mean Girls 2.
One of the reasons I've always thought this was Austen's most important work was that it's an example of a character learning to stand up for herself, and to make decisions in her own best interest, in spite of having always put others first in the past. And I couldn't agree with your critique more; it's rather gratifying to see the number of comments in agreement as well.
seeing everyone trashing this film has made me very interested in the book. im very soft spoken and a bit of a doormat (im working on it!) so a book about a gentle quiet person learning how to say no is exactly what i need in my life. i’ll finish the book im reading now and then get persuasion :)
I'm waiting for the day when a movie/show gets a quiet/shy feminist character RIGHT. its so easy to write loud and proud feminism, to the point where it can be obnoxious/unlikeable, and people don't want to put in the effort to have a character that's quietly strong. I'm not loud, I'm incredibly shy but i can stand up for myself in quiet ways, and I've yet to see a character i feel truly represents who i am on a screen.
well... they did it in the past, not so far actually. for example, in 90s Disney's cartoon movies. there were strong, powerful women but they had their weaknesses and they also didn't have to show their "women power"TM EVERY SECOND of the movie
@@Kazenikatze the annoying thing about that is that children’s books are better at that
@@Kazenikatze absolutely right! Thank you for articulating this.
(Answer to This is me): If you haven’t seen the movie ‘’’A walk to remember’’, the lead female character is perfect for what you are looking for! 😊
Question: can a "quiet/shy feminist character" be cunning? If so then you can have such a character easily, provided she's a paragon of Sun Tzu & Machiavelli's principles.
I’ve been noticing the lack of soft/shy character representation since I was 17 and started writing, the main character came naturally to me as a way to describe my experiences with social anxiety and to show that it’s normal and ok and everyone doesn’t have to have this cookie cutter sassy personality, even after character arc-ing
But oh my gosh it would be so nice to see more of this representation from books and movies and other story mediums, coming from someone who always felt bad for being unable to live up to the “strong female archetype”
It's because so many have bought the lie that the only way a woman can be "strong" is by being more like a stereotypical man.
The princess diaries was that character for me because she struggled with public speaking and I had the same issue along with self doubt. They don’t make a lot of characters that much anymore because of the times
I turned 13 in 2001, and I remember being so excited when I discovered Gilmore Girls and the main teenage character was a bookish, and shy girl who at didnt get a bf until she was 16 and seemed so much more relatable to me than the other popular teen shows at the time. You can imagine my dismay when Rory became a society party girl with a party boy boyfriend later in the show 😭 I was like noooo, you took my one character I could relate to and made her just like every other girl character on every other WB/CW show lol.
as someone who also gets socially anxious and tends to be quieter, Newt Scamander is one of my all-time favourite characters for this exact reason. he's quiet and occasionally awkward but not shy, he's assertive and brave but still very kind, and he's not typically "masculine" but is never "emasculated" (by others or by the writers) - and these qualities are never portrayed as a bad thing or as lesser; he's not really got a problem with the way he is the same way I don't. The Eleventh Doctor from Doctor Who is very similar (and another favourite of mine) but I've yet to find a female equivalent I can really relate to.
@@frances7575 I love the 11th doctor! Adorable! It's the only one I have watched more of.
There are two other versions of Persuasion which are by far way better than this. The one in the 90's with Ciaran Hinds is a near perfect adaptation, and the one from '07 with Sally Hawkins is a little more condensed but has quite a dreamlike quality to it and really nails the internal pining and anguish. If you haven't watched either of them, I highly recommend both!
Persuasion is one of my favorite books, too. Totally relate to Anne, and love her gentle, quiet, character! I just walked into my library and grabbed my copy of the book to read again. :) You are absolutely right. Gentle characters need more love and respect and representation in movies.
Emma Thompson pulled off this type of character. Between her and Ang Lee's direction, "Sense and Sensibility" had no problem communicating the inner life of a quiet non-assertive person.
