Heroes who Sinned; Prometheus, Amirani and Jesus
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2023
- Some heroes do things that the chief God doesn't approve of, despite being popular amongst the people. The stories are found within the myths of the "Chained Heroes", stories such as Prometheus, stories that have a darker side than most realize.
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► References
“Iran and the Caucasus” Journal. Brill.
Movsaēs Xorenac‘i, Patmut‘iwn Hayoc‘, ed. M. Abełean and S. Yarut‘iwnean, Tiflis, 1913; repr., New York, 1981; Yerevan, 1991 (with additional collations of MSS by A. B. Sargsean).
![[TH]FFWS SEA Spring 2024 Point Rush - Day 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uTzfNlXO9bg/mqdefault.jpg)
There are also so many ties to the story of Loki. Loki starts out as a trickster hero who uses his skills for the good of the Asir. But he turns darker and darker and is eventually chained beneath the World Tree (Chthonic) with his son the wolf Fenrir, while a dragon drips caustic spit onto him (Torture). When finally released Ragnarok, the End of the World begins.
That's like the phone angels that are chained in darkness in a cave under the Euphrates River Egypt. A lot of tree and Egyptian mythological stories biblical story have a lot in common
Thank you so much for this. You have an amazing mind. Can it also be linked to Odin? Hanging on Yggdrasil... losing the eye... the spear in his side, as with christ, or the beak of the eagle in the side of Prometheus or the beak of the raven in the side of Mher? Odin is very much associated with ravens. And, as you say, the twin motif can be seen here too...(one good, one trickster) just shifted to Odin's sons. ...Or am I seeing things that aren't connected at all? Keep up the good work mate. I look forward to every vid
@@mattconnor671
You're spot on.
0:00: 🔗 The myth of the chained hero is a fascinating motif found in various cultures, with the Greek myth of Prometheus being one of the most well-known examples.
5:30: 🔥 Zeus punishes humans by taking away their ability to make fire, but Prometheus helps them regain it by giving them burning fennel.
11:17: 🐉 Summary: This text discusses different myths involving dragons and their punishments.
17:15: ❤ Darjelani falls in love with the goddess Dali at first sight and spends the night with her in a cave.
22:28: 👁 The sons threaten to burn their mother's chest to find out the true story of their father's missing eye.
28:12: 🗡 Amirani stabs the developer after hearing a song from the ogre's belly.
33:26: 😢 Amirani falls in love with Ketu but is faced with opposition from her father and his armies.
38:48: 🗺 The origin of the myth of Prometheus in the Caucasus region is uncertain, but it likely dates back at least 3,000 years.
44:13: 🌍 The motif of being swallowed by a creature is found in various ancient cultures, including Georgian folklore.
49:39: 🐂 The myth of Amadani involves his birth, being placed in different animal bodies, and being abandoned by a source or the sea.
55:25: 🔍 The myth of Prometheus and its similarities with other myths like Amirani and Jesus suggest a common origin in ancient narratives about the struggle between life and order.
Recap by Tammy AI
Thank you for you edit ❤
❤ omg omg omg ❤ I can't believe you are taking about a Georgian myth!
I've been watching your channel, loving how you trace the oldest myths and wondering how they compare to the myths of my country, Georgia. I even strated doing my own research about it, inspired by your videos. This video is like my dream come true ❤
It would be good to see more videos on Georgian mythology. It’s surprisingly well preserved and fascinating to no end!
It's so good to hear how his stories inspire and how this Georgian one especially makes you feel! Thanks for sharing. Mario SirSirReal Villarreal.
Exciting! I love being inspired by creativity. Congratulations! 🤩
Early Christian creeds contemporaneous with the Apostles include a confession of the resurrection of Christ. As such, the bodily resurrection of the dead in fact predates much of the New Testament. It is one of the earliest Christian beliefs of which we have a historical record.
Isn't the resurrection of the dead in messianic times a jewish belief anyway? It's obvious that early christians believed it
@@FerrariusChristi - Correct. Look around on TH-cam for material by N. T. Wright. He is an expert on Judaism and Christianity in the first centuries. The idea of the resurrection of the dead at the end of time was widespread in 2st-century Judaism. What was different about Christianity was the assertion that the Messiah would be the first to be resurrected, leading the way, so to speak.
@@earlwajenberg733 yes and of course the inclusion of the Gentiles amongst the resurrected. But as you all state, the Scripture is clear that resurrection was always part of the Judeo-Christian worldview. 1 Corinthians 15 is one of the greatest proofs of the Christian faith with a creed that dates to possibly as early as only 15 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
@@FerrariusChristi
Yes. Literal resurrection.
It's why the gospel says people rose from the dead after christ came back.
It must have been so common an event to go unmentioned by anyone else though
..
I found this channel by accident.
I was amazed at how high quality the information was presented here.
And I can recommend it even to those who do not understand English, since there are accurate subtitles in almost any language.
Great treasure.
However, sometimes dev is translated as "developer" or "dove" in Ukrainian or Russian versions. It is funny.
