Nice demo Michael, it does sound good but I’d like to know what the difference is between this and a powered FRFR like the Friedman ASM 12. Would be awesome if you could do a shootout between them. I’m interested in something like this for my Fractal. Cheers
I could see this being more useful if you have a preferred power amp, like a tube power amp compared to the solid state power amp in the ASM 12 or most powered speakers
Great work, Michael. Thank you. How would you compare the accuracy to your barefoot monitors (or any studio monitor)? Also, how would you rate the speakers performance at bedroom levels compared to gig-like db levels?
It would've been nice if you'd used the same profile but with different IRs to see how the speakers 'flavour' is imparted by the full range speaker. I can hear the V30, but what about changing to a Greenback
Oh man. You're right! I didn't write it down. I would guess it was one of the Demeter profiles. It's pretty juicy, and would be something I would choose for Tele work.
In your opinion, would having 2 of these be overkill? I have a 2x12 cab and instead of buying a new Frfr cab, it would be most cost effective to load the cab up with two of these. Also, does the Kemper power amp have attenuation?
Hi Michael. I just received the Friedman IR-J. I don't currently own any tube amps, just a couple of Crown Xti4002's laying around. It seems just about everything is now QC, Fractal Audio, etc is cabinet modeling. Would building 4x12 cabinets with F12-X200's be decent?
Hi! I think that can work. It might be cheaper to find a nice unpowered PA speaker. I recently heard Dweezil Zappa’s rig and he ran modelers through PA speakers. It sounded great!
@@BigHairyGuitars I have a pair of Yamaha DZR-315's. They just don't look as cool as as 4x12 cabinets. I'm going to try 4x12 closed, 2 2x12 and 4 1x12 (internally divided) .Not interested in the deep 100hz below humps that I saw on Jim Lille (spelling) video testing boxes. Celestion recommends porting but....hey thanks for the response.
Just ordered one of these cabinets with this speaker. Going to use my ax8 with a seymour duncan powerstage. Interesting fact the company I'm getting it from are based in my home town of Ipswich which Celestion speakers are manufactured nearby
@@jeeeeev nah, I kind of put it on the back burner. I finally came around with using my axe 3 with studio monitors, or going through real guitar speakers. I bought back a real tube amp for when I just want that. I rarely play it, but nothing beats the real deal when you crave that. I did put the F12 into a Deuce Deluxe power cab. I love the speaker. No doubt about it. I might put 4 into my 4x12 one day honestly lol
I just tried it in my DIY 1x12 Mesa-Slant spec cab. First impression: works fine when played in the room. No band use yet, but even acoustics sound fine. I´m excited to use it in a rehersal.
Let it get some time to break in, and check your hi-cuts. Everything, as in everything is audible all of a sudden. So my acoustic sounds are as clear as in my studio monitors, and that doesn't sounds natural in the band, so I'm dialing in my acoustic sounds as we speak. FYI I run a Helix floor with a JTV-69 Variax through Katana112 100w. mk. 1 combos. It's a lethal combination and has the power to stop the world!!! My first gig with this setup I was running the combos at 0,5 watt!! and it was fine ;-) All the detailed work you do on your effects, pays of big time with this speaker.
@@BigHairyGuitars it is a cabinet design Celestion released as open source that is what they personally think is the best design for that speaker. EV used to do it quite a lot in the past. I love the video by the way.
Oh wow! That’s interesting. Like the old GE manual on how to use their tubes. This cab was arranged by Celestion, so I’m guessing they thought it was at least ballpark good. I like your cabs BTw! Cool stuff
Hi Michael, great video! Do you still have the speaker? If so, have you ever tested it with just with a filter + eq (as described by Carter Cooper and others, this supposedly gives you more of an "amp in the room" feel) instead of an IR? Would be curious to see how that works.
@@BigHairyGuitars Will it not change the coloring of the sound if I use an exterior cab ? Because the purpose of the F12-X200 is to be neutral for modeling amps I confess that I don't know, as it's expensive I wonder before buying
I tried the F12-X200 on the Mustang GTX. Just didn't seem to work as good as original. For Sale if you are interested. In fact I tried several speakers, none worked as well. Kudos to Fender for tuning a speaker PERFECT for this amp. There just doesn't seem to be a better replacement. Save your time and money. You can try hooking up to the line outs if you want more control and stereo. Sometimes I do using keyboard / drum amps - any MUSIC INSTRUMENT amp with neutral sound.
