Fantasy Magic Systems RANKED!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- My ranking of various magic systems from accross the fantasy genre.
Merch: teespring.com/...
Book Cover Judging Videos:
Legendarium: • Let's judge the covers...
Geekritique: • Let's Judge Books by T...
Patreon: / danielbgreene
Amazon: www.amazon.com...
Discord Server: / discord
Twitter: Da...
Instagram: / dgreene101
GoodReads: / daniel-greene
Subreddit: / danielgreene
![[ TEASER ] เงาะป่า - วงL.กฮ. | TMG RECORD](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/M4ObdFfcPww/mqdefault.jpg)
![ลองสั่งของจากแอพ temu ถูกจริงหรอ?? ( part : 1/2 ) [โกงไหมครับ ep.89 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RTcZSQTiDZw/mqdefault.jpg)
What ranking video should I do next?
Authors!
Villains
Villains
Villains and/or world-scale/epicness
Worlds
brent weeks lightbringer books made me understand my optics topic in physics class. That's S tier right there
Lol that is awesome.
Haven't read Brent Weeks yet, but on the surface the magic system might have been inspired by MtG as far as color=type of powers associated with it?
Damn I’m in physics I’m definitely reading this before we get to optics lol
@@vaportrail85 Not really. I really like the Color Pie of MtG and have read quite a lot about it but they're completely different. Basically, drafters can produce a substance called luxin from light that enters their eyes and is stored in their bodies. Luxin comes in seven different kinds based on seven colours eg red is a flammable glue, yellow is an unstable liquid that turns back into light quickly, blue is a hard crystal and superviolet is like invisible tendrils. How they're used (and combined) in combat is really creative.
@@vaportrail85 The magic system was not, but Nine Kings sure as hell was!
I personally love how the magic system in Stormlight ties in with developing the characters in a very organic way so that each new ability feels like it's earned
I think by macguffin you mean deus ex machina. A macguffin is an object in a story that the characters need to get that the reader doesnt really care about(the philosophers stone or something like the Holy Grail), while deus ex machina is something that just conveniently gets characters out of sticky situations (Sword of Gryffindor out of sorting hat or the eagles coming in Return of the King).
The Eagles in The Return of the King are not a deus ex machina. They're part of the eucatastrophe within the finale.
@@lautaro6561 Could you point out a flaw in Lord of the Rings? If you find yourself unable to, then you are not an objective critic.
@@judewakefield7213 Yes, it has some flaws. Like all books. But the mistakes are so tiny that all the great things in the piece just exceed them.
It Is one of the best books ever written, whose author was also a quite good person. As simple as that.
@@lautaro6561 Thank you, I wanted to know what I sounded like when I was younger, and you were pitch perfect.
@Jude Wakefield Enlighten me then. What is so wrong about the book?
Allomancy alone is already way more complex compared to other magic systems in fantasy. And then there's Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. Plus compounding as a bonus. Mistborn is like a love letter to magic enthusiasts.
It's almost too much, though.
Era 2's fight scenes are well worth the investment. I can't think of a cooler magic system with grounded rules then to add guns into the mix created something I didn't know I needed in my life.
Investiture is so complex its basically science. Although the magic systems are different they all behave under the same set of rules and fundamentals, even allowing you to "hack" on system to another. Brandon is a genius.
Technically compounding is not a special feature of the magic systems in mistborn but rather a feature of all magic systems in the Cosmere. It just doesn't come up as often as resonance. A great example of non-Scadrial compounding is what Hoid is able to do by having both Yolen lightweaving and Rosharan lightweaving.
Ehhhh
One of the things I love about the Stormlight magic system is it is a forgotten magic system. There's no wise mentor to come along to explain everything. There are orders of knights radiant we haven't even seen yet! I like that Sanderson has drawn out the discovery of the magic system because the unraveling mystery of the magic system is a real hook for me. I also really enjoy how, in the absence of magic wielders and the traditional avenues of magical access, society on Roshar has figured out how to somewhat access magic via technology (ie fabrials). I hope we get to see some magic vs science/technology type ideas explored in later Stormlight books.
I tend to like super hard magic systems less because I prefer it when it is very mysterious. Stormlight bridges this gap brilliantly, since we get so many more questions than answers. Really gets my imagination spinning.
The interlude chapter where they’re just measuring spren and noticing how they act when they’re being measured is just, 100% chef kiss
Steph and Less it’s dumb that he put an at a A when lord of the rings doesn’t have how any of it works and you need to read an encyclopedia for any understanding of it. Lord of the rings is a great series but it’s magic system is lacking
@@Tolandruth Tolkien died before he can fully flesh out the universe, and LOTR has always hinted that the book is just a small window into the world of Middle Earth.
martypython yeah that’s great and all using he died as a reason for his magic system just happening doesn’t make it one of best magic systems. Soft magic is lame because it just happens so any time you run into a problem like giant balrog you can just go my magic can do anything so I am got this. Where a hard system you would have to explain it. I love lotr but be objective here how can you say it is better then any of Sanderson where he has solid rules and everything works in that universe instead Gandalf can do anything.
Daniel Greenes Ranked videos, ranked
Stormlight for me, is by far the most interesting magic system. 10 different magic systems with overlapping abilities, thats pretty fascinating to me.
@@Simon_CVR as I said
I love how we get to learn about the system with the characters
You could look at Stormlight as 3 magic systems or 30, depending on if you find each Surge a separate system. If yes, then its 30. If no, its 3: Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the Old Magic. :)
The magic in Stormlight is amazing. It's honestly not even 10 magic systems. Between voidbinding, surgebinding, fabrials, the 3 realms and perpendicularities, the 10 Radiant orders, the shardblades, honorblades, and the shards themselves, there's like over a dozen different variants or applications of magic. It's by far the most loaded magic system I've ever seen for a series.
