Of course, all of this is just my opinion, but these concepts are a great starting point. As you gain experience, adjust the kit how it works for you! This video is really just to help beginners get their kits to a reasonable, workable starting point. If you're doing it in a way that works for you, AWESOME! Thanks for stopping by!
Just starting off huh? The presentation of your videos is very professional and I really like the subject matter in your headlines. Everyone online talks about what not to do but it's nice that you're bringing up these majorly overlooked details, and rarely discussed on channels like drumeo. I feel like the engineering aspect of drums, set up psychology, as well as tuning psychology. We shouldn't have any more beginners having to use trial and error to learn these basics . I appreciate what you're doing you got a sub for me. PS I am not a beginner but I'm a guitar player first I'm left-handed but I play on a right-handed so when I made it to Drums I had no clue LOL playing open-handed on a right-handed kit felt natural I wish I had some drum buddies before I locked in these incorrect habits
Thank you for another great instructive video for those of us who have played 40 odd years to the beginner. Never hurts any skill level to gain new perspective and ideas.
On the subject of memory locks… I have a vintage Slingerland kit, so no factory memory locks. I use very small hose clamps from the hardware store on my rack tom holder and floor tom legs. Makes set up quick and secure. Thanks for the video!
I just discovered your TH-cam channel and I love it! I have been playing drums for many years, but I still learn something from every one of your videos, you cover so much great information. Great stuff, keep it coming!
@@user-pq9ji7kt4l I set my throne the same as the OP, and I'm heal up all the time. I play with the ball of my foot on both hat and kick. Edit: I also bury the beater all the time.
Also on throne height....for those who have played for a while with the throne too high and decide to lower it, the cymbals need to come down as well. Many, many cymbals have been cracked by drummers who lowered their seat height and left the cymbals at their previous height/angle.
I totally agree with this video. I always preferred to sit higher and have my drums be lower and more flatly angled than other people would like, mainly for posture, comfort, speed, rebound, and sound. And then there's Steve Gadd. He liked to sit low with his toms tilted quite a lot!
Yes. Gadd is one of the first ones who comes to mind for setting things up however the heck he wanted. There are a ton of players who are amazing, and I'd never want to play their kits! Thank you for the comment!
This is exactly why I use shallower and traditional tom depths. My previous kit had a 12x9 over the right side of the bass drum. Switching to a 12x8 was much more comfortable to position and play without hitting the bass drum hoop.
That is great advice to setup your toms like you'd want to do rimshots off them. Even if you don't plan to. I think in the past I have strayed from trying this, because I was mounting 12" and 13" toms off a 22" kick just like you said. It puts everything super high and I am 5'8. Putting the kick slightly to the side and setting up smaller toms on a stand in front of me was the solution.
Great video. I've tried to set my rack toms (12,13) up on a flatter plane, but like you mentioned they either knock into each other or the kick drum, or they end up too far separated from each other. It is easier to achieve this with my secondary kit which is a 10,12. I played an open jam with the kit provided and the kit was about as flat and stealth as I've ever seen. I kept missing the middle tom and hitting the rim. It definingly would take some getting used to.
Thank you! YES - when I went to 10 and 12 toms with the shorter shell depths, that changed everything. I've also used a 20" kick for years. Open jams are always fun and a crap shoot - you never know what the "kit-uation" will be. That's really only a drummer problem, too. Thanks for the comment!
That reminds me, I only do open jams rarely, and up for about 3 or 4 songs. When the drummer says you can move them anyway you want, I say nahh, I am only going to hit stuff, I don't give a f*** wherre it is! If I can't reach it, I won't hit it.
Truth. I usually will only move the throne (usually higher) and the hi hat pedal. Maybe the snare if it's way out of my comfort zone. Other than that, play it where it lies.
For my old 80's-90's kit, as much as I want to set my rack toms (12', 13') at the way you mentioned (close to flat and not angled), I can't. I keep them on the bass drum like most kits. Doing so, and setup as mentioned, they sit too high. I can adjust the throne height to accommodate. But I'm pretty much standing already. This is not an issue for my newer kits where the rack toms are smaller (8', 10', 12'). I prefer to keep the typical 5 piece setup for my kit where the toms sit on the bass drum.
Yeah, man. Some of those old kits have huge drum sizes. It’s impossible to put them how I like them, so you do what you need to so they’re playable. Thanks for the comment.
Great lesson! I like my mounted floor tom sloped towards me. I feel the it gets the rim out of my way for better aim at the center of the head. I'm amazed to see...can't think of his name...with floor toms sloped away from him! He does use traditional grip, which might factor into his approach. Another thing, if I use a second floor tom, I push it away from me for a better arch of the four toms. If the second floor tom is too close, it feels cramped.
Nice. Sounds like you have a great concept for your kit. I’m starting to see more modern players sloping drums and cymbals away from them, and I can dig it. And, YES, I hate when things are too close. Great comment!
Good video I mostly agree. This is good advice for beginners, especially with regards to drum throne height. I think rack toms can be a little tricky to set up, but there's only so many places you can reasonably put them. What do you think about the "stair step" method of rack tom setup like you might see with Russ Miller, Dave Weckl, later-career Neil Peart, and Jeff Porcaro? Maybe in their case, it was done to avoid changing the position of the hi-hat, but I've found even with two toms over the bass drum, it's very comfortable to have my first (left) rack tom positioned slightly higher than the second. Also bass drum mounted tom positioning can be more comfortable for some people if they twist the mount slightly to the right, bringing the first (left) tom a little further away and the second (right) tom closer and more central, like you see with Ralph Peterson and Rob Brown. But this also puts the second rack tom over a taller part of the bass drum so it definitely won't work for every drummer or drum set.
