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Mango Talks: Armada, The GOAT, & Melee's Meta
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2020
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Edited By: / kingly98
#Melee #Smashbros #Mango
This is the most legitimately angry I've seen mang0, like usually with online arguments he's just kind of laughing and being half serious but you can tell he's super serious and kind of upset about this
Yeah been watching him stream for 5 years and I completely agree. Mango almost never gets actually upset, and he's pretty pissed here.
I would be upset too. Armada/Mango was (in most people's opinion, I think) the hypest melee rivalry that there ever was. Aramda pushed Mango to be better at the game, and vice versa - then just as they were both getting to be the best they ever were, Armada quit.
Like Mango said, there was so much more melee to be played.
@@whs1pmjazz Yeah, he's been pretty pissed off at Armada since Armada retired and started talking shit.
I mean as Mang0 said this "When Armada said that he would still be good in this meta and that the meta has not change", it pissed off Mang0 a lot cuz it is fucking disrespectful for people who still competes, and that players who have gotten to the very top like iBDW , N0ne and Zain. As much as I like Armada , if he is gonna do these comments, he should comeback from retirement and compete again.
I think hes been kind of unfair
"The second you stop competing, you can't say, 'I would be good,' because it takes away from the people who are competing."
*PREACH*
So he cant beat amsa, wizzy or axe?
ppmd was 2 year off and beat everyone
Tech is the same
Match up difference is only for cap falcon, falco and marth
The only threat are the top 7, mango still cant beat hbox
@@sujetonormal3399 Did you not even watch the video?
@@sujetonormal3399 i never said you cant come back and dominate if you try, but if you arent competing and arent gonna come back you cant say i would be the best, or i am the best, then thats disrespectful to the people competing.
"ITS NOT MY FAULT HE SD'S WITH A CHARACTER THAT HAS LIKE 6 JUMPS"
LMAO
XD
Rawr
I laughed so hard when Mango said this. 🤣
My cheeks are fixed in lol positions!! send help.
thank you for the timestamp man!
The meta has advanced so much that hbox took 6 months off and is now losing to literally everyone who didn’t.
And look at what happened to everyone who played ultimate. Plup and leffen took months to e from how bad ultimate made them, and they only stopped competing for a few months!!
@@pIayingwithmahwii idk plug and Leffen really didn’t look that bad In last weeks slippi if anything it’s just that players like zain are just insane so maybe in comparison
@@ninjump9 he’s inzain
I’m talking about when ultimate came out. Mango and zain were the only top level who didn’t leave temporarily for ultimate.
And plup had a series of bad tourneys after ultimate came out.
Also none ibdw and fiction kept playing melee after ultimate came out which is why these guys are all almost at the top top level
When he got 3-0d by zain with a 4 stock in a 5 minute bo5
Armada getting baited out of retirement by Mango is going to be so funny
You just might be on to something. Mang0's pressure is godlike
100% not going to happen
This will never happen. Armadas ego is way to fragile to come back and get bodied by everyone and having to admit he was wrong.
@@dylanfarris7647 He also had the fortitude to be that dominant, I don’t think you can count that out entirely
@@dylanfarris7647 Armada has proven throughout years that he can stand at the top with different meta's how do you think he's gonna get bodied by everyone in todays meta (if he is given the time)
Mango’s IQ triples when he talks about the melee meta
It's insane. He thought South America was Africa the other day but as soon as he's talking about melee, he has a PhD
@@_Majunior lol and he thought Europe was a country at The Big House 6
@@joemoliterno9117 27 IQ jk. He's no genius, but there's no way he is as dumb as he tries to be sometimes.
Edit: No more pogchamp
@@_Majunior he said one time he didn't know there were 4 transformations on stadium
@@adamice2526 there are?
It's so unfortunate zain never got another chance vs armada
Very fortunate for Armada. I don't think he can beat him, if he was 2-3 in his las 5 sets with a book writing semi retired M2K
There last matchup was a game 5 set, and this was before Zain was top 10
@@cameronisenhower7554 zain in 2018 took him to last game last stock. Imagine what Zain now can do
idk about that, really not a stretch to assume zain would kick his ass
@@adamice2526 What tournament you are talking about? I don't remember that.
I only saw Armada destroying Zain. Zain is not that good vs Peach at the highest level.
This whole video is the biggest "TELL EM MANGO" of all time
This is the cell games arc and everyone’s training in the hyperbolic time chamber
is zain perfect cell?