@@BigHairyGuitars . Well, you mic'd the cabinet, that's how you do a demo of a FRFR on YT. :) Btw, Christophe Kemper refuses to say FRFR, he just says FR.
@@brucedickinson8993 I tried the F12-X200 on the Mustang. Just didn't seem to work as original. For Sale if you are interested. In fact I tried several speakers, none worked as well. Kudos to Fender for tuning a speaker PERFECT for this amp. There just doesn't seem to be a better replacement. Save your time and money. You can try hooking up to the line outs if you want more control and stereo. Sometimes I do using keyboard / drum amps - any MUSIC INSTRUMENT amp with neutral sound.
No, the power amp is needed. There are FrFR speaker with built in power, like made by Atomic. But without power, it would be like plugging your guitar directly into the speaker without an amp
This speaker actually appeals to me for a couple of reasons. Reason #1: These days I almost exclusively rely on either a 100% DSP signal path with IRs FOH, or some type of fully analog front end pedalboard and preamp with back end DSP and IR's FOH. Reason #2: My tattered 48 year old battered ears holes tend to prefer a legit cab pushing air on stage than an IEM system. Reason #3: I happen to have an old Peavey 1x12 cab in storage with a broken speaker. Ha! Question... Which would you suggest? An open back or closed back cab for this speaker? Thanks in advance dude! Love your content! Cheers!
Closed back for consistency in different rooms/environments… but you could always make a 3 piece back like what Zilla cabs make to have both an open and closed back when you remove one of the 3 panels. Also do this with 2 cabs and space them apart from each other like your studio monitors would be for stereo effects and run through a tube power amp/stage box (like the fryette in the video or a synergy 5050) for best results
Michael, great video! Have you tried to compare a SS power amp, like Orange Pedal Baby Class A/B, to the tube Class A/B inside the Power Station? I see many people recommending SS power amps for Kemper and Helix, but I’ve never seen before someone using the Power Station or other tube Class A/B power amp. Well done. Cheers, Andre
Denis R hi. Not at all similar. The F12 is SO hi-if and transparent that without a cab sim or IR it sounds bad. The EV is flat compared to a v30, but not transparent enough to be a FRFR. And it’s SO heavy!
Just by curiosity, would be a good idea to use this speaker with mooer ge200 or any other pedalboard that handle Impulse Response? What would be the final result, for example, when using a marshall 1950A/B IR and this speaker, when comparing to real 1960 a/b?
@@BigHairyGuitars , thanks a lot for your patience and reply. Comparing to a real 1x12 ( like greenback or creamback 75) and 1x12 equipped with a 1x12 f12-x200 using a good captured IR for these speakers, would they sound the same or at least pretty close? Best Regards
@@brunocantelli13 in tonality, sorta yes. In reality, a 'real' speaker has more immediate presence to it. BUT, the Kone can have a cool 4x12 response and tonality, whereas a real 1x12 sounds like THAT 1x12 always.
@@BigHairyGuitars A thumbs up for this video Michael, would be great to see you do an update video about this frfr speaker. Maybe with other power amps,Helix,on stage? Thanks for making these video’s.
I know I'm late to the party, well the party is already over lol, but it would be cool to use an SM-57 and get a sine wave graph of the speaker and compare it to either a real vintage 30 with the IR turned off or just the use the Celestion published sine wave data and see how close it comes.
I find it funny how people talk about building FRFR cabs or they have to use EVM12L's because they don't want the speakers coloring their tones but when they do that they complain that it sounds sterile and flat once they have a flat response. I agree, once you're running a poweramp then you're going to need a preamp of some kind to give it a little extra something.
true, finding the sweet spot took me a while (own two of them), a good planned amplification setup is the key to acquire a quality modeling amp sound. And I have to tell you, they are doing their homework and are getting closer every time. Time will tell folks.
Yeah, it's not something that I would normally direct mic, but there really isn't any other way to show you what it sounds like. So, I was left with either... just talking about the speaker, or a somewhat compromised representation of the speaker. If I was using it live, I'd run direct out of my Kemper, and monitor with the F12 directly, not mic'd up.
