A little offtopic; The speach by Bush "we will fight in the name of peaceˇ reminds me of that movie "Mars attacks!" by tim burton, there aliens scream "don't run! - we come in peace!" - while shooting and killing everyone :)
What? He invaded Kuwait because he thought the country was his, which ended up involving the US defending Kuwait, as they barely had a proper army. In other words; he attacked a defenseless country because Sadam thought they were stealing oil from Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war (which Sadam also started, by the way). Secondly, he was fooling around with the non-proliferation treaty, not letting the inspectors do their work, not destroying his biochemical and other weapons. Thirdly, he was knowingly harbouring gangsters and international terrorists (the country was RIDDEN with terrorist cells). And to finish on the darkest note; he was opressing, as well as gassing, killing the Kurds, an ethnic group within Iraq. He used the same gas agents and biological weapons as he did in the war against Iran. I understand you might be skeptical because of the results of the war, but Christ, what other reasons do you need? Is the invading of a sovereign country and the attempt at killing an entire ethnic group not enough for you?
@@jodawgsup bullshit..The United States equally has no right to invade a sovereign nation. The last two presidents of America, Obama and Trump, have both said it was a catastrophic blunder that has made the world less safe.
Surprises me that Zizek fails to mention the part when Batman tortures the Joker, this when the american people was being brainshed into accepting torture as a way of getting info from alleged "terrorists". It was very partial and not well seen by many at the time, specially with the fresh images of abugrahib in everyones mind.
Zizek is saying Batman, the cops, and Harvey are all lying in order to save the status quo of the corrupt system they (we) live in. Gordon at the end is perpetuating the lie. They have seen the corruption, but they have becoming part of the system as well. So nothing will change. Meanwhile the movie is saying "sometimes the lesser evil/sacrifices are necessary". Your claim is absurd, he doesn't need to denounce something so specific just because you have made a connection. That's on you.
@@dargkkast6469 Yes, You are correct..... Cool, just one thing... the part i'm taking about, (manufacturing consent for torture) at the time was propaganda, so it's goes beyond the lesser evil theme... Nolan is one of the top propaganda filmakers, just behind Steven Spielberg.
@@bernardodelatorre5243 it's just Nolan does this in other movies (portraying the police as central, holding the... moral? power). Some people like him think whatever the "forces of order" do, as long as it's not against the nation* (in the case of the movie, the cops should let batman kick the Joker's ass; in the case you speak of, the tortures). So my point is, your case is a specific one, but Nolan has always had a police fetish. And so Zizek treats this in a generic way. Did Nolan choose the scene for the specific case you are saying? I can't speak from him so if you think so keep doing it, no harm done after all xd 🤷🏼♂️.
He seems to contain it for the two "Pervert's guide" documentaries. But when he's in front of a live audience--of one or one thousand, the sniffing ramps up.
@@synsam12345 It's because you're mistaken and they are right. This clip is from A Pervert's Guide To Ideology. Generally speaking, when things seem confusing it's normally because you're confused. 😜
My friends still don't believe me when I tell them that the DK trilogy is a conservative film series. It seemed very obvious to me, esp. with the last movie.
It is very conservative. I didn't figure it out until the last movie either. But remember, Bruce Wayne is a billionaire savior of the little people of Gotham. Hard for that not to be conservative.
@@caspian3755 I don't disagree, at least, not entirely. But I think the weakness of the last film is that it loses that transparency. Whereas the Joker has all the most politically trenchant comments in the 2nd film; Bane is a typically inchoate, sadistic representative of a radicalism that has no real agenda other than vengeful destruction. The League of Shadows had a philosophically valid point when Liam Neeson ran it; but under Bane and what's her face, it is a puerile indulgence of the Family Romance cum mass destruction.
@@davidc.2878 he isn’t savior tho. I mean he saved them from a bomb but people are still suffering. Crime still exists, with lots of poverty and corruption. Bane in the dark Knight rises tried to fix that but Batman stopped him.
The difference is between the Noble lie of Plato/Batman, and that of the Bush administration, was that the Platonic noble lie was employed in the interest of the civilisational order of their societies, whereas the Bush lie was done for completely ulterior and arguably sinister ideological motives (it's unclear how aware Bush himself was of this) in the interest of global oil, Saudi Arabia or Israel (make up your own mind). This doesn't solve the moral ambiguity of "the noble lie", but I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate. Perhaps it also goes back to the Machiavellian notion of ends justify the means, and the old paradigm between political idealism and pragmatism, pessimism and utopianism. Batman says at the end "sometimes the truth isn't good enough."
I think Bush's lie was indeed employed in the interest of civilisational order; almost all imperialist activities are like this. Without global dominance, militarily and economically, America would simply not be able to sustain itself. I think the personalisation of these actions as being that of a bad actor (see: Michael Moore's hypothesis on the Iraq war) really misses the mark, and fails to recognise how systems work. America being a capitalist nation functions like any other, and capitalism produces certain economic imperatives. In this example the requirements were for control of oil in the middle east, stimulation of the MIC, and many others. So in this way, if you consider maintenance of the US economy crucial to upholding civilisational order, Bush's lie was indeed the Platonic noble lie.