I think it will be a 10 for me but.... It's currently a bit wishy washy for me. i feel like he's holding info and ideas back for later books( cus well, 7 to go) while in misbourne I got it all in the same amount of time, laid out extremely well. and ya ya triplet trilogies vs and epic but well magic wise he hooked me again with era 2 ( magic, not necessarily chars or plot) because he took a well established base magic and twisted it. like I already saw god level peeps but now I'm so invested in these (Demi-god?) level characters and possibilities... just brilliant.
McGuffin is just a plot trigger, not necessarily a "Deus Ex Machina"
I´m thinking Daniel maybe doesn´t know what McGuffin means. He seems to say it a lot whet he actually means deus ex machina.
What? Harry Potter is literally filled with McGuffins, almost every book centers on one. Half the magic system seems to be McGuffins.
Christian M From your statement it is unclear if you know the definition of the two terms. Deus ex machina is when something comes out of the blue and saves the day. A McGuffin is the thing everyone is after that the plot revolves around. The philosophers stone is a McGuffin and the fact that Quirrel can’t touch Harry in their final confrontation because of... love is a deus ex machina. In my opinion there are more instanses of deus ex machina in the Harry Potter series but there are certainly McGuffins too.
@@emilromin9863 Sooooooo...... I'm right? Just because J.K. Rowling doesn't know how to set up and foreshadow scenes doesn't mean the magic system isn't built around mcguffins... Time turner, marauders map, gillyweed, sword of griffindor, basilisk venom, flue network and far far more. Your first post is still wrong because there are a lot of both, and Daniel was correct in stating that there are McGuffins galore.
@Christian M Um... no, sorry. You still don´t get what a mcguffin is. Just because the thing Daniel confused mcguffins with also occurs in HP does not make him right to use it wrong.
Also from your examples Im very confused and actually curious what you think a mcguffin is. I thought you simply mixed up mcguffin and deus ex machina (common mistake) but marauders map and flu network are neither of those. Will you please tell me what you think a mcguffin is?
@@emilromin9863 Lol, u r digging yourself in a hole. Daniel was right in what he said, you just made a dumb point, and now you are trying to act like you are right. Sorry but there can be plot conveniences, plot armor, mcguffins, deus ex machina, plot holes, and more bad writing habits all in the same story.
Daniel Greene isn't invested in Surgebinding. He hasn't said the words to his spren, has he?
I will read the books I have not read.
Life before Death
Strength Before Weakness.
Journey before destination
I will protect those who cannot protect themselves, btw isnt the Magic system called lashing? The one used by windrunners i mean( btw i havent read oathbringer yet so dont spoil past wor)
my favorite magic system in fiction is Nen from the manga series Hunter X Hunter. It has very defined rules to it while allowing every character to develop their own unique ability. My favorite aspect of it is that people can put conditions on their ability in exchange for greater power - which is a great tool for the author to express character through their use of the magic
The Eragon magic system deserves a mention. It had a very elegant explanation for word-based magic systems, and very clear rules about the limitations of magic. The mind-magic duels were also cool.
@@andresreyes2907 damnit eragon is so unoriginal
@@andresreyes2907 when I was younger I read the first three books, and never got around to reading the last one, so recently I decided to reread the series. I only got about 150 pages into Eragon before being so fucking bored. Not even because of the plot but the prose and writing in general is just... bad
@@jaimelannister1797 same, one thing I do like about erigon is the aspect that magic draws from the casters own energy and can kill the caster if to much energy is used cast the spell. The high language magic aspect of it also makes it so you need to know what is being said or as shown, a blessing can become a curse so precision of language is important for complex casting.
@@seanrea550 yeah the magic system is the best part of it. But I feel like whenever there’s just gibberish being said by the characters it takes me out of the moment a little. And using too powerful magic draining your energy isn’t the most groundbreaking idea though.
@@jaimelannister1797 no, it is in alot of RPGs as well. But it does put an immediate cost to magic. It also sets a limit in that you cannot use more energy than what you have or have stored, bonded dragons and direct transfer excepting.
Leaving out Warbreaker?
I would say it is one of the books with the most integrated magic system. Even more so than Mistborn.
Rank fantasy villains! Some if they are revealed later may be a little spoilery but could be cool!
Also best supporting characters!
The only magic I'm invested in in Stormlight (hahaha get it?) is Kaladin's, because it's such a powerful motif for him. The use of flight to show him rising above his depression, especially by literally defying gravity, refusing to be held down.
EDIT: Also, as many have said, Kingkiller deserves a mention for its magic, regardless of how you feel about the books.
True. The magic is nice. Still.
We know you don't like Kingkiller, but as a scientist, Sympathy is the most accomplishly accurately and beautifull magic system!!!!!
I wasn't a fan of the book. But I will applaud that magic system.
Same.
Laughs in fullmetal alchemist
@@oscarchavezavellan2738 Yeah, exept for the human transmutation part, wich makes no sense as there is no real big differences between an animal or a human.
@@ninj-as7710 That's strictly not true though. If you wanted to make a real life argument you could, but in the series there was easily a difference. It was obvious that the 'soul' is what that invaluable part was that cost so much, which is entirely why one could argue that animals are every bit different where it counts. Most religions don't have animals having a soul or at least to the same degree as humans. Which FMA definitely takes most of its religious allegories and inspirations from Abrahamic religions which they don't at all in them.
So makes perfect sense in the world that it's in, otherwise they'd just fill up Philosopher stones with animals instead of people.
One thing that you surprisingly didn’t mention with Harry Potter is how good it shows how magic can be used to assist in daily mundane activities, as well as the opposite end of the spectrum and used as a weapon.
he said that in the beginning when he talked about earthsea, tho.
He also didn't mention how it ruins any kind of stakes and fundamentally breaks the world. It should be C tier at most.
@@LPChipi totally agree. To damn many plot holes caused by the magic system
So a washing machine and a gun...
