eastern orthodox beliefs
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When she talked about Christ filling your heart, i spontaneously burst out crying. Maybe this is the beginning of my salvation.
How is your relationship with Jesus now?
Become Orthodox
Yeah, and these are the things I’ve been trying to explain to protestants for 10 years now and all I get is deer in the head light look, blank stares, or them saying yeah “but still you can’t pray to Saints” or whatever. 🤦♂️ and trust me, I get it!! As an ex evangelical pastor myself, I was also vehemently against all of that. it took years to get over it. But once you fully understand it and in its proper context and capacity, it makes a lot of sense, not to mention it was always done from the beginning of church history.
But what I find funny or ironic is evangelicals don’t even realize the hypocrisy of their statements because all of these things they accuse Orthos and Catholics of doing, they also DO it themselves, but they just don’t see it. They are blinded by their own pride and judgments. When I finally realized that as an evangelical, I also had pictures hanging up in my house of family members (or that were on my mantle). Sometimes we also kiss or talk to them (which technically would be much worse)!
Actually, even worse, we hang pictures of Santa or elves or reindeer during Christmas or Easter bunnies and eggs during Easter, or even worse ghosts, 👻 🧙🏼♀️ witches, and goblins 👹 🎃 during Halloween, which is technically wrong and witchcraft itself. This is FARRRR worse than venerating or honoring a saint!
Plus, We asked others to pray for us, which are not even saints, who may not even be practicing Christians or saved themselves. They also take Eucharist/communion except they do it wrongly, because we just used grape juice and a cracker that they buy from some store or order online, which is kind of blasphemy. We also confessed our faults and sins to one another or to family members or to therapists and counselors. So Why not do it in front of a priest to Jesus? And I could go on and on, so once I realized I was being hypocritical, I was able to move past that rhetoric nonsense.
Praying for Josh. Next thing we need is interviews on: the Lutheran understanding of Baptism (Dr. Jordan Cooper would be great), the Reformed (not Baptist) view of covenant baptism, and then a defense of Roman Catholic theology. That would be dope. We've had the Baptist view shared by both Mike Winger and Andrew Wilson, so it would be dope to have these other (might I add more correct 😉) views of baptism shared
I'm seriously considering Eastern Orthodox Christianity now.....
Please keep us updated on Joshua and his wife. I'll be keeping them in my prayers.
Interesting
Interesting interview. Eastern Orthodox is something I’ve never considered, but things about it have come up a few times in the last couple weeks. I’m interested to learn more about it.
It's the faith of the Apostles. It's the Christian faith before the faith became fragmented due to Roman Catholicism and the confused Protestant faiths.
@@122222770 Faith of the Apostles? lol
@Ναζωραῖος Monasticism isn't a medieval development. The first monastic that we know of that became very important within the church was St. Anthony who lived in the 200s. Also the Orthodox Church does not and never has had ONE bishop controlling the whole church. There are many many bishops who only oversee their own regions. They are not allowed to change doctrine or make new doctrines. Every year all of these bishops meet and is called the Holy Synod.
It's very evident through history and even the Bible that the apostles were sent out to become presbyters (bishops)/elders throughout the known world. Peter was the first bishop/elder of Antioch, Mark was the first bishop/elder of Alexandria, James was the first bishop/elder of Jerusalem and so on. These same seats for bishops still are there today.
@@Orthodoxyandlife One could argue that female coenobitic monasticism dates back even further, before Ss. Anthony and Pachomius, to the apostolic period with the orders of widows and virgins.
Check out Father Josiah Trenham's talks on the Patristic Nectar channel, and Ancient Faith Radio on TH-cam also.
This was really helpful. Thank you guys!
I love FMG so much, and she’s so pleasant a guest to have on…but I think this show needs to have someone like Fr. Josiah Trenham on to answer the questions they’re asking
I battle with denominations who believe you can lose your salvation. If I was incapable of meriting my salvation, how am I possibly capable of maintaining it. I'm entirely dependent on his grace.......
I agree! I appreciate so many qualities of these different denominations, and would love a move towards some of these traditions; but at the end of the day I fully stand for a super clear, reformed, Protestant, baptist teaching of salvation. Nice, plain, clear and boring. Believe and go to heaven no matter what, have a nice day. What is more graceful than that?
Faith in Christ is not a works brother, that’s why we are called to have faith and endure in our faith.
Of course you can lose your salvation - if you lose your faith and love for Christ. There are many former christians like that, for example christians who turned atheist.
@@Hoi4o - then those were never saved in the first place. Once the holy spirit has regenerated a soul it has been purchased by his blood. He knows his sheep and none can pluck them from his hand......
@@rah1721, none can pluck them from His hand, but they can lezve of their own accord, as many places in Scripture attest.