Yes, demoing the product was the point of the video and short of some unknown alchemy I'm not sure how else you would convey the sound. Thanks Michael...I've been interested in this speaker for awhile and your demos are always excellent and informative.
Love your stuff, but please, the Kemper is not a modeler. No one wrote code to re-create the tone of tube amps. It's IR technology, that, IMHO, works extremely well capturing one chosen sound of an amp. BTW, all the IRs capturing (not modeling) mic / cabs no one seems have to have a probem distinguishing one technology from the other. Peace & out! :-)
Not a fan of kemper or any modeling amp, as expensive as they are, why not just buy the real thing the amp it's trying to emulate.Friend of mine has a kemper and at low volumes it wasn't too bad little practice amp, but the more you cranked it the worse it got and the solid state showed up with bright tinty fizz with no warm lows.
I got one of these speakers today and it sounds GREAT with the Kemper and even a Helix.
Does it cut like normal guitar speakers trough a band? (drum and bass)
still good?
@@brucedickinson8993 I went back to tube amps!
Michael is the MVP GOAT. Loads of pristine content. Wow. Every. Time. Stay well good friend! 👋😎👍
Great demo on a product I've been interested in for awhile...thanks!
Nice demo Michael, it does sound good but I’d like to know what the difference is between this and a powered FRFR like the Friedman ASM 12. Would be awesome if you could do a shootout between them. I’m interested in something like this for my Fractal.
Cheers
I could see this being more useful if you have a preferred power amp, like a tube power amp compared to the solid state power amp in the ASM 12 or most powered speakers
Great work, Michael. Thank you. How would you compare the accuracy to your barefoot monitors (or any studio monitor)? Also, how would you rate the speakers performance at bedroom levels compared to gig-like db levels?
It would've been nice if you'd used the same profile but with different IRs to see how the speakers 'flavour' is imparted by the full range speaker. I can hear the V30, but what about changing to a Greenback
wow micheal that first profile with the tele sounds awesome. can you recall which one it was?
Oh man. You're right! I didn't write it down. I would guess it was one of the Demeter profiles. It's pretty juicy, and would be something I would choose for Tele work.
In your opinion, would having 2 of these be overkill? I have a 2x12 cab and instead of buying a new Frfr cab, it would be most cost effective to load the cab up with two of these. Also, does the Kemper power amp have attenuation?
I was wondering the same...
Great demo, Thanks a lot.
Hi Michael. I just received the Friedman IR-J. I don't currently own any tube amps, just a couple of Crown Xti4002's laying around. It seems just about everything is now QC, Fractal Audio, etc is cabinet modeling. Would building 4x12 cabinets with F12-X200's be decent?
Hi! I think that can work. It might be cheaper to find a nice unpowered PA speaker. I recently heard Dweezil Zappa’s rig and he ran modelers through PA speakers. It sounded great!
@@BigHairyGuitars I have a pair of Yamaha DZR-315's. They just don't look as cool as as 4x12 cabinets. I'm going to try 4x12 closed, 2 2x12 and 4 1x12 (internally divided) .Not interested in the deep 100hz below humps that I saw on Jim Lille (spelling) video testing boxes. Celestion recommends porting but....hey thanks for the response.
Just ordered one of these cabinets with this speaker. Going to use my ax8 with a seymour duncan powerstage. Interesting fact the company I'm getting it from are based in my home town of Ipswich which Celestion speakers are manufactured nearby
Please tell me how this rig is working out. I’m considering assembling it myself.
@@justinTime077 have you?
@@jeeeeev nah, I kind of put it on the back burner. I finally came around with using my axe 3 with studio monitors, or going through real guitar speakers. I bought back a real tube amp for when I just want that. I rarely play it, but nothing beats the real deal when you crave that.
I did put the F12 into a Deuce Deluxe power cab. I love the speaker. No doubt about it. I might put 4 into my 4x12 one day honestly lol
@@justinTime077 basically this speaker is just like an frfr right?
I just tried it in my DIY 1x12 Mesa-Slant spec cab. First impression: works fine when played in the room. No band use yet, but even acoustics sound fine. I´m excited to use it in a rehersal.
How was it in rehearsal?
