Conclusion: the Union army was not going to be routed or moved off superior defensive positions with ample men & supplies. The true “what if victory” scenario was the first days battle. Had the Confederate forces been better concentrated for the first days battle, that was their shot. It was was just bad after bad on day 2 & 3.
That's my takeaway as well. By the start of the second day, absent of dramatically worse decisions than were made historically, the unions strategically stronger position of fighting from interior lines was too great of an advantage.
I agree. The confederates will lose this game almost every time unless they can take all the defensive positions on the first day, and force the Union to attack them.
The only way the Confederates we’re going to win in the east was that on Day 1 Lee retreated the whole army and fought engagements against the Union corps while they were split up. Problem with the above is, by 1863 the Union had learned the lesson of what happens when the confederates isolate corps alone so we’re very much going to remain in close formation so isolating and destroying the eastern army was essentially always going to be a pitch battle and by this time the confederates didn’t have the staying power in the field to fight a major pitch battle.
That's absolutely untrue. These dice rolling games don't prove anything because it's 100% luck of the dice. If Hoods Division had stormed into the Federal rear and then destroyed 5th Corp, the entire Federal army would have folded like a cheap house of cards. Word of 5th corps defeat would have flowed through the Union army, and the men would lose heart. They didn't even bring up the fact that the entire Federal supply train was in the exact area that Hoods men marched through. The Union army would have been cut off from their supplies completely.
@@ivanenfinger9331 although technically you are correct in that the Union side might roll fifty consecutive ‘6’s on the dice and the Confederate side might roll fifty consecutive ‘1’s on the dice, we all know that doesn’t really happen. I’ve played Gettysburg a dozen or so times using various hex board games and miniature wargame rules over the years and I’ve never seen the confederates win. If the confederates do break through anywhere, the Union uses its superiority in numbers and internal lines to smash whatever has broken through.
It wouldn't have happened. Meade found out about it and ordered Sickles to return to his original position. The only reason it didn't happen in real life was because Hood engaged him and forced him to stay and fight. But if Hood is moving around the flank, Sickles has time to reform.
You forget that Hood's movement didn't put Sickles in jeoprody. If you look at the game board Sickles is too far forward but part of Hood's division split in reality to attack Sickles and lost some of it's strength for attacking Little Round Top. In this scenario Sickles is not pressured due to part of Hood's division not being there at all.
@@AnExtrovertPaints it would still have happened Hood didn't ask to move around until after sickles had moved forward and he wouldn't have been able to redeploy if he had Longstreet in his front launching Mclaws attack without Buford cavalry had no way of knowing if Longstreet had just Mclaws or his whole corp Mclaws, Hood and Pickett. The biggest mistake was to have Pickett guarding the supply trains instead of cavalry. Pickett couldn't take Cemetery ridge on July 3rd but he could have made a significant difference on July 2nd.
Great video and great simulation, this was probably why Longstreet refused Hoods request, he realized that even if Hood succeeded it would still be impossible to re enforce him to capitalize on a breakthrough. Big thanks and greetings from a Buff from Stockholm Sweden
Longstreet refused because Lee and Longstreet didn't know where John Sedgewick's 6th corp was. At 4:30pm on July 2nd, Sedgewick was ro the left of the 20th Maine and fully in position to repel an attempt by the right end of the confederate line.
I played this games years ago on one of those old turn based systems with cardboard hexagons. It was with a group of like minded friends when I was at the Pentagon. It took about six months...lol. I played Lee. We had an independent "God" person running the game. I had three Corps commanders who could only see what was in front of them and report to me their intelligence. The union was the same. Now, a wrinkle. on the second night my corps under Hill was augmented by 2 divisions that I ordered from the Suffolk, VA deployment. It was a huge strategic risk for me to take, but worth it in my judgment, and playing Lee, I took it. After moving Hood around the Federals left flank, and feinting to the union right on Culp's Hill with Early, and moving Col Jenkins cav around to close a retreat over a bridge, (forget the name) behind Culp's Hill, Hill's augmented corps drove right up the gut, directly into the center of the union line and it broke. The union left routed, and the union right was encircled. Hoorah for the Bonnie Blue Flag! lol
Would have loved to play a strategy game with guys, oh and gals, from the Pentagon. I agree Lee could have won. Not easy to do but it could have happened.
Interesting series of videos. I just find the entire detachment of Hood's division to swing around as far as it did to be kind of suspect to begin with. There was no way of knowing what was behind that ridge and you had Hood's entire division off by its lonesome with no support in sight if things went bad for them. If the Confederate players didn't have the foreknowledge that the Union army was also not fully assembled that day, would they have taken such an enormous gamble that risked the total loss of Hood's division if there were strong Union forces behind the Round Tops that Lee and his generals could not have known were or were not there.
If I recall that was Lee's response when Longstreet kept asking it at one point. With Stuart off doing that glamorous crap Lee had no way of knowing what was really out there with his limited cav on hand. Was just scouts reporting and those could be reliable...or not at all.
These gambits are good bets in a table top game with a god's eye view of the situation. Hood has to move an entire division through unfamiliar roads and terrain, without getting detected. That is slow work, and he has be willing to err southwards where he is less likely to be detected. He could easily spend 3 hours in the wilderness and not be ready to attack. After three hours of sitting on his hands with uncertain information about Hood's status, how does Longstreet coordinate the rest of his corps? What does he tell Lee regarding what the rest of the ANV should do?
As you said, the Confederates had no idea what was behind the Union line. Additionally, Hood's movement around to the right would have left a division- sized gap between Hood and McLaws- and moving McLaws to maintain a connection with Hood would have left the same gap between McLaws and Hill's corps. Leaving a gap in one's line was an invitation to disaster (as Chickamauga illustrated all to well) and isn't something that commanding generals do. It's not realistic to expect Longstreet to have done it on his own initiative or for Lee to have authorized it- because doing so would have necessitated a shift by the entire AoNV to maintain a relatively unbroken line.
Not bad with the attack happening so late in the day. Personally I think the game should be started at 6 or 7 am at the council of war Lee had that morning. If you look at the numbers 3 federal Corps 2nd 3rd and 5th on that flank with 6th in reserve, impossible for 2 divisions of 15,000 total to win. However if Lee would have made use of the rest of his fresh troops it could have made a huge difference. On the morning of July 2nd Lee had 4 divisions of fresh troops, 2 divisions pretty much intact, and 2 divisions smashed up, with 1 division not yet on the field, Picket. Not counting 2 brigades of cavalry. I saw a comment about Wright's brigade not being supported. Well that would have been difficult due to the decimated state of command in both Pender's and Heth's divisions. The only way this attack would have succeeded would have been with concentrated mass at several critical points. First Little round top, second Sickles left flank, and lastly the gap between 3rd and 2nd corps. 4 fresh divisions, Hood, McLaws, Anderson, Johnson, supported by Early's and Pender under Pettigrew. With Heth under Trimble and Rhodes making themselves seen so few troops could be dispatched from the federal center and far right. I love that the Civil War still has such a hold over us. 160 years later we are still saying what if. War is horrible. However wargaming is so much fun. And don't get me started about that morale system you used in the game. Confederate 2nd and 3rd corps gets 0 and 1st and 11th corps gets 3??? Must be Lincoln who wrote the rule book.
Lol, really enjoyed your comment! Tend to agree on the morale, though tough to find a way to balance wargaming to the real-life ups and downs of battle.
Lee's poor staff work made an attack at dawn an impossibility. Longstreet had to counter march his corps because the roads he was directed to use made them observed from Little Round top. This is somewhat glossed over in the earlier video, which is why they began at 1pm. It's also why it is mentioned to them that 'you've made one counter march already, do you want to make another one'.
@@HunterhrThat, and the fact that Longstreet was dragging his feet since he thought the maneuver was doomed from the start. But this is why I’m struggling with the assertion that Hood could have made the long march within the daylight allotted.