I’m an Orthodox Christian, formerly an evangelical, and I deeply appreciate Fredericka’s transposition of Orthodoxy into the Protestant key. But some core of things gets lost, I think, in the process. Or rather, the Protestant outlook becomes the standard: “We’re like you.” Well, only maybe. Prayer to & with the Saints, icon & relic veneration, and devotion to the Mother of God is deeply theological in Orthodoxy: these are not merely “okay” practices. They grew up in the Body of Christ as manifestations - inevitable manifestations - of orthodox Christian faith, especially the incarnation and our incorporation into it in the Church. I do not ask my patron saint to pray for me out of a sense of warmth. (Mine is John the Forerunner. He is not warm.) The Lord has set up His Church as the primary means of growing His Kingdom in the world, and in this Kingdom He shares authority. At His right hand is His most pure mother, whom He made ready to be His literal temple for nine months and whom on the cross He entrusted to us through St John. She, a poor slave (as she called herself) is now, through His grace, at the head of heaven’s hosts. “He has exalted the humble and meek.” “Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.” These promises are fulfilled & realized in the Saints, including “You will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” In the apostles, bishops & Saints is true spiritual authority (binding & loosing), the authority of heaven’s Lord shared with the righteous, as the scriptures make clear. St James teaches, “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful in its effects.” We pray for one another, but they are not equal. The saints have attained glory by grace through faith. We “feebly struggle.” Their prayers are endued with grace and power by the Lord’s will through His Spirit they acquired while on earth. Even now, they participate in His reign and by their prayers assist us in our journey against the “fiery darts of the evil one,” against whom they contend with power. The communion of saints is one of spiritual warfare, with real power.
And we're back to tradition vs scripture. If it's not in scripture it's not required to practice your faith.
@@User_Happy35 wow, I guess you didn’t read my post or hear how this was addressed in the discussion. Oh, well.
@@failam2918 This allegation is always lacking in specifics because it isn't grounded in real history. Some of the most influential church fathers and formative theologians (Athanasius, John Chrysostom, Maximus the Confessor, John of Damascus, Theodore the Studite) were persecuted by the imperial state, after Christianization.
Well said!!!
@@User_Happy35, of course, "If it's not in scripture [sic] it's not required to practice your faith" is not in Scripture. It thus refutes itself with its own logic.
This was a wonderful conversation, thank you.
I can see Jesus in her.
She is a beautiful soul. :)
Salvation is one mystery that no church can explain. Faith is a gift of God,then who decides to have such a gift??.
Excellent and a very enjoyable interview. I so enjoy listening to Frederica's teaching and reading her articles. She has the ability to give Westerner believers a clear understanding to Eastern Orthodoxy in a loving , intellectual and gracious way. Clearing alot of misunderstanding. One of my favorite speakers.
I also enjoyed having Fr. Ron host the interview along with Michael and hearing his heart. This is one of my favorite interviews along with Tracy Ekhart and Matthew Esquvez.(sorry for misspelling)
Been 3 years so I don’t know if this was corrected in the channel since then, but Pelagius wasn’t a heretic. He’d been absolved by the church several times till Augustine took his accusations illegally to the emperor to finally condemn Pelagius. Problem is Pelagious did not hold to the teachings Augustine falsely accused him of and Augustine admitted as much later in his writings. But it got stuck with the term Pelagian despite the fact that Pelagianism is not something Pelagius himself endorsed. Should be called something else as it’s slandering a brother's name. if Anything Pelagius is the saint and Augustine is the stain in church history that brought so many false ideas into the church. he was a gnostic at heart. If you haven't, you should look into it. Look up Ali Bonner. She’d happily talk with you guys about it on the show. She’s an expert on the topic.
Her saying that the idea of propitiation and substitutionary atonement is merely Western shows how she does not speak for all Eastern Christians, namely, the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, who defiantly have read their Bibles and have come to the conclusion the West has had.
I watched the first one a few days ago and this one just now. Like wow, I wished I had been there to chat! Everyone was having so much fun, and I had thoughts of my own- of course the first is the more important of the two :D
Hope your wife's doing ok :)
All that being said, praying to the saints is an attempt to contact the dead. It also gives the dead saints powers that disembodied spirits are not said to have in the Bible. How can a saint hear a prayer prayed in multiple locations on earth without omnipresence or some worldwide hearing ability.
@Destynation Z They actually visually appeared and audibly spoke to Jesus. That's not what happens in necromancy
@Destynation Z You must be the expert on necromancy I guess
@Destynation Z @Destynation Z I'm sorry bro. I didn't know this about your past. Let's just agree to disagree... strongly disagree with each other. I love the Orthodox church's view on Ancestral/ original sin but I will not justify prayer to the saints since I consider it idolatry. I know you think it's not.
@Destynation Z I've actually in the past spent time studying those terms. We (you and I) would disagree on what constitutes worship.
@Destynation Z I do none of the things you mentioned are done at funerals. But I ain't gonna argue this with you here bro. I'm just happy to know you got out of the occult. May God bless you bro.
Orthodoxy is the faith of the Apostles and early church fathers. It is the truth.
None of what church believe according to Book of Acts follow Eastern Orthodoxy.
@@protestantwarrior1411 Acts is not an instruction manual.
Christopher Larsen
yet, it is a description of the practices of the Apostolic Church.
And yet I have yet to find an Orthodox Christian who doesn’t fight scripture on the perpetual virginity of Mary, or the sinlessness of Mary.
