FRFR Cabinet Shootout! I Which FRFR should you buy?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2024
- What do you do when you don't know which FRFR is the best? You have a good old fashioned shootout! So HW and the Tone Junkies got together with 5 different cabinets and tried them all out. We used the Mission Engineering Gemini 2, Alto 312, Line 6 Power Cab, and Friedman ASM12.
Which FRFR was your favorite?
Great Great job!!! thanks for demonstrating this. People talk and talk - I like seeing & hearing the speakers using the KP.
Wow! That Gemini 2 is incredible! Thanks for this. Great video!
Good video - keep doing these, you have done a great job on this. Thanks for sharing your opinions. Everybody hears something different.
Thank you!!! Ive searched for this video andx was about to give up. New to the FRFR technology and been lost trying to figure it out. You are awesome! Thanks buddy. Line 6 plus I think for me... Cheers!!
This was a great review to help break things down, thanks for doing this!! Big thumbs up!
Excellent video, gents, as well as fantastic commentary. To me, the Gemini 2 sounds "the best"; personally, for the price of single Gemini 2 stereo unit I got a pair of two Powercab Plus units and now enjoy stereo with nice spread in the room :)
Thanks!
And you don't throw out your back when you move them around.
This is a GREAT video, VERY nicely done - thanks for the awesome info!
I’ve heard the mission in person with good stereo effects coming from a quad cortex and it’s ABSOLUTELY worth the price tag. I would say though, if you already have a good 2x12 cab, consider something like the fryette or synergy single unit power amps and wire up a second speaker jack to give your cab real tube stereo power and sound.
I’ve heard my Kemper like this with a VHT 50/2/50 and it was glorious. Doesn’t sound too bad with my power station but the VHT unit was next level and true stereo.
Poor guy spent all his money on kempers.
Can't even afford shoes. 😔
All those toasters, and no bread :(
@@mucnuggets lol
Haha
Who needs shoes when you have a kemper ? 😀 lol
All those toasters and no fractal :(
Thank you for doing this, the gemini and friedman sounded really good! I want to use it with an iridium or kemper and use it at home, at gigs, at church whatever I'm glad the gemini exists, I just want the best sounding to me. I like the Friedman, but if it's too specialized then whenever the soundman takes a direct line then it will be way different than what you hear on stage
i like this kind of comparison where you'll mention right away if you hear the difference. Personally, i have the Alto 312 and i use it to play bass with.
Change where a Kemper is connected? No.
Have 5 kempers! Hah.
For me and my ears
I will go with ME , and friedman .. those two are good for me ..
thank you for making this vid
I said before I have both the headrush 1x8 and 1x12. I tried running a stereo signal left and right to each. Sounded great. Fortunately you can split and eq each signal separately in the Helix.
Gemini
3:15
5:06
Alto
3:33
5:26
Fried
3:54
5:48
L6
4:24
6:09
Real
4:42
It's so frustrating. All FRFR units, by definition, should sound the same.
Which goes to show you that the types of speaker, along with cabinet construction/materials, go a long way in affecting the sound.
This is such a loaded comment...
"You might think that, but you'd be wrong" -Jeremy Clarkson
Can’t get around different materials and dimensions affecting sound.
But the point of them is to sound the same.
First things first, GREAT video. I have just got into the Kemper world and and have been curious about this very thing and probably the least knowledgeable on FRFR cabs. I already had a Line 6 Firehawk 1500 that i did not use so I thought that I would give it a try by running straight into the monitor inputs bypassing the modeling component. The unit is stereo, however it uses a single 12" woofer for the low end and some configuration of speakers to perform the stereo piece. I think it sounds okay but would be curious to how it compares to other cabs. I know you can't compare them all but I am looking forward to your next video to see what what grabs me. It is interesting to read all of the different opinions on what you just did!
Well done! Looking forward to part 2, with some of the other available solutions.
