Enemies have insane amounts of damage, health, armor and shields. Not to mention they also get health gating and CC protection. Aim bot and one-shot ruins this game completely. Survivability is non-existent and some frames can't solo the content. Not to mention that active s don't even work like dodging and bullet jumping, etc.
Then that would be health gating which is what we used to have to do before Shield gating all in all the argument to remove Shield getting is fucking stupid it's the equivalent of asking DE to remove armour stripping because the steel path is too easy
That is sort of the videos entire point, i think. The reason enemies DO one shot your warframe is because DE designed the steel path enemies knowing shield gating exists. If shield gating didn't exist, DE would have never designed the enemies to one shot your warframe in the first place. Shield Gating is the SOURCE of DE being lazy about scaling their game properly.
I veiw this as more of an issue of warframe armor scaling in addition to the enemy damage as you described. The fact is that even dedicated bruiser frames can't scale DR past level 200-300 maybe 600 with a source of status clear anymore. Having to boost to 2500-3000 armor for it to matter late is honestly a little silly (oberon, the only frame that gives out armor, needs 4 armor shards + gaurdian + umbral set at 300%str to acheive this and he is only really allowed to give the team 50% armor DR). imo the denominator gap for warframes should be changed from 300 to 150 and even this would only put valkyr prime at 90% armor dr from a full umbral set. Please make armor a useful stat.
Lots of frames can scale past level 200 and 300 with proper builds. Nekros, Nezha, Nidus, Gauss, Baruuk, and Rhino can all scale super far. Nezha's and Rhino's tank abilities both scale with enemy damage by funneling it into the halo/iron skin. Nidus can stack multiple layers of DR to have only a tiny fraction of damage hit him and still can cheat death indefinitely so long as you have stacks. Nekros can easily get over a million EHP through his layers of damage reduction. Gauss gets full immunity to all physical damage types and a couple extras with his kinetic plating. Baruuk can reach the some of the highest damage reduction in the game. Revenant is a bit of an outlier since he just says no to any amount of damage. You honestly won't be forced into any content that's above level 300 as the highest node is conjunction survival at lvl 200. Even then, several of the frames I've mentioned can reach level cap through various means. We have the tools necessary to push things as far as they can go, but that's honestly not necessary for general content.
It is. But the reason DE did not scale armor and enemy damage properly is because shield gating existed. Instead of removing shield gating and properly scaling armor/enemies, they just made enemies one-shot you instead because that is the only way to create the facade of challenge in a game where shield gating exists. If shield gating was never in the game, the endgame enemies would have never been designed to one-shot you in the first place. Shield Gating is the entire reason the scaling of the game has been ignored. (Why bother scaling the game properly if all the players are bypassing the scaling anyways, is the logic.)
To be completely honest, I think Shield Gating only highlights just how bad all the other defensive options are. (Barring Mesmer Skin, Iron Skin, Invisibility, Resonator). Health, Armor, Damage Reduction. All of them become completely useless after a certain level threshold in Steel Path. Not even an Inaros equipped with Adaptation and every Health and Armor mod/arcane in the game can avoid being instantly evaporated by a level 1000 enemy. This is why Shield Gating is absolutely necessary for endurance runners. Because cheesing those invincibility frames is the only way you're going to last multiple hours in an endless survival without having to resort to using only a small handful of Warframes that are literally unkillable. At least give Shield Gating some credit because it makes almost every frame viable. Nerfing it will only hurt the game in the long run.
Well said...and the key point for me is limited frames.thats a bad way to design a mode. I don't care I how good you is...I barely if hardly ever see people using all frames in steel path...I like variety
@@semtexagon That's pretty ironic, considering shield gating is the only thing that is currently saving her from being dumped in trash tier. Alongside every other frame that aren't named Revenant, Rhino, Wukong and the invis frames.
They're not going to remove the augur set from the game, they'll probably only lower the values like they did with corrosive projection a couple years ago, that's the most likely thing they'll actually do. Removing survivability from warframes is a bad idea all around, requiring a teammate to keep you alive when you can't guarantee you'll have someone to play with to begin with never works out If people want to play alone then let them, forcing people to work together is why railjack was so hated at launch (along with the bugs)
They don't need to remove it, it's fine keeping shield gate in, to stop bs one shots. BUT u shouldn't be able to proc it non stop to live forever. Pretty sure the decaying dragon key is also not supposed to help either, that's clearly something devs missed out and didn't intend for it to be used that way, maybe make it so it only works on missions that can spawn orokin vaults. Shield gating should still stay in game, but put a cooldown on it, just like rolling guard. That's a mod that most people agree is very good, but it's not broken, just very good.
@Dym The devs know about shield gating with dragon keys and don't mind. There's already so many ways to be immortal and shield gating is one of the more active and risky ways to do that. No need to nerf it when revenant exists, invis is a thing, and you have so many methods of stacking damage reduction.
@@Cantaloupe_Connoiseur Just because they know about it, doesn't mean it was what they intended when they added it. Shield gating has people who like it and people who don't so devs chose not to get rid of it. Doesn't mean their opinion will never change or they think shield gating is fine as it is and never plan to change it. My problem with shield gating is not that it make you immortal, i think it's fine to give you a second chance if you mess up dodging some attack or etc. The issue i have is, you don't even need to dodge with shield gate, you are just permanently immortal, which is stupid in my opinion in a game that's suposed to be about ninja based combat. Shield gating should stay, just have a cooldown so you can't facetank everything but still have to avoid attacks or use other defensive skills to help.
@@123dmytro123 We are WAY past ninja combat man. Also tons of warframes can just sit there and face tank without shield gating so I'm not sure why 1 is an issue but the other isn't when shield gating is arguably much more risk and active than say Mesmer skin,iron skin, warding halo, kinetic plating, parasitic link, defy/wuclone, turbulence, eclipse, absorb with augment, shatter shield, preserving shell, shield of shadows nekros, high dr baruuk and the list can go on. We are WAY stronger than our enemies and aren't really in much danger in any content except level cap. Even then I'd say a good chunk of the cast can handle it pretty well. Shield gating might be popular but it's not the end all to be all or even the most OP survival mechanic in the game.
@@Cantaloupe_Connoiseur That's your opinion that we are past that, DE still say they want active gameplay every devstream and movement should be rewarded. At the end of the day, people use what's meta/best currently and shield gating is by far the most popular way to do anything past steel path level, so most people clearly agree it's the best/easiest to do if you want to play anything high level in general, maybe some specific frames have better options, but shield gating is most used for a reason.
I think something this video ignores is the core issues with Warframe itself, namely that missions usually either put us on a hard timer, enemies do absurd damage, or if the mission doesn't force you to kill things fast, the main objectives of the mission have enemies that bypass any sort of defensive play. This is probably the main reason Disruption and Cascade are so loved: you aren't on a super hard time limit to kill things, allowing you to pace your gameplay, and the main objectives of the game modes don't ignore everything that isn't raw damage. To put it another way, you mention Xaku as one of the frames that were made with the expectations of shield gating, but Xaku absolutely has the tools to never need to shield gate. They have their innate 75% dodge chance, the ability to basically map-wide mind control enemies since most Xakus will of course be running close to max range, and a third hard CC line attack on top of all that. Theoretically, Xaku shouldn't even be shot at in the first place, and if they are it's unlikely the shot will hit them, and if it does, THEN you have your one-time get-out-of-jail shield gate. So with all this protection, why do Xakus run shield gating to the point that you believe they were designed with shield gating in mind? Probably because Xaku using their defensive abilities either actively harms the objective, or the enemies that need to not target Xaku the most are the ones immune to being stopped. Guns don't auto-target brainwashed enemies, enemies will scatter all over the place chasing things down, brainwashed enemies aren't particularly good at killing their allies even inside a Gaze area, overguarded units ignore being brainwashed entirely and will just hard focus you, etc etc. Those aren't issues alone, the core issue is this means Xaku cannot keep up with the objective times without ignoring half of their kit and instead just using armor strips and shield gating. Xaku does extremely well for Disruption or Cascade, places where their strong CC is actually rewarded and you only need to burst down one hard CC immune enemy, which Xaku is actually really good at, meaning it's pretty feasible to go to level cap in those missions without shield gating if you wanted to. But Xaku in just a normal 20 minute survival to hit rotation C without shield gating, actually keeping up life support on their own? Sure it's doable but it requires an immense amount of active play and the payoff isn't that impressive. Xaku is no Saryn or Gyre or Ember or Nidus when it comes to deleting rooms. Does all this mean Xaku is bad for wanting to shield gate so they can actually seek out crowds that aren't scattered all over the place and can actually let their guns clean up enemies? I don't think anyone who has played Xaku could say that they're bad, so I don't think the core problem here is the shield gating aspect. This is just one example but the main argument is one that extends to a wider spectrum. You say it yourself in the issues with enemy damage. It's a core issue with the game that prevents middle-of-the-road frames from joining the ranks of tanking steel path enemies, within reason of course. Saryn is a good example: her relatively strong defensive stat spread and access to an instant status cleanse that also gives her a strong regen with an augment, on top of being extremely good at damaging the map, means you should really be able to slap Adaptation on her and reasonably tank with the big boys, and yet she's the poster child of shield gating because Molt almost feels like it was custom-designed to synergize with it and she isn't anywhere near realistically tanky enough for most modern content. Yes, I'm aware all frames can reasonably tank up to steel path level 250ish, Banshee included, but that's being hyperbolic and ignoring the build and time sacrifices you have to deal with when doing that. Saryn SHOULD be a frame that can walk into a new room and not get instantly downed before she can get things going, and yet she's commonly played with a shield gating setup instead. That issue is on Warframe's end, not shield gating's.
Then turn everyone into Inaros if thats your thing and have fun with the game that way. On a more serious note I look at shield gating as a difficulty slider. You have a more active defense so then you are able to build for offensive stats and if played properly you can go against higher level enemies. Even as you've showcased vast majority of the playerbase doesn't even go that high so building for bulk (HP, armor and DR) is enough while weapons can still work at their full potential or close to it (lack of Ability strength is an issue with buffing abilities and so on). However nerfing everything isn't the right choice without alternative options (which again isn't even needed for over 90% of the population anyway as said above) otherwise we are back to the same old invis or Volt shield cheese which is even worse than the current state.
thats because 90% of warframe players arent brainrot maybe, going above lv600 is the most useless thing to do in this game lol carpal tunnel syndrome simulator
@@ioritenshi In most cases sure. The game is designed in a way that most content has a self repeating reward pool every 4 rotations. But ... In niche cases there is a benefit to go for longer. Fissure bonuses give more loot, including steel essence. In Cascade more thrax spawn so you can get more arcanes. Arbitrations remain in C rotations for more endo. Disruption is great for target farming specific tier of relics. If it's pointless to you that's okay. For some it matters tho.
Shield Gating is a bandaid that fixes a problem that would have been harder to fix otherwise. Most enemies at high enough levels will one shot you, no matter what. There's no one shot protection in this game outside of shield gate. It is, in my opinion, unhealthy as outlined in the video. However, it solves a problem that is just as bad to have. Getting one shot with no protection against it invalidates a lot of frames. Shield Gating saved frames like Banshee from getting evaporated. If you don't address the problem Shield Gating tries to, and oversuccessfully, solves then it's not a good idea to remove it just yet. Your suggestions to fix Shield Gate do not address this core issue: The reason we clamored for shield gate in the first place. They only nerf Shield Gating, without considering the problem it addresses. A much better suggestion is a rework of the one shot protection approach, and allow for build variety. I have my own suggestion, stolen from a game that does shield vs armor mechanics better. Warning, textwall below: Completely Rework Shield Regeneration: Shields Now Regen Constantly, only stopping when shields deplete. The Shield Regen is only halted when the shields break. The Shield Regen per second scales with *Maximum* Shields. Whenever shields take damage, a time starts for full replenishing of all shields. This is a rework of Recharge Delay. Instead of Recharge Delay, it is Shield Recharge Cooldown (not to be confused with Natural Regen). Instead of 2 seconds of not taking damage to start regenerating slowly, it's 6-7 seconds to set your shields to max if you are below it. Natural Shield Regen is also turned off until you proc shield recharge when shields break. Including Arcane Aegis, which now is a massive boost to natural regen. Importantly, taking damage doesn't make you start over, but takes away bit of the time you've waited so far. Waited 6 out of 7 seconds but took damage? You gotta wait 4 *more* seconds now. Get hit again immediately? Back to waiting 7 seconds. Full Shield Gate only Restores when Shield Recharge procs. This means Arcane Aegis and Augur/Respite does not replenish your Shield Gate faster. Instead, mods like Fast Deflection replenish it faster, and there's no way to actually speed up this process through gameplay. **Just don't get hit.** Should you somehow get all your shields back externally before the shield recharge? Sure give it the 0.3 seconds gate, the one that would normally keep you immortal under Aegis' regen. Lastly, Cap Damage instances on shield, scaling with higher shield values. The bigger your shields, the more hits it takes to deplete them, but this damage cap on damage instances notably will never be smaller than the shield regen, allowing for death by a thousand cuts even for massive shields. It also doesn't count as a shield gate, it just means you evaporate under heavy fire but can take a bombard rocket as long as your shields are up. This is all stolen from a game that does Shields vs Armor better, and allows for Big Shields vs Small Shield gameplay. Tried and Tested to actually work. Another consequence is Rolling Guard Augur/Respite is still a build, it just works as a way to find cover to wait out your natural Shield Cooldown Delay, giving you that extra cushion against getting one shot after your shields break. It will work regardless of shield values, but is now not overbearing. So people won't have to reforma, just change the way they play slightly. Fast Deflection is now going to be alternative option to using rolling guard that benefits both low and high shields, but for different reasons. Redirection increases how beefy your shields are, while Fast Deflection can make your beefy shields come back faster after a rework to Shield Recharge mod values.
Im kinda confused on the regen part, if you got an extra 3-4 seconds added to your recharge timer wouldn’t shields pretty finicky and useless after the first break? Maybe it works in the game you are talking about but in wf you have tons of enemies, aoe, cc, and tight corridors, there should be some mechanic to start regen or top you up, (also, what is the game you are talking about?)
@@JonathanJ159 It's Nova Drift. In that game damage to the shields doesn't completely restart the timer from zero. Instead a percent of the timer waited so far is chipped by the damage, which can be reduced with modding. It's also a horde shooter. It works there, just a top down shmup, and it's pretty difficult to never ever take damage, just like warframe. However, once you wait a few seconds, there's definitely ways to avoid damage with invuln or similar effects, like Melee Parry or Rolling Guard or Protective Dash. Maybe even buff Parkour to do more. Shields on their own shouldn't be the only way to survive anyway, but part of a larger system, so even when your shields fully deplete, health and armor should also do something, which they currently don't. The video got that right, and I believe we do need to buff health and armor and differentiate it from shields so that shields aren't just blue weak armored health. Shield builds work and have build diversity in Nova Drift, for example. Because Shields and Armor have distinct roles. Shields protect from burst damage (explosions, heavy hits), no matter how you mod for them, and armor+health is good at preventing rapid accumulation of small instances of damage or 'shredding' (beams, rapid guns, pellets). Damage reduction keeps both roles of the health types in Nova Drift functioning better, though it also helps that enemy damage doesn't scale much, but rather their speed and aggression and numbers. The constant regen only turns off either when shields break or with certain mods. And the second you take damage, Shield Cooldown to recharge all shields starts ticking away immediately. Whether your shields are depleted or not. There's big shields with resillient cooldowns and big natural regen, and small shields with shorter cooldown and powerful shield gate mechanics. You can go either or and have a decent shield focused build. There's more of course. Was just using it as an example as one shot protection, and how there's multiple ways to do it and have a modding system that keeps the spirit of it for different 'health bar types'.
I do not think that the problem is with Shield Gating itself but rather how the endgame is now centered around fighting enemies that can one shot you regardless of damage reduction so anything that gives invulnerability became dominant. Its more of the meta being focused on one method while others become less prevalent. In such a case, instead of a shield gating nerf, buffs to other forms of protection should be a better step to add more ways for players to survive. Standard tanking with health and armor along with also making high shield capacity more viable can do more better than taking away one option for high level survivability while leaving little. Also, it wouldn't hurt if we got non-ultra high level endgame activities like raids with a fixed level where the damage is enough to be challenging but not that great that armor is not viable. The lack of proper endgame is what pushed veterans to establish ultra high level steel path and level cap runs as the de-facto endgame, which is why stuff like Shield Gating and Blind Rage low efficiency+Arcane Energize builds are so common. Plus I strongly disagree about how you are overly focusing on team play. Not everybody can afford playing in groups with well optimized setups due to factors like preferring to play solo or bad internet connection. And shield gating gave me a way to play a number of frames in higher level content instead of relying on a select few. You can't deny the fact that Augur mods bring an engaging playstyle where you are encouraged to use abilities more due to survivability being tied to it than just run and gun with Inaros. It also opened up space on my warframe's mod slots as I no longer need to put on steel fiber and vitality on every single Warframe. The build diversity shield gating allows is one of the biggest benefits aside from the active playstyle it encourages.
I mean, a simple solution which would make the most sense to me, since warframe's health pools are fixed numbers, is to have the damage of enemies not increase linearly but having it reached its max. potential way earlier... it should still be very high and require you to use proper builds, evasive manouvers, buffs and debuffs, but be possible to handle without the requirement of invulnerability! You don't get any extras, so why does the damage even scale up untill level cap? You could make the argument that it's nice to have it as feature for challenge runs, but these challenge runs are only possible with one certain build, so it's not a necessarily a challenge, since everyone could do it with the right prerequisites for their equipment and not really require actual skill.
Exactly. Most games work as how you just described or close to that. The base health pools are extremely low and shields are very weak. Plus healing is not a thing in Warframe, besides health globes. DE seems to hate healing for some reason. Also, most games have health regen in some form besides healing, like life on hit or life on kill or life steal.
I actually really like this idea. Only making the enemies tougher physically would still keep the need for removing armor and or shields but having them reach a damage cap at like 120 or 100 or something like that would allow adaptation to be enough in a ton of scenarios.
The investment needed as well as having to sacrifice flexibility nearly balances shield gating in my opinion. You're painting it as "Invincibility" but you need multiple things to be able to use it: -Low shield pool -Low enough efficiency to effectively se the mod, because if you don't restore the shield pool you only get 300ms of shield gate. -Enough energy upkeep to frequently cast abilities and a large enough energy pool to draw from -A brain good enough to pay attention to your shields running out within 1.3 seconds -Rolling guard is usually combined with shield gating to ensure you don't die to toxin or other procs Shield gating is also completely unnecessary under level 150 on the steel path because you can just face tank with certain frames. Having more usable frames instead of just pure tanks makes the game better. I'm open to discussion tho.
no one replied lol. i dead just sold my energize and my shield gating becomes damn near useless without proteas helminth and equilibrium to keep me from wasting all my energy on a single cast just to get one shot striped of all my shields right after and have to cast immediately again, remember i NEED energy to use dispensary and you already know my efficiency is complete garbage. this is me without rolling guard equipped lmao, dont forget the mods i need to use my frames abilities and the slots i have to sacrifice to stay alive. this mf literally just wants the game to be played how HE wants it played. this WF shii get serious no cap. dumbest video i have ever seen, he needs to delete this video.
I agree, the destruction of a nearly guaranteed way to use certain frames in high level content drops the pool of available Viable frames IMMENSELY. Some of my favorite frames, are ones that break if stared at for to long (RIP NOVA, Banshee.) And I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t collect these shiny toys with a 3 day timer to just have them. I’d like to use them as well.
@@jay2wavy215 You are missing the point of the video. If shield gating never existed, the endgame enemies wouldn't have been designed to one-shot you in the first place. Meaning that your Nova/Banshee would have been able to play endgame without shield gating because the game would have been scaled properly. The entire REASON your Banshee/Nova suffers endgame is because DE designed endgame AROUND shield gating. If it didn't exist, they would have properly scaled survivability instead of forcing you to abuse one playstyle.
@@GrrumpyPants seeing as how nova “Is a frame who breaks physically and emotionally when you look at her.” I have to assume 1 of 5 things. 1. Quite a bit has been sacrificed to ensure her survivability. 2. You are utilizing her abilities to augment your survival odds(cudos she’s a massively slept on frame.) 3. Gloom. 4. Your play style is restrictive and or tailor made for your play style. I can’t be sure obviously but you sir accomplished something I could not and I’d live any feedback you may have for her.
