As once an evangelical but now LDS I can testify that the Bible holds the Word of God and invites the Holy Spirit, but it is the Book of Mormon that has pierced my heart numerous times and the Holy Spirit burnt it in my heart that it is true. A miracle moment of perfect union with God has resulted. I understand it’s a stumbling block for you Pastor Jeff, as it once was for me. But perseverance, pure intent and submission to God brought these miracles of witness.
Reading The Book of Mormon with Pure intent, Like A Child (a first grader - ignoring first those names and places..) Would make it Simple and Easier ... During My Time in The Mission Field - interested People Would Recognized it and Acknowledge The Book of Mormon BUT its The Lifestyle Change that hinders them To A Clergyman its the Finances, the "Fame and Honor", to A Business Person its "Time Commitment (3+hrs and Tithing plus Volunteering or Home Teaching (Now its Ministering) To Most its The Word of Wisdom or Law of Chastity There are Those Who would acknowledge The Book of Mormon is True BUT They Cannot DO the Repentance Process 100% to be Baptized And Those Who Are Courageous Enough - To ForeGo Those Things - Been Baptized Stayed Devoted or ...
@@Ihayden That’s a long used Christian objection born out of fear. I’ve walked both yet you have not. It’s the same God and the same Spirit and you need not fear it. If the LDS Church is good enough for God then it’s good enough for me. At the end of the day He will be my judge. And for that I am forever grateful. God bless you for your righteous concern. But may I let you know it is misplaced 😊
@@janeeyre8241 thank you for your reply! Believe me, as my response was not from a place of fear. I do not fear the BoM or the spirit it possesses. Yes we will both be judged by God. That's why I thank him for Jesus as he fulfilled the law on my behalf and paid the penalty for my sins and now I don't count on my own righteousness but that of Christ and I will be able to rejoice in the full presence of God praising His name forever
I grew up a Catholic. I had a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Bible was the word of God when I began to study with the missionaries at age 32. They told me to read Moroni 10:3-5. I did. But I received no witness. On the day of my baptism in 1977 I did not know if the Book of Mormon was the word of God. I did not know if Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I did not know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was what it had been represented to me as - the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost had not witnessed to me of the truthfulness of any of these things. But I was baptized anyway. I was willing to put these things to the test. I started attending all meetings. I received the priesthood. I paid tithes. I accepted callings and assignments. My knowledge of the truthfulness of the Restoration did not come to me in a recognizable flash of revelation, but rather it distilled upon my soul as the dews from heaven (D&C 121:45). It was only much later that I understood how it was that I received a certain testimony of this work: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:16-17). I came to know by doing the will of my Father.
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
I LOVE THIS, JOHN!!!!!! Faith is an ACTION word and you took action! What an amazing story and testimony of God's will and God's timing! I appreciate this, Brother!
@@johngreene7790 that is amazingly courageous! I fear that someone in Jeff’s position would have a huge upward battle if he chose to move on to follow the restored gospel . His friends, family, career, and possibly his wife could all be lost.
@@jonathangardner3121 correct . The New Testament is vital for all mankind to understand. As is the Old Testament. Without which we wouldn’t know the plan of salvation.
@@melanieking1172 Actually, the OT could be wrong and the NT still true. In fact, most of the OT probably is false. A worldwide flood killing babies in the Australian bush who received no warning of anything and knew nothing of the God of Middle Eastern tribes? Changing languages in a way that we know is wrong due to studying how languages and linguistics started and have worked and evolved over time? And on and on. And the NT is on shaky ground as well. As ALL of it was written AFTER Jesus's life by non-eyewitnesses. Stories/legends spread/grew by word of mouth for years beforehand/before any writing of it took place. In the case of certain books like The Book of John, it was written DECADES after the fact and not by John, but by people who never even met Jesus. And The Book of John conveniently expands on the earlier, more rudimentary and vaguer story of The Book of Mark (which also wasn't written by Mark). And even of those writings, the earliest document we have is the size of a credit card from 100 years after the fact and is a copy of previous copies, not original. And guess how many times the testaments (again, that we have NO originals of) were re-copied? A LOT. Simple biblical scholarship. Classes on it should be required imo. BYU professors such as Thomas Wayment know this stuff, he could teach it. (Jesus couldn't be bothered to write and ensure the preservation of anything himself? The most important of all messages that our eternities ride upon? Nothing? But now he tells us to journal our less-significant lives? Do as I say, not as I did, I guess. ...Or humans are just making things up as we go along? Building on the mythology. To cope with life/death, etc.) Sorry this is so long.
Well done champ. Reading some one else’s holy book to have an informed opinion and respectfully disagree is one of the most open minded bridge building exercises one can do. Merry Christmas to you and your wife, my brother in Christ.
Hmmm...well done to those of us that followed the religion for 30 plus years and finally realized it cannot be true and respectfully disagree with you...or are we still what your prophet calls "lazy learners"?
I haven’t heard that for over 20 years, i knew exactly what that was when you repeated the sacrament prayer. I actually had no idea it was in the BOM. Although I am a Biblical Christian now, I am reading through the Book of Mormon for the first time. I am in Alma.
God loves all who love Him, who love goodness, whether the light of Christ in them is a flickering in the wind of other doctrines (Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Sikh, Ba'hai...) or whether they know Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. Their Christ, your Christ, our Christ as people of planet earth throughout the ages. Praise Elohim and Jehovah for the Great Plan of Creation, Salvation, Happiness and Exaltation, through faith, learning, agency, and an infinite and merciful Atonement.
@jessicajeff- When Jesus Christ appeared to and ministered to the Nephites after His resurrection, it was Jesus Christ who gave the words in the sacramental prayers to remember His body and blood.
@@jessicajeffs293 Welcome to the LDS Farris wheel of personal worthiness. Let me save you years of difficulties and tell if you have ANY hope as a member, you’ll have obey ALL commandments. If you can’t do that then you won’t be able to obtain LDS eternal life, repentance, “Grace”. Etc…
My husband, when on a mission for the church, prayed to know whether or not the Book of Mormon was true. He read through the whole thing and still didn't have a witness. He then, in his second time of reading it, noticed the verse before Moroni 10:4 which reads: 3 "Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts." After reading this verse, he saw almost like a vision or panaramic view, instantly, of how God had mercifully ministered to our world, starting from the creation to the present. He, then, instantly realized the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon! This has continued to be a great gift to him, to our family and in his ministry to others.
This is so often overlooked. Yet it is the key to understanding why the Book of Mormon was brought forth. We are to recognize how merciful God has been to all of his children. Pray to recognize that mercy, and seek a testimony of that . Testimonies come line upon line for most people.
Really powerful doctrine is taught in Moroni 8. Baptism of children goes against the practice in so many Christian faiths. Yet makes no sense when we read Moroni 8.
@@rcckf Adam & Eve are mentioned 26 times in the BofM. But Jackson County as Adam-ondi-Ahman, the place where Adam dwelt is D&C. Thing is Earth life didn't start 6K years ago & didn't originate where Joe claims.
One of the reasons some do not receive an answer is because there's still some resistance on the implications. If one receives a witness that the Book of Mormon is also true then that would mean Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and if he was a prophet of God than the church that He restored is truly Christ's true church on the Earth. When one is not ready to make that big life change it would make sense that they may not receive an answer right away. It takes time for the spirit to work on our hearts. sometimes we're not ready for the answers God has for us.
And of course, one must admit, if honest, that one reason folks (in fact, numerically most folks who've encountered LDS theology reject it...) don't "receive an answer" is because the proposition is false. If you can't admit that possibility, then I would actually question the sincerity of your claim to have received an answer. The inverse is also correct.
@@rodneyjamesmcguireI was once evangelical and now I’m LDS. I can assure you we do receive a true witness from God that the Book of Mormon is His Word. I had already felt the Holy Spirit as evangelical. It was on steroids when I became LDS and remains a constant miracle 27 years later. The Church is true!
@@rodneyjamesmcguire of course thats true, but being honest I just love the book of Mormon and I have a witness of its truth. If other people arent "shown by the holy ghost its truth" just like with the bible. even if you don't feel the spirit doesn't make it true or false. Its just asking you to do this as an act of faith to God, to lean on Gods understanding and not your own. I think that's really what it means to pray and ask about whether its true but that's just my opinion
@@janeeyre8241 And many, many more people would say the opposite to what you claim. This is why I think it's a terrible means to know truth. Why believe you over them? Them over you? Third option...both wrong...?
@@SunRezGreen The verse says to ask whether it is NOT true, btw... You're right, feelings, no matter how personally profound and important, don't tell us what is true, or not. If that were the case, then we'd side, unequivocally with the "not true" side, as there's vastly more folks that have rejected the LDS theology than have accepted it. Seems strange that a "loving God" wouldn't make it a bit more obvious that it's true, to his children.
I wish all people were as kind and loving and sensible as Dr. Griffin. You answered Jeff's thoughtful questions with humility but with real conviction. I appreciated that Pastor Jeff was honest about his feelings and was comfortable enough to bring up his heartfelt concerns about the Book of Mormon. I think asking honest, well formulated questions helps us find and hold to truth. I fear that so many of any faith just follow what they been taught as children and never really ask themselves the hard questions. If a religion can't hold up to tough scrutiny, I'd be looking elsewhere. I applaud Jeff for asking hard questions and I suspect he asks hard questions of his own beliefs. At 72 yo I hope to grow up to have the meekness of Dr. Griffin. With each remark you made I could feel your love for Jeff and your sincerity and your conviction of the truthfulness of what you taught. I really enjoyed this conversation and felt inspired to embrace more of the qualities of Christ. Thank-you.
Jeff ! After I have read the book of Mormon. I would re-read the Old and the New Testament. I noticed something special! I saw them in a different light ! They became clearer to me! I began to understand what was being taught in the Old and New Testament! I hope and pray that this will happen for you too!
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
@@jonathangardner3121 Certainly can. It has impressed me lately that the Book of Mormon are people kind of encouraging us to "believe in Christ". Maybe the Lord knew we'd need a little extra encouragement? Peace and hugs! :)
At time stamp 1:48 Pastor Jeff explains his motivation for reading the Book of Mormon. This explanation probably reveals why it may still be awhile yet for Pastor Jeff before the promise of Moroni is felt.
100% agree! Pastor Jeff has told his audience many times his " real intent" behind reading the Book Of Mormon, which is many good things, but unfortunately not the most important reason for reading it and pondering it, which is to hear the voice of Lord, come to better know Him, His Gospel, enter into a convental relationship with Him, and in His own way and time carry the message of its truthfulness to his heart by the power of the Holy Ghost!! One of the key ingredients is " Real Intent" along with sincerity, humility and faith in Christ!! Jeff, I believe you are on a path that will lead you and your family to this knowledge and blessing someday!
BINGO! His intent isn't to find truth but to understand another faith. Let this be a reminder to all of us to always be open to the Holy Spirit no matter what.
Yes! He is reading it to pick it apart, not to know if it is true. Your heart opens up differently when you invite the spirit to teach you. Jeff is focused on his own 'teaching'.