I have the headrush frfr cab which is just a rebradned alto, and it works great for my kemper, also works great as a talkbox monitor
I liked the Friedman the best. Also I have 2 Alto TS,210s and they don't sound bassy at all!! I was going to get the 12s but got a really good deal on the 10s. Very happy that I did..Go with the 10s. Next thing I'm going to try is running the Helix through a Marshall 40 combo. 1 cable to return on the amp.see who that sounds..
I use a TS312 with my keyboard. I'm very happy with it. Especially for organ. The sound is rich and full and louder than I need. I paid $299 at Guitar Center about two years ago.
Consistently keep liking the Line 6 in every video.
I think people often overlook how much of a role a microphone, Mic placement, and room size have to do with a sound. Kempers are great and I use them but even I can admit that it can't quite simulate all the different factors that go into recording a sound. It's not just an amp or cab that make a tone. There's a lot more to it. That being said, the kemper is very convenient however if I can mess around with multiple mics on different cabs and amps going into different compressors with various angles and room sizes then I will always go that route if possible.
Love your production!!!!!!
Hi HW, I use a Gemini 1 which I love. For half the weight I don't miss the stereo for playing out. One time I was at a place where the electric was bad and we could not get a direct line form the Kemper without a huge buzz and we tried all the tricks. (I've been a studio engineer for 30+ years.) We ended up miking the Gemini 1 and it sounded incredible. I had people asking me how I got that tone. LOL
As a studio engineer one thing that never made sense to me was that I was expecting the FRFR (Gemini 1) to sound similar to my studio monitors when I am running the Kemper, or at least close but it doesn't really. LOL I even mess around with Pure Cab settings but it still doesn't sound like my Gemini 1. Although I do turn the FRFR knob to 50% because the flat FRFR doesn't sound as good flat and that probably is some of the difference I'm hearing. But I still think it should sound better running into my DAW than it does.
If you haven’t, you should try the L3T Line 6, as it works great as single, stereo/dual mono and Wet-Dry-Wet, as active PA’s. They are like form fitting for the Helix, and great with the AxeFX and Kemper.
Enjoyed this, I'm a Fractal AX8 guy. I've got the ASM and I really like it's tone and it was interesting hear your thoughts in comparison to the others.
My other FRFR is a Laney IRT. I got it cheap, mainly for use when I dont want to lug cumbersome ASM about. It doesn't sound as good as the ASM but it's a really good unit to have about because it does have EQ controls and does have a stack of other feature making it a swiss army type unit.
I would like something between the two units, something with the better tones of the ASM with the portability of the IRT so I'm interested in the powercab but am really keen to get a Matrix powered FRFR cab. As these seem the right size and all the reviews speak very highly of it.
I just had a weird, but potentially useful, idea. Take a reference track (Bohemian Rhapsody? Basket Case? Who knows...) and line-in it into each speaker. The one that sounds like the recording wins.
Brilliant Idea..makes sense..👍👍
I wish it was that simple, I played a song on a headrush 108 that was thumping and sounded AMAZING, but my Line 6 did not sound good through it, even after hours of tweaking.
I recently bought a Boss GT1000 and the shop (PMT in Birmingham, UK) specifically advised against using an FRFR because it's going straight to the front of house PA. So, you want a sound coming at you that is similar to the front of house PA and that's the rig you want to set your sound up through too.
In the shop, I used a QSC CP12 (which was awesome) but at home, I've been using an old Alto PS4HA which sounds great. This Alto is very old and comes from the days when Alto seemed to be making quality gear. We gigged last Saturday through a Mackie PA rig (SRM450's + a pair of 18" subs) and whilst the sound out front wasn't exactly the same as the Alto PS4HA it was close enough and sounded excellent.
When I demoed the GT1000 in PMT I tried it through a Headrush 112 as well as the QSC. The difference was stark. The Headrush was very middley. I didn't like it. It sounded like an entry-level PA cab (which is what it is).