Shield gating is a huge problem, but it's a symptom of a bigger problem and some bad design decisions regarding defense. 1. Enemies simply do too much damage at 100+. At these levels, you NEED something that will reduce damage by at least 90% or the game is literally unplayable. Glass cannons cannot exist in WF, because a single Steel Path grineer unit can hitscan delete your entire health pool before you can do anything. In what other game would it be ok for single trash mobs to have enough DPS to kill you in less than one second? I can't think of one that has trash mobs that powerful, unless you can reliably dodge all attacks from trash mobs. It's impossible to make anything but full tank builds when the damage is this high. If shield gating didn't exist, Gara, Nezha, Nova, Rhino, Revenant, Inaros, Mesa, and Health Conversion frames would be the only usable frames at high level content. 2. The game doesn't include ANY viable options other than shield gating. The helminth system basically has no defensive abilities. There is Null-star but it requires *300% ability duration* to get to 90% and starts dropping off as the orbs target enemies to do 1 damage. It also cannot be recast leaving you with no useful defense a long time or use another Mod slot for the augment (after building 300% duration btw). Defy exists I guess; which only offers 750 armor. Parasitic armor only works with a few frames. Adaptation and rolling guard aren't real solutions either. Adaptation doesn't have procs per damage type so it's inconsistent and is best stacked with other types of DR. Rolling guard is basically arson/toxin eximus insurance, because you won't be surviving long with that. Arcanes do not fair much better. There are 4 defensive arcanes worth talking about. Arcane barrier, which is more shield gating, Arcane Guardian which provides 900 armor (Still not enough but better than defy and can be double stacked), Tanker can't be used in most missions, and arcane double back which requires you to constantly bullet jump, double jump, and roll every 3 seconds. Now we can see why shield gating is the default option for every single build in existence. For all intents and purposes, the only real option for frames that don't have 90%DR and can't use Health Conversion is to shield gate, or use Double Arcane Guardian. Nullstar requires too much investment, Defy sucks, Parasitic Armor is only good on like 3 frames, Double back requires constant parkour, Tanker can't be used in missions you'd want it for, Adaptation isn't enough on it's own, and Rolling guard leaves too much of a hole in your defense. Or you can shield gate using 2 mod slots on your secondary (of which the mods are good), use the aura mod slot which is basically free and you're good for literally any level of content, whereas DR starts to fall off when levels get to 500+ anyway. Enemies can have their damage nerfed to allow squishier frames breathing room at least at Steel Path level enemies, and/or they can give alternatives as good as health conversion. The Helminth defy nerf is unecessary. Arcane guardian should be 1500 armor so that you only need to use 1 slot. Nullstar should be recastable, and each cast adds orbs to the existing amount so that you don't have to build 300% duration just to get a shitty version of what defensive frames have. Double back needs it's duration doubled at least from 4 to 8 seconds. Adaptation should give procs for each damage type instead of just the dominant type, but be nerfed to 70% to compensate so that you still need to stack it with other defense. Rollling Guard should add 600 armor during the cooldown. Not enough on it's own but again can be stacked with other defensive options. Also, the helminth system could definitely add some defensive abilities into the mix. Put shatter shield in, but remove bullet reflection and cap it at 70%. Swap in snow globe or splinter storm. If revenant can give the entire team invincibility, being able to helminth some DR is more than fair.
I think the real issue is just that dragon key _(atleast for gating being too godly)_ . cause it completely makes the required amount of energy you need to pump through respite and augur mods absurdly cheap. shield gating as a "no one shots if you have shields" mechanic is fine. it's the rapid abuse-ability that makes it "toxic". "bad" is the wrong kind of descriptive word I think... and also the absurd enemy damage stonks vs health should likely get looked at too. what should/could happen on that front is that armor damage reduction should mean that each hit cannot deal more than that percentage of max health damage to you and offers a brief moment of damage taking stop _(0.1-0.2 secs or so. not much, just so it takes into consideration a whole bunch of hits at once happening)_ . then you could survive a few hits through armor regardless of enemy damage output if you had enough regeneration or other forms of healing, combined with shield gating as it is now minus the key. But shield gating also needs like a brief delay before it comes active again after it's been used (atleast a similar 1.5 seconds of being full with a blue screen tint effect to show shields have hardened and come back), rather than just having the condition being full shields atleast for a nano-second to be it. So you need to take a moment of cover, or shut the enemies down and touch yourself up or need to have a shield restorative ability etc to be able to keep surviving. I'd probably say, cause the shield key is meant to be negative, the shield key should reduce the time that you can shield gate for at maximum at any given time by 75% also. so the 1.3 second becomes only like 0.3 or so normally if the key is in so it remains a technical negative, as a "challenge" item equip as it's meant to have been for the vault opening etc. other protective measures could be the dodge and parkour movement damage reductions and accuracy reductions getting a touch up so you can somewhat effectively dodge, or "graze" damage away by being tricky and on the move when in the open. Like if taking damage while rolling the damage tick gate is extended until the roll ends so you can't take anymore damage mid roll if you need to yeet yourself through a death cloud or a swarm of enemies, or bullet jumping effectively deflecting small arms fire from weaker foes. big arms fire like beams and rockets would still hit. but cheesy hitscan grineer and projectiles from corpus would be avoided. so on and so forth.
My major issue with shield gating is that on many frames it completely invalidates their own intended survival or dmg reduction abilities. Why invest mods and formas into armor and dmg reduction abilities when I can just shield gate? Granted the latest frame works beyond lvl 100 with its dmg reduction and other frames like Nidus have no shields but in return are probably among my favorite frames to play because of their unique gameplay. Sure, making every frame like Nidus is a bit of a stretch but at least offer different viable end game approaches to your frames survival for higher lvl, be it shields, amor and health or the warframes unique abillities.
So you want everyone become Inaros because you don't like other people use shield gating as a source of surviving. Just a few problems with that logic. Shield gating is not something that everyone can just abuse, because you need to understand how to play your build properly in order to use the shield gating in the middle of your killing process, is not just spam buttons and hope things to die while being invencible, if you can't regen your shield to max in one cast you will probably die when your shield breaks again, if you don't know which ability can recover your shield to full, you will probably die too, if you didn't pay attention to your shield breaking you will probably die, if you just for a fraction of a second step on a toxin cloud, you're dead, if you didn't pay attention at your energy going low, you're probably dead. What you and this guy are asking for is to everyone become a brain dead health tank that only need to stay there and exist to tank, that involves 0 focus, 0 skills, and 0 effort, it's the most lazy and boring way to survive, and still, if you're not playing on long endurance runs you can still survive without a problem with a health tank build, damn my Inaros can survive for more than 1 hour in Circulus SP without even being close to die, but you know what? IS BORING AS HELL. My Nidus can do the same, still broing as hell, Wisp? no problem i just stay on my plants and that's it, Atlas? just spam 1, Revenant, just press 2, Rhino, just press 2, Hildryn, press 2, Ivara, press 3 put a dashwire and stay there to the end. Sure, you're not killing that much as an Equinox or a Saryn or a Gyre on SP, but they need to do a lot more than press 1 ability or just exist (Inaros) to survive to the same things. My major issue with people crying about shield gating is the fact that you prefer a more lazy and braindead way to survive, while you don't even go on long endurance runs where shield gating builds are suppose to go.
@@CrisHermetica Didn't say that nor did I mention Inaros and what your saying I want is based on presumptions you dump on me. I'd rather they make mechanics around health and/or armor that makes them enjoyable and valuable to build towards with their own synergies. They reworked how shields worked and I would like for the devs to take a look at health and armor as well. Simple as that.
@@MrCemicalX And why should they do that? armor and health doesn't scale, but is more than enough combined with adaptation to base SP, it's around 300 to 400 lvl that it stop working so well, and around 1 hour of survival on Circulus SP is not enough to reach that lvl. Most people don't stay more than 30 min on survival, 1 hour is even less people, and enough time to reach those lvls is less than 10% of the player base. Why DE should make something with health and armor scaling when there is not enough people that reach a lvl of enemies enough to actually kill them with just health tanking? Not to mention that like i said armor and health scaling shouldn't be touched because if they actually buff that, it would be broken. Warframe players always want a more optimal or easiest way to play, give them something that give them enough survival power with health and armor that don't involve them to pay attention to details or play around a 1.3 sec of invulnerability and that will be the only thing they will do. And if you want them to nerf enemies scaling, then they need to nerf everything involving health, armor, dr, damage redirection, and invulnerability to the ground, and even then, players will find a way to survive with an easier strat. That's it, nerfing/removing shield gating will only bring builds like combo count melee builds, boring, more of the same, no identity, no min maxing, no flexibility and braindead. Do you remember how endless survival was back when shield gating wasn't a thing? Volt shield, Mag bubble, Frost bubble, Zenistar or Octavia mellet, boring strat that involved everyone finding one spot and staying there for hours without moving a finger just spaming the same shit over and over again, the most boring and lame gameplay that i ever did. Now at least we can move, we can fight and even when we still playing at the edge while using shield gating, every build feels different, every build has identity, and you don't need to stay in one place doing a braindead strat to survive. Remove shield gating and you're just encouraging people to play the same shit all over again.
Shield gating is nice imo. Now you can take squishy frames on high level content solo. DE just need to buff armor or the tanks to scale in endurance runs
Nerfing shield gating without an insane gamplay and enemy level rework destroys all high level build variety. Then it really will be only invisible frames+ eclipse to level cap. Also, I assume you have problems with rolling guard and vazerin since its even longer and more free invincibility? It only hurts levelcap players. Just because some bad support abilities were made doesnt mean you have to decrease survivability to the rest of the cast. You can make a health tank build and have fun if you want. I love my nova health tank i made for a video. Again im fine with a rework on how enemy damage works in the game and shield gating but not just nerfing shield gating. Something needs buffed, not nerfed Good video though. I realize im in the minority since i care about builds for level capping. Its just the most fun to theory craft
100% agree. Shield gating has people running around with a debuff key. I wouldn't mind shield gating that had a separate timer debuff rather than relative to shields. There's clearly a problem when armor and health are useless stats.
Preach it. I'm genuinely partial to the 40%/25% nerf simply because that would make the mod set feel more like it did at inception- as slight buffs to various stats you might want buffed, with a small, SMALL, bonus from the set bonus. The set felt fine back then, but now the main purpose for them is the set bonus thanks to gating and that just sucks. Also I could be mis-remembering but I'm pretty sure modern gating isn't nearly that old. I'm pretty sure the 1.3 second no-insta-die adjustment was like late 2019 to 2020, not as long ago as 2017, but I can't pretend the change was memorable enough to stick out so that's just needless rambling. Also a number squish would be nice in general since the exponential growth has allowed a lot to slip by lol.
Number squish, especially damage, would make a lot of sense because most frames have VERY low health, and armor and shields deplete almost instantly. I think warframe shields should be different than other shields in the game and be a lot tankier.
Great points across the board! I think if shield gating has to still be in the game, the protection provided should be proportional to the amount of shield lost. You know, increasing shields makes you tougher instead of decreasing? So maybe every 100 shields lost from a hit (or in the last fraction of a second) gives 0.10 seconds of shield gating or something like that. The goal was to prevent getting one-shotted through shields to make shields more viable, this actually incentivizes getting more shields to that end. I agree about nerfing the myriad of 90% damage reduction sources... It is pretty insane. I might take all of them down to 75% (though your ~50% idea isn't unreasonable) with the exception of armor if I ran the circus.
I agree with the shield gating thing idk why you get punished for having more shields but nerfing damage resist would only increase shield gating and it’s use also damage resist still needs healing to back it up or you’ll get chipped down and especially in SP that’ll happen quicker than you think
@@empiyrr2133 The implication with nerfing the 90% damage reduction (DR) sources is, I think, that incoming enemy damage would be lowered more or less proportionally. As Semtexagon illustrated in the video, a frame like Voruna with no 90% DR in her kit absolutely has to rely on shield gating or she is taking 10x as much damage as a frame like Citrine. DE has painted themselves into a corner with this where every new frame needs a 90% reduction or it feels squishy. Alternate survivability strategies like Voruna's break-on-attack invisibility or Gyres try-to-CC-everything are not really viable, and shield gating is currently filling the gap. Reducing these DR values to 75% or 50% would mean we are near a design space where a "squishy" character is taking either 4 times or 2 times as much damage as one with a DR ability instead of 10 times as much. Now there is a possibility of reasonably implementing alternative survivability options. This is all from the perspective of Steel Path non-endurance, which is the de facto balancing point at this time in Warframe.
are you guys really complaining about people being able to be powerful? the video literally has a part about fucking power fatigue where he goes on about how everyone is hidding how tired of being powerful they are with(i assume) a straight face... may god be merciful so that there is no one on DE with this level of insanity in their minds
I don't think it's Shield Gating that's causing these types of problems. I think it's the fact that they built the game to be borderline impossible to survive at later levels due to one-shot potential. Hildryn was the first instance of Shield Gating and the community raved about it since it provided a way to survive the one-shots in endurance content. With the introduction of steel path and content that started at higher levels (starting at 100+) becoming common something like shield gating was an inevitability. Even with 90% damage reduction many high level enemies still deleted players from full HP/Shields. Warframe is in an iffy situation, doing a number squish will do almost nothing for them in the long run. If they keep going the way they are it'll cause problems down the road in terms of build variety and health (moreso than it already has). One thing they should definitely do though is either remove the dragon-keys and adjust where corrupted mods come from or make the keys only work on missions with vaults, doing so would help with the gating cheese. As a bunch of people have said, healing eventually becomes inefficient as you'll get one-shot anyway. Because of this, stuff like Gloom isn't too much of an issue.
You have it backwards. The reason endgame was designed to one-shot you is BECAUSE shield gating existed. The developers knew that One-Shot enemies was the only way to create the facade of a challenge because shield gating exists. If shield gating wasn't in the game, the enemies would have never been designed to one shot you in the first place.
@@RuecianGray As someone who played WAY WAY WAY before shield gating was a thing, I still remember when hyldrin released and she was considered very strong as a tank and support specifically because of it, you are factually wrong. Enemies on high level nodes could, and would, usually just blow you up if you had no way of mitigating the damage. It's the reason stuff like Ironskin and Warding Halo builds were so desirable. Without shield gating people would be bitching about being oneshot again.
Nice vid, I like your idea about rebalancing DR and enemy damage numbers. What about this idea - the shield gate invincibility duration scales with your total shield pool. So for example someone with a decaying key that has 75 shield would only get an invincibility duration of ~ 0.5 seconds. But say you have 2000 total shields then you get ~ 3 second invincibility duration. This would actually incentivize frames like Mag, Volt, Caliban who can regenerate a lot of shields to actually build for them. It's always seemed silly to me that the best survivability tactic is to lower your effective hp amount
Frames like mag and others who can generate a lot of shield fast don't really need to build for shields, cos usually they can also generate that fat stack of 1,2k overshields. adaptation tends to be a lot better than redirection as a mod for such frames, and building for power strenght (and sometimes range) so you can regenerate that shield back really fast. On the other hand, you can play those frames to rely on CC, not survivability to stay alive. Kind of how frames like Xaku, Gyre, Banshee and Mirage works. They all get more or less blown up instantly even at sortie level content if you get hit while shield gate is out.. to be fair, mirage has her clones to confuse enemies and xaku has that 75% evade chance, but gyre and banshee rely 100% on cc. Best possible extra survivability for such frames you can give is rolling guard.
To be fair so many enemies can one shot you nowadays that standing around and just pressing one button isn't possible for most players' energy economies. That's why movement and cc (eximus exists so you still have to be aware) works hand in hand with shield gating making it a much more active gameplay design as opposed to armor where you just face tank stuff or invisibility where you just press one button.
You could still require players to do all of that stuff by making enemies hit hard but not so hard that you literally die in 2-3 hits and that would free up tons and tons of room for more playstyles and support abilities to be relevant. The reason enemies one-shot you is because DE designed them knowing that shield gating exists. If shield gating never existed, the enemies wouldn't have been designed with the ability to one shot you in the first place. That is why shield gating is the source of the bad game design choices.
Shield gating isn’t needed 95% of the time and is mostly used for level cap. It’s not brainless I am invincible thing because you gotta learn how to time it and use it right. If shield gating gets nerfed so level cap will probably be impossible so I don’t see the point of this video. Stop asking for nerfs out of no where but then again this is coming from a guy who had the worst tier list for warframe so it's kind of expected.
He probably didn't even played level cap pre shield gating, and come to think of it. level capping pre shield gating must be BORING. the closest playstyle I could think of is camping. which is inarguably the worst playstyle in Warframe.
The only Warframe ive ever used shield gating for that doesn't have shield regeneration abilities (like mag) is Khora. I hate shield gating strats and i hate that whenever you complain about a frame being weak the solution offered to you is just abuse shield gating. With Khora, you already want to spam whipclaw to deal inconsistent but high damage aoe strikes to enemies, so she is the only frame i use that makes sense to use shield gating but its still a tense, spammy playstyle. Steel path and level cap runs is what spawned shield gating strats to be more spread around and popular, and it makes sense. Unless you are using mag you are not going to easily regain your shield gate. Defense frames like Citrine can survive a long time without needing shield gate, but if you want to push her further into higher levels you do start to need it. So in conclusion its not necessary for 95% of players, is annoying to use, and is required for very high levels. Also frames that have no shields become useless as they don't have that ability too lol.
Oh also the problem with caliban is his stupid summons don't give him shield constantly, if your shield breaks you have to wait until they start naturally recharging again to regain shields, unlike protea who can just pick up another shield grenade to instantly gain shield and start recharging them. His summons should do the same, then i would use him.
Not just armor but all stats. The shields get destroyed way too quickly and most frames have minuscule health pools. When enemies do thousands of damage per shot 350 HP is absolutely nothing. That's why they introduced shield gating, because DE devs are extremely lazy and they prefer to never actually balance or fix anything because it's too much work for them. Most games have balanced survivability mechanics, I can give one game as an example that I played a lot, it's Diablo 3. The game balances health recovery and damage reduction pretty well (or it used to before buffing gear sets to oblivion). In short, I'll give an example: where is life recovery on hit in this game? You have like 2 or 3 mods for that.
@@AMV_KINGDOM_mv And I was talking about armor. So, do you think we can survive with armor alone? It is technically an 'another way to survive' just like what you said. But, I will ask again, can you survive with armor alone?
@@VitchAndVorty if you need to narrow it down to "can you survive on armour alone" you're a moron who is just bad. you shouldn't be able to survive on armour alone.
There's an issue with this.... If you remove those, all the warframes that were "fixed" With shield gating are going to Feel awful to play again.... So it would create more work for DE to do, which im not sure they like? XD. Maybe not nerf those things but change them instead, allowing them to work only on frames that have low health and/or armor, while buffing armor so it scales better and doesnt need other mods like adaptation (one thing they could do is making armor more impervious to status effects, reducing the effectiveness of them the higher it is)
Defense stats and modding need to be separated like in most games that are made by sane designers. They actually did it for railjack but thats probably cause its a ship. As it is, either frames have the right combo of stats and abilities or they only have shield gate or they only need a high DR/ignore/dodge ability in their kit to work with. Anything else dies to a lvl 100 fart. Man if we had any semblance of balance then maybe Protea's ult wold actually be useful for damage reversal.
A simple fix would be to have shield gatte have an inner CD. Although i think the issue lie deeper withing the game core aspect, enemies design and overall is simply badly done the game lack clarity (what enemies does what / which attack hit you / scalling) getting rid of shield gatting (or perhaps making it a specific mod with condition / CD) would be better but to do so they would need to rework everything. (with they should if you only take game design into account, sadly it would cost to much money and time to do so)
Thing is, what I get from this, is that the survivability, damage and enemy lvl aspects in Warframe itself are broken and shield gating is just the band aid. So by just removing shield gating it would just unveil a massive wound within the game's balance. And the game would bleed to death in a few days. If they remove shield gating they had to overhaul the entire enemy leveling system and how Armor, DR and just damage in general works. And aside from the fact that I see DE incapable of doing that considering how their most recent upgrades looked like and how obvious it is that the game grew beyond their control, if you basically have to overhaul entirely how the named aspects (DR, Dam, Survivability, Enemy Lvl) work, you'd also have to rework loot and grind, due to how different the game would feel like and have to massively compensate players who basically lost all their builds. Tl;Dr: If DE wanted to remove Shield, they'd have to overhaul the ENTIRE game. So I guess it's shield gating or bust.
TL; DR : - Shield Gating not a problem but the abuse of it is - Instead of protecting itself from ennemies or killing them during Shield Gate, the players restore their shields to keep an invulnerability loop - Using the Decaying Dragon Key is a strong game design issue and must be nerfed Solutions : - Higher Percentage Based Shield Regeneration (Mods and Abilities must be tweaked) - Shield Regen cooldown on Shield Gate reduced to 2 sec - Invulnerability time must scales with Base Shields bounded from below at 1 sec - On Shield Gate : Inability to restore shields except from Natural Regeneration until a certain amount of shields is reached - Overshield Gate : When losing overshields, there is a weaker version of shield gate giving 1 sec of Invulnerability but overshields cannot be earned for 5 sec My opinion and ideas : I fully understand the issues created by Shield Gating. The thing is that Shield Gating in itself is not problematic at all, it is when the players found how to abuse it that the problem started. Shield Gating was introduced as a way to prevent +100 level ennemies from 1-Shotting a large majority of the Warframes in the game. In the period of time granted by the Shield Gate, the player must either : cover himself out of the fire of the ennemies or try to eliminate the source of the damage, not trying to refill its own shield to repeat the process. But then, the players found that they have mods that allows to keep the invulnerable state without any counterpart. They even turned the Decaying Dragon Key, an item providing a debuff as a challenge to get the Corrupted Mods to improve the efficiency of this method. I repeat they used an item DESIGNED AS A DEBUFF to make their frames EASILY INVULNERABLE (am I the only one that see the problem here). To solve this, I see many options : First, the Shield Regen must be more percentage based, making Frames with High Shields and Shield Based Builds tank more damage. Actually, the perfect frame for Shield Gate theoretically is a Frame with 1 Shield which sounds really wierd. This also solve the problem of the Dragon Key that return to its Vault-opening function and the time between the 2 Shield Gates common to all Warframes. Also, we reduce the 4 sec of no damage taken delay between the shield gate and the start of the shield regeneration to 2 sec. This also implies some changes for the Shield Regeneration Mods and Abilities. Let's say Warframes regenerate 10% of their shields per second. Secondly, the invulnerability should match with the amount of base shields at Rank 0. We could go with Max Shields or depleted shields but that would be unfair between Grendel and its 75 Shields and a full modded Hildryn Prime with its 6300 shields, that is why I chose to go over Base Shields. I chose a base of 100 shields = 1 sec of invulnerability, bounded from below at 1 sec of invulnerability to allow frames like Grendel with really low shields to benefit from Shield Gating. However, to counter balance this, the Shield Gate gives a debuff that prevent Shield Regeneration by any means except Natural Shield Regeneration until a certain amount of shields is reached (Let's say 40%, equivalent to 5 seconds). This debuff is only valid when Shield Gate is triggered obviously. Bonus "Overshield Shield Gate" (Overshield Gate) : When breaking the Overshield, the Warframe benefit from a weaker version of Shield Gate which grants 1 sec of invulnerability and the impossibility to earn Overshields for 5 sec. This may be a little bit confusing so let's see some examples. For them, we suppose that the base Shield Regeneration is about 10% of the Frame Max Health per sec. I will mostly consider 1-Shot Cases as it's the most common use of Shield Gating Example : Excalibur without shields mods : 300 Shields (100 Base Shields at Rank 0) => 30 Shield Regen per sec If shields get One Shotted, he gets 1 sec of invulnerability and 6.5 sec of inability to regain shields except from Natural Regeneration. After the shield gate expired, Excalibur must still wait 1 sec at 0 Shields to start regenerating naturally his shields. If Excalibur didn't take any damage, then he regenerated 150 Shields before being able to regenerate shields by any means possible. However, he still needs 6.5 more seconds to fully restore his shields naturally. In the end, Excalibur spent 6.5 seconds in danger if he used the Squad Shield Restore or 12 sec if he didn't over 13 sec. If Excalibur is modded with redirection, nothing changes except the amount of shields restored before being able to regenerate his shields by any mean possible. Example 2 : Hildryn Prime : 1660 Shields (475 Base Shields at Rank 0) => 166 Shields Regen per sec If shields get One Shotted, she gets 4.75 sec of invulnerability and 6.5 sec of inability to regain shields except from Natural Regeneration. After the shield gate expired, Hildryn already started to regenerate 456 of her shields naturally. If Hildryn didn't take any damage, then she regenerated 665 Shields before being able to regenerate shields by any means possible. However, he still needs 6.5 more seconds to fully restore his shields naturally. In the end, Hildryn spent 1.75 seconds in danger if she used the Squad Shield Restore or 8.25 sec if she didn't over 13 sec. We can note that due to Hildryn using Shields as Energy, her passive must be tackled to make her more playable in this context.
