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Orthodoxy and the Atonement with Subdeacon Mark!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 เม.ย. 2020
- #Logos #Orthodoxy #Atonement
In this video Subdeacon Mark and I discuss the Christian Orthodox understanding of atonement. We also get into the Latin and Neo-Latin conception as well as why they are wrong. Make sure to check it out and let me know what you think.
God bless 🙏
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When he talked about how man eats death due to the curse of the fall. Something just clicked in my mind about the Eucharist. We are eating not just the death of Christ we are eating his life in the resurrection power. That is so deep. Praise God!
Coming from 40 years in the Evangelical church, it is VERY difficult for me to ignore the scriptures that point to the penal substitution, and even what I read in some of the Church Fathers, Chrystostom, for example who uses legal language and throws me back into confusion. I really wish God had made things clearer. But I will listen again and hopefully the Holy Spirit will deal with my heart.
I agree and I am working through that as well.
Don't worry. Penal Substitution is Orthodox. Listen to the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers of Christ's infallible Church. Not modernists
The liberals (that contaminated orthodox church in past years) are allergic to the idea of God just punishment of sin. But you cannot run from it, they are everywhere in Scripture and the Fathers. Christ died in our place, as if he was a sinner, but being immaculate and sinless, (but his nature was not touched by our sin), in tooking our just punishment for sin, God can forgive us without prejudice to justice, his death was also a pure sacrifice of infinit merit so that grace and forgiveness could abound for us sinners.
The larger Catechism by St Philiret uses “merit” language when talking about atonement.
I’m with you it is confusing because I left calvanism because of the same language.
I’m going to keep studying, and talking to my spiritual father, but right now I don’t see why it can’t be a “both and” situation.
I haven’t heard any Orthodox say we inherited the GUILT of Adam. Which I think is the key to all of this. The guilt was the problem from my reformed past.
@@orthodoxensign Penal Substitution in its western protestant Calvinist understanding is certainly NOT Orthodox.
I’m only twenty minutes in and so loving this!!
There is no need for merit with God only for man who is sinning against God. God’s side and mans side!! There has been such and inversion of God’s will on this!! Talk about compounding the problem. Once you view is aligned to God’s side rather than man’s it’s like being in a whole other reality.
Well this is so beautiful an insight. To die to the one side and be reborn to the other.
Amazing. 🙏😇❤️
Thank you Patrick and Subdeacon Mark and that is thanks to God.
Thank you! Glad you liked it. I know it helped me, I had a lot of misunderstandings. Hope all is well with you and your family during Holy Week. God bless Anna!
Church of the Eternal Logos oh thank you again Patrick. Subdeacon Mark is a treasure. I’m blessed at this time and keep you in prayers my prayers brother.
Very interesting. I'll have to listen to this a couple times.
Thanks for checking it out. God bless
Thank you for the light . . .for my path as I journey on.
Mine too! Thanks for checking it out. Have blessed Holy Week. God bless you and your family.
Subdeacon Mark, thank you very much for a very good talk. I enjoyed it very much. I just would like to comment, that The Russian church does not lean towards the apokatastasis. However, if you look in scripture, there are teachings that the righteous shall go to eternal bliss/ to the kingdom and the sinners shall go to eternal suffering; others teach that all shall be saved. ‘In the end, God will be All in all’ (I may be misquoting that) so there is not one answer but two. However, man will have a choice, as you said, ‘Choice is given’, if man doesn’t want to spend eternity with God, He will not force them. The same fire that can be the warmth and illumination of Gods favor, can be torment and suffering for the condemned. All in all great talk and explanation of the orthodox teachings.
Thank you very much for this informative class. God bless. 🙏
2 Corinthians 5:18 & 19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself . . . .
Brother Cotel hope you are well. Christ is Risen!
Great books!🙃
Agreed. God bless, have a great Holy Week.