YES! These are all great points. I think the stair-step setup is actually really cool, and those names you mentioned are all legendary players, of course. My two thoughts are: 1) Whatever works, works. If you practice consistently, really any setup is going to work for you because you can adapt to it. 2) Those A+ list players have developed not only their technique, but their setup over a long period of time, so they've obviously got well-thought-out reasoning behind just about every millimeter of adjustment. Weckl is basically a research scientists when it comes to this aspect. I've definitely played with that second tom closer over the center of the kick drum, but I usually have an 18 or 20 inch kick. On my main kit I have a 22, and for a long time I put rack toms on a stand in the position between the hat and kick, so I still had two rack toms, but they were both to the left of the kick. Weird, but again, I adapted, so it ended up working out really well. One thing I neglected to mention is ride cymbal position. I really like mine in the position where the second rack tom usually lives (which is why I usually play 4-piece - I play a lot of jazz these days). As you rightly pointed out, it's tricky. My hope is that this video gives some concepts to think about, and it's mostly aimed at beginner players. Thanks for the comment! Great thoughts!
I watched this because I always can learn more. I realized that's pretty much exactly how I set up and play. One problem I recently ran into ( totally self inflicted ), is I decided I play my cowbell way more than the second tom, so I moved it to slightly off center right on the almost highest spot on the bass drum in between snare and floor tom. So depending which set I am using, I basically have to move the second tom over to the right a bit, just a slight reach. But the cowbell is dead where it is comfortable, instead of on my far right off a cymbal stand. I also switch and hit it with my left hand when the right hand is on the ride cym. Not disagreeing but my thigh is always pointing down, never level. I can't imagine the stress of being level, or of course worse , up. Thank you very much.
First, thank you for watching my video! Sounds like you are thoughtful and experienced, so I say set it up however it works for you. I've been trying to add a cowbell in a comfortable place for a while, but I'm not there yet. I'm just going to have to make it work! Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for this video. Of course, tom setup will depend on traditional vs matched grip, drummer height, tom depth (oh those vintage power toms!) etc. I love watching famous trad grip players, like Steve Smith or Simon Phillips to see how they've set their toms up! Good pics at the beginning, as well.
Absolutely excellent points. Yeah, there are definitely legends that violated every single thing I said in my video - I should have made it clear that this is a starting point and experience can really take you wherever works for you. Thank you for the comment!
If everybody heeded your advice, a significant part of even the professionals (even though it's a minority, still significant) would have to redesign their drumkit. Look at how fabulously un-ergonomic are the kits of Igor Cavalera (recent, post-Sepultura era) or Deep Purple's own Ian Paice. It's incredible they still have all their limbs in place.
Yeah, I completely agree. At the end of the day, if it works, it works. The blessing/curse of drum kit is that it is almost unlimited in how it can be set up and adjusted. Hopefully this video gives a few people a place to start with their setup and solves a few problems. Thanks for the comment!
You, my compadre are spot on. Whatever works best for you. Of course, a guy/gal can and should learn from those who have gone on before, but keep what works best for you.
We're pretty much on the same page concerning drum set-ups. It's a pet peeve of mine when I'm playing on someone else's kit and the toms are set up at weird angles. If I try to let the sticks rebound naturally, they don't come back to my "neutral' position. Instead, they'll fly off to the side, making smooth transitions from drum to drum almost impossible. I've noticed that on kits with power sized toms -- deeper shell depths -- many less experienced drummers will set the toms at steeper and odd angles to lower the rims to make it easier to hit the heads and not bump the sticks into the sides of the drums. I find this is a mistake, for the same reasons you've mentioned. And often it affects the sound of the toms because the sticks don't strike the heads at the best angle to draw the sound out of the drums. What usually happens is the drummer starts hitting the drums harder and harder to get some volume out of them, to the point of choking the drums. With good technique, loudness comes with acceleration of the stroke -- why we start out high on the stroke for loud notes. I remember a friend of mine, who gave me few lessons, when she played, she could get really loud. She was by no means a large woman and her arms, though defined, were not beefy. It was all technique. She taught me about drawing the sound out of the drum by letting the sticks rebound quickly, to get out of the way of the head's vibration. Many years ago, I read about finding out the best set-up for one's kit in Modern Drummer. I do not recall the writer's name, but talked about starting with the throne, then the pedals, the snare drum, and on form there. He talked about sitting in a relaxed position with good posture. He also addressed the issue of what he called the "twisted torso" effect of having the bass drum directly facing ahead -- towards the audience if one is playing on stage. Because this kind of set-up places the legs and hips at and angle -- often as much as 45 degrees when viewed from the top. But the toms and cymbals are kind of set up to be played with the drummer facing the audience. So the shoulders and torso are not in line with the hips. He recommended setting the bass drum at an angle -- with it facing a little towards the right for a right handed drummer. That way, one's body stays in a relaxed neutral position with the shoulders lined up with the hips. I've been setting up this way ever since. It's surprising how much energy is wasted when the body has to compensate for unbalanced and contorted positions. Of course, I realize this may not be for every drummer. And some stages are too small for ideal positioning. But I recommend that drummers give this a try. It might be just the trick to finding a more relaxed way of playing.
@@CommonSenseMusician I don’t know if I told you, but I am 74 year old self taught drummer and a retired school teacher/varsity football coach. I spent 39 years in the classroom and 45 years on the gridiron. I love your no-nonsense approach to your videos.
Thank you. I'm glad we connected, and I'm glad some of it is helpful. That many years coaching and teaching gives you a ton of great perspective - thank you for all you did for your students and athletes! More no-nonsense coming your way!