The question that appears when I read your comment is how to know if the lies is a noble or a pervert one. I guess it's a slippery terrain which Bane use easily to destroy what Dent, Batman and Gordon stood for at a moment. How to stop that lies before it become a monster you can't stop? Many questions can come out of it. So I guess it's just a way to look away from the source of the problem. I would say how can you create something positive with that lie.
So funny to read comments by Team Americans. You realize that civilization existed long before the New World was discovered, right? The world doesn't _need_ the US military to maintain order.
Feudalism never ended. It just added extra steps. Jeff besos is a Lord and he has many hectares of land and serfs doing his work. He does not pay taxes while his employes have too. government officials also get bribed to give contracts to him to "bring" jobs to their community, meaning that part of the taxes circle back around to the guy you are working for.
This is from 2014? .. First time i see Zizek not sounding like hes about to choke on his own spit with each word. Whatever happened since then, he needs to take a look back.
You know what my emphasis is on something very fundamental, question of the nature, what does joker represents through the nature, what happens to the nature itself , how did it came into being, how did he managed to become trans-being??? And so on and so on....
I disagree with the final clip of Iraq WMD speech by Rumsfeld. That was a more of a selfish personal benefical reason for them to lie. I don't think they thought it was for the benefit of the people. The Dark Knight is far closer to the argument made in the Grand Inquisitor chapter in "The Brother Kazamarov", which is that people struggle with the truth and most will self destruct from it, therefore we have to protect them.
Zizek never said lying is for the benefit of the people, but to allow for the smooth functioning of our current economic and political systems. The WMD speech is a method to continue our neo-liberal imperialism that is part of continuing the status quo.
I don't think there was any good reason for them to lie, they could've used real attrocities, one example being when Saddam used chemical weapons against the Kurdish. Anyways the CIA had already fucked up by initially helping the baath party take control so fuck
@@Padybu the thing about that is that the CIA already helped Saddam use the gas in the Iran-Iraq war. The US was too tied to the stockpile they had to play it up as the main objective.
Yes, Rumsfeld's lie is not exactly a "noble lie" (Plato's term in the Republic). I'd have to go back and re-read it to get Plato's definition exactly right, but a "noble lie" is certainly not just any lie the state tells. Each of the lies that Dent, Batman, and Gordon tell are self-sacrificing and done to protect others at the expense of the liar himself. The Joker tells nothing but self-serving truths--the heroes lie to save others. It sure throws a monkey wrench in Kantian ethics. But Zizek is right; this is the standard conservative stance; the people can't handle the truth, so a lie must be given to them to replace it. Conservative readers of Plato, like Leo Strauss, act like Plato's Republic is the only dialogue that matters and pervert all the others to try to make them fit with the Republic.
In my opinion this analysis is not great because it fails to contextualize the movie in the larger picture, which is the trilogy. In the 3rd movie, it is proven to batman that the lie made him weak and greater even a worse and more dangerous villain like Bane. It is not an apology to the lie, but a criticism of it.
Well I don't think it's saying that the system should be held up this way, but rather that it IS currently held up in this way. All three villains from the movies are critics of this fact and desire to destroy it. I think Nolan is more of a critic of these extreme methods with which they attempt to destroy the lie, which involve the deaths/torture of civilians.
yes but they all fail but the joker. they know the joker is telling the truth but the public cannot know it so they lie about what happened to harvey dent and what he did
@@GrothendiecksWish Go read Kant. He says lying is wrong under all circumstances in all of his writings on ethics. Or you can just keep making ignorant comments on TH-cam.
Actually that's correct - Kant said lying was wrong, even if it could save someone's life[1]. Maybe Zizek is talking about Kant's opposition to direct democracy as 'mob rule' or tyranny of the majority[2]; that humans are violent and we need elected representatives to restrain us? I've never read anything by Kant so take that with a grain of salt. [1]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_a_Supposed_Right_to_Tell_Lies_from_Benevolent_Motives [2]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy_of_Immanuel_Kant
I watch this and think of the function of Bernie Madoff. We "default to truth" at our own peril, but yet, in certain ways, need to in order to function.
The problem with Slavoj that emerged with the internet fame is that he could fart into a microphone and people would appreciate it as intellectual remarks.
Žižekova politična stranka LDS je ( bila in je še kar narej s svojimi filialami ... ) ta najbolj kriminalna stranka v Republiki ZLOveniji ( sodniki, pravniki, zdravniki ... ... ). Nekoč so goljufive peke namakali v Ljubljanici ... morda zdaj, ko/če bo kaj zamrznjena pa bi bilo lahko možno tudi kaj takega: th-cam.com/video/i-dJPoSlPfU/w-d-xo.html
@@GrothendiecksWish so taking responsibility for someone else's actions to keep the peace in your city, is the same as making up some bullshit so you can kill a million brown people on the other side of the world just for profit is the same thing. yeah good one mate.
I think Zizek has missed something here. Does the film really endorse the position that Zizek says it does? I would claim yes, BUT. The but is important. Dark Knight does claim that a lie is needed to maintain the law today, but this exception to the law that Batman represents must not be elevated to a position of heroism like all other superhero films do, but it must be seen as antithetical to the law and therefore a true hero is someone who allows us to exist in a lie at their expense. In this course of events, George W. Bush would have immediately put himself under investigation for war crimes and breaking of constitution. But of course, he didn't. I think this film is rebelling against the superhero industry and what it represents, that exceptionality to the law is not something to be repeated again and again but must be done with a huge cost if it is to maintain law and order. It's still a conservative story but one that is still rebelling against modern trends like a Leftist film does.