@@micahstubblefield yes! Unless ofcourse it goes against our own faith then we will just think they are not praying correctly, being deceived, missing something and have a secret agenda to keep them away from our real truth.
Wow, I learned a lot from this video. Thank you for making it and thank you Pastor Jeff for asking those questions. I've read the Book of Mormon a couple of times and now I see it in a little bit of a different light thanks to the clear answers from Tyler. My testimony has increased.
When I finished reading the Book of Mormon about 12 years ago and arrived to Moroni's promise, I didn't receive an answer directly when praying. I did feel strongly that I should keep on reading. A few weeks later, while in 2nd Nephi, it suddenly became very important to me to know for a certainty if the Book of Mormon was true, and when I prayed, it became almost instantaneously clear to me that it was true, I felt the Holy Ghost's warmth in my heart like never before and knew it was true. Our spirituality is a personal journey, and the Almighty is wise in guiding us to the truth.
I had a very similar experience... I didn’t receive any answer the first time reading the Book of Mormon but when I came to Alma 30:44 on my second go-around I got the overwhelming impression that I was asking for an answer that I already had. I go back to that experience often when I’m struggling to find answers and remember that sometimes the answer is already right in front of me.
@@timmiestabrnak There are very similar verses to that in the bible the word darkness and light in those verses are talking about symbolic light and dark not skin tone. its willful ignorance to take these verses out of there context. the lamanites were cursed with a mark of darkness symbolic of the evil in there hearts. lol and the nephites weren't white either they were also brown they came from the middle east into the promised lands of america.
@@timmiestabrnak You have no idea how any of this matters so little in the grand scheme of things. I know the Book of Mormon to be true, and the gospel has made me a better man. If it isn't true, the Church will ultimately fail, if it is, then your conclusions are mistaken. Anything else is of little consequence
I’ve tuned in to almost all of the videos. Love it!! Whether you believe in the message of the Book of Mormon or not, you’ve been a missionary for God to the world with this platform. I appreciate your entire effort…sincerely.
I read the Book of Mormon, my heart was very Hard AGINST the Book of Mormon, I fasted and Prayed to God to show me this book is not true…the Power of this book Did surround me and my Heart… this was Powerful, I didn’t believe in Joe Smith or his story, with a hard heart that soon was turned to Mush by the Holy Ghost! And I knew THIS BOOK WAS TRUE! The spirit let me know so powerful, that if I was to deny this truth, then my soul would weep with sorrow! And I knew without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God.. the scales of unbelief had fallen from my eyes I could not deny the light of this truth!
I love your testimony. 😊 people outside of the church like to sometimes claim we have confirmation bias. But they don't realize that many of us actively didn't want the church to be true for myriad reasons. It's not confirmation bias. It really is the Holy Spirit testifying of truth.
@gwengold8154 yeah confirmation bias my foot, as a young man I knew if I was told the Book of Mormon was true ud be taking a vow of celibacy on steroids for two years in potentially a foreign country when I could easily stay home, date like normal and finish school quicker.
This is why the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. If it’s not true, then nothing else is either. But if it IS true, then Joseph Smith IS a prophet, then Russell M. Nelson is a prophet, and Jesus Christ appeared to the remnant of Joseph in the Americas, etc., etc.
My heart was also hardened against it but I pushed against my convictions being raised Presbyterian. Being told to pray if it wasn’t true in hind sight was a manipulative move that coerced me into the hardening my heart against the truthfulness of the Bible and in turn fell pray to my own emotions. I lived the LDS faith for 9 years before I was by His unfailing faithfulness saved from a different gospel, a different christ, and a different spirit. The moment I took my heart felt concerns about the doctrines of Mormonism I was promptly removed from serving as the second counselor and “shunned” by the church. I remained in attendance for a while but there was a spirit in me that longed for inclusion but testified strongly that something was horribly wrong with the god of Mormonism. Since then my wife and I have returned to what we call traditional Christianity and have been filled with His unfailing love. LDS folks have a special place in our hearts because we were once where they are now and pray that God gives them the measure of grace He has given us and the confidence that this who seek Him shall find Him.
Key is that you have to pray with real intent. Not because you are just curious about the book intellectually. You have to be totally honest to the point that if it is true and you receive that witness of the Holy Ghost that you will convert. Also the promise is that you will know the truth of all things. Yes, the truth of all things. That is a powerful statement. You have to really be humble, contrite and sincerely want to know the truth. It takes real courage because finding out the real truth involves change and people fear that.
Jeff asks a bunch of really direct and tough-to-answer questions here. I appreciate Jeff for asking his questions in a sincerely curious way; I appreciate Dr. Griffin for not feeling threatened; and I appreciate them both for respecting each other's autonomy and good intentions despite the differences in belief.
Yes, I really appreciated the fact that neither man shyed away from what he was believing. Jeff wasn't hesitant to say he didn't believe and to ask questions. And the guest didn't hide his belief that it is true and that Jeff will eventually come to that realization in time. And neither were threatened or offended by these differing views! I love it
I really love hearing Dr. Griffin and his knowledge and experience and testimony. He’s the perfect person to have a nice calm conversation with about the gospel.
I went to Methodist church and the Methodist church boarding school in Taiwan, and when I was 17, I attended LDS church Institute just out of curiosity, and I recived my testimony. Then I went to the smeinar I read Book of Morman, and D&C, the Holy Ghost was very strong, so I know that the LDS is the true church.
As a former Lutheran, I felt the power of the Book of Mormon as I first read it. I have reread the BoM throughout my life, and the BoM has greatly enhanced my understanding of the Bible, which I have also studied in depth. I'm grateful to have all these witnesses of Christ.
The other day in the temple I was repenting for not reading my scriptures as regularly as I had before and my prayers were in my mind all day long and at night but not in the morning and as I was asking for forgiveness for that, Jesus said in my mind to me "I am merciful". This experience has given me such hope!
I read the book of Mormon when I was younger and didn't get an answer. I fell away from church and got involved with addiction for a couple decades. After I got clean, I read again and got an answer this time. Since going through addiction and getting clean, I realize that addiction is filling a God sized hole with man made things. These experiences have helped me to help so many others get free from addiction. Looking back, I see that God's timing was perfect. His timing helped me to help others back to him, even though it was 20 years after I asked. God's timing is always perfect. I love what you're doing Paster Jeff. Loving thy neighbors. Building bridges of understanding. It's so important to our God's plan for all of us! Also, I want to hear about what you believe when our theological beliefs differ. I want to understand.
Thank you, so much, for sharing your story. It's amazing! I just watched another youtube video I think you'd find some value in (it made me bawl like a baby, it was so good). th-cam.com/video/QV70Mlb4G2c/w-d-xo.html
This is a beautiful model of how to have a productive conversation between two people who disagree. Thank you Pastor Jeff and Brother Griffin for showing us how it's done. A masterclass in active listening.
@@janeeyre8241I recently travelled abroad to Asia and as blown away by the amount of respect the eastern culture treats one another with. I definitely miss it here in the US. Pastor Jeff’s example is invaluable and something we all should strive to be. Respectful. Just I magine
I loved this video and learned so much! I have grown up in the church and tonight as we were discussing Moroni 10 my husband and I shared how our hearts have been converted since we both can remember. There were periods in my life where I wasn’t sure if I wanted to continue being active but thankfully God never gave up on me. There were times when I didn’t know if the entire Book of Mormon was true but it took pressing forward and continuing to choose to believe that has brought me to this point in my life that I have my own personal testimony and relationship with God and His Son Jesus Christ. It took a lot of time and patience but my faith and testimony has been made sure. I know The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and those that follow its teachings will be greatly blessed and know for themselves that Jesus is the Christ. ❤
The question is what is "real intent" and accordingly a "sincere heart". I would say that real intent requires that one must accept that it is at least possible that The Book of Mormon is exactly what it proposes to be. If you are not open to the idea that what you believe now may be wrong, you lack that sincere heart and your prayers will be for naught. Or as my Father used to say facetiously, "Don't confuse me with facts I've got my mind made up."
Did you not watch the video? Supposedly there is nothing wrong with the Bible from the LDS point of view. Have you sincerely and with real intent considered what you believe in the BoM and D&C is wrong? Yes, let's truly look at the facts.
@ I’ve read and studied the Book of Mormon and D&C for most of my life, through childhood, with my family, through seminary, and through college. I have many fond memories of listening to BOM audio tapes tell the stories. However, when you begin to understand its composition, you start to realize the book is in no way close to the Bible, itnvolves over 40 authors from vastly different backgrounds (shepherds, kings, fishermen, prophets, and scholars), spanning over 1,500 years, and yet presents a unified and coherent message of redemption through Jesus Christ. Don’t take any of my word for it, research for yourself. But I’d also encourage you to take what you hear from Prof. Griffin and others “experts” from Scripture Central with a grain of salt, because while they’re certainly smart guys, they (like myself) are not scholars in ancient texts. It makes me sad to see LDS members have to so vigorous defend the BOM while downplaying or taking for granted, the Bible. There’s a rich Christian tradition dating back to the 1st century, with incredible preservation. The Bible is the most reliable record of that tradition, and it endures to this day.
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
Pastor Jeff, I am sure you do not have time to read all of these comments. I just want you to know that as I have followed many of your discussions, they have helped to revitalize in many ways the belief that I have in the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and it's doctrine. In this respect, you as a Christian minister, have helped to bring me closer to Christ. You have accomplished your life's mission in me and I would dare say--many other members of my church have experienced the same thing as they have listened to these discussions. We all are trying to bring people closer to Christ. I reverence you for your life's dedication to this common cause. I can honestly say that you have likely accomplished that better than many members of my church.
LDS missionaries generally depend upon Moroni 10:4-5 for conversion, but not everyone receives an answer. So another epistemology is offered in Alma 32, in which one is advised to learn by doing -- test the offered belief system.
Jeff! Kudo's to you for all you do in this LDS World you are exploring! As a member, I appreciate all you do for both the LDS community and the Protestant/Evangelical community by addressing everything about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. When I first joined this Church I was blasted, persecuted, and ridiculed. (I realize this happens on both sides.) Thank you for starting a movement within both communities of peacemaking, civility, and uplifting conversation. It's true that we can agree to disagree amicably. May you and your family continue having success and prospering. We need more voices of reason, even if we don't understand or agree!!! God bless you.
Having watched some of your videos going through the Book of Mormon (but not all), my impression is that the promise found in Moroni doesn't apply to your particular approach. Not saying God couldn't answer you in some miraculous way, but I don't think your approach qualifies for the promise. If I could summarize, I think your approach to the Book of Mormon was to try and understand as best you can the LDS people, their understanding, and their scripture, their view of typical Christian terminology, etc. in order to build bridges and find common ground. I think this is a legitimate and worthy endeavor, and I think you have been successful in receiving what you desired out of it. I don't think your approach was to genuinely question your own world view, explore the Book of Mormon with an open mind that it could indeed be inspired revelation and the word of God like the Bible. In my opinion, it is this type of "real intent" and "sincere heart" questioning that Moroni speaks to, and that you would receive the promised answer for. God is willing to answer the questions as we ask them, not force information onto us that we do not desire. And as far as I have seen, you have received according to the desires of your heart. I think your desires are good, and the outcome is positive, your desire for bridges to explore the commonalities and differences of our respective faiths, to have open-hearted dialogue and friendships, has been achieved. And I think if you opened your desire further to genuinely question and consider the possibility that the Book of Mormon is of God and Joseph Smith was indeed a restorationist prophet, I believe God is willing to answer whichever doors we are willing to knock on.
