My pick? Superstar Billy Graham. He had already pitched a baby face turn as champion to Vince Sr, and claimed the only reason it didn’t happen was that Backlund already had been promised to be the next “good guy” champion, and Vince didn’t want to go back on his word. Only drawback is Graham’s age, but he still had a ton to give in the early 80s, not to mention immense drawing power.
I agree with you 100% on Tito Santana. I've said it for years had Vern Gagne put the AWA Title on Hogan, Tito would've been a perfect fit as Champion from 84-88. Tito had the look, the work ethic and would fit as the ethnic hero champion (Mexico) just like Pedro Morales (Puerto Rico) and Bruno Sammartino (Italian).
@@ericthomas917 Understand your point, but you have to remember the WWF was regional (Northeast) & the territories still existed. Under Vince Sr. It would've worked.
I think Senior goes with Santana. Another choice could be turning Don Muraco face, and I think he would've been a great World Champion. Eventually, Randy Savage does come in and becomes THE guy. The Poffo's outlaw ICW closed in 83/84, then Savage worked Memphis-proper and proved that he would "do business". As for Hogan, his career ends up resembling Stan Hansen's.
Randy(and Lanny) got in the wwf cause of Jimmy Hart's recommendation. If Vince Jr hadn't went national Jimmy Hart probably would've never worked in the wwf and the recommendation wouldn't have been made. Plus Randy was an outlaw wrestler and they usually didn't make it to the bigger territories back then, especially not in a top spot
Sergeant Slaughter. He was returning from JCP in early 83 regardless of which Vince was there. With no Hogan, just turn him a couple months early to feud with new champion Sheik, and have their legendary war now be for the title. Hasbro came after Sarge as a second fiddle, so they'll certainly still be after him as champion. VJM doesn't resist like his son did, and embraces the partnership and GI Joe branding, gaining huge national spotlight for the WWF "territory". It would end up going national anyway, just in a different way.
Hate to say it, probably Snuka. Santana was the workhorse but Snuka was drawing the tickets, especially against Muraco. If Hogan never jumped from the AWA, probably the Superfly replaces Backlund
No. I think VJM would've reacted a lot more differently to what happened in Allentown, Pennsylvania involving Snuka and murdering his girlfriend than VKM did in the real timeline. Snuka would've rightfully had to do prison time in the 80's-mid 90's if convicted, instead of VKM "moving mountains ($$$)" to keep Snuka out of jail in the real timeline.
@@aminurrrr0621 That's a good point. Maybe Sheik dethrones Backlund and Sgt Slaughter becomes the American hero champion. Without VKM to cry about his GI Joe royalties, maybe Slaughter becomes the face of WWF
This definitely was an interesting question. I need to see if you have any other potential What if? videos because its fun to think about what could be.
Don Muraco. He was an amateur Hawaii state champion and Bob Backlund would only lose to real wrestler. Also he was great in the ring and a great heal. He would of as a heal had many fans cheering for him much like Superstar Billy Graham did during his title run. Finally he had great feuds with Rocky Johnson and Tito Santana the ethnic baby faces he could have dropped the title to when Vince Sr panics when he hears fans cheering for a bad guy.
Vince Sr. had no problem with his wrestlers wrestling in other promotions. Jesse Ventura, Jay Strongbow, Ivan Putski and others worked in other territories before 1984. Let's not forget Andre The Giant...he wrestled all over the country.
If I remember correctly, he would even broker deals on behalf of his wrestlers. Under his philosophy, the Forbidden Door wouldn't have been a thing, considering the door would have been wide open.
Jessie was an AWA guy and the other guys were older. Andre had an agreement with daddy Vince who handled Andre’s bookings, truth be told VJM would probably had his top star similar to andre
For some unusual reason, if Hogan weren't the guy or was bigger attraction in another territory or Japan. I'm almost inclined to say that it would have been someone who is not an immediate or known star, and had some decent working ability, but a certain look and above average charisma with mic skills. Not necessarily a specific ethnicity, but it would work with the right character or wrestler. More than likely it would've been a new face or a younger guy. I say this, because most of the stars growing big were younger guys or definitely only in their early 30s...I'm thinking Savage, Magnum TA, Piper, Steamboat, the Von Erichs, the Harts, and later ...Sting, Lex, The Undertaker, Austin (SCSA), Rude, the Outsiders, and Cactus Jack. But, not having Vince Jr in the picture, the landscape of wrestling looks completely different. I don't know how different, but I still feel like the spot would've went to a wrestler ...strangely enough emerge as a superstar talent. In sort of Hogan-like mode, or more akin to a SCSA or Rock type of personality wrestler who was also a very good worker, as they were.
Great video Dav, i wonder if Ken Patera would have ever got a run with the title., (maybe just as a transitional heel champion to set up the next babyface champion)plus i think Vince junior would have just kept trying to convince his dad to invest in his new football league
I like the video. I have a question for you: What if Vince McMahon Jr decides to follow in his father's footsteps and works with all of the regional promotions and not compete against them?
Rowdy Roddy Piper. Could definitely have been the top guy, arguably had just as much charisma as Hogan, and probably would have been more relatable to the average fan, if he went that route.
Now I’m curious how Vince Sr would handle the other eras. Would the screw job ever have happened? Would he have kept Bret but fired Shawn? Would he feud with Stone cold?
This is like the alternative history thing of "What happens if you put Bonaparte in America", if you change one thing, and ensure a series of a events don't happen. So without Hulk Hogan, or Vince Mcmahon. You probably don't have the steroid trail, and thus no New Generation, and so on so forth.