Apparently, the Confederate players do not understand the concept of an attack en echelon, which is what Lee attempted on Day 2. So, the attack should have initiated with Hood's advance, and once Hood was in contact, McLaws would move out. Hill's Corps should not have attacked until Meade stripped his center to counter Hood and McLaws, and then Ewell should not have moved forward until Meade began moving troops off of Culp's and Cemetery Hill to fill the gap in the center created by moving Hancock to the left. In the real battle, the Confederate attack on 2 July failed because the echelon attack broke down when nobody moved forward to support Wright's Georgia brigade. This allowed Meade to move elements of I Corps around to fill his denuded center. If the attack had continued, Meade would have found himself without any reserves to counter Ewell when he finally unleashed his attack on Cemetery Hill.
You’re forgetting about the newly arrived VI Corps. The attack on July 2nd was never going to succeed. Greene held Culp’s Hill while grossly outnumbered. Cemetery and Culp’s Hill were far too strong of positions.
After hearing many theories, I think Lee should have pulled 8 miles back to Cashtown where the terrain better favored defense with a mountain pass in the rear and let Meade attack him there. If Meade turned south Lee could fall on his rear. I believe Longstreet suggested this.
@@nicholasmuro1742 Lincoln and the whole government was desperate for a win. Lee won Fredericksburg in December '62 and Chancellorsville in spring '63. The north was desperate for a win. All of this made Lee overconfident at Gettysburg.
Ultimately the lack of Stuarts cavalry condemned Lee's army to fight an unplannned battle and become committed to battle while over extended. A partial success on day one was insufficient reward for essentially losing the war on day 3.
Get yourself a copy of Ultimate General: Civil War. It's a beaut. All the major battles with the historical battlefield, units and dispositions. A few custom (make your own force) battles and a campaign running through the entire war as either side (major and minor battles) to run army organisation etc as you see fit. Quite possibly the most hours (well over a thousand) I've played in any game in 30+ years of gaming, and I'm a big Total War fan and quite picky to boot.
Good game! The only way I think this works is if Hoods boys go sharp left and support that attack into Sickles. They need one big break through there to win. I don't know any other way to have a fighting chance
@@jackcoleman5955in which case he's at risk of the unions 5th corps engaging him on the flank while making that movement. And it would require good coordination between Mclaw and Hood, which was difficult since they were separated so far from each other
1) I'm not sure your war game allows significance geography played in the battle, or the inherent advantage of defending a position. 2) I'm not sure Hood intended to smash the Union Army on the second day of the battle. Rather he may have intended merely to capture high ground on the Union flank allowing the Confederate army to continue their flanking attack from a stronger position on the third day.
You guys had me so excited about this ... I've never seen an army so poorly fought in my life. I had to stop it at @16:44 and just yell at my screen. ... Best quote of the game @12:05 " That's gonna leave a mark"
Interesting that you would allow the General Hood players see all of the Union Army arrayed. It gives him an advantage in his security planning on the move and during the attack.
@@NefariousKoel You can't march an entire division that far undetected. Add to that the lead regiment is scouting as they go, and they've got no cavalry screen. It would have taken them until very late afternoon to get there.
Loved the first video and have been waiting for the second one to drop! Y'all's table looks great! The sense of size, distance, and enormity you get is one of the reasons I'm moving into smaller scales, myself, with a 10mm project.
Always comes down to the same thing - "it was close" - yeah, no, not really that close. At the point of contact, close, perhaps, but then, the Union always seemed to have "a hand behind their back", like that 6th Corps just hanging out waiting... The Confederates get "close", the Union just rolls out another whole Corps.
I absolutely loved this experiment! It should be down on a lot massive scale as far as the “in field” moves. I’m a super novice on war tactics, little stronger on learning the history of battles. But I never focused on one war. The guys that did this video/reenactment have upped the history game as far as I can see. Just imagine if they were able to get several thousand actual human civil war reenactors to March as troops in that same time frame??!! I joined a CW reenactment group ONE time. Nearly passed out in the heat of Florida in mid summer just because of the cotton shirt and wool pants and jacket. The South could have won the war if they had just had tank tops and shorts.
There is no way Hood’s division moved 12 miles in 2 hours. By the way, I really love the video and concept. I’d love to see you guys do Antietam and play out how Lee would have handled things if Burnside actually just sent his division across Antietam creek.
In terms of historical simulation, it is a fundamental flaw of most wargames that movement is reliable and the maps are useful and can be trusted. If that were the case, the ANV would likely have been destroyed within the first two years of the war. Factors that generally favored Lee while defending within Virginia, now are flipped against. The road system near Gettysburg favors the AoP countering any large movement south or north. And imagine being Longstreet sitting there for 2 hours when a message arrives from Lee asking for status. Longstreet replies: "Dear Bobby. Hood is out there somewhere. Maybe in an hour I will launch my supporting attack. Dunno yet. Hope Hood is still alive. Will let you know if there is any news."
@@n6nvr You are right that it is not physically impossible to cover that ground. But as a practical matter, no division is hiking 12 miles in two hours at 6 mph over country roads in the middle of the day in July with their kit and then going on attack. Certainly not up hill. They are going to sit on their asses for two hours in the shade panting before going anywhere.
@@n6nvr You are right. And certainly we know Jackson got his boys moving rapidly in a variety of situations. Here, though, they are on unknown ground, and somewhat attempting stealth (something not discussed in the video other than the comments about whether Little Round Top was visible). Hood could not have been moving his troops at the top speed. This is why, though, I think with this counterfactual, it might be possible to prepare for a day 3 attack. However, that really only works if Hood convinces Longstreet to hold the attack, and that of course means Longstreet convincing Lee to not attack Culp's Hill....or at least, use the attack as a feinting attack to keep Union eyes to their north, not their south.
The Confederate players had Hood fight 5th Corps well behind the Union line. In actuality, Hoods' artillery would have brought the Union line under defilade fire, while the single brigade from 5th Corps on Big Round Top would have folded under the weight of the infantry attack. Then Hoods' artillery could have shifted to little Round Top while his infantry pressed on and rolled up the flank. This could have happened before 5th Corps arrived to engage Hoods Duvision.
According to several other Gettysburg historians view on this move around to the right question is that Hood would have ran into the 6th corps as well as the 5th. Now I saw the 5th corps on this battle map but I did not see where the 6th corps position. I can hardly think Hood with what he had could break the 5th let alone. By adding also in the 6th Corp I think Hood would been soundly defeated being unsupported. So once more I did not see where they position the 6th Corps in this alternate game plan.
I enjoyed both videos! Especially liked the way the players were handled in the field in the first video. An interesting concept for wargaming which allows some movement off the table.
Because of the chance element in this scenario, don't you need to run this multiple times to get some idea of likelihood that the move around the US left? What did you learn?
Yeah you'd have to run this at least a hundred times to get any real feel. All this said is that war is a roll of the dice, which is true enough. But good generals load the dice.
Great job gents. First video field study was excellent with just enough comic relief from Union command staff. When the game table was first presented, I thought the move was attacking Union III up the flank rear quarter vs. moving further into the rear guard which ultimately would have led to, and actually did lead to Hood becoming surrounded. Union V committing immediately locked Hood's Division and prevented Union III from being squeezed. Watching the turns unfold, it quickly became clear the entire move to the right was too little too late. Those role playing Hood and command were correct to march without delay which still resulted in a rushed sequence with daylight short. Surprise was their only chance and even then, a long shot. Well done!
I’m left a little frustrated by this video as it just seemed the confederate players really didn’t have any strategy here at all besides I’m just gonna throw bodies around at the earliest convenience and see what happens. If I were playing I would have had hood drive over the round tops then together with Mcclaws role over sickles with 2 divisions and if that went well redeploy hood to counter the 5th with some support from mcclaws while moving the rest of mcclaws to continue the flank attack to the center of the union line then have the rest of the confederate center support that attack which would have realistically won the battle if they rolled up the center and backs lines risking the union army being surrounded
Think I read an alternate history once where this played out. Hood launched his flank attack, and even though the Union was pushed back, they retained enough cohesion to prevent a rout, After they were pushed back into more of a circle or 'U,' instead of a fishhook; the Confederates didn't have the supplies and men for another push, in the face of approaching Union reinforcements, (6th Corps,) and had to withdraw.
