Interesting (though not surprising) to see how well this definition fits the magic in Dresden Files. In that world, magic is a learned ability for humans, and can be greatly enhanced with even simple tools, like drawing a circle with chalk to serve as a foundation for a spell. The most interesting thing about it is that how established the whole thing feels. For example when Dresden summons a demon into a circle for questioning, the demon roars and attempts to break out of its confinement for a little while, and then Dresden just asks "Are you satisfied, demon?" and the demon answers "Quite." in perfect Oxford accent. Turns out the etiquette demands the summoned demon to attempt to break out of its confinement and do his best to kill its summoner, but since it decided it failed, it was ready to answer the questions Dresden might have. It's crazy.
kumisz but you also have to be born with magic, which if I’m not mistaken, comes from ones maternal side. Anyone can dream a circle, but they don’t have that little ounce of “will” to give it power.
That's what i love of the DF's magic system. It's varied and widespread like HP magic, but feels more grounded in reality, and has clear cut limitations, at least on the user's side.
@@TheStonewall117 yes and no. While Dresden scoffs at pretenders' personal level of power, he does recognize that ritualistic magic can do some meaty shit given the right circumstances, and for some things don't require an ounce of magic (see the Necronomicon as mentioned in the Tomas Raith sidestory, the Never War) He's gone against muggles in Storm Front and Side Jobs, and both times ritual magic was plenty enough to put dresden, a wizard in the top 30 heavyweight combat wizards in the world (at a 10th the age of the other 29), in danger.
I think it's important to realize that technology should also follow these rules. As they say, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. If your sci-fi universe has FTL, then either you need to explain how it works or you can't make it a focus of your story's plot. If all you want to say is that the special engine allows for FTL, then the only major problem you can have is that the bad guys turns off the engine.
That's one of the things I like about Lord of the Rings. Magic such as the One Ring are more comparable to technology than might be in other settings, being simply "technology" crafted by a being which played a role in, and understands on an intuitive level, the workings of the physical universe.
(sorry for the bad english) yes I think the same. if you want one good book of sci-fi FTL war, read "The Forever War". critique of the war in vietnam and it have einstein law of relativity.
There's a small issue with the main rule of technology: our knowledge. If we take humans from 8000 BC, and show them a lighter or a penicillin, they will call it magick and impossible technology. If future humans will show us individual per human pocket dimension for stuff, or nanorobot immune system, we call it magick and say that it's impossible. The main problem of technology is that we just can't understand how far we can get. We trying to apply old laws of storytelling to future. It's like human from 8000 BC will tell us about how lighter works with his language and his understanding. "ting make fire. God of fire live inside ting."
I was so glad to hear Brandon Sanderson mentioned in the first 60 seconds. He is without question one of the greatest magic system designers in all of history, and should be included in every discussion like this.
Allow me to render him contested. I would prefer the Inheritance Cycle or even Harry Potter in comparison to Brandon Sanderson's work, having read a few of his books myself. He's overrated, and people are too willing to get on their knees and worship him.
Given it is the attempt to explain the world without using supernatural or magical explanations, I would suggest physics is the only system that doesn't use magic.
To a certain rocket scientist, physics brought to a high enough level is no different from magic. At least to the average user. Like if we ever create hover boards, to a 3 year old, does it matter if it's done using physics or magic?
@@seanc9520 how is a three year old "average"? Of course someone that young might not be interested in how the device works. But then again they might. Why presume, and why make them so young in the first place? As to whether it matters, that depends on who you are talking to, but for the majority I would suggest it matters a great deal! If it is physics, it will matter to those for whom the hoverboard has potential economic or travel implications- can the technology be replicated, rescaled, applied in different ways, can it be weaponised etc etc. If it is magic it will likely matter even more! Where did this power come from, can anyone obtain it, what is its extent and potential, what does this mean for our view of life, the universe etc. In fact, for most people the revelation that magic exists would be the biggest, most mind blowing change to their world view they had ever experienced. I'm not trying to be an arse here, you have a point in that for most people it is the end result not the method that matters, at least most of the time. But if it is a physics vs magic question- I think most people would like to know the answer if the possibility of the answer being "magic" is in anyway worth considering.
One thing to always mention on hard magic systems is the inverse of Clarke's Law; "Any magic sufficiently studied becomes indistinguishable from science."
Reginald Uy I never liked that saying. Magic is a skill. Science is a method for understanding reality. Magic, if it existed, could be explained by science but it is not science itself.
I have a similar desire. I find it quite the challenge, especially when your trying for a more soft feeling. In an RPG things usually MUST have an explanation so that the players can reliably interact with it. The only way I see getting around it is introducing one or more harder systems for player use and them adding a few softer magical elements that MAY have some defined function but may also contain a random or unreliable element that the players have no control over.
Perchance the LARP and / or GURPS system already has a framework? Too, I don't think SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) has one, since they are a historical reenactment group.
Mmm I like me some magic. Lemme explain my favourite one. Made in Abyss' "Curse of the Abyss" is probably my favourite magic system. The "Curse of the Abyss" is a strange and invisible force that exists only within the "Abyss", a huge hole in the ground, and it acts like a trapdoor, allowing humans to enter the Abyss, but not ascend out of it. Well, at least not without some sort of suffering. The curse reacts to human souls, inflicting physical and mental trauma as they go up. As you go deeper into the Abyss, the curse's effects get increasingly severe, ascend from the first layer of the abyss and you will only get mild nausea, but ascend from the fifth layer and you will loose your human form and become a blob of flesh with a human soul trapped inside. Lovely. Any deeper and you will face a certain and painful death. Even more lovely. The people living around the Abyss regard the curse like a science, and while scientists understand the basics of the curse, the origin of it is unknown. While no animals seem to be affected by the curse, some of the creatures in the Abyss have evolved to detect fluctuations in the curse, which are caused by both physical movement and human (and probably also animal) thought. The Orbed Piecer, for example, can actually detect the fine disturbances caused by thought and thus can basically read the mind of it's prey and predict its actions. Human scientists have also found ways of manipulating the curse, for example a certain scientist had the morally acceptable idea of using a human nervous system as a shield against the curse, allowing the user to ascend peacefully while the human nervous system absorbs the affects of the curse. Who knows what happens to the soul of the human sacrifice. I'm sure it's very very pleasant. And that's why I love the Curse of the Abyss so much. It shapes the environment of the Abyss, creating all the amazing creatures and mad scientists, and combined with the show's mostly excellent writing and beautiful art, it creates some one of the most believable and intriguing worlds in fiction. Oops I wrote an essay. But there you go.
I was really hoping you'd start with Clarke's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", which would have been a perfect fit for hard magic, but I like the episode either way. I really appreciate you mentioned Ursula Le Guin - she's quickly falling into obscurity and that saddens me greatly.
I have a sci-fi universe where a lot of technologies are based on "energy", it's not just the energy we know like heat, kinetic and stuff like that, it's a raw form of energy, that is then manipulated and shifted to create thrusters, energy weapons, energy fields with different property that can range from a traditional energy shield, to hovercrafts to creating physical blades and tools that can change shape. that energy also as an associated "crystal" material, whish can store battery, is the base to anything that manipulates energy, and can also radiate energy away in specific forms like radiation or in raw form, it's also used as a construction material like carbon fiber but with carbon nanotubes instead, with crystal serving as the catalyst (aka the resin that is poured onto carbon fiber to create sheets) in a way, it's a single element apparated to a magic system that is then used as a base to create all kinds of technologies equivalent to stuff we can already do as well as stuff that we can't do. it allows me to avoid stupid errors due to not being an expert in every material and technology known to man, while also offering more liberties that couldn't be possible in a sci-fi universe based entirely on existing materials.
Latin america dub called it "control" agua control, fuego control, aire control someone in the dub department must love shadow the hedgehog You know, 'cause "chaos control" ...? I'll see my self out...
Personally I think the Dresden Files has one of the best magic systems, period. It's physically exhausting to the extreme when used excessively, and there are rules that are grounded in reality. Want to make a flame? You have to channel heat from somewhere, be it yourself or the area around you. Dresden made an ice bridge because he fired a massive pillar of flame into the sky. All the heat in the area in front of him (and a great deal of his own) was drained away. He nearly passed out (even simply chenneling magic/enegy takes a LOT of mental fortitude) and was nearly killed soon after. It's an amazing series by Jim Butcher and I hope you all take a second to read it.