Vince Sr. died in 1984 at the age of 69. He would have been 80 in 1994, so even if he lived longer, it is unlikely that he would have been at the helm beyond the 80's golden age.
I always heard Vince Sr. was going to go w/both Rocky Johnson and Superfly Jimmy Snuka as World Champions to rep the 80's before Vince Jr buys in. He was also fond of Ric Flair which is interesting as to what those plans would be.
Snuka made sense, he was the #1 babyface in the territory in 1983, MORE THAN BACKLUND who was the champ. That feud between him and Muraco for the IC title was excellent.
considering Tito almost became WWE Champion in 92 and WWE is still trying to find THE latin star, i buy it. but i do wonder how Backlund title reign would end
one of the other things with andre was, senior tended to use andre from time to time in order to bring in challengers for bruno, pedro, and backlund, so he'd probably just keep andre in that role and make more money as a result (should also note that at the point senior sold to junior, senior was looking to book andre in such a way that'd he get every 4th week or so off to stay at his ranch in north carolina. at least, that's what the sports illustrated article written about andre from the time claimed). if senior changes his mind about backlund being his guy, i'd have gone with billy graham as at least one other poster suggested (not sure if i would if this situation is after he dropped the belt to backlund, as billy pretty much went into a major funk shortly thereafter and turning to him a year or 2 later would have been a disaster).
I remember listening to a Tito Santana shoot interview a few years back. Tito had mentioned having a very good relationship with Vince Sr. to the point where he would keep him updated on his progress when he was with the AWA and GCW.
Out of curiosity, something I also brought up in the stream, but what are the chances Vince Sr gets his own locker room poached as a result of changing attitudes? P.S. I bumped up to the $15 tier
It's really hard to say I think. It's still possible that Hogan himself comes back after being frustrated with Verne and given the reigns, although he doesn't really fit the traditional Vince Sr mold as champ (other than Billy Graham). But also I'll answer as if Vince Sr. won't raid the AWA or NWA territories to find his next champ. I think in that case it's one of 3 guys 1. Sgt Slaughter as I believe he was back from Crockett by then and was getting hot. 2. Jimmy Snuka was over like rover and you could argue should have already been champion by then based on work. Although seems like a headcase in real life ("alleged" murder around that time, alleged cocaine abuser, etc). 3. Bob Backlund. No Hogan? No Vince Jr? Who's to say there is a title switch. We know Backlund was Vince Sr. guy and perhaps that doesn't change and Backlund remains champ at least for a few years. I actually think this is the most likely of the 3 (he just sticks with Backlund for awhile longer) Outside chance of maybe Don Muraco as the 4th... Now we could also speculate who he may have brought in. I believe most of the other viable options Vince Jr brought in like Orndorff, Savage, Santana, Dibiase, Hogan, Piper, Steamboat, etc. But would Sr bring them in? Who knows. OR maybe Sr brings in guys like Dusty, Flair, Von Erichs, Zbysko sticks around, or Lawler or Martel who were also big territory stars. Perhaps an outside dark horse from a wrestling family like Bret Hart who was already having great matches in Stampede and kind of fit that Backlund mold as champ. My gut sort of thinks that Dusty Rhodes may have been brought in at some point around that time to be the WWWF champ to take the reigns from Backlund in a Vince Sr world.
I did think about Backlund, but with the retconned title changes they had, it shows that there were already signs that they were ready to move the belt off of Backlund already
I feel like Sr. would've keep the belt going to new waistlines not just going back to hogan every five minutes, maybe have Savage have a better run with it and maybe have had Roddy Piper have a shot
Here's why i disagree on Savage. Without VKM buying the company from his dying dad, Jimmy Hart never leaves the AWA (he was the one responsible for Macho Man coming up north). Without Jimmy Hart, Savage continues to toil in the territories unnoticed throughout the 1980's. And i think two things would've happened to him in the early to mid 90's: Either he finally lands in WCW or some infant upstart company from Philadelphia called, i think, ECW. OR, I think he would've went crazy and did what Snuka or Benoit did 😢
That right there tells me that VKM at least had knowledge of the skater strikes that plagued the original Roller Derby in the summers of '72 & '73, which was one of the deciding factors leading owner Jerry Seltzer to close the company in December, 1973 meaning the prospect of wrestler unionization would terrify not only him, but also owners of any competing promotions as well......
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Yeah. Whatever Shane would have done would have been much better than bringing back Gargano. And Lumis. And giving Ciampa a chance to shine. And with the 3 of them on the same brand with Theory they could either reform The Way or DIY. Sure, not everything Trips has done has been great. He brought back Kross, which, I still resent from his time in NXT. And he got rid of Trent Seven. At least Tyler Bate came over. Hopefully he beats the Big Bad Booty Nephew and sends him to the main roster. Also, there's still the chance he brings back Seven when NXT:Europe starts up. Glad he didn't just pull a Vince and have him debut with Bate like they're buddies and nothing was just happening on another brand. Personally, I would have had Seamus and the other one in a tag title match, where Butch tries to help, it backfires, they lose, they turn on him after the match, 2 on 1 beatdown, Seven comes out to make the save. Reunite two thirds of British Strongstyle, then give Pete Dunn his name back and have him challenge WALTER at Clash at the Castle for the IC title. But, what do I know? Would have been much better to have Yaba Dabba Kato vs Commander Asneeze in a worked shoot fight in the third hour of Raw.
If you aren't looking for an Ethnic Babyface, Vince Sr. could've gone with Dusty Rhodes, who did wrestle in the WWWF/WWF from 1977-1982 off and on. Plus he was over as anything. The only problem, could Vince Sr. offer Dusty more money than Eddie Graham?