First, Thanks for the content. I'm rocking a 22" kick and 10", 13", 14" and 16" Tama Starclassic Maple with a virgin Bass drum and i feel this pain lol. My solution to the fat toms over the large bass drum, was to move my 13" over to my front and center tom, and put my 10" to the right of it. This allowed me to move the larger one into the space where you would typically use a snare stand, leveling it out a tonne, and putting the shollower 10" over the bass. It's VERY close, but super playable. I do wish I could flatten them a bit more. Moving the throne position up also helped with the double strokes on my feet. Feel free to check out a video of mine and you'll see what I mean. The setup offers SO much playability with both higher and lower voices available at any angle. There is afar more to the kit then that lol.
Thanks for the comment! I just checked out your videos. That kit looks amazing and fun to play. And you sound great. Strong work! I love to see this kind of setup because it is suited to your individual playing. No rule says you have to set up a certain way. Keep it up!
My Drummer is 6'6" so sitting at his kit with a 24" bass drum and 12" and 13" toms is absurd. His cymbals are at eye level! It makes for not having to worry about too much bleed when mic'ing the kit though. 😂
Drum hoop height vs head surface is a factor too, and can be exacerbated by sticks with small beads and short tapers. You would have to increase the tom angle to avoid inadvertent rimshots, or aim for contact points always dead center - hard to do when playing challenging parts. Conversely, lower profile hoops (or heads that allow the hoop to seat lower) and sticks with big tips can get you that super parallel action - like a mallet on a timpani.
As a hobby drummer I have this huge issue placing the ride between the 12 inc high tom and the 14 inch floor tom, while maintaining the same distance of the toms, and also having the floor tom and high tom on the same height, because of the 22 inch bass drum... Also i maxed out the floor tom leg height !
You’re playing a four piece? I think the throne height is a key piece of that puzzle, too. Did you see my video about pedal setup? That might help a little, too. Thanks for the comment!
Well, that's exactly what my desperate drumteacher 😞 tried to make clear to me 40 years ago, but what was I supposed to do? I had two 24" bassdrums because it was completely impossible to play with just one bass drum in the 80s! And back then we used huge toms, so I had a wall of 14 by 14 and 15 by 15 toms placed in front of me... Also cymbals back then should not be hung below 5 feet, for show reasons, the two obligatory chinas on the left and right had to hang over 6 feet high, otherwise drumming wouldn't have been possible those days... 🤣🤣🤣🤣 my God, we had to do a complete workout back then. ..😱 Thanks for this content! I really appreciate it! 👍
Thank YOU for your kind words! I started playing in the late 80s. I think I got my first kit in maybe 1987. I remember wanting nothing more than a mega kit with huge toms and two bass drums, with the, "obligatory chinas," of course! My first "pro" kit was a DW 7-piece that I faithfully dragged to every gig and set up absolutely everything I owned. It was SUCH overkill. I finally wised up when I saw another drummer absolutely killing it and sounding great on a little 4-piece kit with a 16" kick. The band I was playing with at the time had a ton of gigs, so I put together the cash and got myself a little traveler kit, and the whole world changed. I still play that DW kit, but mostly in my studio! Sincerely, thanks for the comment!
As a drummer of over 45 yrs, I always love it when someone, anyone, wants to tell you "what is right". Really, there's just what you learned and what makes YOU comfortable. STOP thinking it's your way or the highway.
You’re absolutely right. I hope it didn’t come across as my way or the highway, sincerely. But there are definitely concepts that make your life easier and your drums easier to play. You can play football with your cleats unlaced, too, but it’s going to cause you a lot of problems. Tie em up any way like, but tie em up. Thanks for the comment!
True as that may be, there's still a way that works the best and ways that don't. Imagine being a guitarist and pushing back on the idea that you don't need your guitar to be intonated because you just "play the way you play." That's crazy! It might have worked for Jeff Beck, but you're not Jeff Beck. I promise 😂
This may be something your going to talk about later in other videos. Is there a difference using clear batter heads over coated heads. My thinking it is a rebound issue, but i was wondering what your take on them is?
GREAT question. There's a lot to it (and it's on my list of videos to make!), but the biggest differences are that the coating takes off a little bit of the articulation of the stick, and kills just a little bit of the overtones. An even bigger difference is when you move from a one ply head to a two ply head. There's a lot in there! Again, great question. I'll get to work on a video!
Yep! Good eye! My "main" kit is DW, but I find that the Yamaha SC is pretty much bulletproof at that price point. They tune up great, play great, are durable, reliable (round and true). I have owned several sets and LOVE them.
Great Video!! I am a guy who plays both drums and guitar and this got me thinking about the similarities and differences of how one approaches setup relative to playing style and ergonomics. Specifically about how when playing 8th notes for example that rather than playing up and down one plays in a circular (oval) motion which flattens out a bit more as I increase my swing feel. Is it realistic to say that the positioning of the toms even for the same drummer might change depending on the style of music that they are playing?
Absolutely. This is one of the challenges I didn’t mention in the video. For me it changes a little bit if I’m playing traditional grip vs matched grip, too.
You definitely got me! I had just finished recording and just hadn’t taken the gel off. I really hate how it sounds to my ears, but the mics like it for certain styles. Thanks for the comment!
@@CommonSenseMusician LOL, I'm not a huge MoonGel Hate Group, but definitely confused by people who talk about "oH i WaNt mY tOms To SinG pErFeCtlY" and then use moongels
@@MaxisaBandKid Yeah, I get it. I think it's more, "I want the sound that I want!" for me. And it's about understanding what any sort of additive does to your sound. A lot of people use them just to make things quieter, and don't take into account the tonal impact. It's a good call!
