Which is better: Games Workshop or One Page Rules? Part 7
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- In this final video in the series we'll look at rulesets and complexity between Games Workshop and One Page Rules.
If you haven't already, check out the other videos in the series.
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Music: "Covert Affair" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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#gamesworkshop #onepagerules #tabletopgaming - เกม
A few weeks ago, I used OPR Age of Fantasy to introduce a scarily bright nine year old and her older brother to fantasy wargaming.
They shared one side - a thousand points each, dwarfs and human Empire.
I had 1,500 points of Mummified Undead.
They beat me quite handily, holding three of the four objectives, recovering after a sloppy start. (My mummy on chariot will attest that steam tanks are bad news. :P )
It is wicked easy to teach OPR to new players, even young ones.
Their mom bought a 3D printer for Christmas.
This has been in the works for weeks.
Sounds great! I hope you have many long hours of printing, painting, and playing ahead of you.
Ah heavens yeah! I am hoping to teach myself OPT and then within time teach my friends and family when the time is right. Hearing you talk about your 9yr was hopeful!
This has been such an awesome series. As a new warhammer convert from other realms of nerd-dom, this has been super useful and it made me a opr convert instead.
Agreed. Great series!
The slap fight vs the martial arts give and take was a great way to demonstrate the difference between IGo YouGo and alternating activations. I think I’ll adopt that as my go to example - well played
Yeah I laughed out loud. I've only played warhammer and the slap fight is way to real. Excited play my first opr game this week!
Thank you for dropping this, I love the series and thank you for all your content for us OPR addicts (Grimdark Future baby!!!)
Not convinced by the D10 or the call for greater differentiation. I prefer differences that really matter over fine granulation that mostly aims at representing fluff.
FANTASTIC SERIES, Chris! Thanks for all your work!
My group of friends has adopted OPR almost instantly. We all have lives, plenty of models and no patience for the bloat of GW’s rulesets. Building armies is also much more fun and less restrictive.
Back in the 80s, way before GW WHFB was popular in the USA, there were 2 war gaming systems whose names i have long since forgotten. One used 6-sided dice, and one used 8-sided dice. Other than the dice, the game mechanics between the 2 were very similar. What i recall is there was far more randomness in the 8-sided dice vs. the 6-sided dice war game rule sets. Both were tried by our gaming group who eventually went back to the 6-sided dice rule set until WHFB 3rd edition.
Brilliant, Yes
Love the shaper with the bow!
Cheers to OPR! What a breath of fresh air.
In defense of the learning stage being in the build instructions, I do know for Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game, (At least in the Mines of Moira set), they actually had that exact thing, and the book was called "Getting Started", it was probably either a mistake on their part for not naming it something like that, or most of the people looking at the starter booklet skipped over it and didn't read the title (Less likely but I've seen it happen a few times).
I love OPR, but I also think that the lack of a toughness characteristics is sometimes a problem. I think they should add rules that make some creatures more resistant (for instance by reducing the AP of incoming attacks) or stronger (by having higher AP). A bit more calculations but no extra rolls
There are some pieces of war gear (shields) that reduce AP, but it's pretty rare. That and regen. There are options but I agree that there aren't too many. Some big guys don't play as "big" as you feel they should.
As a comparison of stats versus special rules, Reaper Miniatures mech game CAV shows both extremes.
The first edition of the game was almost completely numerical. All weapon and defense systems were distilled down to just the final numbers (and lots of them). So a new player had to learn where to look to get the number they need, but once they got that very little further knowledge was needed.
The third edition of the game went full 180, with each mech sheet having over a dozen keywords (not exaggerating, and in many cases way more), some of which were only important to unit construction and had no in-game effect. But a new player wouldn't know this and have to look up every keyword. Not many stats to look at, but you had to learn several pages of keywords.
I just recently got into OPR and I like them. It's just me and my son who want a quick game and OPR is way better for army building and ease of playing. I did like what Warhammer did with the combat patrol (the free rules) and how they balance them better now too.
Love your explanation of 3 stages of play 👍 ❤
Thanks. I thought a lot about that when I was working at a GW store and learned how they "demo" games.