For me, magic has to be an active part of the story; either as something the characters are striving for and gradually gaining over course of their adventures or it should be something that is familiar to the characters and used as a tool in conjunction with other tools throughout the story.
I like "mysterious" magic systems. But as you mentioned, that doesn't have to be a soft magic system. The wargs in GoT have clearly defined rules and still had this mysterious vibe to them (maybe that's just because they barely ever used them for anything lol). I really want to make something like that as well.
One of the greatest "hard magic" systems I ever came across, was the magic in Eragon, where the spells a person could use were limited only by their imagination and the words they knew in the ancient language. If they knew the ancient word for fire, they could conjure and manipulate fire. However, there was another limitation in that whatever the spell did, it would use the same amount of energy as it would do to do the same thing, by non-magical means. For example, if you threw a fist sized rock by magic, you'd barely notice the energy drain. If you attempted to pick up a massive boulder and throw it, even if you succeeded, it would leave you exhausted. If you attempted a spell beyond your means, you could expend all your energy and die.
TBH I prefer the flexibility of the Belgariad's Will and the Word (which Grammary was almost certainly based based on). Grammary is still a very good example of a hard magic system.
I totally agree, the whole time she was talking about hard magic systems I could only think of the Inheritance Cycle(the official name of the Eragon series) everything in it is incredibly well defined, balanced and logical.
There was more "wild" sorts magic you could use in the setting of Eragon. Stuff that doesn't use the ancient language. But yeah, its a pretty good system, whose very nature evokes a question of "who in the past managed to tie their language to the very workings of magic?"
@@SephirothRyu Brom explained it as it not just being A word for the thing, it was THE word for the thing. Even people had true names. The ancient language was just the discovery of those true names for various things. The fact people (entirely new creations) had true names, it seems to me like it's some primordial rule of the universe that everything has a true name, assigned at it's creation by the universe itself.
@@archlorddestin It kind of makes you wonder how the first speakers figured it out. How did they come to discover this language that seems to just be a verbal extension of the universe? Where Galbatorix found the Word was left really ambiguous, but he did have to spend decades looking for it, and he did find it written down by SOMEONE. Then there's the whole thing about wordless magic. Is the ancient language just a way to help people focus their thoughts, which are the real magic-making element? I have the first, third and fourth books practically memorized at this point, but I need to read Eldest. That's where a lot of the juiciest mechanics were explained.
Holy crap! The sudden and unexpected disappearance of magic is a fantastic concept for the setting of a story, especially one in a world where magic users are the ruling class.
I seem to remember an old jrpg where this was the premise, unfortunately I cannot remember what it's called, I think it was on one of the original two PlayStations tho
I like the magic system of Gothic. In Myrthana, magic is said to be "the fifth element" and it's energy is completely measurable, the best example being magical Ore - a resource that holds a charge of magical energy, making creations such as Ore mound to blow up something possible. The mages of Gothic are basically a combination of priests and engineers.
There is one magic system that I found really unique, and it's found on the Bartimaeus Sequance by Johnathan Stroud. Magicians have to summon demons in order to use that demon's power as humans have no magical power of their except in conjurations. I highly recommend the series.
I always loved the way that Shadowrun handled magic. You have a maximum number of spells based on your magic score. When you cast spells, you can make them as weak or powerful as you want, and the same spell has different variants based on area of effect and range (fire hands, flamethrower, fire ball). But there are three drawbacks. First drawback is that you must resist drain with each spell cast, so if you overclock a spell you run the risk of knocking yourself out or even killing yourself. You also leave a huge presence in the astral plane, making it easier to track. Finally, magic is affected by the world around you, and certain areas are changed by the type of magic cast or past events. These areas can enhance certain types of magic (such as toxic zones enhancing toxic magic, such as Chernobyl), make spellcasting ridiculously easy (such as Stonehenge), or attract shadow spirits or even shedim and/or has memories burned into it that affect any and all awakened mortals that enter it (Auschwitz being the glaring example).
Will you guys be ever be able to cover the SCP universe? Like a GOI that has more definite roots or history? Or cover the 001 Swann proposal for the SCP foundation that would explain the indefinite history of the foundation?
I just begun creating my own homebrew RPG system and im just starting work on how the magic of the my world works. This video couldn't have come out at a more perfect time!
I'm usually big on Syfy but this episode is convinced me to at least try and dabbling in a little bit of a magical system alongside, thanks for the awesome video!
I would have loved to see mention of the Empyrion (Warp) and Psykers from 40k. How they can control the warp but all the wile their powers telegraph their presence to Daemons who are constantly trying to consume or possess them, this limiting how much they can submerse/lose themselves in their powers lest they explode.
As a Warhammer person, I've found this an interesting video; had the view of Warhammer's magic/psychic stuff to be very much a middle thing; thanks to it being a chaotic thing in nature. But this has been interesting.
The best magic system I have ever seen in any story is nen from Hunter X Hunter but it starts at around episode 25. Still the most creative system have ever encountered, what power would you create?
I loved to see this, a very well done presentation of Sandersons Laws of Magic was a joy to see. I recently saw some of his lectures and this covers the magic one nicely. The only thing I was missing was a mention of Sandersons 0th Law of Magic: "Always err on the side of Awesome."
I wanted to say thank your for making this, I am in the process of writing a short story that I have had kicking around my brain for a while that involves magic. My problem was my magic system was untenable and this has given me some great ideas on how to make a usable magic system and given me an idea for evolution of the heroes powers..
The magic system I'm employing falls under several different categories; charmed object, elemental, and religious, definitely, and possibly shamanistic and/or psychic. There's also other sources of magic.
Shouldve taken a look at Code Geass and its "magic" system and how well and clever it actually implements it within its context. Its a good example of Hard Magic but isnt on the extreme end of the spectrum.
Babylon 5 had multiple magic systems throughout its episodes. The mainstay were the Telepaths, exceptionally rare Telepaths were also Telekinetics, Technomages who use technology advanced to the point it is indistinguishable from magic to the uninitiated, and alien psychics who can see and predict the future.
Good work. I'm not really a fan of Sanderson's rules, because they are misused more often than not, but they say something fundamental. The second part of the video was great on the other hand, made me think about magic. What important example you forgot? Vancian magic, of course. Strict formulas of a freely flowing magic, much like programming, in theory you could use machine code to do whatever you want, but nobody is smart enough for that, so we use programs, prewritten snippets of code.
Surprised that DnD wasn't included or mentioned in this well made video. Though I would characterize them into the harder end of the magic. Also they are far into the learned scale, as any creature in Dungeons and Dragons with at least average intelligence can learn to cast at least basic magic.
@@TheRezro Why though? Magic is extremely well-defined. So much so, in fact, that when Mystra nuked high-level magic after the first-ever 12th level spell it made 100% perfect sense. If you're suggesting that it's soft magic because some people such as Sorcerers don't have to study their magic to understand it, then you misunderstood the definition of soft magic like most people. It's not whether or not characters in the universe understand it, it's about whether or not we the audience understand it. That's why Harry Potter's parents defending him during his duel against Voldemort in The Goblet of Fire wasn't a copout. He didn't understand it, but we the audience have been made to understand that love is a more powerful magic than anything a wand or potion could produce. Is it cringey to say that he was saved by the "power of love"? Yes, but its power was explained to us previously and has a place in that magical system, even if Harry didn't understand what he was wielding.
Great video as always. I hope you do a follow-up video explaining the impact of magic on the world it comes from. Like for example the economy, religion, daily life, floura and fana ex you know the world and society as a whole if magic was apart of it. I also want to know if you will also do a video explaing the opposit of magic which is Technology more specifically pseudoscience and fantastical technology in Science Fiction. Since a lot of the arguments you made about magic can be applied oppositly and relevant to pseudoscience and fantastical technology in Science Fiction. As a famous science fiction writer once said `Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic´.
Alright, let me say that when I saw this video, I was hoping for specifically Fullmetal Alchemist and Avatar to be in here, so I'm really happy about that. And the specific part about alchemy, that was one of the best puns you guys have ever used, very well done. I remember a similar video being made by HelloFutureMe that was also good, but his was from a more literature-based point of view, while this one was very factual and analytical. Excellently done! One of my favorite videos to date.
