Dear Authors: Writing Magic Systems (The Cult Of Brandon)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Here we are pushing back against some of what is being said about magic systems in the fantasy genre. Many complain hard magic systems are the way to go! Others want the return of the soft systems dominating what is popular in the fantasy genre. I say, why not rules VS wonder based magic systems?
Brandon's Magic System lecture: • Brandon Sanderson - 31...
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So where do you fall on the wonder to rule based magic systems? 1-10
If it ties in to the world building and is awesome :)
If it works thematically, then it works perfectly.
There's benefits to everything, but something too rule based and "realistic" often runs into the issue that the most flamboyant and fun way to do something quickly becomes the least effective way. For example, Eragon has a magic system where any task accomplished through magic takes as much energy as performing the act manually, and almost anything imaginable can be accomplished through magic (given enough energy). Since magic takes so much energy, the most efficient way to fight using it ends up being just snapping nerves in people's brains since it kills instantaneously and hardly takes any energy at all. While this is realistic, it means that most of the more interesting ways to express magic, such as the classic fireball or explosion, are usually redundant.
I'm not saying that a more realistic and rule based magic system can't be interesting of course, but there are dangers both in making things too fuzzy and too clearly defined.
So, given all that: I guess I fall somewhere between 6 and 8 or so? I'll need to think about this more.
For writing I fall around a 4 or 3. But when reading I like systems anywhere on the scale
All around I prefer wonder to rules but if the rules are solid and it all works together I'll read anything with magic
Don't forget Brando Sando's 0th Law: Err on the side of what's awesome.
I would prefer: Err on the side what's interesting or moving
Kreamcroque I mean is there really a difference between awesome and interesting? Lol.
I'm interpreting this as, "write the kind of magic system that makes you happy!" 🤩
@@penmaster003 there's as light difference I would say. I judge awesome to be similar to cool or spectacular and interesting can also be thought provoking. Personally I like stories that make me think on certain aspects of life. Though an awesome magic ride is also pretty cool ;).
But that's what I miss sometimes in fantasy stories, a deeper questioning of the human condition.
@Kreamcroque Ah. Okay. I see what you mean. I can understand that. But I will say that these are rules about creating magic. The magic can still be awesome while another part of the story can be though provoking. So I would say that while a magic system with a deeper meaning would definitely be interesting, I think a magic system that is cool doesn’t necessarily rule out a story being a deeper questioning of the human condition. Most writers’ try to tackle that with character arcs, plot, or world building other than the magic system. Though I will say that using the magic system to convey that is a pretty cool idea.
I've watched Brandon's lecture and he definitely does not say you have to have hard magic. BUT, if you're going to have magic save the day or solve the ending, then it's more satisfying if that magic is understood, that's it
Yes, the most important part is not to pull a magical solution, that hasn't been established, out of your ass at the last minute to save the day. It's deus ex machina and it just feels lazy and cheap.
Indeed. Brandon said himself that his first law of magic is basically a rule of setup and payoff. If you use magic as a payoff, you need to set it up properly, or it won't be satisfying to the reader. If you don;t set up the magic, it's usually more effective to have it make things worse instead of better (good examples: Gandalf uses his magic against the Balrog, result: we lose Gandalf & Kvothe uses Naming, result: he nearly commits murder in front of many witnesses / bad example: Richard Rahl uses subtractive magic, which we've never seen in action before in the series, result: the bomb that was going to blow everybody up is now gone).
I like how you’re talking about magic systems when your zinc tattoo is showing
Should we feel manipulated? Are we being rioted?
If he had a Brass tattoo I would be worried...
Oh that's what it was.... I always believed that this was the Euro currency because it's so similar... Oups
He's a bit too under the influence of Sanderson systems of Magic.
For his own book, it seems too close to be original, his system is basically Lashing, but with gravity instead of Storm light...
@@Xxkiwii973xX , why would.... anyone, brand themselves with a money symbol?!
I am cool with either end of the spectrum. Just don't break the 1 rule of hard magic systems. If a character breaks the rules of said magic system there better be a damn good explanation that makes sense.....
The protagonist is a chosen one and limitations don't apply.
Sanderson's 0th law is essentially "break the rules when it's awesome." It contradicts his 1st rule (and he's aware of this): "magic is more satisfying when the reader understands its rules"
I don't agree with either of those rules. The reader doesn't have to fully understand the magic system for it to feel satisfying; but breaking a rule definitely takes away from said satisfaction. So, it's better to not be extremely explicit of your rules to give yourself some room for awesomeness.
EX: X-men and Avatar have hard rules, but they never explain them in detail. So, there's always room to push said rules further to have awesome fight scenes.
@@mariosblago94
I thought his 0th law was referring to ideas and general direction? As in, "err on the side of what is awesome" when _creating_ your magic system.
It just seems so antithetical for him to say it's okay to break your magic system's rules, as long as it's awesome.
Breaking a rule of a hard magic system can actually raise the stakes if it's given the proper attention and importance in universe.
In Fullmetal Alchemist for example, the hard rule of Alchemy is the law of "equivalent exchange": you transform matter that is already there, you can't create it.
However, further down the road, we meet characters that can create matter out of thin air, and that's actually a big deal and even in universe, the reason why they can do it comes as a shock to both characters and readers.
I think hard magic systems gain a lot from bending and breaking their own rules, but they need to rebuild something in their place.
@@arenkai I was about to talk about how FMA's whole plot is literally a two kids breaking one of the most important rules of the hard magic system of the story and dealing with the consequences of it
Just watched his latest class on TH-cam and my respect for the guy tripled
The classes are AWESOME!
I accidentally disliked this comment. So I undisliked & then liked it. After reading your comment I agree.
Check the older ones as well. So much awesome!
Brandon is a great teacher, his classes make you start getting really excited to write. Love them!
@@ryanratchford2530 nobody cares, disliking a comment does literally nothing.
Dangit, I thought this was a place to sign up for the Cult of The Sanderson.
One thing I absolutely love about Brandon's magic system in Stormlight is the way the unlocking of new magical abilities is tied to character growth, powerful realizations and emotions, discovering personal truths and ideals etc. That sort of thing really resonates with me and definitely fills me with wonder. Yes, there is the "hard" aspect of the magic too, in the way stormlight actually is used and how it effects the world, but it's the combination there of both the soft and the hard that makes it a truly great magic system, imo.
some thoughts i've had that's semi-related to this topic for a while now:
the problem with brandon's laws is that everyone is quick to talk about his first law about understanding the magic; but everyone forgets that his also talks about how the limitations & implications of the magic in the world can be much more interesting :(
i also have a feeling a lot of people don't understand brandon's first law in the first place? NONE of his laws says you need rules in magic - just that if you're going to use magic to solve problems, you should probably foreshadow it. Which is something that applies to general fiction anyway??
anyway, it always irks me when people imply brandon's laws are anti-soft/'wonder-based' systems :/
You're right. The first law basically just means the author shouldn't pull a solution to a problem out of their ass and say "because of magic". That goes together with the second law about limitations.
The laws are basically just general writing advice like "keep things interesting" and "don't use Deus ex machinas"
And... Brandon has a lot of space for wonder, even with all the rules he has made already
Also Everyone forgets the 0th Law: Always go with whats awesome
@@TimTYT Yeah, I agree. I also think that people are putting too much emphasis on being able to perfectly define a magic system. For me, the best magic system is the one or however many it takes that fit whatever world and characters you're writing about. Having a single magic system with the same rules for everyone all the time regardless of circumstances to me often doesn't seem like a terribly Immersive thing, depending on the setting.