As Pope Benedict XVI said, we don't have to adopt the devotional life that had developed in the East to be iconodule.
Saying we Protestants are hypocritical, there is also hypocrisy in that statement. Saying we Protestants are prideful and judgemental...is that not a judgement in itself?
I'm not sure what people you have wittnessed, but i have never seen a picture of a loved 1 and kissed it. And if i "talk" to the picture, I'm not under any illusion that i am actually talking to them.
When we ask people to pray for us, it's very different than saints as these people are still on earth.
The Eucharist is not done "wrongly" it's just we Protestants don't believe that it's the exact blood and body. Now, you can say that that's "wrong," but isn't that judgemental.?
Jesus is our only intercessor...not another human being. Why confess your sins to another flawed human being when you can go right to the ONE whom you should be confessing to?
I'm not saying that Eastern Orthodoxy is completely wrong, just like i know Protestants aren't always right on everything. I think we can learn from each other.
She talks about the RC being more bureaucratic while the E.O. is hierarchal.
Many years ago a friend of mine asked a Clavinistic Baptist pastor if the pastor thought a Christian could lose their salvation. His reply: “If they do, they can’”
We hear Theosis constantly in the Pentecostal community and from our Wesleyan Holiness roots. We call it Sanctification. Sanctification is glorification begun, and glorification is sanctification completed.
The problem is that the E.O. make icons and devotion to them as a part of the deposit of faith once delivered to the saints. One MUST have icons to be apostolic. And they present so many anachronisms to justify the practice.
Great episode
I was disappointed that you didn't talk about paedobaptism in EO and its role in salvation.
I loved this interview, and I think EO has a lot of things associated with it that protestants could learn a lot from. That being said, the thing that bothers me is when we look at something like the 2 Kings passage and the dead man's body coming back to life, and then we take a story like that and extrapolate a practice or a doctrine out of that. These are the areas that lose me because I am wholly uninterested in making that leap.
I understand your concerns, but the whole idea is that saints aren't dead. They are alive and resurrected, and are together with Christ in His Kingdom. "Contacting the dead" refers to contacting spirits, both of dead people and angelic spirits that fell from God's grace (aka demons/idols/"gods" of the polytheists and pantheists).
@@Hoi4o They are physically dead so only partially alive (until the resurrection), and their spirits are in the eternal dimension/realm. There is no biblical precedent for talking to or interacting with them, and no need to. So it could be spiritually dangerous.
@@willscott4785 No more spiritually dangerous than to ask another christian to pray for you. And there are biblical precedents - St. Paul himself says multiple times in his letters that he is praying for his christian brethren in the different churches. This means praying on behalf of someone else is perfectly fine, and asking other christians to pray for you is perfectly fine. Praying to saints is exactly that, we are asking them to pray for us, we are not worshipping them, it's simply showing respect and asking for their help. We only worship The Holy Trinity - God the Father, Christ and The Holy Spirit.
Seems to me when I hear an Eastern Orthodox compare theirselves to Protestents that they seem to be comparing the worst of Protestents and also seem to act as though all Protestents believe the exact same thing.
Direct communication with the dead is necromancy but a few smart words from this lady overrides this or discounts written teaching
The E.O. view of atonement is opposed to even the early Greek fathers who still held to some sort of satisfaction theory alongside Christus Victor. It's not an either/or.
It is wrong to say that there was never a break in the east. Many E.O. ignore the fact that the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox (Coptic, Ethiopian, Syriac, Armenian) exist when they give their little spiel that "We never had a break or schism" B.S.
Where is that in the Bible has got to be one of the most stupid questions to ask, if you're using it for arguments sake rather than genuinely wanting to find something.
For example did everyone's life just end after the last words were written down on the parchments?
Does the Bible describe St. Paul's beheading?...No.
But it still happened.
Did St. John the Apostle die straight away after the last word of Revelation was written down...no, he continued to live for a few years after.
Does God continue to change lives outside the pages of the Scriptures? Of course!
Where is the term "Protestant" in the Bible?
Protestantism is a branch of Christianity which became an off shoot of the original Church which began around 1500 years after the Original Church was founded... and yet the Original Church still continues to breathe.
There was a great deal of dancing around with the answers.
It seems like the crox of her exegesis is that there is a feel good atmosphere in the practice.
Nothing about her explanations were truly based on God's word.... more history and nostalgia.
awesome podcast, you're great too Michael. praying for Josh wife. This topic interesting, and your guest er intelligent and broadminded
We go straight to Jesus to pray for each other, yes. Strange that she would assume going straight to Jesus equates to not praying for each other.
We don’t communicate with the dead to ask them to pray for us. That’s a wall of communication Scripture makes pretty clear.
I have an Evangelical Christian w-bsite called "Eastern Orthodox Christian" where I explain the heresies of Orthodoxy
Hello. How can I contact Frederica for a personal conversation?
She has a fb! You can try messenger!
Please have a video vis-a-vis C.S. Lewis. Robb Thurston
Those supposed differences between Eastern (mystical) and Western (rational and organised) thinking are just baloney. She should dig deep into Leontius of Byzantium, Maximus the Confessor and John of Damascus and get some flavour of Eastern intellectualism and scholasticism.