Generally we can distinguish three main types of magic, usually defining whole systems, though not being mutually exclusive. Hard Magic what is specific set of rules (example: Alchemy from Full Metal Alchemist), Soft Magic what can do everything, but usually fallow eldritch logic with tendency of not being realizable to offset it being OP. And technology as magic, according to third law of Clarke. But speaking in more detail about common systems we usually distinguish: Ritual Magic (so set of magic worlds, gestures and practices causing effect utilized by Wizards and Mages), Inherited Magic aka Sorcery, what usually rely on emotions and tend to drain energy of caster, but usually don't rely on complex knowledge but emotions. And finally contracts with higher entity. Either more direct like summoning utilized by warlocks or faith, what is more collective contract signed by whole groups with entity perceived as deity. Those usually are less realizable as priests tend to not have leverage over they contractor.
I do think a couple points of discussion should be opened on this. While in general, I agree with Sanderson's Laws, I think calling the 1st a "Law" as such is a stretch. Harry Potter itself broke its laws all over the place. The magic rules seemed to reset every book at times. No one really complained about this until Rowling started dumping on her material herself in the past few years. Also both The Black Company & The Malazan Book of the Fallen have detailed magic systems that it is many books before the readers understand. In the latter, we're introduced to Holds long before Warrens are fully explained. And how otatarel nullifies magic is a mystery until literally the last third of the last book of the main sequence. I think it's important the author know the rules, present them consistently, and expand our knowledge of the system. I do not think it's necessary to exposit the rules of magic before using it. Or for the characters to be right about it all the time. For examples of the last, see both David Drake's Lord of the Isles series, and Jim Butcher's Dresden Files & Codex Alera.
First, I want to say I appreciate the hard work behind the video and the way it clearly lays out most of what we know about magic systems so far. One thing I have doubts is the placement of some of the magic systems on the spectrums in the video. For example, Star Wars is marked as heavily soft, but I'd say by the time you start devouring books, you have a pretty good understanding of the limitations and possibilities of what Jedi can do. There's a limited amount of canon powers they can wield and we can expect a rookie jedi not to be able to perform certain feats that a master jedi could easily do. Therefore, I think the right place for SW on hard/soft spectrum is somewhere closer towards the middle, still leaning to the soft side though.
Star Wars table top RPG, starting with WEG west end games d6 system, the WotC wizard of the coast D&D/Star Wars d20 - 3rdE, then 3.5e, follow with 4e Saga Edition, and what even they got out currently now. Then 1990's novels and Darkhorse comics really inspire RPG players to bend and break the rules of WotC 3e system for dramatic effect in game play.
For magic systems, oh boy am I getting a headache on mine. The best way I can describe it is... [deep breath] Imagine the code system from The Matrix, where select few able to read it somehow interpret it into a visual manifestation of what is going on in real time, only in this case it's writing that code to manifest and manipulate physical matter. "Programing" the code it into a cog wheel made of a luminescent material with the physical properties of iron but the visual properties of corundum with essentially a blueprint of a machine or elemental effect while it simultaneously absorbs raw materials required to create it. Then when the cog wheel is electrically stimulated it will then manifest and assemble the desired machinery or effect around it, when deactivated the manifestation will then disassemble and store it again where materials and programming can repair and improve upon it. This allows a skilled craftsman to design impossible machines that will be magically constructed, resulting in complex weapons and armor, Cannons that manifest and fire bolts of energy, stationary engines that can produce sufficient thrust to defy gravity, and other creations all powered by magic. Then there are the people in my world where (thanks to generations of exposure due to geographic isolation) have the material in their bloodstream instead of iron and are actually able to manipulate it to perform elemental magic without the aid of a mechanical apparatus but require they literally have every runic symbol in the code tattooed on their skin using ink infused with the material to act as an interface that requires a lifetime of training to master. like I said, a headache
I love you guys. You're getting my thumbs up purely on the inclusion of sanderson's laws of magic. It's a fantastic video by the way but the fact that you are Sanderson readers or at least view his laws as sound just ups my appreciation for this channel and it's creators. You two are the best.
I really enjoy how Brent Weeks does his magic through both The Night Angel trilogy and his recent works of The Light Bringer series, both are interesting and The Light Bringer series is much to be desired in a magic world.
Sorcery, or "The Will and the Word" from David Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorian series. Great example of a system that falls somewhere in the middle of the Hard-Soft scale. They can do almost anything they can imagine, but there are also very strict limitations, with dire consequences if you break them.
Thank you for doing a video that explains the difference in magic systems that Sanderson laid out, this video was extremely informative and well put together. I liked it very much indeed. If you guys are open to recommendations on future videos, and bear in mind that I might have put forward this one already, but how about a video exploring the *Blackwood Detective Agency* from the *Call of Cthulhu Collectible Card Game,* that could be interesting.
My favourite hard magic system comes from Eragon. There are two to three (depending on how you count) rules, that make everything perfectly clear: 1 The magician has to focus on what he wants to achieve, while channelling his energies 2 An Expression in elven language is not mandatory, but due to its connection with the magic itself, it can help to clearly define a spell and avoid terrible accidents 3 A spell will draw the amount of energy required from its caster, which can even cause a wizard to faint or die from his own spell
i have an idea for a fictional world but i didn't know how to make the magic in it work in the story until i saw your video, it was really helpfull, great job
So impressed to hear Brandon Sanderson's magic system. Some of the best books I've read are his works. I'm (impatiently) waiting for his Stormlight Archive novels.
Reading the title I wondered if you'd mention Sanderson and I'm so happy you did. He's the pro at magic systems. Also talking about Sanderson, would you ever do a video on some of his books? I think that'd be great!
As soon as i read the name of the video i knew you guys needed to talk about Brandon Sanderson. That man has invented over a dozen (so far) different magic system in the Cosmere universe and every single one of them work perfectly!
I'm very thankful for this video. I'm maintaining an effort to write for the sake of exploring my own imagination, and although it's easy to find inspiration in published fiction and instructional or analytical content, it's still really difficult to dissect what I'm learning and reorganize it into something of my own. This video ranks high among analytical videos I've watched, even though I've already heard most of the ideas in it. I'd love an in-depth analysis of a fantasy world with a lot of fleshed-out variety in it, like Cyrodiil. Perhaps you could consider questions such as these: If everyone in Cyrodiil has innate magical ability, why is the study of magic not their highest priority? Why do farmers and miners use simple iron tools when the magical "technology" exists to move objects telepathically or create explosions? What is the process by which necromancers can compel a corpse to walk again, or healers mend wounds? Why do alchemical ingredients have such novel properties while food is still merely nourishment, with small exception? Where does the energy to cast spells come from? Why is it depleted by spell casting, and restored merely by living? Season 2 of Netflix's Castlevania came out a couple weeks ago, and I enjoyed it even more than Season 1. Perhaps you could include this in a future Incoming episode, or another episode type. (Spoiler Alert) I particularly enjoyed learning about the Devil Forgemasters Hector and Isaac, Sypha's attack on Dracula's castle, and Dracula's death. When Dracula is killed it seems as though the souls of the people he had killed came flooding out of him. Where did he keep them all? How are they used to make him more powerful? My all-time favorite fantastical universe is Garth Nix's Old Kingdom, which has a strong emphasis on necromancy and enchantment. I could talk about it all day long but I hardly know anyone else who knows of it. A Templin Institute video on THAT series would be like a dozen Christmas presents in one.
I think psykery is instinctual, the training mostly comes from harnessing it, channeling it and protecting yourself from Chaos. Unless of course you play for Chaos, then go nuts.
Psykers are sort of a middle ground. They are innate in that they have the abilities from birth. However they need to be trained to fulfil their potential and avoid the risks of becoming a portal for warp entities. However Chaos sorcerers, although normally psykers, don't have to be. They simply need to follow the correct rituals (although a sorcerers who is also a psyker may be able to cut some corners).
Another interesting thing that can be done is implied hard magic - where the reader has little understanding of the rules but there is an understanding that there are rules and that they are understood by at least some of the characters. It's generally treated by the author as soft magic but by the characters as hard and can create the impression of a complex magic system that truly requires extensive study to understand. An example is potion-making from Harry Potter - we are told to just accept that a certain combination of ingredients and technique makes a specific potion and that new ones can be introduced all the time but there's an understanding that behind the scenes there is a logic to what ingredients and actions do what, and that someone with enough mastery could apply these rules in new ways. It allows Rowling the freedom to invent new potions without much restriction but still gives the impression of a highly complex and intellectual endeavour that can be learned with considerable effort, allowing us to be impressed by the Half-Blood Prince for instance in a way that wouldn't work if we could work it out ourselves. It's sort of how the layperson sees programming, for instance, which in a way grounds it - we can relate to the position of not understanding something others do, making its use in magic feel believable.