I completely agree 👍. The Lord waited a looooong time to give me the witness that I sought. But it was wisdom in Him for doing so. I value the witness much more now. And, He prepared me well.
You took my exact thoughts right out of my mind, and articulated it so well…I have no need to add anything additional. My hope is Pastor Jeff will read your comment and mine, and realize his approach has gotten him everything he desired. He openly admitted and I think even felt inclined prior to every Book of Mormon reading video, that he had no desire or intention to find out if the record was true, or historical, or divinely authentic…and that’s okay…but you can’t then turn around and try to make it seem like it should’ve been revealed to you that the record was of God. Brother Griffin provided a beautiful response to Pastor Jeff and did it in a way that was not pushy and non confrontational. Pastor Jeff was in my opinion visibly shook and bothered, as many mainstream evangelical Christians are when they don’t get the response they were expecting to their leading questions that inherently have a presupposition. I saw his pride kick in as Dr. Griffith kept responding, rather than humility. At this point, Pastor Jeff just doesn’t have eyes to see. He is blind and doesn’t realize it…and I’m not saying or meaning that in a pompous condescending manner. I am glad he finally stopped monologuing his Book of Mormon reading videos and finished up with Dr. Griffith. Made these last few so much better! As Moroni taught in chapter 7, the day of miracles have not ceased…and I have faith and hope and pray Pastor Jeff will approach the Book of Mormon one day with a desire and intent to find out if it is of God, and not just out of curiosity.
Very incisive. Add to this the challenge of knowing that if you get a witness that this scripture is true, and came through a prophet of restoration, then Christ really did appear to that prophet and set up his New Testament church again. That's bad news if you make your living preaching a different religion. It's even worse news if your plan was to find LDS in Utah living in the departure zone, and offer then an offramp to your church, you know, to save their souls. If that was the game plan for moving to Its and targeting this Hello Saints ministers, ain't no way you're letting anythjng like the Holy Ghost divert you from that mission statement. And there lies the rub if the undergirding intent is not pure like the lamb, but is sly like the wolf.
I have been waiting with baited breath for you to finish the Book of Mormon! Thank you, Pastor Jeff, for being willing to take this journey with us. I know many people who have had similar experiences with Moroni's challenge--not receiving the witness of the Holy Ghost that the book is true. I appreciate what Brother Griffin said about God working with people where they are. We understand not everyone has the same spiritual experiences. Personally, I didn't have a miraculous experience after following Moroni 10:4, either. The Holy Ghost did manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon to me, but it wasn't a one-and-done event like a lot of Latter-day Saints expect. Honestly, I've always felt that Moroni and Mormon were hoping that their writings would serve to convince readers that Jesus is the Christ or, if they already believe--like Pastor Jeff or Brother Griffin--their words would strengthen their faith in Christ. After watching your reactions, I think the Book of Mormon has strengthened your faith in Christ, whether you realize it or not. These videos have strengthened my faith, too. So thanks again for sharing with us
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
@@jonathangardner3121 no one in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints could be a member without the New Testament. Joseph Smith and his family studied the Bible looking for answers to their questions and concerns. They loved the Lord. The Book of Mormon was provided to Joseph and the world as an answer to his questions about which church to join. His concern was never about the validity of the Bible. It was about which denomination would bring him closer to God.
I’ve known people who’ve read the Book of Mormon and weren’t convinced it was true. But for one reason or another, they kept praying, reading, studying, pondering, fasting until they began to believe some parts of the Book of Mormon. All while the Adversary would throw his painful arrows, fighting the person every step of the way. Until the day came when they believed enough to get baptized and confirmed by the Holy Ghost. But then continued learning, asking questions & the process continues for all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We don’t have a perfect knowledge of things. But we have enough faith in Jesus Christ to take the next step, ever so slowly and for others, in more rapid succession. No two Latter-day Saints are alike. We strive to be meek, humble, teachable, willing to carry the small crosses God has asked us to carry. Some for a moments, others for a time and still others, their entire mortal lives. But not without help. Through faith and hope in Jesus Christ, we can all eventually do as He has taught us. We are all a work in progress. Thank you for this excellent video.
The BOM is why I believe the Bible. It clarifies points of doctrine, and without it you are left with a god that stoped speaking, and changed his pattern of prophets and continued revelation. With revelation you have eternal marriage, redemption of our dead, and more covenants to be a blessing for our lives .
God continues to speak to us through His Son (Hebrews 1:1-2), and through the Holy Spirit that indwells in us and sanctifies us (John 14:25-26). God didn't do away with His pattern of prophets and continued revelation, but fulfilled them in Christ, and promised a priesthood to all who believe and come unto Him (1 Peter 2:4-5; The Book of Hebrews). That is why Christ is not only the greatest prophet, but the final prophet, as all things foreshadowed in the old covenant are completed in Him in the new covenant. Those who are resurrected in the next life will not be married, because being in God's presence will be better (Matthew 22:29-30), and attempting to commune with the dead is known as necromancy, and is forbidden by God as an abomination (Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 18:10-12; Galatians 5:19-21).
@@DragnSlythe New Testament was written after the resurrection and more apostles were called as well. That is a blatant contradiction to your assumptions
@@DragnSlyRead 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 2:20, 4:11-14. Those passages say that God have to his church apostles and prophets and for a reason. Meaning, God’s only true church should have prophets and apostles even up to this day.
@@theephraimite God did not give any qualifications for His prophets, but rather elected them according to His own divine counsel, and the qualification for His apostles was to be an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ, as shown in the Book of Acts when Judas Iscariot was replaced by Matthias, after which they didn't replace any of the other apostles after they died. If God didn't provide any qualifications for His offices, then they are not to be continued and are a man-made construct. The only church offices we've been given qualifications for are for the pastor/elder/bishop/overseer/presbyter, and the deacon.
Congratulations finishing the Book of Mormon Pastor Jeff! I know your intent wasn't to find out if it's true or not, but rather to understand what we believe better. But I hope it's ok if I share that receiving a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon can depend on a few things, such as on God's timing, purposes, and one's openness to receiving it. Also, when the Holy Spirit does give one a witness from God, it can often be difficult to trust what God is trying to tell us over our own understanding and because of all it would mean and how it could change or affect our life. But it's only meant to help change it in good ways. As a companion and support to the Bible, it increases our testimony of Jesus Christ, helps us draw closer to God as it guides us and brings the Holy Spirit more in our lives as we read it and follow its teachings, and it increases our understanding. Also, there may be reasons God will delay sending a witness for different purposes God has for you. Or you may be prompted to do something specific that will help you to receive a witness if you desire it. I loved what this Brother said about God being patient and loving with us. This is very true. God looks at the sincerity of our hearts and meets us where we are to have a relationship with him. So no matter what happens Pastor Jeff, I respect that you have read it and were willing to learn and discuss it with members of our church. I hope you and your family will always have peace and joy (it helps that Joy is your wife 😉) and that God will be with you always!
I love this. Tyler explains so elegantly what I tried to convey so often when I served a full-time LDS mission. The part about Heaven and Hell..It makes sense that God would build His word little bit by little bit, preparing us for Christ’s second coming
Yes, and the degrees of heavenly glory are not in the Book of Mormon but in the New Testament and Doctrine and Covenants. 1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: Doctrine and Covenants 76:96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. 97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng
As a young missionary for the Church, my companion and I befriended a Protestant minister who would teach from the Book of Mormon in his weekly sermons. He said he knew it was true. He also said he could not leave his position with his church to fully embrace the Gospel for financial reasons.
I’ve known a Methodist minister who did the same. Very good man. Also an independent minister with a congregation who showed me his study of the BOM and “Jesus The Christ “. Good people with difficult dilemmas. Ive prayed for them and look forward to seeing them again in the Spirit World.
Same. Kind of. I can't leave the LDS faith and fully embrace the belief system I've been converted to because it would cost me my family, friends, assets, etc. It's difficult but I'm pretty easy going and cooperative so I make it work. Will do anything to keep my family together.
Your convertion to Jesus Christ should come to by His Holy Spirit not from your family. I am converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, even though my family is against it. The Book of Mormon helps me draw closer to the Savior Jesus Christ by keeping His commandments and serving His children. @@jonathangardner3121
I really appreciate you and your ministry, Pastor Jeff. I have learned so much from your videos. While we may disagree philosophically and doctrinally, I am happy to share your Christian identity. Thank you for helping me be a better, more dedicated brother-in-Christ with YOU! May God continue to bless you in your efforts to fight criticism with curiosity and bring people to Christ!
Outstanding conversation! Thank you! Please have Dr. Griffin again. I love your very insightful and deeply rooted questions, which are so honest-based. I can tell you two are legit friends, and that is wonderful.
Great discussion, with good points and counterpoints worth considering. Thanks, Pastor Jeff, for working through this. It has been good to think about.
Love your discussions with Tyler G. It’s helping me understand the mainstream Protestant/Evangelical beliefs so much better. Do more of these discussions with Tyler.
This is an awesome dialogue. Pastor Jeff has a very good spirit. To each individual, the Lord knows when they are ready to receive a witness of truth. From personal experience, I learned that the spirit can be poured out without measure where there is no doubt. It takes all the ingredients that Moroni outlines. We need to have real intent and be willing follow the Lord. My experience of conversion is something that I can never forget.
The only thing I would put to you is this. While reading The Book of Mormon, did you, at any time, feel a deeper connection to God? If so, then you have received an answer about the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon. Even though you may not agree with everything, you have found truth in it. Great video and conversations and questions. May God continue to bless you, in all things, as you continue to try to understand everything about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
@@kevins4254the truth in Math text book doesn’t bring you closer to Jesus Christ, and helps you serve His children by making a covenant to God to remember Him always, through visiting those who are in need, comfort those who need of comfort, and extending temporal helps to those who arw poor and the needy. The truth you can found on Math or Science will not bring you closer to Jesus Christ compared to applying to truth found in the Book of Mormon.
I thoroughly appreciated this video. The platform you’re using is fantastic. Engaging with people from different faith than yours while sharing a belief in Christ is truly valuable. In today's complex world, fostering understanding and building connections is essential. I was raised Catholic and embraced the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in my early twenties. I have many friends from diverse religious backgrounds. Promoting civility and love is what unites us, and it reflects the best way to embody the teachings of Jesus Christ. Great Job.