And how people can legit spam Killing rays without ANY repercussions like what’s the point of other spells if you can jus teleport and spam
I think any of Brandon’s Cosmere gets S tier for me, especially in how they can all work together. Seeing an example of Warbreaker’s and Mistborn’s magic in Stormlight or khriss’ writings on the magic systems and trying to define them. S for sure.
Demon Cycle did a good job of evolving a magic system, to the point where the difference between the characters across all books is staggering and I think that kind of evolution deserves S or A tier.
Lightbringer gets A I just think too much is left unsaid
Rage of Dragons is B tier but utilized so epically.
King killer would get B tier because some of it is nice and scientific and other stuff is too Ex Machina
Harry Potter gets B
Inheritance gets C
Poppy war gets D maybe E
Sword of Truth gets E for sure, I felt the same way
I can't agree with Harry potter being A tier- waving a wand and saying the magic words is pretty much the most stereotypical magic you could find. Also, as much as I respect Tolkien for bringing about the Fantasy genre, I don't think his magic systems really make it up to S-tier- they're just not well defined/explained, and while I'm willing to give him leeway since he didn't have much existing stuff to build off of, I definitely wouldn't put LoTR over inventive magic systems like the Lightbringer or Stormlight systems that are both unique and tied more directly into the story and characters.
What needs to be remembered about Harry Potter was that it was initially targeted towards kids. Even though it has branched out to all ages it's unfair to compare it to some of these other systems. As a book that was targeted to kids, the magic system is simple and wonderful. Kids just want to wave their wands and make cool stuff happen. Not a complicated and hard way to produce magic.
In regards to LoTR, or any fantasy for that matter, there’s a beauty to lack of definition/explanation. Sorta puts the magic in uh, magic.
With that said when I want some nice defined
rules for my universes I tend to stick with scifi, when it comes to fantasy I want it to feel like a fairy tale or a classic mythological tale. Concrete rules and worlds tend to ruin it for me. But to each their own!
@@SuperSecretAgentNein In LoTR magic is not really something people "do". It's more a part of them / part of the world - even the wizards are mostly wise men, not spellslingers.
I really liked it, but it's hard to say that it's really a magic system (bit the same with WoT dreamworld - is it magic or not?), which can make it hard to compare to the others.
I thought we where never gonna mention Terry Goodkind again?
In educational context his name is allowed. haha
@@DanielGreeneReviews Hmmm.. I will let it slide this time Daniel! But I am watching you! o.o
Daniel, you've only ever read Wizard's First Rule by Terry Goodkind. Would you rank any of these other series after just having finished one book?
Not suggesting you read more of a series you clearly dislike, but at this point, leave him off your rankings. Whether you mean to or not, it comes across as bashing.
Green Daniel would never had let that slip.
@@jarock-wh9lj I mean like Daniel has said he hates the guy and with good reason.
I can't believe you've blasphemed Stormlight's magic system like this >:(
Yeah, there's channeling (all three types), Tel'aran'rhiod, and wolfbrorhers, but there's also: Min/seers, Aelfinn/Eelfinn, portal stones/parallel worlds, bubbles of evil/the dark one himself/Blight, Shadowspawn abilities (myrdraal, draghkar), Dreaming (as distinct from Tel'aran'rhiod), Talents like Foretelling and seeing ta'veren (which don't seem to involve channeling), ta'veren twisting of chance, Mashadar/Fain/etc., the Ways, stedding, treesinging, the Nim and their abilities, and I'm probably forgetting some.
this really puts into perspective ha
Some other magic systems you could explore:
Raymond E Feist - Riftwar saga
Garth Nix - The Old Kingdom series (has interesting necromantic magic)
Robin Hobb - Elderlings series (starting with the Farseer Trilogy)
Lia Goldie he could also add: LE Modesitt - Recluse(Order & Chaos), Imager series (…well Imaging😀)
Dresden Files magic system is so seamlessly self-concealing and culture agnostic, that I think it is the best magic system possible for an urban fantasy. You can literally think of any historical event or ancient tale and find away to fit it into the Dresden-verse. The world that Jim Butcher presents, is actually believable that people haven't discovered the magical world and why wizards haven't taken over the world.
I completely agree!! I was crestfallen that he didn't mention it because IMO I think it is one of the best!! 👏🏻Cheers mate!! 🍻🍻
Strangest analogy of the day, “Miley Cyrus, Wrecking Ball level...”
Ikr... Like is that Bad or Good?! 🤔
Scott Garrison Yes!
Not a single C-tier entry? I think you should have included one more fantasy series to put in C-tier, just for the sake of giving us a more well-rounded ranking.
IMO mistborns magic system is about as close to perfect as your gonna get. It is really detailed qnd well defined, you always know whats going on and what action can bring what reaction.
Sanderson is brilliant across the board at doing consequences, and each magic system in Mistborn is all about consequences. I love it oh so much.
Eh. Sure, it's detailed and well-defined, because there are only a few dozen arbitrary things it can do. It's hard to really geek out and theorize about any of the Mistborn systems, because beneath that well-defined surface layer, nothing really has much depth. There is only rudimentary structure ("there's a push and a pull metal of each type in allomancy" is the only thing I can remember), and it doesn't feel at all fundamental. Compare this to something like Lord of the Rings, where Tolkien literally wrote books about the system, or even Harry Potter, where one can at least believe those books exist, or Wheel of Time, where it's believable that Aes Sedai spend centuries studying the deep workings of their magic. Mistborn leaves me feeling like there might be more to memorize ("Oh, we found another alloy!"), but nothing left to understand.
@@cdsmithus I have similar feelings about Mistborn's magic system. Thought I was the only one who was just a bit bored by it. Maybe I just prefer softer magic systems.
@@cdsmithus Mistborn was post apocalytic, in which much of the knowledge of the system is lost to the general public. Era 2 greatly expanded the elements through the post-industrial revolution.
What’s the point of everything being explained about a magic system. Doesn’t that take away the wonder of it?
Maybe it’s just me but the Elantris magic system is amazing. Having where you live and born give you a different type of the same magic system but each system is unique to the culture and history of that place. It’s brilliant.