Now, if I had the cash I'd go and buy the QSC CP12 because it sounded excellent and was smaller and lighter than the Alto PS4HA I'm using. The QSC would also be less expensive than everything on this video except the Alto TS112/Headrush 112 (same cab, different name).
So, based on my experience so far I'd echo PMT's advice. Don't buy an FRFR. Buy a good quality PA cab or wedge that will replicate the sound of the PA.
HW , wait till you use 2 mission stereo cabs and 2 kempers, massive wide field...really good example on the gemini man well done
You convinced me. I’ll be sticking with my duel JBL 1x12 guitar cabs I bought back in the 90’s. 😁
I have the Freidman ASM 12 and sometimes wish I would have bought something a little bit lighter. For a person with a disability, this thing is a tank but it sounds pretty good. After hearing the comparisons on here where I think the Mission cab sounds best by far but it is heavy!
Great really need an updated version of this comparison with new stuff on the market....I am so confused on what to buy
On the off chance it's not already coming up in part two, the new Laney LFR-112 is well worth checking out.
Great video.
Sound:
1. Mission
2. Scumback
3. Line 6
4. Friedman
5. Alto
Best bang for the buck - Line 6. Nice space saver too.
I’m currently running my Friedman Dirty Shirley through a Tone Tubby cab and then also ( on the line out circuit obviously ) into an Ox and then on over to a Headrush FRFR 1x10. It sounds fantastic and I rarely even use this glorious 2x12 Tone Tubby anymore. The 1x10 Headrush is very reasonably priced too for the sound you’re getting.
Finally you released this video! Pretty good. I never saw that amount of KPAs in the same room!!
Just like you did with the Gemini, you should show the results using the different Flat mode voicing of the PureCab Plus (FRFR, LF Flat, LF Solo). Does it improve your result vs the other solutions? Any thoughts?
Suggestion compare same price range. Perhaps Part II just high end products >$800. Part III FRFR without busting the bank
The fact that they are in different parts of the room has a crazy influence on the sound!! You should all put them in the same place to shoot out I’d say
Yup. And what is around it, next to it and behind it has a big effect on the bass response. Do any of these cabs have DSP compensation for such? Often modern powered PA speakers have that kind of thing, and are most often initially designed to perform best on stands, which would make them too bassy if you put them on the floor.
Yamaha DXR12 or DXR15 are quite common choices for FRFR, the 15 can move serious air and can give a pretty solid cab like feel. I don't know what was the sound level on these when you tried it, but turn them up. I bet the Friedman sounds a lot more open on reharsal/gig levels.
Great video, thanks. I liked the Mission Engineering best, but Line 6 is the best value.
ME Gemini is incredible. Alto should be tried the 310 because the 12 speaker has too bass content, as you noticed
Well this makes things more difficult. I’ve been looking at Friedman ASC-12 and the Gemini 2 to use with a Headrush. This will be mainly for home use, but would like to be able to take it to a gig if that ever presents itself. So, my question is, Do you play through a Gemini 2 everyday now? Or are you still using the Friedman daily at home?
For home use, what would you rather use with the UA Audi Ox Box? Studio monitors or one of these? (For the cab sim and mic sim)
Why didnt you do the Suhr on the cleans at the end? lol Or even at the end of the video..... By far sounded the clearest and best on 1st comparison, and im sure it did on the 2nd aswell :P
There's a new kid on the Block and I think it's going to be a game-changer the Laney lfr-112... Laney has always been on the top of my list as a quality amp and cab Company
I used alto ts212w and its sounds great even in boss ds1..and even in bass boosted backing track...
Subjectivity being an elusive metric, which FRFR cab is the MOST FRFR. Flatness and efficiency are measurable in objective terms using mics made specifically for calibration and equalization.
Finally you released this video! Pretty good. I never saw that amount of KPAs in the same room!!
Just like you did with the Gemini, you should show the results using the different Flat mode voicing of the PureCab Plus (FRFR, LF Flat, LF Solo). Does it improve your result vs the other solutions?