I love Orthodox and its theology and spirituality - but a common pattern, I’ve tended to notice (not always of course) is a bit of sanctimony in its distinguishing itself from the “West” (I agree that the Orthodox tradition explains things better and its theology is simply better in many ways, but why the tacit or implicit condemnation of every other Christian? Seems unnecessary). Also, this is one of the most moving and beautiful explanations of the atonement I’ve ever heard.
Agreed.
The "West" would do likewise IF they knew anything about the "East". ;)
@@georgechristiansen6785 I know a lot about the East! Big fan.
And how exactly is the "orthodox" theology "simply better" than the "western" theology? And whatever "eastern" and "western" means? There is no east and west in theology, in the 1st millenium there was one united church.
@@the4gospelscommentary you’re right I shouldn’t have said that. I meant less violent in the ideas of Gods wrath and atonement.
I agree, although the theology of the East is often less thought out as this deacon points out, in his patronizing manner. The view of the majority of Christians, i.e. Roman Catholics, is not much different at all from our Orthodox brothers and is far different from the Calvinist penal view. This man forgets charity and lacks clarity, unfortunately two traits all too common among online Orthodox.
A Catholic view of the atonement might say this: when Jesus atones or makes satisfaction for our sins, he transforms them into the vehicle of goodness, not by appeasing God’s wrath, but somehow introducing God’s love into the world in a new way.
What Jesus did, God willed; and what Jesus wanted, God wanted. In other words, God’s love is the motivation, the cause of our redemption, not its result. It’s only correct to say that Jesus was punished for our sins if we mean that he suffered unjustly the punishment that sinners justly deserve. It’s incorrect to say that God punished Jesus for our sins, because Jesus voluntarily, out of God’s own love, chose to accept the death that the world set up for him.
Whatever Jesus is doing, he is doing it as himself, that is, as the incarnate Son of God -- and whatever he is doing, he desires to communicate it to us. But there’s more. Jesus does something else here, something of value. He’s an agent, an actor in this drama. He makes the cross mean something. In a human way, he makes his torture and death mean his absolute detestation and hatred of sin, and the disgustingness and hatefulness of sin itself. What Christ’s suffering adds to the suffering of people who repent of their own sins is “an expression of utmost detestation for all sins and utmost sorrow over every offense against God.” We do this as penitents for our own sins, but Jesus does it for all sins, everywhere. He shows what they are. They’re a tortured and dead body on the cross
This is a most enjoyable exorcism to me
Glad Subdeacon Mark saw my Michael Douglas meme lol.
this is good! Knowing Good and Evil means knowing Everything = owning and ruling over Everything - a Divine prerogative.
Being a new catechumen, I'm a bit confused about his statement on recapitulation. I thought this was the Orthodox view of the atonement? I'm new, so any insight would be helpful. Thanks!
I would say it is, and all is recapitulated, but some men whose wills are aligned toward God are resurrected to joy in the love of God and others whose wills are aligned away from God are resurrected to suffering because of their hatred of God. In that sense, the river of life is also the lake of fire. He speaks as if recapitulation = universal salvation, but it doesn't. Recapitulation = all being resurrected, because Christ assumed universal human nature, but not all experiencing God's presence in the resurrection as joy.
@taxiarch yeah, that's St. Maximus's view and I've heard Jay Dyer basically repeat this. It makes a lot of sense. I use to be Calvinist and that view makes no sense.
GOD showed us the way because he is that way that all spirtual people all over the world looked for , before christ we needed a guru a rabbi to show us the way and a spirtual secrets and the underlying teachings of the torah text and christ came showed us the way and the truth and he gave us LIFE and why was he cruscified ? So that we can do the same we must become cruscified towards the world and attach to GOD so that we can become pure and become a vessel that GOD can work through . Thats why saint paul said i am cruscified with christ i no longer live but christ lives in me ..... theosis is why christ came .
Adam was made like this but when he ate the fruit he didnt know how to use the tools that god gave him so he started using the good things for his own selfishness and we too .
Thanks for this. Penal Substitution is one of the main reasons I left Protestant Church World.
Same!
What has this to do with salvation.