The Way of Kings will eventually be Tier S when the series is completed.
If it gets completed.
@@dusantoniugrin9710 It will, Sanderson is a writing machine. He isn't a Martin or a Rothfuss.
@@karimm2 he’s also only 45. Meanwhile Martin is 72...
@@jaimelannister1797 and not the healthiest old guy either. I really want a better ending
Lightbringer, Stormlight and HP Magic "Systems" in the same tier? 😬😬😬. I get loving the HP series, but those other "A" tier magic systems are lightyears ahead of HP. Love your vids, it just didnt seem like the criteria you used to base the rankings on was the same for each series. Other than that, keep up the good work
Ikr, harry potter's magic system is a mashup of a bunch of common known mythical magic with some interesting unique ideas but they are so random that you are left to wonder "why can a wizard do this but not that". And the fact that it is a soft magic system allows it far more freedom to be something incredible.
I mean look at Dr strange. Now there is a magic system that's soft as well but you can do much more with it than you can in harry potter. Or look at any fantasy RPG's (mainly D&D) and how fantastical they can be there. Although, I will say that it's not the necessarily that the magic system in Harry Potter that's "bad" but rather the author's limited vision in using it.
Agreed! I find HPs magic system to be basic at best.
yeah it was hard for me to see, but I have an extreme love of hard magic systems so I know where my biases lie 🤷♂️
@@GuyLogen He identified that the criteria were different because the intent of the magic system was different. In the same way that he spoke about LotR not having the battle magic he required for the other S class magic systems because the intent behind it was different. I think in HP the idea is that anything is honestly possible, but it takes time and effort to figure out how to do something and few people are willing to out in the effort into. Dr. Strange defends the world from magical threats, so his magic is rather larger. I think in Harry Potter that kind of magic is possible, but it feels a bit more like a real world where people usually just want to have things be more convenient and aren't going to bother with those random extreme possibilities.
@@CelticCrossGCI guess that's why don't consider the magic system in Harry potter to be bad. The best moment do get an A for thought.
Although, I prefer a magic system that puts it own unique flare to it and a lot of thought put into each step with consequences and limits (almost like a hard/medium magic system). Like why/how certain spells are created and why they have certain names/activation perameters, etc. And I'm not sure how deep JK Rowling went into all of that but judging from the movies (which was my only knowledge source for that universe), there didn't seem to be much explanation to that other than it just is.
The magic is only served as a means to an end to keep the story moving forward and it's full potential is left unexplored. Which is just unsatisfying to the person that wants to witness the fantastical happen within your story, leaving no stone left unturned.
Without even watching I know my boy's gonna place Wot to S tier!
I'm only in book 1 and Moraine just walked over a wall, using some ant man ability THAT IS NEVER ADDRESSED. And I've heard that the magic only improves once Sanderson takes the helm. That's several books written without that improvement and we're really going to be cool with S tier?
Also Harry Potter? It breaks its system with shit like the time turner. How that's a good system is beyond me!
I have not completed #WoT but I agree. The magic system is legendary!
@@ziloe The magic system in Wheel of Time gets fleshed out pretty early in the series. The Eye of the World is the only one where the lines are a bit blurred and even then, with the knowledge from later books it all checks out. I don't know who told you the magic only improves when Sanderson takes the helm but that's a load of bollocks. Sanderson didn't add anything to the magic system because he thought it would be disrespectful to Mr. Jordan. So just keep reading, the magic system will become very clear, very soon :)
@@ornelini98 That's all well and good, but I shouldn't start off the series being completely bewildered by it's details.
That said, the person who told me the magic improves with Sanderson, said that the latter books focused more heavily on the magic system, which was why Sanderson taking the helm was the perfect fit, because he knew what he was doing.
Either way, the latter books to me, felt a little biased. Like, if Daniel was to shit on the vagueness of LOTR's magic system (silmarillion not included), and NOT give it an S, people would riot.
@@ziloe She simply walked though the gate like everyone else did. The giant her was just an illusion.
Sad no Kingkiller, cuz it has such a fantastic magic system
My favourite by far. It has such a perfect combination of soft magic with naming and hard magic with sympathy etc. So nice.
@@munboy how so? Examples? Its honestly on par with Sanderson IMO, except for some parts of mistborns maybe.
There are much better magic systems out there than even Sanderson's, namely Nen and Stands ofc, but I persume this is western only here.
@@Magnify. exactly. Naming is such a beautiful poetic concept. Its not too OP but yet very strong still and soo eerie and mysterious and weird, I LOVE it, the heavy consequences labeling and naming things can have, like everything seems to suggest Kvothe cursed himself to rid of his talents by probably being renamed by Auri to Kote and how Denna keeps changing her alias is very dangerous because it ruins her identity. Then you have sympathy which is basically termodynamics and I love it, then you have siguldry which seems like some kind of material programming with runes, you have grammary which we know almost nothing of, etc.
His magic system is in a way very hard but amazing, i.e. the clever ingenius tricks characters come up with to put it to great use even tho it is very simple. Then you have the beautiful soft naming which is incredibly difficult to learn but can grant you great power. Such a good contrast
There's no Game of Thrones too. ASOIF, where are you?
@@berserker8884 I don't personally thing that Nen is better than allomancy, I would put nen in A with surgebinding, it's amazing and the best I've seen in anime/manga but I like allomancy better basically because it's so much easier to understand how it works and as effective to the story at the same time (it's nice to see somebody relate wester and east magic systems^^). For the rest I agree with you, the Name of the Wind is easily another of my favourite magic systems, a shame he does not like the books.
Do you watch anime? Because the power system of Nen from Hunter x Hunter is simply excellent.
Yeah, I'd also like to mention Fullmetal Alchemist here.
Nen is the gold standard. I will die on this hill.