So...how did Hood miracle his way over to the Union left, undetected, with no cavalry scouting to show them the way? In real life they got lost and had to countermarch to get where they were going, but here they go further and faster, with nobody noticing?
Seems like an oversight to not include Sedgwick’s VI Corps. They began arriving on the battlefield around the time of Longstreet’s attack and in this scenario the rebels would be running straight into them behind the federal lines.
The problem with this type of a war game is the nondisclosed effects of fatigue,heat and the unknown. For instance, the south had been marching in the heat. Traveling 12 miles may not seem far but the heat, lack of rest, thirst and time to march the twelve miles could have taken over 2 hours or three. That's on the southern army. Then the northern has the element of "oh no you don't come into our territory" combined with being able to maneuver in shorter distances and having the high ground. Could the outcome been the same or not? We will never know. We just accept the outcome.
Great game and interesting story line. Assuming Hood would have gone around to the right, I think it would have been more sensible for his div. to attack Little Round Top from the flank or partial rear while McClaws kept the Union line busy? In your game, having total battlefield vision, Hood chose to face the Union reserve….I wonder if in real life Hood would have been able to see the Union reserve move up to face him? Anyway, I think Hoods division would have been isolated and doomed when altering from attacking LRT.
I would have moved McLaws into Hood's historical position and moved Anderson to McLaws's. That way Sickles still gets mobbed from the front. Attacking the center and anything more than a demonstration in front of Cemetery and Culp's hills I count as a mistake.
Didn't General Lee's plan require Hood to attack when and where he did? It's a little strange to talk about Hood running off without talking about the consequences for the overall battle plan.
Sorry, I was disappointed. I was really interested on how this would go after part 1. Perhaps it was the rules, but just throwing divisions or corps enmass at each other. Hood didn't (or couldnt?) detach any brigades? Could he have lengthen his line attacking Brigades in line vs one behind the other? Why did 3rd Corps only attack with one division? Why didn't Mclaws move slightly to right to help close up on hood? Why was Sickles up at Peach Ordchard? No one mentioned if options were given or not? The Grand tactical decisions were so limited and generally obvious and simple. For a 50 minute investment of video time, to watch a 5 turn game with such little options was dull. Sorry, the table and figures were nice, but it just fell flat for me.
Agreed. The whole scenario turned on Hood causing chaos in the rear of the Union line and attacking Little round top from behind, NOT engaging a full Union 5th Corp in a stand up slugging match! 1)Yes, Half of McClaws division should have gone with Hood. With McClaws getting Hood's artillery to make a phony diversionary assault on the union left to KEEP them pinned and looking forward. 2) Speed was of the essense here so a) start earliier. b) take advantage of the 2 brigades of cavalry offered you in the first part, NOT to scout but to seize Big Roundtop and start the assault on the rear of Little Round Top as soon as possible. 2 Brigades of dismounted cavalry should have been able to sweep one Union brigade with its defenses facing the wrong way and with the Confederate troopers coming DOWN little round Top. c) when Mc Claws hears the troopers attack, Hit the Union left from the front. 3) You do NOT go ahead and charge suicidally UP Cemetary Hill 2 or 3 times getting your other corps cut to ribbons just because it is their turn in the game! Make enough of a demonstration to keep Meade uncertain with where to send 5th Corps and send reserves to Mc Claws.
McClaws was by most accounts an inefficient general (even being brought up on court martial charges by Longstreet.). I don’t see any scenario where he gives any part of his division to Hood. The two were said to be not close and bickered often over higher orders.
@johnbreitmeier3268 It's was like the Confederate players simply didn't want to win. I play a ton of Grand Tactician The Civil War and my blood was boiling watching them throw such an amazing opportunity away. One of Lee's best division completely in the Federal rear and the best they could do was feed piece meal in against the 5th Corp. Which was a mid level Corp with mid level Generals. They also forget that the Federal supply train was being kept in the exact location where Hoods men marched through.
@@ivanenfinger9331 Yes, they went to a lot of trouble to set this up with a site trip and then totally ignored the scenario and threw darts instead. Yes, Meade had more troops, DUH!!! This is why Hood wanted to do something other than replay Chancellorsville with the roles reversed. Even in the first episode I wondered if all the Confederate players were direct lineal descendants of Ambrose Burnside.
I have seen people playing board games over the years use that exact dice rolling technique as the youngest guy on the Union side achieve consistent high rolls.
I've really enjoyed these videos. The comments are great as well, really enjoying reading through the reactions. I wonder if, in this real-life scenario, Hood might have been able to take Little Roundtop before the Union's V Corps knew they were on the flank? Obviously on the tabletop, the V Corps responding immediately to the threat is the only logical move. However, if in real-life, the V Corps weren't able to respond that quickly, it seems like Hood would have been able to take Little Roundtop. That would have completely exposed the Unions flank.
The Great thing about War Gaming - is that it lets you see some of the things the real people had to deal with. Actually playing the battles - which is the fun - doesn't tell you anything about what would have happened - as - you have to many die rolls involved which could go either way. One telling thing here though was that of the position of V and VI Corps. The other thing Hood wanted to do - was just take Big Round Top and put Artillery up there. If he had done that - he would have been in a position to turn the Union Line. Of course - the best thing the South could do was hold their defensive positions and let the Union attack them. Here, I also would have attacked along the front - but - this only resulted in the bad things that happened from ever attacking there. In Retrospect - the best thing they could have done was to just concentrate on taking and holding the Round Tops to turn the Union line. This would not have defeated the Union Army - but - it would have forced them to change what they were doing - with the result dependent on what they did. Lastly though you see the effect of Jackson being killed by friendly fire and Ewell taking his place. With Jackson in command - the South may have taken Culps hill on the first day - and held the Fish Hook - leading to a completely different battle. Lee thought he had won the first day - but - by not taking the hills behind Gettysburg - he had lost. Burford didn't care about the town - his only objective was to hold the hills behind it - and because of Southern Inaction by Ewell - that decided the battle. .
Love the Texas Flag in Pennsylvania. This was the second Lone Star flag of the 1st Texas, the original having been lost in the field at Sharpsbury/Antietam.
Nice refight. I would like to have seen the players go over the tactical factors prior to the die rolls. Was Hood's Division penalized for fatigue after making such a long flanking march. I don't think Hood's Division could have beaten V Corps as easily as it did in the replay as the odds were 1:1 in my best estimation. But, I am biased as my gg gf was a Union soldier.
No discussion of exhaustion, nor of terrain modifiers. And the time it took to march seemed fast. Without brigades from the right being fed in to support III Corps. the fifth corps brigade sent to the right could be recalled.
I don't think it would have played out thar way. With Sickles remaining in line, the Union had very strong interior lines. If the 5th Corps would never have been in danger of breaking, since Brigades from other Corps would've been sent to reinforce it.
Been fascinating to watch these two videos, but I am left puzzled by the forgotten solo brigade on Little Round Top. This was the key response in the on-the-ground video, but I am puzzled as to why it didn't either flank to support McClaw's (or even be attached), or come down off LRT to flank Hood? Instead it did nothing other than run off with the rest of tV Corps.
Not if they had immediately gone up Little Round Top... V Corps hadn't even seen them. The purpose of Hood's movement was to get on the Union flank, not go all the way around to the rear of the entire Union army, unsupported and isolated from the rest of the Army of Northern Virginia.
@@mjt1229 So they go up LRT... Then the brigade gets support by fresh III Corps troops, V Corp,etc. Much better position for the North than what happened, III Corps not shattered and fleeing...
In the re-fight, this lone Union brigade comes down from Little Round Top and attacks Hood's left flank. Its hard to tell with the editing, but I think happens around 14:12 mark when they are moving the Union troops (you can see one of Hood's brigade turned 90 degrees to the left to meet this brigade). Looks like they get beaten back and eventually dissolve when V Corp breaks.
Big problem. They totally ignore the union 6th corps which began arriving behind the round tops at 3 PM. One isolated confederate division facing the union's largest corps.
Moving a division behind the Union lines away from support was always going to end in failure. Lee knew this right off the bat and this is why he refused Longstreet's repeated requests to do so. Moving the Confederate army to the south of the Union army was also impossible. The stars in their courses demanded a Confederate defeat. Meade did too good a job.