@@pIayingwithmahwii If anything Armada is perfect cell because he's not training like everyone else because hes so confident he can win
@@hollowtrees6669 Armads is totally Mr. Satan or Krillin now. Would totes destroy a rando, but has nothing on Mangoku, Leffrieza, or insert witty Zain dbz pet name here.
@@grizzykuma5246 Infinite Zainmasu
@@grizzykuma5246 lol wrong but ok
Damn, it's about time someone said it. Was getting old hearing "well it's online, it doesn't count" or "it would be waaay different on LAN." Most of the top players have the proper setup to emulate CRT. Jesus it was YEARS ago where the Faster Melee team said that of you have a good monitor with a fast response time and high refresh rate, you have to set a buffer of 6 because otherwise it will be FASTER than CRT.
I think it's lazy to hear that excuse. If you legit don't have a setup for it, then I get it. But most players do now. No excuses.
Damn, you play Melee? Last time I saw you, all of your content was catered to Zoomers. You’re right though.
I mean playing in person is definitely different (just like pro sports is different without the spectators) but but that's not an excuse for Armada at all.
@@treycuret If you're talking about the "Online doesn't count. We're good :)" I think you're misreading. Every other tweet and discussion on stream about online shows that he thinks online is legit, so to me at least it came off as sarcastic/mocking the people that use that as an excuse. During stream after losing (this happened with Zain the week after), his emphasis was on being disappointed in himself and his own gameplay/mentality. I really don't think he's actually blaming online, especially given how fucking nuts his setup is.
Naaaaah. If that was true then we'd just play online. Save thousands in the process. When we can go back to LAN , that's what we'll do, because it matters more, because there's less turbulence with playing (top players regularly complain about lag), because it simply is the best way to play.
This is literally when your funny friend randomly gets serious about something and goes off
Mang0s argument was surprisingly articulate lmao
5:43 😩 he has such a way with words
mang0 is wicked smart, nothing surprising about it
Not really. He was straw manning Armada's arguments lol.
Mang0 isn't dumb he's just Mang0.
2:40 "Because the whole point of entering tournaments and the whole structure of why we play in tournaments is so that you prove you are good. Once you stop competing, you're not. That's it. You give away that right. That right is now gone. You forfeit it. You could say 'Yeah I'd be good' but it holds zero precedent."
The beginning of this video hits so differently now. Mang0 literally never stops arguing his goat status now
Mang0 actually has a legit argument here, changed my mind
Absolutely same
I think Armada and Mango both have valid points. Look at it from Armada's view; he essentially was at the top of his game with the only person challenging him at the time being Hbox (someone he hated playing against and having to practice for). Nobody else was even really trying. Look at Mango from 2015-2018. Are we not gonna act like that man was basically playing like he was retired and just going through the motions? He didn't have the same drive to be the best like he does now or that he had in 2013-2014. He was focused on building his stream. Armada had nothing else to do in Melee or anything left to prove; he had gotten burnt out of grinding vs Puff and so he quit.
Now, suddenly, players are hungry again to be the best. I haven't seen Mango try this hard to be the best in YEARS! Zain is hungry. iBDW is hungry. The meta is finally interesting again and not stagnant. As Armada, it has to be insanely frustrating to see people suddenly start trying again a year after you retire. If people were trying this hard and challenging him back then, he may not have even retired to begin with. Now he has to listen to people say he's basically washed and was "good for his time". I'd be fucking pissed too.
I absolutely think Mango has legit arguments, but people are largely ignoring why Armada would feel the way he does. Armada is, at the very least, still the GOAT for the time being. Mango has to be top 1-2 for two more years I think if he wants it back.
@@Prodigial I think armadas stance is understandable but it’s wrong. I can see why he would be upset because the situation sucks. He retires and then people wanna try, that blows. But to say he could still hang with the best players today after being so out of shape or to say that the meta hasn’t changed much after not participating in competitive play. Cmon. That’s bullshit.
@@Prodigial people just got better at the game armadas wrong saying the other players weren’t trying is bullshit maybe mango but you can’t say that about leffen and whoever else the meta has changed
@@MrBakerman58 Let's do a quick run down. You had Armada and Hbox who were trying. Mango who was entirely focused on streaming. Leffen and Plup who both got tilted out of this universe b/c of Hbox to the point where Plup hasn't been serious about Melee in god knows how long. Who is left? Everybody who was trying was nowhere near Armada and Hbox's level. I guess Leffen had a good matchup vs Armada but he objectively did worse than Armada vs everyone else.