I'm working on a fantasy work with a magic system reliant on the gods. This video helped solidify who uses that magic and why. Simply put, only the servant of a god can use that power and only what they allow for a specific task.
The interesting thing about magic in warhammer and warhammer 40k, is that it is simply the warp, which can manifest in various ways, either through occult rituals, favour of the gods or innate abilities like psykers. The interesting thing in warhammer and 40k is that the power is virtually limitless but it has a will of its own, alligning yourself with the gods might therefore still not grant you unlimited power as either they or the warp itself may turn on you at any moment. Ironically one of the best ways to shield oneself from the effects of their own magic in warhammer and 40k is to NOT understand that it is the power of the warp, but wholeheartedely believe it is something else, which will shape the warp to behave as if it was that something else. The Warp is weird that way. My point, it falls basically everywhere on the spectrum rather than only on the middle religious end.
Saying is reference to device (machina) used to put plot resolving character (deus) on the stage in Greek theater. Not every DEM need to be magic, but magic is one of most abused DEM's ever.
I personally like the sort of systems where magic is taxing on the body, but there is no hard limit (what i mean is that your 'mana' is like stamina, where once your'e out you could still push on with enough effort, while being at the risk of mental or even physical damage) and items like staffs and wands aren't strictly required but make it easier to channel the energy. my optimal magic system would be this: - your 'mana' is simply how much energy you can expend using magic before you risk backlash from your body - magical items (i mean things like wands) simply make it easier to cast - the amount of energy it takes to cast a spell is directly correlated to how much effort you put in (the first time you do something is usually the hardest, is it not? and the more you do it the easier it is and the lower amount of effort you need) - the strength of a spell is directly correlated to the effort used (so a spell that delivers a blunt attack from nothing could either be a playful slap or could be an absolute sucker punch) - 'active' actions such as moving an object or taking control of something requires more than a 'passive' action which could be sight enhancements or mind reading (because doesn't it take more energy to lift a heavy bag than it does to read a book series?)
My one big critique is the lack of distinction between what the characters know and what the audience knows. For example, magic might be very hard, explicit and predictable, from the character's perspective and yet be very soft from the audience's perspective. It is the audience perspective of the magic that Sanderson's laws apply to, not the in-world functioning of the magic. You can have the magic be very hard in-world and yet leave it mysterious to the audience so you can use it to add wonder and awe, or the other way and make it rather soft in-world but explain it well enough to use for solving problems.
I very much like how Sanderson approaches the whole build-up of magic, and how he created his laws, based on Clarke's Three Laws about technology. And here you explained it very well!
This was fantastic advice for any would-be creative. Knowing where your boundaries are on the axes helps to determine the extent that you wish to analyze your magic system. The ONLY concession I'd make against this video was how you associated Shamanism with Doctor Strange. C'mon, Templin! Shaman King is right there, down to the words! 🧙🏻♀It's even HARDER than Doctor Strange, since the Oversoul Weapons relate directly to the spirit being channeled!
Genuine video, very well done. Loved the identifying of *magic*. Also happy you used Warhammer scenes haha, wonder where 40k would fall in your charts. Anywho excited for the next one.
There's something special about finding out that you've been doing something right the whole time. Considering things from magical ecology to magical economy, the way things manifest and the different systems used in a world. Wards are different from charms are different from enchantments, but they can coexist. Gem-based magic users manifest differently from manaborn, who manifest differently from messiahs, and they can coexist. Gods and dædras can have no relation to eachother but can still coexist. Alchemy and potionmaking and gastronomy; witches and mages and wizards and crones can all coexist in the same world without much stretch. Nothing is mutually exclusive to anything else, even an opposite cannot exist without a counterpart. Even the difference between manic fields and reality manipulation is not large enough to rule one out with the other.
I thought the same thing. Although I have to say Robert Jordan's wheel of time series is my favorite I really love Sandersons cosmere universe. I've only just gotten into it though
I really want a book focused on a bad guy. In fantasy we always hear about these terrible bad guys waging wars in the past, distant or recent, and for once I'd like a book focused on someone like that. I dont care if they win or lose but it'd be interesting to see a story from that side. Anyone know something like that?
Elex from the world of Elex is a good example of magic. When consumed by man, those who cant handle it are transformed into mindless mutants while those who can are gifted hightened physical abilities yet loose their emotion with prolonged use. The Berserkers of Edan have figured out how to create a type of anti-elex, which can counteract the emotion draining effects, give magical abilities (like shooting fire from you hands), and can even drain elex from the ground. Yet unlike elex, mana is not wide spread and doesn't travel far, while elex has seemingly seeped into everything. Elex is also used to power technology, and has been instrumental at assisting technological advancement and rediscovery since the commit hit. (The mentioned _commit_ brought elex btw.)
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I adore "incoming" episodes
Ditto
Interesting (though not surprising) to see how well this definition fits the magic in Dresden Files. In that world, magic is a learned ability for humans, and can be greatly enhanced with even simple tools, like drawing a circle with chalk to serve as a foundation for a spell.
The most interesting thing about it is that how established the whole thing feels. For example when Dresden summons a demon into a circle for questioning, the demon roars and attempts to break out of its confinement for a little while, and then Dresden just asks "Are you satisfied, demon?" and the demon answers "Quite." in perfect Oxford accent. Turns out the etiquette demands the summoned demon to attempt to break out of its confinement and do his best to kill its summoner, but since it decided it failed, it was ready to answer the questions Dresden might have. It's crazy.
kumisz but you also have to be born with magic, which if I’m not mistaken, comes from ones maternal side.
Anyone can dream a circle, but they don’t have that little ounce of “will” to give it power.
Furthermore, Dresden Files are pure awesomeness.
That's what i love of the DF's magic system. It's varied and widespread like HP magic, but feels more grounded in reality, and has clear cut limitations, at least on the user's side.
How do I like a comment twice?
@@TheStonewall117 yes and no. While Dresden scoffs at pretenders' personal level of power, he does recognize that ritualistic magic can do some meaty shit given the right circumstances, and for some things don't require an ounce of magic (see the Necronomicon as mentioned in the Tomas Raith sidestory, the Never War) He's gone against muggles in Storm Front and Side Jobs, and both times ritual magic was plenty enough to put dresden, a wizard in the top 30 heavyweight combat wizards in the world (at a 10th the age of the other 29), in danger.
I think it's important to realize that technology should also follow these rules. As they say, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. If your sci-fi universe has FTL, then either you need to explain how it works or you can't make it a focus of your story's plot. If all you want to say is that the special engine allows for FTL, then the only major problem you can have is that the bad guys turns off the engine.
That's one of the things I like about Lord of the Rings. Magic such as the One Ring are more comparable to technology than might be in other settings, being simply "technology" crafted by a being which played a role in, and understands on an intuitive level, the workings of the physical universe.
(sorry for the bad english) yes I think the same. if you want one good book of sci-fi FTL war, read "The Forever War". critique of the war in vietnam and it have einstein law of relativity.
So at that point i think is mass effect a hard system for tech and star wars the soft system
@@akxorvakarian3597 yop
There's a small issue with the main rule of technology: our knowledge. If we take humans from 8000 BC, and show them a lighter or a penicillin, they will call it magick and impossible technology. If future humans will show us individual per human pocket dimension for stuff, or nanorobot immune system, we call it magick and say that it's impossible.
The main problem of technology is that we just can't understand how far we can get. We trying to apply old laws of storytelling to future. It's like human from 8000 BC will tell us about how lighter works with his language and his understanding.
"ting make fire. God of fire live inside ting."
I was so glad to hear Brandon Sanderson mentioned in the first 60 seconds. He is without question one of the greatest magic system designers in all of history, and should be included in every discussion like this.
Amen, Sanderson is the absolute best!!
Darrell Leber He really is the uncontested mast of it. His magic systems almost seem like characters in and of themselves.
Makes me want to re-read the mistborn trilogy again. Hands down my favorite book series.
TheJmaster11111 Kelsier was my Ned Stark.
Allow me to render him contested. I would prefer the Inheritance Cycle or even Harry Potter in comparison to Brandon Sanderson's work, having read a few of his books myself. He's overrated, and people are too willing to get on their knees and worship him.