This presentation of EO is just a bad marketing scam.
@@failam2918
What are you babbling about?
Roman paganism? Prove it by directly quoting early Christian sources, and quote scholarly sources otherwise.
@@failam2918
The Early Church didn't use modern electronic devices in their services either, and you won't find anything in the NT as well. The NT doesn't tell you to close your eyes when you pray, must be pagan therefore right?
Where does the NT say that you ain't allowed to use or practice anything that isn't mentioned in it? That is an un-biblical presupposition.
Also, if you are ignorant on this topic, by your own admitting, wouldn't it be better to restrain your presumptuousness? Since your claims are demonstrably wrong.
The Early Christians introduced Christmas to glorify Christ's incarnation, something a pagan doesn't celebrate. The Roman feast of Saturnalia was from the 17th to the 23rd December with an emphasis on the holidays of 18th and 19th December. Also it depends on which Calender you use. Many eastern Christians use still the Julian calender where Christmas falls on the 7th January.
Sure, there are plenty of Western Christian mystics and Eastern Christian scholastics, but I think it's fair to say the Western tradition is more juridical and rationalistic, the Eastern tradition more participatory and experiential, at least in a general sense with respect to theological method.
@@ElasticGiraffe
Actually no, there are more well known mystics and scholastics in the Western tradition. Now that might be just in proportion to the population of Western Europe back then starting with the High Middle Ages, in comparison to Byzantium.
Regardless, so many Church fathers in the East are highly speculative, take for example Pseudo-Dionysius with his neoplatonic apophaticism and metaphysics. He had a massive influence on both East and West.
Or think of Gregory of Nyssa writing against Eunomius. He gives a whole theological epistemology and methodology. Taking methodology as a difference between East and West is also baloney. The different schools in the West had even different theological methods: take for ex. Thomism vs. Scotism.
Also in the East you got differences depending how far some were influenced by Origen, as one example.
Could you define rationalism?
@@Acek-ok9dp I don't know what debate you're trying to have and why.... I didn't say anything about whose mystics were better known, and I don't disagree with you on the church fathers, except that you seem to be denying that Pseudo-Dionysius was a mystical theologian. I can name a few more examples if you like: Basil of Caesarea knew and applied Stoic logic, Damascene was a proto-scholastic and major influence on Thomas Aquinas, Scholarius was a pro-Palamite scholastic influenced by both Thomism and Scotism; the West produced highly influential mystics such as Meister Eckhart and Julian of Norwich. I wasn't saying there is no overlap or cross-pollination of thought or that the East/West intellectual distinction can't be overstated. But I also don't think it's particularly controversial to note that Eastern Christian metaphysics is--in general--more participatory and Eastern Christian epistemology--in general--more experiential.
Thomas Aquinas was more geared toward rationalism than mysticism? She is only parroting the E.O. party line. She does not know much about Aquinas, then.
We don’t believe God is omnipresent? Turn to him and he will turn to you. He’s omnipresent through the Holy Spirit.
…For the wrath of God remains on him. How can orthodox deny the justice element and God’s wrath!? It seems so ridiculous. I’m lost
Sorry but the church in Acts had no priests, nor prayed to saints etc... not sure what she's talking about. This denomination would be completely foreign to Paul lol. She seems deceived. She seems to worship tradition. The Christmas tree analogy is funny to me. It's paganism. That's why you celebrate Christmas. The catholic church adopted pagan traditions. What the heck is theosis? Doesn't the bible call it sanctification? I'm a western Christian and I abide in Christ and walk in His presence daily. There is one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. She ends her apologetic with, " I don't know it all, I just follow the church's traditions. "
Exactly, dont forget ariel tollhouses, their concept of divine essence and energies (theosis), and also iconography being linked to salvation is completely foreign to any Christians living during time of Acts.
Protestant Warrior
Divine Energies simply mean Divine operations and acts, and yes the term ενεργεια is frequently used especially by Paul.
1. Priest comes from an English word that shares etymology with Presbyter in Greek, which is found in Acts 14 for elder. 2. Prayer to the saints is misconstrued. In Eastern Orthodoxy, the focus is on people who remain alive in Christ in eternity now. Prayer is intercessory in the same way we might ask a loved one for prayer even now, in this life. A prayer or intercessory seeking of a saint is simply seeking the prayers of believers who have "arrived" and are trustworthy because of how they walked well on earth. It's not magic or necromancy, which would be subversive to God's will for selfish gain. This is a prayer to a fuller Body of Christ (a Great Cloud of witnesses) for intercession -- not special knowledge. Furthermore, prayer for the dead was not foreign 2nd Temple Judaism. While this is not intercessory, it does note that the gulf between the here and now and heaven has been bridged by God in meaningful ways (especially for the Christian, who lives incarnationally in union with Christ, the living fulfillment of Jacob's ladder). 2 Maccabbees 12:39-45 shows us that praying for the dead can be superfluous, but praying for God to be merciful on their eternal fate can be righteous. Paul may have used such prayerful form when he writes to Timothy in 2 Timothy 1:16-18. Here he first prays for the family on Onesiphorus and then mercy on that day [judgement?] for Onesiphorus. His language parallels Maccabbees, which suggests that he is praying for Onesipherus's family, perhaps because he has gone to be with the Lord. And then he prays for God's mercy on Onesipherus [in judgement?], who is probably deceased. Most Protestants assume Onesiphorus was alive and it's just Paul praying for he and his family, but the formula matches Maccabees, which suggests a prayer for someone who has died. 3. Sanctification was championed best by John Wesley in the West, and he was Anglican. Wesley was quite fond of the East (as many Anglicans were in his day) and so theosis likely influenced him. At the heart of theosis is 2 Peter 1:4, which says that we partake in the divine nature of God. We do this not by merging our nature into God's, but by relationship to the One who has our nature and God's -- Jesus the Christ. Yes, theosis is roughly an analogue of sanctification.