The retired players have a discord server called, "The GOAT's of Melee" lmao
Please say that's just a joke haha
22:37
"Melee: Civil War dude. People who play the game every day vs people who haven't played in years. It's like old white guys commenting on abortion."
This man spittin' hellfire.
Is this to say that old white guys don’t deserve a say in abortion because they’ve never ended a fetus and are old, therefore extremely far from being fetuses? I don’t follow
@@nicememe8608 I assume it's cause they aren't "playing the game" anymore, as in, they are old and not getting some anymore
@@Gabrielnfs maybe. to me it seemed like the game here was aborting fetuses
The guy who hasn't had to play Zain and doesn't even have Slippi installed said the meta hasn't changed in the last two years. LMAO
Leffin picked up a Sheik secondary just to deal with Marth, if that isn't a sign of a meta change then what the hell is?
I think that example should be taken with a grain of salt.
People picking up specific characters for match-ups has happened in the past. With the difference being that it was mostly only one / a few people who did so, not the majority.
- Leffen, as one of the best Fox players ever, had a unique problem against Samus' for a good amount of his career. Was that a meta change for Fox and/or Samus? Not really since no other Fox has had such a big problem against them, therefore it was a unique case of a players habits getting exploited / countered by specific players and/or their specific character.
- M2K, back at his prime, still had a huge struggle against Ice Climbers and Wobbling. With ICs it was not uncommon to sometimes get upset by one because of Wobbling but no one can deny that he had a especially hard time against that character, no matter if he played with Fox or Marth (and there were many more other mains who did not do as badly against Wobbling). Was it a meta change when he tried picking up Peach for that MU? Probably not.
With the current situation that is Zain vs. Foxes it could become an actual change in meta:
1) He is one of the top players currently and will most likely play at many more torunaments, therefore a match against him is always to be expected.
2) Because of that each and every Fox main (not just one specific player) has to adapt with their character because he dominates that MU pretty convincingly. If now everyone has to play a certain way in that MU or has to pick up a Secondary just for Zain then yes, that would be a change in meta. And that would be big enough of a meta change since we had cases like that happen already over the course of the game.
3) If more Marth mains were to stomp on Foxes on the regular than that would be an even bigger change in meta but that is something one has to wait and see how it will go.
And what about the entirety of the Puff-Marth meta
@@Exorion ALso , "Prime" Mew2king was still bitching about Jigglypuff and wanted Jigglypuff banned lol. Mew2king even pick up puff for those puff ditos in which he would get bodied.....
Nah, leffen has been Marth complainer DAY1
At one point he’s gonna be Ken
Exactly what I was thinking.
Ken is still a legend with a legacy. So is Armada. He's left his mark and is simply over it?
FRRRRRR
Ken never tried to argue that he was the GOAT. He knew his legacy and accepted his legacy.
Ken also supports the scene as much as he can. He comes to events, and even helped new player come up (Like Santi)
@@cencil6497 ken would be the goat if he won Survivor
How can mang0 retire? He's the main character in this anime.
the show will just do the JoJo's approach when his kid is old enough
hbox the secret main character
@@Carvaka if hbox wins a online tourney then maybe.
@@gelo6099 why? to overtake mang0's single victory? give me a break.
@@Carvaka well there’s not really a story with hbox atm he just sorta lost. Maybe if he came back and won one that would be a nice story. Since everyone is basicly saying he’s trash.
Armada to mang0 is like that one girl that you were really into, and you thought she was really into you, but out of nowhere she started ghosting you and gave you no closure whatsoever. You just gotta hold it 😔
2:08 I love this statement from Mang0. It's not often that I feel what Mang0 says 100%, but it's true. If you feel like you can compete in the current meta, that's fine. However, at some point, there's no difference between not being able to compete in the meta because you aren't there yet skill-wise, and not developing the skills because you don't want it enough.
mang0 adds that touch of wwe spice to melee that makes it more entertaining.
BY GAWD THATS ARMADAS MUSIC
GOD AS MAH WITNESS, PUFF'S SHIELD IS BROKEN IN HALF
I feel like mango has so much to say but just stays quiet to avoid conflict, but I honestly love his thoughts here. It feels like hes been on edge about a lot of these topics for a while and finally got to let it out
mango: "You know what I mean?"
me: I know exactly what you mean.
Mango is pretty on the dot, especially with all the new tools people have to improve, but man I hope this doesn't turn people to bandwagon and downplay everything Armada has done just from his bad take.