Thank you so much for your kind words of recognition, they are appreciated.
There's a fair amount here about hair. Cutting off hair takes away power. How common is that?
Also the braid of the Dev being used to get to the princess in the tower put me in mind of a jumbled story of Rapunzel.
Well spotted, and I will make a video in the future about this and so I won’t give away any spoilers now.
Hair today 😁 gone tomorrow 😭!
And of course the biblical story of Samson and Delilah
It reminded me of the Judeo-Christian story of Samson. Probably came from a Canaanite myth.
yes exactly!!!!
I love that you kept saying “heroic deeds” and I kept thinking “this guy doesn’t seem to be helping anyone” because it’s a good reminder that different cultures had different standards of heroism & what it means to be a hero
I can't help but link this "chained hero" myth with Loki from the norse mythology. Although he is not exactly a hero, he is most definitely a trickster, and was also bound down and when freed will bring about the end of the world (ragnarok).
Hah, yeah I kept thinking “ what a jerk”. An interesting reminder that being a hero doesn’t necessarily mean being a decent person
What does this say about the people who came up with these stories? The same goes for the Old Testament, with a god who is the most unpleasant character in all fiction. Clearly a lot of men throughout history valued being a complete bastard more than being kind and helpful.
I've noticed that too, Gilgamesh was the OG jerk/hero, and seems many of the Greek demigods who perform heroic deeds do so for personal gain and/or also do cruel things companions and innocents in the stories. Mebe some ancients accepted some thugish qualities in their heroes.
The term hero in Antiquity had no connotation of ethics. It described individuals with superhuman ability in connection with a personality or drive that was totally self-absorbed in its own assertion or expression, much like gods. The affiliation with ethics comes from Abrahamic religions, with its strong emphasis on ethics, projecting back onto a term with a very different meaning than in modern parlance.
Amirani losing an eye to eventually see even better, and then be bounds makes me wonder if this also contributed to the story arc for Odin's quest for wisdom.
All the aforementioned tales are but shadows of the real story
"huurr durrr Odin came from other cultures and peoples!"
@@stowlicters8362 Not related to the question. Incorporating stories across region was one of the major points in this video.
@@johnsteiner3417 you're implication is that such stories added onto or even made other stories, again "hurrr duuuurrrrr Odin came from other cultures and traditions".
@@stowlicters8362 Okay, so you're still missing my point. I'm not saying Odin came from the Georgian culture. I'm saying the aspect of losing an eye but getting better sight for it and then being bound in some way might've been added to Odin's story and I was asking if that was possible.
It's interesting because the gnomes and dwarves myths deal with caves, underworld, cycles of the earth too. It may sound campy, but I would really like to know if, this being the haunting season, if any if the popular Halloween creatures feature into these ancient myths and how.
There's a link between the Irish Halloween (Samhain) and cattle being stolen by a goddess of slaughter called the Morrigan and taken into the cave of Cruachan (Samhain was when the ancient Irish gathered cattle to be slaughtered). Cattle-raiding myths are often linked with caves and also with the sun. I don't know if this is why cave-dwelling mythical creatures like trolls and dwarves sometimes turn to stone when exposed to the sun.
I had not been aware of the trickster aspect of the Prometheus character. I had read as a child the story of prometheus bringing knowledge of fire to humans and I had thought he and Jesus had that in common as kind of a son of a God who did stuff for humans and was punished for it.
Also though a parallel to the serpent bringing knowledge to people so there's your trickster I guess. And he was also punished.
The trickster aspect as well as the connection to fire also brings him a bit in line with Loki when you think about it. And if we also consider that the Greek gods are…often portrayed in inverse ways (every single major god is a petty bastard/bitch except for the ones associated with actual negative spheres like Hades), we can sort of mental gymnastic a connection of chaotic figures doing some good things in spite of themselves (and reminder that Loki is also eventually chained up and tortured just like Prometheus)
@@Fuk99999 Yeah. Also notice how Amirani was bound to the same fetter which bound a mythical hound, while Loki has a wolf son, Fenrir, who is likewise bound until Ragnarok. If Loki is identical to Lodurr, as at least some Icelandic literature suggests, then he can also be linked with the creation of humans just as Prometheus is.
Trickster god, chained up and regularly tortured ... I can't help thinking of Loki. He also stole the hair of Sif. And Iamani giving an eye to a powerful creature, sounds a bit like Odin, even though they got two very different things out of it. (Edit: I can see that Jon already replied to similar comments, noting that he is considering a video on trickster gods.)
Yes, I have replied to other comments, for Loki is definitely a chained hero too.
The Biblical story that most resembles Amirani's saga is the story of Samson. At least these similarities exist between the two: the hero in question is a strongman who travels around beating up and killing huge amounts of people/creatures; cutting someone's hair causes their death; the hero has an unhappy ending, ending up getting chained to a pillar; the hero's strenght is thanks to his mother, resulting either from her own miraculous nature or from a prayer said by her.