Last year my Playgroup and I went to a Convention to promote OPR. We made over 50 Games for different Players (some Veterans, some Beginners and some Families.). After the First Round every Table didn't need our Help for the most time. They played the rest of their games by themselves.
We build Lists with Models they could choose from. The Tabels (we hade 4: AoF:S, GD:FF, an GD:FF Lego and Szenario CoopTabel) were set up and the Players started with Objectiv-Setup.
It was a lot of fun and everyone who went from the Tabel knows the Core rules.
Which convention? That sounds like a pretty big splash you made. I'm hoping on running a demo table at the Richmond Open.
I JUST bought Necromunda: Hive Wars. I basically created my game play and have just seen One Page Rules in this video. My game is PRETTY close to OPR 😂. But the games we have played are FAST and FUN. Add the campaign story I'm using, my kids and friends Friggin LOVE it. 20-45 Minute game makes it so when you lose a character, you don't feel so bad, because that character is only gone for a few minutes.
I'm gonna go look at O.P.G. and see how that plays, because just READING the Necromunda Guide, is painful
Complexity does not have anyting to do with the amount of rules. For example, chess has very simple rules- but there are a lot of decisions in the game, that gives the game a complexity. And there are some tabletop games that are ,more complex than 40k. 40k achives a kind of complexity just by adding stuff. Some players spend more time in listbuilding than in the actual game.
Other games achive a complexity with the decisions in the game on the table.
Is a D10 better than a D6? I don´t think so. It is the question what you want to achive. I have played Dust 1947, that you play with basicly a D3. The difference is the amount of dice you roll- and yes, some rerolls, but since everything of 5+ is a success, this is easy and fast done.
To a degree, yes, especially when you also consider age and experience. Teaching a child to play chess is complex because every pieces has different rules for movement and capture, but that's it, it's front loaded. From there the complexity is reading your opponent, kind of like poker. So I wouldn't say it has "nothing" to do - look at a card game like Go Fish, but I agree that it can be a spectrum.
d12s are absolutely the best dice!
I Like your series! A little correction: OPR has 5 not 4 usable Levels of differenciating. There are Quality 6+ Units, these only succed on the always succeding 6. so you have 5 different Levels. (2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+)
Cool. Thanks for the correction.
D12's are also a better than D10's because of how fractions work.
A D12 can be a; D2, D3, D4, D6 and a D12.
D10's are just D2's D5's, and D10's. Same amount of "flexibility" as a D6.
I vastly prefer OPR to any Warhammer, but there is one glaring problem I have. Where do I play it? I live in a large city, with lots of game shops, and tiny apartments. On any given day I can get my Warhammer 40k or Sigmar fix since there's always a Warhammer night at one of the stores. But OPR? Most shops won't touch it with a 10 foot pole. And why would they? It's a 3d printed game without physical rules. Even the owners that prefer OPR rules just won't support it in their store because there is no money in it for them. Heck there's negative money if a game night converts a player to OPR from Warhammer. You might get a game on an open game night, but you'll never get a tournament scene going.
And unless you are actively recruiting and teaching, it's really hard to find new players to play against. Playing the same couple of people is fun, but you don't get a lot of variety.
Maybe this is just a problem in my area. Maybe I'm spoiled for choice for Warhammer. But it is a bit rough. I can find a Song of Ice and Fire, Star Wars, or Marvel Crisis Protocol group, but I genuinely don't know how to get an OPR group going.
My FLGS has 3d printers and even serves Beer.
@@SCHMALLZZZ the dream!
I hear you on that, though many of the guys I play OPR with still buy 40k models to use, since they armies they ported over 40k armies into OPR. Maybe that angle could help make it more palatable to the FLGS.
i played Kings of War for years after Warhammer died. And now with the old world i was stunned about how many dice i have to roll just for one combat.
Roll to charge
Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Roll to save up to 3x (armour, ward, regenration)
Then the same for your opponent+
Roll leadership
Roll pursuit (if the enemy flees)
Thats up to 13 dice rolls just to decide one single engagement.