No ones is downplaying though, the only one who will do that is time itself, he can't retire and expect to be the GOAT forever
@Ioulum yeah but he also doesnt think hes close to losing it
@@thirstyfajita4115 because he isn't. To lose it someone would have to have a case that is more impressive than Armada's, which might happen but at the moment there's literally zero indication that it will. The magnitude of his achievements are basically a combination of the extent of dominance, the length of dominance, and the level of competition. In terms of extent, he's maybe only surpassed by Ken? - basically always hitting #1 or at least #2 consistently, tournament after tournament. In terms of length he's also among the best, and actually succeeded in beating the best of different eras (Mango pre-Armada, Hbox post-Armada). But most importantly, the level of competition when he played was at its absolute highest. Mango, full tryhard Hbox, full tryhard Leffen, to name the most relevant. He beat them all. Melee absolutely doesn't have that level of competition anymore. Maybe it will some day, but it's not there yet. Then people are going around acting like Zain is going to take Armada's title because of one year of dominance, when Zain can't even manage to beat an electric rat. It's just so laughable and the recency bias is repulsive.
@@richardbogart4653 spot on
Greatest of ALL TIME
Yes he can retire and be the goat. Nobody has a run like his.
I love it when Mang0 says Hmmm
interesting
Obscure comparison but He sounds like the English VA for the Sonic Ova when he says it 😂
FYI armada was 2-6 in 2018 vs Leffen and 9-9 vs Leffen the last two years... so mango was kinda talking out of his ass on that. He wasn’t wrong that it was edging in Leffen a favor a bit towards the end, but they’ve had plenty of back and forth before and it wasn’t an out of the ordinary streak. Leffen was 25-29 overall vs armada.
Didn't scars dad tell him wtf you think your gonna be the best forever? One day someone's gonna show up and be better than you. HE HAD NOTHING TO SAY CAUSE HES RIGHT! To mang0s point at some point youre gonna get dethrone.
That story is so fucking funny
Scars dad is a legend
Keep in mind this is the same man who was manipulated into buying M2K chicken nuggies with his own cash, just saying
@@grizzykuma5246 Well when the world is in order, some men are infallible. The moment you throw in a little chaos, these men can break.
Armada’s argument reminds me of old school Ken when he really thought that he was still the best in the world even after being retired. It’s tone deaf and absurdly prideful / egotistical
When did Ken ever said that. He is for sure more humble about his legacy then these two are.
Armada showed a level of dominance that no other melee player has ever shown (you could argue hbox, but that was post armada). The question of who is the GOAT is always a feeling thing, and for me it’s Armada.
I think what Mang0 says about the whole “meta hasn’t changed” argument is correct, though. That’s just being willfully ignorant.
"If I could Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind Armada, from Melee, in my brain, I would in a heartbeat."
I'm laughing so damn hard. 🤣
I'm back after two years. Aramada somehow brought this topic back. lol
Large clips of this will inevitably be in a promo video for the renewed rivalry set
Big brain prediction, i can see it already
"I love people getting better it just means I gotta get better right?" Amazing
As much as I love Mango, Armada is still the Goat. The dominance and consistency is unmatched. He brings up Armada losing to Leffen before his retirement, while Mango has routinely lost to people outside of the top 6 for the last 5 years.
Right, all while he was still ranked above Leffen AND Mango at that time.
Mango loses to Magi and flipsy
Take a shot every time mango repeats the same idea 4 times in a row
LMAOO "poor magi never had a chance, I was furious that whole time"
Armada never said no one can get better and that people arent improving or any of that. From his own words when asked on twitch, all he said was "it hasn't changed that much" 8 months after he stopped playing. We should really try to be more understanding of each other, there's more commonality than we probably think.
Mang0 has the GOAT mentality. He'll get it back soon. He's committed now.
Armada knows he's irrelevant at this point. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Armada moved on. However he is still clinging on to his ego and saying he can still beat people. Armada go ahead and rejoin. There is Slippi. Go prove it. You sitting in silence saying that you're the GOAT and not doing anything to prove it means nothing. Armada is gonna be Ken 2.0 if you don't do anything. Armada retires when the meta is changing and can't keep up. Nothing else to say.
Also in regards to Hbox's comment about the crowd powering him up and it not being the same(correct me if im wrong if he did say that) is that the crowd boos him and even threw a crab. What power up is there? LOL
@@EggyEggroll hatred or being the unwanted definitely drives people. Sometimes it’s fun to be a villain
I'd love to hear this topic talked about again on the podcast you do with Zain and Leffen, I'd love to hear their thoughts and opinions on it.