There early church did revere and honor saints and prophets - John Baptist, for example. There are icons of him 200 years after Christ walked the Earth.
The story about Elisha is 2 Kings 13:21
The E.O. church here in KY has a splinter from Jesus' cross, so they say... LOL
Theosis is just fancy Greek for sanctification. E.O. like to make it esoteric. The E.O. needs to understand Pentecostalism and Wesleyanism better than they do.
You have to experience it before it makes sense.--says E.O....and Mormons. If you can't explain a teaching and have to rely on so-called experience, then there is something wrong.
Let your yes be yes...speaking "hyperbolic" language has consequences to theology.
E.O. make false dichotomy between positional truth and mystical experience.
So how does the discern between familiar spirits and the ....Saints?
What exactly do you think Orthodox Christians are 'doing' that an unclean or familiar spirit would want to be a part of it? Divining the future? We don't believe we're having conversations with dead people.
"Praise [the Lord], sun and moon,
Praise Him, all you shining stars!
Praise Him, you highest heavens,
And you waters above the heavens! ...
Praise the Lord from the earth,
You sea monsters and all deeps,
Fire and hail, snow and frost,
Stormy wind fulfilling His command!
Mountains and all hills,
Fruit trees and all cedars,
Beasts and all cattle,
Creeping things and flying birds!"
Somebody, tell the psalmist to quit trying to commune with celestial objects and animals! How does he know he isn't consorting with evil spirits? 😱
@@failam2918 No one is trying to strike up a conversation with the dead. No one is summoning spirits or trying to solicit information from them (necromancy). We acknowledge they are alive in Christ and full members of the communion of the Holy Spirit awaiting the resurrection, honor them as victorious, and address them only to ask them to pray to God for us because the prayers of the righteous avail much. Christ conquered death and broke the gates of hades. Biological death does not separate us in worship.
@@failam2918 Is this conversation really so hard for you to follow?
@@failam2918 What is "clear cut" is that Christians worship the God of the living, not the God of the dead. Asking another living Christian to pray with us is very Biblical...
Saints are alive, as they are resurrected and together with Christ in His Kingdom. "The dead" refers to people who died but did not make it to the Kingdom. And yes, we do not contact them, we don't want anything to do with them.
Icons tell the story of the Bible
Bible Only ,,, Is Not Bible !
The Bible refers you to books of scripture that are not in the Bible and refers to secular history books .
Such gobbledygook!
At about 40 mins etc on prayer to dead saints … Jesus teaches us how to PRAY. When you pray pray “Our Father which is in heaven” etc. typical of Eastern Orthodox or Roman catholic things on these shows there is natural human justification without ANY testing with scripture.
Call no man Father etc. it’s endless!!! Painful to see the promotion of error by you guys without any proper questioning or interaction.
nice conversation. I attended many EO services while I was a seminary. While they say they only venerate icons it seemed to me to be more like worship. the bowing and the kissing of the icon. Expecting miracles from the icon. It was just too much for me.
The eastern church really did not go through the Pelagian controversy. I like deification but only in the sense that it is part of sanctification. If that distinction is not made then I think it tends to devolve into a working your way into a union with God. Thus you are not completely right with God until you work your way into being right with him. I like the participation language with deification and that it gives an interesting view of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. To me deification became a healthy corrective to an over legal or forensic western salvation.
Another thing that was helpful for me as I learned from EO theologians, including the church fathers, was a better appreciation and understanding of tradition and liturgy. I still hold to sola scriptura but I understand that interpreting scripture with the church and the great tradition is important. It is not like the RCC though in which there is one see and one view.
Finally I learned a lot about the incarnation and the trinity as I read the early church fathers and later Orthodox theologians. I still feel like the average church in the west dos not really appreciate these doctrines the way they should. What I mean is that we often try to have our christianity and only give lip service to the formulations of these doctrines and not make these doctrines central to how we understand all other doctrines and more importantly scripture itself.
It's the equivalent of bowing to someone and kissing their hand. It's a sign of great honor and reverance, as someone who has gotten very close to God. It's not the same thing as regarding them as equal to God...
The Serpent on a pole represented Jesus ,,,, ???? W H A A A T ?
What's You Talking About ?
Dan , a banner tribe of Israel , flew the banner of The Serpent and the Eagle .