Thank you Pastor Jeff, I'm really greatfull to you for how you are approaching this. There is a warm place in my heart for you. The faith you show and the generosity you show to ours is very valuable to me. We may never agree on certain doctrines or ever have a perfect understanding of eachother, but what I do know is you embody the attirbute of charity, the pure love of Christ. And I am so greatfull for that. It is so refreshing to feel seen, heard, and respected as someone with faith by an evangelical. Not to be called names or told I'm debased or unable to think, reason, understand, or make faith decisions on my own. Thank you!
Professor Griffin! It’s been an outstanding experience to still be your students and the learning opportunities even after graduating from BYU. What a journey! Thank you! :D
I am impressed that Jeff has read the Book of Mormon. It should be exciting to recognize another witness to the reality of God and his covenants with us. Jeff also made it clear he is not doing this to convert or change his current faith but to understand the LDS faith better. Which he has done. I doubt he will get an answer or a spiritual whiteness to the BOM or LDS faith unless the purpose of his study changes. Seems like a great guy! Good luck on your journey Jeff!
Pastor Jeff, I am impressed that you have invested so much time and effort to study and learn about the Church of Jesus Christ with a curious and open mind, even while acknowledging that you have a different theological view of God. Your approach to this endeavor is so interesting and I have appreciated hearing your perspective of the various topics. As you are just finishing a reading of the Book of Mormon I am wondering if you have an opinion of how this complex, doctrinally deep history of an ancient peoples came to be, including the details of information of names, Semitic language similarities, pretty detailed stuff. Do you think that Joseph Smith, a 20 year old farm boy was able to fabricate this book in approximately 3 months, or did it come from somewhere else? The book is either an incredibly detailed fabrication or it is true. If it’s a fabrication, he sure went to a lot of trouble, and must have done a great deal of research to get so many complex issues so complete. It is an interesting book.
Tyler Griffin is a class act. I watch his Scripture Insights on Scripture Central on YT, and I have benefitted greatly by his sharing of his faith and knowledge after I’ve read and prayed over the scriptures he’s covering each week. I can’t think of anyone better for Pastor Jeff to talk to about his thoughts in his reading of the Book of Mormon.
24:22 With all respect Jeff, you never approached this with a sincere heart. You stared this segment off saying that you aren't looking for greater light and truth. You believe you have found all yhere is to find. If that us the case you cannot ask with a sincere heart because your not seeking truth. You are seeking understanding, but of the lds culture, not Gods truth in the Book of Mormon and other revealed scripture. I am not trying to judge your intent past anything you have stated yourself.
I understand your frustration. But I think that you're a little hard on Pastor Jeff. He asked Dr. Griffin a couple of times WHAT further light or knowledge or understanding of God he would gain by making more covenants. I think Pastor Jeff very honestly just doesn't get it. It's hard to explain to someone else but there is a LOT to gain from the restored church of Jesus Christ. He just can't see it yet. And that's perfectly understandable and normal.
I have to agree. I've been watching you reading this book all year, and although I really appreciate all the times you've been inviting, kind, and a defender of the LDS people, you have also been critical of the doctrine in the Book of Mormon. It does not seem like you have been open to the possibility that this book might actually be true.
@@brotherskeeper2012 I felt the same way. I stopped watching for a while and unsubscribed after Pastor Jeff's 3rd Nephi video. That one bothered me so much! It's just that Pastor Jeff didn't say that he was praying to know if the Book of Mormon was true or not. He said that he prayed to see any truth. That's a different thing. Many people balk at keeping the word of wisdom ( just as an example) until they understand why it matters or why it's relevant to them. I see Pastor Jeff as being in this stage. He's maybe trying to figure out not if the book is entirely true, but if anything about it is relevant to him. That's just my perception. I could be wrong. But him praying to see ANY truth is a step in the right direction, imo.
@@brotherskeeper2012 please I'd love to know your thoughts: how can you fault him being critical? Why would he need to pray, to ask if it's true, if he can see the differences and what's untrue? If he knows the Bible and sees something that doesn't align with the Bible it's fair to point it out without having to pray to ask if it's true, because that Bible has already revealed the truth. And you might say "but it's more truth!" And I get that but it's not just that there's "more", it's that some things are just completely different. Example: the levels of heaven. The Bible doesn't teach different levels of heaven. You might go to 1 Cor 15:40-48 and try to justify it but Paul is talking about how just as there are different bodies of flesh between the animals, there are different bodies in the "heavens", meaning outer space, and how they are a different kind. He says all that to say that when we go to heaven, where God is, we will have new bodies. Nothing about that has anyone concluded to mean different levels of heaven until Joseph Smith came in. Another difference is that it teaches that there will be marriage in heaven. When Jesus himself says that in heaven no one will be given to marriage. Neither will they marry nor given to marriage Mathew 22:30 But I'd love to hear anyones input on this! Thank you for reading
@Ihayden thanks for your interesting comment. I appreciate hearing different interpretations of those scriptures. I think you hit the nail on the head about why Pastor Jeff isn't necessarily praying about if the B of M is true or not. People don't seek knowledge about things they are sure of. Conversion is about the brain as well as the heart. I'm hoping that at the very least, Pastor Jeff will start thinking about the doctrines that he has heard and whether or not they resonate with his reason and intellect. 😊
During my mission, I came across some who sid they read and prayed, according to Moroni's promise, and said that they did get an answer that the Book of Mormon was true. As a missionary, it's a difficult thing to face. But I stand by what I told the few that made this claim. I told them that it was clearly a conversation between that person and God. While I could speculate, only God knows the true intent of the person praying, and the person praying knows their true intents. It's not my place to make a judgment on that intimate conversation with God. As a missionary, my role was to teach doctrines and make invitations. Now as a regular member, my role is to love and invite. While I would have loved people to join our religious community, it's not my place to coerce or shame people into joining and making sacred promises with God.
You deny yourself of ungodliness by denying, or refusing inclinations that you have that are not Godly, thus through your own commitment, and through the power of Christ become more Godly. Make sense?
Some people are too prideful to take the leap of faith necessary in Moroni's promise. But God is bound by eternal principles and cannot take your agency. You are free to believe & spiritually grow or not believe & stay where you are. Unfortunately this pastor has decided to stay where he is. God is still good & one has to respect this man's decision.
There is a Baptist minister in Independence, Missouri, who recognizes the Book of Mormon as the Word of God and preaches from it to his congregation. He remains a Baptist to this day. So you can know the Book of Mormon to be the word of God and still be an Evangelical minister.
I recently found a booklet titled 'The Gut Microbiome and the Book of Mormon'. It focuses on Alma 46:40 and is a fascinating, short read. There are aspects of that verse that were essentially unknown until the 1990s.
“Real intent” means you truly intend to follow through with what’s revealed to you. So that would mean being baptized into the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if God revealed to you that it is true. But that would take a lot of humility.
Dr Griffin is a phenomenal teacher. I felt edified just listening to his explanations. And props to Pastor Jeff for demonstrating respectful curiosity. Will be curious to learn if you ever get a hankering to keep studying from its pages in the future now that you’ve completed it. 😊 Is it an open and shut case? Or just… an open one. Thanks Pastor Jeff for all your efforts!
A mormon historian once said. the book of Mormon is a hidden golden gem burried underneath a huge pile of Pig crap due to church history and LDS leaders messing everything up. The book of Mormon is soooo good but people will not even read it because of all the problems with the LDS church. ANd I agree. I love the Book of Mormon but im so dissapointed in the ignorance and stupidity of our leaders.. The Gospel is True but men abuse power!! Christ is King.
I absolutely love it when you have this guest on and discuss such important questions with him. His insights and explanations are so inspiring and helpful. I can tell that the Holy Spirit really works through him. Thank you so much!!
For me another huge part of receiving answers from God includes first seeking the principles or gifts of humility and meekness as mentioned at the end of Moroni 8 and in the New Testament. Becoming as a little child helps us be teachable- we have to lay aside our pride, our worldly biases and what we think we “know” and ask with real intent. We must demonstrate our sincerity by really desperately wanting it- not giving up on getting an answer. Then we must knock- that is; commit to receiving God’s will for us and really truly acting on it. I have learned for myself that God does not answer me if in my pride…I have no intention of acting on what answer comes to me. So for pastor Jeff, if God gave him an answer that the Book of Mormon was true, then what? So what? Would he just go on about his previous way of life? Or would it mean a new spiritual door has opened and a paradigm shift has occurred and God has been revealed in a new and more miraculous manner? What courage would be required of him? It can mean some huge changes for any one of us- it can mean more questions and a need for more answers. Many people fear these things to where faith is no longer part of the equation. I know for myself by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true - in that it is exactly what it says it is. I received a powerful assurance of its truthfulness and I get that same assurance and feeling of pure Christlike love. I know it was prepared and brought forth miraculously by the power of God to establish truth and testify of Christ and His central role in bringing us His redemptive power and salvation. I know Joseph Smith- an unlearned and weak farm boy- was called to be God’s living prophet and his story to me truly demonstrates the power of God. I know there can be only one true church, of one faith, one doctrine and one baptism directed by one Lord who’s Spirit unifies us as one just as Christ prayed it should be!
What about the ones that know by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is false, that they received a powerful assurance that it is false and they get that same assurance and feeling of pure Christlike love. I have lived around the world for the past 30 years, and I have seen the exact same conviction of something being true for all religions. The heart as we learn in Jeremiah 17:9 "is deceitful above all things". What you are explaining here is called Emotional Reasoning. Emotional reasoning is saying because I felt x, y must be true.
@ the Holy Ghost works according to the law of witnesses in the Bible. Christ’s words and those of His servants are also witnesses. By two or three witnesses, truth can be unquestionably established. “12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. 13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. 14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil. 15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.”
@@carllundberg7073 So when you received an answer there was 2 or 3 witnesses that also received that answer for you and verified that it was true? Also by these same verses it also shows that what Pastor Jeff believes in is also of God. Most Christian religions inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ.
@@Zez88 as long as those Christian ministers are ordained “as was Aaron” by Moses to the priesthood by the laying on of hands under Prophetic Keys. Because that is how Jesus also commissioned and ordained His 12 apostles - they were called and ordained, and they likewise ordained Mathias, Paul and the 70 elders and so on. And so long as they teach the Doctrine of Christ as he revealed it without the interpolations of men. Only then can it “continually” invite and entice us to be of “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.”
In thinking about the question Pastor Jeff had about what The Book of Mormon adds to the Bible; I think one important thing is the truth that God continues to speak to us through a prophet. For a Latter Day Saint it is evidence of Joseph Smith’s prophetic call, if nothing else.
I love the Bible and Book of Mormon. I’m so grateful for the restoration and what it has given to me. I’ve never received an answer on my knees but living it, studying it and more. I love being LDS.
I was 11 reading the children's version of the BOM over a few months with my mom, when it got to 3 Nephi 11 as God the Father introduced His Son, what happened has no words to truly make any sense but I was in an existence encompassing this earth and beyond this earth. In this existence God the Holy Ghost did something with my physical and spiritual being totally consuming it bearing an eternal witness with such a profoundness that Jesus Christ is The Eternal Savior. Just carry on, nothing wrong with where you're at!