I feel like the movies in the 90’s still did that very well. Woke culture is ruining all that😆
@@christinawatkinsyoutube 'Woke' culture is just another symptom, as is the coarsening of taste. The cause is deeper: a growing distrust for reason, which has also translated to fewer and fewer people having any idea what it is to actually think, and a growing focus on emotions as the barometer for right and wrong. At least that's the overly short version.
Woke culture is ruining things? That makes no sense. If anything, being woke would encompass being aware of the variety and nuances of human traits and appreciating a quiet person for who they are, rather than having to change them to what “society” think is best.
💯
My problem with people complaining about "woke culture" is that people tend to use it to inevitably complain about something they don't like rather than explain the nuances of the issue and how it should be improved. And certain things they may like or do would have once been treated with same disdain decades ago anyway.
I need to read Persuasion again. I read it years back & loved how different the protagonist was. She was a pushover, but she was intelligent & a deep thinker. And I think it's the only book where they describe how some people can look better with age.
Another character that modern movie makers cannot faithfully adapt is Irene Adler. A writer pointed out that the reason Adler was a standout in the books was: a) she bested Sherlock b) she was genuinely a good person, disproving Sherlock's misogyny c) she was very independent minded. In the adaptations, she's outsmarted by Sherlock, she's usually a crook & often she's working for Moriarty. Making her nothing out of the ordinary.
Excellent point about Irene Adler! It makes me so mad when people reduce her to a #girlboss who's in love with Holmes. I get why adaptations might not want to follow her story completely because her ending up married to an unrelated man might alienate women who feel empowered by her, but honestly? I love that she gets what she wants. A modern adaptation could have her just moving out from the King's influence and getting to live her own life.
Also, I'd argue a little about her being a good person - her motives were ultimately good, but I enjoy how the blackmail muddies the waters a bit and makes her a little morally grey. Moral complexities make for realistic and interesting characters! And it seems like a lot of female characters aren't allowed to be morally complex, they have to be a girlboss or a saint or evil to their core (or aligned with evil because they're being forced by a scary man) because they're held up to a much higher standard than male characters (This isn't a criticism of your comment, I just enjoy talking about Irene!!)
@@nowherels64 from what I remember, she doesn't blackmail the King. The King just assumes that she will some day. When she says in her note that she isn't planning to use the letters but wants to keep them as security, the King immediately believes it as she's a woman of her word. Sherlock gets mad at the King because he was under the impression he was going after a blackmailer.
I may remember it wrong though - another story I need to revisit.
I do like morally gray characters in general, but in the case of Adler, I felt that her integrity was critical to the plot as it makes Sherlock rethink his biases.
I don’t think she was a pushover as much as she was stagnant. She lost the love of her life because she had to sacrifice that union in favor of her family. She never got over that, and keeps acting in that same pattern. She hasn’t grown or changed as a person because she’s stuck in the same unchanging position. The events of the novel give her growth opertunity. Not just Wentworth coming back, but more importantly the whole letting of her home, the going to Bath and reconnecting with an old friend, just the traveling in general.
@@Smd3580 ah fair enough! I also need to revisit the story, it's been ages since I actually read the originals. Good point about her morality! That does make sense, actually. I think I'm probably remembering it a little differently. To the books!
@@nowherels64 you are right. She did threaten to send the photograph to the King's fiancé, before she fell in love with someone else. And Sherlock didn't get mad at the King for misleading him on her character. Not sure why that interpretation has stuck with me all these years.
She threatened the King because she wanted to stop his wedding to someone else, which is morally gray. But it was for love and not for profit. Movies today would probably feel such a motivation would make her seem weak. Making her a greedy opportunist appears a lot more empowering.
I actually liked that she got married to a completely unrelated character, who clearly knew all about her past and supported her. She left a King for this man. It showed more depth of character and intelligence, since he was clearly a better man than the King.
Loved that I got to revisit this story. It made such an impression on me when I first read it. Such a complex character.
I think the movie would have a lot to learn from the character Celie in the Color Purple. She was a great example of a gentle, introverted character that has a great character arch and learns to stand up for herself, but still doesn’t change who she is as a person.