My man should start a sideproject on story telling. I bet a podcast or maybe even audio book of myths and stories on your voice would be a real success.
Something is happening in that space next year, when I’ll have more time.
I love your videos, I find myself waiting for them excitedly. Thank you for being such a great content creator.
Thank you for your kind words.
Thank you infinitely for sharing all of this. Your videos have shown me much more than words can describe. Seriously.
And thank you so much for watching and enjoying what I do.
I thought I was the N1 scholar of Amirani and here I listen to a version with elements I've never heard before 😮
Great job in covering the myth. And good thing I still have a version to cover in the future with added elements. Every region in Georgia has its own unique version, so I could tell and retell this epic many times over.
Few things to note.
In most versions devi and dragons are distinct, first amirani battles devi King, then 3 gveleshapi dragons (black white and red) each brother takes on 1 and the black servant swallows Amirani. Then the serpent goes to her mother Veshap Leviathan and story goes as you told.
Also in most stories Amirani can't lift the dead hero's leg, which sents him into existential crisis about mortality and that's why he battles the god.
Oh yea! Very important. Most versions Amirani directly challenges God to a duel, God asks him to lift his pole, he fails so he is later chained to that pole. Dragon comes to avenge his side but "saint George" turns the dragon into stone. And that's where the Caucasus mountains come from.
Well, there are tons more variations to cover, and I'm very happy you brought it the attention this myth deserved.
One thing I'll disagree is that I don't think Amirani and Prometheus are that related. Son of dali is closer to Gilgamesh or Heracles to me than God of foresight (which he has none). They just share the same jail.
Also I believe Amirani myth is much older, as the main background players are the Bronze age Forge Priests which Amirani swore to kill, unfortunate for me I guess.
The story unfortunately haven't been written down until the 9th century a.c. but there are many art depictions we can assume are from that tale, and unlike most others, Georgian mythic world is still active and practiced in the high mountains, so it's a living faith.
Also Also, Amirani being a Godson of the chief God is not just a fluke, the biggest heroic epic of Georgia are about the 3000 heavenly warriors known as Godsons, who are godchildren of Morige, chief God of order.
Thanks for covering this story. Cheers!
Thank you for all your thoughts and for watching.
@@Crecganford thank you for a great video
My understanding is that the original christian motif for resurrection, predating the crucifixion/cross representation, was the image of Jonah emerging from the whale as can be seen in early christian art such as is found in the catacombs around Rome. I knew of this symbolic connection but never thought of how they related to these other and older myths. Thanks for such a compelling presentation as always. : )
It makes sense that they simply replaced one demi god for another as their world view changed.
Interestingly, Jonah is swallowed after he sets sail from Joppa (now the port of Tel Aviv), while in Roman times Joppa was the place the princess Andromeda was chained as a sacrifice to a sea monster until she was rescued by Perseus. This suggests that even in those times there was some recognition that there were common motifs to be found between all these stories.
Actually Jonah happened before Jesus. It was showing and said in the way for Jesus to come. They both happened
@@stevenhair3250 That is what he said. It is what predating means!?
There's a Jewish canonical story about Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai (1-2 century). It tells that when he exited the cave in which he hid from the Romans for 12 years, he burned whatever he looked at out of critical wrath.
God said: "Do you intend to destroy my world? Get back into the cave!". He left the cave again after 12 months with more compassion and appreciation of man.
Allegorical for sure.
I shall look that up, and see if it appears in the Mythology Database as that sounds like an interesting story.
Cool story 😁!
Appreciation of man? I'm sure he was just more appreciative of his fellow hebrews
Sounds about right lol@@stowlicters8362
Another informative and entertaining discussion and sharing of Myths!!!❤❤❤❤❤❤
Perfect timing, Jon! A fresh video and a cup of coffee to start the day - let's go!
Great content as always, lots of depth of our ancestors and their mental framework of reality and beyond.. always appreciate your videos Mr.White.
Great as always! Thank you for all your work and dedication
Thank you too, for watching and your support.
Those years long (or eternal) punishments were incredibly tortuous! That Jesus fellow only had a bad weekend by comparison
When a Christian asks me about accepting Jesus as my lord and saviour as he sacrificed himself for my sins.
I bring up the parallel between that idea and Prometheus, who suffered and sacrificed himself for humanity
I always thought there was more of a parallel between lucifer and Prometheus as lucifer was the light bringer just as Prometheus brought us fire and both experienced a gods wrath by rebelling.
Well Jesus kind of brings down a sort of fire, and a burning heart is part of the Catholic canon. They are also pierced at the side, and are punished. Jesus is punished so the reward can be attained, while Prometheus was punished because the reward was attained.
He has parallels with both Jesus and Lucifer.
Apparently there were early Christians with the name Lucifer and the story comes from some mistranslation in the bible. I am unsure about that , but most of the story I've heard about Lucifer comes from paradise lost and I haven't seen much about him in the bible
Kind of a weak comparison though. Jesus specifically draws from an existing theology to justify his sacrifice while Prometheus suffering was not catalyst to humans receiving favor.