I don't understand what the lie is. And would you need a lie in the context of the superhero who represents Truth abd Logic? The story of the superhero and particularly Batman is that logic and truth will out.
"I don't understand what the lie is? And would you need a lie in the context of the superhero who represents Truth abd Logic." You reversed your end punctuation marks.
Theyungcity23 if a society of law and order is corrupt and the public becomes aware of that corruption, then that society will collapse into chaos. This very phenomenon is killing America right now, and will very likely be what ends up killing you.
@@Scroteydada depends what you mean by "better." Thanos embodies the callous conviction that is killing our species in the real, and Joker is rebelling against neoliberalism and the ridiculing its inherent contradictions via chaos. I mean, pick your poison, but to say one is objectively better is pretty dumb.
@@aaronsanders6162 Thanos has flawed flaws. He relies on mcguffins that aren't explained enough for his thought process to mean much. Endgame seems to reveal how he's just a party sociopath who enjoys the attention of his cult. That's nothing. The Joker is convincing. The way society needs to deny the conflict in its terms in order to avoid explosive conflict is a joke to him. He's also a a smug sociopath. But he doesn't deny it so he doesn't waste time. His lack of empathy lets him make the comments he does but it's also how he's proven wrong by the people on the boats.
@LTopomcFly it’s not propaganda. The events of its sequel clearly lay out the dire consequences that directly stem from the lies created in the TDK, and how they destroy the moral foundations of the heroes of the series. Propaganda is an inexact term imo.
You cannot lie if you do not know the truth. Putting aside the semantic and legal difference between an active weapons program and weapons already acquired (chemical weapons), it is incorrect to say that Rumsfeld or Blair lied about Iraq's active pursuit of WMD, because people say they know things which turn out not to be true all the time. It doesn't make them liars, it just means they were wrong.
@@EpicMRPancake brother they made an illegal war, JUST LIKE HITLER did, killed hundreths of thousands, displaced millions, destabilized the region. Doesnt that sound evil or you just stupid or a sympathizer of these villians? Please i wanna know, i want to laugh at somebody on the internet
I think what he is saying is that truth is ultimately a Destructive force past a Certain point. Gotham was so far gone and so corrupting that even those who genuinely uphold the law know they have to play dirty. I’m this way, Batman is a lying hero and the joker is a truth telling villain.
@@jackshoot3521 Yeah, he says that the message the narrative of the movie conveys is an old conservative wisdom that goes to the very beginnings of the european canon of political philosophy. So basically that the Dark Knight promotes that for a functional society leaders have to lie as truth will collapse the foundations of it. Haven't read enough of Žižek to know whether he agrees with this idea, but this is a rather easily provable reading of the movie.
I agree, it wasn't really an analysis so much as just what the movie itself tells you it's about. (Batman says towards the end "sometimes the truth just isn't good enough." It's essentially as explicit in the movie as a theme can be.) And then why this idea of building civic order on a lie is problematic is the very theme of the next movie, Dark Night Rises. Zizek is just repeating the most transparent themes of the movies, and then acting like that is some sort of critique.
the ironic thing is that Iraq did indeed have weapons of mass destruction but the DoD covered it up and disposed of the evidence. My guess is that the powers that be didnt want the public to know who gave them the weapons because they were probably there since the Iraq-Iran war.
why seek a conspiracy if years of investigations (of a dozen nations) has led to a different conclusion (especially if the incentive for their intelligence services was to FIND something of value to change the public opinion) have you read the reports before and after the iraq war? Everyone knows who sold iraq the weapons (US) its in the public record. "In April 2003, US Marines stumbled across a number of buildings which emitted unusual levels of radiation. Upon close inspection the troops uncovered "many, many drums" containing low-grade uranium, also known as yellowcake. According to an expert familiar with UN nuclear inspections, US troops had arrived at the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center and the material under investigation had been documented, stored in sealed containers and subject to supervision by the International Atomic Energy Agency since 1991. The material was transported out of Iraq in July 2008 and sold to Canadian uranium producer Cameco Corp." The remaining 5% of WMD that could technically be called weapons were sold to the iraq by the US to support war against iran (back in 1991). the shelf life of these chemical weapons was 5 years and what was left was no longer actual WMD's and were under the supervision of the AIEOU or UNSCOM. . Instead of informing yourself why do you just start inventing stuff without any actual inquisitiv conscience. i wouldnt care if ppl approach reality like - i can only assume - you do but 1.5 million iraqi's died as a consence of this lie.
@Azrakul He is talking about 20th century Stalinist "communism". No sane leftist thinks the solution to contemporary problems is to bring back USSR style socialism. However Zizek is being critical of capitalism, he is pessimistic in the sense that liberal democracy is incapable of solving those problems. No way he ever implied that he is pro-capitalism.
@Anthony Salerno actually it's coz I'm NOT new to TH-cam, that I find the expression trite and overused at this point. It was tongue-in-cheek funny at first, when people started using it for their favorite content creators back in the early part of this decade... Bringing this same mock seriousness to complex issues of ideology cheapens whatever argument (commies evil/capitalists good??) one presents
@@kristerrs No! I agree with you! I also think that from the beginning. Why do you think i left this comment? Of course i see through it. I meant you were correct with my comment.
