Orthodox Christianity: Pagan doctrine of the "Atonement"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ส.ค. 2019
- Presbytera Irene Matta MTh interviews His Eminence, Archbishop Lazar (Puhalo) OCA (retired) at his Monastery of All Saints of N. America in Canada. Atheism results from this idea that God requires a "blood sacrifice" from His Son - a shocking departure from the Revelation of God's loving Son in Holy Scriptures and His restoration of our alienation from the Father with the Holy Spirit! Please contact us at Orthodox Mission, POBox 2395 Santa Maria CA 93457 for free information and times of classes on Baptism: Entering the Orthodox Faith.
"The substitutionary sacrifice is a neopagan doctrine worthy of baal or molech but not worthy of the Living God." That's an incredible insight.
Such a refreshing realization and a liberating teaching of the Gospel. I am now a very grateful Orthodox Christian since Pascha of this year. God is so good! Thank you for posting this! I just love hearing this wonderful man speak!
This is one of the recordings that one needs to listen to like twice or three times to break down the depth and wisdom in it
I havent finished the video yet but i am so thankful for this. I come from a protestant background so clarity on this topic is much appreciated. Archbishop Lazar and you, Irene, have been so integral in growing my faith. So glad to see a new video with you both. Its a great blessing. Thank you both, you are always in my prayers.
This is beautiful! So thankful for this video. It resonates so much. ❤
This is one of the most wonderful talks I have ever heard
Listening to this is so rich and I'm not even in clear head I reacted to this the first time but really the incarnation and the two natures coming together in Christ that theme is so rich rich thank you thank you for posting this
Thanks for such a timely message from a person who knows so much truth from the bible as well as life experiences
Thank you sister, I needed to hear these things as a Catechumen
Thank you so much for uploading this!
Thanks for uploading this. So far this seems like a form of Christianity I could get behind.
Good to hear this! Welcome to the "original" Church in which all we believe as Christians is fully present and lived from the Apostles' age to the present within the Holy Orthodox Churches - in the Eastern European and Asian/African continents as from the Apostles' missions after Pentecost. Charlemagne (800 - 1000 a.d) conquered Europe and methodically eradicated all Orthodox Clergy and Christians, replacing them with his soldier "bishops". He force-converted most, as his successors would do throughout the world (cf Latin America and Mexico Padres with Soldiers) and waging war "crusades" to conquer not give the Gospel. Please see our videos "the Frankish Church" and "Pope Francis " etc. for more historical information based on biographies and untouched records from this time available from Dr JS Romanides at www.romanity.org under "Contents" and "Frankish Church" with scholarly historical references not "expunged" by the Franks to ensure their claims to be the "original" church. It remains without Holy scriptures and the Apostolic teachings to this day. God keep you from these things and bring you safely into His harbor, the Holy Roman Orthodox and Apostolic Church with national Bishops through out much of Europe and America today.
Wonderful to the ears of an ex Protestant new Orthodox convert
We learned as we read St Irenaeus, and asked for the baptism and renewal of the Holy Spirit from the Heavenly Father through Christ our God - the "Baptizer in the Holy Spirit" our LIFE! Glory to God and thank you!
The first time I listened to this I didn't get startled by what the father just said co-suffering love that's what Calvary demonstrates more than all things that is so drawing so humbling so piercing thank you
I'm seeking prayer to be restored cuz what was given to me was robbed and I do believe the devil didn't want me to join I told the Lord maybe there was pride and I fell back and it brought torment but I believe that I'm upheld by the incarnation and I need prayer I was robbed of beautiful truth and stress and attacks came on me and separation the threat of not belonging to Christ
Thank you for sharing. God bless always.🙏
this was good; thanks.
You're welcome!
I came to these conclusions without knowing about orthodoxy.
Thank you
Predestination is still a mystery of God will. All these subjects that is discussed is fine, but again predestination or the foreknowledge of the eternal spirit is the only key to open the door ( christ the saviour) to the kingdom. I believe that jesus words in gospel of john chapter 17 is very revealing.