"The hardest magic system is physics"
- some big brian dude from another comment section
@Mr. Obunga u heard me Mr. Obunga..
@Mr. Obunga i am commiting to the brian
Given it is the attempt to explain the world without using supernatural or magical explanations, I would suggest physics is the only system that doesn't use magic.
To a certain rocket scientist, physics brought to a high enough level is no different from magic. At least to the average user.
Like if we ever create hover boards, to a 3 year old, does it matter if it's done using physics or magic?
@@seanc9520 how is a three year old "average"? Of course someone that young might not be interested in how the device works. But then again they might. Why presume, and why make them so young in the first place?
As to whether it matters, that depends on who you are talking to, but for the majority I would suggest it matters a great deal! If it is physics, it will matter to those for whom the hoverboard has potential economic or travel implications- can the technology be replicated, rescaled, applied in different ways, can it be weaponised etc etc.
If it is magic it will likely matter even more! Where did this power come from, can anyone obtain it, what is its extent and potential, what does this mean for our view of life, the universe etc. In fact, for most people the revelation that magic exists would be the biggest, most mind blowing change to their world view they had ever experienced.
I'm not trying to be an arse here, you have a point in that for most people it is the end result not the method that matters, at least most of the time. But if it is a physics vs magic question- I think most people would like to know the answer if the possibility of the answer being "magic" is in anyway worth considering.
One thing to always mention on hard magic systems is the inverse of Clarke's Law; "Any magic sufficiently studied becomes indistinguishable from science."
alchemy in Fullmetal Alchemist for example
I just said that
Magic is never more than just science we don't understand yet.
Reginald Uy
I never liked that saying. Magic is a skill. Science is a method for understanding reality. Magic, if it existed, could be explained by science but it is not science itself.
STEMSWIM
NO YOUR WROG! AN A POOPOO HEAD!
As someone who wants to one day make an RPG with a highly intricate magic system and world around it, this has been a massively useful video.
I have a similar desire. I find it quite the challenge, especially when your trying for a more soft feeling. In an RPG things usually MUST have an explanation so that the players can reliably interact with it. The only way I see getting around it is introducing one or more harder systems for player use and them adding a few softer magical elements that MAY have some defined function but may also contain a random or unreliable element that the players have no control over.
Perchance the LARP and / or GURPS system already has a framework? Too, I don't think SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) has one, since they are a historical reenactment group.
Do you know the game outward? I think it conveys zhe feeling of a soft magic system perfectly. And is also really fun and varied.
💖💖💖
Mmm I like me some magic. Lemme explain my favourite one. Made in Abyss' "Curse of the Abyss" is probably my favourite magic system.
The "Curse of the Abyss" is a strange and invisible force that exists only within the "Abyss", a huge hole in the ground, and it acts like a trapdoor, allowing humans to enter the Abyss, but not ascend out of it. Well, at least not without some sort of suffering.
The curse reacts to human souls, inflicting physical and mental trauma as they go up. As you go deeper into the Abyss, the curse's effects get increasingly severe, ascend from the first layer of the abyss and you will only get mild nausea, but ascend from the fifth layer and you will loose your human form and become a blob of flesh with a human soul trapped inside. Lovely. Any deeper and you will face a certain and painful death. Even more lovely.
The people living around the Abyss regard the curse like a science, and while scientists understand the basics of the curse, the origin of it is unknown. While no animals seem to be affected by the curse, some of the creatures in the Abyss have evolved to detect fluctuations in the curse, which are caused by both physical movement and human (and probably also animal) thought. The Orbed Piecer, for example, can actually detect the fine disturbances caused by thought and thus can basically read the mind of it's prey and predict its actions.
Human scientists have also found ways of manipulating the curse, for example a certain scientist had the morally acceptable idea of using a human nervous system as a shield against the curse, allowing the user to ascend peacefully while the human nervous system absorbs the affects of the curse. Who knows what happens to the soul of the human sacrifice. I'm sure it's very very pleasant.
And that's why I love the Curse of the Abyss so much. It shapes the environment of the Abyss, creating all the amazing creatures and mad scientists, and combined with the show's mostly excellent writing and beautiful art, it creates some one of the most believable and intriguing worlds in fiction. Oops I wrote an essay. But there you go.
F for Nanachi's friends...
I was really hoping you'd start with Clarke's 3rd Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", which would have been a perfect fit for hard magic, but I like the episode either way.
I really appreciate you mentioned Ursula Le Guin - she's quickly falling into obscurity and that saddens me greatly.
I have a sci-fi universe where a lot of technologies are based on "energy", it's not just the energy we know like heat, kinetic and stuff like that, it's a raw form of energy, that is then manipulated and shifted to create thrusters, energy weapons, energy fields with different property that can range from a traditional energy shield, to hovercrafts to creating physical blades and tools that can change shape.
that energy also as an associated "crystal" material, whish can store battery, is the base to anything that manipulates energy, and can also radiate energy away in specific forms like radiation or in raw form, it's also used as a construction material like carbon fiber but with carbon nanotubes instead, with crystal serving as the catalyst (aka the resin that is poured onto carbon fiber to create sheets)
in a way, it's a single element apparated to a magic system that is then used as a base to create all kinds of technologies equivalent to stuff we can already do as well as stuff that we can't do.
it allows me to avoid stupid errors due to not being an expert in every material and technology known to man, while also offering more liberties that couldn't be possible in a sci-fi universe based entirely on existing materials.
Incoming videos are literally my favorite. 😊
A wizard did it
*Gandalf nods to Epic Sax guy*
After reading the title, first thought "Oooo, I wonder if they'll talk about Brandon Sanderson and the Cosmere"
Now I want a Cosmere video series.
Me too. But not right away cuz I havent finished reading it all
Jojo's Magic System: IT JUST WORKS!
STANDO POWAH
It's not magic. It's waterbending, and it's...
Yeah, yeah, an ancient art unique to our culture, blah blah blah.
Ironically, the Polish dub of Avatar calls bending "magic." Water magic, fire magic, etc.
I don't even...
Latin america dub called it "control"
agua control, fuego control, aire control
someone in the dub department must love shadow the hedgehog
You know, 'cause "chaos control" ...?
I'll see my self out...
@@PutoMedicoBrujo Love your name man hahahahh
@@spinnerboyz
Danke
Technically it is magic.
Personally I think the Dresden Files has one of the best magic systems, period. It's physically exhausting to the extreme when used excessively, and there are rules that are grounded in reality. Want to make a flame? You have to channel heat from somewhere, be it yourself or the area around you. Dresden made an ice bridge because he fired a massive pillar of flame into the sky. All the heat in the area in front of him (and a great deal of his own) was drained away. He nearly passed out (even simply chenneling magic/enegy takes a LOT of mental fortitude) and was nearly killed soon after. It's an amazing series by Jim Butcher and I hope you all take a second to read it.
Chimera PARKOUR!!!
@@TheStonewall117 I miss Lash ;_;
I got started on the series after checking out the wiki, and I love how its varied and detailed, but not too detailed to take away its mystery.
It is a very good series 💯👍
For me, magic has to be an active part of the story; either as something the characters are striving for and gradually gaining over course of their adventures or it should be something that is familiar to the characters and used as a tool in conjunction with other tools throughout the story.
I like "mysterious" magic systems. But as you mentioned, that doesn't have to be a soft magic system. The wargs in GoT have clearly defined rules and still had this mysterious vibe to them (maybe that's just because they barely ever used them for anything lol). I really want to make something like that as well.
One of the greatest "hard magic" systems I ever came across, was the magic in Eragon, where the spells a person could use were limited only by their imagination and the words they knew in the ancient language. If they knew the ancient word for fire, they could conjure and manipulate fire.
However, there was another limitation in that whatever the spell did, it would use the same amount of energy as it would do to do the same thing, by non-magical means. For example, if you threw a fist sized rock by magic, you'd barely notice the energy drain. If you attempted to pick up a massive boulder and throw it, even if you succeeded, it would leave you exhausted. If you attempted a spell beyond your means, you could expend all your energy and die.
TBH I prefer the flexibility of the Belgariad's Will and the Word (which Grammary was almost certainly based based on). Grammary is still a very good example of a hard magic system.
I totally agree, the whole time she was talking about hard magic systems I could only think of the Inheritance Cycle(the official name of the Eragon series) everything in it is incredibly well defined, balanced and logical.