Craaaaaaaazy stuff. But he’s somebody who is doing something very intentional and very calculated. I actually love it and watching him play, but I think that kit, for me, would be very frustrating for a while. At his level, though, do what you want. Thanks for the comment and question!
Indeed. I need to be more clear that my views are my opinion, and they work for me, but they aren't absolute, and they aren't for everybody. The goal is just to give some direction and a starting point for people who don't have that yet, and maybe fill in a gap or two for more experienced players. Thank you for a very adroit comment.
Good question. Of course, it will vary. For me it's about keeping your arms in a good range of motion and able to get normal notes and shots out of the toms. So if the toms are higher, the angle will be steeper. If they are lower, the angle can be flatter. For me, I like them almost as low and flat as they go. Thanks for asking!
The problem is that we are all different heights, weights, mobility issues, arm lengths, grips etc. So what tom angle works for me probably won't work for you and yours won't work for me. Now it might be close and I might be able to play on your kit and you on mind. But it wont have the comfort and feel as your own. There is no one size fits all for anything .. even drums.
YES! This is exactly my point! Hopefully the concepts in my video help people to figure those things out based on their own physiology. Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for the effort but I do not agree with any of this. Been playing since forever, and evolve constantly with my setup based on life, injuries and wear, energy level, and mood... and sometimes just for inspiration. Never will stop doing that and go with any one standard idea of setup.
Sounds like you have a lot of experience and are thoughtful about what you’re doing with your setup. That’s awesome. This video was mostly aimed at players who either don’t know where to start or haven’t thought about. If what you’re doing works for you, sounds like you’re set. Thanks for the comment!
Phil Collins, Jeff Porcaro, Neil Peart, mic drop...I think they're pros and they all set up for ergo not jazz- I get the point, but it's an insult to other drummers for no reason
My biggest mistake in this video was not making it crystal clear that these are just ideas as starting points. In no way did I intend to criticize any other players (especially the drum gods!), or say that my idea is the best and only way to set things up. It's intended to simply give direction where it may be lacking, and a starting point to those who don't really have one. Certainly not as broad a brush as it may have come across. That said, thank you sincerely for your comment. I appreciate it!
Yeah, I’m a big believer in, “To each his own,” but with a solid understanding of the concepts of a good setup and a decent amount of experience. Some people have played a bad setup for so long that it feels normal to them. Thanks for the comment!
@@CommonSenseMusician There were only 2 correct answers that could shut down my razz: 1) I got nothin. (Good job, you win) 2) Your mom. (This was the better response but you still came out on top.)
Of course, all of this is just my opinion, but these concepts are a great starting point. As you gain experience, adjust the kit how it works for you! This video is really just to help beginners get their kits to a reasonable, workable starting point. If you're doing it in a way that works for you, AWESOME! Thanks for stopping by!
Just starting off huh? The presentation of your videos is very professional and I really like the subject matter in your headlines. Everyone online talks about what not to do but it's nice that you're bringing up these majorly overlooked details, and rarely discussed on channels like drumeo. I feel like the engineering aspect of drums, set up psychology, as well as tuning psychology. We shouldn't have any more beginners having to use trial and error to learn these basics . I appreciate what you're doing you got a sub for me. PS I am not a beginner but I'm a guitar player first I'm left-handed but I play on a right-handed so when I made it to Drums I had no clue LOL playing open-handed on a right-handed kit felt natural I wish I had some drum buddies before I locked in these incorrect habits
one of the easiest subs Ive given.Straight to the point,well presented,value hints and mature approach ticks all the boxes for me.Thanks a lot
Thanks for the sub!
Thank you for another great instructive video for those of us who have played 40 odd years to the beginner. Never hurts any skill level to gain new perspective and ideas.
Thank you! I appreciate you watching another one of my videos!
This should be mandatory viewing for new drumset players.
Thank you! I hope a few new players see it and avoid some of those mistakes we all made. I sincerely appreciate the comment!
On the subject of memory locks… I have a vintage Slingerland kit, so no factory memory locks. I use very small hose clamps from the hardware store on my rack tom holder and floor tom legs. Makes set up quick and secure. Thanks for the video!
Great idea. Thanks for sharing!
Great stuff never had aclue on How you set a drum kit up, this information is invaluable.
I just discovered your TH-cam channel and I love it! I have been playing drums for many years, but I still learn something from every one of your videos, you cover so much great information. Great stuff, keep it coming!
This means a lot. Thank you.
Throne height tip - about an inch or two higher than my knee caps works well for me.
Love it. Thank you for the tip!
@@Mr-Foad Do you play heel up , down or both?
@@user-pq9ji7kt4l heel up, full leg for low tempos, I use my calf muscles for higher tempos
@@user-pq9ji7kt4l I set my throne the same as the OP, and I'm heal up all the time. I play with the ball of my foot on both hat and kick.
Edit: I also bury the beater all the time.
Also on throne height....for those who have played for a while with the throne too high and decide to lower it, the cymbals need to come down as well. Many, many cymbals have been cracked by drummers who lowered their seat height and left the cymbals at their previous height/angle.
I totally agree with this video. I always preferred to sit higher and have my drums be lower and more flatly angled than other people would like, mainly for posture, comfort, speed, rebound, and sound.
And then there's Steve Gadd. He liked to sit low with his toms tilted quite a lot!
Yes. Gadd is one of the first ones who comes to mind for setting things up however the heck he wanted. There are a ton of players who are amazing, and I'd never want to play their kits! Thank you for the comment!
This has stuck with me ever since our in person lessons 15 years ago - big deal stuff! Great deep drive into everything!!