There's no use trying to side step reality. Jesus Christ who actually died for you and the Prometheus myth are not the same.
Great video as always, but I gotta say the lighting setup is also beautiful!
Thank you, its the first time I’ve made a video with that set up and so I predicate someone noticing.
Dear Sir,
Mr.Creaganford I am supremely impressed by your dedication and diligence, jolly good form old bean. May the blessings of the Lord be through and to all. ❤❤❤
Thanks Jon, pleasure to take in your content as always mate. You always put out such good stuff, I love your videos ❤
"Zombie Jesus" 😁
Glad I'm not the only one who wrote an undead Jesus into a story.
Another profoundly interesting and informative video, most educational. Have a great day Jon and please continue your QUALITY work!😊
What do you think about people saying that Jesus is a unique hero figure that does not share similarities with those who came before him? I disagree with their conclusion, but I do see Jesus as the latest and greatest iteration of this same archetype.
All of the motifs associated with Jesus are found in earlier tales.
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*Miracles and Apotheosis in the Ancient Mediterranean World*
*"It should first be noted that miracle stories are not uncommon in the literature of this period.* Ancient people believed in a world permeated by the supernatural and readily accepted stories of miracles and believed in stories of visions and visitors from the world of the divine all the time. *Even very sober and sometimes sceptical historians like Tacitus will pass on accounts of miracles that he clearly accepts and expects his audience to believe as historical.*
So when we read stories of how the emperor Augustus was *miraculously conceived by the god Apollo,* or how his birth was *presaged by a new star in the heavens,* or how Julius Caesar was seen *ascending into the heaven* after his death or how Vespasian *healed lame and blind people* who asked him for a miracle, we accept that these stories represent the kinds of things ancient people genuinely believed about great men. Or we accept that they are at least told to indicate that the man in question was great. *What we don't do is accept that simply because people believed these stories they must mean that they really happened.*
And this is even when the stories are presented to us by a very careful historian and given to us as verified fact. Take Tacitus' account of the miracles of the emperor Vespasian:
"In the months during which Vespasian was waiting at Alexandria for the periodical return of the summer gales and settled weather at sea, many wonders occurred which seemed to point him out as the object of the favour of heaven and of the partiality of the Gods. One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. This he did by the advice of the God Serapis, whom this nation, devoted as it is to many superstitions, worships more than any other divinity. .... And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required. *The hand was instantly restored to its use, and the light of day again shone upon the blind. Persons actually present attest both facts, even now when nothing is to be gained by falsehood."* (Histories, IV, 81)
Tacitus was closely connected to the court of Vespasian's sons and successors, Titus and Domitian, and so in a position to know the "persons actually present" and to consult them long after Vespasian's death "when nothing is to be gained by falsehood". He was also a very careful historian who scorned those who took rumour and stories as fact without checking them against sources and eye witnesses and who condemned those who "catch eagerly at wild and improbable rumours in preference to genuine history" (Annals, IV,11).
*Despite this, I don't know anyone who would read the account above and conclude that the emperor really had magical healing powers and genuinely used his supernatural abilities to heal people.* The fact that even a judicious and often sceptical analyst like Tacitus accepted this story shows us just how readily people in the ancient world accepted claims of the miraculous.
*One form of miracle that was widely believed in was the idea of apotheosis, where a great man is physically taken up in to the heavens and raised to divine status.* It was claimed that Romulus, the founder of Rome, underwent this process and *later appeared to his friend Julius Proculus to declare his new celestial status.* The same claim was made about Julius Caesar and Augustus, *with supposed witnesses observing their ascent into the heavenly realm.* Lucian's satire The Passing of Peregrinus includes his scorn for the claim that the philosopher was *taken up into the celestial realm and was later seen walking around on earth after his death.* The Chariton novel Callirhoe has its hero Chaereas visiting the tomb of his recently dead wife, saying he *"arrived at the tomb at daybreak"* where he *"found the stones removed and the entrance open. At that he took fright."* Others are afraid to enter the tomb, but Chaereas goes in and finds his wife's *body missing* and concludes she has been *taken up by the gods."*
If you want to read how the resurrection legend grew over time, read the below article by Tim O'Neill who is a former Christian and has been studying the scholarship for over 25 years.
*Answer*
What-evidence-is-there-for-Jesus-Christs-death-burial-and-resurrection/answer/Tim-ONeill-1 - Quora
You can also read the below article by a former Christian apologist on how he agrees with the mainstream scholarship that Jesus was a failed apocalyptic prophet.
*"ex-apologist: On One of the Main Reasons Why I Think Christianity is False (Reposted)"*
Also, how cognitive dissonance possibly explains early Christianity.