Confederate Corps were larger numerically than their Union counterparts. It might be more accurate to use 5 markers for a Rebel division and 4 for a Union. Also, Pickett did arrive at 2am on the 2nd and was available for an all out attack especially late in the day. I think Longstreet if he got his way brings Pickett too.
Good stuff. Enjoyed it. I 'wargame' 54mm Britains Civil War soldiers. Interesting to see the larger scale 6mm game. Shelby Foote was right. 'Stars in their courses'. Gettysburg was always unwinnable for the Confederates after they faiied to take Cemetery hill on day 1. And taking cemetery hill on day 1 was always impossible.
I've downloaded the Age of Lincoln. As I read it, Infantry has no ranged combat only artillery. That makes the attacks by Confederate II and III Corps really unnecessary. Move up and pin the Union troops in place. No need to engage and lose men. Maybe not the most exciting game but to me it makes better sense.
Why did you only have Early attack on the left? It looked like Johnson’s Division just sat there? Also, did the video edit out McLaws assault? It looked like you only made 1 attack with McLaws?
Hood should take out that single division and secure the hill. Set cannons up and fire rounds down the union line as McClaws forces attacked the union line. Once the union line breaks you turn the flank and use Hoods cannons to pin down the union 5th corps. Use a company or two to from Hood to establish a firing line. They should have also brought the cavalry with them to flank and help run down 5th corps after the artillery softened them up and the infantry had charged. After that it's just a mass assault from the rest of the line as you continue to turn the union flank. In theory it could work but you have to hope your men's moral and resolve holds long enough to break the enemy.
want a what if ? then do this one have Gen Pickett Div at full strength meaning Corse and Jenkins and present at ready to go on july 2nd ! have all Anderson Div ready to move as they were suppose to on July 2nd and add Gen Ransom Div (2 brig) also ready and under Longstreet and then play what if !
I would figure that Hood was counting on a similar result from Jackson at Chancersville. Which would still have meant getting all the way around and attacking through unknown terrain soon enough that nobody can respond AND igniting an unorganized withdrawal of Union troops. Had 3rd Corps only been engaged by one division, instead of two, they would have had more troops to spare to send south to the round tops. Also, hypothetically, they would have been able to better handle McLaws division. I also can’t see Hood having the same level of trust as Jackson with Lee to get the ok for a right hook march. Good would be on his own without any ability for reinforcements and unable to communicate with the main body of the army. And once the Union realized what was going on, If they didn’t break immediately, once artillery was on Little Round Top, Hood would have been blasted to pieces without needing multiple corps to respond.
Since you have the board made, why not play it again? The consensus seemed to be the other two Confederate corps should have waited at least another turn to hopefully recover more morale, and make the Union react to Hood. Give the Confederates a second chance to see if it would really make any difference.
This is the best war game video I've seen. With all that you've done before and all that Little Wars TV has done...that's saying something. Thanks for such a great treat.
Without the attack onDevils Den/Wheatfield, the Brigade on LittleRound tops and troops from III corps should have supported V Corps. No apparent modifiers for exhaustion from that extra 12 mile hump and terrain...
Realistically if Meade spotted an entire division suddenly appearing on his left flank like that he would've left the battlefield the only chance he could really do anything would be to attack hood while he's still on the march, but as the previous video pointed out it was more than possible that Hood could've moved reasonably undetected. If Hood appears on his left Meade, could sit there, but more then likely he would retreat, if not him then certainly the union troops on the left flank remembering very well Chancellorsville.
I don't think that Meade would retreat with a division on his left. He had too many men and too many wagons already in place to just pack up and move. However, as the game showed, he would have HAD to respond which would leave him with fewer troops elsewhere. I think that the Confederates could have come away with less of a mauling (especially Pickett) if Hood had gone around. After the last video, I posited that Hood could have split his forces, with the infantry taking the shorter route overland and the guns and wagons taking the longer route as a distraction. Even without artillery support, his division popping up on the right could have panicked the Union left.
Exactly. Meade would have had no iway to know whether it was a couple of brigades or whether there was a whole corps following Hood: with his flank turned, he would have been a fool not to fall back on his reserves and make a stand elsewhere, Indeed, he says as much in a cable to Halleck at 3pm on July 2nd: "If I find it hazardous [to attack], or am satisfied the enemy is endeavoring to move to my rear, and interpose between me and Washington, I shall fall back to my supplies at Westminster."
Too bad you didnt play the third day from there. Historically I imagine the Union would have withdrawn that night if they really had gotten into the rear like that.
This is more of a question and I understand this is a game, but factually, didn't 6th Corps. arrive in the afternoon of the 2nd after their march from Pipes Creek? They would have been on the east side of the Roundtops so Hood would have run right into them if he attempted this in the evening?
Conclusion: the Union army was not going to be routed or moved off superior defensive positions with ample men & supplies. The true “what if victory” scenario was the first days battle. Had the Confederate forces been better concentrated for the first days battle, that was their shot. It was was just bad after bad on day 2 & 3.
That's my takeaway as well. By the start of the second day, absent of dramatically worse decisions than were made historically, the unions strategically stronger position of fighting from interior lines was too great of an advantage.
I agree. The confederates will lose this game almost every time unless they can take all the defensive positions on the first day, and force the Union to attack them.
The only way the Confederates we’re going to win in the east was that on Day 1 Lee retreated the whole army and fought engagements against the Union corps while they were split up.
Problem with the above is, by 1863 the Union had learned the lesson of what happens when the confederates isolate corps alone so we’re very much going to remain in close formation so isolating and destroying the eastern army was essentially always going to be a pitch battle and by this time the confederates didn’t have the staying power in the field to fight a major pitch battle.
That's absolutely untrue. These dice rolling games don't prove anything because it's 100% luck of the dice. If Hoods Division had stormed into the Federal rear and then destroyed 5th Corp, the entire Federal army would have folded like a cheap house of cards. Word of 5th corps defeat would have flowed through the Union army, and the men would lose heart. They didn't even bring up the fact that the entire Federal supply train was in the exact area that Hoods men marched through. The Union army would have been cut off from their supplies completely.
@@ivanenfinger9331 although technically you are correct in that the Union side might roll fifty consecutive ‘6’s on the dice and the Confederate side might roll fifty consecutive ‘1’s on the dice, we all know that doesn’t really happen. I’ve played Gettysburg a dozen or so times using various hex board games and miniature wargame rules over the years and I’ve never seen the confederates win. If the confederates do break through anywhere, the Union uses its superiority in numbers and internal lines to smash whatever has broken through.
One thing about about this is, you guys didn't simulate sickles breaking orders and moving his corps somewhere without permission
It wouldn't have happened. Meade found out about it and ordered Sickles to return to his original position. The only reason it didn't happen in real life was because Hood engaged him and forced him to stay and fight. But if Hood is moving around the flank, Sickles has time to reform.
You forget that Hood's movement didn't put Sickles in jeoprody. If you look at the game board Sickles is too far forward but part of Hood's division split in reality to attack Sickles and lost some of it's strength for attacking Little Round Top. In this scenario Sickles is not pressured due to part of Hood's division not being there at all.
@@AnExtrovertPaints it would still have happened Hood didn't ask to move around until after sickles had moved forward and he wouldn't have been able to redeploy if he had Longstreet in his front launching Mclaws attack without Buford cavalry had no way of knowing if Longstreet had just Mclaws or his whole corp Mclaws, Hood and Pickett.
The biggest mistake was to have Pickett guarding the supply trains instead of cavalry. Pickett couldn't take Cemetery ridge on July 3rd but he could have made a significant difference on July 2nd.
They also didin't simulate Union VI Corps arrriving directly behind Hood's Division on the afternoon of July 2nd with 16,000 men.
Sure, but it would also seem reasonable that Sickles would have had an easier time defending against only a single division.