Hey Cody! Thanks for the kind words. Glad it has helped!
This is exactly why I use shallower and traditional tom depths. My previous kit had a 12x9 over the right side of the bass drum. Switching to a 12x8 was much more comfortable to position and play without hitting the bass drum hoop.
100% agree. For me it also helped when I went from 12 and 13 rack toms to 10 and 12.
That is great advice to setup your toms like you'd want to do rimshots off them. Even if you don't plan to. I think in the past I have strayed from trying this, because I was mounting 12" and 13" toms off a 22" kick just like you said. It puts everything super high and I am 5'8. Putting the kick slightly to the side and setting up smaller toms on a stand in front of me was the solution.
That’s an excellent solution. Probably more ergonomic in terms of your legs/hips, too. Thanks for the comment!
Great video. I've tried to set my rack toms (12,13) up on a flatter plane, but like you mentioned they either knock into each other or the kick drum, or they end up too far separated from each other. It is easier to achieve this with my secondary kit which is a 10,12. I played an open jam with the kit provided and the kit was about as flat and stealth as I've ever seen. I kept missing the middle tom and hitting the rim. It definingly would take some getting used to.
Thank you! YES - when I went to 10 and 12 toms with the shorter shell depths, that changed everything. I've also used a 20" kick for years. Open jams are always fun and a crap shoot - you never know what the "kit-uation" will be. That's really only a drummer problem, too. Thanks for the comment!
That reminds me, I only do open jams rarely, and up for about 3 or 4 songs. When the drummer says you can move them anyway you want, I say nahh, I am only going to hit stuff, I don't give a f*** wherre it is! If I can't reach it, I won't hit it.
Truth. I usually will only move the throne (usually higher) and the hi hat pedal. Maybe the snare if it's way out of my comfort zone. Other than that, play it where it lies.
For my old 80's-90's kit, as much as I want to set my rack toms (12', 13') at the way you mentioned (close to flat and not angled), I can't. I keep them on the bass drum like most kits. Doing so, and setup as mentioned, they sit too high. I can adjust the throne height to accommodate. But I'm pretty much standing already. This is not an issue for my newer kits where the rack toms are smaller (8', 10', 12'). I prefer to keep the typical 5 piece setup for my kit where the toms sit on the bass drum.
Yeah, man. Some of those old kits have huge drum sizes. It’s impossible to put them how I like them, so you do what you need to so they’re playable. Thanks for the comment.
@@CommonSenseMusician Unfortunately, i do dent the heads sometimes because of the stick angle at impact. Time to sell these old kits i guess 😂
Maybe! I do love me some power toms sometimes, though.
Great lesson! I like my mounted floor tom sloped towards me. I feel the it gets the rim out of my way for better aim at the center of the head. I'm amazed to see...can't think of his name...with floor toms sloped away from him! He does use traditional grip, which might factor into his approach. Another thing, if I use a second floor tom, I push it away from me for a better arch of the four toms. If the second floor tom is too close, it feels cramped.
Nice. Sounds like you have a great concept for your kit. I’m starting to see more modern players sloping drums and cymbals away from them, and I can dig it. And, YES, I hate when things are too close. Great comment!
Good video I mostly agree. This is good advice for beginners, especially with regards to drum throne height.
I think rack toms can be a little tricky to set up, but there's only so many places you can reasonably put them.
What do you think about the "stair step" method of rack tom setup like you might see with Russ Miller, Dave Weckl, later-career Neil Peart, and Jeff Porcaro? Maybe in their case, it was done to avoid changing the position of the hi-hat, but I've found even with two toms over the bass drum, it's very comfortable to have my first (left) rack tom positioned slightly higher than the second.
Also bass drum mounted tom positioning can be more comfortable for some people if they twist the mount slightly to the right, bringing the first (left) tom a little further away and the second (right) tom closer and more central, like you see with Ralph Peterson and Rob Brown. But this also puts the second rack tom over a taller part of the bass drum so it definitely won't work for every drummer or drum set.
YES! These are all great points.
I think the stair-step setup is actually really cool, and those names you mentioned are all legendary players, of course. My two thoughts are: 1) Whatever works, works. If you practice consistently, really any setup is going to work for you because you can adapt to it. 2) Those A+ list players have developed not only their technique, but their setup over a long period of time, so they've obviously got well-thought-out reasoning behind just about every millimeter of adjustment. Weckl is basically a research scientists when it comes to this aspect.
I've definitely played with that second tom closer over the center of the kick drum, but I usually have an 18 or 20 inch kick. On my main kit I have a 22, and for a long time I put rack toms on a stand in the position between the hat and kick, so I still had two rack toms, but they were both to the left of the kick. Weird, but again, I adapted, so it ended up working out really well.
One thing I neglected to mention is ride cymbal position. I really like mine in the position where the second rack tom usually lives (which is why I usually play 4-piece - I play a lot of jazz these days).
As you rightly pointed out, it's tricky. My hope is that this video gives some concepts to think about, and it's mostly aimed at beginner players.
Thanks for the comment! Great thoughts!
I watched this because I always can learn more. I realized that's pretty much exactly how I set up and play. One problem I recently ran into ( totally self inflicted ), is I decided I play my cowbell way more than the second tom, so I moved it to slightly off center right on the almost highest spot on the bass drum in between snare and floor tom. So depending which set I am using, I basically have to move the second tom over to the right a bit, just a slight reach. But the cowbell is dead where it is comfortable, instead of on my far right off a cymbal stand. I also switch and hit it with my left hand when the right hand is on the ride cym. Not disagreeing but my thigh is always pointing down, never level. I can't imagine the stress of being level, or of course worse , up. Thank you very much.