Let it get some time to break in, and check your hi-cuts. Everything, as in everything is audible all of a sudden. So my acoustic sounds are as clear as in my studio monitors, and that doesn't sounds natural in the band, so I'm dialing in my acoustic sounds as we speak. FYI I run a Helix floor with a JTV-69 Variax through Katana112 100w. mk. 1 combos. It's a lethal combination and has the power to stop the world!!! My first gig with this setup I was running the combos at 0,5 watt!! and it was fine ;-) All the detailed work you do on your effects, pays of big time with this speaker.
Hi Michel, have you tried the X200 is one of the Celestion standard design cabs?
No. I’m not really sure what that is? Please explain
@@BigHairyGuitars it is a cabinet design Celestion released as open source that is what they personally think is the best design for that speaker. EV used to do it quite a lot in the past. I love the video by the way.
Oh wow! That’s interesting. Like the old GE manual on how to use their tubes. This cab was arranged by Celestion, so I’m guessing they thought it was at least ballpark good.
I like your cabs BTw! Cool stuff
@@BigHairyGuitars yeah that is exactly it, I don't know why they didn't publicise it more. Anyway, great video. Paul.
@@ZillaCabs did you ever try this speaker with the open source design?
Great demo! Maybe a naive question: Are this kind of speakers good for playing an acoustic guitar with preamp?
Sorta. You're better off with an even flatter full range speaker, like a PA speaker. or dedicated acoustic guitar amp.
@@BigHairyGuitars thanks for your prompt reply
A powered Kemper or a separate power amp to power your kemper
Thanks Michael. I do have a cab that is not being used with a Kemper on the way. Will drop one of these speakers in it. Cheers!
I wonder how that will compare to the Kemper Kone. ....if they ever release it.
Great vid! Should the cab be an open back or closed back for this speaker?
Good job Michael😎👍
Hi Michael!
@@BigHairyGuitars hello sir - your work is INSANELY awesome - loved your Tone-talk appearance BTW :)
Hi Michael, great video! Do you still have the speaker? If so, have you ever tested it with just with a filter + eq (as described by Carter Cooper and others, this supposedly gives you more of an "amp in the room" feel) instead of an IR? Would be curious to see how that works.
Do you think it can sound better to replace the speaker of a Mustang GTX50/100 ?
I think you'd be better off adding a separate speaker cab if it has a cab out. Otherwise, I'd stick with what in the combo.
@@BigHairyGuitars Will it not change the coloring of the sound if I use an exterior cab ? Because the purpose of the F12-X200 is to be neutral for modeling amps
I confess that I don't know, as it's expensive I wonder before buying
I tried the F12-X200 on the Mustang GTX. Just didn't seem to work as good as original. For Sale if you are interested.
In fact I tried several speakers, none worked as well.
Kudos to Fender for tuning a speaker PERFECT for this amp. There just doesn't seem to be a better replacement. Save your time and money.
You can try hooking up to the line outs if you want more control and stereo. Sometimes I do using keyboard / drum amps - any MUSIC INSTRUMENT amp with neutral sound.
Demoing FRFR's over YT is really, REALLy hard but I think this has just set the standard going forward.
Thanks Leon! Yeah, it was a brain buster...how am I gonna do this. Ha!
@@BigHairyGuitars . Well, you mic'd the cabinet, that's how you do a demo of a FRFR on YT. :) Btw, Christophe Kemper refuses to say FRFR, he just says FR.
Would the F12-X200 be a good speaker upgrade for the Mustang GTX100 ?
What you decided?
@@brucedickinson8993 I tried the F12-X200 on the Mustang. Just didn't seem to work as original. For Sale if you are interested.
In fact I tried several speakers, none worked as well.
Kudos to Fender for tuning a speaker PERFECT for this amp. There just doesn't seem to be a better replacement. Save your time and money.
You can try hooking up to the line outs if you want more control and stereo. Sometimes I do using keyboard / drum amps - any MUSIC INSTRUMENT amp with neutral sound.
Perfect review Michael, just what I needed to see, have just ordered two of these a few days ago for cab 🤘
Why did you need a power-amp? Isn’t the point of an FRFR speaker just to plug modeller direct?