I like the portion of the Meyendorff quote that man cannot be forced into a union with God even in virtue of God's goodness. I think that is another reason (besides the freedom God gave us to reflect and use) against universal salvation. It is not necessary to establish that God is all good and/or all loving. God does not need creation to establish His Goodness and/or that He is Love.
The uses of language is another problem. Their word's are not revelent for our own era. Myth meant differently from our own meaning of same word. Criticism same, different meaning to our own. So you can't go back to a past that cannot conform too our own cultural and linguistic definition's.
@13:05 He misquoted John 17:24 "Πάτερ οὓς δέδωκάς μοι , θέλω ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγώ , κἀκεῖνοι ὦσιν μετ’ ἐμοῦ · ἵνα θεωρῶσιν τὴν δόξαν τὴν ἐμήν , ἣν ἔδωκάς μοι , ὅτι *_ἠγάπησάς με_* πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου .........you loved *_ME_* before the foundation of the world... *NOT* you loved "them" ..BIG difference.. in fact all the "πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου " (before the beginning/ foundation of the world references are exclusively reserved to JESUS (Eph 1:4, 1 Pet 1:20) which is very different than απο καταβολης κοσμου FROM the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8, Matt 25:34, Luke 11:50) which refers to us. NOWHERE does Jesus say anything about becoming "deified"... we get power to become SONS of God by faith (John 1:12), we get grafted into the vine Romans 11, John 15), we are "predestined unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph 1:5) we can become partake of the divine nature 2Pet 1:3-4 ...... but we do not become deified and Scripture says nothing about that!
That’s because Protestants don’t have an essence energies distinction which leads to a lot of their confused theology. We don’t partake in God’s essence, only his energies.
@@jakemarfoglia Jesus warns us about sticking to HIS WORD not your manmade inventions:
well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
'This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honours me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' (Matt 15:7-9)
that is the very reason
Peter warns us that we should have "purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." (1Pet 1:22-25)
because Jesus says:
"Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:3-6)
@@inTruthbyGrace Nice proof texts but that's not an argument. These are all Calvinist Reformation presuppositions you have in your videos on your channel, even though you correctly identify Calvinism as heresy. You still have her same foundation and presuppositions. Every man is a pope. You have no authority to appeal to for correct interpretation except for personal revelation, which is relativism. I'd encourage you to look into Orthodox Christianity as it was practiced for the last 2000 years, not the modern invention of Protestantism.
@@jakemarfoglia YOU: "You have no authority to appeal to for correct interpretation except for personal revelation, which is relativism"
GOD: "the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be *PERFECT* thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2Tim3:15-17)
GOD: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
_*Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." (1Pet 1:22-25)
GOD " Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (John 17:17)
GOD: " And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live." (Deut 8:3)
"Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." (Psalm 119:104-105)
Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.
Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.
Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.
Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood.
Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies.
My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments. (Psalm 119:114-120)
I *_was_* Catholic..... *_UNTIL I READ the Bible for myself!_*
So what does partaking of the divine nature mean? If there is no deification, partaking of the Eucharist, the deified flesh and blood for eternal life, is meaningless.
Even if the fall never occurred the incarceration would have happened
Source?
@@the4gospelscommentary In the Third Book of his tome Against Heresies, St. Irenaeus writes,
…Luke points out that the pedigree which traces the generation of our Lord back to Adam contains seventy-two generations, connecting the end with the beginning, and implying that it is He who has summed up in Himself all nations dispersed from Adam downwards, and all languages and generations of men, together with Adam himself. Hence also was Adam himself termed by Paul “the figure of Him that was to come,” because the Word, the Maker of all things, had formed beforehand for Himself the future dispensation of the human race, connected with the Son of God; God having predestined that the first man should be of an animal nature, with this view, that he might be saved by the spiritual One. For inasmuch as He had a pre-existence as a saving Being, it was necessary that what might be saved should also be called into existence, in order that the Being who saves should not exist in vain”
And many other fathers
interesting interview, but Mark is creeping me out