@@LunaLu-00 ah ok. I just meet so many people who blatantly consumes the government narrative, and thinks im a conspiracy nut whenever i say something different. The fact that people are in favor of forced vaccination or indirect force with vaccination passes, and in favor of curfew on a basis of 450 old people in my country dying is scary To quote Slavoj Zizek: th-cam.com/video/mkOKV66aEpk/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgxIjZv0hA3ChXpvDMZ4AaABAg&ab_channel=L1nK
" The truly disturbing thing about the Dark Knight is that it elevates lie into a general social principle - principle of organization of our social political life as if our society can remain stable and can function only if based on a lie and as if telling the truth (embodied in Joker) means destruction / disintegration of a social order.We need a lie to maintain order." This man is a genius. He just gets it and that is so rare!
Luna L - Dunno about ‘genius’. That’s a fairly obvious observation. That’s what the film is about. Certainly the character of the The Joker. If you’re going to assign anyone with the ‘genius’ label - if should perhaps be the writers / directors.
@@theknowlodge8294 I made the observation that Mr Zizek is a true genius based on everything I have seen/heard from him so far, not just this one topic. Its so 'funny' to me how often I came across (non-genius) people that would say how something is "obvious" but you could tell from the way they lived their lives and conducted themselves in general that they had no clue about how most things/people/themselves function and especially were not aware of their own little Ego trips (which is the only reason for your comment). Zizek might seems 'weird' or funny to most people but he has understood things in a way that nobody else has (of course, there are other geniuses here and there, but he is unique in his own way) even though many smart asses will say how the things he points out are "so obvious" and yet nobody has ever heard about their work and Zizek is going strong to this day and is constantly right on the point on every and any subject he talks about. He is gaining respect even from his opponents that quickly become his 'buddies" when they realize what kind of a unique genius they had the opportunity to meet, debate and learn from. Only the small minds will say "its nothing special" for such a great mind!
![[YTP] Batman Is Not the Hero Gotham Deserves](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqBt8Rkyoq4/mqdefault.jpg)
"we live in a society"
-zizek
*Margaret Thotcher left the conversation.*
Also George Costanza
"and here I would disagree. Is it not really that instead of the common wisdom, we live in a society, but it is that society is what is living in us."
@@brock9380 hence the need to die to himself or at least abandon it ? Truth is hiding behind paid and self is beyond comfort
You shee my friendsh we live in a shoshiety
XD leave the old man alone huh lol
And so on and so on.
Sniff
I giggled.
gamersh,,,, ve really musht raish up
A little offtopic; The speach by Bush "we will fight in the name of peaceˇ reminds me of that movie "Mars attacks!" by tim burton, there aliens scream "don't run! - we come in peace!" - while shooting and killing everyone :)
Lol, could you elaborate? To me that seems a bit too cynical, as Hussein indeed had to be removed, albeit that it was done rather poorly.
But why was he removed? I'm not saying he didn't need to be. But he wasn't removed for peace. He was removed for imperialistic benefits of USA
What? He invaded Kuwait because he thought the country was his, which ended up involving the US defending Kuwait, as they barely had a proper army. In other words; he attacked a defenseless country because Sadam thought they were stealing oil from Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war (which Sadam also started, by the way). Secondly, he was fooling around with the non-proliferation treaty, not letting the inspectors do their work, not destroying his biochemical and other weapons. Thirdly, he was knowingly harbouring gangsters and international terrorists (the country was RIDDEN with terrorist cells). And to finish on the darkest note; he was opressing, as well as gassing, killing the Kurds, an ethnic group within Iraq. He used the same gas agents and biological weapons as he did in the war against Iran.
I understand you might be skeptical because of the results of the war, but Christ, what other reasons do you need? Is the invading of a sovereign country and the attempt at killing an entire ethnic group not enough for you?
Also known as; A plan to bring democracy to the middle east.
@@jodawgsup bullshit..The United States equally has no right to invade a sovereign nation. The last two presidents of America, Obama and Trump, have both said it was a catastrophic blunder that has made the world less safe.
Why Sho Sherious?
the dark night is a great feelum
I wonder how long batman had to stand into the wall in the dark room to enable him to make this dramatic appearance.
Surprises me that Zizek fails to mention the part when Batman tortures the Joker, this when the american people was being brainshed into accepting torture as a way of getting info from alleged "terrorists". It was very partial and not well seen by many at the time, specially with the fresh images of abugrahib in everyones mind.
This isn't the whole analysis of Batman from the movie.
I think it would distract from the main point he's trying to make about the movie
Zizek is saying Batman, the cops, and Harvey are all lying in order to save the status quo of the corrupt system they (we) live in. Gordon at the end is perpetuating the lie. They have seen the corruption, but they have becoming part of the system as well. So nothing will change. Meanwhile the movie is saying "sometimes the lesser evil/sacrifices are necessary".
Your claim is absurd, he doesn't need to denounce something so specific just because you have made a connection. That's on you.
@@dargkkast6469 Yes, You are correct..... Cool, just one thing... the part i'm taking about, (manufacturing consent for torture) at the time was propaganda, so it's goes beyond the lesser evil theme... Nolan is one of the top propaganda filmakers, just behind Steven Spielberg.