I feel like the issue is that we need better damage balancing overall in the game, it's not just the shield gating fact. It's the fact that we have enemies who kill too easy to do things to a high level degree, and the fact that weapons if built right can just melt anything with modding it the right way. It's mostly become less of a challenge that requires coordination and more of a numbers game to make it easier to get things done.
True, the game is not balanced. All games face power creep at some point and if it is not solved it slowly ruins the game. DE, like usual, prefers to patch things instead of fixing the actual problem and giving passive solutions. Like mods and augments. It's so lazy.
I just want to see support frames be needed in steel path. I love playing support, but anyone who can take on level 100+ tends to not need any support to accomplish it. I've been playing a lot of harrow, I can provide health, energy, i-frames and critical chance. Does anyone need it? No. They shield gate and face tank with the i-frames.
Unfortunately making a game where distinct roles shine is ... beyond Warframe at this point, I think. It would require a complete and total overhaul of player health, damage reduction abilities, enemy damage, enemy EHP, status, etc. I don't think DE wants to or even CAN do that almost a decade into the game's life, especially because they keep f***ing leaning into the problems with their releases.
It's impossible, make support more relevant is needed but make them needed for steel path ? No, remember they're still some people who play solo, like it or not if those people enjoy the game like that. Me for exemple I play with some friends but we not always play at the same time, so if we need support for steel path I jsut can't farm steel essence just because of that ? (If it's look offensive sorry my english is bad :x), they need to take that in consideration so yeah impossible
Harrow mechanics make it a solo frame as in group the other members simply negate your playstyle and flow. I have no issues bringing Trinity or Wisp in to SP and be effective...
@CH1KN _Tenders varies depending on light level. The values displayed are only max potential values. Also losing or getting it depending on what is arbitrarily decided to be light or shadow depending on what drugs the designers were in when they were assigning light maps.
Like more ways of healing, for example I would like life on hit and life on kill to be a thing. Even life steal. There are like 3 mods that do that and badly.
For me, the problem is not really shield gating. The issue is: 1 shield gate can be spammed. 2 the scaling curve that make impossible to balance high and low level because of the difference between them and that allow enemies to OS you. 3 cc frame have no defense against eximus without it. 4 health and armor tanking is not effective enough (and before you say passive defense is bad, i agree but who said it has to be passive (parasitic armor of helminth or the arcane that boost health on hp overflow)). And to fix them I would. 1 add a small cooldown slightly longer than the duration. 2 make it so that the curve is flatter the higher you go (also cap status tic damage by a % of player health). 3 make the overshield give cc resistance instead of immunity (downgrade the effect of cc to a lower one or give a limit on the duration with a timed immunity when coming out of a cc). 4 technically could be solved by 2 but could also add a helminth ability or arcane or mods that give scaling health (compared to enemy dps on you in a certain duration) if you do something specific (again it has to be active (not like defi pre wukong rework).
Shield gating doesn't need to be removed, it just needs tweaking. At the very least, it shouldn't be an incentive to purposely nerf your own shields with a decaying dragon key. I think it should be the other way around and reward bigger shield pools instead, that way it could scale a bit higher while actually having an opportunity cost.
I definitely agree on this state of things being DE watering everything down to what is more convenient. You can decide not to follow the meta, but it's still the only real efficient alternative and it sucks.
Don't necessarily agree with all of this but you're right about the revenant augment, affinity range is ridiculous, they could've at least made you sacrifice some strength for good range
No, they made a good augment and you guys are bitching about it. Shield gating saved warframe and made the game better. Short story is shield gating gave survivability to warframes that didn’t have it.
The argument in itself is flawed. why on earth would someone care for a mechanic that doesn't even affect the whole teamplay of Warframe at all? I mean sure teamplay is nigh inexistent but MAYBE DE should focus on making adjustments to that instead of shield gating? making teamplay an actual teamplay. making the "roles" of each frame an absolute NECESSITY in a team. that could ease down players cheesing the mechanic.
I dont use shield gating at all, one of those things i ignore since i dont feel i need it for normal gameplay. i recently completed the steel path with Volt and Octavia. My volt has no defensive mods, i rely completely on holding a shield and crowd control. teamwork died a long time ago when Relics replaced Voidkeys. Power creep didnt hit yet, and to do well in T4 defense or survival you needed 4 players with highly specific builds cooperating and relying on each other. i finished farming hildryn with minimal interaction with players. spammed Ukko and Hepit with Titania for lith, meso, and neo. And would leave Apollo at wave 8, since most randoms cant go beyond that and there isnt much point to staying longer. Lockdown or Snare Demolishers, glaive them a few times and you win. i could have done that solo too, but its a bit faster with randoms. Until recently ive always played with an extremely basic mesa build or stand around as octavia. because of relics and the way rewards are delivered, staying longer in anything other than survival is just a waste of time and completely optional. so shield gating existing or being removed, im entirely neutral on its impact.
I say don't bring shield gating down, just bring everything else out of irrelevancy. Shield gating is not inherently a bad mechanic, it's a lack of real alternative for survivability in endgame content for most frames. They need reworks, to change augments, etc. Also don't forget switch/console/controller players often need crutches like Mesmer shield to even compete with PC players.
i can understand where you are coming from but i think the main issue is simply enemy damage. unlike armor, hp and shields their damage scales with no attenuation to the point where past a certain point damage reduction becomes utterly worthless , changing enemy dmg to the point where it caps past a certain level (only between enemies and frame not between enemies and objects or enemies and specters) is the way to go. additionally every frame should get access to high dmg reduction maybe in the form of a 90% dr helminth that can only be applied on frames that dont have a dr ability of their own (similar to how u cant put xw and roar on the same frame), if that where to be done frames like voruna would be able to survive while also leaving shield gate intact. but this brings us to the question : "why should i use dr over shield gating if shield gating makes me 100% invulnerable?" well unlike damage reduction shield gating would need u to be constantly casting abilities to keep up ur shields plus it would still have its 2 main weaknesses : 1 reliance on energy , as de showed us they can very easily take away our energy like in energy drain modifier during disruption 2 toxin damage , toxin directly bypasses shields in both its damage and its proc de could make missions where every enemy has toxin damage and where damage reduction will be better since shield gating will not work (sorry for any grammatical error english isnt my first language)
It’s a band aid, a coverup to the fact DE is not always on point with creating well rounded frames that can survive a moderate amount of damage. I personally hate it, but it’s better than having nothing at all. People who like pressing an ability button EVERYTIME they’ve been damaged are insane.
Shield gating is not the problem ... Most of the frame rely on that but the real question is why ? and if you look, armor is USELESS and I stop there since just a change on how armor work can make health viable for tanking so it diversify the build. And the best exemple INAROS ... I love this frame, I can't use it on archon hunt without getting destroy in a millisecond, and with a max arcane guardian proc... so before thinking about any nerf they must need to buff armor. But yeah if we look from afar they need to rebalance almost all the game so ... SAD
Yes. I love Inaros and I would use him more often if he would have a health gate mechanic or passive. Maybe if he takes more than 90% of total health in one hit make him invulnerable for at least the shield gate duration or up to 3 seconds? And give that a cooldown. That's the most basic fix, or maybe actually make his passive scale and be useful?
I'm not sure it's fair to discuss shield gating as the worst thing to happen to warframe because it makes you 100% invincible, without also discussing the other sources of gaining damage invulnerability that are significantly more effective. Like, Rolling Guard users can just push the roll button and get three seconds of invincibility every seven. Vazarin operators can just void sling to get five seconds of invulnerability, with enough time to recharge operator energy and do the same infinitely. If shield gating wasn't the way to become invincible, those who would abuse it would just go to the next source of damage invulnerability. Sure, the fact that shield gating just happens as you use abilities is pretty bad, but pushing a button or two and achieving the same is also pretty bad, and I don't see DE nerfing that many mods, or nerfing a focus tree, or reworking health again any time soon.
Only frame i use shield gating is with my Hildryn, jokes aside, DE has lost the touch of balance and fun, SP is a joke, they just cracked the modifiers and let the players decide to play it or not, they should start making smarter enemies, or enemies that counter the tenno features, we have some in zariman that disable the WF entirely, we need more types of enemies. augur made all those mods that increase shield regen obsolete. i think it is more than time that DE make shield have some resistance and work with armor, not directly, but the hit that would break the shield would be heavily nerfed by shield resistance and the armor, would be cool to have mod that increase shield and give some effect , like when broke, blind enemies, or stun, release a shock. Anyway the first case of shield gating i remember is the OG starcraft , where a ghost attacking a carrier would create it, if the carrier had all armor and shield upgrades , it would mean the ghost 7 dmg attack would be 3 consumed by the 1 point of shield it regen between attacks and 3 by armor, so the atack does 1 damage.
@@semtexagon yep, it is kind of funny DE did something like that, mag has the attractor that attract bullets , but only bullets, so beam and energy weapon bypass it. It is also ironic that when DE changed slash to affect shield before health, it nerfed players killing, but also removed the enemy way to bypass shield aside toxic status, i remember how frustrating it was to die with full shield because i got too many slash damage from heavy gunners, so i used rapid resilience or the anti slash arcane, but today is just shield gating to not die.
Let's take a quick trip down memory lane to the days when tier III void keys runs required every enemy on the map to be crowd controlled in some way because if even 1 enemy wasn't it could wipe the squad. I'm talking back when the void Lazer consoles in the defense tile were actually monitored and used to effectively clear the defense wave. I'm talking back when Nyx was the defense meta. Those missions were a slog to get through, and the entire consisted of dumping endless rounds into massive stationary health pools. There is a reason the game was pushed away from that playstyle. You can argue the pendulum swung a little to far, but for the love of Void you do not want it to even inch too far the other way.
LR2 with anything unlocked here. I guess i made peace with playing shieldgating, i'm just sad that with overall powercreep i don't find a way to be a reliable / helpful support playing Oberon. I also don't understand how some people judgement became so twisted that they dub as "unplayable / shit" anything that doesn't breeze through level cap like it was more important than having fun in 99.9% of the rest of the game. So yeah i'm kinda with you on this one, albeit not hopeful to see any change.
Shield gating is good for squishy warframes like gyre... But any time someone has told me to put a decaying dragon key on warframes like fucking styanax for even base steel path I've gotten desires for acts of incredible violence. Honestly they should just re scale enemy damage and defensive abilities to allow tanks to, well, fucking tank again
Not just armor builds but shield builds and health builds as well. And we need more ways to gain resistance, I don't mean straight damage reduction but elemental and physical res.
@@futavadumnezo Sure, but we have limited mod slots, it's definitely going to be put into build considerations if "resistance" modifiers are at play, but then again, damage scaling. it doesn't matter if you can resist if you're going to be hit with a 1m damage from a random mob/damage from an elemental tick.
Hundreds of mods and u dont need any of them, just the 10-15 for every frame. Why designing anything new if have no use... Im not using shield gating, cause dont need for SP 1h+ missions and im not willing to play that long in the same boring mission when mobs die by a small sneez. This is just sad IMHO. Back then before SP i quited from WF for long time cause i refuse to stay in missions for 2-3 hrs long to see a little bit of difficult increase, now i feel the same with SP. :( I want an option where a host can select example the defense mission starting wave like 1 / 6 / 11 and so on up to whatever u want. Wasting time for low drop chance rewards till the chance increase and yet the mission is still about being AFK and just sneez on mobs time to time and the whole map die.
@@futavadumnezo because that's what damage scaling does, and our health and damage reduction don't cut it anymore aster a certain point, CC is put of the question because the most dangerous enemies are immune to it, only solution is temporary invulnerability and shield gate is the most effective
One thing I like about warframe is that you can play the game however u like. And I've played thru the majority of the content in this game without ever using or knowing how to sheild gate. For newer or casual players, don't feel like you NEED to sheild gate. And to players that think sheild gating is fun.. keep doing it, the game is PvE so ur not affecting anybody else negatively. GGs guys. Love to see the community so active
I kinda like the shield gating mechanic and I use it, but I dont abuse it. Never run hobbled dragon key, but I tend to throw one or two augur mods on my build just for the stats. Augur reach, secrets and message are all kinda solid mods for lower capacity to queeze in without negative side effects so I can get one or two extra short invulnerability phases if I end up in a bad spot. but usually my first instinc is to get out of the situation, cos I don't build for high efficiency usually so I could spawm abilities to stay alive forever with just shield gates. with the exception when I play protea, I might sit on her shield satellites when thrown sometimes if I need to be a meat shield for defence target or something.
I didn't even knew how to shield gate until yesterday, and I have 1000 hours lol Never cared to know about it since I was used to play tank or heavy cc frames
I see your point of view on shield gating, and yeah it's boring as hell to see every new frame's debut build video from all these creators practically require those mods and key, but it requires a higher skill ceiling to be able to keep the rotations up, keep your energy up while still dealing enough damage to keep up with high level enemies. Since all enemies in the game aside from the melee units or entity projectiles have hitscan weapons and near perfect accuracy, it's an absolute must for frames with little to no armor or survivability options at high levels. Many frames wouldn't stand a prayer to go a full 4 rotations of steel path without it. But the way I see it, like you said of there being only 3 types of frames in the game, I see shield gating as the antithesis of the heavily armored, shielded or tanky frame. One style rewards bolstering survivability in the form of armor, shields, and abilities, shield gating frames can allow less defense focused frames the ability to reach those points in the game as well, in the form of highly resource heavy builds, and the main issue of maintaining that energy gain through fast paced play and attention to your shields as well as ability rotations. Getting knocked on your back bc you didn't use the unairu tree for poise or PSF is a quick way to burn a revive in a mission. It kind of puts me in mind of Dragon Age Inquisition in a sense with shields and armor. Shield being magic based and granted by individual spells or passives, and armor, gained by physically engaging with your enemies with your abilities. Both are volatile temporary health pools with different approaches to maintain them without dipping into health that is more troublesome to restore than shields or armor (since healing pots were a limited stock between camp visits, but it could also be loosely equated to revives in warframe) To me, it feels like warframes DR abilities and mods behave like one 'class' sort of like a warrior in other RPGs (although it would be the opposite by DA:I's perspective) while the fast paced energy hungry casting frames allow you the rush of faster paced play while feeling like the enemy can't keep up with you to take you out (bc that's much easier to implement than a momentum based margin for error in enemy shots when so many enemies have flawless aimbot.) I also think it's pretty cool that these options for survivability are in the game, without being a specific role you're locked into like other games. That being said, the disparity in effectiveness of each tactic is plain to see, but I also think it is fitting that the more difficult path of high risk high reward of shield gating is more viable into endurance levels. And while synergies between frames helping the other survive is fun, I don't want all of the higher level content and rewards require another person at a similar point of progression as myself, or to have the will to form a cohesive plan or play a set role, just to play the game. Archon hunts are especially one of these moments, bc I hate loading into public matches and have 3 randoms trigger 3 separate keys, and most if not all being woefully incapable of downing any of the demos. I know I kinda wrote a book, but I guess the TL;DR is: I personally enjoy the shield gating mechanics, and it's more demanding builds and style is a decent payoff, but it lends another layer to how you play Warframe, even if some setups are a bit too comfortable to the point of being able to survive with minimal effort.
disagree that SG is 'ruining' WF , but i do understand the problem of homogenization ; similarly i build rolling guard and prime sure footed on almost every frame , are those also problems? XD [maybe, but not the same] ; remove the incentive for running the decay key , ie more shields equals longer SG invul window and less is shorter , a linear equation keeps this balanced , simultaneously raises the incentive for the +recharge mods which have been lackluster for years [some more interesting dual stat mods could help with this] ; tangentially what WF needs more than nerfs to squishy survival options is for high-tier challenges besides excruciatingly long endurance runs [ie we need a challenge that doesnt require gaming on the toilet or going afk for 3-4+ hours before the game gets dangerous] ie there is nothing ingame that needs max builds , not archons , not eidolons , nothing , so whats the point of having a min-max'd build? it just makes the content that you were doing before with your subpar build easier , that is lackluster and has been for awhile , Steel Path was weaksauce and implemented poorly/lamely , it needs to be iterated upon and it needs to be dynamic [ie getting progressively more and more difficult thru various different means on a consistent level the more you play it , ie a progressive challenge that demands/requires the tenno to step or get rekt'd]
i'm fine with shield gating being good(especially for the squishier frame), however i don't like it for the fact that it render armor and health obsolete. why pump your health and armor up when you can just say no to any damage.
@@futavadumnezo because Shield gating IS A PASSIVE, that's why I don't get the uploader talking about shield gating as if it's some sort of ability. it's not. anyone can use it(but it's not like everyone should)
A point id like to address in this video is the Decaying Dragon Key that every one uses , that should be changed, not shield gating. Why? Its simple, it represents a negative as in a challenge for a special reward, not as a positive for the hole game to abuse. DE Should add a secondary debuff like "You can gain shields ONLY by regeneration" or thing like this. Shield gating is making more warframes viable, than making supports useless. With 2400 H in shield gating help me use more frames than just a select few that wont get one shot in late game. I don't use the key btw. I don't find a great use for it when i have my operator for sticky situations
Going through the hole video you didn't address the Dragon Key. I totally understand you're point but when making changes like this you have tot take consideration on what is getting shadow nerfed
I think it is a bad idea to make suggestions to "balance" the game currently, more specifically bringing in suggestions to ruin the current flow of gameplay, especially from devs who let issues like this define the game (Like with the AoE "problem"). Killing energy-for-shield mods will just force shield generator weapons/abilities/frames or invulnerability/invisibility cheese. Removing/nerfing shield gating will take us back to (or heavily encourage) hallway camping. Damage reduction only matters if you actually take damage, if people even bother playing frames/modes where it ever matters to use DR. The game's pacing (other than low levels) will take a large hit. The real issue is that defensive gameplay in Warframe barely even exists or matters beyond making the damage an enemy deals less than or equal to 1. Your best defense (Better than shield gating) is annihilating or cutting off an enemy's offense. Desiring to nerf any form of defense at this point, is just flat out ignorant to what is actually wrong with the game (Besides Revenant). Shield gating is a lovely hot topic that people want to jump on, ignoring the many other things that hold it together or even what shield gating consists of for most frames, compared to slapping on mods/abilities to stand in front of damage. Where is parrying/blocking, crowd control techniques (beyond enemy can't attack), aggro drawing, the advantage of cover/high ground? Any meaningful defensive methods present in other games cannot even function in the design of Warframe. They even made units (Eximus) who flat out ignore methods of defending yourself in the game. Getting rid of or limiting a defensive method that allows people to not turtle throughout the game, especially one that at least requires you to use a proper build to make use of it, fixes nothing. Actually putting an upper limit on the amount of damage that can be dealt/taken is the proper first step to moving past bs shield/energy spam shenanigans. That is what actually should be talked about by most "knowledgeable" Warframe guys to move beyond the awful landfill that this game's balance is in. But it seems to be easier & more popular to flavor of the [Insert timeframe] any disliked gameplay, regardless of most people's knowledge about it....
@@VitchAndVorty yeah i know, I mean both inaros and nidus(even if he’s a literal god) could be affected in a really positve way. If DE decides to create more health/armor related warframe would be amazing. Because doing big numbers is fun, but having a warframe with complex ability all linked together is way more fun
I agree every frame should be able to solo late game content without shield gating. But they can't. So if you take away shield gating you instantly rip late-game viability from 80% of frames. A whole load of frames would either need a rework or the enemy scaling as a whole would need a total overhaul before you could even consider removing shield gating.
I did say that I thought that removing shield gating right now would be a disaster, but that moving toward a point where you could remove shield gating would be a massive improvement on the game.
Now i gotta ask, but was it not a big deal when they added shield gating after years of telling how it would be bad for the game and was it not only something like 4 years ago.