@@gbengoosewuru4139 Illustrated Stories from the Book of Mormon (16 Vols. plus Study Guide) which is sold on EBAY / Hammerhead 111 Books $95.00. It is no longer in print. I see others selling the set as well for less, good luck
Great video, thanks. These are actually the only ones I watch, when you have a member of the church on to help explain that side of things. I learned a lot from Tyler. As far as the whole Moroni's promise not working, I've approached 'real intent' with other questions for myself. What does it mean if it's true? What would I have to give up? What in my life would change? Am I willing to accept all of that? Answers to those have helped me gauge where I'm at on my intent, and if I'm open to change or deeper commitment.
For Latter-day Saints, a testimony is not derivative (extracted ) from either the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but something experienced directly. Accepting the Book of Mormon is a humble acknowledgement of how little knowledge we currently possess. What we know is finite; what we expect to know is by comparison infinite. Latter-day Saints believe that God - our Father in Heaven - possesses all knowledge and is anxious to develop each of us to the degree we are receptive and obedient to what we are already given. Line upon line, precept upon precept. To reject progression is, literally, to dam ourselves from accepting further enlightenment, and choosing to stop drawing nearer to God.
Pastor Jeff-Thank you for this series. When you first brought on LDS apologists, I was annoyed. But now I see the wisdom in it. It allows for “steel manning” to a very high level. As an ex-LDS who still is following in the Way of Jesus (mainline Protestant in my case), I appreciate you asking these tough questions. To me, it is very clear that although the Book of Mormon indeed “has so many awesome parts,” it is not a real ancient record of ancient America. Once you get outside the “Mormon bubble,” it’s incredibly obvious. God bless.
For those who don't live in Utah, it is almost a natural thing to learn about other faiths. But other faiths also are pretty closed mouthed about their religions to where it was uncomfortable for all involved. The two topic to be avoided at gathering are politics and religion, as people are passionate about what they embrace.
BTW Utah Mormons (Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) are a unique bunch of believers/people. I say that as a convert in 1774 born and raised on So Ca.
But Jeff, you say in the beginning of this video you are not reading it for purposes of converting. IMO that is that same as reading for a purpose of not recieving an answer, just my 2cents. Those that are ready for the next ‘precept’ will recieve an answer. One thing too, its not always instant, but it will come!
Yes. See time stamp 1:48. However, Our Father in Heaven through Jesus Christ has provided Pastor Jeff the insight to move to Utah, associate with the Restored Church, and hopefully line by line help Jeff and his lovely wife feel the spirt on occasion. With God all is possible.
@rickyricky4738 No. It's the very same concept and condition laid out in James 1:5. If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not. BUT LET HIM ASK IN FAITH. NOT WAVERING. V. 7-- for let not that man think that he shall receive ANY THING of the Lord.
Someone might believe that they received an answer that it wasn't true. But from my perspective, that answer can't have come from the Holy Spirit. It would be akin to someone saying that the Holy Spirit testified that there is NO God. 1) I KNOW of a certainty that there IS a God. 2) the Holy Spirit would never, and can never, witness a thing that is NOT true.
This is one of the keys to receiving an answer promised by Moroni. Pres. Henry B Eyring in the October 2021 general Conference taught “Hearing that voice will come from our faith in Him. With sufficient faith, we will ask for direction with the intent to go and do whatever He asks.” We must be willing to act on what the the Lord teaches us, otherwise why would he answer?
I prayed to receive a manifestation when I was about eight years old and nothing happened. It wasn't until I was 18 that God choose to answer my prayer and answer it He did! My wife studied and prayed about the Book of Mormon for a couple of years before receiving her answer.
I don’t pretend to know Pastor Jeff’s heart, but it has seemed to me all along that he already has his mind made up that we are wrong. Can you pray sincerely to know if it is true if you already have your mind made up? Is your intent real if you don’t intend to change based on the answer He could potentially give? From my point of view, it seems the only answer found is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not exactly the same as evangelical Christianity, which we already knew. I do appreciate how gracious and kind pastor Jeff has been.
Great questions! Moroni 10:3-5 is one of my favorite scriptures. I combine it with James 1:5-7 and John 8:31-32. You have a great relationship with your wife. Your children are blessed for it.
It's really important to do what you're doing Jeff. I applaud you and know that God knows you, your thoughts, your heart and is guiding you on this journey of understanding. Thank you, always, for your courtesy, respect and honesty. 😊
Asking what the Book of Mormon offers beyond the bible is a strange question to me. The question isn’t about completeness, it’s about a living God that can still speak. I wonder if people during Isaiah’s day wondered why Isaiah’s writings were necessary?
@@brannonburton5494 Christian’s absolutely believe God is still speaking but we don’t canonize these writings. We are to test everything because the Spirit of God dwells inside of us. We no longer need a prophet like the Old Testament. Jesus is our priest, prophet and savior. Jesus told us He is the vine and we are the branches. We need only to abide in Him and as all believers do this we grow up in Christ who is the head of the church.
I cannot begin to say how much I admire you. To read someone else’s scriptures and to disagree but be so respectful and Christ like. We need 25 more pastor Jeff’s in the world. Thanks for helping us all get along.
Pastor Jeff, I enjoyed this video! So glad you have done the last several books with Tyler. I hope that if you read the Pearl of Great Price or the D&C that you will include Tyler. Maybe if he has time he can go over the earlier Book of Mormon books with you. I remember you having questions. (Not that you need to re-do the videos or anything.) Maybe the time isn't right for you to get an answer about the Book of Mormon. Maybe you are doing so much good with the bridge building that God would prefer for you to keep doing it. God sees the big picture. We don't. I am glad to hear that you see good and truth in the Book of Mormon even if you don't accept all of it yet.
I love the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible. I believe God has an endless amount of knowledge to share, to the degree that we are willing to receive more knowledge. I will never "put my hands over my ears" and tell God, "Stop! Don't tell me anything else! We already have everything we need to hear!" That would be silly, but also arrogant -- for me to tell God that he doesn't have my permission to reveal anything new to mankind? That's why we say, in Article of Faith #9, "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God " God Himself has said, "There is no end to my works, neither to my words."
As Pastor Jeff seeks to understand LDS so he can further that understanding to his own congregation, he is in turn helping LDS to see into his own and his congregation's beliefs. Mutually we all benefit. Thanks to you and your channel.
Jeff is reading to understand a false book, not to know whether it is the truth. His mind is closed to that possibility. He has stated exactly that on several occasions. His rigorous training in using the Bible as the ultimate source of truth and his dogmatic adherance to modern Christian assumptions makes it impossible for him to even consider that the Book of Mormon could be true. If we're not humble enough to say "I dont know everything, God teach me and I will accept the truth regardless of the consequences," then we have closed our hearts to the spirit of God.
Amen. If God were to reveal greater light & knowledge to folks with a closed mind due to pride or presupposition, it would only heap condemnation on their heads for not taking action on the truths revealed to them. Rather, God respects the true desires of our hearts. If we want greater light and knowledge and have the faith to follow through on those revelations, God will provide it. Otherwise, he will keep the heavens shut if our hearts do not desire it.
Dear Pastor Jeff, I’ve been watching your videos from the beginning. I’m impressed with you and your wife as being very sincere Christians who believe in Christ and love the Bible. Latter-day Saints have been intrigued by your reasonably open mindedness and your honest curiosity compared to many other evangelicals. Moroni gives one very important key to conversion and testimony. He mentions “real intent“. There’s no way that another person can judge your real intent, but I would ask you, what do you think that means? If I were in your shoes, it would mean that I would be ready and willing to give up my pride and my profession. Once I received this answer, I would have to accept that I would no longer be a Pastor earning my living preaching the gospel, but I would have to give all that up to become an Elder without the pomp and prestige that comes with being a Pastor. I wouldn’t be honored and praised and admired on a stage with lights and music and all the recognition that goes with giving a charismatic sermon every week. The question is, are you willing to give all that up and all the money that you’re making on this TH-cam channel which has to be pretty substantial at this point. Because once you join the church, the lights will fade, the attention will be less as you fall in with the normal rank and file membership of the church, which doesn’t come with a lot of recognition. Are you ready to give all that up and become a regular disciple of Christ, being a small part of a great effort, led by Apostles and Prophets? This is what “real intent“ is all about. Could you do it? Only you can answer that question.
The problem with Moroni's promise is that you have to have an open heart and are willing to ACT upon the answer you receive. Would you be willing to be baptized, give up being a pastor if the answer is that is is true?
@@rickyricky4738 For sure God will always reveal truth. It's hard for me to imagine someone being told that the book of mormon is not true because I receive a spiritual witness nearly every time I read from the book. But, who am I to judge God. The Principle remains James 1:5 ask God and receive knowledge (with the caveat that it will be in God's way and timing).
I think that Pastor Jeff really would be willing to give up everything to follow where the Lord led him. I don't think it's a matter of action. I get the feeling that it's more about seeking a sign. Pastor Jeff sounds like he wants the Lord to show him some sort of sign if there's any truth lying around. But, the Lord doesn't work that way most of the time. The witness comes AFTER the trial of your faith. I've experienced that in my own life.
@@maxstooksberry9458 for a latter-day saint, we define eternal life differently than Pastor Jeff likely does. As far as his definition goes, he maybe doesn't need anything else. But personally, I would greatly lament the loss of the Book of Mormon and all the restoration scriptures. That would be an unbearable loss!
Pastor Jeff, thank you so much for this wonderful video series! I've been following you journey for over a year, but have only commented once or twice. I see you've arrived at the "Where the rubber meets the road" scripture (Moroni 10:4) LOL. First off, every member, whether born in an LDS family or a convert, struggles with that script just as you are. "What does this say about me?" Is a question all of us face. The advice I think most of us would give you is, "Trust in God, keeping doing good, obey His Word as best you understand it, and remember that the only opinions that matter are those of He and His Son, and He will help you with the rest." POV: My extended family on my mother's side are/were devote Southern Baptists and Church of Christ folks. When a few of us started converting to the LDS Church things quickly became very "complicated." I'm sure you understand. Later, when a Jewish acquaintance of mine converted to Christianity, I realized that his journey, struggle, and family challenges were very similar to what we went through. Further, the way he expanded his faith to include the New Testament and Christianity was very similar to how we expanded ours to include the Book of Mormon and the Restored Gospel. God Speed!
Before Jacob received a blessing for his seed he wrestled with God for it to the point that he got hurt. Usually people don’t receive strong revelation unless they feel they need to know the answer desperately… Life being in danger, truly worried about their spiritual/physical welfare etc.
As once an evangelical but now LDS I can testify that the Bible holds the Word of God and invites the Holy Spirit, but it is the Book of Mormon that has pierced my heart numerous times and the Holy Spirit burnt it in my heart that it is true. A miracle moment of perfect union with God has resulted. I understand it’s a stumbling block for you Pastor Jeff, as it once was for me. But perseverance, pure intent and submission to God brought these miracles of witness.