Outside the New York area?: I think Vince Sr. would've had a change of heart a little bit and looked at either Dusty Rhodes or someone with a lot of charisma not named Hogan. Maybe Jesse Ventura? Within house?: I think it would probably be Tony Atlas. I think the only reason VKM didn't go with Atlas is because he was already dead-set on Hulk Hogan.
I think a guy like Stan Hansen, who wrestled for WWF off and on at the time, could've made for a good All-American over the top babyface against the foreign heels, which was a popular archetype at the time.
If it were VJM, instead of VKM, looking after the WWWF (I know they changed it to WWF in 1979, but let's just hypothetically say that they went back to the triple W) and if Hulk Hogan never returns and stays in the AWA or goes to Japan (or even Mexico), what if in 1990 he NEVER gets to film Suburban Commando? (on the set, Hogan worked with and hit it off with a then-unknown fellow pro wrestler from WCW named Mark Calaway a.k.a. "Mean" Mark Callous) Imagine the WWE the last 34 years WITHOUT The Undertaker, the phenom, the Deadman, or the memorable feuds that he had? What if there was no WrestleMania streak? And even if there was, who would've had it and would it have been broken? And if so, by who?
Don Muraco. Snuka is out due to the Argentino situation, even if we don't know it on the outside -- they do, or else Snuka probably beats Muraco for the IC title in their feud. Hogan is out because Vince Sr. doesn't think he can work with him. Macho Man was Memphis or Memphis-outlaw at this point, right? Could Vince Sr. have felt Macho Man could've worked? Andre, probably not, if for one reason -- who do you eventually get the belt to after him, and HOW? Santana, though good, probably not good "enough".
If Vince Senior had stayed on then Bob Backlund would most likely have stayed as champion into the early Nineties. He wasn't that old or beat up and Senior loved him.
How about: Backlund stays champion until 1992 then loses to interim heel champion Curt Hennig then there is Bret Hart 1992-1999 then interim heel champion Stunning Steve then from 1999 nice guy ethnic champion smiling Rocky Maivia into the 2000s and up past 2010.
Why wouldn't Backlund just be kept as Vince Sr's top guy? Not to be too critical, but it's kinda weird how you didn't mention Bob (other than a passing reference)
A few names come to mind, Greg Valentine (who toured through that territory in the early 80s), a possible returning babyface turned Superstar Billy Graham, the former Intercontinental Champion Ted DiBiase or Paul Orndorff. Vince Sr did not poach but he traded wrestlers with other territories. it stands to reason that if the right offer, fixed money as opposed to pay per performance, which is the reason Paul Orndorff jumped from GCW to WWE in 1982. I'd probably go with Orndorff. Right look, good work on both sides of the coin, and willing to take the jump.
Well they did test Valentine with the title and they retconned it so he clearly they didn't want to go with him. And DiBiase never won the IC. Also if it happened in 1982, just remember who took over then
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Supposedly Dibiase was in the running for the NWA world title at some point, so with Vince Sr. I'd say it's possible Dibiase would have gotten a run with the WWF title (maybe not the most likely scenario but one of I think).
You know Dory Jr. would be a great choice if you were just talking a pure wrestler. I think the world of David Von Erich. If he had lived, what a choice that would have been.
Two I feel should be on this list would be Superstar Billy Graham or Jesse the body Ventura either one of these two I feel would of been good enough to be champion and the face of the company
I'm kind of surprised you stuck with the ethnic hero when you still have Bob Backlund and Sgt Slaughter on the payroll, either of whom could have led the company moving forward.
It just seems that's the most precedent of what Sr did. Plus Sarge was a heel and went to the NWA in the early 80s. Didn't seem all that likely. And this is factoring in that Backlund is champion and it's just looking to see who would be next
An interesting idea is what's a better finisher for certain wrestlers based off of gimmick or wrestling style and what old school finisher or move from another company
Hey. I liked El Matador as much as the next guy. And would have liked him to win more. Definitely would have liked him to have won more than he lost, hold the IC title again and be in the upper-midcard. But as the actual face of the company. No.
Vince Sr should have called an audible and turned Superstar Billy Graham face in 1978. That would have given Vince that champion he could ran hard with to big ticket draws like he had with Bruno.
Don Muraco, Tito Santana and later on Macho Man Randy Savage. Hogan ends up in Hollywood after Rocky 3.... Warrior would not be able to pull anything as VJM would of let him go for good the first time.
Had SR stayed the wwf would have continued along the path he choose as for top guy that is a tough one for me because I didn't get to see tito in his prime. The question would be who would he have to beat backlund because Bob passed it to shiek then to Hogan.
I think it goes to Sheik first regardless, they were already experiment with Backlund having unofficial title drops to the likes of Greg Valentine. I think they were ready to move on
I think there's a lot of documentation that Vince Sr was a HUGE Hogan guy too. I mean to be fair - like 80% of the territories were big Hogan guys. Except you know, Verne.
@@DaveKnowsWrestling like he viewed everyone not named Verne Gagne to be honest. Vince Sr also fired him for doing Rocky, not because he wasn't impressed with him. People kinda forget Hogan's AWA to WWF jump was actually his second. Vince Sr brought him in in the late 70s from Minnesota (Gagne's cited his as a reason they were hesitant to pull the trigger on Hogan - they thought he was in business for himself and already got into a big tiff with him over merchandising) and told him he was going to build around him. He pushed him right into a feud with Backlund and built to an MSG main event and everything in 1980. He also had Hogan in feuds with Andre. Big John Studd, etc. My view is - Hogan comes back and is that popular, I don't see anyway Sr doesn't push him. It was impossible at that point not to.