First, thank you for watching my video! Sounds like you are thoughtful and experienced, so I say set it up however it works for you. I've been trying to add a cowbell in a comfortable place for a while, but I'm not there yet. I'm just going to have to make it work! Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for this video. Of course, tom setup will depend on traditional vs matched grip, drummer height, tom depth (oh those vintage power toms!) etc. I love watching famous trad grip players, like Steve Smith or Simon Phillips to see how they've set their toms up! Good pics at the beginning, as well.
Absolutely excellent points. Yeah, there are definitely legends that violated every single thing I said in my video - I should have made it clear that this is a starting point and experience can really take you wherever works for you. Thank you for the comment!
If everybody heeded your advice, a significant part of even the professionals (even though it's a minority, still significant) would have to redesign their drumkit. Look at how fabulously un-ergonomic are the kits of Igor Cavalera (recent, post-Sepultura era) or Deep Purple's own Ian Paice. It's incredible they still have all their limbs in place.
Yeah, I completely agree. At the end of the day, if it works, it works. The blessing/curse of drum kit is that it is almost unlimited in how it can be set up and adjusted. Hopefully this video gives a few people a place to start with their setup and solves a few problems. Thanks for the comment!
For throne to snare relation, I like reso of the snare drum is level with the top of the throne seat noting I play mostly 6.5 deep snares.
Nice. That makes for an easy reference point whenever you set up. Thanks for the tip!
Great information as always I am looking forward to the cymbal edition, keep on doing this basic stuff.💪🤜
It's on the way. Thanks again for watching and commenting!
12m50s of pure entropy increase. Kudos!
Whatever passes the playablity test of the one drummer whos gonna play that one setup.
That is THE BEST insult anyone has dropped on my channel. Well played.
@@CommonSenseMusician
🥳
You, my compadre are spot on. Whatever works best for you. Of course, a guy/gal can and should learn from those who have gone on before, but keep what works best for you.
Agreed 100%. I’m hoping just to fill in some gaps for those who are unaware or need the help. Thanks for the comment!
We're pretty much on the same page concerning drum set-ups. It's a pet peeve of mine when I'm playing on someone else's kit and the toms are set up at weird angles. If I try to let the sticks rebound naturally, they don't come back to my "neutral' position. Instead, they'll fly off to the side, making smooth transitions from drum to drum almost impossible.
I've noticed that on kits with power sized toms -- deeper shell depths -- many less experienced drummers will set the toms at steeper and odd angles to lower the rims to make it easier to hit the heads and not bump the sticks into the sides of the drums. I find this is a mistake, for the same reasons you've mentioned. And often it affects the sound of the toms because the sticks don't strike the heads at the best angle to draw the sound out of the drums. What usually happens is the drummer starts hitting the drums harder and harder to get some volume out of them, to the point of choking the drums. With good technique, loudness comes with acceleration of the stroke -- why we start out high on the stroke for loud notes. I remember a friend of mine, who gave me few lessons, when she played, she could get really loud. She was by no means a large woman and her arms, though defined, were not beefy. It was all technique. She taught me about drawing the sound out of the drum by letting the sticks rebound quickly, to get out of the way of the head's vibration.
Many years ago, I read about finding out the best set-up for one's kit in Modern Drummer. I do not recall the writer's name, but talked about starting with the throne, then the pedals, the snare drum, and on form there. He talked about sitting in a relaxed position with good posture. He also addressed the issue of what he called the "twisted torso" effect of having the bass drum directly facing ahead -- towards the audience if one is playing on stage. Because this kind of set-up places the legs and hips at and angle -- often as much as 45 degrees when viewed from the top. But the toms and cymbals are kind of set up to be played with the drummer facing the audience. So the shoulders and torso are not in line with the hips. He recommended setting the bass drum at an angle -- with it facing a little towards the right for a right handed drummer. That way, one's body stays in a relaxed neutral position with the shoulders lined up with the hips. I've been setting up this way ever since. It's surprising how much energy is wasted when the body has to compensate for unbalanced and contorted positions.
Of course, I realize this may not be for every drummer. And some stages are too small for ideal positioning. But I recommend that drummers give this a try. It might be just the trick to finding a more relaxed way of playing.
I remember that MD article. I’m going to find and link it for my next video. Good stuff. Thanks for the excellent comment!
Mr. CSM, thank you for another informative and entertaining program.🙏❤️👏🙏❤️👏
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching another video and for the support, as always!
@@CommonSenseMusician I don’t know if I told you, but I am 74 year old self taught drummer and a retired school teacher/varsity football coach. I spent 39 years in the classroom and 45 years on the gridiron.
I love your no-nonsense approach to your videos.
Thank you. I'm glad we connected, and I'm glad some of it is helpful. That many years coaching and teaching gives you a ton of great perspective - thank you for all you did for your students and athletes! More no-nonsense coming your way!
@@CommonSenseMusician Okee dokee, I will be here waiting patiently.❤️🙏🏻❤️
First, Thanks for the content. I'm rocking a 22" kick and 10", 13", 14" and 16" Tama Starclassic Maple with a virgin Bass drum and i feel this pain lol. My solution to the fat toms over the large bass drum, was to move my 13" over to my front and center tom, and put my 10" to the right of it. This allowed me to move the larger one into the space where you would typically use a snare stand, leveling it out a tonne, and putting the shollower 10" over the bass. It's VERY close, but super playable. I do wish I could flatten them a bit more. Moving the throne position up also helped with the double strokes on my feet. Feel free to check out a video of mine and you'll see what I mean. The setup offers SO much playability with both higher and lower voices available at any angle. There is afar more to the kit then that lol.