And slime is pretty good, same with mushoku tensei
@@ninj-as7710 I definitely rate Alchemy over Nen but I am definitely in the minority... but talk about an amazing magic system
@@adoniscreed4031 men is better
As much as I love LOTR, I don't think its magic system is on par with Jordan's or Sanderson's. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't recall there being a lot of explanation on how magic technically worked and why you could do the things you did with it.
There is zero explanation honestly, I think LOTR is an S series overall but the magic is C at best. There is hardly any magic at all! At least not active magic
@@kingtoyou7806 It's not explained in the lord of the rings cause magic is fading by the end of the third age. Tolkien expands on it much more in his other writings set earlier.
If you want explaination on the magic of the ' Lord of the Rings', you should read the 'Silmarillion'. The universe and the world was created thru the music of Ainur (archangels). That alone is magic thru their life spritual force.
I never considered LOTR as a magical story. Not much is really used. Surprised you think of it as a magical fantasy
@@carolbriscoe9337 Some considered when Gandalf is using his staff, thats already a magic.
How could Way of Kings not be S tier?
it should be S+...
The thing I LOVE the most about Sanderson's magic systems is how he incorporates those specifics into the culture, especially into the speech, or swear words (STORM YOU! and Brightlord/Brightlady; or COLORS! or YOU OLD HEAP OF ASH!). I just LOVE LOVE LOVE it. The magic feels more real that way and you can tell how much of an impact it has on the people.
And I can agree with your preference. I think magic in Mistborn was better developed. But again, SLA isn't even halfway through to finishing and we have yet to see A LOT of things to come. My opinion will more likely change.
Rust and ruin!
Yes, it's Rusting awesome when he does that XD
And I agree on SA. We're literally only third of the way into it. I don't mind putting it in A for now, but the fact he wanted to put it in B just irritated me a tiny bit 😂
Storm you is the most cringe ever
I haven't read stormlight yet (hoping to start soon) but that sounds alot like when people say "light" in the wheel of time.
Airsick Lowlander
Would be interesting to hear your view of the Eragon magic system. I actually like it a lot.
I think it's the one thing that stands out from an otherwise average fantasy series.
That's actually what got me into fantasy. I was stuck at home with my roommate and nothing to do and he handed me a book.
Eragon is a straight up blending of the magic systems from Earthsea and the Belgeriad, with tree singing from wheel of time thrown in. The magic in eragon is fine, but if you are just borrowing from other authors, it doesn't add much to a tier list that already contains those authors.
@@cmckee42 you're reaching
@@grasm03 what do you mean by that?
I have a recommendation for a truly unique magic system. The world itself is also really different from any other I've ever read: The Broken Earth Trilogy by NK Jemisin.
It is really different, and a fantastic read.
Enjoyed this serie immensely.
Way too little love or knowledge in the community at large.
Absolutely! I love this book and it's magic system
I'm still into the first book of this series but yes. It is pretty impressive. Since I've not finished it I didn't feel comfortable suggesting it
I can agree with you about Stormlight. With Mistborn, it feels like we got half the puzzle in the first book, to the point where, even if we didn't have all the pieces, the larger picture was immediately clear. With Stormlight, we have a few new pieces each book and they're completely separate, so we still don't know what the overall thing looks like. Even if the individual pieces are cool, without more context, it's hard to examine the quality of the system as a whole.
Malazan was my favorite magic system. Magic felt old and new. Old magics that were more powerful but not known to the humans who are a new race in the world.
Another "magic" in the WoT is the Pattern itself. Things like Ta'veren and their various effects (Mat's luck), Min's viewings probably, etc.
Looking forward to more Malazan from you sir :D
Same here
I almost regretted watching this one... Knowing that Malazan won't be included here.
I was referred to your channel by a friend and i'm loving the discussions/ suggestions! I just started Mistborn, so thanks! Based on the other kinds of magic systems you enjoy you should check out the Shades of Magic series. I don't want to spoil anything so i'll just say that i thought it was some excellent fantasy and I love V.E. Schwabs books. I'd also suggest The Chronicle of the Unhewn Throne for anyone looking for another fantasy series to get into :)
Magic systems that I wish were included:
Kingkiller Chronicles, Inheritance Cycle, Witcher Saga
Witcher Saga is definitely my favorite use of a soft magic system ever. I think inheritance cycle is incredibly good considering how old Paolini was when he wrote it, and he did a very, very good job with the magic system.
I don't think any magic system will ever top Lightbringer in my mind. It's just so unique and just picturing the way people harness the light spectrum is just so beautiful.
You need to look into Raymond Feist magic system and his world building.
soo many systems, Greater path, Lesser path, necromancy, clerical magic, demon conjuring and the various magics of different races. But of course...there is no magic
@@kev4366 Ahhh, Nakor. Great character.
@@kev4366 Dude even tried to bring in string theory at the end, perhaps not well, but he tried.
Have you read Death Gate Cycle By Weis and Hickman? The Rune magic system of the the Sartan and the Patryns, is pretty interresting.
Some of the lacking information around the magic system of Brent Weeks is really nicely developed in Garth Nix's Old Kingdom books.
In LOTR, although the links of the magic to the lore is well developed because the history is so deep, I found that the magic wasn't as really well defined as you think. It seemed like there wasn't much hint of what a character could do with magic until they do it. For example mostly elves don't do much magic but some craft magical items, but then in the Silmarillion Luthien and Beren transform into a bat and wolf and Luthien uses magic through singing. It's creative and unexpected, which is good, but it's not well explained and I don't think Tolkien set up in the history how some non-divine people can do magic while others don't nor what bounds are place on what the different groups can do with magic. This is more of a disagreement with Daniel's appraisal than a criticism of Tolkien. In LOTR the magic is tied into the lore in a very satisfying way, and the lore itself is beautifully fleshed out and rich, but the magic isn't very well developed/codified in my opinion, not like in Earthsea, Old Kingdom, Belgariad, Harry Potter, Dragonlance.
Hi Daniel I just finished The Dragon Reborn I just want to thank you for bringing the series to my attention.