@@bernardodelatorre5243 it's just Nolan does this in other movies (portraying the police as central, holding the... moral? power). Some people like him think whatever the "forces of order" do, as long as it's not against the nation* (in the case of the movie, the cops should let batman kick the Joker's ass; in the case you speak of, the tortures). So my point is, your case is a specific one, but Nolan has always had a police fetish. And so Zizek treats this in a generic way.
Did Nolan choose the scene for the specific case you are saying? I can't speak from him so if you think so keep doing it, no harm done after all xd 🤷🏼♂️.
Why did YT shuddenly shuggested me this???
*thish
Because we live in a schosciety
Because you need it
Because Joker movie is coming out in October and everyone is talking about the trailer which is btw the best trailer I've ever seen
Maybe they have more faith in you than your history would suggest?
AND SO ON AND SO ON.
i understand him less with subtitles
Why is there no sniffing
I know right. I was a little disappointed
He didn't need to raise his power level that high
He seems to contain it for the two "Pervert's guide" documentaries. But when he's in front of a live audience--of one or one thousand, the sniffing ramps up.
“Weapons of Mass Destruction”
Not complying with central banking. _Noble_ lie indeed.
Its not JUST "central banking" its all of the western imperialist-capitalist system.
@@WalksandSuch which holds the monopoly of violence in global affairs which acts on behalf of global banking and finance.
What's the name of this documentary/film? I'd like to watch it completely.
The pervert's guide to ideology
Careful because it "spoils" every film in it. Make sure you either watch all the films or skip the parts with films you haven't seen yet.
@@synsam12345 It's because you're mistaken and they are right. This clip is from A Pervert's Guide To Ideology. Generally speaking, when things seem confusing it's normally because you're confused. 😜
@@chrisjdgrady Do you have a list of all the movies it covers? That way I can watch them all before seeing this documentary.
@@gixxerfixxer4159 List here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pervert%27s_Guide_to_Ideology
My friends still don't believe me when I tell them that the DK trilogy is a conservative film series. It seemed very obvious to me, esp. with the last movie.
It is very conservative. I didn't figure it out until the last movie either. But remember, Bruce Wayne is a billionaire savior of the little people of Gotham. Hard for that not to be conservative.
@@caspian3755 I don't disagree, at least, not entirely. But I think the weakness of the last film is that it loses that transparency. Whereas the Joker has all the most politically trenchant comments in the 2nd film; Bane is a typically inchoate, sadistic representative of a radicalism that has no real agenda other than vengeful destruction. The League of Shadows had a philosophically valid point when Liam Neeson ran it; but under Bane and what's her face, it is a puerile indulgence of the Family Romance cum mass destruction.
@@davidc.2878 he isn’t savior tho. I mean he saved them from a bomb but people are still suffering. Crime still exists, with lots of poverty and corruption.
Bane in the dark Knight rises tried to fix that but Batman stopped him.
@@davidc.2878 and yet he also distributes all his wealth to the poor upon death and falls for & settles with a poor thief
@@davidc.2878 The League in Batman Begins wanted the exact same thing it wanted in Rises
The difference is between the Noble lie of Plato/Batman, and that of the Bush administration, was that the Platonic noble lie was employed in the interest of the civilisational order of their societies, whereas the Bush lie was done for completely ulterior and arguably sinister ideological motives (it's unclear how aware Bush himself was of this) in the interest of global oil, Saudi Arabia or Israel (make up your own mind). This doesn't solve the moral ambiguity of "the noble lie", but I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate.
Perhaps it also goes back to the Machiavellian notion of ends justify the means, and the old paradigm between political idealism and pragmatism, pessimism and utopianism. Batman says at the end "sometimes the truth isn't good enough."
I think Bush's lie was indeed employed in the interest of civilisational order; almost all imperialist activities are like this. Without global dominance, militarily and economically, America would simply not be able to sustain itself. I think the personalisation of these actions as being that of a bad actor (see: Michael Moore's hypothesis on the Iraq war) really misses the mark, and fails to recognise how systems work. America being a capitalist nation functions like any other, and capitalism produces certain economic imperatives. In this example the requirements were for control of oil in the middle east, stimulation of the MIC, and many others. So in this way, if you consider maintenance of the US economy crucial to upholding civilisational order, Bush's lie was indeed the Platonic noble lie.
The question that appears when I read your comment is how to know if the lies is a noble or a pervert one. I guess it's a slippery terrain which Bane use easily to destroy what Dent, Batman and Gordon stood for at a moment. How to stop that lies before it become a monster you can't stop? Many questions can come out of it. So I guess it's just a way to look away from the source of the problem.
I would say how can you create something positive with that lie.
@@TechnicCreations not really, because the US economy isn't CRUCIAL to uphold civilisational order, that's (as zizek puts it) just ideology
Lie is still a lie. Stop lying to yourself. This comment reeks of arrogance.
So funny to read comments by Team Americans. You realize that civilization existed long before the New World was discovered, right? The world doesn't _need_ the US military to maintain order.
You know how embarrassing it is to see everyone already made the comment you were gonna make
I don’t think there’ll ever be a better joker
Well
And that is Zizek
This makes a lot of sense when you apply this way of thinking to feudalism and the church
Feudalism never ended. It just added extra steps. Jeff besos is a Lord and he has many hectares of land and serfs doing his work. He does not pay taxes while his employes have too. government officials also get bribed to give contracts to him to "bring" jobs to their community, meaning that part of the taxes circle back around to the guy you are working for.