Great video and great simulation, this was probably why Longstreet refused Hoods request, he realized that even if Hood succeeded it would still be impossible to re enforce him to capitalize on a breakthrough. Big thanks and greetings from a Buff from Stockholm Sweden
Longstreet refused because Lee and Longstreet didn't know where John Sedgewick's 6th corp was. At 4:30pm on July 2nd, Sedgewick was ro the left of the 20th Maine and fully in position to repel an attempt by the right end of the confederate line.
Longstreet did not have the authority to allow Hood to freelance his men. Lee's orders were to be followed.
I played this games years ago on one of those old turn based systems with cardboard hexagons. It was with a group of like minded friends when I was at the Pentagon. It took about six months...lol. I played Lee. We had an independent "God" person running the game. I had three Corps commanders who could only see what was in front of them and report to me their intelligence. The union was the same. Now, a wrinkle. on the second night my corps under Hill was augmented by 2 divisions that I ordered from the Suffolk, VA deployment. It was a huge strategic risk for me to take, but worth it in my judgment, and playing Lee, I took it. After moving Hood around the Federals left flank, and feinting to the union right on Culp's Hill with Early, and moving Col Jenkins cav around to close a retreat over a bridge, (forget the name) behind Culp's Hill, Hill's augmented corps drove right up the gut, directly into the center of the union line and it broke. The union left routed, and the union right was encircled. Hoorah for the Bonnie Blue Flag! lol
Those are the best games when you can't see the entire battlefield and you have a game controller, i.e., "God."
Would have loved to play a strategy game with guys, oh and gals, from the Pentagon. I agree Lee could have won. Not easy to do but it could have happened.
I think the players should have marched 20 miles in July heat with minimum water,food or sleep before the game..just for added realism
Shaddap lol 😂
Interesting series of videos. I just find the entire detachment of Hood's division to swing around as far as it did to be kind of suspect to begin with. There was no way of knowing what was behind that ridge and you had Hood's entire division off by its lonesome with no support in sight if things went bad for them. If the Confederate players didn't have the foreknowledge that the Union army was also not fully assembled that day, would they have taken such an enormous gamble that risked the total loss of Hood's division if there were strong Union forces behind the Round Tops that Lee and his generals could not have known were or were not there.
That was my thought too. When the plan was outlined, I thought that it was incredibly risky. Sure, it worked at Chancellorsville, but.....
If I recall that was Lee's response when Longstreet kept asking it at one point. With Stuart off doing that glamorous crap Lee had no way of knowing what was really out there with his limited cav on hand. Was just scouts reporting and those could be reliable...or not at all.
These gambits are good bets in a table top game with a god's eye view of the situation. Hood has to move an entire division through unfamiliar roads and terrain, without getting detected. That is slow work, and he has be willing to err southwards where he is less likely to be detected. He could easily spend 3 hours in the wilderness and not be ready to attack.
After three hours of sitting on his hands with uncertain information about Hood's status, how does Longstreet coordinate the rest of his corps? What does he tell Lee regarding what the rest of the ANV should do?
As you said, the Confederates had no idea what was behind the Union line. Additionally, Hood's movement around to the right would have left a division- sized gap between Hood and McLaws- and moving McLaws to maintain a connection with Hood would have left the same gap between McLaws and Hill's corps. Leaving a gap in one's line was an invitation to disaster (as Chickamauga illustrated all to well) and isn't something that commanding generals do. It's not realistic to expect Longstreet to have done it on his own initiative or for Lee to have authorized it- because doing so would have necessitated a shift by the entire AoNV to maintain a relatively unbroken line.
Not bad with the attack happening so late in the day. Personally I think the game should be started at 6 or 7 am at the council of war Lee had that morning. If you look at the numbers 3 federal Corps 2nd 3rd and 5th on that flank with 6th in reserve, impossible for 2 divisions of 15,000 total to win. However if Lee would have made use of the rest of his fresh troops it could have made a huge difference.
On the morning of July 2nd Lee had 4 divisions of fresh troops, 2 divisions pretty much intact, and 2 divisions smashed up, with 1 division not yet on the field, Picket. Not counting 2 brigades of cavalry.
I saw a comment about Wright's brigade not being supported. Well that would have been difficult due to the decimated state of command in both Pender's and Heth's divisions. The only way this attack would have succeeded would have been with concentrated mass at several critical points. First Little round top, second Sickles left flank, and lastly the gap between 3rd and 2nd corps. 4 fresh divisions, Hood, McLaws, Anderson, Johnson, supported by Early's and Pender under Pettigrew. With Heth under Trimble and Rhodes making themselves seen so few troops could be dispatched from the federal center and far right.
I love that the Civil War still has such a hold over us. 160 years later we are still saying what if. War is horrible. However wargaming is so much fun. And don't get me started about that morale system you used in the game. Confederate 2nd and 3rd corps gets 0 and 1st and 11th corps gets 3??? Must be Lincoln who wrote the rule book.
Lol, really enjoyed your comment! Tend to agree on the morale, though tough to find a way to balance wargaming to the real-life ups and downs of battle.
Lee's poor staff work made an attack at dawn an impossibility. Longstreet had to counter march his corps because the roads he was directed to use made them observed from Little Round top. This is somewhat glossed over in the earlier video, which is why they began at 1pm. It's also why it is mentioned to them that 'you've made one counter march already, do you want to make another one'.
@@HunterhrThat, and the fact that Longstreet was dragging his feet since he thought the maneuver was doomed from the start. But this is why I’m struggling with the assertion that Hood could have made the long march within the daylight allotted.
Apparently, the Confederate players do not understand the concept of an attack en echelon, which is what Lee attempted on Day 2. So, the attack should have initiated with Hood's advance, and once Hood was in contact, McLaws would move out. Hill's Corps should not have attacked until Meade stripped his center to counter Hood and McLaws, and then Ewell should not have moved forward until Meade began moving troops off of Culp's and Cemetery Hill to fill the gap in the center created by moving Hancock to the left.
In the real battle, the Confederate attack on 2 July failed because the echelon attack broke down when nobody moved forward to support Wright's Georgia brigade. This allowed Meade to move elements of I Corps around to fill his denuded center. If the attack had continued, Meade would have found himself without any reserves to counter Ewell when he finally unleashed his attack on Cemetery Hill.
There is no time for that! Sorry, had to throw that line in there. Not enough daylight for that attack to develop.
You’re forgetting about the newly arrived VI Corps.
The attack on July 2nd was never going to succeed. Greene held Culp’s Hill while grossly outnumbered. Cemetery and Culp’s Hill were far too strong of positions.
After hearing many theories, I think Lee should have pulled 8 miles back to Cashtown where the terrain better favored defense with a mountain pass in the rear and let Meade attack him there. If Meade turned south Lee could fall on his rear. I believe Longstreet suggested this.
I thought the whole idea was to take DC?
@@nicholasmuro1742 sure, but first defeat and scatter the union army.
@bobcandon3977
Why would Meade turn south? Is it possible to just wait Lee out? Supplies were low I believe
@@nicholasmuro1742 Lincoln and the whole government was desperate for a win. Lee won Fredericksburg in December '62 and Chancellorsville in spring '63. The north was desperate for a win. All of this made Lee overconfident at Gettysburg.
@@bobcandon3977
They got a win at Vicksburg.
Ultimately the lack of Stuarts cavalry condemned Lee's army to fight an unplannned battle and become committed to battle while over extended. A partial success on day one was insufficient reward for essentially losing the war on day 3.
This is making me want to load up Empire or Napoleon total war. Very interesting stuff!
Get yourself a copy of Ultimate General: Civil War. It's a beaut. All the major battles with the historical battlefield, units and dispositions. A few custom (make your own force) battles and a campaign running through the entire war as either side (major and minor battles) to run army organisation etc as you see fit. Quite possibly the most hours (well over a thousand) I've played in any game in 30+ years of gaming, and I'm a big Total War fan and quite picky to boot.
Good game! The only way I think this works is if Hoods boys go sharp left and support that attack into Sickles. They need one big break through there to win. I don't know any other way to have a fighting chance
Agreed! Don’t tangle with the Union 5th, just slam into the flank and rear near Round Top.