Mango legit has the best mindset about this whole thing. I love that he always wants to push himself and everyone playing to be better. A lot of players have grown a shit ton since Armada left, and I think if he played today, he would find players he was winning against being a much bigger threat than they were before he retired. Everyone really has grown a lot in skill and that's why I love this game so much. Even great players years ago, who were insane are even more insane now. You don't see that almost anywhere else
I’m not saying this to meme, but I’m blown away that mango used precedent in a sentence properly and didn’t even lose a beat. He’s just grown up a lot hahaha, good vid, GOAT quality discussion.
He did not use it properly, unfortunately. He should have used "weight".
31:07 most anticlimactic combo of all time ROFL
6:15 wow two years later and look what happened
Armada has such an ego he can't understand that people might not like him, so in his stupid narrative, it's mango's fault.
That was so stupid and people are backing him up. 6 years later he still is leeching off of the smash community. You know why? Without his melee personality he is no one. No one watches his videos
been waiting for this oof
Editor: “He just stopped playing at a time” x100
Armada is like jordan if he retired for real after his first threepeat Cus of lack of motivation. Would everyone still think he’s the goat 🤔
Jordan retired because the bulls let go of Phil Jackson
Armada already retired once and came back and had another dominant stretch it was just early melee
@@kevincemeno8128 he's talking about his first retirement. Most of the team came back the next year. Made it to ECSF without him.
@@kennythekid130 He wasnt dominant when he first retired, he was very good, but not dominant
The general opinion at the time was that MJ was the GOAT after his 1st 3peat. You can look up analysts and even players, including some retired (not the Wilts or 60s era guys tho) saying he was too like Magic, Zeke, Dumars etc.
I feel like the real reason mango is THIS angry is because Armada regularly beat the shit out of him in tournament and he was supposed to be this RIVAL of Armadas who would meet him on equal footing but ever since 2015 it's just been Armada DESTROYING Mango.
Not saying the meta hasn't changed, but boy mango is heated and it's gotta be coming from SOMEwhere ya know?
Sooo true. All that time to actually pose a threat to Armada and nothing. Now you want to claim that Armada should have NO say on his own status? Geeeeet outttta herrrrree
One of these days amsa is going to take a major, and then we can DEFINITELY say the meta has in fact changed.
aged well
@@dilbert7120 I know! I missed his win at big house though!
@@jaytahoehe won a major again
@@okayperson3041 I saw! I made a video on this and I was right, this was not a fluke, he is going to be a consistent top 3 finisher and champion in one of melee’s most competitive eras!
Mango is blind to the massive effect his charisma has on the whole situation. He's super entertaining as a player and as a person, you really can't help but go for him. People want somebody like him to be on the top step of the game. But Armada really does have insane numbers. Every sport has a hall of fame, every athlete wants to go out on top, because legacy matters to them as much as anything else. Armada did that and his legacy really is incredible. Don't blame him for backing himself relentlessly; he dedicated his life to the game and what he gets in return is people who just prefer mango as a person and a player trying to retell history. Mango doesn't have to worry about these things because not only is he super sick, but he has the love of the people in a way Armada never had and never will have.
Armada may be still currently the GOAT but you know that as time goes on without Armada playing, he will only fall off. If everyone had a quantitative score of melee points, as time goes on, people who play will increase their points and people who don't will stagnate. its only a matter of time until we realize Armada's feat was impressive but is not indicative of an all time Champion. Being dominate for a few years does not mean they are dominant in the summation of years which is what the GOAT status symbolizes.
Great video, also at 00:01 Mango and Magi are the exact percent and dashing away at the same time
It's true. Armada's stats are crazy, yeah, but eventually, he's no longer going to be considered the GOAT, and that shouldn't be a controversial statement. That's how metas' develop. NOT the goat, BUT A goat. That's a huge difference.
I think the problem is we are misusing the word goat.
GOAT stands for greatest of all time. There is only 1 GOAT at a time in the context of a sport as having multiple would go against the "greatest" part
I like using the terms GOAT and BOAT to describe the greatest of all time and then the best at the highest/newest version of the meta.
@@citrusblast4372 that’s true but the GOAT can change. Give him a year or two at number 1 and 2 and Mang0 will become the GOAT.
G.O.A.C.T.= greatest of a certain time
mango on point about Armada engaging with randos being wack asf. Like, tweet your stats and let that do the talking. Dropping twitlongers on randos is wack as hell
*Back in 2009*
- Mang0 was ready to become a wrestler, until he saw a post from Armada from smashboards, so it make Mang0 kept playing the game to challenge Armada at Genesis
*Current 2020*
- Mang0 calling out Armada to comeback from retirement, to keep playing Melee
O
A wrestler.... serious? what do you mean?