I was considering his reign as happening and I was more talking about who it would have been instead of Hogan. And also, I did mention him and mention the reasons why I don't think it would be him
@@DaveKnowsWrestling alright, well for the record, Backlund was still well in his prime in 1982, he was only 33 years old, certainly could’ve lasted a few more years on top…I’m sorry if I missed this in your video, but in this “what if” scenario, are we also assuming that Sr. doesn’t ever go national and that he also lives past 1984? Because it wouldn’t really be a relevant hypothetical if he still dies when he dies.
No you didn't miss it, I apologize, I made this vid quickly because I had a gig this week and I kind of missed parts we talked about in the livestream in the set up video forgetting that I didn't say it when recording. There was just things I thought I made clear but didn't. What I was trying to say, was that it's who would have been after Backlund and since 1980 to 82 was the last years under Senior it's the closest time to use to gauge what he had to work with. Not ignoring that the run at that time happened
I'm gonna be real here. I think you're way off point with the ethnic Jargon. No one really cared about ethnic heroes and it wasn't a promoter thing it was the wrestlers paying homage to their ethnicity. You're taking the standards of today and applying it to a past that really didn't put much stock in identity politics. That being said I think he would have stayed with Backlund. Wwf as we know it is entirely Jr's vision.
Well I could not disagree with you more. Bruno and Pedro were specifically chosen as ethnic hero babyface champions by VJM to appeal to the their demographics. It has nothing to do with modern standards at all. And I didn't specify it, but I meant after Backlund
My pick? Superstar Billy Graham. He had already pitched a baby face turn as champion to Vince Sr, and claimed the only reason it didn’t happen was that Backlund already had been promised to be the next “good guy” champion, and Vince didn’t want to go back on his word. Only drawback is Graham’s age, but he still had a ton to give in the early 80s, not to mention immense drawing power.
I agree with you 100% on Tito Santana. I've said it for years had Vern Gagne put the AWA Title on Hogan, Tito would've been a perfect fit as Champion from 84-88.
Tito had the look, the work ethic and would fit as the ethnic hero champion (Mexico) just like Pedro Morales (Puerto Rico) and Bruno Sammartino (Italian).
He would not have had the success Hogan had. As much as I love Tito he didn't have the look of a mainstream star like Hogan.
@@ericthomas917 Understand your point, but you have to remember the WWF was regional (Northeast) & the territories still existed. Under Vince Sr. It would've worked.
@@michaelmarino7391 And it's not like the idea wasn't tested out either. May have been a decade way too late, but Tito was the main guy for the AWF.
I second the idea of Tito Santana being a world champion, he really deserved it!!!!
@@ericthomas917 All about the booking my man. Tito facing monster heels and coming out on top...barely...would have had huge pops
I think Senior goes with Santana. Another choice could be turning Don Muraco face, and I think he would've been a great World Champion. Eventually, Randy Savage does come in and becomes THE guy. The Poffo's outlaw ICW closed in 83/84, then Savage worked Memphis-proper and proved that he would "do business". As for Hogan, his career ends up resembling Stan Hansen's.
Randy(and Lanny) got in the wwf cause of Jimmy Hart's recommendation. If Vince Jr hadn't went national Jimmy Hart probably would've never worked in the wwf and the recommendation wouldn't have been made.
Plus Randy was an outlaw wrestler and they usually didn't make it to the bigger territories back then, especially not in a top spot
I agree 👍 💯 percent. I am a 48 year old old guy that watched wwf on uhf with a a coat hanger antenna. . Yes! Sr. Would have done what u said!
@@ronmichaels9206 most outlaw wrestlers aren’t Randy Savage so his glass ceiling is still main eventing WrestleMania
You saying Hogan's career ends up like Hansen's makes me think of him wrestling Misawa and Kobashi in 90s AJPW and that's insane to me
Nah, Muraco was an average face but an amazing heel. I agree Savage would have been face under Vincent J.
Sergeant Slaughter. He was returning from JCP in early 83 regardless of which Vince was there. With no Hogan, just turn him a couple months early to feud with new champion Sheik, and have their legendary war now be for the title. Hasbro came after Sarge as a second fiddle, so they'll certainly still be after him as champion. VJM doesn't resist like his son did, and embraces the partnership and GI Joe branding, gaining huge national spotlight for the WWF "territory". It would end up going national anyway, just in a different way.
Those are some good points
ABSOLUTELY! SGT SLAUGHTER WAS SO FN OVER! IF NO HOGAN, DEFINITELY SLAUGHTER FOR THE FIRST 4 MANIAS.
Very solid points, idk about vjk letting hasbro in given he didn’t want hulk to do rocky
slaughter does make sense.
Hate to say it, probably Snuka. Santana was the workhorse but Snuka was drawing the tickets, especially against Muraco. If Hogan never jumped from the AWA, probably the Superfly replaces Backlund
No. I think VJM would've reacted a lot more differently to what happened in Allentown, Pennsylvania involving Snuka and murdering his girlfriend than VKM did in the real timeline.
Snuka would've rightfully had to do prison time in the 80's-mid 90's if convicted, instead of VKM "moving mountains ($$$)" to keep Snuka out of jail in the real timeline.
@@aminurrrr0621 That's a good point. Maybe Sheik dethrones Backlund and Sgt Slaughter becomes the American hero champion. Without VKM to cry about his GI Joe royalties, maybe Slaughter becomes the face of WWF
This definitely was an interesting question. I need to see if you have any other potential What if? videos because its fun to think about what could be.