No, the power amp is needed. There are FrFR speaker with built in power, like made by Atomic. But without power, it would be like plugging your guitar directly into the speaker without an amp
Love to try this on my Marshall Code 100w
Ok so this is something I have always wondered about. Can I use my Synergy SYN 5050 to power two full range cabs? Maybe without horns?🤔
hi, can you please tell me uf it's a good idea to run a normal amp trough an frfr speaker?
Don't do that. It would sound really bad probably
@@BigHairyGuitars i was just curious ..thanks
This speaker actually appeals to me for a couple of reasons.
Reason #1: These days I almost exclusively rely on either a 100% DSP signal path with IRs FOH, or some type of fully analog front end pedalboard and preamp with back end DSP and IR's FOH.
Reason #2: My tattered 48 year old battered ears holes tend to prefer a legit cab pushing air on stage than an IEM system.
Reason #3: I happen to have an old Peavey 1x12 cab in storage with a broken speaker. Ha!
Question...
Which would you suggest?
An open back or closed back cab for this speaker?
Thanks in advance dude!
Love your content!
Cheers!
Closed back for consistency in different rooms/environments… but you could always make a 3 piece back like what Zilla cabs make to have both an open and closed back when you remove one of the 3 panels. Also do this with 2 cabs and space them apart from each other like your studio monitors would be for stereo effects and run through a tube power amp/stage box (like the fryette in the video or a synergy 5050) for best results
@@JROCK1324 thanks for the feedback. I’ll definitely look into that. Cheers!
Does it sustain like a guitar speaker or does it have no sustain like a FR speaker?
Recorded with back panel back on? Did you try it with back open?
Depending on the price, it might be the best bang for the buck. Having a wood cab makes a significant difference in the sounds.
Help me understand like I am five. Basically, this cabinet speaker is just like an FRFR like the headrush?
But responding more like a traditional guitar speaker, still keeping the FRFR flat eq.
Michael, great video! Have you tried to compare a SS power amp, like Orange Pedal Baby Class A/B, to the tube Class A/B inside the Power Station? I see many people recommending SS power amps for Kemper and Helix, but I’ve never seen before someone using the Power Station or other tube Class A/B power amp. Well done. Cheers, Andre
So how does it sonically compare the the EVM12L speaker? A lighter version of that speaker would be awesome.
Denis R hi. Not at all similar. The F12 is SO hi-if and transparent that without a cab sim or IR it sounds bad. The EV is flat compared to a v30, but not transparent enough to be a FRFR. And it’s SO heavy!
Nice review, thanks
Where can you get one of these cabs? I looked them up and only found them available to purchase overseas.
It is possible that they would have to be imported. It came to me already loaded with the speaker from Celestion.
Anyone know the difference between the Montage 1x12 with F12-X200 vs the Kemper Kab with Kone speaker? besides double the price.
Just by curiosity, would be a good idea to use this speaker with mooer ge200 or any other pedalboard that handle Impulse Response? What would be the final result, for example, when using a marshall 1950A/B IR and this speaker, when comparing to real 1960 a/b?
I think it'll work fine with anything that completely simulates the entire chain, all the way to speaker emulation.
Also, there isn't a 1x12 in the world that will compare well to a real 4x12.
@@BigHairyGuitars , thanks a lot for your patience and reply. Comparing to a real 1x12 ( like greenback or creamback 75) and 1x12 equipped with a 1x12 f12-x200 using a good captured IR for these speakers, would they sound the same or at least pretty close? Best Regards
@@brunocantelli13 in tonality, sorta yes. In reality, a 'real' speaker has more immediate presence to it. BUT, the Kone can have a cool 4x12 response and tonality, whereas a real 1x12 sounds like THAT 1x12 always.
@@BigHairyGuitars A thumbs up for this video Michael, would be great to see you do an update video about this frfr speaker. Maybe with other power amps,Helix,on stage? Thanks for making these video’s.
I know I'm late to the party, well the party is already over lol, but it would be cool to use an SM-57 and get a sine wave graph of the speaker and compare it to either a real vintage 30 with the IR turned off or just the use the Celestion published sine wave data and see how close it comes.
Sounds good. Out curiosity do you still have the Tube Works Mosvalve poweramp?
no. i sold that one. I wasn't using it.
Wow. That does sound good Michael. Ahhh...more stuff to buy....
It is a cool accessory for digital amp dudes!