In Kings of War there is no strike back. In fact the only player touching dice in your turn is you.
The same combat in Kings of War goes
Roll to hit
Roll to defend
Roll Nerve (moral)
And thats it.
I've played KoW and Fantasy. I know what you mean. The look of Fantasy is what I remember, but it wasn't so cumbersome, or maybe I'm just impatient now that I'm older.
I wish there was a middle ground product between the insane bloat of GW and blandness of OPR, something where gameplay was simple but units still had interesting abilities.
I'm starting to add in more of the "additional rules" to see if that can improve things. There are 5-6 additional actions, random event, heck they even have rules for command points.
Now I wanna try Ravage Star. I really liked there minis and I like the inclusion of a d10.
But it's months out *le sigh*
Agree with d12 - started working on d12 system with 1 roll before ravaged star came out and have seen some useful stuff from Matt 😊
I'm really eager to try out Ravaged Star, though that will be a while...
When I tried to develop a system using D10 I had the feeling it is more difficult and time intensive to pick the succeeding dice. The sides of D6 are very easy and quick to read, because they have symmetrical shapes with each their individual silhouette.
So yeah, D10 would be great for a more granular game, but we need to up their readability
I agree. That's why I prefer the D12. It's more readable, isn't as easily bumped or accidently moved, and builds on the D6 perfectly.
We actually use a Power Level system with our OPR...and it works great.
Wanna know why? Cause there is NO best weapon. Each weapon is useful for one thing and just that one thing.
A 3AP weapon is wasted against def 5-6 models.... Blast weapons are worthless against low count units. Deadly is wasted on anything without tough.
So there isn't a single "best weapon" so not paying for upgrades doesn't hurt at all.
@Good.Nuff.Gaming When you touched on dice differences, have you see trench Crusades 2d6 dice pool system? What are your thought's on it?
I hadn't heard about it until now. I looked it up and it seems similar to the way some RPGs work, or the way that magic/psychic works in older editions of 40k. I could work in a skirmish game, but how would you roll for a unit of 10 models, unless it's like KoW where the unit has a set stat that isn't affected by casualties.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Good point. I'm used to GDFF, I didn't think about larger units
Home rule. get a strengh and toughness value for the minis. if str is higher as the toughness, roll 2d6 and use the better result. and vice versa. str lower than toughness, roll 2d6 and use the lower score. - use 2 colors dice, it is one roll. but you must roll all attacks solo. maybe it is it worth. 😊
..or do this by instinct. big baddy, power armor, robot monster…. advantage. little gobbo with spear… disadvantage. works with narrative games.
or… maybe this is not a good idea. to rpg. dont work for massive troops and regiments. 😢
Did you get the idea from BloodBowl? That's how they use strength to affect attack rolls.
I wish there were a middle of the road option between 40k and OPR. Of the two, I prefer OPR. But going to a d10 system, putting the to-wound roll back in and eliminating rerolls entirely would accomplish a lot. Also never rolling more than one attack dice per rank and file model would be good.
After playing a lot of OPR for the channel I do see some ways that I wish it was a bit more like you say. That's an interesting idea to put back wound but eliminate all rerolls. It would have 3 per attack, 4 if you have regen.
Howdy Good Enough Gaming,
Thank you for taking the time to do a video comparing and contrasting OPR and WH40k
You mentioned something about Ravage Star in the video as well as how to use a 12 sided dice as a preferred option.
Q: Would you be willing to share with me more about your opinion about Ravage Stars system and how to use 12 sided dice?
REASON: I have been studying both Wargaming franchises a bit and came to the same conclusion with OPR & WH40k. I still prefer 40k, and have been looking into how to supplement toughness in exchange for wound counters but have yet to hear about using 12 sided die or how ravage Star is a best of both worlds.
Humbly
- EnTaro
Howdy to you too. I haven't played a game of Ravaged Star yet - they are still formulating the rules, but MiniWarGaming has put together a bunch of video where they are test-playing games with a D12 system, and talking about where it works and doesn't.