I would've also added to the list, Ricky Steamboat and Rick Martel to the list as well. They were both in wwf around 1981 if I'm not wrong
Martel was AWA world champion. But he was kind of a boring babyface... So was Backlund. So you might be right about Vince Sr. going with him anyway.
I think Steamboat was still in Mid South around this time if I'm not mistaken.
Don Muraco. He was an amateur Hawaii state champion and Bob Backlund would only lose to real wrestler. Also he was great in the ring and a great heal. He would of as a heal had many fans cheering for him much like Superstar Billy Graham did during his title run. Finally he had great feuds with Rocky Johnson and Tito Santana the ethnic baby faces he could have dropped the title to when Vince Sr panics when he hears fans cheering for a bad guy.
Thank you for this stroll doen memory lane i miss this time in wrestling
Paul Orndorff Could have been a good choice
Yes!!!
Vince Sr. had no problem with his wrestlers wrestling in other promotions. Jesse Ventura, Jay Strongbow, Ivan Putski and others worked in other territories before 1984. Let's not forget Andre The Giant...he wrestled all over the country.
If I remember correctly, he would even broker deals on behalf of his wrestlers. Under his philosophy, the Forbidden Door wouldn't have been a thing, considering the door would have been wide open.
I didn't say he had a problem with that
Jessie was an AWA guy and the other guys were older. Andre had an agreement with daddy Vince who handled Andre’s bookings, truth be told VJM would probably had his top star similar to andre
Second video I've seen of yours. Subscribed and liked. Hope you get that silver play button friendo! Keep up the great work.
For some unusual reason, if Hogan weren't the guy or was bigger attraction in another territory or Japan. I'm almost inclined to say that it would have been someone who is not an immediate or known star, and had some decent working ability, but a certain look and above average charisma with mic skills. Not necessarily a specific ethnicity, but it would work with the right character or wrestler. More than likely it would've been a new face or a younger guy. I say this, because most of the stars growing big were younger guys or definitely only in their early 30s...I'm thinking Savage, Magnum TA, Piper, Steamboat, the Von Erichs, the Harts, and later ...Sting, Lex, The Undertaker, Austin (SCSA), Rude, the Outsiders, and Cactus Jack. But, not having Vince Jr in the picture, the landscape of wrestling looks completely different. I don't know how different, but I still feel like the spot would've went to a wrestler ...strangely enough emerge as a superstar talent. In sort of Hogan-like mode, or more akin to a SCSA or Rock type of personality wrestler who was also a very good worker, as they were.
What about a younger Dynamite Kid?
Great video Dav, i wonder if Ken Patera would have ever got a run with the title., (maybe just as a transitional heel champion to set up the next babyface champion)plus i think Vince junior would have just kept trying to convince his dad to invest in his new football league
I like the video. I have a question for you: What if Vince McMahon Jr decides to follow in his father's footsteps and works with all of the regional promotions and not compete against them?
That’s another video idea
Let's face it. GRAPEFRUITS Vince Mac would NEVER work with a territory, his DNA and ego is alpha, he is taking over no matter what
He worked with Memphis and ECW
Rowdy Roddy Piper. Could definitely have been the top guy, arguably had just as much charisma as Hogan, and probably would have been more relatable to the average fan, if he went that route.
I think Sgt Slaughter becomes the guy. Cool video tho
0:27 wow that sure sounds like fun, I’ll make sure to check it out 😉
Ted DiBiase. He was world champion material and Sr. liked him. He would have been a great baby face champ and has an Italian name.
Tito would have been great. So would Steamboat.
Now I’m curious how Vince Sr would handle the other eras. Would the screw job ever have happened? Would he have kept Bret but fired Shawn? Would he feud with Stone cold?
This is like the alternative history thing of "What happens if you put Bonaparte in America", if you change one thing, and ensure a series of a events don't happen. So without Hulk Hogan, or Vince Mcmahon. You probably don't have the steroid trail, and thus no New Generation, and so on so forth.
Many call Backlund's victory over Superstar Billy Graham in 1978 a "screwjob".
They never would of happened.
Vince Sr. died in 1984 at the age of 69. He would have been 80 in 1994, so even if he lived longer, it is unlikely that he would have been at the helm beyond the 80's golden age.
@ blkgardner It’s a hypothetical but if you wanna be like that then how about if Vince jr booked the matches like his father
I always heard Vince Sr. was going to go w/both Rocky Johnson and Superfly Jimmy Snuka as World Champions to rep the 80's before Vince Jr buys in. He was also fond of Ric Flair which is interesting as to what those plans would be.
Snuka made sense, he was the #1 babyface in the territory in 1983, MORE THAN BACKLUND who was the champ.
That feud between him and Muraco for the IC title was excellent.
considering Tito almost became WWE Champion in 92 and WWE is still trying to find THE latin star, i buy it. but i do wonder how Backlund title reign would end
one of the other things with andre was, senior tended to use andre from time to time in order to bring in challengers for bruno, pedro, and backlund, so he'd probably just keep andre in that role and make more money as a result (should also note that at the point senior sold to junior, senior was looking to book andre in such a way that'd he get every 4th week or so off to stay at his ranch in north carolina. at least, that's what the sports illustrated article written about andre from the time claimed).
if senior changes his mind about backlund being his guy, i'd have gone with billy graham as at least one other poster suggested (not sure if i would if this situation is after he dropped the belt to backlund, as billy pretty much went into a major funk shortly thereafter and turning to him a year or 2 later would have been a disaster).
oh, and made sure to subscribe, hope you get your play button by the end of 2023, if not sooner.