Predestination is not "or" Foreknowledge! It's either One or the Other. Foreknowledge means God knows - as all-knowing - what the ultimate choices and outcome are, without interference because He gifted us with Free Will. Predestination denies this gift of God and makes us robots without choices. That's false and a convenient tool of Augustine for problems with his philosophical outcomes.
A comment about need for the Scapegoat was to bear sin away in the Law: Christ is the Lamb of God, the Unblemished offering, Whose Precious Blood washes and cleanses us, as we partake of Him in the Holy Mystery of Eucharist. He is never referred to as the "scapegoat:.. BE CAREFUL WITH TYPES used in the Law, especially those referring to Christ's sacrifice. To keep safe from misapplying aspects of the OT law and Temple sacrifices- Read the Fathers on these verses in Hebrews, especially St Ambrose and St Bede. Do not stray from these fathers and avoid westernized rationalism (Augustine and Anselm) with the absurd idea that the Father is somehow condemning the Son, etc. Blasphemous thoughts!
Way to go.
AMEN AMEN AMEN
Lovely talk. I am a catechumen; and though I have heard the main ideas of this talk elsewhere, it is edifying to hear them in new words with particular details, it helps me to concretize my burgeoning faith.
Mil gracias !
Personally, I am aghast and agog that 2000 years of theologians pondering the scriptural teaching about the death of Jesus that they still refer to it as an "atonement" and still speak of "the value of the merit" of it. Nowhere is the death of Christ said to be an atonement and there is no discussion of any "meritt" that it bestows on anyone. Never. It speaks of the death as a "propitiation" and tells us that the righteousness of God is the forgiveness of sins.
An atonement is made by a sinner as an expression of remorse and an appeal for forgiveness. Jesus did not die to express his remorse or to ask for forgiveness for his sins.
A propitiation is made by a judge who is inclined to forgiveness of the sins of an innocent or repentant person, to be vindicated for their "failure" to execute vengeance. It was God the Judge of All who made propitiation by offering the suffering of his own son to demonstrate to the public that he did not negligently or flippantly forgive sinners who had harmed others because he too was a victim of their treachery.
That justification is forgiveness, not vicariously earned merit is easy to show:
[Luk 24:47 NLT] (47) It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.'
[Luk 1:77 NLT] (77) You will tell his people how to find salvation through forgiveness of their sins.
[Act 2:38 NLT] (38) Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[Act 26:18 NLT] (18) to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God's people, who are set apart by faith in me.'
[Jas 5:20 NLT] (20) you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.
So "Limited Atonement" needs to go back to the drawing board and start all over.
Also, the elect were the remnant of Israel that Jesus was sent to gather - the lost sheep - as told of Ezekiel 37 and Isiah 10:21 and elsewhere:
[Isa 10:21-22 NLT] (21) A remnant will return; yes, the remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God. (22) But though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant of them will return. The LORD has rightly decided to destroy his people.
[Jer 44:14 NLT] (14) Of that remnant who fled to Egypt, hoping someday to return to Judah, there will be no survivors. Even though they long to return home, only a handful will do so."
These elect were the firstfruits that followed the Lambkin wherever he went on the shores of Galilee, etc. aka the 144,000. The great crowd are as innumerable as the stars of the heaven and the sand of the sea.
"Lawyers never die"... carry their "briefs" with them wherever they go! Loving prayer, Presb'a Irene
🙏🌺☦️🌺🙏
The timeless Gospel preached by the Apostles, which Orthodox Christianity from Pentecost, teaches, has NO "penal substitution" no matter how you want to" read this" into the Scriptures. We can "read in" universal salvation, a "punishing god" - all sorts of perversions of the revelation of Christ. That's the reason for having commentaries from the Apostles and their successors to help us understand the words of the Lord. Christ our God ransoms us from fear of Death by destroying Death. This timeless Gospel is new to most of you, but do not dismiss it: you will see how ALL of the Gospel fits in with this understanding. Also, please read the Fathers of the Faith like St Irenaeus of Lyon whose work "Proof of Apostolic Preaching" (from St John's the Apostle) pre-dates our "bible" by 2 centuries. These are the writings that help us interpret the Scriptures in a Life-giving way from the Lord and not the perversion of God the Father into a horrific "god" requiring blood sacrifices like any pagan deity.