Suggestion compare by same price range. Perhaps Part II just high end products >$800. Part III FRFR without busting the bank
I have a BlueAmps Spark and live in Missouri. It wasn't easy to get it here from Berlin but I simply love it. Power and precision. Stereo and an amp in the room. It's not an inexpensive option.
Amazing how different these sound. In theory they should all sound the same if they were truly flat, but I guess it’s the same principal as studio monitors; get the one you like which doesn’t tire your ears.
This is true, but the differences between the enclosures will have an effect even if all the speakers were truly flat response
@@NOKnova I'd reckon the FRFR principle would have to remain intact after considering the enclosure design. After all, what's the point of marketing it as an FRFR solution? I second the OP; it is baffling how different FRFR solutions can sound.
@@FrankyFeedler it’s kind of a false pretense because it’s not possible to truly achieve a fully flat response. You can however reach a level that is imperceivable to the human ear.
Companies can maintain the marketing spiel by providing the technical data of the response of the speakers - if it’s flat enough to a certain degree, they can call it as such. All sorts of factors can affect how FRFR solutions sound in practice, such as the enclosure size/positioning, design (such as reflex ports, front or rear mounted drivers, crossovers etc) but in a controlled environment pass the tolerances of what could be considered “FRFR”
Edit: to answer the question - the point is centered around the belief that producing audio via a well tuned FRFR system produces a better end result. Gearheads will fight for the flattest response they can achieve, whereas in reality you can do more than well enough by spreading your referencing across a FRFR system (not necessarily ultra-high end) in addition to other listening methods such as headphones, non FRFR speakers, car radio, tv/phone speakers etc.
For multifx/modelers with IR compatability - you want to hear an uncoloured reproduction of your impulse. In theory, the flatter the response of your speaker, the more accurate the reproduction of the impulse.
the frfr cab is just a part of the setup. i use a sm57 and get an even fuller sound. if you want the kemper to sound like the real deal, you gotta do it.
For me it is the Friedman all the way. This was the only one where I felt to hear an actual real amp and cab combo.
What if my combo amp doesnt have an effects loop? Should I try the Kemper Stage in front of the amp into input? Would I need to change any settings?
To me the Mission sounded best out of the FRFR"S. But overall I liked the Powered Kemper with the guitar cabinet. But I guess I'm biased because I run a Powered Kemper and a 112 Orange cab with a 90 watt Celestion Creme.
I use a ALTO 310 with a Helix LT. Regarding the equalization, I only have to use a cut in the low frequencies and use the global eq. totally powerful for a stage or for play with metal drummer.
I'm using 2 Alto 210s you're right about the bass. I'm interested in two other solutions not mentioned in your review, the Xitone and the Atomic CLR. Any interest in reviewing those? I'm using a fractal FM3 live the unit..
Lastly great review! Will done. I really don't like it when people review gear and they're using a super overdriven amp it's really review of the amp not the speakers it's really review of the amp not the guitar You can't even tell what the guitar sounds like your review was just the opposite very well done thank you appreciate it
Big fan of your vids. Im about ready to buy a modeler / profiler but really not sure Axe Fx 3 or Powered Kemper ?? Leaning tord Kemper for most vids I hear the tone sounds more realistic. Have you tried the Axe 3 ? What are your thoughts? What unit sounds more real amp like? Im into old school clasic rock and blues. Srv Hendrix Beatles etc... Im looking to run out into a Frfr cab and out to front of house stereo. Thanks mike
I would not count on any of these speakers to be flat or full range. That said, excellent video giving examples of how each of these cabinets is voiced.
normally if im doing a medium to small sized gig, i will use the same frfr as the front system...this way i know what i am grooving to is the same as the audience...i dont know how many times ive been groovin on stage thinkin the band is killin it, until i step out front and hear the mix...visa versa, ive dreaded to go out front to hear the mix due to the onstage sucking...only to find that the mix is awesome...pay that sound person with respect!