Btw these ranking vids are my favourite on the channel
One thing I would like to add to Brandon Sanderson's magic systems (in these 2 series in particular) is that he has a way of making you feel like you could almost do it yourself. In Mistborn, it is so well described and almost logical to a point where you learn together with the characters. At one point in the story, a character does something quite advanced with 2 metal poles and as a reader, you can fully see and know how advanced it is... it is not just being told how hard it is.
It is the same with Stormlight Archive to a degree. We don't know the full extent yet and it is bigger in some ways, but the lashings makes one feel how the utilization of the powers makes sense and would be possible if it really existed. We all know how Superman's flying works too after having read that ;)
I love magic systems in other series as well and I don't exactly need to know how a thing is done in order for it to be great, but Brandon Sanderson's series just stands out in that regard.
The problem with Harry Potter magic is that the solution is always "Because Dumbledore"
I would throw in Alchemy from FMA as A tier.
Now you've done it, Daniel. Going forward I'm going to have to build a magic system that works, has stakes, makes users (and non-users) suffer, and is internally consistent, _YET_ is based on *_love._*
Why didnt you do the kingkiller cronicles?
I love the way the magic system in the Powder Mage series works with its theme of the progression of time and technology. The powder mages themselves basically make traditional magic users obsolete in many situations and those magic users feel threatened by that. Black powder being addictive to powder mages adds another wrinkle that I find intriguing.
I started reading wheel of time...I'm 15% into The dragon reborn...I can't stop reading(I should be studying for exam) the plot and characters just like forces me to keep reading I have this urge just to find out where the characters and story will end up and the magic system is a big part of the characters and the story I love it
I'm on that book to. Maybe 40% through. Probably the best entry I've read so far. It's so hard to put down because each chapter makes you want to figure what happened, how will it happen.
I've noticed that exams (and, later, the need to do your taxes) enhance all forms of entertainment.
I love lord of the rings but Tolkien magic system if you just read the books. I’m not reading an encyclopedia(similarrion) to understand it. Lord of the rings magic is Gandalf cast a spell that’s all you don’t know how he did it. Then it have the nerve to put anything by Sanderson not at a S. Normally I agree with ratings but this is a big fail for me.
I'm going to have to agree with you whole heartedly. I can deal with and accept Daniel putting Lord of the Rings in S tier every time because hey he really liked the series and I can accept that. But not this time. This is a series on magic systems! It is a clear sign that your magic system is not great when your solution to a lot of problems is the one wizard in the book and he's not even the main character. Why did it work? "Gandalf." Yeah but how "Because magic" he just does things. He is literally a deus ex machina for whenever it looks like things are bad. He is plot armor written in FOR THE PLOT
@@andresreyes2907 Isn't his explanation that he is a literal Deus ex machina though
@@andresreyes2907 his explanation is I need magic to beat this thing I will just use my magic. Powerful demon can kill me as I kill it well I will just resurrect because they need me for the next book. All hope is lost don’t worry I will show up at last second with a light to blind all the orcs so are charge works. Oh you need giant eagles to show I will phone them to show up to save you.
@@andresreyes2907 your last line is why this list sucks he is a fanboy for wot and lotr to the point where he can’t be objective. Where did you learn all this stuff about Gandalf if you have to read another book the similarion to even understand how any of this happened is it a good system?
@@andresreyes2907 it’s horrible that you need to read a history book on the universe to understand it. Imagine if Sanderson had to put out a book going ok here is how everything works. Either make it work in book or your magic system sucks
I'm a lifetime fan of the Harry Potter books, I know them back to front and upside down, and I'd be all for you putting them high on your overall fantasy list (which you didn't do heh)... but I just can't agree with you putting the magic system itself anywhere close to the top tiers (so I think you've got your rankings for HP series backwards :D ).
It's not the fact that it's a soft, whimsical system that does things 'just because magic' - that's fine. It's the clear lack of planning from J.K about her own magic system from book to book that let's it down. It's not that she magically fixes too many things in the narrative, but the contradictions and lack of planning in the magic system leave huge holes in the plot which can't be excused because of it being a soft system in YA genre that 'achieves author intent'.
Far too many examples to mention, but just a few are things like:
- Quirrel casually performing spells without a wand at the end of book 1 - a mechanic never mentioned again, but which could have saved/altered so many situations in the narrative if it is possible.
- The nature of apparition changing completely book to book, e.g side along apparition being a mainstream form of transport in book 6, but never previously mentioned - how many times should that have been used, particularly in books 4 and 5.
- The underage magic system changing/contradicting itself many times in different books, because she didn't plan her story around her system well enough and needed to create restrictions to stop there being obvious magical fixes to events (Generic ministry 'detects' underage magic, then 'magic but not the perpetrator', then 'the trace' leaving huge holes in previous events based on prior definitions).
Soft magic systems are fine, but some restrictions/boundaries of the system still need to be set for the magic and plot to coordinate coherently and believably, even if they are small (i.e. 'I must have something to work on, I cannot burn snow' - Gandalf). But this requires a level of planning that I don't think J.K had. She concentrated on the feel and the world building.
The worst thing is the time turner by far, it is just one massive plot hole, how come a child who just wanted to take more classes has access to this insanely overpowered device which could be used to defeat any wizard with ease. Also the lack of repercussions for using any magic, there's nothing stopping wizards from just spamming the killing curse, apparating and so forth without any consequence, HP is a good series with terrible magic.
The magic system is the worst part of the Harry Potter books. I'm shocked you put hp in a and goodkind in d when neither do magic well at all. And I actually love soft magic systems but HP's magic system is borderline trainwreck. The books work in spite of the magic system not because of it
Isnt it despite, not inspite? Im not sure though. I agree completely with your comment though.
@@ProvidenceNL I should have proofread my comment haha
+100 in HP we have "Abracadabra" and magic does what plot wants
I didn’t love it either, but Kingkiller’s magic system should be here
I find Sympathy to be a very interesting magic & wished more people talked about it. It’s extremely flexible
@@parsifal7300 im pretty sympathetic to it
Yes.