@@BlinJe Yah , on one of his streams , Mang0 said that since Melee was dying , he was gonna be a wrestler , and he was hitting up the Gym. Then Armada start talking things like EU > NA , so Mang0 stop going to the gym , start playing more Melee , and ended up going to McDonalds more often,
@@henryreturns1397 ahahah. oh like a pro wrestler? i thought you meant amateur /real wrasslin'
like wwe wrestling or actual wrestling
Coming here after Summit 12 really puts into perspective how different the eras are. Even the “sloppy” sets look cleaner than stuff from 2016. Everyone’s just so damn good now. Will people look back on Armada like we do Ken?
Armada to me is the best player melee has seen so far, but eventually he wont be the GOAT. It is incredibly cringe that Armada is arguing on Twitter that he is the GOAT.
It would be cringe if he wasnt or was someone else
If floyd said he is the boxing goat is fine because he is, and still can be a top fighter
The problems comes when there is someone with more achievements or the skill is better
How many times do you need to come out of retirement and kick people ass to be considered the GOAT. I believe until someone can prove to have a record as consistent and clean as his then they can talk. Let me ask you this is Ali not considered the best boxer of all time because he had to retire eventually?
@@sujetonormal3399 Floyd isnt anywhere close to boxing GOAT if you actually know the history of it lmao
Mango is easily the wisest, smartest, and probably most importantly, the mentally toughest Melee player out there. That's why he's been at the top for so long. Anyone with Mango Mentality can succeed.
Where did people get such a weird idea of a GOAT? It’s literally just who is the best in their prime. Are you gonna try to tell me prime armada is gonna be styling or even gonna be beating today mang0 and zain???? No chance
It is legacy, prime, and accomplishments. This isn't a good argument exactly because there are more tools to be better at this game. That being said, Armada only had like 3 years as #1 which is really good, but Mang0 was #1 3 years as well and is going into 2021 as either #1 or #2. What about people like PPMD or Hax? Do they not get a chance to comeback and prove themselves as the goat just because of medical issues? Nah Armada is wrong here.
12:58 Mang0 literally explaining what a rotation is to netplay kids. Imagine never sitting in a 3 or 4 man rotation and knowing what it was like to wait for your turn.
I feel like these mango rant videos are only like 3 points looping. But I really enjoy them still
I think some people think of meta as TAS level optimized strategies, and other think of it like Mango as what it takes to win.
For the former, it probably hasn't changed all that much recently, but by Mangos definition it has changed drastically. Regardless of whether or not optimal "tech" has changed that much, players are getting closer to it and pros today are way better than they were 3 years ago.
The current meta utilizes pivots a lot more id say than the past 2 years, shield dropping and ledge dashes are more of a staple. Mango pillars on marth on fd are fairly new still idk and zain constantly pushing what u can do with marth. I'd say the meta is definitely not the same but idk what ppl want anymore lol
Mango’s reaction to armadas retirement: m.th-cam.com/video/Blh5wXhy_pk/w-d-xo.html
the thing is Mango used to do the same thing when he retired back in the day
armada's stat list is crazy, but to sit on the sidelines and pretend as though players like n0ne and moky with a little dedicated peach practice wouldnt clap him up is insane. Top 15 skill level now is like the top 6 five years ago
n0ne washed hbox and he's only been out of serious practice for a short time compared to 2 years rofl dudes been grinding hella hard. Zain would def bop him too
Not even 5 years ago, you could say 3 easily
Hard disagree, Armada with a couple months of practice (assuming his normal work ethic) would easily rise back up to top 10. And I’m one of the biased mango fans who turn off the stream when mango loses in tourney... but some of y’all just treat his opinions as the word of god.
Let’s not forget Fiction quit in 2014, and came back fully in 2018 where he very, very quickly rose back into the top echelon of the game, more or less the same rank where he left as. The meta has progressed and gotten more advanced in ways, but watching the raw gameplay there isn’t a 1 billion year gap between 2018 (where he was still on path to #1 of the year) and 2020.
@@AlphaHatsuseno they also don't mention that leffen quit melee for like 6 months, practiced for two weeks, and then placed third his first supermajor back. All they can say is that "Well hbox lost to so and so after a few months of not practicing seriously at all, that proves my point." Very heavy confirmation bias.