This is from 2014? .. First time i see Zizek not sounding like hes about to choke on his own spit with each word. Whatever happened since then, he needs to take a look back.
@Melancholic Manatee Really?
This could be applied to psychotherapy and the notion of "Self-actualization" as well
You know what my emphasis is on something very fundamental, question of the nature, what does joker represents through the nature, what happens to the nature itself , how did it came into being, how did he managed to become trans-being??? And so on and so on....
I disagree with the final clip of Iraq WMD speech by Rumsfeld. That was a more of a selfish personal benefical reason for them to lie. I don't think they thought it was for the benefit of the people.
The Dark Knight is far closer to the argument made in the Grand Inquisitor chapter in "The Brother Kazamarov", which is that people struggle with the truth and most will self destruct from it, therefore we have to protect them.
Zizek never said lying is for the benefit of the people, but to allow for the smooth functioning of our current economic and political systems. The WMD speech is a method to continue our neo-liberal imperialism that is part of continuing the status quo.
I don't think there was any good reason for them to lie, they could've used real attrocities, one example being when Saddam used chemical weapons against the Kurdish. Anyways the CIA had already fucked up by initially helping the baath party take control so fuck
@@Padybu the thing about that is that the CIA already helped Saddam use the gas in the Iran-Iraq war. The US was too tied to the stockpile they had to play it up as the main objective.
Yes, Rumsfeld's lie is not exactly a "noble lie" (Plato's term in the Republic). I'd have to go back and re-read it to get Plato's definition exactly right, but a "noble lie" is certainly not just any lie the state tells. Each of the lies that Dent, Batman, and Gordon tell are self-sacrificing and done to protect others at the expense of the liar himself. The Joker tells nothing but self-serving truths--the heroes lie to save others. It sure throws a monkey wrench in Kantian ethics. But Zizek is right; this is the standard conservative stance; the people can't handle the truth, so a lie must be given to them to replace it. Conservative readers of Plato, like Leo Strauss, act like Plato's Republic is the only dialogue that matters and pervert all the others to try to make them fit with the Republic.
In my opinion this analysis is not great because it fails to contextualize the movie in the larger picture, which is the trilogy. In the 3rd movie, it is proven to batman that the lie made him weak and greater even a worse and more dangerous villain like Bane. It is not an apology to the lie, but a criticism of it.
Well I don't think it's saying that the system should be held up this way, but rather that it IS currently held up in this way. All three villains from the movies are critics of this fact and desire to destroy it. I think Nolan is more of a critic of these extreme methods with which they attempt to destroy the lie, which involve the deaths/torture of civilians.
yes but they all fail but the joker. they know the joker is telling the truth but the public cannot know it so they lie about what happened to harvey dent and what he did
i have that same lamp, only it's red :)
:)
Really breaks the illusion doesn't it?
Where can I find the full length version of this video?
This is from Slavoj Zizek's movie, "The Pervert's Guide To Ideology"
Immanuel Kant would not have encouraged lying
Prove it
@@GrothendiecksWish Go read Kant. He says lying is wrong under all circumstances in all of his writings on ethics. Or you can just keep making ignorant comments on TH-cam.
@@davidc.2878 or you can cite exactly where he says it and save us time
Actually that's correct - Kant said lying was wrong, even if it could save someone's life[1]. Maybe Zizek is talking about Kant's opposition to direct democracy as 'mob rule' or tyranny of the majority[2]; that humans are violent and we need elected representatives to restrain us?
I've never read anything by Kant so take that with a grain of salt.
[1]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_a_Supposed_Right_to_Tell_Lies_from_Benevolent_Motives
[2]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy_of_Immanuel_Kant
Where is this taken from?? Seems good
Zizek DVD "Perverts Guide to Cinema" or "Perverts Guide to Ideology"
I watch this and think of the function of Bernie Madoff. We "default to truth" at our own peril, but yet, in certain ways, need to in order to function.
So does he like it or hate it
What is this documentary?
The perverts guide to ideology
All those "noble fables" the gubment been telling, have brought us to where we are today. Obviously they do not work in the long run.
The problem with Slavoj that emerged with the internet fame is that he could fart into a microphone and people would appreciate it as intellectual remarks.
Why is this being suggested to me?
Darrrrrrck knight
the DUCK knight
The real question is why is he sitting in tha toilet at the end
And it looks like the setting of Full Metal Jacket
Because it is, indeed, the setting of Full Metal Jacket (another movie he references in the documentary)
I thought Kant was against the noble lie... but I never read his political writings... just the categorical imperative...
i don't appreciate the cut you've made at the end.
it was Zizek's video cut, not mine
Žižekova politična stranka LDS je ( bila in je še kar narej s svojimi filialami ... ) ta najbolj kriminalna stranka v Republiki ZLOveniji ( sodniki, pravniki, zdravniki ... ... ). Nekoč so goljufive peke namakali v Ljubljanici ... morda zdaj, ko/če bo kaj zamrznjena pa bi bilo lahko možno tudi kaj takega: th-cam.com/video/i-dJPoSlPfU/w-d-xo.html
LDS na "Špici" Ljubljanski ? Takoj za LDS seveda tudi SDS ( sedaj že tretjič na oblasti Republike Zlovenije !..... ); usw. ...