*“The Rationalization Hypothesis: Is a Vision of Jesus Necessary for the Rise of the Resurrection Belief?”* - by Kris Komarnitsky | Κέλσος - Wordpress
*"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history? -- by Dr Steven DiMattei"*
*"How Did The Gospel Writers Know? - The Doston Jones Blog"*
*"Yes, the Four Gospels Were Originally Anonymous: Part 1 - The Doston Jones Blog"*
*"Are Stories in the Bible Influenced by Popular Greco-Roman Literature? - The Doston Jones Blog"*
*"Gospels Not Written By Matthew, Mark, Luke or John - The Church Of Truth"*
*"February 2015 - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* - Isaiah 53
*"Jesus and the Messianic Prophecies - Did the Old Testament Point to Jesus? - The Bart Ehrman Blog"*
*"Jesus did not fulfill any messianic prophecies - Reductio Ad Absalom"*
*"Jesus Was Not the Only “Prophet” to Predict the Destruction of the Temple - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
Unfortunately there was widespread destruction of non-Christian literature carried out by Christians for centuries that might have shed more light upon the relationship between the Christ-story and these mythical figures simply to preserve that uniqueness.
@@shanegooding4839Some of what you say it's true. There was erasing of 'pagan' myths etc. But it's even more common to christianise them. Also for the fathers of church all of these myths had some form of prefiguration and 'imperfect' metaphors of the Christ character. And by the way, how do you think we have written testimonials of these myths if not by monks or church educated people, even if transformed and filtered by the beliefs at the time? It would be unwise to see it only in a narrow perspective.
Just replaying Immortals: Fenyx Rising, and the commentary between Prometheus and Zeus narrating is so spot on and hilarious. Like some devs really did their research for dialogue here.
Thank you for these videos… so informative and interesting x
Besides Loki/Odin/Samson as others mentioned, the birth also reminds me of Dionysus and his older form
You told us your name! How do you know that we are not fairies and will use it against you? :) Thanks for the story time.
🤫 starts setting a fairy circle
Whats in a name?
Good one, but he's lucky. His name is pretty common. And gods aren't necessarily meticulous. hehehe
I believe faeries are inherently good and only got a bad rap because they give those who ill treat them, or try to, their just desserts. Or those that damage or destroy parts of Mother Nature they attack. But will actually help good hearted people. But that's just my opinion. But I also believe no man knows or is allowed to know, The True Name of God... What a beautiful picture of a Faerie Princess, Thank you! Mario
@MarekMirocha what's in a name?
letters
😁
Sweet I didn't realize u was releasing this today. Sweet something really worth watching ty Jon ❤❤😊gratz I see the subscription thing 😊😊😊
Hailsa Prometheus
Amazing work as always.
Excellent video Jon! I love all your videos! Very thorough and incredibly interesting content
Thank you.
What a marvelous video, as usual. Thank you so much for such an outstanding work.
Thank you for your kind words.
18:24 I've always loved the motif of hair cutting and loss of power
It's clear that there was some Christian influence in the version of the myth of Amirani. Initially he probably didn't swear in "Christ's name", but probably in the name of the gods or the local supreme god. Also, at the end the god that tied Amirani up wouldn't have been the.....Judeo-Christian god, but the local supreme god.
Your narration skills are improving big time! I can hear the hand gestures nicely modulating your timing and tone.
Thank you, I'm making a concerted effort to slow down and pronounce more clearly.
@@Crecganfordyou're doing great. Watch out for the cosmic. hunt. Lol
The good piece of meat within an ox's stomach. Very good. The bones of a bull covered in glistening fat are also very good though! If you slow cook that with garlic and onions and they're a delicious treat. Ancient humans who wrote these myths must have not thought that way about bones though. 😂 These myths are metaphorical and beautiful.
Bones contain marrow. Humans have been eating such for millions of years. Delicious indeed
Very informative and well narrated, looking forward to more OJ.👍👍
Cheers Mickey, hope you're well.
great one
The necessity for Greeks to place the hero in Caucasus region strengthens the Caucasus origin theory.
I heard somewhere that Prometheus had red hair symbolizing fire and that his children and descendants also had red hair but it was only one source and I couldn’t find any other information. Do you know anymore about it?
Red hair/fire is a stereotype of trickster gods, and so this can happen as myths evolve.
Please consider doing a video on red hair!
@@elizabethdavis1696 Interesting. I rather think that the red hair and giant size of these 'original gods' points us to the ancient region of Tartaria in Russia. I've read that this region had people of large size and an advanced civilisation, and over time they tried to introduce their knowledge to the surrounding societies, becoming like an elite over them. I think they were the ancient rulers of the land of Siberia, before the Moscovites took over Russia in more modern times and erased this history (old maps show settlements all over Siberia where today are just forests ... ). I met someone whose ancesters came from near the region, and they had red hair and family members who were 7 feet tall.
So perhaps the red-haired giant 'gods' of the early Bronze Age myths were real. Afterall, all we are talking about is that there existed a race of people who developed advanced knowledge (fire-making, domestic fruit trees, agriculture etc.) before the rest of the world, and this disparity led to notions and legends of 'gods.' Around the world, people have found huge skeletons of red-haired 'giants' (7 or 8 feet tall), most of which were removed to the Smithsonian Museum and never heard of again. Although these discoveries have been reported endless times by the local press, they have all been officially denied by academics today ... So Jon, please research Tartaria !!