@@AlphaHatsuseno I think that Fiction is kind of an outlier. He always was practicing during this time, even though he didn't attend often, and he was really practicing 10x more than most people on his rise back to the top. I don't doubt that Armada could rise to Top 10 again, I think that he could Top 5 or even best, but his argument that 1) the meta hasn't changed since 2018 and 2) he still wouldn't be losing to nonTop6 members is just a fantasy. Mango agrees with this too, he has said that if Armada put in the work, he could definitely become good again, but just the fact that he has to put in work to beat the best players of today completely disproves his argument that nothing has changed. I would bet serious money that if Armada returned to competition now and returned to his 2018 skill, he would lose to at least a third of the current online league atm.
Armada is the new ken. Also mango will ALWAYS be the goat no question
At least Ken doesn't argue every time someone brings up his legacy
@@Jay-uh6wq also ken wasn’t Swedish so that’s an extra 10 points
This is such an interesting discussion because clearly both Mang0 and Armada have pride, but their pride lies in two totally different areas. Armada has pride in retiring on top, and Mang0 has pride in believing that shit doesn't exist
That last line is the most mang0 thing I’ve ever read. Down to every single last word lmao
Lmao mango talking about egos
"Everyone thinks we're smelly pedophiles and I've got to wake up to this bullshit?"
PFFFTHAHAHAHAHAHA
Here after the smash summit 11 to say Mang0 is completely wrong at 11:02
He is the goat
Yeah I think Mango nailed it right on the head when he said Armada says this to protect his ego, makes sense with other players like Druggedfox too
People wanna believe they can just jump right back into this game and be just as relatively good but people are obviously getting much much better and it won't happen that way
I don't actually understand the spacies meta at all, so I can't comment on anything about them but even a casual fan can look at Zain solo revolutionizing Marth and say "This is a point when Melee meta changed." Hbox and Wizzy also pushed their respective meta games, not as much as Zain imo but it's obvious.
It's getting pretty obvious that this has to be settled with a moneymatch
Nah armada would need to compete in a few tournies first. You don't just get to come out of retirement and go against a top 2 in the world. Otherwise people would john for armada when he loses. If this ignites armada to come out of retirement I'm here for it
I hope WiFi tournaments stick around after for those of us who are unable to travel/don’t have locals near us
26:53 “winners are probably gona be me or zain”
I wish Armada would come back because I miss seeing top level peach play. Such a good character.
I don’t think the top level is vastly different in terms of skill because the grind to optimize is so much slower when you’re up there, but clearly the pool of top level players is so much larger than it ever been.
Mango misses his bae so much
To be fair he said in 2 years these arguments won't matter and yet it's been 2 years and after armadas twitlonger all of this still matters to an extent
Mang0 Magi at Gen was an awesome set. Glad to see that they train together ^^
It’s so cool that we’re having the same conversations about melee that we have about basketball and football.
So bad ass this game has been around long enough to talk about different player legacy’s. Melee forever baby!
Your content is fucking badass man
Your legacy and longevity, along with winning Evolution 2 YEARS IN A ROW , makes you GOAT. Thats enough for me.
mang0 explaining his thoughts while playing is like when I'm reading a book or an article and when I'm finished with a line I accidentally read the start of the line I just read instead of the next one
talking and playing hard
he still right tho
mangos brain on loop lmao
Magi is playing amazing in this video
She did some stuffff
Holy shit, 31 min. of video? must be someone's birthday huh?
Tournament organizers should add a new rule saying that as long as Armada claims the metagame hasn't changed, he's automatically registered for all tournaments, and will lose in the first round by default if he doesn't play. See what that does to his legacy :)
I interpret "the meta hasn't changed" to mean that the things that changed while he was dominant haven't continued progressing. Armada's era was full of new tech becoming mainstream and necessary to compete - shield dropping, more crouch cancelling, frame data being used to optimize neutral and map punish flowcharts, even early slideoff. 20xx savestates exploded a bunch of new options onto the scene and there was a lot of new space to explore.
Since he retired what's changed is mostly execution and consistency, choosing the RIGHT options and not just the new unexpected ones, which is the natural next phase after a bunch of new tech becomes accessible.
So yeah the meta's changed, but not that much in the same way as it changed while he was paying attention.
Really just depends on what you define as the meta. I have to respectfully disagree with you
the meta can change without having to discover new tech lol
entire matchups can change without the application of new tech, you cant tell me that marth was the same before and after zain become really good. You also can't say falco-marth isn't lightyears ahead of what it was a year ago solely due to mango and zain.
@@Mannydude96 when the options you have to be prepared for change, the meta has changed, it's as simple as that.