Thank you for this video.
I am not Greek Orthodox, but I can vouch for what you state about Irenaeus, as I just finished reading all his writings. Here are some quotes I selected from Irenaeus' writings related to this topic:
“...the Lord taught distinctly, as I have pointed out. For when He perceived them neglecting righteousness, and abstaining from the love of God, and imagining that God was to be propitiated by sacrifices and the other typical observances, Samuel did even thus speak to them; “God does not desire whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices, but He will have His voice to be harkened to. Behold, a ready obedience is better than sacrifice, and to harken than the fat of rams.” David also says: “Sacrifice and oblation Thou didst not desire, but mine ears hast Thou perfected; burnt-offerings also for sin Thou has not required.” He thus teaches them that God desires obedience, which renders them secure, rather than sacrifices and holocausts, which avail them nothing towards righteousness...rejecting, indeed those things by which sinners imagined they could propitiate God...From all these it is evident that God did not seek sacrifices and holocausts from them, but faith, and obedience, and righteousness, because of their salvation.” Book 3, Chapter 17
“The oblation of the church, therefore, which the Lord gave instructions to be offered throughout all the world, is accounted with God a pure sacrifice, and is acceptable to Him; not that He stands in need of a sacrifice from us, but that he who offers is himself glorified in what he does offer, if his gift be accepted...he who thus cherishes secret sin does not deceive God by that sacrifice which is offered correctly as to outward appearance; nor will such an oblation profit him anything, but [only] the giving up of that evil which has been conceived within him, so that sin may not the more, by means of the hypocritical action, render him the destroyer of himself...Sacrifices, therefore, do not sanctify a man, for God stands in no need of sacrifice; but it is the conscience of the offerer that sanctifies the sacrifice when it is pure, and thus moves God to accept [the offering] as from a friend.” Book 3, Chapter 18
Beautiful video. I had dinner with my "protestant mentor" last night and tried to explain to him I no longer believe in penal substitution, as you can imagine..he told me I was departing from Christianity, denying what is "clearly taught in the bible" and that the eastern orthodox is a false religion. He then started questioning my very salvation bc reading church history and church fathers proves Christ isnt enough on his own. I'm glad the Lord allowed that convo, it was a test and an eye opening e experience, that's how I used to be...I'm so thankful for videos like this and a humble heart. This is the truth and the Lord will reveal it to the humble. God bless you sister
Please someone explain to me how the old Testament sacrificial system fits in? Why would God institute the killing of bulls, lambs and goats as offerings to himself to forgive sins...even in a temperal way...if it didn't mirror something??? What am I reading into the text?
What is the Roman law he refers to when talking about where the West got the idea for penal substitution? I’m unable to understand due to audio issues and I want to research this further. It sounds like he’s saying “The law of the newall”
Law of the Duel: in medieval battles, the "offended" royalty required one of equal position in society (another "royal") to atone for the offense...either by dying or winning the battle. This crept into the Franks' Institution through their archbishop of Canterbury, and like any secular idea, has replaced the spiritual understanding of the meaning of "ransom to the grave" which is used by our Apostolic fathers usually. This means that Christ voluntarily went into Death and Hades - and "imploded" the satanic hold there over OT saints held by death. Death had no hold over Christ our God since He is both human (by which He died) and Divine by which Nature He Rose again defeating Death and routing Satan. For the Christian following Christ, there is no death but a translation into Life eternal from life here when ended.
@@JudithMatta Thanks for the response!
To see Videos of our Channel: youtube.com/@JudithMatta?si=vM35I-HHZo3oJ5y-
Romans 8:3-4
Protestants don't believe Christ fulfilled some medieval Law of the Duel . I've never heard of that. They believe that he fulfilled the old testament law like Paul said.