I see where the idea of The Subtle Knife in Pullman's novels came from...
The liver is the only human organ which can regrow under the right circumstances. People can donate part or half their liver and each will grow into a whole part. If any story sounds true....
Amazing! 😊
In Georgia we have old god of sun and sky - Lile , this is old name of sun. Kviria - morning star. we have Ambri - goliath associated with farming , godess - Nana, mother of all gods and Barbale - fertility and motherhood. god of moon - givargi. (george) . some times, name changes, but idea is the same. Tuta - it is Moon - mtovare and month - tve.
Loke was chained up Odin lost an eye I have thought about Odin and his horse Sleipner do you think it can be a connection to the Scytes?
It's curious that you didn't mention Norse myths in this video. Loki seems to have many aspects of the chained hero. He's a trickster figure who angers Odin, the Allfather, and then is punishment by being "chained" up with the entrails of his sons and tortured by having snake venom poured in his eyes. It even includes the concept of the world ending with his escape, since he's supposed to be freed during Ragnarok. I also couldn't help but notice that the map at 38:36 has one of its markers in the Nordic region. Just some thoughts I had while watching.
If I had this video would have been 2 hours long, and so instead I will make a separate video on Trickster gods, using this video as a useful piece of background context.
Seems to make a little sense because early man didn't have chains, and so to be bound up in 'entrials' is a little closer to the reality of a world without metals.
Yeah, and any of these other "chained figures who would destroy the world if released" having common influence with Loki and/or Fenrir would seem to refute the idea of Ragnarok being post-Christianization addition to Norse myth.
3:10 okay let's get a KKC video now lol
Jesus is not a sinner hes a scapegoat. Hes punished in the place of others. And we share in this ritual through communion
His own father considered him a sinner.
@@bjarkiengelssonhis father is a cosmic sadist.
Barabbas was the scapegoat. Jesus was the sacrifice. "[Aaron] is to take the two goats and present them before the lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. He is to cast lots for the two goats-one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat." (NIV, Leviticus 16:7-10)
Christianity is so strange
There is even a motif like this about Zeus, in which Typhon cuts out his sinews and puts him in a bag which he hides in a cave on Mount Cassius.
Yes, once you start understanding the motifs they pop up everywhere.
Born in a hospital ✅
Banning oneself from caves ✅
Mum: "The ward you were born on was called 'Cave'"
ARGH!
I love your content do much. You are a treasure to society
Thank you so much.
Thank you very much
The association of hair and women, strength or life symbol is interesting. In the story of Samson, the hair association is transferred to him. In stories like Ripuntzle (forgive spelling) we see the hair motif. The cosmic ladder of hair allows the hero to climb the tower (tree of life symbol?) to gain the generative item (woman). The evil woman cuts off the hair of the younger woman; the old season is jealous of the new season (winter/spring)...The associations go on and on and transfer and mix and match.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support, it is very much appreicated.
That was wonderful.
This is epic! ❤❤❤
Thanks Derek!
💯
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Brilliant.
Interesting *pre* in Albanian means to cut something but is also used for betrayal, and he sure "betrayed" the gods when he stole the fire from the gods. We also have the cult of fire that has survived in our culture for centuries. I love this story since I see it as the first documented information about the existence of AI or at the very least the robots since the Eagle that punished Prometheus is robotic and we can say Pandora herself was some sort of artificial intelligence created especially hence Prometheus warns his brother. Love your content.
Thank you for sharing that, most interesting.
@@Crecganford I was recently researching the origin of the word 'private.' I think this explains both alternatives for 'Pro' metheus ('before' or 'thief') and the Albanian meaning of cutting too. So, from what I read, 'pri' originally meant 'in front of' and all the other meanings derive from this. 'In front of' came to mean 'in front and separate from' (like 'my suit of armour is on the ground in front of me, rather than being on me'). This came to mean 'to separate from' ie. 'to deprive' or 'to rob/thief.' (And with 'wo' for 'person', 'pri-wo' or 'private' came to mean 'separate from people/the public', giving the meaning of 'private' today.)
Beautiful video! Insightful as always. I wanted to ask you what do you think is the most influential book youve read?
Or some of the most influential books**
Thank you, and a great question, there are so many amazing books, but for me, in terms of understanding mythology more, it was Bruce Lincoln’s Myth, Cosmos and Society, although the more recent Anatoly Lieberman’s Prayer and Laughter was also influential to my thinking. I’ll do a library tour in November, and watch that, I’ll try and point out a few more then.
@Crecganford thank you so much ill check them out!!
@@Crecganford is there any way that you know of to buy or read these books for free or cheap?