The Friedman sounded more like thew Alto than the Mission. I have the Alto TS315 with a Boss GT-8. I don't have the bass problem because my patches a e.q to taste. I low cut at 165 or 200 hz. Boost my low mids at 500 or 800 hz +3db with a Q=1. The Suhr and Mission cabs are top end balanced.
I have the ASM-12. I am getting some random issues when playing live. It will start to cut out randomly which is a real pain. Any ideas?
The Atomic CLR gets very good reviews - $999. Some people also like the QSC 10 ($699) or 12 ($799).
I have a Laney IRT-X and an Atomic Reactor 50. I bought both used for less than $400. I also had an Atomic Reactor 112 (18 watts) that was very nice that I bought used for $200. I would definitely recommend the Laney for home use. It has the added advantage that you can use it as an "expansion" (not extension) cabinet for your regular tube amp (and digital amp?).
I'm using a fEARless F112 and F115 (12" and 15" neo-based LF drivers, respectively). Three-way passive cabinets with a LF driver, a Faital 5" mids and a tweeter that are FRFR with an affinity for bottom end when presented with it. My F112 will handle up to 800W (the F115 more) and weighs just 34 lbs. Generally flat response (these could easily be used for PA work) with little "baked in" sound, and they accept EQ easily.
I'm wondering what FRFR sounds best with the Helix considering the powercab (line 6) is made to be used with the Helix and their guitar line to best sound like other cabs/effects and guitars.
This is a nice comparison. Had looked at the powercab, but think the friedman sounded good here. Interested to know how the laney 212 compares
Hi guys, this is a great video, very educational. Thanks for investing time on it. I have a comment regarding the Line 6 Cab, i own one myself and I am quite happy with it. To be fair I don't have another FRFR to compare it with, but in my opinion the bass amount is just right, actually sometimes is a bit too deep, so I have to adjust the bass on the profile. I use it with a Kemper Stage. I found the reason why the Line 6 112 plus lacks of bass sometimes - there is a selector for low frequencies in the back of the amp. It seems to me in the video this switch was ON, meaning that it is not reproducing frequencies below 80Hz, reason why it sounds think in the video. That's my reasoning behind the sound, but I might be wrong if you guys selected the low frequencies switch on the OFF position prior to shooting the video. Thanks.
What are your thoughts on the ASM with the Kemper Kone? I also have the ASM.
This was excellent.
I love my Matrix 12a, but I've been wanting a 2x12 solution and I think the passive version of the mission engineering 2x12 is the way to go
You are 100% correct.
Would these be great for my Roland electronic drums? 2 of those and a sub? Headrush?
awesome! i could predict every single one of your reactions to the cabs! seems either you have the same taste in sound as me, or your opinion is absolutely objective :-D if ever i'll need an frfr speaker, it will be the scumbag m75! thank you very much!!!
What the best way to get the closest sound to running direct? Would it just be studio monitors since you are just running out of monitors anyway?
For Part 2 I would love to hear the QSC K8.2 & K10.2, Atomic CLR v2, Alto TS310, and the Yamaha DXR12.
I've run my Kemper and/or Atomic Amplifier 6 through the following: straight to the PA (Jensen 15" mains), Alto TS210, QSC K10, or Hughes & Kettner TM112 (cab emulation off on modeler). Most anything will work if you EQ your presets for what you've got. I found the Alto TS210 is more bassy compared to the QSC K10. Some MUST have the amp-in-the-room sound, but luckily I'm not that sensitive so any speaker will do.
Great! Yamaha DXR10 too... I use it and I like it.
I'd like to hear a Kemper with the QSC K10.2 or a K12.2.
I though a bit about getting an FRFR. Then I used my old Marshall Valvestate 8008 and pimped a 2x12 LaRoqua cab with 2 Redbacks and never looked back. This comparison proofs to me that as a rock player, a good cab with my favorite Celestions is all I need for a, mmh, "normal" rock guitar sound. Cheers!
Do you think the friedman could do double duty if I wanted to use it with both a guitar and bass whenever necessary?