@@ascalon8001 Personally I like rules for magic systems. It doesn't matter how loose they are, but just like in Mistborn you don't have to just have one magic system or that you can have a magic system that can be created base on the user take the Nen system (I know I'll loss some people with this refer) from Hunter X Hunter(anime/manga). It has rules for it usage, but given the users talent they can practically do any with that ability.
The only cult I'm in is The Cult Of Daniel
Psyix praise our dear leader
Package crabs unite
Yeah and the sacrifices are the packages we send to him !!!
Does the Cult of Daniel promise its followers eternal rest in the Fiddler's Greene?
Jukka J. Rintala Eternal rest in the package pile
I've been watching the Brandon Sanderson lectures on his channel and the man knows his stuff ;)
Because I've been reading fantasy my whole life, softer magic or should I say mysterious/wondrous magic is my favorite. Not to say having rules takes away from that because it doesn't. Brandon's magic systems are great but it always seems to me that he is taking a cue from science fiction and making magic be like a technology almost. When you read older stuff like Tolkien, Brooks, Eddings, Donaldson, et. al., I would say that with them magic is inherit and well established in there worlds. You know it is there but isn't always used as plot devices. The one rule that I think all magic based powers is sacrifice, their should always be consequences.
Yeah, I agree. I enjoy reading books with harder magic systems, but I often feel like the focus on them is edging the genre closer and closer to science fiction. I don't need everything in a fantasy to be explainable. The key is not to use it as a deus ex machina
Well said!!! I totally agree!!!!!
I personally consider magic and power systems to be separate entities. Magic is more than just fireballs. I think the best way to describe it is a style of writing where a childlike sense of wonder takes over. Then you can have the most sci-fi things be reduced to "magic" through how you describe them.
Magic systems and rules can exit, but they should never disregard the beauty, horror, mystery, unpredictability, and grandeur of magic. Patrick Rothfuss, Susanne Clarke, Ursula Le Guin, Michael Moorcock, etc. are quite exceptional at this. I love Brandon Sanderson's stories, but I feel he may be guilty of turning magic into a tool based power mechanic.
I want to hug this person.
Even GRRM, however minimalistic and soft his magic might be.
See, what I have as an in progress thing is an opaque magic system. The story sits at a point where the magic is new to the world, so while the magic must obey rules, the characters within the story don't know anything much past what they can directly observe and reason out from that.
So even though I'm just doing this for fun, I have 2 documents - one is the story, and the other is the 'magic rulebook'.
I tend to enjoy the rule based systems more. As someone who has read a fair amount, but has a lot still to read.
Maybe in some cases yes, but there are still lots of parts where there is unpredictability and mistery in Brandon's stories. Simply because there are so many levels to that magic and it unveils gradually, you sont know what can they do and what will happen next. But i agree with the last part.
I personally love hard magic systems much more than soft ones, but I feel like it's unfair to make a direct comparison.
To me, the magic systems in Sanderson's books feel much closer to for example Asimov's laws of robotics than to "magic".
What makes them fun is the ability to look deeply into their social, technological and sometimes even philosophical implications, not the "sense of wonder" they create.
It's like trying to decide which is objectively better between science fiction and fantasy: you can't, because they are different generes for different audiences who are looking for different things in their stories.
Brandon's magic still manages to be wondrous even though he uses hard magic systems because there's always so much more to discover. So I would still classify that as very much still magic.
Well said! I agree!!
@@nachikahn4923 Mystery and awe arent the same (I think awe better exposes the difference than wondrous) mystery is in the future awe is in the past, I think thats what Daniel was talking about.
If your magic system isn't hard, neither am I.
Eiroth if your magic sistem isnt soft i aint dreaming about you. Ps: Dont spoil on the answers im on book 4 🤗
@@tomascanas9143 I finished a while ago 'Dream of Spring' !!!
You read like someone whose favorite spell is Bigby's Bad Touch.
And with the WOT avatar 👌
That's terribly funny.
My favorite magic systems in any medium are from Hunter x Hunter and JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure, and rules are absolutely necessary for me for years.
Didn’t even know of many soft magic systems until I started reading older fantasy novels a few years ago.
I just can’t get into a story as much when I know the plot will be resolved by just using whatever magic is convenient at the time, personally.
You could still have absolutely bat shit crazy things happen and any power you could ever think of with both of these magic systems, but they have categories and limitations you know?
In JoJo’s people could warp reality or have a power that’s as dumb as a spirit talking behind your back to annoy you to suicide. In HxH, you could have someone spawn a giant 100 handed Buddhist statue to fight for you faster than the speed of sound, or something as trivial as mixing the properties of gum and an elastic bungee substance, and you could still have these people compete.
Harder magic systems show the ability for characters to be creative as possible to overcome the odds like soft magic systems can’t do. It’s not as satisfying when someone can pull a random spell out of the air that just works without explanation. It’s cooler when you know that someone pushed the boundaries of their creativity and did something no one could ever expect within the constraints of their abilities to pull it off and beat impossible odds.
Edit: but, I will never bash what others like because I don’t like them. I don’t care enough to bother, and people have their own preferences.
I agree with your opinion but I struggle wether thes systems of hxh or jojo can trully be called rule based or hard on a one dimensional scale. I think it would be more accurate to say that the abilites within the system are hard/rule-based, yet the systems themselves are quite (although not entirely) soft, seeing as the author can introduce any ability without having to justify why this specific ability came to be.
This also leads to these authors most often evoking wonder in the reader by showcasing an ability the reader has not learned about thus far, thereby relying on the soft aspects of their systems. Consider for example the introduction of the World or the fight scenes with Netero.
This two dimensional scale for magic systems also work for other works and lets us understand better why Brandon's magic systems feel so distinct. If we take Allomancy as an example you can see that Brandon's most used systems are hard both on a systematic and on an ability scale. Brandon is only able to introduce new abilities/metals by making their existence further the rules the system is based upon.
I agree with the previous poster. HxH is also my favorite magic system, because it has both a soft and hard component. The basic principles of Nen (ten, zetsu, ren, Gyo, en, etc) all have clear explanations and limitations s and are something any skilled Nen user can do, which gives a nice baseline for battles
But by adding Hatsu to the mix, the author is able to add in any crazy ability he thinks up which keeps the battles and scenarios constantly fresh
HxH is the same as Wheel Of Time, weaving is the hard magic but you can technically do whatever you want if you make a new weave.
I appreciate most of your post. But did you just imply that Hisoka could stand even a fraction of a chance against Netero?
JustForTheTunes just a fraction of a chance. After all, in the dark continent, Hisoka is considered a monster of the A rank, and Meruem had that rank. I don’t know how, but it’s in the manga.
MAGIC SYSTEMS ARE OVEREMPHASIZED IN THE MODERN FANTASY COMMUNITY.
I’m glad you made this video. IMO fantasy doesn’t need a ‘magic system’ at all, hard or soft. I.e anything by Neil Gaiman. If you want a rigid system, go for it. If you don’t, go for it.
I’m just tired of hearing about magic system before I hear about plot, character, world building, etc.