He isnt looking for the truth. He looking to prove the BOM wrong
Reading The Book of Mormon with Pure intent, Like A Child (a first grader - ignoring first those names and places..) Would make it Simple and Easier ...
During My Time in The Mission Field - interested People Would Recognized it and Acknowledge The Book of Mormon BUT its The Lifestyle Change that hinders them
To A Clergyman its the Finances, the "Fame and Honor", to A Business Person its "Time Commitment (3+hrs and Tithing plus Volunteering or Home Teaching (Now its Ministering) To Most its The Word of Wisdom or Law of Chastity
There are Those Who would acknowledge The Book of Mormon is True BUT They Cannot DO the Repentance Process 100% to be Baptized
And Those Who Are Courageous Enough - To ForeGo Those Things - Been Baptized Stayed Devoted or ...
@@janeeyre8241 if the BoM did, what the Bible couldn't do, then it's not the Holy Spirit but a different kind of spirit.
@@Ihayden That’s a long used Christian objection born out of fear. I’ve walked both yet you have not. It’s the same God and the same Spirit and you need not fear it. If the LDS Church is good enough for God then it’s good enough for me. At the end of the day He will be my judge. And for that I am forever grateful. God bless you for your righteous concern. But may I let you know it is misplaced 😊
@@janeeyre8241 thank you for your reply! Believe me, as my response was not from a place of fear. I do not fear the BoM or the spirit it possesses. Yes we will both be judged by God. That's why I thank him for Jesus as he fulfilled the law on my behalf and paid the penalty for my sins and now I don't count on my own righteousness but that of Christ and I will be able to rejoice in the full presence of God praising His name forever
I grew up a Catholic. I had a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Bible was the word of God when I began to study with the missionaries at age 32. They told me to read Moroni 10:3-5. I did. But I received no witness. On the day of my baptism in 1977 I did not know if the Book of Mormon was the word of God. I did not know if Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I did not know if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was what it had been represented to me as - the true Church of Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost had not witnessed to me of the truthfulness of any of these things. But I was baptized anyway. I was willing to put these things to the test. I started attending all meetings. I received the priesthood. I paid tithes. I accepted callings and assignments. My knowledge of the truthfulness of the Restoration did not come to me in a recognizable flash of revelation, but rather it distilled upon my soul as the dews from heaven (D&C 121:45). It was only much later that I understood how it was that I received a certain testimony of this work: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:16-17). I came to know by doing the will of my Father.
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
I LOVE THIS, JOHN!!!!!! Faith is an ACTION word and you took action! What an amazing story and testimony of God's will and God's timing! I appreciate this, Brother!
@@johngreene7790 that is amazingly courageous! I fear that someone in Jeff’s position would have a huge upward battle if he chose to move on to follow the restored gospel . His friends, family, career, and possibly his wife could all be lost.
@@jonathangardner3121 correct . The New Testament is vital for all mankind to understand. As is the Old Testament. Without which we wouldn’t know the plan of salvation.
@@melanieking1172 Actually, the OT could be wrong and the NT still true. In fact, most of the OT probably is false. A worldwide flood killing babies in the Australian bush who received no warning of anything and knew nothing of the God of Middle Eastern tribes? Changing languages in a way that we know is wrong due to studying how languages and linguistics started and have worked and evolved over time? And on and on.
And the NT is on shaky ground as well. As ALL of it was written AFTER Jesus's life by non-eyewitnesses. Stories/legends spread/grew by word of mouth for years beforehand/before any writing of it took place.
In the case of certain books like The Book of John, it was written DECADES after the fact and not by John, but by people who never even met Jesus. And The Book of John conveniently expands on the earlier, more rudimentary and vaguer story of The Book of Mark (which also wasn't written by Mark).
And even of those writings, the earliest document we have is the size of a credit card from 100 years after the fact and is a copy of previous copies, not original. And guess how many times the testaments (again, that we have NO originals of) were re-copied? A LOT.
Simple biblical scholarship. Classes on it should be required imo. BYU professors such as Thomas Wayment know this stuff, he could teach it.
(Jesus couldn't be bothered to write and ensure the preservation of anything himself? The most important of all messages that our eternities ride upon? Nothing? But now he tells us to journal our less-significant lives? Do as I say, not as I did, I guess. ...Or humans are just making things up as we go along? Building on the mythology. To cope with life/death, etc.)
Sorry this is so long.
Well done champ. Reading some one else’s holy book to have an informed opinion and respectfully disagree is one of the most open minded bridge building exercises one can do. Merry Christmas to you and your wife, my brother in Christ.
So well stated! Thank you for your thoughtless response. ❤
@@saragroves4103 thoughtful?
Misinformed and thoughtless.
Hmmm...well done to those of us that followed the religion for 30 plus years and finally realized it cannot be true and respectfully disagree with you...or are we still what your prophet calls "lazy learners"?
@@neilsharp4989 Did you realize it, or did the Holy Spirit tell you it wasn't true?
I haven’t heard that for over 20 years, i knew exactly what that was when you repeated the sacrament prayer. I actually had no idea it was in the BOM. Although I am a Biblical Christian now, I am reading through the Book of Mormon for the first time. I am in Alma.
God bless you.
God loves all who love Him, who love goodness, whether the light of Christ in them is a flickering in the wind of other doctrines (Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Sikh, Ba'hai...) or whether they know Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. Their Christ, your Christ, our Christ as people of planet earth throughout the ages. Praise Elohim and Jehovah for the Great Plan of Creation, Salvation, Happiness and Exaltation, through faith, learning, agency, and an infinite and merciful Atonement.
@jessicajeff- When Jesus Christ appeared to and ministered to the Nephites after His resurrection, it was Jesus Christ who gave the words in the sacramental prayers to remember His body and blood.
@@jessicajeffs293 Welcome to the LDS Farris wheel of personal worthiness. Let me save you years of difficulties and tell if you have ANY hope as a member, you’ll have obey ALL commandments. If you can’t do that then you won’t be able to obtain LDS eternal life, repentance, “Grace”. Etc…
My husband, when on a mission for the church, prayed to know whether or not the Book of Mormon was true. He read through the whole thing and still didn't have a witness. He then, in his second time of reading it, noticed the verse before Moroni 10:4 which reads:
3 "Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts."
After reading this verse, he saw almost like a vision or panaramic view, instantly, of how God had mercifully ministered to our world, starting from the creation to the present. He, then, instantly realized the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon! This has continued to be a great gift to him, to our family and in his ministry to others.
This is so often overlooked. Yet it is the key to understanding why the Book of Mormon was brought forth. We are to recognize how merciful God has been to all of his children. Pray to recognize that mercy, and seek a testimony of that . Testimonies come line upon line for most people.
So you believe in Young Earth creation in Jackson County?
@@Pay-It_ForwardI’m not familiar with that verse in the Book of Mormon. Please share the chapter/verse?
Really powerful doctrine is taught in Moroni 8. Baptism of children goes against the practice in so many Christian faiths. Yet makes no sense when we read Moroni 8.
@@rcckf Adam & Eve are mentioned 26 times in the BofM. But Jackson County as Adam-ondi-Ahman, the place where Adam dwelt is D&C. Thing is Earth life didn't start 6K years ago & didn't originate where Joe claims.
One of the reasons some do not receive an answer is because there's still some resistance on the implications. If one receives a witness that the Book of Mormon is also true then that would mean Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and if he was a prophet of God than the church that He restored is truly Christ's true church on the Earth. When one is not ready to make that big life change it would make sense that they may not receive an answer right away. It takes time for the spirit to work on our hearts. sometimes we're not ready for the answers God has for us.
And of course, one must admit, if honest, that one reason folks (in fact, numerically most folks who've encountered LDS theology reject it...) don't "receive an answer" is because the proposition is false. If you can't admit that possibility, then I would actually question the sincerity of your claim to have received an answer.
The inverse is also correct.
@@rodneyjamesmcguireI was once evangelical and now I’m LDS. I can assure you we do receive a true witness from God that the Book of Mormon is His Word. I had already felt the Holy Spirit as evangelical. It was on steroids when I became LDS and remains a constant miracle 27 years later. The Church is true!
@@rodneyjamesmcguire of course thats true, but being honest I just love the book of Mormon and I have a witness of its truth. If other people arent "shown by the holy ghost its truth" just like with the bible. even if you don't feel the spirit doesn't make it true or false. Its just asking you to do this as an act of faith to God, to lean on Gods understanding and not your own. I think that's really what it means to pray and ask about whether its true but that's just my opinion
@@janeeyre8241 And many, many more people would say the opposite to what you claim.
This is why I think it's a terrible means to know truth.
Why believe you over them? Them over you? Third option...both wrong...?
@@SunRezGreen The verse says to ask whether it is NOT true, btw...
You're right, feelings, no matter how personally profound and important, don't tell us what is true, or not.
If that were the case, then we'd side, unequivocally with the "not true" side, as there's vastly more folks that have rejected the LDS theology than have accepted it.
Seems strange that a "loving God" wouldn't make it a bit more obvious that it's true, to his children.
I wish all people were as kind and loving and sensible as Dr. Griffin. You answered Jeff's thoughtful questions with humility but with real conviction. I appreciated that Pastor Jeff was honest about his feelings and was comfortable enough to bring up his heartfelt concerns about the Book of Mormon. I think asking honest, well formulated questions helps us find and hold to truth. I fear that so many of any faith just follow what they been taught as children and never really ask themselves the hard questions. If a religion can't hold up to tough scrutiny, I'd be looking elsewhere. I applaud Jeff for asking hard questions and I suspect he asks hard questions of his own beliefs. At 72 yo I hope to grow up to have the meekness of Dr. Griffin. With each remark you made I could feel your love for Jeff and your sincerity and your conviction of the truthfulness of what you taught. I really enjoyed this conversation and felt inspired to embrace more of the qualities of Christ. Thank-you.
I’m 17 and just finished the BOM for the first time. So happy you got to read this wonderful book
Jeff ! After I have read the book of Mormon. I would re-read the Old and the New Testament. I noticed something special! I saw them in a different light ! They became clearer to me! I began to understand what was being taught in the Old and New Testament! I hope and pray that this will happen for you too!
Yes, the Book of Mormon is “another” testament-witness-of Jesus Christ.
Vice versa too, after reading the Old Testament I understand the writing style like...way more easily :)
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
If the Holy Ghost can tell you it's true, then the Holy Ghost can tell you where Zarahemla was. Where was it? Thanks.
@@jonathangardner3121 Certainly can. It has impressed me lately that the Book of Mormon are people kind of encouraging us to "believe in Christ". Maybe the Lord knew we'd need a little extra encouragement? Peace and hugs! :)
At time stamp 1:48 Pastor Jeff explains his motivation for reading the Book of Mormon. This explanation probably reveals why it may still be awhile yet for Pastor Jeff before the promise of Moroni is felt.
@@xrpreacher6000 It reminds me of I Isaiah or of Christ when speaks in parable. When you receive more light, you are then held to more accountability.