Dan was the rear guard , dog soldiers , last in the marching order . Sacrificial lambs ,,,,,,
The serpent represented ,,,,
The Sacrificial Lamb ,,,,,,
Jesus is the one who said it.
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
- John 3:14-15
How can one get out of the presence of an Omnipresent God ?
Your Imagination ,,,,,,
Okaaaaaay
Prayer to the saints must be understood in the context of the narrative bit in the gospel texts where the disciples ask Jesus to teach them to pray. Jesus says, “When you pray…pray then this way, Our Father…” and so on. We are invited to address God directly which, in itself, is mind blowing enough. Prayer to the saints just doesn’t make sense to me. The logic presented here relative to praying to saints doesn’t work for me.
It's not prayer in the same sense as prayer to God (the Holy Trinity). We are simply asking them to pray for us to Christ, as we believe they are alive and resurrected with Him, and are as His friends in His Kingdom, as the Apostles were. Our whole belief system is a pyramid with The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit at the top. All prayers, however they may be worded technically (due to countless translations in numerous languages over 2000 years), are intended for The Holy Trinity. I hope this clarifies it more.
I think we should get Marcionism out of the "church". Let's start with that and we will be closer to the real Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. God the Father of Jesus is the same as He was before: He is against idolatry. Voices that come while worshipping idols do not originate from God the Creator.
Then I suggest this. Remove all photos and painting's from your home to start. Have nothing with pictures. Cover your head. Do not eat pork or shell fish. Another thing thing, Jesus never changed the Sabbath day. Sunday is not the Sabbath. Jesus greatest teaching was love. God Bless
@@ValerieDee123 I'm glad, Valerie that you understood how you should start really pleasing the God of Israel, the Father of the Lord Yeshua of Natzeret. I gave up pork and shell fish when I understood that God who made the human body knows what's better for it and gave us dietary instructions to our own benefit. That's when I started keeping Shabbat and the Holy Days too. As for the paintings and pictures, I don't display family photos in my house and I don't worship, light candles or pray to paintings. BTW I also cover my head when I pray. Chag Pesach Sameach Valerie.
@@shemmen1488Jesus was a carpenter so you can start with a carpentry
This woman is deluded at best - there is serious error/sin and idolotry in speaking to those that that have have passed on.
50:00 I don't know this woman's name but your representation of Catholic Maryology is very wrong!!
I am noticing this amongst Eastern Orthodox Christians:- what seems to be a purposeful and concerted misrepresentation of what The Catholic Church teaches about Mary.
I have heard an EO priest proclaim that we Catholics put Mary in The Most Holy Trinity as a 4th Person. Hmph!
You are VERY WRONG for implying that the RCC seeks to *make* Mary this or that or "change things in heaven". Quite the contrary. The Catholic Church seeks to bring down what ALREADY IS FACT about Mary in Heaven, down to Earth ["Thy Kingdom Come. Thy Will be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven"].
What the Catholic Church has revealed about Mary is but a drop of what is the Vast Ocean of Truth about Heaven!!! There is moooorrreee to be explored.
You should have quit at the well-enough of "I am not an expert on Catholic Maryology".
ETA:- 50:45 I'm sorry but this hierarchy thing you grew up with in your childhood household IS NOT Catholic Teaching. Yes, Mary does have a high position in Heaven as Queen of Angels, Queen of Saints, Queen of All, etc. But there is no "hierarchy of prayer". You are being ridiculous here and I know you know it! Catholics go to Mary and the Saints the same way Orthodox Christians do- for INTERCESSION. You can go to one saint, you can go to Mary and other saints....you don't do some hierarchical nonsense....that makes ZERO SENSE as it then becomes NOT ABOUT INTERCESSION but about "a fear of accessing God" -which the Catholic Church teaches that we ALL have access to Him.
Lady, keep it honest pls.
In Love and honestly asking. How is she the queen of heaven, or queen of Angels or queen of all. Where is any of this in the bible.
This would be my main problem with Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox is why are we putting the tradition of men over the word of God. When Jesus says we shouldn't do that.
@@garyboulton7524 I understand your confusion. Believe it or not I was very confused about all of this until this past February when God opened my eyes to The Truth of The Catholic Church.
It is not "Traditions of men". It is Sacred Tradition.
There is a problem within the Protestant Movement known as "Sola Scriptura". What Protestants are doing is taking the Bible out of its Historical Context and using it as "the sole authority". This is not what The Bible -which was compiled and issued by the Eastern Orthodox/Catholic Church in the 4th Century - was designed for. When the Reformation occurred, the Reformers didn't know what to fall back on as an authority since they were breaking away from The Church....so they had to pick the Bible. The Bible is authoritative but it is not the sole or final authority....that is not what it was designed to be used for.
The original understanding by ALL Christians for the first 1500 years of Christianty is that we follow "The Church". Sola ecclesia if you want to call it that (I am hearing this argument being made in Catholic circles recently). We are not to follow a Book or a person, but The Church Christ set up, right before He ascended. Notice Christ did not leave a Book, He left a group of people- The Church.
Catholics and Orthodox continue to keep to this Tradition.