Partially disagree. Fantasy is all about constructing a world that is considerably different from our own, and since magic (presumably) doesn't exist in our world, it has become one of the defining and fundamental differences between our world and your typical fantasy world. Take that out, and what do you have? You have a world that is essentially like ours, but with different continent shape and history, a world with different kinds of humanoids. It ceases to be Fantasy and shifts more into some blend of Sci-Fi and/or Realistic Fiction.
You NEED some hint of magic in a fantasy world, full stop. It doesn't have to be prominent or a major part of the story or setting. But it has to exist, otherwise, it isn't Fantasy.
@@UltimateDurzan Disagree! I think the most prominent example are the first book or two of the Song of Ice and Fire series. Sure dragons and magic and all that becomes more prominent late on I'm the series, but initially it's much more vague, and there isn't a promise of any more. It's all history, legend, and rumors, and while that adds some amount of mystery and wonder, it's far from magic, yet I wouldn't say that the asoiaf series is not fantasy.
@@UltimateDurzan
You could have other laws of nature for example instead of a magic system. I don't know of you've read The Edge Chronicles, but in that series there's materials with properties that don't (and can't) exist in our world.
@@Horky_Porky so glad I found an Edge Chronicles fan here. Other examples of this are in Frances Hardinge's works - in her book, A Face Like Glass (basically a reverse Alice in Wonderland but totally it's own thing) there are perfumes that can control minds, cheeses that can grant visions, etc. I highly recommend Hardinge. Deeplight, Fly By Night, A Face Like Glass and Gullstruck Island/The Lost Conspiracy are brilliant, unique fantasy that stand apart.
@@mr.e.1460 but it's still has magic. What isn't certain is if there are actual gods or not, but the Others are magical as dead people "come back". It isn't a magic system, maybe, or it's the most soft magic system of them all as nothing is explained although you know it follows certain rules. Like nature, it has its rules so it's more realistic. But it isn't the main focus like maybe mistborn for example
Some of my favorite executions of magic: Malazan, Memory Sorrow and Thorn, Black Company and Wheel of Time. Overall I want magic to be wondrous/dangerous, with guiding heuristics for the reader and user’s understanding.
Before even watching the video: as an aspiring writer, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE that you're doing a Dear Authors video like Merphy. These things are just awesome
One of my favorite series without a hard magic system in modern times has to be Malazan. Warrens, to be honest, make no sense in terms of how their power works or how they’re used. But they do their job because every time a warren is used, you’re left in awe. The sieges of Pale and Coral, the characters Beak and Quick Ben, when they magic is used you have no idea how they can do what they do but the wonder and awe you feel is so effective. I wouldn’t have Malazan any other way
Oooo! Sounds cool! I LOVE/live for wonder in books I read! I totally gotta check that book out!!
Best way in my honest opinion. The wonder of Quick Ben unleashing three Warrens, or the Warlock King's full unveiling of Emurlahn just floors me. Letherii grand spells take my breath away. And just the metaphors being made real through the magic cuts to the feels for me, like with Beak for instance. Magic being systematized undercuts what magic is.
Daniel, heads up, you misspelled ‘systems’ in the title
Thank you. Late-night editing issues
Daniel Greene No problem
I wonder where Daniel got the idea for this "Dear Authors" stuff 🤔
@Author Omari Cunningham , actually no, it's more like Merphy "came up with the same idea" around the same time...
Though, she does have the habit to "pull" heavily from other channels...
You’re moving too fast lemme see that tattoo! 😤
It's the allomantic symbol for zinc from Mistborn for everyone not aware :)
I think there is a picture on his Instagram
I would like to say that I personally loves The Color or Magic by Terry Pratchett because it was so far from the hard magic systems and rules I had read perviously. Yet it was still just wonderful in the wacky world he crafted.
I think I'm a 5 on that 2 to 9 scale. I LOVE harder magics because you can play with them! You KNOW what can and can't do so you can actually picture using it. On the other hand, that moment when the gods decend, watching a wizard reshape the world, when a concept like Love or "Let There Be Light" or "an attempt to communicate" is given direct, obvious power... I love that feeling just as much as spending a half hour designing a fanfiction power set using someone else's magic.
Hello future me had some really good videos on hard and soft magic systems, where he talks about their strengths and weaknesses and what you have to consider.
is that yasuo?
@@slumberstudio4757 yes
@@luscarora703 asshole
Yeah! I love his videos!!!
What I enjoy the most in a magic system. If the rules are explained, but the author still finds ways to do something suprising.
So you could say inspiring wonder in a rule-based magic system.
Reason why Avatar will always have the best magic system to me. It’s rules are very simplistic; certain people can control one element (aside from the Chosen One). But each time someone comes up with a new kind of bending, it doesn’t feel like cheating because they’re still controlling their element. Metal has earth in it, all living things have water in them, and lighting is made up of the same stuff as fire. The system rewards those who think outside the box and take the time to understand their element. And it’s so satisfying to see a character find a solution when their element isn’t present (Katara bending her sweat comes to mind).
And then there’s the spirit world which adds a big dose of something mysterious and wonderful. Until Korra gets into it in season 2, at least.
I'm really glad you decided to add to your Dear Author series. A part of what makes Booktube so fun is hearing other content creators analysis of a subject and us all discussing it amongst each other. Very pleased!
I always thought of it as magic as science and magic as mystery before I learned about the hard/soft system of classification. Oddly enough, magic as science has been the norm in Western culture for centuries, way back into antiquity and also the relationship between magic and philosophy. It was one of the noble sciences along side astrology and the rest but didn't survive the scientific revolution even though astrology did (as entertainment of course).
The problem is magic doesn't exist so it remains aloof and mysterious but the belief in it during the past meant that people tried to explain how it worked and how to manipulate it. Both wonder and rules have been a part of magic since the beginning. It creates its own conflict.
As for the rating of 1-10, I like both and would say that it depends on the story.
If you'll have Hermetic Alchemy in your work, Im all for it. Stick to all the Paracelsian rules you can gather up!
But please dont turn the divine powers of olympian inspired gods to the same shape. Writing after tempelate is infinitely lazier than not flashing out the entire heneology of your every side character.
For example, middle earth's geology is ateociously stupid. Does anyone give a shit?
Some thoughts about the virtue of soft magic systems:
Hard magic systems with clearly-cut and well-known rules would only really be classified as "magic" by readers in the real world, as they are abilities we know are impossible. If a magic system is completely known in its fictive, internal world, I don't see why it would be regarded as magic and not a branch of science or a natural aspect of the world. The word "magic" has a certain inescapable connotation of unknowability and mystique, and this dimension risks being lost with a hard magic system in which every action and reaction is accounted for.
In addition, many of the biggest complaints about soft magic is that it acts as a crutch for authors to lean on when they write themselves into corners. This is definitely true in many cases. My problem is that the conclusion that is implied by this statement is that this outcome is made less likely or even impossible by the implementation of a hard magic system. Say that my hard magic system incorporates abilities that people have that are activated by a fluid that people have a certain amount of in their bodies. My hero is running out of fluid as he fights against a barrage of enemies, and it looks like he is about to run out and be killed. He ducks into an abandoned house, seemingly on his last legs, when he luckily stumbles upon a potion of fluid-replenishment. He chugs it down, replenishes his fluids, and is able to carry on the fight. Let's say that this replenishment potion is a well known and well-established aspect of my world, so readers can't just say I made it up on the spot. It makes sense within the parameters of my magic system. That doesn't, however, make it not seem like an asspull. I still allowed my hero to prevail against seemingly insurmountable odds, and I did it without ever contradicting my own magical rules, but it still felt unearned and overly luck-driven.