What is this from?
This is from Slavoj Zizek's movie, "The Pervert's Guide To Cinema"
Frank Taylor Ideology. The follow up to "Cinema"
@@mousofmen I will look into book
I get it now
Ironic dishonesty when you quoted Plato?
Or were you being serious?
Who do you think you're talking to?
Society
not all lies are the same.
Says the liar
@@GrothendiecksWish so taking responsibility for someone else's actions to keep the peace in your city, is the same as making up some bullshit so you can kill a million brown people on the other side of the world just for profit is the same thing. yeah good one mate.
bullshit binds us.
I think Zizek has missed something here. Does the film really endorse the position that Zizek says it does? I would claim yes, BUT. The but is important. Dark Knight does claim that a lie is needed to maintain the law today, but this exception to the law that Batman represents must not be elevated to a position of heroism like all other superhero films do, but it must be seen as antithetical to the law and therefore a true hero is someone who allows us to exist in a lie at their expense. In this course of events, George W. Bush would have immediately put himself under investigation for war crimes and breaking of constitution. But of course, he didn't. I think this film is rebelling against the superhero industry and what it represents, that exceptionality to the law is not something to be repeated again and again but must be done with a huge cost if it is to maintain law and order. It's still a conservative story but one that is still rebelling against modern trends like a Leftist film does.
We
Ngl Christopher Nolan’s Batman series is super right wing.
GOOOGOO POOPOOO GAGAGAG
I don't understand what the lie is. And would you need a lie in the context of the superhero who represents Truth abd Logic? The story of the superhero and particularly Batman is that logic and truth will out.
"I don't understand what the lie is? And would you need a lie in the context of the superhero who represents Truth abd Logic."
You reversed your end punctuation marks.
@@r0bw00d thanks
You're welcome. (o:Þ
Theyungcity23 if a society of law and order is corrupt and the public becomes aware of that corruption, then that society will collapse into chaos. This very phenomenon is killing America right now, and will very likely be what ends up killing you.
@@aaronsanders6162 wtf are you suggesting?
this is really pedestrian
Watch the whole movie--this clip is incomplete even about Batman.
Dark Knight > Endgame
Endgame was more Dark Knight Rises. Average, but not terrible, but not anywhere near the league of its predecessor.
Darth Dani Endgame > Dark Knight
Iron Man was better than this Batman and Joker was much better than purple hulk
@@Scroteydada depends what you mean by "better." Thanos embodies the callous conviction that is killing our species in the real, and Joker is rebelling against neoliberalism and the ridiculing its inherent contradictions via chaos. I mean, pick your poison, but to say one is objectively better is pretty dumb.
@@aaronsanders6162 Thanos has flawed flaws. He relies on mcguffins that aren't explained enough for his thought process to mean much. Endgame seems to reveal how he's just a party sociopath who enjoys the attention of his cult. That's nothing.
The Joker is convincing. The way society needs to deny the conflict in its terms in order to avoid explosive conflict is a joke to him. He's also a a smug sociopath. But he doesn't deny it so he doesn't waste time. His lack of empathy lets him make the comments he does but it's also how he's proven wrong by the people on the boats.
Nerd
Whoa... I would never think the movie was that profound... I thought it was about superheroes and other bs.
@LTopomcFly it’s not propaganda. The events of its sequel clearly lay out the dire consequences that directly stem from the lies created in the TDK, and how they destroy the moral foundations of the heroes of the series. Propaganda is an inexact term imo.
First
First
Venezuela comes to mind
USA comes to mind.
@@GrothendiecksWish "GOTHAM CITY" /Republic of ZLOvenia ( ZLO= EVIL ) comes zo mind
You cannot lie if you do not know the truth. Putting aside the semantic and legal difference between an active weapons program and weapons already acquired (chemical weapons), it is incorrect to say that Rumsfeld or Blair lied about Iraq's active pursuit of WMD, because people say they know things which turn out not to be true all the time. It doesn't make them liars, it just means they were wrong.
You forgot, evil. Dont forget they are also evil
@@reeyees50 Explain why they're evil.
@@EpicMRPancake cause you are defending them
@@reeyees50 That makes no sense, why does me defending them on this particular point make them evil?
@@EpicMRPancake brother they made an illegal war, JUST LIKE HITLER did, killed hundreths of thousands, displaced millions, destabilized the region. Doesnt that sound evil or you just stupid or a sympathizer of these villians? Please i wanna know, i want to laugh at somebody on the internet
Slavoj must be smoking that good stuff if he sees Batman as pro-commie.
Did you watch the video? He clearly says that it is old conservative wisdom. What's pro-commie about that?
I think what he is saying is that truth is ultimately a
Destructive force past a
Certain point.
Gotham was so far gone and so corrupting that even those who genuinely uphold the law know they have to play dirty.
I’m this way, Batman is a lying hero and the joker is a truth telling villain.
@@jackshoot3521 Yeah, he says that the message the narrative of the movie conveys is an old conservative wisdom that goes to the very beginnings of the european canon of political philosophy.
So basically that the Dark Knight promotes that for a functional society leaders have to lie as truth will collapse the foundations of it.