Now to pin-pointedly answer your question. The Bible was given by The Catholic/Orthodox as but ONE REVELATION of Christ...other Revelations include Maryology/Communion of Saints Doctrine, the Teachings of the Magisterium (The Catechism), the Theologians/Mystics/Saints, etc. etc.
We Catholics believe that there is continuous Revelation of Christ through His Church over time (check what I listed above). The Bible just happens to be one of such Revelations. These Revelations are Truths, Facts about what already is in Heaven (notice my quote from The Lord's Prayer in my original post). Hence, Catholic Maryology is what is already Truth about Heaven. The Catholic Church is not JUST MAKING THINGS UP!! These things are Divinely revealed and then over time, over the course of many centuries they become solid Doctrine that is to believed by all Catholics or even dogmatised!
Prayerfully look up "Maryology for Everyone" by Franciscanfriars here on YT. It's a playlist of about 40 videos. Will be a helpful resource for you.
@@thekingslady1 Okay, thank you for your thoughtful and in depth response. I get what you mean by that Jesus did not leave a book, he left a Church. However, can we agree that people are fallible and traditions are fallible but the bible is not. Since it is God breathed. I believe God gives revelation today but not as authoritative by itself but only as far in as it relates to scripture. Were told to test everything and like the bereans being praised for taking everything paul said against scripture to make sure it was true. We're also supposed to do that. That's why we believe Sola Scriptura, that the word is the final authority, and is far above any other form of revelation. And again that any revelation that God gives must line up clearly with scripture. My problem with The Catholic view of mary is that it does not line up with scripture at all. And like I said like the bereans we must test everything against scripture to make sure it is from God because the Holy Spirit wont contradict His word. And this also goes into asking the saints to intercede this links up no where in scripture. Because the Holy Spirit intercedes for us and Christ is our mediator. Now some would say but then why do you get others to pray for you. The reason why I believe it to be different is because we're told to intercede for eachother. The living praying for the living. We are never told to communicate with saints that are passed. No where in scripture. And it keeps coming back to whether God would contradict His word. I believe the bible teaches He wont. Even if you don't take the word as ultimate authority, you believe it is Gods word and divinely inspired therefore inerrant and complete. Ive already quoted from 2 timothy 3:16-17 but this shows that with the word alone we are equipped for every good work. We dont need anything else but the word and what it prescribes like Church meeting, worship and prayer to God and fasting. But it never talks about us needing new revelation that contradicts His word or to pray to the saints or to hold mary up to a position that we dont know she holds or not because the complete word does not reveal it.
One of the ways we know whether someone is a false prophet or not or even just has a wrong teaching is whether his "revelation" lines up with the word.
Do you see the reason why many would see a problem here?
@@garyboulton7524 The Revelations are authoritative- it is Sacred Tradition and Teachings of The Church, hence are infallible. They are just as "God-breathed" as The Bible. There is no difference. We do not hold one over the other. They are equal. You need to understand the Catholic way of thinking. We believe that The Catholic Church= Christ. These Teachings are not by man, they are revealed through fallible men, yes but they are the Teachings of Christ Himself. This is The Faith of a good and faithful Catholic- that s/he is following the teachings of Christ in following the teachings of The Church. It is Christ we are trusting ultimately- Christ in The Church - not the imperfect people He reveals things through.
Also keep in mind that there are certain Doctrines and Dogmas that I am *required* as a Catholic to obey. Not everything you hear in a Catholic homily is required to be believed, for e.g ALL Private Revelations, of which Apparitions fall under, I am not required to believe any. Not even one. But, The Church-approved ones, I am strongly encouraged by The Church to look into and hear what God is saying through the Apparition. Also there are some teachings/Doctrines that are widely believed and preached amongst Catholics but is not a dogma or solid Doctrine, so I don't have to believe it either ("Mary was sinless" would be one of them...I think. Pretty much all Catholics believe it, but it is not a dogma or solid Doctrine of the Church as far as I know).
You have to understand that Catholics think COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY from Protestants and in order to understand the whys and wherefores of what we do, you will need to step in properly into The Catholic Paradigm and not make assumptions about us all the way from over there.
There is an incompleteness in Protestant thinking and "Sola Scriptura" is the cause of this!
"Sola Scriptura" is not Biblical, it is man-made. It is not found anywhere in The Bible. Desperate men had to come up with it and look at the result. Protestantism is a mess rife with all manner of heresies, devilish doctrines, and all manner of sects and factions.
Everything you believe about The Bible is because The Catholic Church told you so. So why are they right on The Bible but wrong on Maryology?? That is contradictory. You are telling me that "I believe... I believe... I believe... " that is the problem right there!!
You believe A, Protestant B believes B....and on and on it goes with 528 beliefs on one Doctrine! I even just found out that there are at least two understandings of "Sola Scriptura" within Protestantism! So Protestants can't even agree on what is supposedly the foundation of their Movement 🤦
Also:-
"The living praying for the living".
The Saints are alive. God is not The God of the dead but of the living.....this is Bible. Sacred Tradition, the Teachings of The Magisterium, The Bible- these are the three legs that hold The Church up and they do not contradict each other.