Again, that isn't to say that all uses of soft magic systems aren't also asspulls, or that every author who uses hard magic systems is actually just hiding their own asspulls behind a hard magic system. What I'm trying to say is, there's no such thing as a bad magic system, just bad authors.
well put.
Any magic system that contradicts itself is bad other then that yea.
@@wingsoffreedom3589 Depends on context, I would say. One of my most favorite works of fiction constantly contradicts itself in its use of magic, but it is very clearly done intentionally. What it tells the reader is that the magical aspects of the story are fabrications; things the (very unreliable) narrators of the story have added to entertain and confuse. The contradictions are part of what tells you to look past those fabrications, and figure out what’s actually going on beneath the surface. I think that in this specific case, it’s actually really clever.
Of course you could still argue that the magic system in it is bad, because it is. But that’s not the point of the story, and it’s actually made better for being bad. XD
i tend to like soft magic systems more, but only because i really love when the magic is embedded in the world somehow. maybe the nature does weird shit that cant be explained, maybe there are creatures that defy all logic, maybe gods roam the world...
to me what the main characters can do and why and for how long and at what cost exactly is really secondary to the cool stuff that exists out in the world.
Me too!!!! I love you for saying this!!!!!! Ever since reading Sanderson I feel like I HAVE to write hard magic systems even though that's not what I like as a writer! Thanks so much for providing some love for soft magic!!!!!
My 2 cents on the hard vs soft (severely flavored by my training as an astrophysicist): every magic system is a hard magic system at the most basic level, sometimes we just don't understand it (and it needn't be understood, not even by the end). I see Brandon's rules mostly as rules on how to narratively use magic; if I as the author perfectly understand how it works, but the characters don't, then it should still be used as a soft magic system, and not solve plot points out of the blue.
That's maybe Sanderson's idea in his classes, yet he's not always able to follow through within his books.
Always felt, as a reader, I knew way too much about the magic systems in Sanderson's books. Way too explicit, even boring at some points.
thats something i think it needs to be adresed, in the end for a magic to be usable it needs to be kinda consistent or otherwise using it would be imposible, so even if the author doesnt notice it (because there are some authors that CLAIM their magic is "ufatomable" and "cant be explained by science" even when it has clear and repetible rules, like for example nasu the creator of the fate series is very suceptible to this way of thinking) every magic has internal consistent rules, the diference between a "hard" and a "soft" magic system is how much the characters in story and the people in the audience understand how this magic works, if all they know is that you move your hands and fun stuff happens then its a soft magic system, while if they understand that moving your hands in specific patterns create certain repeatable effects that can be consistently used and have ways of studying and improving said patterns to make them stronger then thats a hard magic system
The irony of the fantasy community being limited by rules... Come on, it's in the name!
I love the magic in ASOIAF. George is such a good writer that magic never takes the center stage, yet when characters are resurrected on the page you buy it totally. Very like Tolkien’s soft magic.
themonk8928 THIS! I have never had more “wonder” at a fantasy magic system than I do for ASOIAF. I’ve spent countless hours digging into his lore and the magic trying to figure out what it all means. It’s like a five and take, because I want more hints from GRRM but at the same time that can serve to take away some wonder I have for the world. He’s doing an amazing job balancing this IMO
Magic is so subtle in ASOIAF that when it happens, you're just like: Oh right it exists yeah cool. lmao
I only saw the tv show. (his writing is not for me) but I didnt buy it the magic system. I thought it was a lot of deus ex machina imo
@@wolkcumulus2547 I mean we see magical shit in the first scene of the show, the others are magical creatures, same with valyrian steel. The books do a wayyyy better job at this and highlighting magic
I've always been baffled by this sentiment that reads like "the best thing about GRRM's magic is that there's so little of it!"
If your protagonist uses his / her magic to solve a problem: Hard !
If a side character uses magic, or something happens in the world: Whatever.
I feel my main issue with the "wonder based" magic systems is that they tend to turn into a deus ex machina device. Rigid systems can do that too, but the "a wizard did it" can only be done so many times before I start to just...stop caring about things in a story.
I agree. There should be some constraints at least, even if there are no strict rules.
This is pretty much the writers abusing their magic systems to ruin their own story for no reason. If you're incapable of writing a soft magic system, just don't do it.
That's why big moments of soft magic need to be foreshadowed pretty heavily. There has to be an expectation that something big is about to happen that involves soft magic, or else it's just coming out of nowhere.
With hard magic, you don't have to foreshadow it so much because the possibility is already in the rules.
@@LagMasterSam Most of all, the big moments of soft magic systems have to feel earned and make sense in the larger context of the universe.
Soft systems create moods and feelings, hard systems propel the story forward in a satisfying way. The problem is when someone thinks a mood element is "wrong", because it doesn't propel the story in a satisfying way. Yes, it's not supposed to. It's a mood element or thematic element, not a plot element.
For example, Return of the King movie. Gandalf makes a beam of light to drive the Nazgul away and saves Faramir. That is not supposed to resolve the conflict of the story. It's supposed to show how powerful Gandalf is (inspire awe), but also how no magic can save humanity from their own human failings (strengthtens the theme). It is not supposed to give a satisfying resolution to the story. That's why it works. And people trying to belittle it because it's "deus ex machina" fundamentally misunderstand the reason behind it.
Hard and soft systems have different reasons for their existence. A deus ex machina is not just "a wizard did it". A deus ex machina is a PLOT POINT RESOLVED in an unsatisfying way (by "a wizard did it"). If it is not supposed to resolve a plot point, then it is not a deus ex machina.
I'm a 2. There's no way to bore me faster than explaining how magic works. Just let me see it in action. I'll figure some shit out on my own. For the love of god don't start telling me the rules.
Reading Sanderson has changed my perspective of what magic can be, I definitely don’t enjoy some books with soft magic systems I’ve read as much now, which is a shame.
There's a name for strict rules based magic systems, where everything is consistent, explained, and predictable... it's called sci-fi.
Wrong.
When you mention showing the magic before explaining the rules, so the readers can "enjoy a flashy show at the beginning", the first thing that comes to mind is the intro to The Way of Kings.
Szeth is Windrunning his way through the palace, using all three abilities of his Lashing power to kill guards in various ways, summoning and dismissing his Shardblade. The "camera" is following the whole way, explaining everything as he goes... and it is AWESOME! (Plus, it serves the secondary purpose of foreshadowing, that when Kaladin starts manifesting some of the same powers later on in the book, the reader recognizes what's going on long before Kal or Teft do, because they've already had the rules laid out and know exactly what they're looking at.) In this specific case at least, I think that leaving out the commentary explaining how the magic worked would have detracted from the scene and from the broader story.
I don’t know. I didn’t feel it was awesome at all. Probably because at the time, I wasn’t yet invested in the story, or any of the characters. So all I personally was able to think about was how terrible an assassin Szeth had seemed at the time. I understood why later later, obviously, but it didn’t make much sense to me at the time.
you talking about 'things being beyond our comprehension' reminded me of my homebrew DnD setting. There are several part of my cosmology where literally the answer is 'i don't know why that works the way it does. im sure it makes sense to the nth dimensional beings that run things...