Is there anyone who has done a full review on these speakers yet? Like by using all classes of amplifiers. Thanks
Joe M you mean like class A, class AB, class D, etc?
Yes that's correct. I'm wondering if these react any more realistically with class a/b ,b , and d. All I know is they are like two speakers in one.
Could theese speakers handle bass? Sinche it goes down only to 60Hz......
Good question!
Michael what model is that cabinet?
I believe it's a MONTAGE INTRO Series 1 x12
@@BigHairyGuitars From England I think. Okay. Thank you Michael!
I find it funny how people talk about building FRFR cabs or they have to use EVM12L's because they don't want the speakers coloring their tones but when they do that they complain that it sounds sterile and flat once they have a flat response.
I agree, once you're running a poweramp then you're going to need a preamp of some kind to give it a little extra something.
true, finding the sweet spot took me a while (own two of them), a good planned amplification setup is the key to acquire a quality modeling amp sound. And I have to tell you, they are doing their homework and are getting closer every time. Time will tell folks.
Can I use this speaker with Strymon Iridium?? Will I need a power amp?
You will need a poweramp ;-)
I don't think direct mic'n was the way to go, because that sounded very muffled. Thanks for the review though.
Yeah, it's not something that I would normally direct mic, but there really isn't any other way to show you what it sounds like. So, I was left with either... just talking about the speaker, or a somewhat compromised representation of the speaker. If I was using it live, I'd run direct out of my Kemper, and monitor with the F12 directly, not mic'd up.
Yes, demoing the product was the point of the video and short of some unknown alchemy I'm not sure how else you would convey the sound. Thanks Michael...I've been interested in this speaker for awhile and your demos are always excellent and informative.
Thanks for this video. 👍
A flat measuring style mic would have been useful for this application
Nice job thanks 👍
But you should have a powered Kemper for this, right?
Or any other power amp. You can see he has the Fryette power station under the kemper, and it is on.
@@Beelzehump I would use a powered kemper the fryette is nice but will Colour the sound some what
@@marcvianello511 Not that much, but sure. But if the person has a non powered kemper and wants to use it with a cab it's a good option.
Real question is will this work well with a boss katana
If it’s a combo, I’d stick with the stick speakers. The amp is probably voiced to the speakers
It's a head and I have a 1x12 with a celestion v30 in it but was wanting something with more power
You just have to make sure that the Katana can output a speaker sim through the power amp to the speaker.
That a problem so the f12 fx200 might not a good choice It has cabinet simulation but only for the record/line out not speaker out
Awesome, thanks !
7:02 Ladies Night in Buffalo !!
That's not what I was thinking, but now that you mention it. Yep. :)
You put one of these in a combo amp, and just use the power amp section
Still waiting for these to hit the USA !
I think it sounds good.
I'd take the VHT2150 power amp anyday over the Power Station. Heavy yes but soooo worth the power tone..👍🤘🤘
What they should really do is make this speaker cabinet powered and then make it 2 12 angled cab powered.
Patience! Kemper is busy doing that right now with a custom designed Kemper Celestion speaker. :)
should be even better with a ported cab.
All of a sudden its the digital m9del bandwagon on this speaker and all the videos poppin up
Love your stuff, but please, the Kemper is not a modeler. No one wrote code to re-create the tone of tube amps. It's IR technology, that, IMHO, works extremely well capturing one chosen sound of an amp. BTW, all the IRs capturing (not modeling) mic / cabs no one seems have to have a probem distinguishing one technology from the other. Peace & out! :-)
Damn dude, your rack straight forward and to the POINT. Like Austin Powers said, "yes Bazel, nice RACK". 😮😲😳😵😱 🤤😎
Haha
Not a fan of kemper or any modeling amp, as expensive as they are, why not just buy the real thing the amp it's trying to emulate.Friend of mine has a kemper and at low volumes it wasn't too bad little practice amp, but the more you cranked it the worse it got and the solid state showed up with bright tinty fizz with no warm lows.
The attraction is the versatility. Sound of one amp vs sound of many amps.
Because I would have to a millionaire to buy every amp / cab / effects my Fender Mustang GTX can do very well.
I think the real fire test to this speaker is hear it using a Fender, JC-120, Marshall and Vox cab emulations.
Thumbs up, but thumbs down..
Ha!