Correction: Protestants don't REALIZE that they believe this anomaly: "God so LOVED the world that He gave His only Son so that those who believe could have everlasting Life"! Where is the "He paid the price of God's wrath, etc."??? in any Scriptures describing His ransom of Adam from Death (I Cor 15 read please). See www.romanity.org under Contents and then Frankish Church or Augustine articles by this Orthodox scholar and historian. More of our videos are available on this topic; please know that our Father have given His only Son for our salvation...not to "pay a price" of some evil idea that He is wrathful against us! He hates sin, not the sinner - and so gives us the path to Repentance to become adopted children of His through Christ. M. Irene Orthodox Christian Mission Information Center POBox 2395 S.Maria CA 93457
@@JudithMattaJohn 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Now I'm not trying to be argumentative, but am truly trying to understand how the Orthodox church interprets such scriptures. There are several scriptures that talk about the wrath of God. I am a Protestant who is researching church history and I am very intrigued by the wealth of knowledge and biblical understanding that your tradition brings. I am coming to an understanding that we will get a fuller understanding of scripture if we study church history and tradition. So please point me in the direction of any historical texts that could help me better interpret these verses.
Please be welcomed to visit our channel: th-cam.com/channels/53gb9xym8zR57vd_H4ztwQ.html
Comment answering to God as being a "fair" God! You are not Christian much less Orthodox Christian whoever says that! God's Mercy is the ONLY WAY we are saved; we are all guilty of sin and so the "justice" of God would come to bear. EXCEPT the judicial code is created by Man not God: God is ALWAYS MERCY and we ask for that mercy with the "Jesus Prayer" hourly! Ask the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness if you think this; you have dismissed His Mercy for a gavel and sentence mitigated. Please be a Christian asking for the Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ! NEVER "justice".
We either receive mercy, justice, or non-justice.
Mark 2:1-12
God is merciful. God does not have to be merciful and forgive if a debt is paid.
Penal Substitution is the very foundation of the Reformation belief in having our sins imputed to innocent sinless Christ and Christ's righteousness imputed to sinful us.
This is unjust because,
"Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent- the Lord detests them both!"
Proverbs. 17:15
Jesus is truly God and truly man, but ONLY ONE PERSON!
No Bible verse says GOD, the First Person of the Trinity pours out His wrath, damns, cuts off, and CURSES GOD His Son, and imputes or transfers our sins to The Second Person of the Trinity while on the cross making Jesus a sinner to pay a debt.
This separates the Persons of Eternal Trinity and so tears apart the very being of God into tri-theism.
Ontologically
"God is love!" 1 John 4:8
"No one speaking by the Spirit of God can say, "Jesus is accursed!"
1 Corinthians 12:3
Jesus says,
"I am in the Father and the Father is in me!"
John 14:11
The Eastern Orthodox belief for 2000 years,
God willingly (John 10:17-18) and in love (1 John 4:8) became a man in the person of Jesus Christ, lived a sinless life, fulfilled the law, and died on our behalf on a cross to go into Hades to set the captives free (1 Peter 3:18-20), and rose bodily from the grave
(1 Corinthians 15:17) thereby defeating and conquering death, sin, and the devil. (Hebrews 2:14-15; 1 John 3:8)
"Since the children have flesh and blood, Jesus too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death-that is, the devil- and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death!"
Hebrews 2:14-15
"You murdered Jesus the Creator of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. . . . But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.
REPENT, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord!"
Acts 3:15, 18-19
"Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will GRANT them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will!"
2 Timothy 2:25-26
When we REPENT,
by turning from sin and receiving Jesus Christ, we are forgiven and cleansed of sin and are credited as righteous because we are made righteous by being in union with Christ and receive the Holy Spirit!
(Romans 4:5, 7; Galatians 2:20)
An alien mere legal declaration of righteousness by imputation without transformation is a legal fiction.
If Jesus was made a sinner to pay a debt then Jesus should be in hell!
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness!"
1 John 1:9
So we are made righteous!
If a debt is paid, there is no need for forgiveness!
"God was IN Christ reconciling the world to himself!"
2 Corinthians 5:19
God was not pouring out wrath on His Son!
JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN!
JESUS CHRIST CONQUERS!