I love the 1995 BBC version of Persuasion. I like how the portray Anne, she is quiet, so subltely intelligent and everyone takes advantage of her and she learns to stand up for herself like on the book
It was such a dumpster fire from Netflix, whose productions have spiraled out of control to the point they seem to be throwing garbage at the wall to see what sticks.
Yeah they cancelled the few shows I liked and haven’t been making anything watchable in quite some time
I just saw The King, I was gladly surprised. I had to double check, yes, incredibly, Netflix produced it, who would have thought…
I wish we could see an Ang Lee’s version of “Persuasion”. He had done such a great job on “Sense and Sensibility”
That is a wonderful adaptation and a great comfort film (at least for me lol)!💜
Can you imagine!!!!
Other commenters already brought it up above, but basically the 1995 Persuasion is perfection itself as an adaptation.
Yes!! I love Sense and Sensibility!!
That movie is perfect. ❤️
The bathtub immersion scene! I've wasted too many precious moments wondering HOW this became a thing we see over and over again. Surely there are more innovative ways to show a character feels trapped in a situation/can't express themselves.
My cousin and I were talking about Jane Austen. My cousin said she didn't like her stories because she thought her characters were boring. I said I LOVED Jane Austen because the shy, unassuming, humble characters ...are the ones that got happiest endings. It's the best part for me because those characters are the exact ones I want to win. When I saw the 2007 version I instantly fell in love with it.
“Why do we think gentle and kind people can’t be passionate and interesting.” 👌🏼 THANK YOU!
AH YES! we’ve gone so far with the ‘strong woman’ trope that being traditional femininity and soft, meek or gentle is seen as weak. I am a very quiet shy person but it will be a cold day in hell when i let someone walk all over me. meekness is not weakness and i wish we could have more diversity in the strong female lead camp
Game of Thrones did this with Arya and Sansa. Arya was the warrior while Sansa loved the feminine stuff. So interesting how the larger audience (male and female) liked Arya more due to her sword whereas Sansa's arc was more political and in the end she turned out to be a queen. Something not many people touch upon. Martin did a good job with making the sisters opposite.
@@queenb2450 Because Sansa made some really bad decisions and her arc of development was not always on the likeable path. This problem lays on more complex aspects not merely on the feminin-masculin thropes.
@@Girl95szia nah I think judging her when she was a 12/13 year old girl (imagine us as 13 year olds) and wanting the Prince Charming - Joffrey- which people are dumb and don’t understand that’s how girls are when they’re that age??! They want Prince Charming. Due to that, she made her bad decisions because she was young - again we all do- but no one saw past that and forever marked her as wrong….while we all love Jamie Lannister even though he’s don’t way worse than Sansa as a GROWN ADULT. I think the hypocrisy is interesting
When you're so obsessed about making a "strong female character" that you turn her into a horrible monster of a person, you've gone too far. Hollywood needs to learn that lesson.
@@joshuarichardson6529 well, Hollywood is made up of a lot of different people with different perspectives. They all can’t think like the diverse group of people who consume their art.
I would've MUCH rather seen a movie about book version Ann! In fact, I think I needed it, as someone who will struggles to speak up for myself
Ha! If only Hollywood would dislike shy, observant & introverted people then life would be easy. But why do real people think its is a weakness & only losers can behave like that?! 😭 I'm always lost for words when people treat me like that. Yes, I've learned to write my opinion on the internet. But it's still so hard to speak my mind in front of others. Guess what, I have to read this book. Maybe it'll help me a little!!
Same frustrates me in case of male characters. Why do male characters always have to be buff, rugged, expert in fighting ten at a time and have sexual confidence of Zeus level in order to be an awesome male character???!!
I have a theory that's why Darcy endures he's one of the few male heroes who's introverted and has development.