Sympathy is a great hard magic system, with naming being the soft cousin which makes the world feel more wast and mysterious. It’s definitely one of the things I enjoy about the kingkiller chronicles.
TheWashBaasin -14b the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. It’s going to be a trilogy but there are currently two books; ‘the Name of the Wind’ and ‘the Wise Man’s Fear’. I and many others like them a lot, Daniel doesn’t.
You have to read more of the series to understand how Malazan's magic works. It unfolds more and when you start to see the pieces come together, and it makes a lot more sense. At first, I too was like...what?
The Malazan magic system is explained more later on and I think it is pretty cool, like everything else in the series it can be a bit complex,
"The
Warrens of Magic dwelt in the beyond. Find the gate and nudge it open a
crack. What leaks out is yours to shape. Open yourself to the Warren
that comes to you - that finds you. Draw forth its power - as much as
your body and soul are capable of containing - but remember, when the
body fails, the gate closes."
―Tattersail
That is a pretty wack magic system imo. Because what your soul can contain is way too vague and opening yourself to the warren is also way too vague a concept. Like why can the old witch transmute her soul into other bodies. That makes no sense from that description of the magic system.
@@KyleAPemberton The old witch's magic has nothing to do with warrens.
I think the issue with the “because love” argument for Harry Potter is iffy for me because the magic that was made was a sacrificial magic. It was essentially because of love that that occurred and it is perfectly within Dumbledore’s character to explain it vaguely like that. Especially when Harry is young
Mostly agree. Fun list. Disagree about way of kings..it should be S tier. The spren and the shards and the more we learn each book is so well done. Disagree about malazan as well. Keep reading. It's A tier at least. Tolkien's the original, the master, the one who made all this possible, but his magic system suffered some of the same things you punished the others for. Gandalf was a walking macguffin. The magic system has plenty of lore and reasoning but no rules or boundaries at times. Tolkien is A tier.
Agree!!
Malazan is one of the BEST fantasy series of all time. The magic system is also complicated and well-done. Agreed, A-level at least...
I feel like your perception of the books overall really swayed your judgment about the magic systems here.
Strongly agree.
I think once you finish Lightbringer, I think you'll move the magic system up to S tier. There's some super neat bits in the final book
Also! What's with talking about WoT magic and leaving out Leafsinging? That is distinctly it's own magic too, used to grow the Ways, and, as far as we know, unique to the Ogier, suggesting that magic is also separated by race?
Are you familiar with Vancian magic? It's named after Jack Vance, a Fantasy author who used it in his work, but it's also been used by others. Basically, spells have to be prepared in advance, and then they can only be used a few times before they have to be prepared again. The 'Discworld' series uses it pretty well, and the names for the spells are a lot of fun.
It’s also what inspired the dnd magic system
The entire Sword of Truth series is one magical macguffin after another, with *literally every book* introducing a convenient new magical thing/spell/technique/rules quirk that fixes the current situation and sets up the next book's "problem". It was unbelievably frustrating to read through, and I still finished the entire main series, mostly out of spite.
Why is Peter V. Brett's Demon Cycle almost never talked about in any fantasy video? I feel like it's a bit underrated, and I really like its magic system
Yes!!
I just finished The Final Empire & the only problem I had with the magic system (This obviously could change in the next books) was that people either have 1 or all of the abilities. This comes off as a way to simplify it in the authors head - or maybe for us the readers.
Inheritance Series has one of my favorite magic systems
I've only read several of the books mentioned here, but I LOVED the mystery of magic in Malazan Book of the Fallen.
You're given as much information about the magic as you would be given in seeing the silhouette of a person when trying to know what they look like.
Magic, to me, is supposed to be confounding. I just want a taste of how they're doing what they're doing.
I don't want to KNOW EXACTLY how they're doing it. I don't want to know what's supposed to be damn near unknowable to me.
When you read about a character manifesting sorcery in Malazan Book of the Fallen, be they an antagonist or protagonist, it's fucking scary and the stakes are high (which Daniel spoke on in the video).
Thanks Daniel, great video! One thing that's been bothering me for a while: "MacGuffin" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It's not a solution out of nowhere that solves plot problems (that would be a "deus ex machina" as you probably know haha). A "MacGuffin" is something that is presented to be a focal plot point but is actually not important to the plot, e.g. the Holy Grail in Arthurian legends, the Infinity Stones in early MCU films. Magic systems are rarely MacGuffins, although I think in Harry Potter it is kinda true (them learning about magic is supposed to be a major part of the story, but after the first book that entire focus kinda disappears).
Harry Potters magic system should be waaay lower, it's used as a mcguffin all the time and in the last books even as a deus ex machina. It was very underwhelming.
That Stormlight ranking is silly, you're a silly man.
How?
I agree, no way HP is equal to Stormlight
@@davidcarter6659 Did he say HP was equal to Stormlight? No, he didn't, he didn't say that at all.
@@davidcarter6659 And that is under the assumption that books in the same tier cannot differ. Those held under the scale of the tiers can still differ in quality within the boundaries of each tier.
@@davidcarter6659 I don't have a problem, never have, and never will over a situation like this. You are the one taking defense, not me giving offense. I agree, Stormlight is better than Harry Potter but putting their 'MAGIC SYSTEMS' in the same tier is fine. Magic is kinda what HP is all about, Stormlight is fantasy on 11, with magic just a part of its world, a large part, but still just a singular section which ties in with the other individualistic pillars which build Stormlight as a world.
mistborn is definitely S tier. Cant get enough of that series.
I don't believe HP should have been higher or anything. Hell, I think you shouldn't have justified your decision so much.
That said, I have some small defence for 'the power of love':
It does follow a set of rules.
So no one ever in the history of magic has ever loved someone and then woww the killing curse doesn't work anymore? It just doesn't make sense, thousands of people must have died trying to protect their families from the killing curse, but it just worked ONE time with Harry. It doesn't follow a set of rules.