This is my magic system, it’s called L’ndith /ləndiθ/, meaning “stone craft”:
-L’ndith can have many potential uses, both necessary (transportation, medicine) and trivial (cosmetics, entertainment), but it is seldom used (usually only by elites and scholars) because it can be dangerous. L’ndith manifests itself through precious crystals, called khridhvel’nt /χriðvɛlənt/, roughly meaning “stones of wizardry” in the tolad /tɔlad/ language. Users summon l’ndith by properly reciting tolad incantations while making physical contact with khridhvel’nt. If used properly, l’ndith can help its users solve problems and give the user powers such as teleportation, healing, disguise, etc.
-L’ndith is mostly used by elites and scholars, as they have the resources to obtain khridhvel’nt and learn incantations in tolad. Although extremely rare, a handful of individuals (regardless of class) are predisposed by birth to contain quantities of khridhvel’nt in their blood streams, which enables such individuals, called l’ndrogh /ləndrɔʁ/ (stone-blooded), to use (or be used for) tolad incantations without crystals.
-Natural khridhvel’nt is a limited resource which is strictly guarded by henchmen who work for the elites. However, some scholars can secretly synthesize artificial khridhvel’nt by using fragments of natural crystals to convert other matter into it. Elites consider this conversion theft, and make attempts to persecute scholars and l’ndrogh for their usage. L’ndith can become addictive if used multiple times during a short period. For incantations, unrounded vowels require two khridhvel’nt (for height and backness) while rounded vowels require a third for roundedness; length and stress also warrant more. Voiceless consonants require two (for place and manner of articulation) with voice and ejectivity also warranting more. Users can be defeated by simply running out of it or using it incorrectly.
-After being used for an incantation, khridhvel’nt quickly sublimate into an odorless, toxic gas which can cause temporary paralysis/vision impairment if inhaled (although this usually isn’t fatal and lasts on average temporarily for ten-15 minutes). Large scale sublimation can cause pollution and collateral damage to ecosystems. L’ndrogh are sought after and are particularly vulnerable to abduction/slavery for their natural abundance of khridhvel’nt. Criminals are often punished with harmful incantations (in addition to the temporary paralysis/vision impairment). Khridhvel’nt can be used to cure debilitating illnesses, but there is a price to pay; that illness must be transferred to another lifeform (usually to the aforementioned criminals). Anti-elitist possession of khridhvel’nt is often severely punished by the elites, who fear class mobility from its usage by lower classes.
-Khridhvel’nt were created naturally by k’al’nv’t /kʼalənvət/, roughly meaning “paramount comets”, which impacted and their supernatural minerals became embedded within the ground. Eons later, the Tol tribes settled throughout the rugged landscape which was shaped by craters from k’al’nv’t. As the Tol civilization developed, farmers, paid laborers, slaves, and other workers participated in architecture projects and engineering endeavors, including construction, agriculture and landscaping. One day, according to legend, four Tol slaves were ordered by their master to explore a cave in search of fresh drinking water. One of them brought a torch so they could see through the darkness and deep within the cave, they discovered beautiful rock formations covered in crystals. After one of the slaves yelled in amazement, the unstable ceiling caved in and they were buried in an avalanche of crystals. They were wounded and crystal particles became imbued in their blood streams as a result. Only one of the slaves was still conscious afterwards and made cries for help. To his amazement, the stones surrounding his body sublimated and then he passed out from blood loss and the toxic fumes. Hours later, the four slaves regained consciousness in the cave and miraculously escaped from the pile of crystals. Their language, the Tolad language, was the first language ever uttered within the crystal’s vicinity, which triggered a mutation that only allowed the crystals understand Tolad. There may be undiscovered crystals that haven’t been exposed to Tolad and thus available for another language. They were physiologically altered by the crystals, it fused with their dna and several of their descendants became l’ndrogh from the khridhvel’nt dominant gene. After emerging from the cave, the four men used their new abilities to free themselves from slavery and become a quadrumvirate which would unite the Tol tribes beneath a federation. Their cooperation and even distribution of land to rule within the federation enabled an era of peace and prosperity for the Tol federation, which balkanized after their deaths. During the power vacuum, Tol elites usurped control of separate territories and became fiercely protective of the khridhvel’nt, often warring with each other over the crystals. Scholars were employed by the elites to study the khridhvel’nt so that elites could utilize their power.
-Even today, l’ndith is strictly guarded by the elites and their henchmen, although its existence is no secret. Most people among the lower classes could benefit from khridhvel’nt but most wouldn’t dare try to obtain it from fear of severe punishments by the elites. Additionally, Tolad language resources are scarce beyond the elites’ mansions. Elites and scholars have established a khridhvel’nt society to regulate what Tolad words and phrases can be used for incantations. These approved incantations are recorded in a text called t’avdru /tʼavdru/ (meaning “the canon”), which is updated every year. Some rogue scholars illegally practice their own unapproved incantations. Although there is no particular set of clothing that distinguishes users, elites are (needless to say) the most well dressed of the classes and thus, fine linens and robes could possibly indicate usage. However, not all elites can be bothered to learn about khridhvel’nt or how to use it. Additionally, scholars, who are the most familiar with khridhvel’nt, are different from elites in that they generally prefer to stay away from attention. They often disguise themselves among the lower class, which also include some l’ndrogh. The lack of incentive to procure khridhvel’nt or resources to learn the Tolad language has made many lower class citizens indifferent to l’ndith.
tl;dr: rich guys use magic crystals to do stuff sometimes.
For wonder Brandon can always envoke the spiritual realm.
Magics systems that hook me as a reader start soft and end hard. I like when a book throws me into the thick of things and presents visuals where all sorts of crazy stuff is popping off and as the story progresses how the magic works is gradually revealed.
Another thing I particularly like (when well-executed) are stories where there is an established in-world understanding of said system but throughout the course of the story we find it not to be an accurate model of the magic system and we follow some maverick type character that pushes the boundaries of that knowledge and uses that magic in ways unforeseen because he/she has a better understanding of how the magic itself works.
Brandon inspired me a lot to work on my own system. I was lost for a good while but I think I'm starting to get a good idea. I think it's sorta in the middle at this point, more towards harder, I suppose.
Basically all magic is sorta radioactive, using it tends to be very bad for you in the long haul in small/controlled doses and really bad almost immediately in big/uncontrolled doses. Depending on the magic it can turn your skin to bark or replace an eye with flower petals, maybe just something so simple as coughing blood. Different cultures react differently, some see mages as monsters, others as wise sages and in some parts of the world they are nobility so they wear somewhat revealing clothing so they can show off their "marks".
Wow, this is really cool! Care to elaborate? I am creating a magic system for a tabletop RPG and I've been trying to implement something like this (magic "seeping" into the user and creating side effects) for AGES, so I'm interested in how you are making it work. Of course, my needs are different to those of someone just writing a story, but any form of inspiration helps!
@@Fbleh Thanks and while I'm not completely done I'll try my best to elaborate.
So on the small versus big dose analogy it's pretty simple, you want to throw a fireball or do you want to do a scorch an entire village? Well if you throw like 100 fireballs chances are you will start to see the strain on your body and if you scorch an entire village in one go, you might just topple over.
The controlled aspect comes into how much you will be affected and how you can avoid being affected. People do everything from trying to channel through a "focus" (think a wizard staff but really it could be any object), some even train to ignore pain as best as possible.
An example is one of the main characters tries to cast a spell but his opponent is too quick and cut his arm as he is almost done saying the spell, this of course means he completely loses focus and he can't control the spell, so it sorta short circuits and his arm blows up, nearly killing him and killing his assailant and obviously leaving him without an arm.