@@Crecganford Hi, please can you look at the book by Felice Vinci, "The Baltic Origins of Homers Epic Tales." He makes a fascinating case, going through many perspectives, that the Greek and Indian myths have their origins in northern Europe, ie. share a common origin of place and time with the Norse myths. He shows that the Bronze Age myths (the ancient 'Greeks' etc.) took place in northern Europe when the climate was much warmer than today. When the climate cooled about 2000BC, this resulted in the migration of these people & their myths, both southwards to the Mediterranean (becoming the Myceneans and later the classical Greeks) and eastwards to India, ie. forming the Indo-European culture. His work seems make sense and add a lot of substance to various lines of thought.
I would love to learn more about this
Wow, that was a lot! I think they forgot to transform themselves into swans, though...
Is it possible that Loki and his narratives were influenced by the Promethian narrative, thus their apparent shared roles in the creation of man and their imprisonments?
Indeed it is, and I will talk more about this soon.
Excellent, as usual. Just one thing if Prometheus is thief any idea on what Epimetheus might be?
A great question, and I will make a video about that in the future.
Jon,I almost didn't recognise you in the thumbnail with all that hair! xxx I love everything you do & could honestly listen to you reading the telephone directory 😆 🤣 😂 Google it kids.
Thank you for all your videos.
Have you ever watched the American Movie “Beastmaster”. I would love your thoughts on this from a PIE perspective. The peaceful village in the beginning brings to mind and visions of the Cucuteni Tripilio culture. While the beastmaster would be early Corded Ware and the bad guys maybe the Maykop or late D-D Culture.
Loki, Revan, The Monkey King...all chained up, and tortured...I have found more consistencies in these stories than differences. Why do we continue to hold theses things out as Myth rather than History?
I agree, these surely must be various versions of an original, true history.
I find it strange that it’s a hunter. The Bible stories make a huge deal about the character of people who are farmers and hunters, in favor of the farmers. Could this be the counter to those tales?
Maybe a story about how humans were hunter gathers, and gradually became farmers?
I would see it as people who constantly moved vrs people who settled in places.
I have made videos about this, videos about the Near East Creation Myth, how it migrated to Greece, and the War of Gods, all good videos to help understand this part of myth.
@@Crecganford Thank you. I will be sure to check them out.
Shelley subtitled 'Frankenstein' "the Modern Prometheus" - a reference to the fatally flawed, and tortured, maker of man.
Whats interesting is that this story chouldnt have existed b4 metal working. So any earlier story would have been bulit around ropes if it existed at all. Beit chains or nails.
But the trapped in a cave motif rather than chained to a post, could predate metal working.
'The earth was unable to hold him' reminds me of a popular saying in Romania... 'Cum il mai tine pamantul? ' - how\why is the earth still holding him? , and it is usually used when describing someone despicable, of very, very low morals or that has done some big wrong...
Minotaurus mother was Pasiphae, sister of Aeetis, king of Colchis - modern west Georgia . It 's seems to have connection with bull cult .
It would be interesting to find out what the original myth was and where it came from. ❤ seems like a few myths mixed up. A medley if you like. Good pub story for the bards. ❤❤❤❤
That's a funny comment! I think ALL scholars are trying to do exactly that ... but we can only work with what we have today, which is lots of different myths around Eurasia, with many tantalising commonalities pointing at a common origin and an original story. But how to work it out ??!
You've said you don't believe,I do .
You made a short that says a new paper places Indo European in the south of the caucuses and older. I am not sure if this is true. I think there is a Survive the Jive’s video that shows this to not be the case.
There is still much debate on this, certainly the PIE language seems to have had input from south of the Caucasus. But whilst there are many reasons why this could be true, there are still a few things that do not make sense if it did. I think the next few years will allow work to happen to give us confidence one way or the other.
I've grown so obsessed with comparative mythology lately ( you got me into it). My brain is going crazy finding these connections.
I've noticed similarities between prometheus and enki. Both making humans out of clay and giving them knowledge. Both warning the flood hero.
I was doubting myself at one point. Prometheus wasn't a god after all, but a titan, a different deposed kind of god. Enki was one of the annunaki, the gods that rule. Son of the sky father Anu. But then I found Prometheus's father's name, Iapetus. There you are again, Dyeus phter. If I look it up online, I find Iapetus meaning to pierce (with a spear). Sounds like something a thunder wielding skygod would do (did the name of the god became synonymous to the action of the god?, i.e. pulling an iapetus = piercing something with a spear).
Japhet, the son of noah, father of all europeans has also been linked with Iopetus. Wouldn't surprise me the writers of genesis had heard of the people of Dyeus phter/Iopetus/Japhet up north and wrote him into the Noah story as a human. Pure speculation, and I don't think I'm the first seeing this connection. Please tell me if I'm completely off the mark.
While I'm still at it being heretical: Prometheus = Lucifer = Enoch = Enki/Ea = Yah = Yam = Yahweh = Satanail from second Enoch = the snake from genesis, lord/prince of earth and water, the second son of the sky father, tricking the gods in favor of humanity and giving us knowledge, the god of Israel, which means struggling with god. Who's struggling? Enki/Ea/Yahweh, lord of shepherds, and his people. What god's he's struggling against? Mostly his brother, the mighty Enlil. Not saying one of these is necessarily the bad guy. The tricky second son struggler Jacob still hugged the mighty Esau in the end.