Shield Gating was patch Update 27.2 (2020-03-05). NOT 2017. I dunno where the fuck you got that from man. We have not had it for over 6 years. Notes from that patch - From the SHIELDS section on the Wiki: Shield Gating Friend and Foe Friend: First, let’s answer ‘What is Shield Gating?’ when it applies to you as a player. In this implementation, Shield Gating is the mechanic of preventing an instance of lethal (‘1-shot’) damage if you have Shields active. Simply put, the goal is to reduce the number of ‘1-shots’ you take when your shields are up, particularly for Shield-based frames. When any shields are active, an incoming hit that depletes your last bit of Shields will not continue into your Health pool, and also triggers a brief time where your Health is protected. Once that period is over you can take Health damage normally. Additionally, you will no longer take Slash Status Effect damage to your Health while Shields are up. Foe: Enemies - Corpus in particular - also have received a bit of a Shield Gating, but with skillful gameplay you can overcome this. Any Headshots or shots to Weakspots completely bypass Corpus enemy Shield Gating. In addition, 5% of the damage dealt when hitting the shield gate will target enemy Health - this allows you to take your Forma fueled weapons back to low level enemies and hit them hard instead of hitting the shield gate. The goal here is to make Shields a mechanic you want to play against with Mods (Auras, Elemental) or to bypass with skill (Headshots). Slash Status Effects will now deal damage over time to Shields, Toxin damage remains as-is (bypassing Shields to directly affect enemy Health). Damage from Warframe Abilities will ignore the enemy Shield Gate (i.e if an instance of Damage from an ability is greater than the Shield value, it will go into health as well).
I agree that SG is boring and bad, but 90% Dr is not nearly enough as is, I don't play some frames cause they don't have a specific Dr build in and you are saying reduce that to 40%, a big no no from me however I do believe that 3ach frame needs to have some tanking, most of the time with high shield frames I take pillage and adaptation along with its build in Dr like baruuk or stynax or hildy, ..... On the other hand, take xaku. How in the world do want to make him survivable if not with SG?
Buffing health and armor or DR that scales with enemy level would be interesting but I think it would make the game boring or rather unchallenging. Imagine if that is the case when armor/health/DR scaling is applied to every warframe, then every warframe can be a health tank. This is even without certain Warframe abilities. With Warframe abilities, imagine Citrine's DR + Wisp's health regen + Oberon's armor + a CC frame, this team is literally unkillable if health/armor scaling is adjusted to work in level cap. With a full blue archon shard (+ armor) this would be even ridiculous. You could either just stand afk and enemies would just tickle you.
I'm a returning player. Was so confused why my extra copies of Brief Respite and Augur mods are selling like hot cakes when these mods were barely looked at when they came out eons ago. I wouldn't say no to plats. Then I started to hear about shield gating which led me to this video. I agree that the core game philosophy needs to be reevaluated because if this trend continues there will be no reason to run support frames.
Shield gating never saved me. I know how it works in theory, but in practice it just never works because you need to have your entire shield destroyed in one hit for it to work, and if you go high level but not high high, then it won't really work reliably.
I am not sure I understand what you mean. You get a full shield gate if your shields have been fully recharged since breaking last time, irregardless of how long it takes for them to break this time.
Synergies/Teamwork: That's not really what Warframe is about in 2023. Most players builds these days are self-sufficient because most players play solo or PUG everything and thus cannot afford to rely on their team to complement their build. They don't need allies for energy, survivability, or damage support. That's just how things in this game are, and its been that way for years. Character design: There are other options than shield gating. Stealth, kill enemies first, movement, mitigation, etc. Maybe not EVERY frame...but most don't actually REQUIRE shield gating. Voruna is mentioned a LOT in this video. There is a build that uses your 4 to make your 2 become rapid 4 and takes advantage of the fact that abilities don't take you out of 1's stealth. Try it. Community: Shield gate, eclipse, and hunters munition? Meh. I have numerous builds that have none of those and do amazing. None of those 3 are even GOOD in every build.
I haven't watched the whole video yet, but my problem is that being tanky in warframe is really really different from other games. Rn, for mid-late game content at least, the definition of being tanky is simply being invincible (Shield gating or say, Revenant or even Zephyr) I don't think shield gating should be gutted, but rather would like a buff to all other means of survivability, so they are all somewhat equal in terms of viability. Armor should actually make a character tanky, shields should be something the player might want to focus on too and so on. Then they should add more means of getting said stats to a greater level, more interactivity. It's not easy to fix, but having a destination set helps.
I like the shield getting for two reasons. 1) huge amount of skill is required to abuse this game mechanics, and we al know it, majority of every game that exists doesn't want to sweat to stay alive. Between Rolling guard, operator with Magus Elevate for the heal, repositioning ect. The amount of detail make the shield gating mechanic not so easy to master. Is not just dodge to activate rolling guard, and that's it.. no. Every single damage taken matter, so you have to be extremely careful about using rolling guard. 2) a skillful player who knows what he doing with the shield getting is rewarded by Taking out one or two tankyness mod for more damage, range, Ect.. You might say, the shield getting ruins support heal, aggro tank frame little bit useless. But in reality they're always be as powerful as they are. Immortality by pressing one touch like Revenant, inaros, or having multiple damage reduction like Baruuk, making the frame litteraly unkillable and brain dead to use. But, not every frame in this game share those OP as heck of skill/passive to become tanky and last for 10h of Steelpath survival just because they cannot be killed at all (like Revenant (DE what are you waiting for nerfing this thing ?)).
or just make decaying dragon key to not be the max shield, so that it won't trigger 1.3 second full shield gate it would keep the mechanic but would make such build to be hard to make. also brief respite need to be nerf
I personally do not agree with the idea that there should be forced synergies between teams, which is something you try and push by removing shield gating. One of the things I enjoy about Warframe is just hoping on and playing, from a casual perspective, I dont want to spend the time to make a pre-made team between randoms to ensure that I have a synergized team, it can, sometimes, be too much of a hassle. SoloQ, in any game, is something I enjoy a lot. Forcing synergies would otherwise kill any form of SoloQ. There is, the huge elephant in the room as well, which is people who prefer to play by themselves entirely (no random teammates) would basically be shafted or heavily restricted in what they can do. And Im pretty sure most Solo players do not enjoy sitting in a single room with Khora just mashing their abilities every few seconds... because it's boring, in fact, more boring and inactive than anything you even listed. Another thing that this video completely brushes over is just the level of "invincibility" you talk about is something that can always, and will always, be achievable just in different ways. If someone wants to truly avoid dying, removing shield gating wont change how their achieve that, the only thing it does is inherently remove any form of variety which can exist. Again, all it does is reduce variety, it reduces what inactivity and fun can be had. I do think there could be a better approach to dealing with high level content, but with the way the game is, shield-gating is a necessary thing.
The reason why these videos won’t work is because if shield gating is removed then about 90% of Warframes will lose their value and be played a lot less
Just ignore it, it's just an opinion after all. besides, it's a PVE game, so do what makes the game fun for you. shield gate or not, there are builds that doesn't need it but It's quite limited. so pick your poison.
Enemies packing toxin damage are laughing their asses off at this video lol But in all seriousness, if you want solutions, here's a few: 1) Change Augur/Brief Respite to now instead reduces shield recharge delay, which incentivizes movement, which is the core of warframe, which is what makes the game fun. 2) Add health gating to diversify survivability styles. How it could work: split our health bar into two health bars, only the first health bar is health gated, and our damage reduction from armor directly defines how big the first health bar is. Example: a warframe with 300 health and 600 armor: 600 armor provides 66% damage reduction, so health from 300 to 100(aka 66%) would be gated, while health from 100 to 0 would not. Refreshing the health gate, a cooldown would probably be better than full restoration(just look at this video...). 3) Lv cap the enemies to 300, and have enemies have better AI as their lv climbs; x amount of enemies attempt to surround the player instead of running single-file, dodge if being in your crosshairs for x amount of time, x% increased movement speed, squads can initiate by x enemies throwing grenades simultaneously. You could increase/decrease the x by following margins in enemy lv like lv 50, 100, 200, then 300(or whatever numbers the community feedback demands). I personally would like all three, now that I took the time to write all this.
all unrealistic solutions. 1. "Change Augur/Brief Respite to now instead reduces shield recharge delay, which incentivizes movement" I hope you do realize that in order for shield gating to work, you still need to cast abilities/move around to avoid being hit, right? If you don't know, Shield gating is actually a very active playstyle specially if paired with Warframes that has no means of surviving at all. if you saw someone using this mechanic to a tank frame, then I wholeheartedly implore you to hate them. 2. "Add health gating to diversify survivability styles. How it could work: split our health bar into two health bars" dude.. c'mon now. you're literally just describing how shield gating works with a hint of passive Adaptation on the side. besides, you're restricting this mechanic to frames that has high to decent health/armor. how about frames like Banshee with an armor pool as durable as a sheet of paper? 3. You're basically asking DE to rework the game's AI which they've been unable to fix for years. we don't know if it's the engine's limitation or the code is too complex to be fixed but it's an unrealistic request for them to do. if they do actually managed to fix the AI then good one. I can't even about reducing level cap to 300. you're literally asking DE to remove the challenge in this game. so hell no.
truthfully speaking, removing shield gating is basically deleting the endgame player base, and removing them makes warframe empty, and warframe being empty with no players means warframe shutting down.............if you can carry banshee/ inaros to lvl 9999 disruption without dying 3 times i will support remove shield gating
So... Should we put all the survivability mods on a warframe and still died at level 200? The thing here is warframe damage scaling is fked up. So peeps look for a better survivability and found shieldgate maybe nerfing it is good but what will happen to build diversity? Maybe fix the health/armor/damage scaling first and then nerf shieldgate
Exactly, nerfing/removing it only restricts builds diversity. it also just shifts the meta and will only make some builds unnecessarily more difficult to pull off.
I have disagreed with many some things you have said in the past for instance I enjoyed the eximus rework(post magnetic Nerf) BUT I 100% agree with you here. I am sick of shield gating just being the golden solution to survivablity and a few mods out classing even warframe abilities all because the level cap mouth breathers have a microphone. I miss survivablity being something you had to think about and not just ability spam with a aura mod
And what makes modding for health+armor+DR any better? It's literally less brain input than shield gating and shield gating doesn't go with DE's philosophy of nerfing thing which are Does it ruin other players experience? No it does not, it's a solo survivability that doesn't negatively affects other players Does it enable you to be afk? Lol no Is it overused? No, based on what I've seen majority of WF players barely use the shield gating mechanic and I've been playing on public lobbies for a very long time and has seen barely of them using the shield gate mechanic, apart form mr L1 to L2. a lot of region peeps as well asking and linking if their build is good or not, guess what? Not a single of them linked a shield gating build L take
Yeah, especially with overguard, imagine banshee today without shield gating He also was focused on the "spam ability = immortal", I almost never do that in any of my builds, it's a playstyle blended with stuff like silence, rolling guard, or a heat/rad epitaph to sort of strategize around your shield gate depending on the setup
Someone else that thinks they know how warframe works and didn't play back when enemies vaporized you at level 300 no matter what kind of health build you had. I've heard you out and I still disagree. Good day sir, yes my view is based on being solo player, because Warframe is not built around team synergy but weapon and warframe synergy
Shield gating is fine. It just points out the imbalance in survivability mechanics within the game. You can use health tanking if you want, but it requires more mods to do so, and doesn't scale as high. Vazarin spam is also a thing. Besides shield gating is primarily used for higher level gameplay. Such as level cap runs. Base game shield gating isn't an overpowered mechanic at all. We should be talking about buffing health tanking, not removing shield gating...
I had a hard time understanding the whole logic behind this video you are mixing up so much stuff altogether. Warframe synergies can't play a factor here because most of the players play most of their time in random squads. The damage creep making the game too easy is a completely different subject and can be solved way easier by releasing enemies and game modes that don't focus on nuking the whole room. This is DE's current strategy by the way. What's left is you're saying that shield gating makes you too strong and at the same time you're critiquing Warframe for not having different survivability tools to deal with high level content. Your solution is in a first step to simply rebalance the whole game so that all frames can kind of survive with the hp and armor. And then nerfing the mods so far, that builds can't rely on it, because your first step would be too powerful in combination with shield gating. So you're basically suggesting to make warframes even more similar to each other which contradicts the whole idea of warframes having different survivability tools in the first place. Plus it switches from an active shield monitoring playstyle into more passive playstyle. While I understand your suggestions come from a place of good intention, I think you are missing the point here. Warframe is not meant to be difficult. Not even challenging by any means. And even if it was, it would still feel as dull because the enemies' AI is just bad. The real problem is that enemies are too similar and game modes become boring fast. And this you can fix by releasing enemies with a wider variety of mechanics and more interesting game modes. Again, this is what DE clearly realized after using the 'nerfing everything that is fun to s***' approach for years. It didn't make any difference. People just switched over to another game breaking meta. Because warframe is the game in which they want to feel ridiculously overpowered. Of course it will take time for the devs to release so many new game modes that it affects the perception of the game as a whole. A lot of time. In the meantime all we can do is to mix up our evenings with others games.
Letting people get to level cap was a mistake, like where do you go from there? Of course you should get oneshot at some point, that should be the whole point of having an incentive to get better loot till you can go higher without getting oneshot. If there's no actual difference between level 5000, level 10000 and level 100000000 what's even the point? Now we get restricted loadouts and all the bs because of it, because that's their only way to even add any difficulty to anything anymore.
The game needs an entire rework. All the set mods are super weak except 1 of their parts. If anything, the full set bonus of every set in the game needs a massive buff. You don't need brief respite or augur mods to shield gate, it's just passive for shields. For example on my mag I just press 3 and I get more shields. You could if you wanted to use a bunch of mods that do shield regeneration%. Dying is not the main concern in WF. It can happen but it probably won't. Your complaint only exists because players now have enough energy to spam abilities. Q) Why not just ask for a nerf to "primed flow" or "archon flow"? A) Because being in stealth is nearly the same as being invincible. A) Valkire's 4, Harrow's 4, Hydriod's 3, Nyx's 4, Rhino's 2?, Revenant's 2, Volt's shielded direction give you invincibility in exchange for energy. A) Rolling guard gives you invincibility when you dodge/roll same with Limbo A) Using operator or necromec is basically the same as invincibility. A) Anyone who thinks this game is too easy should just solo farm Grendel parts all day every day. I have this on a few of my frames, including my ranged voruna. Subsumed Ivara's stealth arrow + use the augment. Now I'm invisible forever and generate energy globes and Immune to all statuses so I can't even die to toxic clouds or stray aoe procs of fire or slash. Everyone on my team can just walk into it and get the same immunity. If I want to move around with it, I just shoot the stealth arrow on my pet. If I want to group enemies I just hold it down for sound arrow and lure the entire map to 1 corner. Every time I would have died in WF I go into my operator and kill a few things and then I'm alive again. You can't even fall off the map to your death in this game. The main reason people lose in this game is they encounter 1 of the many, MANY, bugs/glitches.
you can complain all you want. devs said they're fine with shield gating because it incentivizes more active play. It's not changing and it's not going anywhere.
DE as usual uses a band-aid rather than fixing the game, and trust me if DE tries to fix this they will add more band-aid on it. Also, nobody should put the words Warframe and balance in the same sentence.
I hate Shield-Gating too, if I am to play on SP the only thing I would do is Farming in Survival with my Ore Gaze Nekros, if not I either pick my immortal Mesa, Nezha or Rev, or just keep distance and kill fast looooool.
I'll concede that SG could use some adjustments but I'm not convinced by your argument. I think SG is one of the best things they've added to the game, different strokes and all that. SG gang 4 lyfe yo
Probably not obvious to people who dont watch a ton of stuff like me, but the only video anyone needs to watch is the Brozime DE pablo interview. The problem always was he likes to balance by trial and error and then make changes when somehow they decide they need to make some standards. I.E. the Orphix ally heal changes and sentient buff, the armor strip and the ammo rework. I don't think theres a realistic chance to change this until there are some people with standards joining the devs,and make some changes before things become a problem. That is what I am trying to do with the tennovation Initiative, I will start with a Few video presentations and community contest. My only problems ever were organizing my time and growing up in poverty.
@@semtexagon tennovation Initiative will be a discord where tenno and DE can work together and discuss the important things that should be changed(why how when and who). And eventually we can figure out how to lift together and potentially work as interns or contractors. Its something I planned for Months but now Im close to launching it, IE plans are done Just gotta make it. Also the video on how gun skins work gotta get finished first.
@@Hughjundys yeah I have many practical solutions how to make the core of the game more easier to use and understand just need to process them into a presentable form. I think that is one of the areas the current devs even tho they are trying they just dont have the explanation talent/ dedication to do any better than nightwave and several quest intros.
I fully disagree. Shield gating is not free invulnerability as you saod it was. It is a complocated emchanic that deepens solo play while diversifying warframes. Before shiekd gating only 4 warframes really were meta and build diversity was 0. Shield gating is: Resource based - energy, targets for abilities or having an ability that can restore full shield amount. Shield gating adds difficulty - before either you tanked, or didn't, and tanking was an almost passive process, shield gating is an active playstyle that requires skill and timing. Shiled gating has a weakness: Many things actually coubter shield gating unlike hp tanking - toxin and gas using enemies, some eximuses, nullifiers, magnetic procs. Those things are a minor annoyance for inaros but a death sentence to a mag. Synergy: Synergies now no longer need to strive for survival, as supporting in warframe ia mpre unique instea dof just sustaining resources. Now enemy CC, enemy defense strip, priming, ally buffing, I frames and energy sustain are meta support playstyle. Synergy comps still thrive. Radial disarm, speedva and khora nekros farms are one example Character design: No characters have a choice in theit tanking form - Shield gating, as someone who uses it and defends it, its an active playstyle, and some people dont want to keep the mental load of keeping the active survival while conventional hp tanking is viable Shield gating is an option and a way for squishy caster frames to not be bad corner huggers.
So, i have a question about the golden 90% DR and why you make it seem like no one can get it. Health Conversion + Guardian is 88% DR and u only need another 450 armor to reach 90%. So why is Guardian + Health Conversion + adaptation + voruna or Citrine subsume not a viable way to hit 90%? That is 2 mods(health convert and adapt) 1 arcane(guardian) 1 arcane/mod(blessing or vitality) and a subsume. Still 5 requirements, it brings it more inline with shield gating's 3-4 slot requirements
"But muh level cap! But muh pro end game solo 4d chess 8b nuke XD triple strata!" Hang all level capers and "pro yootoobers" on orokin lamp posts. If you want your level cap endurance run - you'll do it without shieldgate in a squad, relying on synergy and teamwork and not on broken shit strats. Or challenge yourself - challenge for something beyond spamming brief respite on your road to one shot magus lockdowned unmoving and unresponsive target. A long time ago, before shieldgate, before operators, T4 tower required a team to do high level long endurance runs. But you could challenge yourself and do it solo. And it was a challenge both in your damage output and your survivability. It was a challenge, it was rewarding and it meant something. Now game is weightless, homogenized and meaningless. Every build is same, every set is same (few exeption here and there). Everything is either god-like broken or unviable past certain point. Big numbers go bigger, everything dies and everybody happy and enjoying "power fantasy". But it's shit fantasy with empty feeling of playing Simaris' Simulacrum. Bad rewards, bad balance - that's DE fault. But optimizing fun out of game - that's on community. So, yeah, I agree - Reject shielgate, Return to monke. Oh, and change weapons from hit-scans to projectile based while we at it.
I agree with this if only the enemies do not have the ability to one shot your warframe
Enemies have insane amounts of damage, health, armor and shields. Not to mention they also get health gating and CC protection. Aim bot and one-shot ruins this game completely. Survivability is non-existent and some frames can't solo the content. Not to mention that active s don't even work like dodging and bullet jumping, etc.
^^^^^
Then that would be health gating which is what we used to have to do before Shield gating all in all the argument to remove Shield getting is fucking stupid it's the equivalent of asking DE to remove armour stripping because the steel path is too easy
@@user-ov8cu5ff2y well said
That is sort of the videos entire point, i think. The reason enemies DO one shot your warframe is because DE designed the steel path enemies knowing shield gating exists. If shield gating didn't exist, DE would have never designed the enemies to one shot your warframe in the first place.
Shield Gating is the SOURCE of DE being lazy about scaling their game properly.
I veiw this as more of an issue of warframe armor scaling in addition to the enemy damage as you described. The fact is that even dedicated bruiser frames can't scale DR past level 200-300 maybe 600 with a source of status clear anymore. Having to boost to 2500-3000 armor for it to matter late is honestly a little silly (oberon, the only frame that gives out armor, needs 4 armor shards + gaurdian + umbral set at 300%str to acheive this and he is only really allowed to give the team 50% armor DR). imo the denominator gap for warframes should be changed from 300 to 150 and even this would only put valkyr prime at 90% armor dr from a full umbral set. Please make armor a useful stat.
Thank you.
Lots of frames can scale past level 200 and 300 with proper builds. Nekros, Nezha, Nidus, Gauss, Baruuk, and Rhino can all scale super far. Nezha's and Rhino's tank abilities both scale with enemy damage by funneling it into the halo/iron skin. Nidus can stack multiple layers of DR to have only a tiny fraction of damage hit him and still can cheat death indefinitely so long as you have stacks. Nekros can easily get over a million EHP through his layers of damage reduction. Gauss gets full immunity to all physical damage types and a couple extras with his kinetic plating. Baruuk can reach the some of the highest damage reduction in the game. Revenant is a bit of an outlier since he just says no to any amount of damage. You honestly won't be forced into any content that's above level 300 as the highest node is conjunction survival at lvl 200. Even then, several of the frames I've mentioned can reach level cap through various means. We have the tools necessary to push things as far as they can go, but that's honestly not necessary for general content.
It is. But the reason DE did not scale armor and enemy damage properly is because shield gating existed. Instead of removing shield gating and properly scaling armor/enemies, they just made enemies one-shot you instead because that is the only way to create the facade of challenge in a game where shield gating exists. If shield gating was never in the game, the endgame enemies would have never been designed to one-shot you in the first place. Shield Gating is the entire reason the scaling of the game has been ignored. (Why bother scaling the game properly if all the players are bypassing the scaling anyways, is the logic.)
why would you want to go beyond lv600 is the real question, absolutely useless
To be completely honest, I think Shield Gating only highlights just how bad all the other defensive options are. (Barring Mesmer Skin, Iron Skin, Invisibility, Resonator).