@@jackcoleman5955in which case he's at risk of the unions 5th corps engaging him on the flank while making that movement. And it would require good coordination between Mclaw and Hood, which was difficult since they were separated so far from each other
@@marnixbrugmans4181 great point! maybe don't go quite so far to the rear.
1) I'm not sure your war game allows significance geography played in the battle, or the inherent advantage of defending a position.
2) I'm not sure Hood intended to smash the Union Army on the second day of the battle. Rather he may have intended merely to capture high ground on the Union flank allowing the Confederate army to continue their flanking attack from a stronger position on the third day.
Everybody's probably going to have their pet peeves about the scenario(I do); but it's still a great thought experiment.
You guys had me so excited about this ... I've never seen an army so poorly fought in my life. I had to stop it at @16:44 and just yell at my screen.
... Best quote of the game @12:05 " That's gonna leave a mark"
My thoughts as well... just smh 😮
Yep, I honestly thought the Confederate side was actively trying to lose the battle.
he V corps never rolled double digits.
Man, I really wanted to see Meade's reaction when he gets told about the flanking maneuver.
You got BINGO! Havin a brown moment in the pants.
Interesting that you would allow the General Hood players see all of the Union Army arrayed. It gives him an advantage in his security planning on the move and during the attack.
Even more so regarding the Union viewpoint. That whole reserve Corp jumped straight toward Hood at the start.
@@NefariousKoel You can't march an entire division that far undetected. Add to that the lead regiment is scouting as they go, and they've got no cavalry screen. It would have taken them until very late afternoon to get there.
Loved the first video and have been waiting for the second one to drop! Y'all's table looks great! The sense of size, distance, and enormity you get is one of the reasons I'm moving into smaller scales, myself, with a 10mm project.
The clouds & scenery painted along the interior sides of the rails was a really nice touch of detail.
Always comes down to the same thing - "it was close" - yeah, no, not really that close. At the point of contact, close, perhaps, but then, the Union always seemed to have "a hand behind their back", like that 6th Corps just hanging out waiting... The Confederates get "close", the Union just rolls out another whole Corps.
I have played a large scale Johnny Reb Civil War miniature game at a convention. Great fun.
I absolutely loved this experiment! It should be down on a lot massive scale as far as the “in field” moves.
I’m a super novice on war tactics, little stronger on learning the history of battles. But I never focused on one war.
The guys that did this video/reenactment have upped the history game as far as I can see.
Just imagine if they were able to get several thousand actual human civil war reenactors to March as troops in that same time frame??!!
I joined a CW reenactment group ONE time. Nearly passed out in the heat of Florida in mid summer just because of the cotton shirt and wool pants and jacket.
The South could have won the war if they had just had tank tops and shorts.
There is no way Hood’s division moved 12 miles in 2 hours. By the way, I really love the video and concept. I’d love to see you guys do Antietam and play out how Lee would have handled things if Burnside actually just sent his division across Antietam creek.
In terms of historical simulation, it is a fundamental flaw of most wargames that movement is reliable and the maps are useful and can be trusted. If that were the case, the ANV would likely have been destroyed within the first two years of the war. Factors that generally favored Lee while defending within Virginia, now are flipped against. The road system near Gettysburg favors the AoP countering any large movement south or north.
And imagine being Longstreet sitting there for 2 hours when a message arrives from Lee asking for status. Longstreet replies: "Dear Bobby. Hood is out there somewhere. Maybe in an hour I will launch my supporting attack. Dunno yet. Hope Hood is still alive. Will let you know if there is any news."
A brisk walk is 4 mph, so it is barely possible that the foot troops could do it. Artillery, might have kept up. Supply wagons couldn't .
@@n6nvr You are right that it is not physically impossible to cover that ground. But as a practical matter, no division is hiking 12 miles in two hours at 6 mph over country roads in the middle of the day in July with their kit and then going on attack. Certainly not up hill. They are going to sit on their asses for two hours in the shade panting before going anywhere.
@@ComradeOgilvy1984 Wonderful! Your Longstreet to Lee conversation made me literally laugh out loud. Well done!! ;)
@@n6nvr You are right. And certainly we know Jackson got his boys moving rapidly in a variety of situations. Here, though, they are on unknown ground, and somewhat attempting stealth (something not discussed in the video other than the comments about whether Little Round Top was visible). Hood could not have been moving his troops at the top speed. This is why, though, I think with this counterfactual, it might be possible to prepare for a day 3 attack. However, that really only works if Hood convinces Longstreet to hold the attack, and that of course means Longstreet convincing Lee to not attack Culp's Hill....or at least, use the attack as a feinting attack to keep Union eyes to their north, not their south.
I find it suspicious that all union corps had 3 morale automatically after being beaten and driven from the field on July 1st
And after Hannible at Chancellorsville...the CSA in your rear in force would have caused them blue belly feet to get mighty twitchy.
this series has been really fun to watch and think about both
First lesson I learned from this is "Do not allow cats to upset your tabletop formations"
I'm really enjoying this. I got in to historical miniature gaming as a way to explore just these 'what if' questions! Thanks!
The Confederate players had Hood fight 5th Corps well behind the Union line. In actuality, Hoods' artillery would have brought the Union line under defilade fire, while the single brigade from 5th Corps on Big Round Top would have folded under the weight of the infantry attack. Then Hoods' artillery could have shifted to little Round Top while his infantry pressed on and rolled up the flank. This could have happened before 5th Corps arrived to engage Hoods Duvision.
Great looking table, I'll always remember the two days of the battle of Gettysburg, since I'm not sure there's much left for the third!
Man could the Union guy running V corps have rolled double digits, at ANY point?
According to several other Gettysburg historians view on this move around to the right question is that Hood would have ran into the 6th corps as well as the 5th. Now I saw the 5th corps on this battle map but I did not see where the 6th corps position. I can hardly think Hood with what he had could break the 5th let alone. By adding also in the 6th Corp I think Hood would been soundly defeated being unsupported. So once more I did not see where they position the 6th Corps in this alternate game plan.
I enjoyed both videos! Especially liked the way the players were handled in the field in the first video. An interesting concept for wargaming which allows some movement off the table.
The Union clearly had too many soldiers to be overrun in any scenario.
Didn't the Union have a huge reserve force? Other than V Corps? Or was that it? The game through in some other Union troops
@@nicholasmuro1742VI Corps was the largest, They had just made a long March to get there . They are on map on the last turn
A very interesting game. Played in a scale that allows the whole battlefield to be seen, plus the both army's engaged.
Because of the chance element in this scenario, don't you need to run this multiple times to get some idea of likelihood that the move around the US left? What did you learn?
Yeah you'd have to run this at least a hundred times to get any real feel. All this said is that war is a roll of the dice, which is true enough. But good generals load the dice.
Hi Mark, it's been a long time my friend. Great game. I look forward to seeing more like it. Cheers!
Great job gents. First video field study was excellent with just enough comic relief from Union command staff. When the game table was first presented, I thought the move was attacking Union III up the flank rear quarter vs. moving further into the rear guard which ultimately would have led to, and actually did lead to Hood becoming surrounded. Union V committing immediately locked Hood's Division and prevented Union III from being squeezed. Watching the turns unfold, it quickly became clear the entire move to the right was too little too late. Those role playing Hood and command were correct to march without delay which still resulted in a rushed sequence with daylight short. Surprise was their only chance and even then, a long shot. Well done!
Major flaw is when union 6th corps arrived at Gettysburg,supposedly during the afternoon
. 6th corps was almost twice the size of hood's division
I’m left a little frustrated by this video as it just seemed the confederate players really didn’t have any strategy here at all besides I’m just gonna throw bodies around at the earliest convenience and see what happens. If I were playing I would have had hood drive over the round tops then together with Mcclaws role over sickles with 2 divisions and if that went well redeploy hood to counter the 5th with some support from mcclaws while moving the rest of mcclaws to continue the flank attack to the center of the union line then have the rest of the confederate center support that attack which would have realistically won the battle if they rolled up the center and backs lines risking the union army being surrounded
That morale score by corps was not even relevant. Try this again with a more granular look at morale of brigades.
Think I read an alternate history once where this played out.