Amazing Video Dave. Would be interesting to see how Vince Senior would book Wrestlemania 1 in 1985.
I don’t think we would have gotten Wrestlemania.
No Mania as that was JR's creation.
I remember listening to a Tito Santana shoot interview a few years back. Tito had mentioned having a very good relationship with Vince Sr. to the point where he would keep him updated on his progress when he was with the AWA and GCW.
Santana was pushed hard pre-Hogan. He looked hungry going after Muraco.
Ted Dibiase
Out of curiosity, something I also brought up in the stream, but what are the chances Vince Sr gets his own locker room poached as a result of changing attitudes?
P.S. I bumped up to the $15 tier
That is a good question and THANK YOU! But I think that leads to a whole different what if video
the belt that Vern is hold at 2:52 looks like the same belt wwf used for the Andre belt
Snuka would have been great if it weren't for his drug and legal problems.
Snuka is another contender until.....he gets arrested for murder.
It's really hard to say I think. It's still possible that Hogan himself comes back after being frustrated with Verne and given the reigns, although he doesn't really fit the traditional Vince Sr mold as champ (other than Billy Graham).
But also I'll answer as if Vince Sr. won't raid the AWA or NWA territories to find his next champ.
I think in that case it's one of 3 guys
1. Sgt Slaughter as I believe he was back from Crockett by then and was getting hot.
2. Jimmy Snuka was over like rover and you could argue should have already been champion by then based on work. Although seems like a headcase in real life ("alleged" murder around that time, alleged cocaine abuser, etc).
3. Bob Backlund. No Hogan? No Vince Jr? Who's to say there is a title switch. We know Backlund was Vince Sr. guy and perhaps that doesn't change and Backlund remains champ at least for a few years. I actually think this is the most likely of the 3 (he just sticks with Backlund for awhile longer)
Outside chance of maybe Don Muraco as the 4th...
Now we could also speculate who he may have brought in.
I believe most of the other viable options Vince Jr brought in like Orndorff, Savage, Santana, Dibiase, Hogan, Piper, Steamboat, etc. But would Sr bring them in? Who knows. OR maybe Sr brings in guys like Dusty, Flair, Von Erichs, Zbysko sticks around, or Lawler or Martel who were also big territory stars. Perhaps an outside dark horse from a wrestling family like Bret Hart who was already having great matches in Stampede and kind of fit that Backlund mold as champ.
My gut sort of thinks that Dusty Rhodes may have been brought in at some point around that time to be the WWWF champ to take the reigns from Backlund in a Vince Sr world.
I did think about Backlund, but with the retconned title changes they had, it shows that there were already signs that they were ready to move the belt off of Backlund already
I thought it was a very interesting video. I guess Randy Savage would have been a good pick.
A question i never asked but needed
I feel like Sr. would've keep the belt going to new waistlines not just going back to hogan every five minutes, maybe have Savage have a better run with it and maybe have had Roddy Piper have a shot
Here's why i disagree on Savage. Without VKM buying the company from his dying dad, Jimmy Hart never leaves the AWA (he was the one responsible for Macho Man coming up north). Without Jimmy Hart, Savage continues to toil in the territories unnoticed throughout the 1980's. And i think two things would've happened to him in the early to mid 90's:
Either he finally lands in WCW or some infant upstart company from Philadelphia called, i think, ECW.
OR, I think he would've went crazy and did what Snuka or Benoit did 😢
Who would be his top guy in 2022?
Interesting. Good video. If you can do video on if what If Jesse Ventura succeed in unionzed Wrestling how would the business be today.
That right there tells me that VKM at least had knowledge of the skater strikes that plagued the original Roller Derby in the summers of '72 & '73, which was one of the deciding factors leading owner Jerry Seltzer to close the company in December, 1973 meaning the prospect of wrestler unionization would terrify not only him, but also owners of any competing promotions as well......
DAVE , I love your content. Your a true fan and you don't stir garbage up.
Hey thanks so much for saying so and glad to meet another like minded individual
@DaveKnowsWrestling my Japanese brother!! I hope 🙏 to visit Japan some day!! I love ❤️ your culture!
I think Vince Sr. goes with either The American Dream Dusty Rhodes and or Jerry The King Lawler.
I think it woulda been cool if they couldve brought in a star from japan like Tatsumi Fujinami.
Now that we did the past, what about the present? What if, instead of Trips (and Steph and Kahn) it was Shane that took over?
What if nothing, I just wish it happened
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Yeah. Whatever Shane would have done would have been much better than bringing back Gargano. And Lumis. And giving Ciampa a chance to shine. And with the 3 of them on the same brand with Theory they could either reform The Way or DIY.
Sure, not everything Trips has done has been great. He brought back Kross, which, I still resent from his time in NXT. And he got rid of Trent Seven. At least Tyler Bate came over. Hopefully he beats the Big Bad Booty Nephew and sends him to the main roster. Also, there's still the chance he brings back Seven when NXT:Europe starts up. Glad he didn't just pull a Vince and have him debut with Bate like they're buddies and nothing was just happening on another brand.
Personally, I would have had Seamus and the other one in a tag title match, where Butch tries to help, it backfires, they lose, they turn on him after the match, 2 on 1 beatdown, Seven comes out to make the save. Reunite two thirds of British Strongstyle, then give Pete Dunn his name back and have him challenge WALTER at Clash at the Castle for the IC title. But, what do I know?
Would have been much better to have Yaba Dabba Kato vs Commander Asneeze in a worked shoot fight in the third hour of Raw.