Health, Armor, Damage Reduction. All of them become completely useless after a certain level threshold in Steel Path. Not even an Inaros equipped with Adaptation and every Health and Armor mod/arcane in the game can avoid being instantly evaporated by a level 1000 enemy. This is why Shield Gating is absolutely necessary for endurance runners. Because cheesing those invincibility frames is the only way you're going to last multiple hours in an endless survival without having to resort to using only a small handful of Warframes that are literally unkillable.
At least give Shield Gating some credit because it makes almost every frame viable. Nerfing it will only hurt the game in the long run.
I don't want to settle for shield gating. Give banshee some actual attention.
Well said...and the key point for me is limited frames.thats a bad way to design a mode. I don't care I how good you is...I barely if hardly ever see people using all frames in steel path...I like variety
@@semtexagon That's pretty ironic, considering shield gating is the only thing that is currently saving her from being dumped in trash tier. Alongside every other frame that aren't named Revenant, Rhino, Wukong and the invis frames.
They're not going to remove the augur set from the game, they'll probably only lower the values like they did with corrosive projection a couple years ago, that's the most likely thing they'll actually do.
Removing survivability from warframes is a bad idea all around, requiring a teammate to keep you alive when you can't guarantee you'll have someone to play with to begin with never works out
If people want to play alone then let them, forcing people to work together is why railjack was so hated at launch (along with the bugs)
They don't need to remove it, it's fine keeping shield gate in, to stop bs one shots. BUT u shouldn't be able to proc it non stop to live forever. Pretty sure the decaying dragon key is also not supposed to help either, that's clearly something devs missed out and didn't intend for it to be used that way, maybe make it so it only works on missions that can spawn orokin vaults.
Shield gating should still stay in game, but put a cooldown on it, just like rolling guard. That's a mod that most people agree is very good, but it's not broken, just very good.
@Dym The devs know about shield gating with dragon keys and don't mind. There's already so many ways to be immortal and shield gating is one of the more active and risky ways to do that. No need to nerf it when revenant exists, invis is a thing, and you have so many methods of stacking damage reduction.
@@Cantaloupe_Connoiseur Just because they know about it, doesn't mean it was what they intended when they added it. Shield gating has people who like it and people who don't so devs chose not to get rid of it. Doesn't mean their opinion will never change or they think shield gating is fine as it is and never plan to change it.
My problem with shield gating is not that it make you immortal, i think it's fine to give you a second chance if you mess up dodging some attack or etc. The issue i have is, you don't even need to dodge with shield gate, you are just permanently immortal, which is stupid in my opinion in a game that's suposed to be about ninja based combat.
Shield gating should stay, just have a cooldown so you can't facetank everything but still have to avoid attacks or use other defensive skills to help.
@@123dmytro123 We are WAY past ninja combat man. Also tons of warframes can just sit there and face tank without shield gating so I'm not sure why 1 is an issue but the other isn't when shield gating is arguably much more risk and active than say Mesmer skin,iron skin, warding halo, kinetic plating, parasitic link, defy/wuclone, turbulence, eclipse, absorb with augment, shatter shield, preserving shell, shield of shadows nekros, high dr baruuk and the list can go on. We are WAY stronger than our enemies and aren't really in much danger in any content except level cap. Even then I'd say a good chunk of the cast can handle it pretty well. Shield gating might be popular but it's not the end all to be all or even the most OP survival mechanic in the game.
@@Cantaloupe_Connoiseur That's your opinion that we are past that, DE still say they want active gameplay every devstream and movement should be rewarded. At the end of the day, people use what's meta/best currently and shield gating is by far the most popular way to do anything past steel path level, so most people clearly agree it's the best/easiest to do if you want to play anything high level in general, maybe some specific frames have better options, but shield gating is most used for a reason.
I think something this video ignores is the core issues with Warframe itself, namely that missions usually either put us on a hard timer, enemies do absurd damage, or if the mission doesn't force you to kill things fast, the main objectives of the mission have enemies that bypass any sort of defensive play. This is probably the main reason Disruption and Cascade are so loved: you aren't on a super hard time limit to kill things, allowing you to pace your gameplay, and the main objectives of the game modes don't ignore everything that isn't raw damage.
To put it another way, you mention Xaku as one of the frames that were made with the expectations of shield gating, but Xaku absolutely has the tools to never need to shield gate. They have their innate 75% dodge chance, the ability to basically map-wide mind control enemies since most Xakus will of course be running close to max range, and a third hard CC line attack on top of all that. Theoretically, Xaku shouldn't even be shot at in the first place, and if they are it's unlikely the shot will hit them, and if it does, THEN you have your one-time get-out-of-jail shield gate.
So with all this protection, why do Xakus run shield gating to the point that you believe they were designed with shield gating in mind? Probably because Xaku using their defensive abilities either actively harms the objective, or the enemies that need to not target Xaku the most are the ones immune to being stopped. Guns don't auto-target brainwashed enemies, enemies will scatter all over the place chasing things down, brainwashed enemies aren't particularly good at killing their allies even inside a Gaze area, overguarded units ignore being brainwashed entirely and will just hard focus you, etc etc. Those aren't issues alone, the core issue is this means Xaku cannot keep up with the objective times without ignoring half of their kit and instead just using armor strips and shield gating. Xaku does extremely well for Disruption or Cascade, places where their strong CC is actually rewarded and you only need to burst down one hard CC immune enemy, which Xaku is actually really good at, meaning it's pretty feasible to go to level cap in those missions without shield gating if you wanted to. But Xaku in just a normal 20 minute survival to hit rotation C without shield gating, actually keeping up life support on their own? Sure it's doable but it requires an immense amount of active play and the payoff isn't that impressive. Xaku is no Saryn or Gyre or Ember or Nidus when it comes to deleting rooms. Does all this mean Xaku is bad for wanting to shield gate so they can actually seek out crowds that aren't scattered all over the place and can actually let their guns clean up enemies? I don't think anyone who has played Xaku could say that they're bad, so I don't think the core problem here is the shield gating aspect.
This is just one example but the main argument is one that extends to a wider spectrum. You say it yourself in the issues with enemy damage. It's a core issue with the game that prevents middle-of-the-road frames from joining the ranks of tanking steel path enemies, within reason of course. Saryn is a good example: her relatively strong defensive stat spread and access to an instant status cleanse that also gives her a strong regen with an augment, on top of being extremely good at damaging the map, means you should really be able to slap Adaptation on her and reasonably tank with the big boys, and yet she's the poster child of shield gating because Molt almost feels like it was custom-designed to synergize with it and she isn't anywhere near realistically tanky enough for most modern content. Yes, I'm aware all frames can reasonably tank up to steel path level 250ish, Banshee included, but that's being hyperbolic and ignoring the build and time sacrifices you have to deal with when doing that. Saryn SHOULD be a frame that can walk into a new room and not get instantly downed before she can get things going, and yet she's commonly played with a shield gating setup instead. That issue is on Warframe's end, not shield gating's.
Then turn everyone into Inaros if thats your thing and have fun with the game that way.
On a more serious note I look at shield gating as a difficulty slider. You have a more active defense so then you are able to build for offensive stats and if played properly you can go against higher level enemies. Even as you've showcased vast majority of the playerbase doesn't even go that high so building for bulk (HP, armor and DR) is enough while weapons can still work at their full potential or close to it (lack of Ability strength is an issue with buffing abilities and so on).
However nerfing everything isn't the right choice without alternative options (which again isn't even needed for over 90% of the population anyway as said above) otherwise we are back to the same old invis or Volt shield cheese which is even worse than the current state.
Thank you for explaining this succinctly. Said it better than I could
thats because 90% of warframe players arent brainrot maybe, going above lv600 is the most useless thing to do in this game lol carpal tunnel syndrome simulator
@@ioritenshi In most cases sure. The game is designed in a way that most content has a self repeating reward pool every 4 rotations. But ...
In niche cases there is a benefit to go for longer. Fissure bonuses give more loot, including steel essence. In Cascade more thrax spawn so you can get more arcanes. Arbitrations remain in C rotations for more endo. Disruption is great for target farming specific tier of relics.
If it's pointless to you that's okay. For some it matters tho.
Shield Gating is a bandaid that fixes a problem that would have been harder to fix otherwise. Most enemies at high enough levels will one shot you, no matter what. There's no one shot protection in this game outside of shield gate.
It is, in my opinion, unhealthy as outlined in the video. However, it solves a problem that is just as bad to have. Getting one shot with no protection against it invalidates a lot of frames. Shield Gating saved frames like Banshee from getting evaporated. If you don't address the problem Shield Gating tries to, and oversuccessfully, solves then it's not a good idea to remove it just yet.
Your suggestions to fix Shield Gate do not address this core issue: The reason we clamored for shield gate in the first place. They only nerf Shield Gating, without considering the problem it addresses. A much better suggestion is a rework of the one shot protection approach, and allow for build variety. I have my own suggestion, stolen from a game that does shield vs armor mechanics better. Warning, textwall below:
Completely Rework Shield Regeneration:
Shields Now Regen Constantly, only stopping when shields deplete. The Shield Regen is only halted when the shields break. The Shield Regen per second scales with *Maximum* Shields.
Whenever shields take damage, a time starts for full replenishing of all shields. This is a rework of Recharge Delay. Instead of Recharge Delay, it is Shield Recharge Cooldown (not to be confused with Natural Regen). Instead of 2 seconds of not taking damage to start regenerating slowly, it's 6-7 seconds to set your shields to max if you are below it. Natural Shield Regen is also turned off until you proc shield recharge when shields break. Including Arcane Aegis, which now is a massive boost to natural regen.
Importantly, taking damage doesn't make you start over, but takes away bit of the time you've waited so far. Waited 6 out of 7 seconds but took damage? You gotta wait 4 *more* seconds now. Get hit again immediately? Back to waiting 7 seconds.
Full Shield Gate only Restores when Shield Recharge procs. This means Arcane Aegis and Augur/Respite does not replenish your Shield Gate faster. Instead, mods like Fast Deflection replenish it faster, and there's no way to actually speed up this process through gameplay. **Just don't get hit.** Should you somehow get all your shields back externally before the shield recharge? Sure give it the 0.3 seconds gate, the one that would normally keep you immortal under Aegis' regen.
Lastly, Cap Damage instances on shield, scaling with higher shield values. The bigger your shields, the more hits it takes to deplete them, but this damage cap on damage instances notably will never be smaller than the shield regen, allowing for death by a thousand cuts even for massive shields. It also doesn't count as a shield gate, it just means you evaporate under heavy fire but can take a bombard rocket as long as your shields are up.
This is all stolen from a game that does Shields vs Armor better, and allows for Big Shields vs Small Shield gameplay. Tried and Tested to actually work.
Another consequence is Rolling Guard Augur/Respite is still a build, it just works as a way to find cover to wait out your natural Shield Cooldown Delay, giving you that extra cushion against getting one shot after your shields break. It will work regardless of shield values, but is now not overbearing. So people won't have to reforma, just change the way they play slightly.
Fast Deflection is now going to be alternative option to using rolling guard that benefits both low and high shields, but for different reasons. Redirection increases how beefy your shields are, while Fast Deflection can make your beefy shields come back faster after a rework to Shield Recharge mod values.
Im kinda confused on the regen part, if you got an extra 3-4 seconds added to your recharge timer wouldn’t shields pretty finicky and useless after the first break? Maybe it works in the game you are talking about but in wf you have tons of enemies, aoe, cc, and tight corridors, there should be some mechanic to start regen or top you up, (also, what is the game you are talking about?)
@@JonathanJ159 It's Nova Drift. In that game damage to the shields doesn't completely restart the timer from zero. Instead a percent of the timer waited so far is chipped by the damage, which can be reduced with modding. It's also a horde shooter. It works there, just a top down shmup, and it's pretty difficult to never ever take damage, just like warframe. However, once you wait a few seconds, there's definitely ways to avoid damage with invuln or similar effects, like Melee Parry or Rolling Guard or Protective Dash. Maybe even buff Parkour to do more.
Shields on their own shouldn't be the only way to survive anyway, but part of a larger system, so even when your shields fully deplete, health and armor should also do something, which they currently don't. The video got that right, and I believe we do need to buff health and armor and differentiate it from shields so that shields aren't just blue weak armored health.
Shield builds work and have build diversity in Nova Drift, for example. Because Shields and Armor have distinct roles. Shields protect from burst damage (explosions, heavy hits), no matter how you mod for them, and armor+health is good at preventing rapid accumulation of small instances of damage or 'shredding' (beams, rapid guns, pellets). Damage reduction keeps both roles of the health types in Nova Drift functioning better, though it also helps that enemy damage doesn't scale much, but rather their speed and aggression and numbers.
The constant regen only turns off either when shields break or with certain mods. And the second you take damage, Shield Cooldown to recharge all shields starts ticking away immediately. Whether your shields are depleted or not. There's big shields with resillient cooldowns and big natural regen, and small shields with shorter cooldown and powerful shield gate mechanics. You can go either or and have a decent shield focused build. There's more of course. Was just using it as an example as one shot protection, and how there's multiple ways to do it and have a modding system that keeps the spirit of it for different 'health bar types'.
I do not think that the problem is with Shield Gating itself but rather how the endgame is now centered around fighting enemies that can one shot you regardless of damage reduction so anything that gives invulnerability became dominant. Its more of the meta being focused on one method while others become less prevalent. In such a case, instead of a shield gating nerf, buffs to other forms of protection should be a better step to add more ways for players to survive. Standard tanking with health and armor along with also making high shield capacity more viable can do more better than taking away one option for high level survivability while leaving little. Also, it wouldn't hurt if we got non-ultra high level endgame activities like raids with a fixed level where the damage is enough to be challenging but not that great that armor is not viable. The lack of proper endgame is what pushed veterans to establish ultra high level steel path and level cap runs as the de-facto endgame, which is why stuff like Shield Gating and Blind Rage low efficiency+Arcane Energize builds are so common.
Plus I strongly disagree about how you are overly focusing on team play. Not everybody can afford playing in groups with well optimized setups due to factors like preferring to play solo or bad internet connection. And shield gating gave me a way to play a number of frames in higher level content instead of relying on a select few. You can't deny the fact that Augur mods bring an engaging playstyle where you are encouraged to use abilities more due to survivability being tied to it than just run and gun with Inaros. It also opened up space on my warframe's mod slots as I no longer need to put on steel fiber and vitality on every single Warframe. The build diversity shield gating allows is one of the biggest benefits aside from the active playstyle it encourages.
I mean, a simple solution which would make the most sense to me, since warframe's health pools are fixed numbers, is to have the damage of enemies not increase linearly but having it reached its max. potential way earlier... it should still be very high and require you to use proper builds, evasive manouvers, buffs and debuffs, but be possible to handle without the requirement of invulnerability!
You don't get any extras, so why does the damage even scale up untill level cap?
You could make the argument that it's nice to have it as feature for challenge runs, but these challenge runs are only possible with one certain build, so it's not a necessarily a challenge, since everyone could do it with the right prerequisites for their equipment and not really require actual skill.
Exactly. Most games work as how you just described or close to that. The base health pools are extremely low and shields are very weak. Plus healing is not a thing in Warframe, besides health globes. DE seems to hate healing for some reason. Also, most games have health regen in some form besides healing, like life on hit or life on kill or life steal.
I actually really like this idea. Only making the enemies tougher physically would still keep the need for removing armor and or shields but having them reach a damage cap at like 120 or 100 or something like that would allow adaptation to be enough in a ton of scenarios.
@@futavadumnezo Health gating requires healing, Nidus is a great example for that.
Make damage scaling to a certain point, not bad. then let's add the option that mobs can still one shot you, only if it's a headshot.
The investment needed as well as having to sacrifice flexibility nearly balances shield gating in my opinion. You're painting it as "Invincibility" but you need multiple things to be able to use it:
-Low shield pool
-Low enough efficiency to effectively se the mod, because if you don't restore the shield pool you only get 300ms of shield gate.
-Enough energy upkeep to frequently cast abilities and a large enough energy pool to draw from
-A brain good enough to pay attention to your shields running out within 1.3 seconds
-Rolling guard is usually combined with shield gating to ensure you don't die to toxin or other procs
Shield gating is also completely unnecessary under level 150 on the steel path because you can just face tank with certain frames. Having more usable frames instead of just pure tanks makes the game better. I'm open to discussion tho.
no one replied lol. i dead just sold my energize and my shield gating becomes damn near useless without proteas helminth and equilibrium to keep me from wasting all my energy on a single cast just to get one shot striped of all my shields right after and have to cast immediately again, remember i NEED energy to use dispensary and you already know my efficiency is complete garbage. this is me without rolling guard equipped lmao, dont forget the mods i need to use my frames abilities and the slots i have to sacrifice to stay alive. this mf literally just wants the game to be played how HE wants it played. this WF shii get serious no cap. dumbest video i have ever seen, he needs to delete this video.
I agree, the destruction of a nearly guaranteed way to use certain frames in high level content drops the pool of available Viable frames IMMENSELY. Some of my favorite frames, are ones that break if stared at for to long (RIP NOVA, Banshee.) And I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t collect these shiny toys with a 3 day timer to just have them. I’d like to use them as well.
@@jay2wavy215 You are missing the point of the video. If shield gating never existed, the endgame enemies wouldn't have been designed to one-shot you in the first place. Meaning that your Nova/Banshee would have been able to play endgame without shield gating because the game would have been scaled properly. The entire REASON your Banshee/Nova suffers endgame is because DE designed endgame AROUND shield gating. If it didn't exist, they would have properly scaled survivability instead of forcing you to abuse one playstyle.
@@jay2wavy215 I've got a tanky as hell nova, no shield gating needed.
@@GrrumpyPants seeing as how nova “Is a frame who breaks physically and emotionally when you look at her.” I have to assume 1 of 5 things.
1. Quite a bit has been sacrificed to ensure her survivability.
2. You are utilizing her abilities to augment your survival odds(cudos she’s a massively slept on frame.)
3. Gloom.
4. Your play style is restrictive and or tailor made for your play style.
I can’t be sure obviously but you sir accomplished something I could not and I’d live any feedback you may have for her.
Shield gating is a huge problem, but it's a symptom of a bigger problem and some bad design decisions regarding defense.
1. Enemies simply do too much damage at 100+. At these levels, you NEED something that will reduce damage by at least 90% or the game is literally unplayable. Glass cannons cannot exist in WF, because a single Steel Path grineer unit can hitscan delete your entire health pool before you can do anything. In what other game would it be ok for single trash mobs to have enough DPS to kill you in less than one second? I can't think of one that has trash mobs that powerful, unless you can reliably dodge all attacks from trash mobs. It's impossible to make anything but full tank builds when the damage is this high. If shield gating didn't exist, Gara, Nezha, Nova, Rhino, Revenant, Inaros, Mesa, and Health Conversion frames would be the only usable frames at high level content.
2. The game doesn't include ANY viable options other than shield gating. The helminth system basically has no defensive abilities. There is Null-star but it requires *300% ability duration* to get to 90% and starts dropping off as the orbs target enemies to do 1 damage. It also cannot be recast leaving you with no useful defense a long time or use another Mod slot for the augment (after building 300% duration btw). Defy exists I guess; which only offers 750 armor. Parasitic armor only works with a few frames. Adaptation and rolling guard aren't real solutions either. Adaptation doesn't have procs per damage type so it's inconsistent and is best stacked with other types of DR. Rolling guard is basically arson/toxin eximus insurance, because you won't be surviving long with that. Arcanes do not fair much better. There are 4 defensive arcanes worth talking about. Arcane barrier, which is more shield gating, Arcane Guardian which provides 900 armor (Still not enough but better than defy and can be double stacked), Tanker can't be used in most missions, and arcane double back which requires you to constantly bullet jump, double jump, and roll every 3 seconds.
Now we can see why shield gating is the default option for every single build in existence. For all intents and purposes, the only real option for frames that don't have 90%DR and can't use Health Conversion is to shield gate, or use Double Arcane Guardian. Nullstar requires too much investment, Defy sucks, Parasitic Armor is only good on like 3 frames, Double back requires constant parkour, Tanker can't be used in missions you'd want it for, Adaptation isn't enough on it's own, and Rolling guard leaves too much of a hole in your defense. Or you can shield gate using 2 mod slots on your secondary (of which the mods are good), use the aura mod slot which is basically free and you're good for literally any level of content, whereas DR starts to fall off when levels get to 500+ anyway.
Enemies can have their damage nerfed to allow squishier frames breathing room at least at Steel Path level enemies, and/or they can give alternatives as good as health conversion. The Helminth defy nerf is unecessary. Arcane guardian should be 1500 armor so that you only need to use 1 slot. Nullstar should be recastable, and each cast adds orbs to the existing amount so that you don't have to build 300% duration just to get a shitty version of what defensive frames have. Double back needs it's duration doubled at least from 4 to 8 seconds. Adaptation should give procs for each damage type instead of just the dominant type, but be nerfed to 70% to compensate so that you still need to stack it with other defense. Rollling Guard should add 600 armor during the cooldown. Not enough on it's own but again can be stacked with other defensive options. Also, the helminth system could definitely add some defensive abilities into the mix. Put shatter shield in, but remove bullet reflection and cap it at 70%. Swap in snow globe or splinter storm. If revenant can give the entire team invincibility, being able to helminth some DR is more than fair.
And all of this is an even bigger symptom of the real problem, DE's laziness.
On point
@@encouraginglyauthentic43Fr fr
I think the real issue is just that dragon key _(atleast for gating being too godly)_ . cause it completely makes the required amount of energy you need to pump through respite and augur mods absurdly cheap.
shield gating as a "no one shots if you have shields" mechanic is fine. it's the rapid abuse-ability that makes it "toxic". "bad" is the wrong kind of descriptive word I think... and also the absurd enemy damage stonks vs health should likely get looked at too.
what should/could happen on that front is that armor damage reduction should mean that each hit cannot deal more than that percentage of max health damage to you and offers a brief moment of damage taking stop _(0.1-0.2 secs or so. not much, just so it takes into consideration a whole bunch of hits at once happening)_ . then you could survive a few hits through armor regardless of enemy damage output if you had enough regeneration or other forms of healing, combined with shield gating as it is now minus the key.