100% agree! Pastor Jeff has told his audience many times his " real intent" behind reading the Book Of Mormon, which is many good things, but unfortunately not the most important reason for reading it and pondering it, which is to hear the voice of Lord, come to better know Him, His Gospel, enter into a convental relationship with Him, and in His own way and time carry the message of its truthfulness to his heart by the power of the Holy Ghost!! One of the key ingredients is " Real Intent" along with sincerity, humility and faith in Christ!! Jeff, I believe you are on a path that will lead you and your family to this knowledge and blessing someday!
BINGO! His intent isn't to find truth but to understand another faith. Let this be a reminder to all of us to always be open to the Holy Spirit no matter what.
Yes! He is reading it to pick it apart, not to know if it is true. Your heart opens up differently when you invite the spirit to teach you. Jeff is focused on his own 'teaching'.
@@micahstubblefield yes! Unless ofcourse it goes against our own faith then we will just think they are not praying correctly, being deceived, missing something and have a secret agenda to keep them away from our real truth.
Wow, I learned a lot from this video. Thank you for making it and thank you Pastor Jeff for asking those questions. I've read the Book of Mormon a couple of times and now I see it in a little bit of a different light thanks to the clear answers from Tyler. My testimony has increased.
When I finished reading the Book of Mormon about 12 years ago and arrived to Moroni's promise, I didn't receive an answer directly when praying. I did feel strongly that I should keep on reading. A few weeks later, while in 2nd Nephi, it suddenly became very important to me to know for a certainty if the Book of Mormon was true, and when I prayed, it became almost instantaneously clear to me that it was true, I felt the Holy Ghost's warmth in my heart like never before and knew it was true. Our spirituality is a personal journey, and the Almighty is wise in guiding us to the truth.
2 nephi 5 struck you as true? Not racist myth? The science pointing against Mormonism doesn’t matter? The abuse of Mormonism don’t matter?
I had a very similar experience... I didn’t receive any answer the first time reading the Book of Mormon but when I came to Alma 30:44 on my second go-around I got the overwhelming impression that I was asking for an answer that I already had. I go back to that experience often when I’m struggling to find answers and remember that sometimes the answer is already right in front of me.
@@timmiestabrnak There are very similar verses to that in the bible the word darkness and light in those verses are talking about symbolic light and dark not skin tone. its willful ignorance to take these verses out of there context. the lamanites were cursed with a mark of darkness symbolic of the evil in there hearts. lol and the nephites weren't white either they were also brown they came from the middle east into the promised lands of america.
@@timmiestabrnak You have no idea how any of this matters so little in the grand scheme of things.
I know the Book of Mormon to be true, and the gospel has made me a better man. If it isn't true, the Church will ultimately fail, if it is, then your conclusions are mistaken. Anything else is of little consequence
@@Nicole-en1km Thank you for sharing your experience!
I’ve tuned in to almost all of the videos. Love it!! Whether you believe in the message of the Book of Mormon or not, you’ve been a missionary for God to the world with this platform. I appreciate your entire effort…sincerely.
@@kni00002 i agree
I read the Book of Mormon, my heart was very Hard AGINST the Book of Mormon, I fasted and Prayed to God to show me this book is not true…the Power of this book Did surround me and my Heart… this was Powerful, I didn’t believe in Joe Smith or his story, with a hard heart that soon was turned to Mush by the Holy Ghost! And I knew THIS BOOK WAS TRUE! The spirit let me know so powerful, that if I was to deny this truth, then my soul would weep with sorrow! And I knew without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God.. the scales of unbelief had fallen from my eyes I could not deny the light of this truth!
I love your testimony. 😊 people outside of the church like to sometimes claim we have confirmation bias. But they don't realize that many of us actively didn't want the church to be true for myriad reasons. It's not confirmation bias. It really is the Holy Spirit testifying of truth.
One truth is clearly undeniable. The Book of Mormon is a powerful witness of Jesus Christ our Savior.
@gwengold8154 yeah confirmation bias my foot, as a young man I knew if I was told the Book of Mormon was true ud be taking a vow of celibacy on steroids for two years in potentially a foreign country when I could easily stay home, date like normal and finish school quicker.
This is why the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. If it’s not true, then nothing else is either.
But if it IS true, then Joseph Smith IS a prophet, then Russell M. Nelson is a prophet, and Jesus Christ appeared to the remnant of Joseph in the Americas, etc., etc.
My heart was also hardened against it but I pushed against my convictions being raised Presbyterian. Being told to pray if it wasn’t true in hind sight was a manipulative move that coerced me into the hardening my heart against the truthfulness of the Bible and in turn fell pray to my own emotions. I lived the LDS faith for 9 years before I was by His unfailing faithfulness saved from a different gospel, a different christ, and a different spirit. The moment I took my heart felt concerns about the doctrines of Mormonism I was promptly removed from serving as the second counselor and “shunned” by the church. I remained in attendance for a while but there was a spirit in me that longed for inclusion but testified strongly that something was horribly wrong with the god of Mormonism. Since then my wife and I have returned to what we call traditional Christianity and have been filled with His unfailing love. LDS folks have a special place in our hearts because we were once where they are now and pray that God gives them the measure of grace He has given us and the confidence that this who seek Him shall find Him.
Key is that you have to pray with real intent. Not because you are just curious about the book intellectually. You have to be totally honest to the point that if it is true and you receive that witness of the Holy Ghost that you will convert. Also the promise is that you will know the truth of all things. Yes, the truth of all things. That is a powerful statement. You have to really be humble, contrite and sincerely want to know the truth. It takes real courage because finding out the real truth involves change and people fear that.
Jeff asks a bunch of really direct and tough-to-answer questions here. I appreciate Jeff for asking his questions in a sincerely curious way; I appreciate Dr. Griffin for not feeling threatened; and I appreciate them both for respecting each other's autonomy and good intentions despite the differences in belief.
Yes, I really appreciated the fact that neither man shyed away from what he was believing. Jeff wasn't hesitant to say he didn't believe and to ask questions. And the guest didn't hide his belief that it is true and that Jeff will eventually come to that realization in time. And neither were threatened or offended by these differing views! I love it
@@tarabates7088 agreed! Both men handled this conversation with the grace , and set a great example for us.
I really love hearing Dr. Griffin and his knowledge and experience and testimony. He’s the perfect person to have a nice calm conversation with about the gospel.
I went to Methodist church and the Methodist church boarding school in Taiwan, and when I was 17, I attended LDS church Institute just out of curiosity, and I recived my testimony. Then I went to the smeinar I read Book of Morman, and D&C, the Holy Ghost was very strong, so I know that the LDS is the true church.
As a former Lutheran, I felt the power of the Book of Mormon as I first read it. I have reread the BoM throughout my life, and the BoM has greatly enhanced my understanding of the Bible, which I have also studied in depth. I'm grateful to have all these witnesses of Christ.
I love all your thoughtful questions, as always, Pastor Jeff. Merry Christmas to Joy, you and your family. Keep asking those questions. Peace.
The other day in the temple I was repenting for not reading my scriptures as regularly as I had before and my prayers were in my mind all day long and at night but not in the morning and as I was asking for forgiveness for that, Jesus said in my mind to me "I am merciful". This experience has given me such hope!
That's beautiful Laura!
Wow, holiness to the Lord
Pastor Jeff, hearing you read the sacramental prayer was a beautiful thing. I appreciate your reverence when you read the Book of Mormon aloud.
I read the book of Mormon when I was younger and didn't get an answer. I fell away from church and got involved with addiction for a couple decades. After I got clean, I read again and got an answer this time. Since going through addiction and getting clean, I realize that addiction is filling a God sized hole with man made things. These experiences have helped me to help so many others get free from addiction. Looking back, I see that God's timing was perfect. His timing helped me to help others back to him, even though it was 20 years after I asked. God's timing is always perfect.
I love what you're doing Paster Jeff. Loving thy neighbors. Building bridges of understanding. It's so important to our God's plan for all of us!
Also, I want to hear about what you believe when our theological beliefs differ. I want to understand.
Thank you, so much, for sharing your story. It's amazing! I just watched another youtube video I think you'd find some value in (it made me bawl like a baby, it was so good). th-cam.com/video/QV70Mlb4G2c/w-d-xo.html
@@foreverfitwithmelanie3927 your right! That video was amazing also. Thanks so much for sharing 😊
@@briangrow6450you bet, Brother!
This is a beautiful model of how to have a productive conversation between two people who disagree. Thank you Pastor Jeff and Brother Griffin for showing us how it's done. A masterclass in active listening.
And respect!
@@janeeyre8241I recently travelled abroad to Asia and as blown away by the amount of respect the eastern culture treats one another with. I definitely miss it here in the US. Pastor Jeff’s example is invaluable and something we all should strive to be. Respectful. Just I magine
I loved this video and learned so much! I have grown up in the church and tonight as we were discussing Moroni 10 my husband and I shared how our hearts have been converted since we both can remember. There were periods in my life where I wasn’t sure if I wanted to continue being active but thankfully God never gave up on me. There were times when I didn’t know if the entire Book of Mormon was true but it took pressing forward and continuing to choose to believe that has brought me to this point in my life that I have my own personal testimony and relationship with God and His Son Jesus Christ. It took a lot of time and patience but my faith and testimony has been made sure. I know The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and those that follow its teachings will be greatly blessed and know for themselves that Jesus is the Christ. ❤
I was baptized 38 years ago at age 24, went on a mission, I learned SO much. The Restored Gospel is true and glorious.
The question is what is "real intent" and accordingly a "sincere heart". I would say that real intent requires that one must accept that it is at least possible that The Book of Mormon is exactly what it proposes to be. If you are not open to the idea that what you believe now may be wrong, you lack that sincere heart and your prayers will be for naught. Or as my Father used to say facetiously, "Don't confuse me with facts I've got my mind made up."
Right, so what do the facts (rather than emotion) say about the reliability of the Book of Mormon?
Did you not watch the video? Supposedly there is nothing wrong with the Bible from the LDS point of view. Have you sincerely and with real intent considered what you believe in the BoM and D&C is wrong? Yes, let's truly look at the facts.
@ I’ve read and studied the Book of Mormon and D&C for most of my life, through childhood, with my family, through seminary, and through college. I have many fond memories of listening to BOM audio tapes tell the stories. However, when you begin to understand its composition, you start to realize the book is in no way close to the Bible, itnvolves over 40 authors from vastly different backgrounds (shepherds, kings, fishermen, prophets, and scholars), spanning over 1,500 years, and yet presents a unified and coherent message of redemption through Jesus Christ.
Don’t take any of my word for it, research for yourself. But I’d also encourage you to take what you hear from Prof. Griffin and others “experts” from Scripture Central with a grain of salt, because while they’re certainly smart guys, they (like myself) are not scholars in ancient texts.
It makes me sad to see LDS members have to so vigorous defend the BOM while downplaying or taking for granted, the Bible. There’s a rich Christian tradition dating back to the 1st century, with incredible preservation. The Bible is the most reliable record of that tradition, and it endures to this day.
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
You're the same as everyone? th-cam.com/video/UJMSU8Qj6Go/w-d-xo.html
Good questions and good answers. Jeff you have stepped up commentary on our church by having sincere conversations.