I use a yorkville ps12p with my kemper stage ,sounds great, there so many eq options in the kemper it doesn’t matter really
I have two 12” powered turbo sound floor monitors. Would these be acceptable to use?
Thanks, btw, you can apply Alto for other purposes. Two of them are big deal.
Hey, this demo was great. Do you guys have any opinion about the Yamaha dx10?
I play my kemper [nopower] through a pair of QSC K series speakers and it is brilliant
Thanks for doing it!
Funny how we all go with modelers because we’re tired of hauling our heavy amps around and now the best sounding frfr cabs are boat anchors. Big fun
I wish you fully compared the guitar cab also with arpeggio part. I thought it was the nicest sounding!
Had a Freidman -too base-y . Have the Gem2 sick incredible
If you set up stereo fx on your profiler and go play a gig where the FoH sound is in mono, can you actually benefit from having stereo fx?
Here is the deal..... no matter which one you get, you will need to tweak it to the sound you like. You can get all of them to sound similar.. you might just have to change some of your modeled amp settings.
did you ever end up making a part two of this?
After trying a lot, the best solution for my personal monitor is a traditional cab 2x12 creamback, valve poweramp with cab off in the monitor output, the main outputs directly to FOH
I might be writing this to early but is there a power supply you can buy for a kemper, helix, Headrush,Axfx where you can use it with a regular 2x12 or 4x12 cab.
I have the headrush 1 x 12 and the 1x8. The 1x8 is a little less bassy and a little tighter. I use 1 x8 for guitar and the 1x12 for my electronic drums. They actually both sound great once you adjust the eq a bit. I play a lot of metal. I think if I had to run a line in straight to front of house from my helix I would probably run a separate eq to match them somewhat.
Replaced an Atomic CLR with a Matrix GT1000FX and 2- 2X12 Xitone cabs. Couldn’t be happier.
Awesome review.
The Gemini es AWESOME !!! But too expensive 😟.....Here in Chile guess they are not available. What do think about Laney LFR 112 and Headrush 108 112?
Awesome video I’m playing through stagesource I really want to get the mission
Great review HW, the Gemini might have been $1400 when you shot this but they are now over $2000 . Even used ones are over the new price you mention here.
Indeed. We are talking Tone King Sky King money here. And then the choice is very easy.
Will the powered kemper sound any better then if I get the unpowered one and use an frfr? I’ll be using it for practice/fun/jamming..... I’m a little confused in why I’d need a powered kemper if I can use a good frfr with an unpowered kemper.....
please help
Thank you :)
Recently got a tone X and I was using it with a stage monitor that has 10’’ speaker. I was very happy with it but then I found out about these frfr cabinets and didn’t think twice before getting the new headrush 108. However, I can’t describe how weird it sounds compared to the stage monitor. Way too much bass and such a boxy sound. My concept of having that is literally to amplify my sound that is already being created by the amp and cab AI from the tonex, so I just want to have real feel of how it will sound in the mix when I’m live. Definitely going back to the stage monitor!
01. Gemini 2 - 3:15
01. Alto 312 - 3:34
01. Friedman ASM12 - 3:54
01. Line 6 PowerCab - 4:24
01. Scumback M75 - 4:42
02. Gemini 2 - 5:05
02. Alto 312 - 5:26
02. Friedman ASM12 - 5:48
02. Line 6 PowerCab - 6:09
03. Gemini 2 Flat - 8:35
03. Gemini 2 Empower - 8:54, 9:19
THANK YOU! While I appreciate what he does for the community, it's often a bit too much talking for my taste. ;)
😌👌
up
which FRFR is best for home practice of BOTH bass and electric guitars thru Helix LT AND electronic Roland drum kit?
This is an awesome video gj! I am crazy when I say I liked the cheapo bassy Also the most ? :)
Extremely happy with the Kemper rack into a Marshall 1960B 4x12.
My favorite guitarist on Earth, Takayoshi Ohmura uses that set up & it sounds PERFECT....