But shield gating also needs like a brief delay before it comes active again after it's been used (atleast a similar 1.5 seconds of being full with a blue screen tint effect to show shields have hardened and come back), rather than just having the condition being full shields atleast for a nano-second to be it. So you need to take a moment of cover, or shut the enemies down and touch yourself up or need to have a shield restorative ability etc to be able to keep surviving.
I'd probably say, cause the shield key is meant to be negative, the shield key should reduce the time that you can shield gate for at maximum at any given time by 75% also. so the 1.3 second becomes only like 0.3 or so normally if the key is in so it remains a technical negative, as a "challenge" item equip as it's meant to have been for the vault opening etc.
other protective measures could be the dodge and parkour movement damage reductions and accuracy reductions getting a touch up so you can somewhat effectively dodge, or "graze" damage away by being tricky and on the move when in the open. Like if taking damage while rolling the damage tick gate is extended until the roll ends so you can't take anymore damage mid roll if you need to yeet yourself through a death cloud or a swarm of enemies, or bullet jumping effectively deflecting small arms fire from weaker foes. big arms fire like beams and rockets would still hit. but cheesy hitscan grineer and projectiles from corpus would be avoided. so on and so forth.
My major issue with shield gating is that on many frames it completely invalidates their own intended survival or dmg reduction abilities. Why invest mods and formas into armor and dmg reduction abilities when I can just shield gate? Granted the latest frame works beyond lvl 100 with its dmg reduction and other frames like Nidus have no shields but in return are probably among my favorite frames to play because of their unique gameplay. Sure, making every frame like Nidus is a bit of a stretch but at least offer different viable end game approaches to your frames survival for higher lvl, be it shields, amor and health or the warframes unique abillities.
So you want everyone become Inaros because you don't like other people use shield gating as a source of surviving. Just a few problems with that logic. Shield gating is not something that everyone can just abuse, because you need to understand how to play your build properly in order to use the shield gating in the middle of your killing process, is not just spam buttons and hope things to die while being invencible, if you can't regen your shield to max in one cast you will probably die when your shield breaks again, if you don't know which ability can recover your shield to full, you will probably die too, if you didn't pay attention to your shield breaking you will probably die, if you just for a fraction of a second step on a toxin cloud, you're dead, if you didn't pay attention at your energy going low, you're probably dead. What you and this guy are asking for is to everyone become a brain dead health tank that only need to stay there and exist to tank, that involves 0 focus, 0 skills, and 0 effort, it's the most lazy and boring way to survive, and still, if you're not playing on long endurance runs you can still survive without a problem with a health tank build, damn my Inaros can survive for more than 1 hour in Circulus SP without even being close to die, but you know what? IS BORING AS HELL. My Nidus can do the same, still broing as hell, Wisp? no problem i just stay on my plants and that's it, Atlas? just spam 1, Revenant, just press 2, Rhino, just press 2, Hildryn, press 2, Ivara, press 3 put a dashwire and stay there to the end. Sure, you're not killing that much as an Equinox or a Saryn or a Gyre on SP, but they need to do a lot more than press 1 ability or just exist (Inaros) to survive to the same things. My major issue with people crying about shield gating is the fact that you prefer a more lazy and braindead way to survive, while you don't even go on long endurance runs where shield gating builds are suppose to go.
@@CrisHermetica Didn't say that nor did I mention Inaros and what your saying I want is based on presumptions you dump on me. I'd rather they make mechanics around health and/or armor that makes them enjoyable and valuable to build towards with their own synergies. They reworked how shields worked and I would like for the devs to take a look at health and armor as well. Simple as that.
@@MrCemicalX And why should they do that? armor and health doesn't scale, but is more than enough combined with adaptation to base SP, it's around 300 to 400 lvl that it stop working so well, and around 1 hour of survival on Circulus SP is not enough to reach that lvl. Most people don't stay more than 30 min on survival, 1 hour is even less people, and enough time to reach those lvls is less than 10% of the player base. Why DE should make something with health and armor scaling when there is not enough people that reach a lvl of enemies enough to actually kill them with just health tanking? Not to mention that like i said armor and health scaling shouldn't be touched because if they actually buff that, it would be broken. Warframe players always want a more optimal or easiest way to play, give them something that give them enough survival power with health and armor that don't involve them to pay attention to details or play around a 1.3 sec of invulnerability and that will be the only thing they will do. And if you want them to nerf enemies scaling, then they need to nerf everything involving health, armor, dr, damage redirection, and invulnerability to the ground, and even then, players will find a way to survive with an easier strat. That's it, nerfing/removing shield gating will only bring builds like combo count melee builds, boring, more of the same, no identity, no min maxing, no flexibility and braindead. Do you remember how endless survival was back when shield gating wasn't a thing? Volt shield, Mag bubble, Frost bubble, Zenistar or Octavia mellet, boring strat that involved everyone finding one spot and staying there for hours without moving a finger just spaming the same shit over and over again, the most boring and lame gameplay that i ever did. Now at least we can move, we can fight and even when we still playing at the edge while using shield gating, every build feels different, every build has identity, and you don't need to stay in one place doing a braindead strat to survive. Remove shield gating and you're just encouraging people to play the same shit all over again.
@@CrisHermetica Same reason they had to fix shields at one point. Gameplay systems that haven't been touched in a long time get reworked eventually.
Shield gating is nice imo. Now you can take squishy frames on high level content solo. DE just need to buff armor or the tanks to scale in endurance runs
that would only introduce even more power creep
@@ThunderingRoarWhich is not a problem, no one plays warframe for challenging combat.
@@ThunderingRoar I'm pretty sure Warframe power crept a long time ago already. that's why DE can't balance shit.
Nerfing shield gating without an insane gamplay and enemy level rework destroys all high level build variety. Then it really will be only invisible frames+ eclipse to level cap. Also, I assume you have problems with rolling guard and vazerin since its even longer and more free invincibility?
It only hurts levelcap players. Just because some bad support abilities were made doesnt mean you have to decrease survivability to the rest of the cast. You can make a health tank build and have fun if you want. I love my nova health tank i made for a video.
Again im fine with a rework on how enemy damage works in the game and shield gating but not just nerfing shield gating. Something needs buffed, not nerfed
Good video though. I realize im in the minority since i care about builds for level capping. Its just the most fun to theory craft
100% agree. Shield gating has people running around with a debuff key. I wouldn't mind shield gating that had a separate timer debuff rather than relative to shields.
There's clearly a problem when armor and health are useless stats.
Yes and resistance to elements is almost non-existent
Preach it.
I'm genuinely partial to the 40%/25% nerf simply because that would make the mod set feel more like it did at inception- as slight buffs to various stats you might want buffed, with a small, SMALL, bonus from the set bonus.
The set felt fine back then, but now the main purpose for them is the set bonus thanks to gating and that just sucks.
Also I could be mis-remembering but I'm pretty sure modern gating isn't nearly that old. I'm pretty sure the 1.3 second no-insta-die adjustment was like late 2019 to 2020, not as long ago as 2017, but I can't pretend the change was memorable enough to stick out so that's just needless rambling.
Also a number squish would be nice in general since the exponential growth has allowed a lot to slip by lol.
Yeah, it was actually update 27.2 aka march. 2020
Number squish, especially damage, would make a lot of sense because most frames have VERY low health, and armor and shields deplete almost instantly. I think warframe shields should be different than other shields in the game and be a lot tankier.
Great points across the board! I think if shield gating has to still be in the game, the protection provided should be proportional to the amount of shield lost. You know, increasing shields makes you tougher instead of decreasing? So maybe every 100 shields lost from a hit (or in the last fraction of a second) gives 0.10 seconds of shield gating or something like that. The goal was to prevent getting one-shotted through shields to make shields more viable, this actually incentivizes getting more shields to that end.
I agree about nerfing the myriad of 90% damage reduction sources... It is pretty insane. I might take all of them down to 75% (though your ~50% idea isn't unreasonable) with the exception of armor if I ran the circus.
I think 100 -> 0.1 is not nearly enough, but I like the idea, that could be intresting.
I agree with the shield gating thing idk why you get punished for having more shields but nerfing damage resist would only increase shield gating and it’s use also damage resist still needs healing to back it up or you’ll get chipped down and especially in SP that’ll happen quicker than you think
@@empiyrr2133 The implication with nerfing the 90% damage reduction (DR) sources is, I think, that incoming enemy damage would be lowered more or less proportionally. As Semtexagon illustrated in the video, a frame like Voruna with no 90% DR in her kit absolutely has to rely on shield gating or she is taking 10x as much damage as a frame like Citrine.
DE has painted themselves into a corner with this where every new frame needs a 90% reduction or it feels squishy. Alternate survivability strategies like Voruna's break-on-attack invisibility or Gyres try-to-CC-everything are not really viable, and shield gating is currently filling the gap.
Reducing these DR values to 75% or 50% would mean we are near a design space where a "squishy" character is taking either 4 times or 2 times as much damage as one with a DR ability instead of 10 times as much. Now there is a possibility of reasonably implementing alternative survivability options.
This is all from the perspective of Steel Path non-endurance, which is the de facto balancing point at this time in Warframe.
are you guys really complaining about people being able to be powerful? the video literally has a part about fucking power fatigue where he goes on about how everyone is hidding how tired of being powerful they are with(i assume) a straight face... may god be merciful so that there is no one on DE with this level of insanity in their minds
I don't think it's Shield Gating that's causing these types of problems. I think it's the fact that they built the game to be borderline impossible to survive at later levels due to one-shot potential. Hildryn was the first instance of Shield Gating and the community raved about it since it provided a way to survive the one-shots in endurance content. With the introduction of steel path and content that started at higher levels (starting at 100+) becoming common something like shield gating was an inevitability. Even with 90% damage reduction many high level enemies still deleted players from full HP/Shields.
Warframe is in an iffy situation, doing a number squish will do almost nothing for them in the long run. If they keep going the way they are it'll cause problems down the road in terms of build variety and health (moreso than it already has). One thing they should definitely do though is either remove the dragon-keys and adjust where corrupted mods come from or make the keys only work on missions with vaults, doing so would help with the gating cheese.
As a bunch of people have said, healing eventually becomes inefficient as you'll get one-shot anyway. Because of this, stuff like Gloom isn't too much of an issue.
You have it backwards. The reason endgame was designed to one-shot you is BECAUSE shield gating existed. The developers knew that One-Shot enemies was the only way to create the facade of a challenge because shield gating exists. If shield gating wasn't in the game, the enemies would have never been designed to one shot you in the first place.
@@RuecianGray As someone who played WAY WAY WAY before shield gating was a thing, I still remember when hyldrin released and she was considered very strong as a tank and support specifically because of it, you are factually wrong.
Enemies on high level nodes could, and would, usually just blow you up if you had no way of mitigating the damage. It's the reason stuff like Ironskin and Warding Halo builds were so desirable.
Without shield gating people would be bitching about being oneshot again.
Nice vid, I like your idea about rebalancing DR and enemy damage numbers.
What about this idea - the shield gate invincibility duration scales with your total shield pool. So for example someone with a decaying key that has 75 shield would only get an invincibility duration of ~ 0.5 seconds. But say you have 2000 total shields then you get ~ 3 second invincibility duration. This would actually incentivize frames like Mag, Volt, Caliban who can regenerate a lot of shields to actually build for them.
It's always seemed silly to me that the best survivability tactic is to lower your effective hp amount
that does mean Hildryn will need to get her passive reworked.
Frames like mag and others who can generate a lot of shield fast don't really need to build for shields, cos usually they can also generate that fat stack of 1,2k overshields. adaptation tends to be a lot better than redirection as a mod for such frames, and building for power strenght (and sometimes range) so you can regenerate that shield back really fast.
On the other hand, you can play those frames to rely on CC, not survivability to stay alive. Kind of how frames like Xaku, Gyre, Banshee and Mirage works. They all get more or less blown up instantly even at sortie level content if you get hit while shield gate is out.. to be fair, mirage has her clones to confuse enemies and xaku has that 75% evade chance, but gyre and banshee rely 100% on cc. Best possible extra survivability for such frames you can give is rolling guard.
To be fair so many enemies can one shot you nowadays that standing around and just pressing one button isn't possible for most players' energy economies. That's why movement and cc (eximus exists so you still have to be aware) works hand in hand with shield gating making it a much more active gameplay design as opposed to armor where you just face tank stuff or invisibility where you just press one button.
You could still require players to do all of that stuff by making enemies hit hard but not so hard that you literally die in 2-3 hits and that would free up tons and tons of room for more playstyles and support abilities to be relevant. The reason enemies one-shot you is because DE designed them knowing that shield gating exists. If shield gating never existed, the enemies wouldn't have been designed with the ability to one shot you in the first place. That is why shield gating is the source of the bad game design choices.
Shield gating isn’t needed 95% of the time and is mostly used for level cap. It’s not brainless I am invincible thing because you gotta learn how to time it and use it right.
If shield gating gets nerfed so level cap will probably be impossible so I don’t see the point of this video. Stop asking for nerfs out of no where but then again this is coming from a guy who had the worst tier list for warframe so it's kind of expected.
He probably didn't even played level cap pre shield gating, and come to think of it. level capping pre shield gating must be BORING. the closest playstyle I could think of is camping. which is inarguably the worst playstyle in Warframe.
The only Warframe ive ever used shield gating for that doesn't have shield regeneration abilities (like mag) is Khora. I hate shield gating strats and i hate that whenever you complain about a frame being weak the solution offered to you is just abuse shield gating. With Khora, you already want to spam whipclaw to deal inconsistent but high damage aoe strikes to enemies, so she is the only frame i use that makes sense to use shield gating but its still a tense, spammy playstyle.
Steel path and level cap runs is what spawned shield gating strats to be more spread around and popular, and it makes sense. Unless you are using mag you are not going to easily regain your shield gate. Defense frames like Citrine can survive a long time without needing shield gate, but if you want to push her further into higher levels you do start to need it.
So in conclusion its not necessary for 95% of players, is annoying to use, and is required for very high levels. Also frames that have no shields become useless as they don't have that ability too lol.
Oh also the problem with caliban is his stupid summons don't give him shield constantly, if your shield breaks you have to wait until they start naturally recharging again to regain shields, unlike protea who can just pick up another shield grenade to instantly gain shield and start recharging them. His summons should do the same, then i would use him.
Also, can I just say... Poor Banshee.
Also if Calibans summons did bypass shield delay that would make him actaully unable to die. But that's just a flawed design then.
@@semtexagon Not constant regeneration, but they would reduce that delay before you can start recharging again basically
Citrine doesnt actually need it at 9999
I agree, in a sense that it is the only viable method to survive high level encounter. It's definitely not balanced. They should buff our armor.
Not just armor but all stats. The shields get destroyed way too quickly and most frames have minuscule health pools. When enemies do thousands of damage per shot 350 HP is absolutely nothing.
That's why they introduced shield gating, because DE devs are extremely lazy and they prefer to never actually balance or fix anything because it's too much work for them. Most games have balanced survivability mechanics, I can give one game as an example that I played a lot, it's Diablo 3. The game balances health recovery and damage reduction pretty well (or it used to before buffing gear sets to oblivion). In short, I'll give an example: where is life recovery on hit in this game? You have like 2 or 3 mods for that.
Their are way to survive like wisp invis and super op defense abilities like 99% dmg reduction
@@AMV_KINGDOM_mv And I was talking about armor. So, do you think we can survive with armor alone?
It is technically an 'another way to survive' just like what you said. But, I will ask again, can you survive with armor alone?
@@VitchAndVorty if you need to narrow it down to "can you survive on armour alone" you're a moron who is just bad. you shouldn't be able to survive on armour alone.
There's an issue with this.... If you remove those, all the warframes that were "fixed" With shield gating are going to Feel awful to play again.... So it would create more work for DE to do, which im not sure they like? XD. Maybe not nerf those things but change them instead, allowing them to work only on frames that have low health and/or armor, while buffing armor so it scales better and doesnt need other mods like adaptation (one thing they could do is making armor more impervious to status effects, reducing the effectiveness of them the higher it is)
Defense stats and modding need to be separated like in most games that are made by sane designers. They actually did it for railjack but thats probably cause its a ship. As it is, either frames have the right combo of stats and abilities or they only have shield gate or they only need a high DR/ignore/dodge ability in their kit to work with. Anything else dies to a lvl 100 fart. Man if we had any semblance of balance then maybe Protea's ult wold actually be useful for damage reversal.
A simple fix would be to have shield gatte have an inner CD.
Although i think the issue lie deeper withing the game core aspect, enemies design and overall is simply badly done the game lack clarity (what enemies does what / which attack hit you / scalling) getting rid of shield gatting (or perhaps making it a specific mod with condition / CD) would be better but to do so they would need to rework everything. (with they should if you only take game design into account, sadly it would cost to much money and time to do so)
Thing is, what I get from this, is that the survivability, damage and enemy lvl aspects in Warframe itself are broken and shield gating is just the band aid.
So by just removing shield gating it would just unveil a massive wound within the game's balance. And the game would bleed to death in a few days.
If they remove shield gating they had to overhaul the entire enemy leveling system and how Armor, DR and just damage in general works. And aside from the fact that I see DE incapable of doing that considering how their most recent upgrades looked like and how obvious it is that the game grew beyond their control, if you basically have to overhaul entirely how the named aspects (DR, Dam, Survivability, Enemy Lvl) work, you'd also have to rework loot and grind, due to how different the game would feel like and have to massively compensate players who basically lost all their builds.
Tl;Dr: If DE wanted to remove Shield, they'd have to overhaul the ENTIRE game. So I guess it's shield gating or bust.
TL; DR :
- Shield Gating not a problem but the abuse of it is
- Instead of protecting itself from ennemies or killing them during Shield Gate, the players restore their shields to keep an invulnerability loop
- Using the Decaying Dragon Key is a strong game design issue and must be nerfed
Solutions :
- Higher Percentage Based Shield Regeneration (Mods and Abilities must be tweaked)
- Shield Regen cooldown on Shield Gate reduced to 2 sec
- Invulnerability time must scales with Base Shields bounded from below at 1 sec
- On Shield Gate : Inability to restore shields except from Natural Regeneration until a certain amount of shields is reached
- Overshield Gate : When losing overshields, there is a weaker version of shield gate giving 1 sec of Invulnerability but overshields cannot be earned for 5 sec
My opinion and ideas :
I fully understand the issues created by Shield Gating. The thing is that Shield Gating in itself is not problematic at all, it is when the players found how to abuse it that the problem started.
Shield Gating was introduced as a way to prevent +100 level ennemies from 1-Shotting a large majority of the Warframes in the game. In the period of time granted by the Shield Gate, the player must either : cover himself out of the fire of the ennemies or try to eliminate the source of the damage, not trying to refill its own shield to repeat the process.
But then, the players found that they have mods that allows to keep the invulnerable state without any counterpart. They even turned the Decaying Dragon Key, an item providing a debuff as a challenge to get the Corrupted Mods to improve the efficiency of this method. I repeat they used an item DESIGNED AS A DEBUFF to make their frames EASILY INVULNERABLE (am I the only one that see the problem here).
To solve this, I see many options :
First, the Shield Regen must be more percentage based, making Frames with High Shields and Shield Based Builds tank more damage. Actually, the perfect frame for Shield Gate theoretically is a Frame with 1 Shield which sounds really wierd. This also solve the problem of the Dragon Key that return to its Vault-opening function and the time between the 2 Shield Gates common to all Warframes. Also, we reduce the 4 sec of no damage taken delay between the shield gate and the start of the shield regeneration to 2 sec. This also implies some changes for the Shield Regeneration Mods and Abilities. Let's say Warframes regenerate 10% of their shields per second.
Secondly, the invulnerability should match with the amount of base shields at Rank 0. We could go with Max Shields or depleted shields but that would be unfair between Grendel and its 75 Shields and a full modded Hildryn Prime with its 6300 shields, that is why I chose to go over Base Shields. I chose a base of 100 shields = 1 sec of invulnerability, bounded from below at 1 sec of invulnerability to allow frames like Grendel with really low shields to benefit from Shield Gating. However, to counter balance this, the Shield Gate gives a debuff that prevent Shield Regeneration by any means except Natural Shield Regeneration until a certain amount of shields is reached (Let's say 40%, equivalent to 5 seconds). This debuff is only valid when Shield Gate is triggered obviously.
Bonus "Overshield Shield Gate" (Overshield Gate) : When breaking the Overshield, the Warframe benefit from a weaker version of Shield Gate which grants 1 sec of invulnerability and the impossibility to earn Overshields for 5 sec.
This may be a little bit confusing so let's see some examples. For them, we suppose that the base Shield Regeneration is about 10% of the Frame Max Health per sec. I will mostly consider 1-Shot Cases as it's the most common use of Shield Gating
Example : Excalibur without shields mods : 300 Shields (100 Base Shields at Rank 0) => 30 Shield Regen per sec
If shields get One Shotted, he gets 1 sec of invulnerability and 6.5 sec of inability to regain shields except from Natural Regeneration.
After the shield gate expired, Excalibur must still wait 1 sec at 0 Shields to start regenerating naturally his shields.
If Excalibur didn't take any damage, then he regenerated 150 Shields before being able to regenerate shields by any means possible. However, he still needs 6.5 more seconds to fully restore his shields naturally.
In the end, Excalibur spent 6.5 seconds in danger if he used the Squad Shield Restore or 12 sec if he didn't over 13 sec.
If Excalibur is modded with redirection, nothing changes except the amount of shields restored before being able to regenerate his shields by any mean possible.