There was more "wild" sorts magic you could use in the setting of Eragon. Stuff that doesn't use the ancient language. But yeah, its a pretty good system, whose very nature evokes a question of "who in the past managed to tie their language to the very workings of magic?"
@@SephirothRyu Brom explained it as it not just being A word for the thing, it was THE word for the thing. Even people had true names. The ancient language was just the discovery of those true names for various things. The fact people (entirely new creations) had true names, it seems to me like it's some primordial rule of the universe that everything has a true name, assigned at it's creation by the universe itself.
@@archlorddestin It kind of makes you wonder how the first speakers figured it out. How did they come to discover this language that seems to just be a verbal extension of the universe? Where Galbatorix found the Word was left really ambiguous, but he did have to spend decades looking for it, and he did find it written down by SOMEONE. Then there's the whole thing about wordless magic. Is the ancient language just a way to help people focus their thoughts, which are the real magic-making element? I have the first, third and fourth books practically memorized at this point, but I need to read Eldest. That's where a lot of the juiciest mechanics were explained.
Holy crap! The sudden and unexpected disappearance of magic is a fantastic concept for the setting of a story, especially one in a world where magic users are the ruling class.
I seem to remember an old jrpg where this was the premise, unfortunately I cannot remember what it's called, I think it was on one of the original two PlayStations tho
I like the magic system of Gothic. In Myrthana, magic is said to be "the fifth element" and it's energy is completely measurable, the best example being magical Ore - a resource that holds a charge of magical energy, making creations such as Ore mound to blow up something possible. The mages of Gothic are basically a combination of priests and engineers.
That's a really great episode, and I'm really glad you used FMA and ATLA as examples as they're possibly the best magic systems in media.
There is one magic system that I found really unique, and it's found on the Bartimaeus Sequance by Johnathan Stroud. Magicians have to summon demons in order to use that demon's power as humans have no magical power of their except in conjurations.
I highly recommend the series.
Yes! I loved it back when I read it in middle-school. It was pretty great.
I love how D&D incorporates all the general categories of magic and can be either learned or innate
I always loved the way that Shadowrun handled magic. You have a maximum number of spells based on your magic score. When you cast spells, you can make them as weak or powerful as you want, and the same spell has different variants based on area of effect and range (fire hands, flamethrower, fire ball). But there are three drawbacks. First drawback is that you must resist drain with each spell cast, so if you overclock a spell you run the risk of knocking yourself out or even killing yourself. You also leave a huge presence in the astral plane, making it easier to track. Finally, magic is affected by the world around you, and certain areas are changed by the type of magic cast or past events. These areas can enhance certain types of magic (such as toxic zones enhancing toxic magic, such as Chernobyl), make spellcasting ridiculously easy (such as Stonehenge), or attract shadow spirits or even shedim and/or has memories burned into it that affect any and all awakened mortals that enter it (Auschwitz being the glaring example).
Will you guys be ever be able to cover the SCP universe? Like a GOI that has more definite roots or history? Or cover the 001 Swann proposal for the SCP foundation that would explain the indefinite history of the foundation?
But there are a ton of channels dedicated to that
SCP has taken a nosedive in quality in the past few years.
Squishy Boi well nobody is asking them to dedicate their channel to it
SCP lacks any real canon, so it'd be pretty much impossible to cover
It's a massive collaborative writing project with no video footage to use and no single accepted canon. There is no way for them to cover it.
That time when you realize Avatar did bending so well you didnt even realize (or atleast isnt the first thing you think of) it was a magic system.
It tells you right in the pilot episode that it's magic. Just because they put a name to it doesn't mean that it isn't.
I just begun creating my own homebrew RPG system and im just starting work on how the magic of the my world works. This video couldn't have come out at a more perfect time!
The ending section gave me slight chills, she's good.
I'm usually big on Syfy but this episode is convinced me to at least try and dabbling in a little bit of a magical system alongside, thanks for the awesome video!
I would have loved to see mention of the Empyrion (Warp) and Psykers from 40k. How they can control the warp but all the wile their powers telegraph their presence to Daemons who are constantly trying to consume or possess them, this limiting how much they can submerse/lose themselves in their powers lest they explode.
As a Warhammer person, I've found this an interesting video; had the view of Warhammer's magic/psychic stuff to be very much a middle thing; thanks to it being a chaotic thing in nature. But this has been interesting.
The best magic system I have ever seen in any story is nen from Hunter X Hunter but it starts at around episode 25. Still the most creative system have ever encountered, what power would you create?
Try Indexverse. It had two power systems lmao.
@@rampagepotato4307 thanks
I loved to see this, a very well done presentation of Sandersons Laws of Magic was a joy to see. I recently saw some of his lectures and this covers the magic one nicely.
The only thing I was missing was a mention of Sandersons 0th Law of Magic: "Always err on the side of Awesome."
I wanted to say thank your for making this, I am in the process of writing a short story that I have had kicking around my brain for a while that involves magic. My problem was my magic system was untenable and this has given me some great ideas on how to make a usable magic system and given me an idea for evolution of the heroes powers..
The magic system I'm employing falls under several different categories; charmed object, elemental, and religious, definitely, and possibly shamanistic and/or psychic.
There's also other sources of magic.
3:28 "When I have a problem, I cast Molotov cocktail and then I have a different problem"
-Grand Archmage Jason Mendoza
Shouldve taken a look at Code Geass and its "magic" system and how well and clever it actually implements it within its context. Its a good example of Hard Magic but isnt on the extreme end of the spectrum.
Code Geass isn't magic but BScience...
Robert Jordan and The Wheel of Time, awesome books. And it does go into some detail about how the Aes Sedai channel their power
I can't get over how well thought through these ideas are. Well done. Definitely worth a rewatch.
Babylon 5 had multiple magic systems throughout its episodes. The mainstay were the Telepaths, exceptionally rare Telepaths were also Telekinetics, Technomages who use technology advanced to the point it is indistinguishable from magic to the uninitiated, and alien psychics who can see and predict the future.
This is the most critical moment in Templin’s channel. No human can create magic and master it.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Any magic indistinguishable from advanced technology is sufficient.
That's from the perspective of the user, hopefully not of tech support.
:-p
Good work. I'm not really a fan of Sanderson's rules, because they are misused more often than not, but they say something fundamental. The second part of the video was great on the other hand, made me think about magic.
What important example you forgot? Vancian magic, of course. Strict formulas of a freely flowing magic, much like programming, in theory you could use machine code to do whatever you want, but nobody is smart enough for that, so we use programs, prewritten snippets of code.
excellent video. It lays out much of what I've been reading for years in clear, concise language.
Surprised that DnD wasn't included or mentioned in this well made video. Though I would characterize them into the harder end of the magic. Also they are far into the learned scale, as any creature in Dungeons and Dragons with at least average intelligence can learn to cast at least basic magic.
I would define D&D as mixed systems. It has lot of hard elements but in principle is soft.
Well, there is 'wish' and 'divine intervention'. And the magical power of homebrew.
Every time somebody uses DnD instead of D&D, a dolphin gets hit with a jetski.
Good day.
@@TheRezro Why though? Magic is extremely well-defined. So much so, in fact, that when Mystra nuked high-level magic after the first-ever 12th level spell it made 100% perfect sense. If you're suggesting that it's soft magic because some people such as Sorcerers don't have to study their magic to understand it, then you misunderstood the definition of soft magic like most people. It's not whether or not characters in the universe understand it, it's about whether or not we the audience understand it. That's why Harry Potter's parents defending him during his duel against Voldemort in The Goblet of Fire wasn't a copout. He didn't understand it, but we the audience have been made to understand that love is a more powerful magic than anything a wand or potion could produce. Is it cringey to say that he was saved by the "power of love"? Yes, but its power was explained to us previously and has a place in that magical system, even if Harry didn't understand what he was wielding.
@@QrazyQuarian Learn what those terms mean before entering this discussion 🙄
Great video as always. I hope you do a follow-up video explaining the impact of magic on the world it comes from. Like for example the economy, religion, daily life, floura and fana ex you know the world and society as a whole if magic was apart of it.
I also want to know if you will also do a video explaing the opposit of magic which is Technology more specifically pseudoscience and fantastical technology in Science Fiction. Since a lot of the arguments you made about magic can be applied oppositly and relevant to pseudoscience and fantastical technology in Science Fiction.