If you aren't looking for an Ethnic Babyface, Vince Sr. could've gone with Dusty Rhodes, who did wrestle in the WWWF/WWF from 1977-1982 off and on. Plus he was over as anything. The only problem, could Vince Sr. offer Dusty more money than Eddie Graham?
Vince Sr may have been set in his ways, but he wasn't stupid. I think he would've wised up to how cable was changing wrestling at that time.
Outside the New York area?: I think Vince Sr. would've had a change of heart a little bit and looked at either Dusty Rhodes or someone with a lot of charisma not named Hogan. Maybe Jesse Ventura?
Within house?: I think it would probably be Tony Atlas. I think the only reason VKM didn't go with Atlas is because he was already dead-set on Hulk Hogan.
Snuka or Slaughter for sure
I personally think Bret Hart could've been Bob's replacement. His technical skills would've impressed Vince Sr.
Piper was "ethnic". and people love heels.
I think Paul Orndorff would have been a solid pick
Tito is a good choice but Ricky Steamboat and Rick Martel fit the Vincent J. mold. Amazing workers who couldn't really cut promos
This was a great video and I found it pretty interesting. Also have to wonder would JCP try to expand nationally if Vince Sr stays in charge
I don't think they do, they never showed interest until they were forced to expand due to VKM
Larry Zybisko woulda been a natural heir to Bruno Sammartino
I think a guy like Stan Hansen, who wrestled for WWF off and on at the time, could've made for a good All-American over the top babyface against the foreign heels, which was a popular archetype at the time.
Excellent question
If it were VJM, instead of VKM, looking after the WWWF (I know they changed it to WWF in 1979, but let's just hypothetically say that they went back to the triple W) and if Hulk Hogan never returns and stays in the AWA or goes to Japan (or even Mexico), what if in 1990 he NEVER gets to film Suburban Commando? (on the set, Hogan worked with and hit it off with a then-unknown fellow pro wrestler from WCW named Mark Calaway a.k.a. "Mean" Mark Callous)
Imagine the WWE the last 34 years WITHOUT The Undertaker, the phenom, the Deadman, or the memorable feuds that he had?
What if there was no WrestleMania streak? And even if there was, who would've had it and would it have been broken? And if so, by who?
Most likely at this time period Sr. Would of likely went with Sgt Slaughter
Don Muraco.
Snuka is out due to the Argentino situation, even if we don't know it on the outside -- they do, or else Snuka probably beats Muraco for the IC title in their feud.
Hogan is out because Vince Sr. doesn't think he can work with him.
Macho Man was Memphis or Memphis-outlaw at this point, right? Could Vince Sr. have felt Macho Man could've worked?
Andre, probably not, if for one reason -- who do you eventually get the belt to after him, and HOW?
Santana, though good, probably not good "enough".
If Vince Senior had stayed on then Bob Backlund would most likely have stayed as champion into the early Nineties. He wasn't that old or beat up and Senior loved him.
How about:
Backlund stays champion until 1992 then loses to interim heel champion Curt Hennig then there is Bret Hart 1992-1999 then interim heel champion Stunning Steve then from 1999 nice guy ethnic champion smiling Rocky Maivia into the 2000s and up past 2010.
I think Great Gama, Andre the Giant, Verne Gange, Antonia Ioki, Bruno Sammartino, or Tito Santana would've been top guy possibly Curt Hennig
That Andre argument is the exact same that could, and should have been applied to The Fiend.
I’ve got an idea what about Bob Bucklund state champion for another few years
I just don't think it would have since they were already testing taking the strap off of him with retconned wins
JYD, Ricky Steamboat
He could have tried to poach the nature boy Rick flair !
As I pointed out in the video, that doesn't seem likely for all the reasons I named
Why wouldn't Backlund just be kept as Vince Sr's top guy? Not to be too critical, but it's kinda weird how you didn't mention Bob (other than a passing reference)
He probably would have but then again Backlund wasn't drawing as champion
Well during that time period Bob was already the guy, I was thinking who would be next after he drops the strap
It would have been Andre the Giant as top guy probably followed by one of the wrestling dynasties like heart
A few names come to mind, Greg Valentine (who toured through that territory in the early 80s), a possible returning babyface turned Superstar Billy Graham, the former Intercontinental Champion Ted DiBiase or Paul Orndorff.
Vince Sr did not poach but he traded wrestlers with other territories. it stands to reason that if the right offer, fixed money as opposed to pay per performance, which is the reason Paul Orndorff jumped from GCW to WWE in 1982.
I'd probably go with Orndorff. Right look, good work on both sides of the coin, and willing to take the jump.
Well they did test Valentine with the title and they retconned it so he clearly they didn't want to go with him. And DiBiase never won the IC. Also if it happened in 1982, just remember who took over then
@@DaveKnowsWrestling sorry about that. He won the short lived WWWF North American title in 1979. Stands to reason he, too, was tested for it.
He was tested for the IC title and Pat Paterson ended up winning. DiBiase doesn't seem like a likely candidate with that in mind either
@@DaveKnowsWrestling Supposedly Dibiase was in the running for the NWA world title at some point, so with Vince Sr. I'd say it's possible Dibiase would have gotten a run with the WWF title (maybe not the most likely scenario but one of I think).
Any thoughts on Don Muraco?
You know Dory Jr. would be a great choice if you were just talking a pure wrestler. I think the world of David Von Erich. If he had lived, what a choice that would have been.
Two I feel should be on this list would be Superstar Billy Graham or Jesse the body Ventura either one of these two I feel would of been good enough to be champion and the face of the company
I'm kind of surprised you stuck with the ethnic hero when you still have Bob Backlund and Sgt Slaughter on the payroll, either of whom could have led the company moving forward.