Once you get over the hump of seeing the Saints as "dead", everything makes sense.
Nobody debated praying to the Saints AT ALL for 1500 Centuries. Not even the Reformers. There are prayers to Mary by Christians from the 2nd century- before "the Romanization of Christianty" as Protestants like to call it🙄
The catacomb drawings prove praying to the Saints -because they are indeed alive.
The Protestant Movement has broken away from this Ancient Teaching and stripped itself of The Mystical....hence what we have are young people banging their heads on the walls of the suffocating room called "Sola Scriptura", then apostasizing when they can't take it anymore!
@@thekingslady1 Question can the Church be false in doctrine and practice? If no, then theres a big problem with the way were dealing with reality because of course they can. If yes, then why would you trust the tradition of men as much as the Word of God.
Where in the Word does it say we need more than the Word. If Church tradition and the Word are equal in authority they wont contradict eachother.
Having the word of God as your final authority is not suffocating. Its logical and anuyhing else is illogical.
You said that everything Christians believe about the bible comes from the Catholic Church. Then why would I not trust the traditions, and you said I'm being contradictory. The problem is, let's say everything I believe about the bible comes from the Catholic Church, cool but I can still find it in the bible. So that's literally sola scriptura, Catholic teaching which lines up with the Word. I have no problem with that. My problem is other traditions like The Catholic view of Mary or praying to the saints, I cannot find it in the bible anywhere. So the two dont add up.
Even if the early Christians prayed to the saints, sorry I honour them but I could care less about what they did if I cant find precedent for it in the bible.
Question: Did Paul pray to the saints?
And I think this is what alot of it comes down to. We should honour the saints and especially the apostles. And mary aswell. But no way should we take there teachings over what Christ said. Theres a line that we should not cross in honouring the saints and honouring tradition.
If the Catholic Church = Christ. Then shouldn't these teachings line up with His word. When He taught us to pray, how did He do it? Who did He say to pray to?
Then you said about heresies. Fair enough like I cant argue. There are many heresies throughout the centuries. But heresies didnt come about when the reformation happened. Arianism?
And what heresies are you talking about? I'd like to see if any protestant holds to them.
On the line of heresy. Just a innocent question I just want to know. Doesn't the Catholic Church teach faith + works = Justification.
Love the conversation though sister. If I'm being offensive in any way please let me know. And by the way you would see me as a protestant but I dont identify with any denomination, I'm merely a Christian. I follow Christ and that's it. Just so you know.
Also what do you mean by mystical? Because you said we dropped the mystical side of Christianity
58:48 so disappointed to hear that. I’ve heard Eastern Orthodox before repudiate Augustine. They blamed him in large part for the corruptions of Western Christianity. I think that’s largely right.
@@mosesking2923 "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings." - John Calvin
Orthodoxy does reject Augustine. The Western church loves Augustine but yes orthodoxy rejects Augustine I’m not sure why she said that. She said a few things that are not in line with true Orthodoxy, she was just being polite and trying to keep the peace.
@Melancholy Soldier I still don't know why we have him as a saint he corrupted the Latin west with his gnostic/manichaeanism ideology and mixed it with Christian lingo
Orthodoxy has a complicated relationship with Augustine. There are some serious errors with his theology, and it didn't help that he admittedly couldn't read New Testament Greek, but some Orthodox critics overdo it.
Frankly, everyone strongly disagrees with Augustine in some areas. Calvinists have to contend with his sacramental ecclesiology and belief in baptismal regeneration, Roman Catholics and Lutherans the fact that he certainly appears to have embraced double-predestination.
He is not canonized as a saint by the Orthodox church, so she was wrong about that. But he is certainly accepted, respected and quoted by orthodox thinkers and theologians, which perhaps led to her mistakingly thinking he was canonized.
Listen, God requires Repentence and being baptized in Jesus Name.
Read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit guide you.
God requires no burning of candles, or rituals. Just live HOLY.
Don't follow the traditions of MEN. Follow the WORD OF GOD ONLY.
Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself.
Follow the Bible not denominations or branches. There are no SACRAMENTS in the Bible, sorry.
Everything must centee on JESUS and him alone.
No statutes, no candles, no rituals, no pictures of who you think Jesus looks like, no image of things in Heaven.
All these false religions.
Follow Jesus only.
Follow the Bible only.
The New Testament only speaks of Christians only as being born again.
Not Protestant, not Catholic, not Pentecostal,
not Methodist, etc.
These are names we have given to religion.
Jesus told his disciples to FOLLOW HIM and not religions.
Live HOLY UNTO GOD.
Don't follow men.
Nothing complicated at all.
Do what God says and not man.
Father will meet You where You are at to minister to You Personally
If you worship the fish God , He will have a great fish spit some guy out on the beach with Your WORD !
All will be taught by God ,,, taught here is sound down into the ears .
Knock Knock ,,,,,
The Bible says not to call anyone “Father”.
You'll have to read up on the context behind that statement.
It means not to equate anyone to God. It has historical and cultural context, as a bunch of ancient cultures revered their kings and great priests as deities as well.