I didn't know exactly what you wanted me to elaborate on, so it's still a bit general and got a bit long, sorry.
@@six2make4 Wow, that sounds interesting. What's the plot?
@@jwinget1999 Thanks. So the story is set on the onset of what seems to be the second Elf-Human war in history. It will follow characters from both sides. Part of the kicker is that the one who started it, dies relatively early on (he is not a main character, just an important figure to the plot), so it also quickly descends into arguments of just stopping it and the need to continue. I also intend to pull from my knowledge of military history, so it won't just be "Then the armies clashed", there will be actual strategy and tactics utilized when it comes to the battles.
It's of course the VERY short version.
@@six2make4 How close are you to finishing it?
I like hard magic systems better but that's really only because I like following the characters line of logic on why they do things and why some things aren't options and predicting what is going to happen next. When I'm right it feels like a reward for paying attention and that I understand the direction the story is going. Or even better when the character surprises me with something they can do or a way they can do it and it makes perfect sense. I love that feeling that the characters put just as much if not more thought into what their magic can do. It also tends to give me a much better understanding of how difficult a piece of magic might be instead of a meaningless statement that says its hard but doesn't really give any reason why.
Soft systems while you can still have everything I said above is a lot more open to change at a drop of a hat which means sometimes it doesn't matter how close I pay attention something that makes no sense happens that takes me out of the moment. I also find chosen one type stories appear a lot more in soft systems and on top of me just being sick of seeing them so much also don't really like how characters just get special powers that apply only to them that make them near invincible or break any rules of magic which in hindsight can retroactively take tension out of past situations which can kill reread value which I'm already not great with.
Obviously everything I stated above if done well then great but I more often see them done badly in a way that I don't as often see in hard systems. Hell breaking the rules of your magic system is something I would say most hard systems do at least once in their story but there's usually a lot of justification on why that works and why its not a reliable or repeatable thing with the first example coming to mind being from Full Metal Alchemist with the philosophers stone. Does it break every rule of the system? Yes but it also runs off of 1000s of souls and that's if I low ball the number. Ed and Al pretty quickly get a solution to their problem of their bodies but they refuse to use it for ethical reasons which leaves these highly dangerous stones lying around that is the man thing powering the villains of the story and can make any alchemist a powerhouse, making them more of a disadvantage then an advantage.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Preach Daniel Preach! Never lose sight of the subjectivity of it all.
On a scale of 2 - 9, I'd say 5.5.
For me, magic is very much in the reason of the religion or philosophy is the magic world. Learning the how's and whys and expansion of knowledge or capabilities of magic has theological or philosophical implications, as to the nature or the intent of the divine, and whether it's a moral gift or a divine deception.
If it's
Explainable
Replicable
Empirical
By definition, it's science, and what we call hard magic in our magicless world and audience, is simply alternate natural science.
im on the LAST book of the 9 or so book Malazan series and i'm just starting to understand its magic system. it has to be one of my top 3 fav magic systems of all time... its so complex and cool!!!
Hard magic seems such a 21st century thing. Before (and with) Tolkien magic was all about mysterium, I think. An elf appears (child-sized mythical being) and abducts a child into the hidden elf kingdom where amazing things happen. A Greek god comes by and gives a person some disease because he was incensed. There are no rules what can occur. If there are rules, they are not known to mortal humans.
So how does a plot work? In general, the heroes are not magical, and only gain access to magical events through character interaction and earning the magical prowess of the powers. The unknown magic is then limited by the known: how people interact.
Think one of the bigger problems is so many fantasy magic systems have been done that it hard to get originally ones, and then when you have stuff which steps off the line for the rules people say it's trash like Shadversity and his other channel reviewing WoT.
The fantasy genre is more and more turning into the sci fi genre of the 70's > writing for the bubble, not new people. Reading some off these books feels like homework, and Brandons prose suffers terribly. Hes producing books more then writing them.
Right ? These writers produce one big tomb after another, with more or less the same blue print. Sometimes two in a year. It's bread writing. It fills you up, but there is something missing.
@@spiritualanarchist8162 There's no love there, man. It's just a factory. Authors used to write books, but with these authors I feel the books write them. Shame. I'm still waiting for the next thing that blows my mind.
@@spacegerrit9499Yes it's sad. There are a few gems now and then , depending on one's taste. (Joe Abercrombie for example took me by surprise ) I just download audio books from the library , youtube, etc and listen to them before going to sleep . If i like something i try out the book. But most of it is a waste of time.
I may be biased, because I study physics, but I absolutely love exploring how the world works, and how to use or exploit it's laws. When it comes to like really 'hard'/rule based magic systems (especially Brando), I tend not to view them as 'magic', because there are some fundamental underlying rules that govern that universe, and the 'magic' is just kind of a consequence of that. Im sure to someone in an alternative universe with no semi conductors, computers and other electronics would seem like magic, but to us, they're just part of the universe. I personally just really like that rigid structure with underlying laws, and the 'magic' just sort of follows logically
The fact that Sanderson managed to write books that are accessible to a lot of people does not necessarily make them good. The only thing it has proven is that his works are simple enough for most readers to pick up.
I had a hard time getting through his books. I felt manipulated most of the time that I was reading it. Everything is so structured and formulaic that I always knew when things were not going to work out for the characters. They succeed at first tries. There is always some forced character grow, where someone needs to overcome some personal flaw. If you ever followed any courses on creative writing, or watched Sandersons lectures, there are just no surprises to be had in his work.
A lot of people like to critique writers like Rothfuss or even Tolkien because they are meandering and take a long time to get to the action in their stories, but at least they have some personal style and prose.
And about the magic-systems. Well I personally would rather have a sense of wonder then reading about someone playing around with physics. There is very little magical about Sandersons magic. Its just a tool that is there to use.
I actually agree with most of the observations you’ve mentioned. One of the things I will refute though is the idea that magic simply being a “tool” takes away from the “wonder.” I think it being a system in itself is it’s own wonder. Similar to when a unique creature has its own excerpt or when a new location has its lore explained, a hard magic system can bring a sense of life to the story that wasn’t immediately tangible. Granted, I do think it’s a these systems are a more modern sensibility. Hordes of writers and artists have attempted world building at numerous levels with descriptions of settings, locations, sciences, species, and wildlife so detailed you’d mistake them for journal entries. Yet many lack any semblance of characters. In my opinion, it’s kind of shown a shift where creators try to get people invested into a world through the world itself rather than unique characters. I’d argue Sanderson himself seems to bank on having accessible characters and prose to sell the world and plot. Whether this pans out in the long run I’m not sure but hopefully we can still have elaborate systems that mesh together with those with more niche writing styles and characters.
4:00 you really had me here because I love fantasy and magic as much as any fan of the genre does, but I have different expectations concerning magic depending on the different mediums of the genre; when I'm reading or writing a story, I prefer soft or low magic settings because usually those stories will be from the point of view of regular people, therefore I can relate to them more when something magical happens and it feels more immersive reading or writing that feeling of wonder (or horror). If I'm playing a game on the other hand, harder magic systems are my way to go because there has to be limitations on what characters (controlled by players or game masters) can do with any given rule system; magic systems like in D&D's current might not work for writing stories but it works well enough for games. From my point of view, in writing I expect magic to come into play at rare instances and when it happens its scary, in games it's a generally accepted part of life in most game worlds and is part of peoples' "tool kits."
with the books that are objectively bad versus just not your preference, I think that also definitely goes the other way as well. When someone says they like a book it's important to keep in mind whether the book is objectively good, or just really connects with what that person happens to enjoy.