Hood launched his flank attack, and even though the Union was pushed back, they retained enough cohesion to prevent a rout,
After they were pushed back into more of a circle or 'U,' instead of a fishhook; the Confederates didn't have the supplies and men for another push, in the face of approaching Union reinforcements, (6th Corps,) and had to withdraw.
Been waiting for this video. Looking forward to the video.
So...how did Hood miracle his way over to the Union left, undetected, with no cavalry scouting to show them the way? In real life they got lost and had to countermarch to get where they were going, but here they go further and faster, with nobody noticing?
Why didn't the union artillery take more shoots?
Seems like an oversight to not include Sedgwick’s VI Corps. They began arriving on the battlefield around the time of Longstreet’s attack and in this scenario the rebels would be running straight into them behind the federal lines.
The problem with this type of a war game is the nondisclosed effects of fatigue,heat and the unknown. For instance, the south had been marching in the heat. Traveling 12 miles may not seem far but the heat, lack of rest, thirst and time to march the twelve miles could have taken over 2 hours or three. That's on the southern army. Then the northern has the element of "oh no you don't come into our territory" combined with being able to maneuver in shorter distances and having the high ground. Could the outcome been the same or not? We will never know. We just accept the outcome.
This was awesome. Would really like to see how you all tackle, what is, IMHO the ultimate head-scratcher of a battle: Chancellorsville.
This looked very much like the Battle of Atlanta. A flank attack that was so wide that it hit behind federal lines and could not be supported.
"There ain't enough time!"
The Confederate Left and Center needed to demonstrate and not commit. They need to get up on round top with artillery and enfilade the Union line.
Great game and interesting story line.
Assuming Hood would have gone around to the right, I think it would have been more sensible for his div. to attack Little Round Top from the flank or partial rear while McClaws kept the Union line busy?
In your game, having total battlefield vision, Hood chose to face the Union reserve….I wonder if in real life Hood would have been able to see the Union reserve move up to face him?
Anyway, I think Hoods division would have been isolated and doomed when altering from attacking LRT.
I would have moved McLaws into Hood's historical position and moved Anderson to McLaws's. That way Sickles still gets mobbed from the front. Attacking the center and anything more than a demonstration in front of Cemetery and Culp's hills I count as a mistake.
Didn't General Lee's plan require Hood to attack when and where he did? It's a little strange to talk about Hood running off without talking about the consequences for the overall battle plan.
Sorry, I was disappointed. I was really interested on how this would go after part 1. Perhaps it was the rules, but just throwing divisions or corps enmass at each other. Hood didn't (or couldnt?) detach any brigades? Could he have lengthen his line attacking Brigades in line vs one behind the other? Why did 3rd Corps only attack with one division? Why didn't Mclaws move slightly to right to help close up on hood? Why was Sickles up at Peach Ordchard? No one mentioned if options were given or not? The Grand tactical decisions were so limited and generally obvious and simple. For a 50 minute investment of video time, to watch a 5 turn game with such little options was dull. Sorry, the table and figures were nice, but it just fell flat for me.
Agreed. The whole scenario turned on Hood causing chaos in the rear of the Union line and attacking Little round top from behind, NOT engaging a full Union 5th Corp in a stand up slugging match!
1)Yes, Half of McClaws division should have gone with Hood. With McClaws getting Hood's artillery to make a phony diversionary assault on the union left to KEEP them pinned and looking forward.
2) Speed was of the essense here so a) start earliier. b) take advantage of the 2 brigades of cavalry offered you in the first part, NOT to scout but to seize Big Roundtop and start the assault on the rear of Little Round Top as soon as possible. 2 Brigades of dismounted cavalry should have been able to sweep one Union brigade with its defenses facing the wrong way and with the Confederate troopers coming DOWN little round Top. c) when Mc Claws hears the troopers attack, Hit the Union left from the front.
3) You do NOT go ahead and charge suicidally UP Cemetary Hill 2 or 3 times getting your other corps cut to ribbons just because it is their turn in the game! Make enough of a demonstration to keep Meade uncertain with where to send 5th Corps and send reserves to Mc Claws.
McClaws was by most accounts an inefficient general (even being brought up on court martial charges by Longstreet.).
I don’t see any scenario where he gives any part of his division to Hood. The two were said to be not close and bickered often over higher orders.
@johnbreitmeier3268 It's was like the Confederate players simply didn't want to win. I play a ton of Grand Tactician The Civil War and my blood was boiling watching them throw such an amazing opportunity away. One of Lee's best division completely in the Federal rear and the best they could do was feed piece meal in against the 5th Corp. Which was a mid level Corp with mid level Generals.
They also forget that the Federal supply train was being kept in the exact location where Hoods men marched through.
@@ivanenfinger9331 Yes, they went to a lot of trouble to set this up with a site trip and then totally ignored the scenario and threw darts instead. Yes, Meade had more troops, DUH!!! This is why Hood wanted to do something other than replay Chancellorsville with the roles reversed.
Even in the first episode I wondered if all the Confederate players were direct lineal descendants of Ambrose Burnside.
I have seen people playing board games over the years use that exact dice rolling technique as the youngest guy on the Union side achieve consistent high rolls.
Rolling the die in a tray? I assure you, I was surprised at my luck. I’m usually the guy with low rolls
GEN. Longstreet " we must move to the right and take them from the rear !!!!!! ( Gettysburg 1863 )
Thank you for this very exciting and engrossing "what-if" simulation/war game!!!
I've really enjoyed these videos. The comments are great as well, really enjoying reading through the reactions. I wonder if, in this real-life scenario, Hood might have been able to take Little Roundtop before the Union's V Corps knew they were on the flank? Obviously on the tabletop, the V Corps responding immediately to the threat is the only logical move. However, if in real-life, the V Corps weren't able to respond that quickly, it seems like Hood would have been able to take Little Roundtop. That would have completely exposed the Unions flank.
Why not Altar of Freedom?
The Great thing about War Gaming - is that it lets you see some of the things the real people had to deal with.
Actually playing the battles - which is the fun - doesn't tell you anything about what would have happened - as - you have to many die rolls involved which could go either way.
One telling thing here though was that of the position of V and VI Corps.
The other thing Hood wanted to do - was just take Big Round Top and put Artillery up there. If he had done that - he would have been in a position to turn the Union Line.
Of course - the best thing the South could do was hold their defensive positions and let the Union attack them.
Here, I also would have attacked along the front - but - this only resulted in the bad things that happened from ever attacking there. In Retrospect - the best thing they could have done was to just concentrate on taking and holding the Round Tops to turn the Union line. This would not have defeated the Union Army - but - it would have forced them to change what they were doing - with the result dependent on what they did.
Lastly though you see the effect of Jackson being killed by friendly fire and Ewell taking his place. With Jackson in command - the South may have taken Culps hill on the first day - and held the Fish Hook - leading to a completely different battle.
Lee thought he had won the first day - but - by not taking the hills behind Gettysburg - he had lost. Burford didn't care about the town - his only objective was to hold the hills behind it - and because of Southern Inaction by Ewell - that decided the battle.
.
There should be a part 3 ! Union Corps 2 can still regroup and rejoin Hooks and perhaps 3rd Corp joining the left flank in support.
Hoods genealogy is such a mystery. I’m a Hood, and I’ve tried researching. Seems like after 1900 the story of the Hood family falls off of the map.
Me literally shouting 'BUT WHERE'S VI CORPS' and then VI corps arrives
Love the Texas Flag in Pennsylvania. This was the second Lone Star flag of the 1st Texas, the original having been lost in the field at Sharpsbury/Antietam.
Fantastic! Well done, great set up and beautiful table.
Matt certainly looks the part !
Wasn't there a full corp behind, the hill. And what would have keep the Union from attacking .The flanking maneuver ?
This was an interesting experience. Please keep sharing the fun.
Nice refight. I would like to have seen the players go over the tactical factors prior to the die rolls. Was Hood's Division penalized for fatigue after making such a long flanking march. I don't think Hood's Division could have beaten V Corps as easily as it did in the replay as the odds were 1:1 in my best estimation. But, I am biased as my gg gf was a Union soldier.