@@octo_contra yeah I agree the meta has changed. Mangoat
mango went in on the retirement home lmaoo
Mentally there's a huge difference from playing in the comfort of your home compared to playing on a stage with hundreds of people watching. How many times have people heard about scrim gods across any esport. Stage play and playing at home arent the same. Jordan was the best among amazing basketball players due to the mental edge he had.
You know Mango is pissed when he keeps repeating himself. He wants to expand on the thought but can't get it out entirely. He doesn't have enough words to describe his feelings. Keep killin it mang
To be fair Armada didn't say the meta has not changed at all, just that progress is much slower as the meta gets more optimized. Also if we have to imagine how Armada would be doing if he competed today it doesn't make sense to imagine him from 2018, but we would have to imagine him staying in practice and motivated.
One of the points Mang0 was trying to make though is that if you aren't currently competing, then saying, "I would still be a top player today" is just taking away from everyone still playing that have actually gotten better since 2018 not just *could* be better if they played.
Yes it progresses slower in a sense, but gaining that very very very small bit of optimization is that much harder as it progresses, because there’s so little to gain. So even IF it progresses slower from an optimization point of view, ultimately those small differences also become very big differences because of how optimized it is. Conversely, it also means that it takes MUCH MUCH less time for you to lose it, and become out of practice and fall behind.
So in a way, if anything as the game optimizes the meta changes at the same pace in terms of difficulty to stay with it.
@@pizzapizza6322 Well first of all let's face it, would you bet any dear amount of money on Armada not still being a top player if he came back today? But more importantly, I don't know if Armada himself has said that, and if he did I doubt he said he would be the best or dominate as much as he used to. A lot of this argument going on just seems like based on things no one even said or exaggerated versions of comments.
Ken was smart by having the "king of smash" moniker stick. No one disputes that and it'll never change because of that. The term GOAT has so much more weight behind it, and for Armada to just expect it to be put upon himself and also for it to never change because he decided to leave while on top is his fault. GOAT status is to keep going and showing more results until you just can't. Win as much as you can while you can, take the L's along the way, and come back even better. That's why Mang0 is more for the argument imo. He had shitty years of melee but came back even better.
Only people you love can break your heart.
Say what you want but Mang0 is right - do or do not there is no "would have".
7:12 Yo Magi I see you
Is it just me or does watching MangO’s falco to Lofi put you in a trance. I can’t stop watching it. The gameplay is so fucking clean.
I totally agree when he says there's a lot more meelee to be played and learned. Meelee has been historically an isolated game that's been kept alive by a super hardcore community, and that the same community that created all the tools we have now to make it waay easier to new player to get to a good level that it was before
I think the whole argument abt the meta can be boiled down to if someone views the actual players as what dictates "the meta" or if the theoretical human-perfect player is what dictates what "the meta" is
Like, the theoretical best Fox is p much the same, the theoretical best Falco is around the same lvl, maybe the theoretical best Falcon has gotten a bit better but not enough to warrant a complete meta shift, tho that's talking all in theory. N0ne has gotten WAY better, same w Zain and IBDW, which ppl have to account for at the top level when planning how to tackle certain obstacles, which really is wht the meta is imo, tho I think tht both ways of thinking r right
14:25 "it's not my fault hbox sds with a character with 6 jumps" actually got me to laugh out loud
Instead of using the word GOAT (Greatest Of All Time ) we should use the word --- BOAT ( Best Of A Time ) instead.
Being a Supposed GOAT means your Win/Loss Ratio appears to be more appealing than all Win/Loss Ratios of all time periods. What exactly are you supposed to pay attention to?
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Top 3 placings ?
Most Wins ?
Most Major Event Wins ?
Least Losses Most Wins ?
Longest Win streak ?
Longest Major Event Win Streak ?
Longest top 3 Streak ?
Most Wins During Prime ?
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Say you won every single tournament for 1 whole year with 0 Losses and only got 1st place every time, would you be considered the Goat ? This is why I would consider a Singular Goat a False Accolade because what are you looking for exactly? Anyway, I am okay with calling people "One of the Greatest" or a "Hall of famer" but never dare call someone a Goat, Especially when TIME is involved in that dissection.
Actually scratch that, I would consider someone a "GOAT" Temporarily if they had such an outstanding Win rate or perhaps Dominating demonstration for a long enough time period but Never a Permanent "GOAT" unless the record was never matched decades later. It's just super finicky because when time is involved, it kind of erases old Goat statuses and puts them into hall of fame status but whatever...
just my own thought out opinion I guess that kind of Contradicts itself lol