It just seems that's the most precedent of what Sr did. Plus Sarge was a heel and went to the NWA in the early 80s. Didn't seem all that likely. And this is factoring in that Backlund is champion and it's just looking to see who would be next
An interesting idea is what's a better finisher for certain wrestlers based off of gimmick or wrestling style and what old school finisher or move from another company
Hey. I liked El Matador as much as the next guy. And would have liked him to win more. Definitely would have liked him to have won more than he lost, hold the IC title again and be in the upper-midcard. But as the actual face of the company. No.
Vince Sr should have called an audible and turned Superstar Billy Graham face in 1978. That would have given Vince that champion he could ran hard with to big ticket draws like he had with Bruno.
Vince Sr. could have also brought back Bruno for one final run, if he would kindly grease up his wheels.
Kerry Avon Erich, maybe?
Dusty or Flair
I think Sr. Would've still went with hogan
Agreed
What if Roderick McMahon(Vince's grandfather) was in charge ?
What about Paul Orndolph?
Dusty Rhodes I think. Vince senior did had a talent exchange with Florida. The Dusty probably never had that fued with Ole Anderson.
Don Muraco, Tito Santana and later on Macho Man Randy Savage. Hogan ends up in Hollywood after Rocky 3....
Warrior would not be able to pull anything as VJM would of let him go for good the first time.
Sgt Slaughter ALL THE WAY! SUPER OVER !
Who is vjm ?
Vincent J McMahon
Had SR stayed the wwf would have continued along the path he choose as for top guy that is a tough one for me because I didn't get to see tito in his prime. The question would be who would he have to beat backlund because Bob passed it to shiek then to Hogan.
I think it goes to Sheik first regardless, they were already experiment with Backlund having unofficial title drops to the likes of Greg Valentine. I think they were ready to move on
They had Putski sing polish songs. I would rather listen to Lassie bark than Putski sing.
ron simmons was first black world champ dude
I was clearly talking about in WWF. If we were going outside of the company then the real answer is Bearcat Wright
Don muraco. Vince sr also liked juicers. Rock was fucking massive. He would have been perfect for senior’s no.1 star.
Iron Mike Sharpe! He wrestled for years with an arm injury ! Like a champion!
You think him being injured is more of a reason to build a company around him?
@@DaveKnowsWrestling I was being silly...
Tito would've been champ if it wasn't for Hogan coming in
Bob Backlund or someone ethnic
I think there's a lot of documentation that Vince Sr was a HUGE Hogan guy too. I mean to be fair - like 80% of the territories were big Hogan guys. Except you know, Verne.
Sr fired him
@@DaveKnowsWrestling I hear ya but I dunno if any promoter is looking at Hogan the same way in say - 83-84 that they were looking at him in 81.
Well how did Verne view him?
@@DaveKnowsWrestling like he viewed everyone not named Verne Gagne to be honest. Vince Sr also fired him for doing Rocky, not because he wasn't impressed with him. People kinda forget Hogan's AWA to WWF jump was actually his second. Vince Sr brought him in in the late 70s from Minnesota (Gagne's cited his as a reason they were hesitant to pull the trigger on Hogan - they thought he was in business for himself and already got into a big tiff with him over merchandising) and told him he was going to build around him. He pushed him right into a feud with Backlund and built to an MSG main event and everything in 1980. He also had Hogan in feuds with Andre. Big John Studd, etc.
My view is - Hogan comes back and is that popular, I don't see anyway Sr doesn't push him. It was impossible at that point not to.
In the same statement, you say Gagne was hesitant on Hogan and also say that it was impossible for any booker not to push him.
Why not even make mention of Bob Backlund, who literally WAS Sr.'s top guy when Jr. bought the company?
I was considering his reign as happening and I was more talking about who it would have been instead of Hogan. And also, I did mention him and mention the reasons why I don't think it would be him
@@DaveKnowsWrestling alright, well for the record, Backlund was still well in his prime in 1982, he was only 33 years old, certainly could’ve lasted a few more years on top…I’m sorry if I missed this in your video, but in this “what if” scenario, are we also assuming that Sr. doesn’t ever go national and that he also lives past 1984? Because it wouldn’t really be a relevant hypothetical if he still dies when he dies.
No you didn't miss it, I apologize, I made this vid quickly because I had a gig this week and I kind of missed parts we talked about in the livestream in the set up video forgetting that I didn't say it when recording. There was just things I thought I made clear but didn't. What I was trying to say, was that it's who would have been after Backlund and since 1980 to 82 was the last years under Senior it's the closest time to use to gauge what he had to work with. Not ignoring that the run at that time happened
I'm gonna be real here. I think you're way off point with the ethnic Jargon. No one really cared about ethnic heroes and it wasn't a promoter thing it was the wrestlers paying homage to their ethnicity. You're taking the standards of today and applying it to a past that really didn't put much stock in identity politics.
That being said I think he would have stayed with Backlund. Wwf as we know it is entirely Jr's vision.
Well I could not disagree with you more. Bruno and Pedro were specifically chosen as ethnic hero babyface champions by VJM to appeal to the their demographics. It has nothing to do with modern standards at all.
And I didn't specify it, but I meant after Backlund
As much as I love MartyD122 I am shocked he hit 100,000 before you and I look forward to you reaching that Milestone
Well hope words spreads and thanks for being a part of the journey
Tito Santana is great of you love bland, generic, boring wrestlers
Have be hulk Hogan he make wrestling what is today
He would’ve stuck with Backlund
He had no charisma, no mic skills and he looked like my next door neighbor.