As a famous science fiction writer once said `Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic´.
Alright, let me say that when I saw this video, I was hoping for specifically Fullmetal Alchemist and Avatar to be in here, so I'm really happy about that. And the specific part about alchemy, that was one of the best puns you guys have ever used, very well done. I remember a similar video being made by HelloFutureMe that was also good, but his was from a more literature-based point of view, while this one was very factual and analytical. Excellently done! One of my favorite videos to date.
The way this is made is so awesome. With the blue voice thingy and all that
Definitely coming back to this time and time again
Generally we can distinguish three main types of magic, usually defining whole systems, though not being mutually exclusive. Hard Magic what is specific set of rules (example: Alchemy from Full Metal Alchemist), Soft Magic what can do everything, but usually fallow eldritch logic with tendency of not being realizable to offset it being OP. And technology as magic, according to third law of Clarke.
But speaking in more detail about common systems we usually distinguish: Ritual Magic (so set of magic worlds, gestures and practices causing effect utilized by Wizards and Mages), Inherited Magic aka Sorcery, what usually rely on emotions and tend to drain energy of caster, but usually don't rely on complex knowledge but emotions. And finally contracts with higher entity. Either more direct like summoning utilized by warlocks or faith, what is more collective contract signed by whole groups with entity perceived as deity. Those usually are less realizable as priests tend to not have leverage over they contractor.
I do think a couple points of discussion should be opened on this. While in general, I agree with Sanderson's Laws, I think calling the 1st a "Law" as such is a stretch. Harry Potter itself broke its laws all over the place. The magic rules seemed to reset every book at times. No one really complained about this until Rowling started dumping on her material herself in the past few years. Also both The Black Company & The Malazan Book of the Fallen have detailed magic systems that it is many books before the readers understand. In the latter, we're introduced to Holds long before Warrens are fully explained. And how otatarel nullifies magic is a mystery until literally the last third of the last book of the main sequence. I think it's important the author know the rules, present them consistently, and expand our knowledge of the system.
I do not think it's necessary to exposit the rules of magic before using it. Or for the characters to be right about it all the time. For examples of the last, see both David Drake's Lord of the Isles series, and Jim Butcher's Dresden Files & Codex Alera.
It's pretty convenient that you guys made this video because I recently started writing a fantasy story, and this video is a big help
I'm sort of bummed you didn't bring up The Dresden Files, easily one of my favorite magic systems with so many different facets
First, I want to say I appreciate the hard work behind the video and the way it clearly lays out most of what we know about magic systems so far. One thing I have doubts is the placement of some of the magic systems on the spectrums in the video. For example, Star Wars is marked as heavily soft, but I'd say by the time you start devouring books, you have a pretty good understanding of the limitations and possibilities of what Jedi can do. There's a limited amount of canon powers they can wield and we can expect a rookie jedi not to be able to perform certain feats that a master jedi could easily do. Therefore, I think the right place for SW on hard/soft spectrum is somewhere closer towards the middle, still leaning to the soft side though.
Star Wars table top RPG, starting with WEG west end games d6 system, the WotC wizard of the coast D&D/Star Wars d20 - 3rdE, then 3.5e, follow with 4e Saga Edition, and what even they got out currently now.
Then 1990's novels and Darkhorse comics really inspire RPG players to bend and break the rules of WotC 3e system for dramatic effect in game play.
Thank you for this. This may help me solve sot problems I am having in my writing
For magic systems, oh boy am I getting a headache on mine. The best way I can describe it is... [deep breath] Imagine the code system from The Matrix, where select few able to read it somehow interpret it into a visual manifestation of what is going on in real time, only in this case it's writing that code to manifest and manipulate physical matter. "Programing" the code it into a cog wheel made of a luminescent material with the physical properties of iron but the visual properties of corundum with essentially a blueprint of a machine or elemental effect while it simultaneously absorbs raw materials required to create it. Then when the cog wheel is electrically stimulated it will then manifest and assemble the desired machinery or effect around it, when deactivated the manifestation will then disassemble and store it again where materials and programming can repair and improve upon it.
This allows a skilled craftsman to design impossible machines that will be magically constructed, resulting in complex weapons and armor, Cannons that manifest and fire bolts of energy, stationary engines that can produce sufficient thrust to defy gravity, and other creations all powered by magic.
Then there are the people in my world where (thanks to generations of exposure due to geographic isolation) have the material in their bloodstream instead of iron and are actually able to manipulate it to perform elemental magic without the aid of a mechanical apparatus but require they literally have every runic symbol in the code tattooed on their skin using ink infused with the material to act as an interface that requires a lifetime of training to master.
like I said, a headache
I love you guys. You're getting my thumbs up purely on the inclusion of sanderson's laws of magic. It's a fantastic video by the way but the fact that you are Sanderson readers or at least view his laws as sound just ups my appreciation for this channel and it's creators. You two are the best.
I really enjoy how Brent Weeks does his magic through both The Night Angel trilogy and his recent works of The Light Bringer series, both are interesting and The Light Bringer series is much to be desired in a magic world.
Sorcery, or "The Will and the Word" from David Eddings' Belgariad and Mallorian series. Great example of a system that falls somewhere in the middle of the Hard-Soft scale. They can do almost anything they can imagine, but there are also very strict limitations, with dire consequences if you break them.
Thank you for doing a video that explains the difference in magic systems that Sanderson laid out, this video was extremely informative and well put together. I liked it very much indeed. If you guys are open to recommendations on future videos, and bear in mind that I might have put forward this one already, but how about a video exploring the *Blackwood Detective Agency* from the *Call of Cthulhu Collectible Card Game,* that could be interesting.
Terry Goodkind has a great magic system in the Sword Of Truth series, awesome fantasy series for anyone looking for a good read.
I was pleasantly surprised to find you expanded on Hello Future Me's discussion of the topic by adding the learned/innate axis. Great analysis!
My favourite hard magic system comes from Eragon. There are two to three (depending on how you count) rules, that make everything perfectly clear:
1 The magician has to focus on what he wants to achieve, while channelling his energies
2 An Expression in elven language is not mandatory, but due to its connection with the magic itself, it can help to clearly define a spell and avoid terrible accidents
3 A spell will draw the amount of energy required from its caster, which can even cause a wizard to faint or die from his own spell
The Best Episode so far i must say. Great work Templin Institute.
i have an idea for a fictional world but i didn't know how to make the magic in it work in the story until i saw your video, it was really helpfull, great job
So impressed to hear Brandon Sanderson's magic system. Some of the best books I've read are his works. I'm (impatiently) waiting for his Stormlight Archive novels.
Journey before destination my friend
Great video, clearly defines and clarifies trends in a lot of magic systems
If Yugioh and My Little Pony has taught me anything, it's that friendship is the greatest magic.
Reading the title I wondered if you'd mention Sanderson and I'm so happy you did. He's the pro at magic systems. Also talking about Sanderson, would you ever do a video on some of his books? I think that'd be great!
I would really like to see this channel do an entire series on the Cosmere. Any chance you would consider that?
Apparently Not... It's been 3+ years now....
As soon as i read the name of the video i knew you guys needed to talk about Brandon Sanderson. That man has invented over a dozen (so far) different magic system in the Cosmere universe and every single one of them work perfectly!
I'm very thankful for this video. I'm maintaining an effort to write for the sake of exploring my own imagination, and although it's easy to find inspiration in published fiction and instructional or analytical content, it's still really difficult to dissect what I'm learning and reorganize it into something of my own. This video ranks high among analytical videos I've watched, even though I've already heard most of the ideas in it.
I'd love an in-depth analysis of a fantasy world with a lot of fleshed-out variety in it, like Cyrodiil. Perhaps you could consider questions such as these: If everyone in Cyrodiil has innate magical ability, why is the study of magic not their highest priority? Why do farmers and miners use simple iron tools when the magical "technology" exists to move objects telepathically or create explosions? What is the process by which necromancers can compel a corpse to walk again, or healers mend wounds? Why do alchemical ingredients have such novel properties while food is still merely nourishment, with small exception? Where does the energy to cast spells come from? Why is it depleted by spell casting, and restored merely by living?