Thanks for the comment! I just checked out your videos. That kit looks amazing and fun to play. And you sound great. Strong work! I love to see this kind of setup because it is suited to your individual playing. No rule says you have to set up a certain way. Keep it up!
My Drummer is 6'6" so sitting at his kit with a 24" bass drum and 12" and 13" toms is absurd. His cymbals are at eye level! It makes for not having to worry about too much bleed when mic'ing the kit though. 😂
Ha! I bet. Makes me think of Danny Carey of Tool. That dude is huge and his kit is insane.
Drum hoop height vs head surface is a factor too, and can be exacerbated by sticks with small beads and short tapers. You would have to increase the tom angle to avoid inadvertent rimshots, or aim for contact points always dead center - hard to do when playing challenging parts. Conversely, lower profile hoops (or heads that allow the hoop to seat lower) and sticks with big tips can get you that super parallel action - like a mallet on a timpani.
Excellent points. I was definitely aiming a little more basic, but I’m hoping people read this comment! Thanks for adding to the conversation!
As a hobby drummer I have this huge issue placing the ride between the 12 inc high tom and the 14 inch floor tom, while maintaining the same distance of the toms, and also having the floor tom and high tom on the same height, because of the 22 inch bass drum...
Also i maxed out the floor tom leg height !
You’re playing a four piece? I think the throne height is a key piece of that puzzle, too. Did you see my video about pedal setup? That might help a little, too. Thanks for the comment!
How about a follow up vid on ergonomic set ups?
Yep! Been thinking a lot about this. Thanks for the suggestion!
Thank you. Wrong tom placement is a common issue that annoys me the most.
Yeah, I hate seeing it. Lots of really good young players just haven’t thought about it.
Thank you, thank you great tips great tips take it take a look at Omar hakim set up is very interesting
Thanks for the comment! Yes, Omar Hakim is a great drummer, and plays a very interesting setup!
Common sense that’s not to common!
Great video! Thank you!
I'm glad you found my video. Thanks for the encouragement!
Well, that's exactly what my desperate drumteacher 😞 tried to make clear to me 40 years ago, but what was I supposed to do? I had two 24" bassdrums because it was completely impossible to play with just one bass drum in the 80s! And back then we used huge toms, so I had a wall of 14 by 14 and 15 by 15 toms placed in front of me...
Also cymbals back then should not be hung below 5 feet, for show reasons, the two obligatory chinas on the left and right had to hang over 6 feet high, otherwise drumming wouldn't have been possible those days... 🤣🤣🤣🤣 my God, we had to do a complete workout back then. ..😱
Thanks for this content! I really appreciate it! 👍
Thank YOU for your kind words! I started playing in the late 80s. I think I got my first kit in maybe 1987. I remember wanting nothing more than a mega kit with huge toms and two bass drums, with the, "obligatory chinas," of course! My first "pro" kit was a DW 7-piece that I faithfully dragged to every gig and set up absolutely everything I owned. It was SUCH overkill. I finally wised up when I saw another drummer absolutely killing it and sounding great on a little 4-piece kit with a 16" kick. The band I was playing with at the time had a ton of gigs, so I put together the cash and got myself a little traveler kit, and the whole world changed. I still play that DW kit, but mostly in my studio! Sincerely, thanks for the comment!
@@McCormickfarrier I can relate!
Made no sense but it sure looked cool!!!!!’
@@user-pq9ji7kt4l Waaayyyyy cooool! 🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍
I was 18! 18 and I liked it! 😆
Not too long ago, I realised I should have a 20" bass drum instead of 22" to get the front toms lower.
I have two sets both with a 22".
I love the 20” for this exact reason. Thanks for the comment!
As a drummer of over 45 yrs, I always love it when someone, anyone, wants to tell you "what is right". Really, there's just what you learned and what makes YOU comfortable. STOP thinking it's your way or the highway.
You’re absolutely right. I hope it didn’t come across as my way or the highway, sincerely. But there are definitely concepts that make your life easier and your drums easier to play. You can play football with your cleats unlaced, too, but it’s going to cause you a lot of problems. Tie em up any way like, but tie em up. Thanks for the comment!
There is a right way and a wrong way. Mr. CommonSenseMusician is doing it the right way!!!
@@CommonSenseMusician you are correct. There is a right way to set up and a wrong and there’s some gray area but you covered everything correctly.
True as that may be, there's still a way that works the best and ways that don't. Imagine being a guitarist and pushing back on the idea that you don't need your guitar to be intonated because you just "play the way you play." That's crazy! It might have worked for Jeff Beck, but you're not Jeff Beck. I promise 😂
Did you even watch the whole thing?
This may be something your going to talk about later in other videos. Is there a difference using clear batter heads over coated heads. My thinking it is a rebound issue, but i was wondering what your take on them is?
GREAT question. There's a lot to it (and it's on my list of videos to make!), but the biggest differences are that the coating takes off a little bit of the articulation of the stick, and kills just a little bit of the overtones. An even bigger difference is when you move from a one ply head to a two ply head. There's a lot in there! Again, great question. I'll get to work on a video!
Also are those Yamaha Stage Custom drums? I love them! I have two sets of SCs (an old one and newer one) and they are just such amazing drums!
Yep! Good eye! My "main" kit is DW, but I find that the Yamaha SC is pretty much bulletproof at that price point. They tune up great, play great, are durable, reliable (round and true). I have owned several sets and LOVE them.