Example 2 : Hildryn Prime : 1660 Shields (475 Base Shields at Rank 0) => 166 Shields Regen per sec
If shields get One Shotted, she gets 4.75 sec of invulnerability and 6.5 sec of inability to regain shields except from Natural Regeneration.
After the shield gate expired, Hildryn already started to regenerate 456 of her shields naturally.
If Hildryn didn't take any damage, then she regenerated 665 Shields before being able to regenerate shields by any means possible. However, he still needs 6.5 more seconds to fully restore his shields naturally.
In the end, Hildryn spent 1.75 seconds in danger if she used the Squad Shield Restore or 8.25 sec if she didn't over 13 sec.
We can note that due to Hildryn using Shields as Energy, her passive must be tackled to make her more playable in this context.
I feel like the issue is that we need better damage balancing overall in the game, it's not just the shield gating fact. It's the fact that we have enemies who kill too easy to do things to a high level degree, and the fact that weapons if built right can just melt anything with modding it the right way. It's mostly become less of a challenge that requires coordination and more of a numbers game to make it easier to get things done.
True, the game is not balanced. All games face power creep at some point and if it is not solved it slowly ruins the game. DE, like usual, prefers to patch things instead of fixing the actual problem and giving passive solutions. Like mods and augments. It's so lazy.
I just want to see support frames be needed in steel path. I love playing support, but anyone who can take on level 100+ tends to not need any support to accomplish it.
I've been playing a lot of harrow, I can provide health, energy, i-frames and critical chance. Does anyone need it? No. They shield gate and face tank with the i-frames.
Unfortunately making a game where distinct roles shine is ... beyond Warframe at this point, I think. It would require a complete and total overhaul of player health, damage reduction abilities, enemy damage, enemy EHP, status, etc.
I don't think DE wants to or even CAN do that almost a decade into the game's life, especially because they keep f***ing leaning into the problems with their releases.
I know that feeling. Support is my favorite role with DPS being my last pick.
Well spoken
It's impossible, make support more relevant is needed but make them needed for steel path ? No, remember they're still some people who play solo, like it or not if those people enjoy the game like that. Me for exemple I play with some friends but we not always play at the same time, so if we need support for steel path I jsut can't farm steel essence just because of that ? (If it's look offensive sorry my english is bad :x), they need to take that in consideration so yeah impossible
Harrow mechanics make it a solo frame as in group the other members simply negate your playstyle and flow. I have no issues bringing Trinity or Wisp in to SP and be effective...
i really hope other ways to make warframes more survivable are introduced because shield gating really does make so many feel the same.,
What I wouldn't give for a helminth ability that's just like 75% max damage reduction with a base 25s duration.
@@Dac85 Doesnt mirages eclipse do that, but only in the dark? Think its 90% on mirage and 75% subsumed on another frame.
@CH1KN _Tenders varies depending on light level. The values displayed are only max potential values. Also losing or getting it depending on what is arbitrarily decided to be light or shadow depending on what drugs the designers were in when they were assigning light maps.
@@Dac85 thats not enough when enemies do hundreds of thousands to millions of damage with every attack
Like more ways of healing, for example I would like life on hit and life on kill to be a thing. Even life steal. There are like 3 mods that do that and badly.
For me, the problem is not really shield gating. The issue is:
1 shield gate can be spammed.
2 the scaling curve that make impossible to balance high and low level because of the difference between them and that allow enemies to OS you.
3 cc frame have no defense against eximus without it.
4 health and armor tanking is not effective enough (and before you say passive defense is bad, i agree but who said it has to be passive (parasitic armor of helminth or the arcane that boost health on hp overflow)).
And to fix them I would.
1 add a small cooldown slightly longer than the duration.
2 make it so that the curve is flatter the higher you go (also cap status tic damage by a % of player health).
3 make the overshield give cc resistance instead of immunity (downgrade the effect of cc to a lower one or give a limit on the duration with a timed immunity when coming out of a cc).
4 technically could be solved by 2 but could also add a helminth ability or arcane or mods that give scaling health (compared to enemy dps on you in a certain duration) if you do something specific (again it has to be active (not like defi pre wukong rework).
Shield gating doesn't need to be removed, it just needs tweaking. At the very least, it shouldn't be an incentive to purposely nerf your own shields with a decaying dragon key. I think it should be the other way around and reward bigger shield pools instead, that way it could scale a bit higher while actually having an opportunity cost.
Look bro works for de that’s exactly what they did
@@madkingace1798 Yeah looks like i called it lol. If i did work for DE, i could be your inside man 😂
I definitely agree on this state of things being DE watering everything down to what is more convenient. You can decide not to follow the meta, but it's still the only real efficient alternative and it sucks.
Don't necessarily agree with all of this but you're right about the revenant augment, affinity range is ridiculous, they could've at least made you sacrifice some strength for good range
No, they made a good augment and you guys are bitching about it. Shield gating saved warframe and made the game better. Short story is shield gating gave survivability to warframes that didn’t have it.
@@ExcaliburGT I agree but what does that have to do with the augment? The augment kinda invalidates any other defensive support
@@ictuates okay? Why are you complaining? They made a really good augment mod.
@@ExcaliburGT 👍👍👍
The argument in itself is flawed. why on earth would someone care for a mechanic that doesn't even affect the whole teamplay of Warframe at all? I mean sure teamplay is nigh inexistent but MAYBE DE should focus on making adjustments to that instead of shield gating? making teamplay an actual teamplay. making the "roles" of each frame an absolute NECESSITY in a team. that could ease down players cheesing the mechanic.
I dont use shield gating at all, one of those things i ignore since i dont feel i need it for normal gameplay. i recently completed the steel path with Volt and Octavia. My volt has no defensive mods, i rely completely on holding a shield and crowd control.
teamwork died a long time ago when Relics replaced Voidkeys. Power creep didnt hit yet, and to do well in T4 defense or survival you needed 4 players with highly specific builds cooperating and relying on each other. i finished farming hildryn with minimal interaction with players. spammed Ukko and Hepit with Titania for lith, meso, and neo. And would leave Apollo at wave 8, since most randoms cant go beyond that and there isnt much point to staying longer. Lockdown or Snare Demolishers, glaive them a few times and you win. i could have done that solo too, but its a bit faster with randoms. Until recently ive always played with an extremely basic mesa build or stand around as octavia. because of relics and the way rewards are delivered, staying longer in anything other than survival is just a waste of time and completely optional. so shield gating existing or being removed, im entirely neutral on its impact.
I say don't bring shield gating down, just bring everything else out of irrelevancy. Shield gating is not inherently a bad mechanic, it's a lack of real alternative for survivability in endgame content for most frames. They need reworks, to change augments, etc. Also don't forget switch/console/controller players often need crutches like Mesmer shield to even compete with PC players.
i can understand where you are coming from but i think the main issue is simply enemy damage. unlike armor, hp and shields their damage scales with no attenuation to the point where past a certain point damage reduction becomes utterly worthless , changing enemy dmg to the point where it caps past a certain level (only between enemies and frame not between enemies and objects or enemies and specters) is the way to go.
additionally every frame should get access to high dmg reduction maybe in the form of a 90% dr helminth that can only be applied on frames that dont have a dr ability of their own (similar to how u cant put xw and roar on the same frame), if that where to be done frames like voruna would be able to survive while also leaving shield gate intact.
but this brings us to the question :
"why should i use dr over shield gating if shield gating makes me 100% invulnerable?" well unlike damage reduction shield gating would need u to be constantly casting abilities to keep up ur shields plus it would still have its 2 main weaknesses :
1 reliance on energy , as de showed us they can very easily take away our energy like in energy drain modifier during disruption
2 toxin damage , toxin directly bypasses shields in both its damage and its proc de could make missions where every enemy has toxin damage and where damage reduction will be better since shield gating will not work
(sorry for any grammatical error english isnt my first language)
It’s a band aid, a coverup to the fact DE is not always on point with creating well rounded frames that can survive a moderate amount of damage. I personally hate it, but it’s better than having nothing at all. People who like pressing an ability button EVERYTIME they’ve been damaged are insane.
Shield gating is not the problem ... Most of the frame rely on that but the real question is why ? and if you look, armor is USELESS and I stop there since just a change on how armor work can make health viable for tanking so it diversify the build. And the best exemple INAROS ... I love this frame, I can't use it on archon hunt without getting destroy in a millisecond, and with a max arcane guardian proc... so before thinking about any nerf they must need to buff armor. But yeah if we look from afar they need to rebalance almost all the game so ... SAD
Yes. I love Inaros and I would use him more often if he would have a health gate mechanic or passive. Maybe if he takes more than 90% of total health in one hit make him invulnerable for at least the shield gate duration or up to 3 seconds? And give that a cooldown. That's the most basic fix, or maybe actually make his passive scale and be useful?
I'm not sure it's fair to discuss shield gating as the worst thing to happen to warframe because it makes you 100% invincible, without also discussing the other sources of gaining damage invulnerability that are significantly more effective. Like, Rolling Guard users can just push the roll button and get three seconds of invincibility every seven. Vazarin operators can just void sling to get five seconds of invulnerability, with enough time to recharge operator energy and do the same infinitely. If shield gating wasn't the way to become invincible, those who would abuse it would just go to the next source of damage invulnerability. Sure, the fact that shield gating just happens as you use abilities is pretty bad, but pushing a button or two and achieving the same is also pretty bad, and I don't see DE nerfing that many mods, or nerfing a focus tree, or reworking health again any time soon.
Only frame i use shield gating is with my Hildryn, jokes aside, DE has lost the touch of balance and fun, SP is a joke, they just cracked the modifiers and let the players decide to play it or not, they should start making smarter enemies, or enemies that counter the tenno features, we have some in zariman that disable the WF entirely, we need more types of enemies.
augur made all those mods that increase shield regen obsolete.
i think it is more than time that DE make shield have some resistance and work with armor, not directly, but the hit that would break the shield would be heavily nerfed by shield resistance and the armor, would be cool to have mod that increase shield and give some effect , like when broke, blind enemies, or stun, release a shock.
Anyway the first case of shield gating i remember is the OG starcraft , where a ghost attacking a carrier would create it, if the carrier had all armor and shield upgrades , it would mean the ghost 7 dmg attack would be 3 consumed by the 1 point of shield it regen between attacks and 3 by armor, so the atack does 1 damage.
Maybe we need something that only works with shields, like armor works with health, a new defensive stat...
@@semtexagon yep, it is kind of funny DE did something like that, mag has the attractor that attract bullets , but only bullets, so beam and energy weapon bypass it.
It is also ironic that when DE changed slash to affect shield before health, it nerfed players killing, but also removed the enemy way to bypass shield aside toxic status, i remember how frustrating it was to die with full shield because i got too many slash damage from heavy gunners, so i used rapid resilience or the anti slash arcane, but today is just shield gating to not die.
@@semtexagonwe have over-shields but it's kinda niche. Either a rework of that or shields should be more resistant or tanky.
Someone didn't play before shield gating. I would just... love .... to go back to playing 4 frames.
Let's take a quick trip down memory lane to the days when tier III void keys runs required every enemy on the map to be crowd controlled in some way because if even 1 enemy wasn't it could wipe the squad.
I'm talking back when the void Lazer consoles in the defense tile were actually monitored and used to effectively clear the defense wave.
I'm talking back when Nyx was the defense meta.
Those missions were a slog to get through, and the entire consisted of dumping endless rounds into massive stationary health pools.
There is a reason the game was pushed away from that playstyle. You can argue the pendulum swung a little to far, but for the love of Void you do not want it to even inch too far the other way.
I'll take my chances. I don't think there is any set of 3 sweeping changes that could bring even even close to those days
@@semtexagonhy would you want to go back to those days it was hella boring and very restrictive.
LR2 with anything unlocked here. I guess i made peace with playing shieldgating, i'm just sad that with overall powercreep i don't find a way to be a reliable / helpful support playing Oberon.
I also don't understand how some people judgement became so twisted that they dub as "unplayable / shit" anything that doesn't breeze through level cap like it was more important than having fun in 99.9% of the rest of the game.
So yeah i'm kinda with you on this one, albeit not hopeful to see any change.
I'll take it :)
Shield gating is good for squishy warframes like gyre... But any time someone has told me to put a decaying dragon key on warframes like fucking styanax for even base steel path I've gotten desires for acts of incredible violence. Honestly they should just re scale enemy damage and defensive abilities to allow tanks to, well, fucking tank again
i think its fine but armor builds should also be on par. i have to go thru hoops just to make something that will barely survive on base sp
Not just armor builds but shield builds and health builds as well. And we need more ways to gain resistance, I don't mean straight damage reduction but elemental and physical res.
@@futavadumnezo Sure, but we have limited mod slots, it's definitely going to be put into build considerations if "resistance" modifiers are at play, but then again, damage scaling. it doesn't matter if you can resist if you're going to be hit with a 1m damage from a random mob/damage from an elemental tick.
Hundreds of mods and u dont need any of them, just the 10-15 for every frame. Why designing anything new if have no use... Im not using shield gating, cause dont need for SP 1h+ missions and im not willing to play that long in the same boring mission when mobs die by a small sneez. This is just sad IMHO. Back then before SP i quited from WF for long time cause i refuse to stay in missions for 2-3 hrs long to see a little bit of difficult increase, now i feel the same with SP. :(
I want an option where a host can select example the defense mission starting wave like 1 / 6 / 11 and so on up to whatever u want. Wasting time for low drop chance rewards till the chance increase and yet the mission is still about being AFK and just sneez on mobs time to time and the whole map die.
When 99% damage reduction still gets you oneshotted what options are left if not damage invulnerability and shield gating is the best we have
That's the issue. Why do enemies need to one shot? I get it if we had unlimited revives but...
@@futavadumnezo because that's what damage scaling does, and our health and damage reduction don't cut it anymore aster a certain point, CC is put of the question because the most dangerous enemies are immune to it, only solution is temporary invulnerability and shield gate is the most effective
One thing I like about warframe is that you can play the game however u like. And I've played thru the majority of the content in this game without ever using or knowing how to sheild gate.
For newer or casual players, don't feel like you NEED to sheild gate. And to players that think sheild gating is fun.. keep doing it, the game is PvE so ur not affecting anybody else negatively.
GGs guys. Love to see the community so active
You should do a master class on how to respectfully disagree.
I kinda like the shield gating mechanic and I use it, but I dont abuse it. Never run hobbled dragon key, but I tend to throw one or two augur mods on my build just for the stats. Augur reach, secrets and message are all kinda solid mods for lower capacity to queeze in without negative side effects so I can get one or two extra short invulnerability phases if I end up in a bad spot. but usually my first instinc is to get out of the situation, cos I don't build for high efficiency usually so I could spawm abilities to stay alive forever with just shield gates. with the exception when I play protea, I might sit on her shield satellites when thrown sometimes if I need to be a meat shield for defence target or something.
I didn't even knew how to shield gate until yesterday, and I have 1000 hours lol
Never cared to know about it since I was used to play tank or heavy cc frames
I see your point of view on shield gating, and yeah it's boring as hell to see every new frame's debut build video from all these creators practically require those mods and key, but it requires a higher skill ceiling to be able to keep the rotations up, keep your energy up while still dealing enough damage to keep up with high level enemies. Since all enemies in the game aside from the melee units or entity projectiles have hitscan weapons and near perfect accuracy, it's an absolute must for frames with little to no armor or survivability options at high levels. Many frames wouldn't stand a prayer to go a full 4 rotations of steel path without it.
But the way I see it, like you said of there being only 3 types of frames in the game, I see shield gating as the antithesis of the heavily armored, shielded or tanky frame. One style rewards bolstering survivability in the form of armor, shields, and abilities, shield gating frames can allow less defense focused frames the ability to reach those points in the game as well, in the form of highly resource heavy builds, and the main issue of maintaining that energy gain through fast paced play and attention to your shields as well as ability rotations. Getting knocked on your back bc you didn't use the unairu tree for poise or PSF is a quick way to burn a revive in a mission.
It kind of puts me in mind of Dragon Age Inquisition in a sense with shields and armor. Shield being magic based and granted by individual spells or passives, and armor, gained by physically engaging with your enemies with your abilities. Both are volatile temporary health pools with different approaches to maintain them without dipping into health that is more troublesome to restore than shields or armor (since healing pots were a limited stock between camp visits, but it could also be loosely equated to revives in warframe)
To me, it feels like warframes DR abilities and mods behave like one 'class' sort of like a warrior in other RPGs (although it would be the opposite by DA:I's perspective) while the fast paced energy hungry casting frames allow you the rush of faster paced play while feeling like the enemy can't keep up with you to take you out (bc that's much easier to implement than a momentum based margin for error in enemy shots when so many enemies have flawless aimbot.)
I also think it's pretty cool that these options for survivability are in the game, without being a specific role you're locked into like other games.
That being said, the disparity in effectiveness of each tactic is plain to see, but I also think it is fitting that the more difficult path of high risk high reward of shield gating is more viable into endurance levels. And while synergies between frames helping the other survive is fun, I don't want all of the higher level content and rewards require another person at a similar point of progression as myself, or to have the will to form a cohesive plan or play a set role, just to play the game. Archon hunts are especially one of these moments, bc I hate loading into public matches and have 3 randoms trigger 3 separate keys, and most if not all being woefully incapable of downing any of the demos.
I know I kinda wrote a book, but I guess the TL;DR is:
I personally enjoy the shield gating mechanics, and it's more demanding builds and style is a decent payoff, but it lends another layer to how you play Warframe, even if some setups are a bit too comfortable to the point of being able to survive with minimal effort.
disagree that SG is 'ruining' WF , but i do understand the problem of homogenization ; similarly i build rolling guard and prime sure footed on almost every frame , are those also problems? XD [maybe, but not the same] ; remove the incentive for running the decay key , ie more shields equals longer SG invul window and less is shorter , a linear equation keeps this balanced , simultaneously raises the incentive for the +recharge mods which have been lackluster for years [some more interesting dual stat mods could help with this] ; tangentially what WF needs more than nerfs to squishy survival options is for high-tier challenges besides excruciatingly long endurance runs [ie we need a challenge that doesnt require gaming on the toilet or going afk for 3-4+ hours before the game gets dangerous] ie there is nothing ingame that needs max builds , not archons , not eidolons , nothing , so whats the point of having a min-max'd build? it just makes the content that you were doing before with your subpar build easier , that is lackluster and has been for awhile , Steel Path was weaksauce and implemented poorly/lamely , it needs to be iterated upon and it needs to be dynamic [ie getting progressively more and more difficult thru various different means on a consistent level the more you play it , ie a progressive challenge that demands/requires the tenno to step or get rekt'd]
i'm fine with shield gating being good(especially for the squishier frame), however i don't like it for the fact that it render armor and health obsolete. why pump your health and armor up when you can just say no to any damage.
Yes, and any form of survivability. Shield gating sounds more like a warframe passive than a viable game mechanic.
This game needs proper balancing.
@@futavadumnezo because Shield gating IS A PASSIVE, that's why I don't get the uploader talking about shield gating as if it's some sort of ability. it's not. anyone can use it(but it's not like everyone should)
A point id like to address in this video is the Decaying Dragon Key that every one uses , that should be changed, not shield gating. Why? Its simple, it represents a negative as in a challenge for a special reward, not as a positive for the hole game to abuse. DE Should add a secondary debuff like "You can gain shields ONLY by regeneration" or thing like this. Shield gating is making more warframes viable, than making supports useless. With 2400 H in shield gating help me use more frames than just a select few that wont get one shot in late game. I don't use the key btw. I don't find a great use for it when i have my operator for sticky situations
Going through the hole video you didn't address the Dragon Key. I totally understand you're point but when making changes like this you have tot take consideration on what is getting shadow nerfed
I think it is a bad idea to make suggestions to "balance" the game currently, more specifically bringing in suggestions to ruin the current flow of gameplay, especially from devs who let issues like this define the game (Like with the AoE "problem").
Killing energy-for-shield mods will just force shield generator weapons/abilities/frames or invulnerability/invisibility cheese. Removing/nerfing shield gating will take us back to (or heavily encourage) hallway camping. Damage reduction only matters if you actually take damage, if people even bother playing frames/modes where it ever matters to use DR. The game's pacing (other than low levels) will take a large hit.
The real issue is that defensive gameplay in Warframe barely even exists or matters beyond making the damage an enemy deals less than or equal to 1. Your best defense (Better than shield gating) is annihilating or cutting off an enemy's offense. Desiring to nerf any form of defense at this point, is just flat out ignorant to what is actually wrong with the game (Besides Revenant).
Shield gating is a lovely hot topic that people want to jump on, ignoring the many other things that hold it together or even what shield gating consists of for most frames, compared to slapping on mods/abilities to stand in front of damage. Where is parrying/blocking, crowd control techniques (beyond enemy can't attack), aggro drawing, the advantage of cover/high ground? Any meaningful defensive methods present in other games cannot even function in the design of Warframe. They even made units (Eximus) who flat out ignore methods of defending yourself in the game.
Getting rid of or limiting a defensive method that allows people to not turtle throughout the game, especially one that at least requires you to use a proper build to make use of it, fixes nothing. Actually putting an upper limit on the amount of damage that can be dealt/taken is the proper first step to moving past bs shield/energy spam shenanigans. That is what actually should be talked about by most "knowledgeable" Warframe guys to move beyond the awful landfill that this game's balance is in. But it seems to be easier & more popular to flavor of the [Insert timeframe] any disliked gameplay, regardless of most people's knowledge about it....
Always thought of an armor gating, like armor increase based on percentage of hp.
Inaros players will hail you as their god if that actually happened.
@@VitchAndVorty actually, I’m a Nidus main :)
@@torres_xp9089 No, no, I was talking about your take on "Armor-gate".
@@VitchAndVorty yeah i know, I mean both inaros and nidus(even if he’s a literal god) could be affected in a really positve way.
If DE decides to create more health/armor related warframe would be amazing.
Because doing big numbers is fun, but having a warframe with complex ability all linked together is way more fun
I'd like an armor rework. but completely removing shield gating just restricts the usability of frames that lacks the durability to survive on SP.