Haven't read enough of Žižek to know whether he agrees with this idea, but this is a rather easily provable reading of the movie.
If that's the conclusion you came up with I'm afraid you're the one who's smoking here..
@@Professicchio well you have 72 videos of Bill Maher so I can't really see who won here
Jesus I could do this analysis by the time I was 9 or 10.
JoseitoEdlVodao then what have you been wasting your time on genius?
Fernando Reyes making these comments lmao
lmaooooo
I agree, it wasn't really an analysis so much as just what the movie itself tells you it's about. (Batman says towards the end "sometimes the truth just isn't good enough." It's essentially as explicit in the movie as a theme can be.) And then why this idea of building civic order on a lie is problematic is the very theme of the next movie, Dark Night Rises. Zizek is just repeating the most transparent themes of the movies, and then acting like that is some sort of critique.
You can't do 1/10th of this analysis today...
the ironic thing is that Iraq did indeed have weapons of mass destruction but the DoD covered it up and disposed of the evidence. My guess is that the powers that be didnt want the public to know who gave them the weapons because they were probably there since the Iraq-Iran war.
why seek a conspiracy if years of investigations (of a dozen nations) has led to a different conclusion (especially if the incentive for their intelligence services was to FIND something of value to change the public opinion) have you read the reports before and after the iraq war? Everyone knows who sold iraq the weapons (US) its in the public record.
"In April 2003, US Marines stumbled across a number of buildings which emitted unusual levels of radiation. Upon close inspection the troops uncovered "many, many drums" containing low-grade uranium, also known as yellowcake. According to an expert familiar with UN nuclear inspections, US troops had arrived at the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center and the material under investigation had been documented, stored in sealed containers and subject to supervision by the International Atomic Energy Agency since 1991. The material was transported out of Iraq in July 2008 and sold to Canadian uranium producer Cameco Corp."
The remaining 5% of WMD that could technically be called weapons were sold to the iraq by the US to support war against iran (back in 1991). the shelf life of these chemical weapons was 5 years and what was left was no longer actual WMD's and were under the supervision of the AIEOU or UNSCOM. . Instead of informing yourself why do you just start inventing stuff without any actual inquisitiv conscience. i wouldnt care if ppl approach reality like - i can only assume - you do but 1.5 million iraqi's died as a consence of this lie.
I'm a simple man, i see a communist, a hit the dislike button.
"simple" it's the key word that describes your intelligence I guess
@@beefknuckles where
@Azrakul He is talking about 20th century Stalinist "communism". No sane leftist thinks the solution to contemporary problems is to bring back USSR style socialism. However Zizek is being critical of capitalism, he is pessimistic in the sense that liberal democracy is incapable of solving those problems. No way he ever implied that he is pro-capitalism.
Being a "simple man" isn't something you should openly wear with pride, whether ironic, or most likely unironically
@Anthony Salerno actually it's coz I'm NOT new to TH-cam, that I find the expression trite and overused at this point. It was tongue-in-cheek funny at first, when people started using it for their favorite content creators back in the early part of this decade...
Bringing this same mock seriousness to complex issues of ideology cheapens whatever argument (commies evil/capitalists good??) one presents
"we need a lie to maintain order"
coronavirus
@@kristerrs good one =)
@@LunaLu-00 im being serious, and if you think im joking they have been very successful
@@kristerrs No! I agree with you! I also think that from the beginning. Why do you think i left this comment? Of course i see through it. I meant you were correct with my comment.
@@LunaLu-00 ah ok. I just meet so many people who blatantly consumes the government narrative, and thinks im a conspiracy nut whenever i say something different.
The fact that people are in favor of forced vaccination or indirect force with vaccination passes, and in favor of curfew on a basis of 450 old people in my country dying is scary
To quote Slavoj Zizek: th-cam.com/video/mkOKV66aEpk/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgxIjZv0hA3ChXpvDMZ4AaABAg&ab_channel=L1nK
" The truly disturbing thing about the Dark Knight is that it elevates lie into a general social principle - principle of organization of our social political life as if our society can remain stable and can function only if based on a lie and as if telling the truth (embodied in Joker) means destruction / disintegration of a social order.We need a lie to maintain order."
This man is a genius. He just gets it and that is so rare!
Luna L - Dunno about ‘genius’. That’s a fairly obvious observation. That’s what the film is about. Certainly the character of the The Joker.
If you’re going to assign anyone with the ‘genius’ label - if should perhaps be the writers / directors.
@@theknowlodge8294 I made the observation that Mr Zizek is a true genius based on everything I have seen/heard from him so far, not just this one topic. Its so 'funny' to me how often I came across (non-genius) people that would say how something is "obvious" but you could tell from the way they lived their lives and conducted themselves in general that they had no clue about how most things/people/themselves function and especially were not aware of their own little Ego trips (which is the only reason for your comment).
Zizek might seems 'weird' or funny to most people but he has understood things in a way that nobody else has (of course, there are other geniuses here and there, but he is unique in his own way) even though many smart asses will say how the things he points out are "so obvious" and yet nobody has ever heard about their work and Zizek is going strong to this day and is constantly right on the point on every and any subject he talks about. He is gaining respect even from his opponents that quickly become his 'buddies" when they realize what kind of a unique genius they had the opportunity to meet, debate and learn from. Only the small minds will say "its nothing special" for such a great mind!