The rerelease of 40k Apocalypse uses D12, and that's where I first say how easy it would be to adapt any D6 game to a D12. Just double every stat for every unit, then go back and determine if the stat should be adjust +/-1 to better fit the fluff and game balance. I can't remember if I put this in the video, but space marines and guard veterans both hit on 3s, but that doesn't make sense. In a D12 system, both would jump to hitting on 6s, and you could adjust the marines down to 5s, leave the veterans at 6s, and then regular guardsmen hit on 7 or 8. It gives a better spread that recognizes the better quality of each unit over the other, and overall still carries a reasonable hit/miss chance. Then you could put marine veteran squads at 4s, characters at 3s, and save the 2+ hit on D12 for named legends like Dante, Draigo, Lilith, etc. - and you'd STILL have that tiny chance for a miss.
I mean, I'm sold on it, but it would be a paradigm shift that would cost GW millions to reprint cards, recast dice, etc., so it's not going to happen, which is why I'm very eager to see how Ravaged Star is going to use it.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming , thank you for sharing your insight and wisdom into that type of system. Seems legit 👍🏾. I’ll check out MWG and keep an eye on their implement as well. 🫡🫡🫡
While I think the base game is the same across the OPR setup (ie quality, shooting etc) the wound/morale effects change significantly in Skirmish/Firefight and then of course ranks/files/movement etc all change in Regiments (still my favorite but I love old school whfb).
The one thing I dislike, is the casters all feel kind of the same across the game. Of course the faction specific rules don't really get to the levels of GW games so everything kind of has that "sameness" feeling to a degree. With that said, my group plays OPR exclusively now. We meet twice a month at a FLGS to play. Most of the minis across the players are a mix of full printed armies or GW/various other manufacturers stuff. The FLGS is supportive but of course we support them as well by buying our supplies, board games etc from there too.
I agree. casting and even spells are pretty uniform. I could see making some armies have better casters for higher cost, or making the spells a bit more unique to each army instead of the same spells but with different names.
😎👍
When I see such a question I see something like "what is better: Monopoly or Simplified Monopoly?". And my answer is "why would you play either in a world where you have modern board games like Brass, Agricola, Food Chain Magnate, Great Western Trail and dozens of other state-of-the-art, sleek designs?".
Quite simply, because my partner will play 40k with me, but not brass.
@@reubenforever1 Oh, Brass was just as a part of the metaphore, paired with Monopoly, not a replacement for a wargame, which is obviously a different type of game.
@@robertchmielecki2580 I was going for a metaphor too, but with a real example. Simply I play most games based on what others find fun or are willing to play.
My one great indulgence is twilight Imperium which I'm very lucky to have friends and family that love playing. If you have not tried it I highly recommend.
Go for OPR! But I wish if they update vanilla Havoc Brothers, so they will be less looking like a poor army
I think the upcoming narrative campaign shows they are starting to go back through armies and give them more unique personality.
Another danger, after printing for a while, you might start playing with modeling in Blender.
Tried opr once, never going back to warhammer
TBH I'm pretty sick of vanilla alternating activations, everybody and their dog (outside GW) has been doing it for the past 15 years.
The only mix-up I've really seen is Bolt Action. What do you think about that concept?
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming It's pretty nice, gives some uncertainty and neatly solves the classic issue of AA of the larger force having unit left over at the end. I'm also a fan of push your luck systems with a test to activate additional units in a row (This is Not a Test, A Song of Blades and Heroes...), integrated turns (Titanicus, Legions Imperialis) or just IGOUGO with a solid reaction system (Infinity!)
4:49 I think NO I know that Beavis would have done a far better job than GW there or at least made it more entertaining.
I think D12 would allow all the nuance you need. Instead of a 6 being a successa ll the time. the 12 is, and then 11 and 10 cna become lightly less good but still better than normal
Like 12 is a hit, or 2 hits
11 is a knockback or give a -1 to their move, or any other thing
I agree. I'm a fan of D12. It easily builds on the D6, and is a better looking shape that D10
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming d12 is a platonic solid. D10 is not. Greeks knew what was up.