What gives me hope is that I’ve been seen more and more women, from very different backgrounds/interests (film criticism, series, gender topics, historical recreation) discussing this. It’s reassuring to see that people are getting fed up with this BSc and its worst version, i.e., “strong women=hypermasculine woman” (hypermasculine in the most toxic way)
Yeap, I’m totally over that exaggerated image of women 🙌🏻🦋
I don’t think these women can be called masculine. They’re all the same cookie cutter bland “quirky” but if they were masculine at least they would be interesting because they would be different
I mean as a masculine woman I wouldn't call them to be hypermasculine (masc women are almost never represented as they are not attractive to the male gaze). They almost always still look conventionally attractive and feminine. They just give them all the same sTrOng, independant, no-flaws personality. It's really sad that they are all the same and that writers don't write realistic people that happen to be women.
I really don't think the character is hyper-masculine OR toxic...
@@ria-1718 They give them a hypermasculine personality, with big boobs and a sexualised outfit.
When I saw the commercial and Anne’s character talking to camera I thought it was a great way of showing the audience her inner monologue. But then they ruin it but having her just saying most of it out loud after just thinking it. Anne in the book was so thoughtful and the movie made her bumbling and outspoken.
You said it so well! A friend once asked me why I love Persuasion so much when Anne is so "boring and shy". Honestly thinking of sending this video to her bc you explained it so well! Me, being a bit Anne like, could not manage to put it into words.
Persuasion is a beautiful story about a woman who finds her voice, defies her family, takes control of her life and gets a second chance to marry the man of her dreams, after all hope of accomplishing these things was lost.
Perfectly said. Here is a passage that provides Anne's impressions after meeting Wentworth again. "They had no conversation together, no intercourse but what the commonest civility required. Once so much to each other! Now nothing! There had been a time, when of all the large party now filling the drawing-room at Uppercross, they would have found it most difficult to cease to speak to one another. With the exception, perhaps, of Admiral and Mrs. Croft, who seemed particularly attached and happy, (Anne could allow no other exception even among the married couples), there could have been no two hearts so open, no tastes so similar, no feelings so in unison, no countenances so beloved. Now they were as strangers; nay, worse than strangers, for they could never become acquainted. It was a perpetual estrangement. "
Exactly, at the end when you mentioned soft spoken or introverted people would appreciate the representation, that's the whole point of this novel. Those of us who list Persuasion as our favorite Jane Austen book it is because of Anne's personality! We can identify with her behavior. I know it's hard to adapt this book but it's pretty dull to have so many identically temperamented female leads of late. Honestly pick a different story to adapt if you can't handle how different these celebrated main characters are!
THANK YOU ! It's a problem I always had with movies, they can"t protray shy, passive characters correctly and as a shy, passive person it's frustrating. You made me want to read the book because it's seems like I could relate to Anne ( something the film never succeed in because she is more confident than me maybe but mostly because she didn't felt real, just like a character )
I've always seen Anne as the unloved, scapegoat daughter of an extremely selfish, snobbish and emotionally abusive father who throughout the novel learns to break free from the traumabond and heal. So if she's self-assured, happy and free from the get-go like it seems that she is in this adaptation, the whole point of the story is lost...
I do like the Amanda Roots adaptation even though the ending is a bit much maybe.
This is how I see her, too. I liked the 2007 one with Sally Hawkins. Yet to see the 95 one.
I think Ang Lee's Sense and Sensibility directly addresses the "quiet, controlled" character in Elinor vs. the passionate, outspoken Marianne. It's integral to the plot that they wrestle with their personal weaknesses and grow into more balanced characters.
The 2008 Sense & Sensibility was also excellent. And no shade to Alan Rickman, but I liked David Morrissey better.
Thank you!!! Just the title of this video alone sums up something I've noticed for years. I am also a quiet, introverted person, and I used to be very shy and socially anxious. Characters like Anne Elliot and Mr. Darcy resonate with a lot of people.
Thank you for this! Persuasion is also my very favorite Jane Austen & I started this new adaptation and could only watch about 10 minutes. Your points on Anne's character and how it develops are so good!