No discussion of exhaustion, nor of terrain modifiers. And the time it took to march seemed fast.
Without brigades from the right being fed in to support III Corps. the fifth corps brigade sent to the right could be recalled.
So Analog, I love it!
I might have named this Hooks Right Hook. Lovely board.
Meanwhile, the union hopes of keeping Lee in the east were realized and vicksburg fell
I don't think it would have played out thar way. With Sickles remaining in line, the Union had very strong interior lines. If the 5th Corps would never have been in danger of breaking, since Brigades from other Corps would've been sent to reinforce it.
Been fascinating to watch these two videos, but I am left puzzled by the forgotten solo brigade on Little Round Top. This was the key response in the on-the-ground video, but I am puzzled as to why it didn't either flank to support McClaw's (or even be attached), or come down off LRT to flank Hood? Instead it did nothing other than run off with the rest of tV Corps.
I want to know why Hood didn't steamroll this single brigade
@@mjt1229 Because he had four other brigades to deal with.
Not if they had immediately gone up Little Round Top... V Corps hadn't even seen them.
The purpose of Hood's movement was to get on the Union flank, not go all the way around to the rear of the entire Union army, unsupported and isolated from the rest of the Army of Northern Virginia.
@@mjt1229 So they go up LRT...
Then the brigade gets support by fresh III Corps troops, V Corp,etc.
Much better position for the North than what happened, III Corps not shattered and fleeing...
In the re-fight, this lone Union brigade comes down from Little Round Top and attacks Hood's left flank. Its hard to tell with the editing, but I think happens around 14:12 mark when they are moving the Union troops (you can see one of Hood's brigade turned 90 degrees to the left to meet this brigade). Looks like they get beaten back and eventually dissolve when V Corp breaks.
Awesome from start to finish!! Great Job!!
Big problem. They totally ignore the union 6th corps which began arriving behind the round tops at 3 PM. One isolated confederate division facing the union's largest corps.
22:00 nice Howard Dean reference lol +1 to roll BYAHHHHH 😂
Moving a division behind the Union lines away from support was always going to end in failure. Lee knew this right off the bat and this is why he refused Longstreet's repeated requests to do so. Moving the Confederate army to the south of the Union army was also impossible. The stars in their courses demanded a Confederate defeat. Meade did too good a job.
Adapted ancient rules ? Dodgy CSA morale ? I'm in 4 minutes, I'll get back to y'all...
Confederate Corps were larger numerically than their Union counterparts. It might be more accurate to use 5 markers for a Rebel division and 4 for a Union.
Also, Pickett did arrive at 2am on the 2nd and was available for an all out attack especially late in the day.
I think Longstreet if he got his way brings Pickett too.
Why didn't the Brigade from 5th Corps on Lil Round Top not come to the main 5th Corps assistance and hit Hood on the flank?
Why was Hood on the table from the beginning? Should he have been “seen” first?
Good stuff. Enjoyed it. I 'wargame' 54mm Britains Civil War soldiers. Interesting to see the larger scale 6mm game. Shelby Foote was right. 'Stars in their courses'. Gettysburg was always unwinnable for the Confederates after they faiied to take Cemetery hill on day 1. And taking cemetery hill on day 1 was always impossible.
Great game guys. (Long time ACW wargamer from over in Europe)
I've downloaded the Age of Lincoln. As I read it, Infantry has no ranged combat only artillery. That makes the attacks by Confederate II and III Corps really unnecessary. Move up and pin the Union troops in place. No need to engage and lose men. Maybe not the most exciting game but to me it makes better sense.
Why did you only have Early attack on the left? It looked like Johnson’s Division just sat there? Also, did the video edit out McLaws assault? It looked like you only made 1 attack with McLaws?
My God, that is an amazing map! love it
Hood should take out that single division and secure the hill. Set cannons up and fire rounds down the union line as McClaws forces attacked the union line. Once the union line breaks you turn the flank and use Hoods cannons to pin down the union 5th corps. Use a company or two to from Hood to establish a firing line.
They should have also brought the cavalry with them to flank and help run down 5th corps after the artillery softened them up and the infantry had charged.
After that it's just a mass assault from the rest of the line as you continue to turn the union flank.
In theory it could work but you have to hope your men's moral and resolve holds long enough to break the enemy.
besides the union had the interior lines and Hood cut himself off and risk his Corps being captured in whole
want a what if ? then do this one have Gen Pickett Div at full strength meaning Corse and Jenkins and present at ready to go on july 2nd ! have all Anderson Div ready to move as they were suppose to on July 2nd and add Gen Ransom Div (2 brig) also ready and under Longstreet and then play what if !
I would figure that Hood was counting on a similar result from Jackson at Chancersville. Which would still have meant getting all the way around and attacking through unknown terrain soon enough that nobody can respond AND igniting an unorganized withdrawal of Union troops. Had 3rd Corps only been engaged by one division, instead of two, they would have had more troops to spare to send south to the round tops. Also, hypothetically, they would have been able to better handle McLaws division. I also can’t see Hood having the same level of trust as Jackson with Lee to get the ok for a right hook march. Good would be on his own without any ability for reinforcements and unable to communicate with the main body of the army. And once the Union realized what was going on, If they didn’t break immediately, once artillery was on Little Round Top, Hood would have been blasted to pieces without needing multiple corps to respond.
Since you have the board made, why not play it again? The consensus seemed to be the other two Confederate corps should have waited at least another turn to hopefully recover more morale, and make the Union react to Hood. Give the Confederates a second chance to see if it would really make any difference.
Wasn’t Custer’s cavalry available to scout the movement of McLaw’s?
This is the best war game video I've seen. With all that you've done before and all that Little Wars TV has done...that's saying something. Thanks for such a great treat.
Where is the Union Artillery reserve which is like 9 Brigades or so? Is it on the table and I can not see it?
Did the n6th Corps play any part in the game and could Hood have handled it when it arrived on the 3rd day? A full but tired corps of 15,000 men.
Without the attack onDevils Den/Wheatfield, the Brigade on LittleRound tops and troops from III corps should have supported V Corps.
No apparent modifiers for exhaustion from that extra 12 mile hump and terrain...
Realistically if Meade spotted an entire division suddenly appearing on his left flank like that he would've left the battlefield the only chance he could really do anything would be to attack hood while he's still on the march, but as the previous video pointed out it was more than possible that Hood could've moved reasonably undetected. If Hood appears on his left Meade, could sit there, but more then likely he would retreat, if not him then certainly the union troops on the left flank remembering very well Chancellorsville.
I don't think that Meade would retreat with a division on his left. He had too many men and too many wagons already in place to just pack up and move. However, as the game showed, he would have HAD to respond which would leave him with fewer troops elsewhere. I think that the Confederates could have come away with less of a mauling (especially Pickett) if Hood had gone around. After the last video, I posited that Hood could have split his forces, with the infantry taking the shorter route overland and the guns and wagons taking the longer route as a distraction. Even without artillery support, his division popping up on the right could have panicked the Union left.
They had MANY reserves
Exactly. Meade would have had no iway to know whether it was a couple of brigades or whether there was a whole corps following Hood: with his flank turned, he would have been a fool not to fall back on his reserves and make a stand elsewhere, Indeed, he says as much in a cable to Halleck at 3pm on July 2nd: "If I find it hazardous [to attack], or am satisfied the enemy is endeavoring to move to my rear, and interpose between me and Washington, I shall fall back to my supplies at Westminster."
@@stuartjarman4930 No, he would have used his reserves to counterattack.
@@robertelder164 These were his own words, not something I made up. He was prepared to retreat if flanked,
Yeah, I think not detaching Anderson's division from Hill and moving them into direct support of McLaws was foolish.
Too bad you didnt play the third day from there. Historically I imagine the Union would have withdrawn that night if they really had gotten into the rear like that.
Thanks for the 6th core comment. What might be interesting is playing it with a couple of different game rules.
This is more of a question and I understand this is a game, but factually, didn't 6th Corps. arrive in the afternoon of the 2nd after their march from Pipes Creek? They would have been on the east side of the Roundtops so Hood would have run right into them if he attempted this in the evening?