IC XC NIKA
God doesn't need to forgive except that WE need to ask (and therefore acknowledge) and RECEIVE FORGIVENESS for our daily sins, knowing the weakness of our Adamic nature and relying on His heart of Mercy for sinners. Luke 5:81 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.." Change of heart and mind so that we follow the Lord Jesus Christ and become His likeness as well as His Image! We are in need personally, for that for which He openly washed away with His Blood on the Cross. Now we apply it to our hearts for healing from our personal sinning. God keep us close in this repentance we pray!
@JudithMatta Again, I am not trying to be argumentative but am truly trying to understand the Orthodox interpretation of scripture. Can someone explain what these verses mean?
Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The CHASTISEMENT for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD HAS LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.......
10 Yet it PLEASED THE LORD TO BRUISE HIM;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Gal. 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, BEING MADE A CURSE FOR US (for it is written, “Cursed is every one who hangeth on a tree”),
This verse in Isaiah says that it pleased the Lord to bruise Him and that He laid the iniquity of us all on Him. The Galatians verse clearly states that Christ became a curse for us. How should we see these verses?
@@rh10033 Idol Killer, Warren McGrew's ministry, and Paul Vendredi have an amazing series on TH-cam exposing the inconsistencies within penal substitutionary teaching of the redemptive work of Christ.
The idea that "god died on the Cross" is a canard appearing in seminary coffee shops... heard it there. Rationalism cannot see the interaction ("symphonia") without confusion (as St Athanasius explained) between Divine Nature and the addition to this Unchanged Divinity, of His Human Nature taken from the Virgin. Read St Athanasius "On the Incarnation"... delving through your confusions would take a willing listener on your part, and more time than I have, on my own part. Yes the Divine Nature raised Christ's Humanity from the dead, and us with Him. He is God, we are adopted sons in this divinized Humanity. His Humanity allowed Him to act in obedience to the Father as Man on our behalf, therefore we defeat the Enemy through Him (by baptismal immersion). Then, in our Chrismation, we celebrate the Resurrection of our Humanity in the Holy Spirit given by Christ to us to SEAL the work of the Death of the old Adam. Please read and study the Fathers more, asking the Holy Spirit to dispel your confusion... please we pray!
Abraham was counted as righteous because of his faith correct?
He kmowing and trusting in God who would provide the sacrifice, so this is a typology of Christ or foreshadowing in the Old Testament
And sorry that was a question 😅🙏
Abraham righteous by Faith and trust in God: we are all children of Abraham through Faith in Christ our God! And Abraham's "bosom" is the resting place for the saints until the 2nd coming of Christ Jesus in Glory! His life reflects our pilgrimage to Christ, the "Promised Land" of milk and honey... so much in the Angels visiting him and Sarah foretelling his son, and this Icon is used by Orthodox Christians as the best Icon of the Holy Trinity, One in Nature and 3 in Persons with individual garments. Blessings with loving prayer, M Irene
@@JudithMatta Thank you for replying and for the explanation, I am still a pretty young Christian and had to work through alot of bad doctrine🙏
This man speaks truth in a sense but also seems to have lost all balance on the severity of evil (as if supporting abortion politics is acceptable or just doesn’t matter). Seems to be a trend with the Greeks over the Russians, Ukrainians, Antiochians etc.
Vladyka is very STRONG as a good Orthodox Bishop, against all evil: Abortion in particular, sexual sin, and exalts Christ the God-Man as trained himself in the Serbian tradition of St Justin Popovich. If you would like his writings, our Mission gives booklets from his monastery on many topics of interest to Christian Believers.
@@JudithMattaThank you for clarifying this! I was wondering this myself.
Paul literally calls it an atonement though?
No actually the word is "expiation": Blessed Theophylact comments that this word reminds the Jews that Christ is the final passover - the meaning has nothing to do with the medieval understanding of Christ "paying off" His Father Who was somehow offended ..etc. Many times the heretics use correct words but change the definitions to suit their philosophies. Blessings, M Irene
@@JudithMatta He literally says "in his justice he left the previously unpunished sins because he would take the punishment."
@@bizantiumx3991
Read St John Chrysostom's homilies on this verse (and chapter and the whole book). He was taught by Saint Paul himself.