Season 2 of Netflix's Castlevania came out a couple weeks ago, and I enjoyed it even more than Season 1. Perhaps you could include this in a future Incoming episode, or another episode type. (Spoiler Alert) I particularly enjoyed learning about the Devil Forgemasters Hector and Isaac, Sypha's attack on Dracula's castle, and Dracula's death. When Dracula is killed it seems as though the souls of the people he had killed came flooding out of him. Where did he keep them all? How are they used to make him more powerful?
My all-time favorite fantastical universe is Garth Nix's Old Kingdom, which has a strong emphasis on necromancy and enchantment. I could talk about it all day long but I hardly know anyone else who knows of it. A Templin Institute video on THAT series would be like a dozen Christmas presents in one.
So warhammer falls pretty close to the middle right beacause some psykers are taught some are instinctual
I think psykery is instinctual, the training mostly comes from harnessing it, channeling it and protecting yourself from Chaos. Unless of course you play for Chaos, then go nuts.
But dont navigators have zero power unless they get trained
@@aaronbiduk813 Navigators do have power. Their training is so they don't accidentally daemons everywhere.
@@Lightscribe225 you say that as if daemons everywhere is a bad thing... ;)
Psykers are sort of a middle ground. They are innate in that they have the abilities from birth. However they need to be trained to fulfil their potential and avoid the risks of becoming a portal for warp entities. However Chaos sorcerers, although normally psykers, don't have to be. They simply need to follow the correct rituals (although a sorcerers who is also a psyker may be able to cut some corners).
Did you guys ever do a follow-up to this episode as was mentioned that there could be?
This is simply magical!
I really needed this...i'm very thankful.
Another interesting thing that can be done is implied hard magic - where the reader has little understanding of the rules but there is an understanding that there are rules and that they are understood by at least some of the characters. It's generally treated by the author as soft magic but by the characters as hard and can create the impression of a complex magic system that truly requires extensive study to understand. An example is potion-making from Harry Potter - we are told to just accept that a certain combination of ingredients and technique makes a specific potion and that new ones can be introduced all the time but there's an understanding that behind the scenes there is a logic to what ingredients and actions do what, and that someone with enough mastery could apply these rules in new ways. It allows Rowling the freedom to invent new potions without much restriction but still gives the impression of a highly complex and intellectual endeavour that can be learned with considerable effort, allowing us to be impressed by the Half-Blood Prince for instance in a way that wouldn't work if we could work it out ourselves. It's sort of how the layperson sees programming, for instance, which in a way grounds it - we can relate to the position of not understanding something others do, making its use in magic feel believable.
I like you so much just for putting Sanderson's rules of magic there.
I'm working on a fantasy work with a magic system reliant on the gods. This video helped solidify who uses that magic and why. Simply put, only the servant of a god can use that power and only what they allow for a specific task.
The Inheritance Cycle by Christopher Paolini is another good example of a very well designed magic systems.
Follows Sanderson's 3 laws very well.
The interesting thing about magic in warhammer and warhammer 40k, is that it is simply the warp, which can manifest in various ways, either through occult rituals, favour of the gods or innate abilities like psykers. The interesting thing in warhammer and 40k is that the power is virtually limitless but it has a will of its own, alligning yourself with the gods might therefore still not grant you unlimited power as either they or the warp itself may turn on you at any moment. Ironically one of the best ways to shield oneself from the effects of their own magic in warhammer and 40k is to NOT understand that it is the power of the warp, but wholeheartedely believe it is something else, which will shape the warp to behave as if it was that something else. The Warp is weird that way. My point, it falls basically everywhere on the spectrum rather than only on the middle religious end.
Don’t forget the book “Eragon”. I find that the fantasy elements and magic system are pretty well-developed
Yes
3:18
Shouldn't that be "Deus Ex Magica" ?
I... guess...?
Saying is reference to device (machina) used to put plot resolving character (deus) on the stage in Greek theater. Not every DEM need to be magic, but magic is one of most abused DEM's ever.
Thank you! Best video I've seen on the subject!
I hope Shad from Shadiversity is listening to this. He also starts from Sanderson whenever he talks about magic.
I personally like the sort of systems where magic is taxing on the body, but there is no hard limit (what i mean is that your 'mana' is like stamina, where once your'e out you could still push on with enough effort, while being at the risk of mental or even physical damage) and items like staffs and wands aren't strictly required but make it easier to channel the energy. my optimal magic system would be this:
- your 'mana' is simply how much energy you can expend using magic before you risk backlash from your body
- magical items (i mean things like wands) simply make it easier to cast
- the amount of energy it takes to cast a spell is directly correlated to how much effort you put in (the first time you do something is usually the hardest, is it not? and the more you do it the easier it is and the lower amount of effort you need)
- the strength of a spell is directly correlated to the effort used (so a spell that delivers a blunt attack from nothing could either be a playful slap or could be an absolute sucker punch)
- 'active' actions such as moving an object or taking control of something requires more than a 'passive' action which could be sight enhancements or mind reading (because doesn't it take more energy to lift a heavy bag than it does to read a book series?)
Brandon Sanderson’s zeroth law of magic is always err on the side of what is AWESOME!!!!
My one big critique is the lack of distinction between what the characters know and what the audience knows. For example, magic might be very hard, explicit and predictable, from the character's perspective and yet be very soft from the audience's perspective. It is the audience perspective of the magic that Sanderson's laws apply to, not the in-world functioning of the magic. You can have the magic be very hard in-world and yet leave it mysterious to the audience so you can use it to add wonder and awe, or the other way and make it rather soft in-world but explain it well enough to use for solving problems.
still hope you guys come back to this, you guys rock!
I was just watching the magic system videos by Hello Future Me
I have to say i kept expect a cut away with a wizard did it. But seriously Hello Future me did a very good video similar to this.
I very much like how Sanderson approaches the whole build-up of magic, and how he created his laws, based on Clarke's Three Laws about technology.
And here you explained it very well!
This was fantastic advice for any would-be creative. Knowing where your boundaries are on the axes helps to determine the extent that you wish to analyze your magic system. The ONLY concession I'd make against this video was how you associated Shamanism with Doctor Strange.
C'mon, Templin! Shaman King is right there, down to the words! 🧙🏻♀It's even HARDER than Doctor Strange, since the Oversoul Weapons relate directly to the spirit being channeled!
Genuine video, very well done. Loved the identifying of *magic*. Also happy you used Warhammer scenes haha, wonder where 40k would fall in your charts. Anywho excited for the next one.
There's something special about finding out that you've been doing something right the whole time. Considering things from magical ecology to magical economy, the way things manifest and the different systems used in a world. Wards are different from charms are different from enchantments, but they can coexist. Gem-based magic users manifest differently from manaborn, who manifest differently from messiahs, and they can coexist. Gods and dædras can have no relation to eachother but can still coexist. Alchemy and potionmaking and gastronomy; witches and mages and wizards and crones can all coexist in the same world without much stretch. Nothing is mutually exclusive to anything else, even an opposite cannot exist without a counterpart. Even the difference between manic fields and reality manipulation is not large enough to rule one out with the other.
I’m so glad you used Brandon Sanderson rules for magic, he’s my favourite author
I thought the same thing. Although I have to say Robert Jordan's wheel of time series is my favorite I really love Sandersons cosmere universe. I've only just gotten into it though
I really want a book focused on a bad guy. In fantasy we always hear about these terrible bad guys waging wars in the past, distant or recent, and for once I'd like a book focused on someone like that. I dont care if they win or lose but it'd be interesting to see a story from that side. Anyone know something like that?
The Chronicles of Malus Darkblade. Seriously good stuff.
Have you considered making videos on The KingKiller Chronicle? A very interesting magic system there
I'd love if you guys did more videos featuring the Cosmere.
With a Wheel of Time series on the way you should do some on that, you could make several dozen videos on Randland.
It would be really cool if you did Nerv from Neon Genesis Evangelion
Absolutely!
Elex from the world of Elex is a good example of magic. When consumed by man, those who cant handle it are transformed into mindless mutants while those who can are gifted hightened physical abilities yet loose their emotion with prolonged use. The Berserkers of Edan have figured out how to create a type of anti-elex, which can counteract the emotion draining effects, give magical abilities (like shooting fire from you hands), and can even drain elex from the ground. Yet unlike elex, mana is not wide spread and doesn't travel far, while elex has seemingly seeped into everything. Elex is also used to power technology, and has been instrumental at assisting technological advancement and rediscovery since the commit hit. (The mentioned _commit_ brought elex btw.)
Lovely to see your videos at such an early time.