One non-sequitur- how can a tale or myth originating 3000 to 4000 years ago or even more - OR - even if it was first told in Greece and moved from there to the Caucasus around 8th century BCE - there is no possible way that Amirani could have made or broken promises in the name of Christ who had not yet lived on Earth?
As someone else pointed out, that bit must have been a later amendment, to make a pagan myth more acceptable to a Christianised audience.
Does Loki being chained in a cave also fit the myths you've discussed in this video?
He does... and I'll make a video about that in the future.
Thanks so much, this is great. Just thinking about the name 'Amirani.' Doesn't 'Amir' mean something like 'honourable', so this could be an honorific title. So perhaps his name is really Rani or Ani ? This reminds me of a character in Indian mythology, a goddess called Radha Rani who is known as the one who loves Krishna the best. Could this Caucasian story of Amirani somehow relate to the Indian myth/character, and the references to 'in the name of Christ' were originally referring to Krishna ??
I would love to learn more about this, and how it ties together with Achilles. Is the goddess of the hunt related to Artemis?
Question from a lay person here, but
Doesn't the myth of Loki being chained to a Rock as a punishment for the Baldr "debacle" and his subsequent unchaining as the start of Ragnarok also shares themes with some of those myths? I mean he is a trickster also, he was chained to a rock to suffer eternally as punishment. Although he isn't exactly a hero per se, wouldn't those be parallels as well?
Yes, well spotted. Loki would fall into this category too, but I will make a separate video about that.
Pleas do!
A comparison between Prometheus, bringer of fire, and Lucifer and Enlil (?) as givers of knowledge to mankind would have been very interesting!
"Inside that pilar there is a box" dear god... "there is more" No. (this is a tf2 joke)
Greek belief that the liver was the seat of blood, hence of courage. According to this belief, people who had no blood in their liver were meant to have no courage: for this reason they were considered as cowards or betrayers.
Interesting ... don't we call cowards 'lily livered' (ie. having a white liver)?
Jon, could you do an episode on Hamlet’s Mill by Santillana and von Dechend? I’m so curious what you think of their theory😲
It's been a long time since I read Hamlet's Mill, it was a tough read. But maybe one day, first I need to publish my own books.
Would you consider Lucifer, as he is known now, to be a chained hero? He defied god, presented humanity with a gift that had been forbidden by god, was punished by being chained in The Pit, and at some point will escape to rule the world for 1000 years before the ultimate end.
There certainly might be some influence there, but I would need to know Lucifer's stories origins to confirm this. Perhaps one day I'll consider producing a video about this.
Perhaps Lucifer has been ruling the world for the last 1000 years! It does seem that some corrupted god is behind the scenes acting out their unhappiness and orchestrating various perversions and a final global war to end things!
I hope this hasn't been mentioned before, if so, I'm sorry:
Greeks in the Caucasus and by that also their mythological Background and legends is well established. Going back to the iron age and maybe even beyond: early traders and colonies, exploits by Alexander the great, later Pontic Greeks fleeing to the Caucasus, and time again during the middle ages or under the Ottoman rule.
I hold it to be highly likely, that the motif of Prometheus and local legends got mixed up time and again over the centuries (or even millenia) and thus evolved, keeping the storyline ever up to date.
Amiran, Prometheus is a Georgian myth, Georgian people lived all over Europe when Indo-European speaking people came there, that is Semites. If you get to know the myth well, Amiran is chained to the Caucasus mountains, this is not a Greek myth, this myth is Georgian, because the Greeks also have this myth, this is because Georgian people lived there and the Greeks took it from them.
@@maiarostiashvili6489 That's what I was trying to say. It's Georgian by locale not by people.
And consecutive peoples moving into or across the region picked and mixed it up with their own legends and interpreted it anew.
It's been suggested by biblical scholars that the original ending of Mark ("...they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid") is meant to spur the hearer (or reader) to do the telling.
And it's OK to not believe any of it, but the NT doesn't describe a "zombie Jesus." It's hard to say what it describes, & seems like the authors don't quite know either, but not a zombie!
So in Amirani what gods did they call on before Christ? It seems the story is much older?
This is a real problem for us, cultures to the west of the Black Sea just didn’t write things down until Christianity came along, and this really prevents us with corrupt data on pre-Christian culture. And that is why I do what I do, to try and unravel the real myth, the origins of myth, from what we have.
So, Zeus is an angry piece of shit in every context. Got it.
Beautiful Astrological story
Also, perhaps a third similarity between Amirani and Christianity is the of denying Christ three times? Maybe that's just the Christianized version of the myth.
I recently heard another TH-camr say that they think the tale of jack and the beanstalk was from the story of David and the Goliath because of similarities your opinion please
No, it is much older.
It is retelling of an adventure of Odin and Loki when they visited a giant and stole his stuff.