Not directly book related but any fan of complex hard magic systems should check out HxH. Nen and allomancy are tied for my favorite magic system of all time spot.
Hard second on the Harry Potter. I wouldn't be into fantasy if it weren't for those movies as a kid and I never would have gotten into everything much better today.
Avatar The Last Air Bender is a solid S. The whole world is beautifully created around the bending styles
Not to mention that it’s both a soft magic system dealing with spirit energy and ki and reincarnation, and a hard magic system dealing with martial artistry and physical prowess and actual access to the material being bended
There should be an extra video about magic systems from cartoons/anime/manga.
Is the magic system in LOTR really S tier worthy? Maybe I read the trilogy when I was too young to pick up on it but it felt really soft and not very explained to me.
I actually think Harry Potter’s magic system is better in the early books, where all the BS is excusable because it’s trying to build that whimsy you talked about. Plus, the kids are learning new spells which we learn along with them, making the system somewhat hard as we know what the characters they can do (except for when some BS comes along like the time-turner). From book four onwards, it’s got all the problems of being a very soft system while also trying to have stakes are just very obvious, but without all the whimsy that made it excusable in the early books.
Also, on LotR, what??? How in the fuck is it S tier? It’s got some good mythology, the best, really, but c’mon, in the actual books themselves the magic system isn’t even really a magic system. It’s a series of miracles or just random shit that comes out of nowhere. It doesn’t rise the stakes and it isn’t useful for combat.
But that's not what the magic in LotR is for. You're told just enough that on those few occasions it's used to resolve conflicts it's appropriately satisfactory (or if you go the extra mile and read the Silmarillion you get to understand how it does in fact fit firmly into a very specific system), and the rest of the time it's just there for the vibes and lore (and also the One Ring is there to be a Sword of Damocles that drives the stakes).
While growing up reading HP I was so damn excited to learn about the magic system. When HBP came along I finally thought we were gonna learn how the world worked but instead I got deus ex’d. It’s interesting but I was very sad it’s a soft magic system.
Hmmmm
Rank fantasy protagonists next.
Perrin "It's just a weave" Goldeyes.
Great video, but please learn what a McGuffin and a Deus Ex Machina are.
Hey Daniel I love your channel! I agree with all your wheel of Time opinions 100% of course! I really think you should reconsider your wizards first rule ranking, seeing as you haven’t read the entire sword of truth series. The larger world and lore is really quite good, and I highly recommend you finish the series and then pass judgment on it. Keep being awesome!
TH-cam recommended this video under Software - Topic, lol.
That's because TH-cam uses the magic system of algorithms :-)
I want to see more of Sanderson's Rithmatist magic system. I hope he writes more in this setting.
It's funny that here you are ranking MISTBORN as S-tier, when back in your original review from 2017, one of your big criticisms of the book was, in your own words, that "its magic system was pretty shallow."
Book ones magic was shallow. Lightbringer and wot seem shallow early on too. He's not ranking individual books.
I agree, we got to explore about half of Allomancy in TFE. Book 2 brought us Ferruchemy. 3 brought us Hemalurgy. I'm glad we didn't get bombarded with all 3 in 1 book. Overload. Brandon stories unfold in layers, which is perfect for "there's always another secret. "
Also re: Mistborn - the fact that they use metals also Effect the economy and usage of land etc etc. The Magic require resources. It also gives a social hierarchy. So, in this case, the Magic isn't just a Tool to give the protagonist some awesome power, but it also explains how the world works in a broader sense. The politics, the economics, the beliefs... I have just started reading Mistborn but I am already hooked.
I'd switch the places of LOTR and Lightbringer. LOTR has a wishywashy magic system. The only reason it's good is because of the world building.
Lightbringer is as good as Mistborn with its magic. It's as hard as Mistborn and it cheats only where gods are involved. The same goes for Mistborn (emperor) actually.
While WoT's magic system is fine, it's flawed.
I know you are not a big fan of the inheritance series but i enjoyed that magic system. The fact that its tied to your knowledge of elvish gives another parameter to master to master if you dont want to fail at your spells because of grammar. The energy cost tied to the task you are trying to perform reminds me of the conservation of energy law in thermodynamics. Just like the law of equivalent exchange in full metal alchemist
Where's my soft magic system gang at?
Not here, man. I'm with you, though.
In earthsea's defense of it's magic the books go to great lengths to explain that magic is a balance of power and a balance of nature. So a lot of the restraint in the use of its magic is explained through that lens. Ged explains it so throughly and so often that anytime magic isn't being used you just assume there is a balance of nature preventing him. He may be starving but it would be a breach of trust to call his dinner using magic. He may be dehydrated but he must not risk flooding the local lands.
“The saving of the heroes feels completely unearned,”
TIME TURNERS 😡😡😡
random pheonix swooping in
next video: Daniel Greene's ranking videos ranked
XD
LotR magic system is not good, not even very well explained, but, as you say, it's written alot about it.
It's not very well understood. We don't understand what characters can do, when they do something, it comes out of nowhere, it's not set up, and then they never do it again in other times when it would be super useful.
It's written alot about the magic in the universe, but it has so much magic that we don't completely understand any of it.
The way I would have done this tier list, Mistborn is definitely S-tier, but LotR is definitely not !!
Out of all of these I most disagree with the Lord of the Rings, my biggest problem is that the magic is nearly completely unexplained in the main books and one has to read his notes and secondary stories to really fully understand the magic.
What do you have against the 'Because Love' trope? That is pretty much the Judeo-Christian ethos and I think that trope developed out of that. You can see it thread it's way through so many series from LOTR to WOT. I mean Crazy Rand's mountaintop conversion to Zen Rand is pretty much 'Because Love'. Isn't it one of the undying principles that 'Love conquers all'?
I love that scene in WOT.
Narnia and LOTR are more Christian