Great Video!! I am a guy who plays both drums and guitar and this got me thinking about the similarities and differences of how one approaches setup relative to playing style and ergonomics. Specifically about how when playing 8th notes for example that rather than playing up and down one plays in a circular (oval) motion which flattens out a bit more as I increase my swing feel. Is it realistic to say that the positioning of the toms even for the same drummer might change depending on the style of music that they are playing?
Absolutely. This is one of the challenges I didn’t mention in the video. For me it changes a little bit if I’m playing traditional grip vs matched grip, too.
"STOP DOING THIS TO YOUR TOMS!"
putting moongel while wanting your toms to sing lol
You definitely got me! I had just finished recording and just hadn’t taken the gel off. I really hate how it sounds to my ears, but the mics like it for certain styles. Thanks for the comment!
@@CommonSenseMusician LOL, I'm not a huge MoonGel Hate Group, but definitely confused by people who talk about "oH i WaNt mY tOms To SinG pErFeCtlY" and then use moongels
@@MaxisaBandKid Yeah, I get it. I think it's more, "I want the sound that I want!" for me. And it's about understanding what any sort of additive does to your sound. A lot of people use them just to make things quieter, and don't take into account the tonal impact. It's a good call!
so what are your thoughts on the daru jones setup 😅
Craaaaaaaazy stuff. But he’s somebody who is doing something very intentional and very calculated. I actually love it and watching him play, but I think that kit, for me, would be very frustrating for a while. At his level, though, do what you want. Thanks for the comment and question!
Different strokes for different folks! ♫♪♫
Indeed. I need to be more clear that my views are my opinion, and they work for me, but they aren't absolute, and they aren't for everybody. The goal is just to give some direction and a starting point for people who don't have that yet, and maybe fill in a gap or two for more experienced players. Thank you for a very adroit comment.
What about height of Tom's in relation to your body?
Good question. Of course, it will vary. For me it's about keeping your arms in a good range of motion and able to get normal notes and shots out of the toms. So if the toms are higher, the angle will be steeper. If they are lower, the angle can be flatter. For me, I like them almost as low and flat as they go. Thanks for asking!
The problem is that we are all different heights, weights, mobility issues, arm lengths, grips etc. So what tom angle works for me probably won't work for you and yours won't work for me. Now it might be close and I might be able to play on your kit and you on mind. But it wont have the comfort and feel as your own.
There is no one size fits all for anything .. even drums.
YES! This is exactly my point! Hopefully the concepts in my video help people to figure those things out based on their own physiology. Thanks for the comment!
Great video! Easy to follow, concise instructions
Thank you! Glad it helped!
Throne don’t adjust up high enough for taller players.. does any body make a longer seat post for this problem??
Roc-N-Soc has an extended height throne. A bit pricey, but a GREAT throne.
@@CommonSenseMusician thanks! I will check that out tomorrow!🥁😎
I have told so many drummers about this and they just don't listen. Dave weckl and all the drummers set up to where you are even while you are playing
Weckl is one of my main references for my setup. He’s one of the best!
Fire season..I call it the, butt-clinch season. What town are you in, love your advise really helps
Thank you! I’m in the Cedar City area.
@@CommonSenseMusician nor cal just survived Park fire. Got used to fire planes
@@MarinedrummerSGT I heard that was really bad. Nothing quite that bad here, just a lot of little/medium fires. Enough to make you nervous.
I always see Sina drums playing the bass drum and hi-hat in her bare feet.🤔
Yeah, seems like there are a lot of players who play in bare feet or socks, and there are some who play in heels or huge shoes. Whatever works, I say!
Good advice. The only pro exception might be Kenny Aronoff😁. for the record, I hate that look he developed.
Yeah, I don't love it. Dude IS a legend, though!
Thanks for the effort but I do not agree with any of this. Been playing since forever, and evolve constantly with my setup based on life, injuries and wear, energy level, and mood... and sometimes just for inspiration. Never will stop doing that and go with any one standard idea of setup.
Sounds like you have a lot of experience and are thoughtful about what you’re doing with your setup. That’s awesome. This video was mostly aimed at players who either don’t know where to start or haven’t thought about. If what you’re doing works for you, sounds like you’re set. Thanks for the comment!
#1: Pro
#2: beginner/amateur/hasn't-started-yet/just-picked-up-sticks-this-morning
Correct.
Phil Collins, Jeff Porcaro, Neil Peart, mic drop...I think they're pros and they all set up for ergo not jazz- I get the point, but it's an insult to other drummers for no reason
My biggest mistake in this video was not making it crystal clear that these are just ideas as starting points. In no way did I intend to criticize any other players (especially the drum gods!), or say that my idea is the best and only way to set things up. It's intended to simply give direction where it may be lacking, and a starting point to those who don't really have one. Certainly not as broad a brush as it may have come across. That said, thank you sincerely for your comment. I appreciate it!
@@CommonSenseMusician I think the tom placement argument is almost as fraught as the grip argument...🤘
You’re not wrong.
There's only one way to set up the right way
Yeah, I’m a big believer in, “To each his own,” but with a solid understanding of the concepts of a good setup and a decent amount of experience. Some people have played a bad setup for so long that it feels normal to them. Thanks for the comment!
I think what we’ve got here is a it of ocd. Hmmmm
Oh, yeah. More than a bit, I’m afraid!
Bro what is that on your chin
Ha! I’ve spent the last hour or so trying to come up with a snarky reply, but I got nothin. What you got for me? Let the roast begin…
@@CommonSenseMusician There were only 2 correct answers that could shut down my razz:
1) I got nothin. (Good job, you win)
2) Your mom. (This was the better response but you still came out on top.)
Man, I love the internet.
Common sense that’s not to common!
Great video! Thank you!
Thanks so much!