I agree every frame should be able to solo late game content without shield gating. But they can't. So if you take away shield gating you instantly rip late-game viability from 80% of frames. A whole load of frames would either need a rework or the enemy scaling as a whole would need a total overhaul before you could even consider removing shield gating.
I did say that I thought that removing shield gating right now would be a disaster, but that moving toward a point where you could remove shield gating would be a massive improvement on the game.
Now i gotta ask, but was it not a big deal when they added shield gating after years of telling how it would be bad for the game and was it not only something like 4 years ago.
Shield Gating was patch Update 27.2 (2020-03-05). NOT 2017. I dunno where the fuck you got that from man. We have not had it for over 6 years.
Notes from that patch - From the SHIELDS section on the Wiki:
Shield Gating
Friend and Foe
Friend: First, let’s answer ‘What is Shield Gating?’ when it applies to you as a player. In this implementation, Shield Gating is the mechanic of preventing an instance of lethal (‘1-shot’) damage if you have Shields active. Simply put, the goal is to reduce the number of ‘1-shots’ you take when your shields are up, particularly for Shield-based frames. When any shields are active, an incoming hit that depletes your last bit of Shields will not continue into your Health pool, and also triggers a brief time where your Health is protected. Once that period is over you can take Health damage normally. Additionally, you will no longer take Slash Status Effect damage to your Health while Shields are up.
Foe: Enemies - Corpus in particular - also have received a bit of a Shield Gating, but with skillful gameplay you can overcome this. Any Headshots or shots to Weakspots completely bypass Corpus enemy Shield Gating. In addition, 5% of the damage dealt when hitting the shield gate will target enemy Health - this allows you to take your Forma fueled weapons back to low level enemies and hit them hard instead of hitting the shield gate. The goal here is to make Shields a mechanic you want to play against with Mods (Auras, Elemental) or to bypass with skill (Headshots). Slash Status Effects will now deal damage over time to Shields, Toxin damage remains as-is (bypassing Shields to directly affect enemy Health). Damage from Warframe Abilities will ignore the enemy Shield Gate (i.e if an instance of Damage from an ability is greater than the Shield value, it will go into health as well).
I agree that SG is boring and bad, but 90% Dr is not nearly enough as is, I don't play some frames cause they don't have a specific Dr build in and you are saying reduce that to 40%, a big no no from me however I do believe that 3ach frame needs to have some tanking, most of the time with high shield frames I take pillage and adaptation along with its build in Dr like baruuk or stynax or hildy, ..... On the other hand, take xaku. How in the world do want to make him survivable if not with SG?
Buffing health and armor or DR that scales with enemy level would be interesting but I think it would make the game boring or rather unchallenging.
Imagine if that is the case when armor/health/DR scaling is applied to every warframe, then every warframe can be a health tank. This is even without certain Warframe abilities.
With Warframe abilities, imagine Citrine's DR + Wisp's health regen + Oberon's armor + a CC frame, this team is literally unkillable if health/armor scaling is adjusted to work in level cap. With a full blue archon shard (+ armor) this would be even ridiculous. You could either just stand afk and enemies would just tickle you.
I'm a returning player. Was so confused why my extra copies of Brief Respite and Augur mods are selling like hot cakes when these mods were barely looked at when they came out eons ago. I wouldn't say no to plats. Then I started to hear about shield gating which led me to this video. I agree that the core game philosophy needs to be reevaluated because if this trend continues there will be no reason to run support frames.
Shield gating never saved me. I know how it works in theory, but in practice it just never works because you need to have your entire shield destroyed in one hit for it to work, and if you go high level but not high high, then it won't really work reliably.
I am not sure I understand what you mean. You get a full shield gate if your shields have been fully recharged since breaking last time, irregardless of how long it takes for them to break this time.
Synergies/Teamwork: That's not really what Warframe is about in 2023. Most players builds these days are self-sufficient because most players play solo or PUG everything and thus cannot afford to rely on their team to complement their build. They don't need allies for energy, survivability, or damage support. That's just how things in this game are, and its been that way for years.
Character design: There are other options than shield gating. Stealth, kill enemies first, movement, mitigation, etc. Maybe not EVERY frame...but most don't actually REQUIRE shield gating. Voruna is mentioned a LOT in this video. There is a build that uses your 4 to make your 2 become rapid 4 and takes advantage of the fact that abilities don't take you out of 1's stealth. Try it.
Community: Shield gate, eclipse, and hunters munition? Meh. I have numerous builds that have none of those and do amazing. None of those 3 are even GOOD in every build.
Warframe went to shit the moment they removed super jump, change my mind.
They just need to have a cool down for shield gating to avoid invincibility but compensation is the invulnerability lasts twice as long
With the introduction of Catalyzing shields. this aged like milk.
I don't know, this video just sucks.
I still think shield gating is problematic, but I was cocking at all.
I haven't watched the whole video yet, but my problem is that being tanky in warframe is really really different from other games.
Rn, for mid-late game content at least, the definition of being tanky is simply being invincible (Shield gating or say, Revenant or even Zephyr)
I don't think shield gating should be gutted, but rather would like a buff to all other means of survivability, so they are all somewhat equal in terms of viability.
Armor should actually make a character tanky, shields should be something the player might want to focus on too and so on. Then they should add more means of getting said stats to a greater level, more interactivity. It's not easy to fix, but having a destination set helps.
I like the shield getting for two reasons.
1) huge amount of skill is required to abuse this game mechanics, and we al know it, majority of every game that exists doesn't want to sweat to stay alive.
Between Rolling guard, operator with Magus Elevate for the heal, repositioning ect. The amount of detail make the shield gating mechanic not so easy to master. Is not just dodge to activate rolling guard, and that's it.. no. Every single damage taken matter, so you have to be extremely careful about using rolling guard.
2) a skillful player who knows what he doing with the shield getting is rewarded by Taking out one or two tankyness mod for more damage, range, Ect..
You might say, the shield getting ruins support heal, aggro tank frame little bit useless. But in reality they're always be as powerful as they are.
Immortality by pressing one touch like Revenant, inaros, or having multiple damage reduction like Baruuk, making the frame litteraly unkillable and brain dead to use.
But, not every frame in this game share those OP as heck of skill/passive to become tanky and last for 10h of Steelpath survival just because they cannot be killed at all (like Revenant (DE what are you waiting for nerfing this thing ?)).
I am a simple casual Warframe player, that said I feel the game has focused more on the grind and game time gate than longevity of survival of frames
That's also true.
or just make decaying dragon key to not be the max shield, so that it won't trigger 1.3 second full shield gate
it would keep the mechanic but would make such build to be hard to make.
also brief respite need to be nerf
I personally do not agree with the idea that there should be forced synergies between teams, which is something you try and push by removing shield gating.
One of the things I enjoy about Warframe is just hoping on and playing, from a casual perspective, I dont want to spend the time to make a pre-made team between randoms to ensure that I have a synergized team, it can, sometimes, be too much of a hassle. SoloQ, in any game, is something I enjoy a lot. Forcing synergies would otherwise kill any form of SoloQ.
There is, the huge elephant in the room as well, which is people who prefer to play by themselves entirely (no random teammates) would basically be shafted or heavily restricted in what they can do. And Im pretty sure most Solo players do not enjoy sitting in a single room with Khora just mashing their abilities every few seconds... because it's boring, in fact, more boring and inactive than anything you even listed.
Another thing that this video completely brushes over is just the level of "invincibility" you talk about is something that can always, and will always, be achievable just in different ways. If someone wants to truly avoid dying, removing shield gating wont change how their achieve that, the only thing it does is inherently remove any form of variety which can exist. Again, all it does is reduce variety, it reduces what inactivity and fun can be had.
I do think there could be a better approach to dealing with high level content, but with the way the game is, shield-gating is a necessary thing.
I really really liked the idea of reducing the armor we gain and the 4x less damage from 100 lvl enemies
Higher level enemies should do more damage
Just have sheild gating on a cool down and remove it if you have a dragon key on. It's abused to do in intended content.
The reason why these videos won’t work is because if shield gating is removed then about 90% of Warframes will lose their value and be played a lot less
^THIS
Just started to explore shield gating as Mr 12 because I died a lot in steel path and then bam! This video come out. Coincidence? I think not!😂
Just ignore it, it's just an opinion after all. besides, it's a PVE game, so do what makes the game fun for you. shield gate or not, there are builds that doesn't need it but It's quite limited. so pick your poison.
Enemies packing toxin damage are laughing their asses off at this video lol
But in all seriousness, if you want solutions, here's a few:
1) Change Augur/Brief Respite to now instead reduces shield recharge delay, which incentivizes movement, which is the core of warframe, which is what makes the game fun.
2) Add health gating to diversify survivability styles. How it could work: split our health bar into two health bars, only the first health bar is health gated, and our damage reduction from armor directly defines how big the first health bar is. Example: a warframe with 300 health and 600 armor: 600 armor provides 66% damage reduction, so health from 300 to 100(aka 66%) would be gated, while health from 100 to 0 would not. Refreshing the health gate, a cooldown would probably be better than full restoration(just look at this video...).
3) Lv cap the enemies to 300, and have enemies have better AI as their lv climbs; x amount of enemies attempt to surround the player instead of running single-file, dodge if being in your crosshairs for x amount of time, x% increased movement speed, squads can initiate by x enemies throwing grenades simultaneously. You could increase/decrease the x by following margins in enemy lv like lv 50, 100, 200, then 300(or whatever numbers the community feedback demands).
I personally would like all three, now that I took the time to write all this.
all unrealistic solutions.
1. "Change Augur/Brief Respite to now instead reduces shield recharge delay, which incentivizes movement" I hope you do realize that in order for shield gating to work, you still need to cast abilities/move around to avoid being hit, right?
If you don't know, Shield gating is actually a very active playstyle specially if paired with Warframes that has no means of surviving at all. if you saw someone using this mechanic to a tank frame, then I wholeheartedly implore you to hate them.
2. "Add health gating to diversify survivability styles. How it could work: split our health bar into two health bars"
dude.. c'mon now. you're literally just describing how shield gating works with a hint of passive Adaptation on the side. besides, you're restricting this mechanic to frames that has high to decent health/armor. how about frames like Banshee with an armor pool as durable as a sheet of paper?
3. You're basically asking DE to rework the game's AI which they've been unable to fix for years. we don't know if it's the engine's limitation or the code is too complex to be fixed but it's an unrealistic request for them to do. if they do actually managed to fix the AI then good one.
I can't even about reducing level cap to 300. you're literally asking DE to remove the challenge in this game. so hell no.
Same nerf for Brief respite and the Augur Set as Rakta Dark Dagger got: "You only get shields as long as you have shields" and done
truthfully speaking, removing shield gating is basically deleting the endgame player base, and removing them makes warframe empty, and warframe being empty with no players means warframe shutting down.............if you can carry banshee/ inaros to lvl 9999 disruption without dying 3 times i will support remove shield gating
So... Should we put all the survivability mods on a warframe and still died at level 200? The thing here is warframe damage scaling is fked up. So peeps look for a better survivability and found shieldgate maybe nerfing it is good but what will happen to build diversity? Maybe fix the health/armor/damage scaling first and then nerf shieldgate
Exactly, nerfing/removing it only restricts builds diversity. it also just shifts the meta and will only make some builds unnecessarily more difficult to pull off.
I have disagreed with many some things you have said in the past for instance I enjoyed the eximus rework(post magnetic Nerf) BUT I 100% agree with you here. I am sick of shield gating just being the golden solution to survivablity and a few mods out classing even warframe abilities all because the level cap mouth breathers have a microphone. I miss survivablity being something you had to think about and not just ability spam with a aura mod
And what makes modding for health+armor+DR any better? It's literally less brain input than shield gating and shield gating doesn't go with DE's philosophy of nerfing thing which are
Does it ruin other players experience? No it does not, it's a solo survivability that doesn't negatively affects other players
Does it enable you to be afk? Lol no
Is it overused?
No, based on what I've seen majority of WF players barely use the shield gating mechanic and I've been playing on public lobbies for a very long time and has seen barely of them using the shield gate mechanic, apart form mr L1 to L2. a lot of region peeps as well asking and linking if their build is good or not, guess what? Not a single of them linked a shield gating build
L take
Yeah, especially with overguard, imagine banshee today without shield gating
He also was focused on the "spam ability = immortal", I almost never do that in any of my builds, it's a playstyle blended with stuff like silence, rolling guard, or a heat/rad epitaph to sort of strategize around your shield gate depending on the setup
Someone else that thinks they know how warframe works and didn't play back when enemies vaporized you at level 300 no matter what kind of health build you had. I've heard you out and I still disagree. Good day sir, yes my view is based on being solo player, because Warframe is not built around team synergy but weapon and warframe synergy
Shield gating is fine. It just points out the imbalance in survivability mechanics within the game. You can use health tanking if you want, but it requires more mods to do so, and doesn't scale as high. Vazarin spam is also a thing. Besides shield gating is primarily used for higher level gameplay. Such as level cap runs. Base game shield gating isn't an overpowered mechanic at all. We should be talking about buffing health tanking, not removing shield gating...
Imo, shield gating was meant solely for high so, and that’s what it’s really good at
My brother in christmas, you couldve asked anyone and they’d have told you that shield gating was only added in like 2021 not 2017
I did think 2017 was quite early. But I could only find that 1 mention at the time.
@@semtexagon around 2020 was shield gating intrdouced at least from the wiki
I had a hard time understanding the whole logic behind this video you are mixing up so much stuff altogether.
Warframe synergies can't play a factor here because most of the players play most of their time in random squads.
The damage creep making the game too easy is a completely different subject and can be solved way easier by releasing enemies and game modes that don't focus on nuking the whole room. This is DE's current strategy by the way.
What's left is you're saying that shield gating makes you too strong and at the same time you're critiquing Warframe for not having different survivability tools to deal with high level content.
Your solution is in a first step to simply rebalance the whole game so that all frames can kind of survive with the hp and armor. And then nerfing the mods so far, that builds can't rely on it, because your first step would be too powerful in combination with shield gating. So you're basically suggesting to make warframes even more similar to each other which contradicts the whole idea of warframes having different survivability tools in the first place. Plus it switches from an active shield monitoring playstyle into more passive playstyle.
While I understand your suggestions come from a place of good intention, I think you are missing the point here. Warframe is not meant to be difficult. Not even challenging by any means. And even if it was, it would still feel as dull because the enemies' AI is just bad.
The real problem is that enemies are too similar and game modes become boring fast. And this you can fix by releasing enemies with a wider variety of mechanics and more interesting game modes. Again, this is what DE clearly realized after using the 'nerfing everything that is fun to s***' approach for years. It didn't make any difference. People just switched over to another game breaking meta. Because warframe is the game in which they want to feel ridiculously overpowered.
Of course it will take time for the devs to release so many new game modes that it affects the perception of the game as a whole. A lot of time. In the meantime all we can do is to mix up our evenings with others games.
Letting people get to level cap was a mistake, like where do you go from there? Of course you should get oneshot at some point, that should be the whole point of having an incentive to get better loot till you can go higher without getting oneshot. If there's no actual difference between level 5000, level 10000 and level 100000000 what's even the point? Now we get restricted loadouts and all the bs because of it, because that's their only way to even add any difficulty to anything anymore.
The game needs an entire rework. All the set mods are super weak except 1 of their parts. If anything, the full set bonus of every set in the game needs a massive buff. You don't need brief respite or augur mods to shield gate, it's just passive for shields. For example on my mag I just press 3 and I get more shields. You could if you wanted to use a bunch of mods that do shield regeneration%. Dying is not the main concern in WF. It can happen but it probably won't. Your complaint only exists because players now have enough energy to spam abilities.
Q) Why not just ask for a nerf to "primed flow" or "archon flow"?
A) Because being in stealth is nearly the same as being invincible.
A) Valkire's 4, Harrow's 4, Hydriod's 3, Nyx's 4, Rhino's 2?, Revenant's 2, Volt's shielded direction give you invincibility in exchange for energy.
A) Rolling guard gives you invincibility when you dodge/roll same with Limbo
A) Using operator or necromec is basically the same as invincibility.
A) Anyone who thinks this game is too easy should just solo farm Grendel parts all day every day.
I have this on a few of my frames, including my ranged voruna. Subsumed Ivara's stealth arrow + use the augment. Now I'm invisible forever and generate energy globes and Immune to all statuses so I can't even die to toxic clouds or stray aoe procs of fire or slash. Everyone on my team can just walk into it and get the same immunity. If I want to move around with it, I just shoot the stealth arrow on my pet. If I want to group enemies I just hold it down for sound arrow and lure the entire map to 1 corner. Every time I would have died in WF I go into my operator and kill a few things and then I'm alive again. You can't even fall off the map to your death in this game. The main reason people lose in this game is they encounter 1 of the many, MANY, bugs/glitches.
I agree - I don't want to exist between i frames - I don't think it's a bad thing to have them, but they shut down survivability all together
No, I just used adaptive damage attenuation on my build. I don't have to worry about shields
you can complain all you want. devs said they're fine with shield gating because it incentivizes more active play. It's not changing and it's not going anywhere.
DE as usual uses a band-aid rather than fixing the game, and trust me if DE tries to fix this they will add more band-aid on it.
Also, nobody should put the words Warframe and balance in the same sentence.
I don't think that Warframe couldn't be balanced... but I don't think they care.
@@semtexagonthey don't it show in their actions.
I hate Shield-Gating too, if I am to play on SP the only thing I would do is Farming in Survival with my Ore Gaze Nekros, if not I either pick my immortal Mesa, Nezha or Rev, or just keep distance and kill fast looooool.
I'll concede that SG could use some adjustments but I'm not convinced by your argument. I think SG is one of the best things they've added to the game, different strokes and all that.
SG gang 4 lyfe yo
Probably not obvious to people who dont watch a ton of stuff like me, but the only video anyone needs to watch is the Brozime DE pablo interview. The problem always was he likes to balance by trial and error and then make changes when somehow they decide they need to make some standards. I.E. the Orphix ally heal changes and sentient buff, the armor strip and the ammo rework. I don't think theres a realistic chance to change this until there are some people with standards joining the devs,and make some changes before things become a problem. That is what I am trying to do with the tennovation Initiative, I will start with a Few video presentations and community contest. My only problems ever were organizing my time and growing up in poverty.
Very intresting indeed. Where can I learn more.
@@semtexagon tennovation Initiative will be a discord where tenno and DE can work together and discuss the important things that should be changed(why how when and who). And eventually we can figure out how to lift together and potentially work as interns or contractors. Its something I planned for Months but now Im close to launching it, IE plans are done Just gotta make it. Also the video on how gun skins work gotta get finished first.
@@Hughjundys yeah I have many practical solutions how to make the core of the game more easier to use and understand just need to process them into a presentable form. I think that is one of the areas the current devs even tho they are trying they just dont have the explanation talent/ dedication to do any better than nightwave and several quest intros.
I fully disagree. Shield gating is not free invulnerability as you saod it was. It is a complocated emchanic that deepens solo play while diversifying warframes.
Before shiekd gating only 4 warframes really were meta and build diversity was 0. Shield gating is: Resource based - energy, targets for abilities or having an ability that can restore full shield amount.
Shield gating adds difficulty - before either you tanked, or didn't, and tanking was an almost passive process, shield gating is an active playstyle that requires skill and timing.
Shiled gating has a weakness: Many things actually coubter shield gating unlike hp tanking - toxin and gas using enemies, some eximuses, nullifiers, magnetic procs.
Those things are a minor annoyance for inaros but a death sentence to a mag.
Synergy: Synergies now no longer need to strive for survival, as supporting in warframe ia mpre unique instea dof just sustaining resources.
Now enemy CC, enemy defense strip, priming, ally buffing, I frames and energy sustain are meta support playstyle. Synergy comps still thrive. Radial disarm, speedva and khora nekros farms are one example
Character design: No characters have a choice in theit tanking form - Shield gating, as someone who uses it and defends it, its an active playstyle, and some people dont want to keep the mental load of keeping the active survival while conventional hp tanking is viable
Shield gating is an option and a way for squishy caster frames to not be bad corner huggers.
So, i have a question about the golden 90% DR and why you make it seem like no one can get it.
Health Conversion + Guardian is 88% DR and u only need another 450 armor to reach 90%. So why is Guardian + Health Conversion + adaptation + voruna or Citrine subsume not a viable way to hit 90%? That is 2 mods(health convert and adapt) 1 arcane(guardian) 1 arcane/mod(blessing or vitality) and a subsume.
Still 5 requirements, it brings it more inline with shield gating's 3-4 slot requirements
I am not saying that you need 90 DR to health thank. I am saying that you need 90% DR that cannot be reduced + armor + adaption.
"But muh level cap! But muh pro end game solo 4d chess 8b nuke XD triple strata!"
Hang all level capers and "pro yootoobers" on orokin lamp posts. If you want your level cap endurance run - you'll do it without shieldgate in a squad, relying on synergy and teamwork and not on broken shit strats. Or challenge yourself - challenge for something beyond spamming brief respite on your road to one shot magus lockdowned unmoving and unresponsive target.
A long time ago, before shieldgate, before operators, T4 tower required a team to do high level long endurance runs. But you could challenge yourself and do it solo. And it was a challenge both in your damage output and your survivability. It was a challenge, it was rewarding and it meant something. Now game is weightless, homogenized and meaningless. Every build is same, every set is same (few exeption here and there). Everything is either god-like broken or unviable past certain point. Big numbers go bigger, everything dies and everybody happy and enjoying "power fantasy". But it's shit fantasy with empty feeling of playing Simaris' Simulacrum.
Bad rewards, bad balance - that's DE fault. But optimizing fun out of game - that's on community. So, yeah, I agree - Reject shielgate, Return to monke. Oh, and change weapons from hit-scans to projectile based while we at it.
🤓
Removing Shield gating will destroy level cap players. But, you have a great point