For me, I love a world that has both. Like in Harry Potter, there are bits that are rule based. Swish and flick means levetation. 2+2=4 but then there is the deeper, mystical part of it all. "The wand chooses the wizard, Potter!" I feel like this feels like real life. Where we have a great understanding in some areas, like land species and history. But the farther and deeper we go, the more big and mystical it all seems. So I love both in the same world I guess.
I'm having trouble placing the Magic System a friend and I are writing within the "Rules-Wonder" range. But, I have to say that how I (like to) write a magic system is different to how I like reading a magic system. I think whatever Sanderson is doing is brilliant and learning about the how system works is an experience on its own.
Greetings, fellow author! So, I watch your videos fairly frequently and in this particular video there's one subjective point I found myself in a bit of disagreement with. That happened to be the notion that problems (whether they're solved through magic or not) having anything to do with stakes. I attached a video by Film Courage where they interview Alan Watt, author of 90 Day Novel and 90 Day Screenplay, in order to emphasize the point I'd like to convey in order to strengthen your own writing process.
I share his opinion that the stakes of a story (for the reader, not necessarily the character) directly correlate to the theme, and the life or death of the protagonist's perspective that reframes the theme at the end of the story.
Readers, and us as authors, view the world through the protagonist's perspective and ultimately we either want to see the maturation of their perspective (if it's a flat arc) or the complete spiritual transformation of their perspective. It's not so much about whether they go Super Saiyan 2 or 3 or God, or whether they learn to use horseshoes to travel incredible distances or how to control Koloss through Magneto powers (or if only there wasn't a certain metal pierced in the body preventing god level powers).
What really creates stakes are problems that can't be solved. Alan's interview covers his perspective on this. Basically any problem that can't be solved is a dilemma, and dilemmas can only be resolved by creating a new problem. So in this sense, there is always conflict because the attributes of the story are always evolving into some new dilemma. Some new problem that can't be solved just by killing a snake with a magical sword, or throwing a ring into a volcano.
I think this is why Tolkien's work resonates so much, as put forth by HelloFutureMe, wherein the theme is so intricately laid throughout the completed works. Evil corrupts everything, even a little hobbit, but eventually evil will destroy itself through its own corruption. So as a reader of this work, the framing is that we hope Frodo is strong enough to destroy the ring, but the transformation tells us at the end that he isn't. The framing was never about whether Gandalf the Angel would come back to life, it was about whether being pure of heart was necessary to do good things in the world.
Every other point you made in your video was spot on, but I just wanted to offer some possible inspiration while you're drafting your manuscript, and possibly redrafting it seven or eight more times as I am! Good luck!!
th-cam.com/video/tBR5BCLkHDE/w-d-xo.html
You forgot the t in systems 😏
As long as you are telling the story you want, as long as magic is serving the story well, write it however you want. Sanderson's laws are just explanations of how to help make magic interesting and not a deus ex machina. LOTR follows this perfectly despite having real soft Gandalf magic. And you don't have to have tons of fancy obvious magic to write a great fantasy book. I'd say the magic in Lies of Locke Lamora is pretty soft, but it also isn't driving the conflict or solving the problems of the main characters. We don't need super rigid rules and understanding. The point of that magic is to be terrifying as you don't know what the enemy can do.
For real though, the push and superiority people give hard magic reminds me of when movies were pushing gritty realism. Fanboys would stan these movies and say anyone who didn't get it or didn't like the gritty realism, or in this case hard magic, just aren't as intellectual. Like, sure it's "realistic" and can be really great and cool, but I also think that what mode of magic you want to use really depends on the writing style and the story you want to tell. Like at the end of the day its literally magic, it does not NEED to have hard and complex rules. I learned this VERY fast when I started writing a couple months ago and got really into Brandon Sanderson.
my writing is very Wonder-first other than vague "concept" rules as I call it. like Magic invites this mindset, or it invokes this type of concept like Domination or Control, etc. I typically have multiple magics in my setting to incorporate multiple of these, but their "casting method" is usually the same. Outside of this, I also base a lot of my magic on folklore, so a lot of things come through in that Magic in my settings are rarely purely secular, and are more of an art than a science
That’s why Multiple magic systems can be really good, Name of the Winds, Last Airbender, Wheel of time, they all give you variety
Only LOTR and Tolkien are the enough proof that you don't need hard magic to write amazing fantasy story not to talk about other thousands and thouthands books
Conan also has no explanation at all, and Elric only very little.
Personally, wonder magic is the coolest thing AFTER the curtain gets pulled back and it was actually hard the would time, or it's something that one semi/omnipotent character does in high stakes with the cost being screentime (ei Gandalf). When I finally realized i liked rules in my magic suddenly reading came back into my life with a start
What you say in this is literally Sanderson's first law. As you go from undefined to defined you get more satisfying use of the magic for problem solving, but less wonder.
My personal favorite magic system is the one from the wereworld books. It’s interesting because although it feels very hard, it’s never really explained to the reader, so it still feels fantastic.
it's 5:00 AM... eh i don't need sleep
Tolkien used hard and soft
Gandalf was a person of wonder to our POV (Bilbo/Frodo) so his magic was wondrous, while the Hobbits' magic is very structured, JR lays it out, their magic is their stealth etc and the rules of the ring as they apply to a hobbit is also clear, put it on makes you invisible except for your shadow in bright light and so on.
So good authors use what is appropriate.
I loved this topic, this video was very smart and something I didn’t consider putting a lot of thought into
Let's stop labelling magic systems as "hard" and "soft". We should call them "erect" and "flaccid" instead
i agree
Hey! When your book is done I'll totally buy one!
A perfect way to explain the perfect balance between soft and hard is Avatar the Last Airbender. (Edit: also one of my favorite magic systems that I didn’t talk about in my other comment regarding JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure and Hunter x Hunter since it didn’t come to mind at the time).
There are specific rules for each element for bending and pros and cons for each, but the possibilities are only limited to the imagination of the bender.
When you see a bender with one element beat Aang with control over multiple or find new ways to use the element (lightning style and blood bending being an example) to overcome enemies, it’s exciting. Then, you could have other things outside the magic system give you wonder and fear like the spirit realm in the story.
I highly recommend you look up a video about how nen works in Hunter x Hunter though. It’s absolutely amazing seeing how much creativity and amazing possibilities come out of something so rigid. Every fight is so thought out and that power system is so well put together.
I'd put myself at about a 6 or 7. Right now I'm working on one that is the only magic system in the world and open enough that ultimately anything is possible. The day-to-day of it though has enough rules that the users can't, and it can be normally be taken away or countered by non-magic users.
I would love you to do a video about the Wonder based magic systems and recommend books with such systems. It's something much less talked about
The end makes me think you might enjoy the Hunter x Hunter manga or anime (2011).
I was looking for a comment that mentioned Hunter x Hunter (2011) xD
Togashi is the true god of 'magic' systems; Sanderson is nowhere close to what that Dragon Quest fanboy and hiatus-junkie did at HxH
@@Scaion Yet even God has back pains
What if I tell you...
That good writers don't need hard magic?
That's the best remark here!
I'm working on a Science Fantasy novel with a magic system I'd put at 3 on the 1-10 wonder to rules chart. I'm trying to keep the science hard and the magic soft
Rules can really add interest and exciting moments that are very engaging, very dramatic fights with twists and turns and you remember when characters use the magic in ways that makes sense but you hadn't thought of it till then, very good stuff. however some systems can be to complicated or the explanation bogs down the story and can hurt the enjoyment of the story which should always be the first goal. But it is nice to know that magic isn;t just a dues ex machine that can do whatever the story needs, though can happen in "hard" magic systems as well cause of loop holes or unknown stuff shown later.
My favorite magic system is that of Warhammer Fantasy. Magic is raw chaos from outside the universe, which when it enters our universe with all its pesky "physics" and "causality" refracts into 8 "winds" that are attracted to and permeate different kinds of matter, colour and thought; Hysh (white, zeal, light), Azyr (blue, intellectualism, the upper atmosphere), Chamon (gold, logic, metal), Ghyran (green, nurturing, plantlife), Ghur (brown, savagery, animal life), Aqshy (red, passion, fire), Ulgu (grey, confusion, mist & shadow) and Shyish (purple, fatalism, graveyards/battlefields & execution blocks). Each wind of magic has its own properties and things that it is best at, white mages are best at casting out demons and gold magicians are able to alter the properties of metals, for example. It's not super hard though, kind of a 5-6, and each wind has philosophical elements to its power in addition to physical ones. For example, a red wizard is naturally a great battlemage, being able to call down rains of fire and the like, but can also inflame passions, casting effectively a love spell or otherwise making an emotion more intense.
The last topic is 100% true, we would be like:
Hi I'm Gandalf and this is ...JACKASS!!!
In the lectures he mentions the point of the hard magic system is based around foreshadowing. If it's going to solve plot problems then it has to have rules and logic.
By virtue of that if the system doesn't solve problems but is a feature of the world then you don't have to have this to make the story satisfying
I checked out The Way of Kings to see what Sanderson's work is like and couldn't get into it. It bounced around from character to character with a dense web of history and magical gobbledygook without giving me time to figure out where we are or to connect with anyone. If the magical system becomes more important than establishing characters, the book ceases to be storytelling and becomes a physics textbook in a foreign language.
I've never read a book by Mr. Sanderson.
I am looking at the Stormlight Archives.
Will I like it ?
I would start with one of his smaller stories like Mistborn or Warbreaker
@@jgrowland24 arent those young adult fantasy ?
Alek I started with Stormlight Archive and I really enjoyed it! Best thing is to read the series that interest you.
I recommend reading the Emperor's Soul, if you can get your hands on it. It's a short novella that only takes an afternoon to read, yet really captures what I love about Sanderson. It gives you a good idea of his style, writing, how he writes magic, and a limited glimpse of story and character, and if you like it, then you can jump into Way of Kings with the trust that the thick tome will be worth the read. (And if you don't, it'll only be one afternoon lost)
I need a book where it's just teens/ young adults figuring out magic and doing irresponsible things with it 😂
That but with middle aged office workers 😂
The issue I have with rigid rules, fully explained magic systems is that at some point they stop feeling like magic. I really like magic systems where you can tell that the author has actually researched real magic - whether it's modern paganism or Seiðr or Egyptian magic. I would encourage all fantasy writers to look into actual magical practices for ideas. Plus, you get amusing things like the Romans using curse tablets to win chariot races or generals getting mad at the chickens for not eating because they can't attack until the birds give them the right sign.
I think you understated that hard magic systems often times are more woven into the worldbuilding and people like me who thoroughly enjoy that part of fantasy love that.
I feel like mine's an upwards-of -6; like, it's definitely intended to be more rule-based, but still needs a lot of hammering out to get there
I think Brandon would agree with you. Hats off. Like Brandon said, these are guidelines for people starting to write, they are by no means laws of writing magic.
having fun with your magic system does make it stand out I think of Aang from ATLA spinning the marble and also flying around on an air sphere
I mean... you just described hard and soft magic but gave them different names for no reason. "rule -based" and "wonder-based" are literally the definitions. And it's not like hard magic is in any way "superior" to soft, it's not like people just throw out any soft magic book out the window.
And Sanderson's zeroth law: "Err on the side of what's awesome." Never forget.
I personally like the wonder aspect but when that's played up and made a more important aspect
I want there to be answers, but I don't want them given to me easily - I want to work for them, maybe even have to try working them out myself first, and perhaps that's what irks me about Sanderson sometimes. He's always too happy to give away the mystery and tell me exactly what was going on. In the same vein this is part of why I love Malazan - it feels like there's answers and that I can work them out, but for a lot, I'm not just going to be told it later; the drive to work it out is what keeps me going in the hope that I will piece together more information later on.
I think I understand why your videos are so good. Other than the very good content that is. You make it feel like your viewer is important and included. That is something that you do very well. Love the video and your content. I'm definitely far on the rules-heavy side of the spectrum. The cosmere made me get back into books and that might be part of the reason but I really just love it when you can sit and think of ways to use the powers that might be possible for the characters and of course what dumb shit you could be doing with them :D Cheers mate!
The last time i read a published work was in 2014 and it was Jim Butcher's Dresden files. And since then i have read only my little pony fanfiction and listening to you is neat
I'm 100% a 9 person. I'm a writer myself, and I think it's perfectly possible to achieve wonder-esque magic with hard magic systems. I often think of it like science, where there are always possibilities if you have made your magic system right.
I also think it puts a reader on a smile's face when they see something clever. Whilst I wouldn't dare say a single example because I actually want to publish my books. But I know that pushing character's gifts to their limits is not only fun for me but incredibly fun for the author. I find wondrous magic systems are, on the other hand, actually quite boring to me. I don't feel like characters earn what they achieve through magic much of the time. This is actually my only problem with The Lord of the Rings. Gandalf seems to be able to do be great some times and useless other times and it all makes no sense.
But that's just what I enjoy.
I kinda roll my eyes a bit when I open up a video essay about magic and world building, and their only reference is Sanderson. He makes a lot of great points and has a lot of good advice, but he has a very specific taste, and a great deal of his writing is focused on creating these systems and working within them, but his way is not the only way and it's not where fantasy has its origins.
I would just like to note that Sanderson doesn’t say that the rules are the “right” way to write fantasy.
In his lectures he expands upon the idea that if problems are solved in the plot using magic, the rules should make sense while if they are just there for a sense of wonder the rules are less important.
The rules are more to avoid a “god from the machine” moment.
It's very frustrating to me how many people look at Brandon's Laws of Magic and their takeaway is that hard magic systems are the only good kind of magic system, because that's specifically not what the rules of magic are about. The first law, which is what gives this impression, is just saying that if people are going to have a problem be solved by magic, the reader needs to know that the magic works that way. If it doesn't, you wind up with the plot being condensed to "a wizard did it!"
I think Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay has the best magic "system" for me. There are rules, clearly defined rules that govern magic and its use, then there are two rivals from another place who seen to break those rules and nobody can replicate or understand how or why.
The mythic nature of the two antagonists is elevated and reinforced by their ability to work outside the magic system that constrains everyone else. Which in turn leads to the protagonists using magic to solve some problems, but can't use magic to solve the main problems.
I really like magic systems that have enough rules to prevent magic from being the catch-all solution and help establish the wonder of a small group who seem to operate outside the bounds of those rules without explaining how or why.