Pastor Jeff, I am sure you do not have time to read all of these comments. I just want you to know that as I have followed many of your discussions, they have helped to revitalize in many ways the belief that I have in the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and it's doctrine. In this respect, you as a Christian minister, have helped to bring me closer to Christ. You have accomplished your life's mission in me and I would dare say--many other members of my church have experienced the same thing as they have listened to these discussions. We all are trying to bring people closer to Christ. I reverence you for your life's dedication to this common cause. I can honestly say that you have likely accomplished that better than many members of my church.
Pastor Jeff, Congratulations on finishing reading the Book of Mormon!
LDS missionaries generally depend upon Moroni 10:4-5 for conversion, but not everyone receives an answer. So another epistemology is offered in Alma 32, in which one is advised to learn by doing -- test the offered belief system.
I love the way your guest answered your questions. And spoke With such respect, calmness and depth
Jeff! Kudo's to you for all you do in this LDS World you are exploring! As a member, I appreciate all you do for both the LDS community and the Protestant/Evangelical community by addressing everything about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. When I first joined this Church I was blasted, persecuted, and ridiculed. (I realize this happens on both sides.) Thank you for starting a movement within both communities of peacemaking, civility, and uplifting conversation. It's true that we can agree to disagree amicably. May you and your family continue having success and prospering. We need more voices of reason, even if we don't understand or agree!!! God bless you.
Thank you for such an enlightening discussion between Pastor Jeff and Dr. Griffin.
Having watched some of your videos going through the Book of Mormon (but not all), my impression is that the promise found in Moroni doesn't apply to your particular approach. Not saying God couldn't answer you in some miraculous way, but I don't think your approach qualifies for the promise. If I could summarize, I think your approach to the Book of Mormon was to try and understand as best you can the LDS people, their understanding, and their scripture, their view of typical Christian terminology, etc. in order to build bridges and find common ground. I think this is a legitimate and worthy endeavor, and I think you have been successful in receiving what you desired out of it.
I don't think your approach was to genuinely question your own world view, explore the Book of Mormon with an open mind that it could indeed be inspired revelation and the word of God like the Bible. In my opinion, it is this type of "real intent" and "sincere heart" questioning that Moroni speaks to, and that you would receive the promised answer for. God is willing to answer the questions as we ask them, not force information onto us that we do not desire. And as far as I have seen, you have received according to the desires of your heart. I think your desires are good, and the outcome is positive, your desire for bridges to explore the commonalities and differences of our respective faiths, to have open-hearted dialogue and friendships, has been achieved. And I think if you opened your desire further to genuinely question and consider the possibility that the Book of Mormon is of God and Joseph Smith was indeed a restorationist prophet, I believe God is willing to answer whichever doors we are willing to knock on.
Perfectly said!
Great discerning advice. Agree wholeheartedly.
I completely agree 👍. The Lord waited a looooong time to give me the witness that I sought. But it was wisdom in Him for doing so. I value the witness much more now. And, He prepared me well.
You took my exact thoughts right out of my mind, and articulated it so well…I have no need to add anything additional.
My hope is Pastor Jeff will read your comment and mine, and realize his approach has gotten him everything he desired. He openly admitted and I think even felt inclined prior to every Book of Mormon reading video, that he had no desire or intention to find out if the record was true, or historical, or divinely authentic…and that’s okay…but you can’t then turn around and try to make it seem like it should’ve been revealed to you that the record was of God. Brother Griffin provided a beautiful response to Pastor Jeff and did it in a way that was not pushy and non confrontational. Pastor Jeff was in my opinion visibly shook and bothered, as many mainstream evangelical Christians are when they don’t get the response they were expecting to their leading questions that inherently have a presupposition. I saw his pride kick in as Dr. Griffith kept responding, rather than humility. At this point, Pastor Jeff just doesn’t have eyes to see. He is blind and doesn’t realize it…and I’m not saying or meaning that in a pompous condescending manner.
I am glad he finally stopped monologuing his Book of Mormon reading videos and finished up with Dr. Griffith. Made these last few so much better!
As Moroni taught in chapter 7, the day of miracles have not ceased…and I have faith and hope and pray Pastor Jeff will approach the Book of Mormon one day with a desire and intent to find out if it is of God, and not just out of curiosity.
Very incisive. Add to this the challenge of knowing that if you get a witness that this scripture is true, and came through a prophet of restoration, then Christ really did appear to that prophet and set up his New Testament church again. That's bad news if you make your living preaching a different religion. It's even worse news if your plan was to find LDS in Utah living in the departure zone, and offer then an offramp to your church, you know, to save their souls. If that was the game plan for moving to Its and targeting this Hello Saints ministers, ain't no way you're letting anythjng like the Holy Ghost divert you from that mission statement. And there lies the rub if the undergirding intent is not pure like the lamb, but is sly like the wolf.
I have been waiting with baited breath for you to finish the Book of Mormon! Thank you, Pastor Jeff, for being willing to take this journey with us. I know many people who have had similar experiences with Moroni's challenge--not receiving the witness of the Holy Ghost that the book is true. I appreciate what Brother Griffin said about God working with people where they are. We understand not everyone has the same spiritual experiences. Personally, I didn't have a miraculous experience after following Moroni 10:4, either. The Holy Ghost did manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon to me, but it wasn't a one-and-done event like a lot of Latter-day Saints expect. Honestly, I've always felt that Moroni and Mormon were hoping that their writings would serve to convince readers that Jesus is the Christ or, if they already believe--like Pastor Jeff or Brother Griffin--their words would strengthen their faith in Christ. After watching your reactions, I think the Book of Mormon has strengthened your faith in Christ, whether you realize it or not. These videos have strengthened my faith, too. So thanks again for sharing with us
I think it's interesting the Book of Mormon depends on the New Testament to be true. If the New Testament isn't true, then the Book of Mormon can't be true. But if the Book of Mormon isn't true; the New Testament could still be true. The BofM references (asserted historical events in) the New Testament, so the NT has to be true in order for the BofM to be true but not the other way around.
@@jonathangardner3121 no one in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints could be a member without the New Testament. Joseph Smith and his family studied the Bible looking for answers to their questions and concerns. They loved the Lord. The Book of Mormon was provided to Joseph and the world as an answer to his questions about which church to join. His concern was never about the validity of the Bible. It was about which denomination would bring him closer to God.
@@jonathangardner3121the New Testament references the Old Testament. According to your logic, the NT is false.
Dr. Griffin in the house woo-hoo 🙌 The Book of Mormon was written for us today 🙏💙 Mele Kalikimaka to you both and your loved ones 🎄
I’ve known people who’ve read the Book of Mormon and weren’t convinced it was true. But for one reason or another, they kept praying, reading, studying, pondering, fasting until they began to believe some parts of the Book of Mormon. All while the Adversary would throw his painful arrows, fighting the person every step of the way. Until the day came when they believed enough to get baptized and confirmed by the Holy Ghost. But then continued learning, asking questions & the process continues for all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We don’t have a perfect knowledge of things. But we have enough faith in Jesus Christ to take the next step, ever so slowly and for others, in more rapid succession. No two Latter-day Saints are alike.
We strive to be meek, humble, teachable, willing to carry the small crosses God has asked us to carry. Some for a moments, others for a time and still others, their entire mortal lives.
But not without help. Through faith and hope in Jesus Christ, we can all eventually do as He has taught us. We are all a work in progress.
Thank you for this excellent video.
Well said!
It's called programming one's self
Yes! and it took BRIGHAM YOUNG quite a while to accept the BOOK OF MORMON.
The BOM is why I believe the Bible. It clarifies points of doctrine, and without it you are left with a god that stoped speaking, and changed his pattern of prophets and continued revelation. With revelation you have eternal marriage, redemption of our dead, and more covenants to be a blessing for our lives .
This a tremendous statement and why I love to read the Bible thru the lens of truth!
God continues to speak to us through His Son (Hebrews 1:1-2), and through the Holy Spirit that indwells in us and sanctifies us (John 14:25-26). God didn't do away with His pattern of prophets and continued revelation, but fulfilled them in Christ, and promised a priesthood to all who believe and come unto Him (1 Peter 2:4-5; The Book of Hebrews). That is why Christ is not only the greatest prophet, but the final prophet, as all things foreshadowed in the old covenant are completed in Him in the new covenant.
Those who are resurrected in the next life will not be married, because being in God's presence will be better (Matthew 22:29-30), and attempting to commune with the dead is known as necromancy, and is forbidden by God as an abomination (Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 18:10-12; Galatians 5:19-21).
@@DragnSlythe New Testament was written after the resurrection and more apostles were called as well. That is a blatant contradiction to your assumptions
@@DragnSlyRead 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 2:20, 4:11-14. Those passages say that God have to his church apostles and prophets and for a reason. Meaning, God’s only true church should have prophets and apostles even up to this day.
@@theephraimite God did not give any qualifications for His prophets, but rather elected them according to His own divine counsel, and the qualification for His apostles was to be an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ, as shown in the Book of Acts when Judas Iscariot was replaced by Matthias, after which they didn't replace any of the other apostles after they died.
If God didn't provide any qualifications for His offices, then they are not to be continued and are a man-made construct. The only church offices we've been given qualifications for are for the pastor/elder/bishop/overseer/presbyter, and the deacon.
Congratulations finishing the Book of Mormon Pastor Jeff! I know your intent wasn't to find out if it's true or not, but rather to understand what we believe better. But I hope it's ok if I share that receiving a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon can depend on a few things, such as on God's timing, purposes, and one's openness to receiving it. Also, when the Holy Spirit does give one a witness from God, it can often be difficult to trust what God is trying to tell us over our own understanding and because of all it would mean and how it could change or affect our life. But it's only meant to help change it in good ways. As a companion and support to the Bible, it increases our testimony of Jesus Christ, helps us draw closer to God as it guides us and brings the Holy Spirit more in our lives as we read it and follow its teachings, and it increases our understanding. Also, there may be reasons God will delay sending a witness for different purposes God has for you. Or you may be prompted to do something specific that will help you to receive a witness if you desire it. I loved what this Brother said about God being patient and loving with us. This is very true. God looks at the sincerity of our hearts and meets us where we are to have a relationship with him.
So no matter what happens Pastor Jeff, I respect that you have read it and were willing to learn and discuss it with members of our church. I hope you and your family will always have peace and joy (it helps that Joy is your wife 😉) and that God will be with you always!
I love this. Tyler explains so elegantly what I tried to convey so often when I served a full-time LDS mission. The part about Heaven and Hell..It makes sense that God would build His word little bit by little bit, preparing us for Christ’s second coming
Yes, and the degrees of heavenly glory are not in the Book of Mormon but in the New Testament and Doctrine and Covenants.
1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
Doctrine and Covenants 76:96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. 97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng
As a young missionary for the Church, my companion and I befriended a Protestant minister who would teach from the Book of Mormon in his weekly sermons. He said he knew it was true. He also said he could not leave his position with his church to fully embrace the Gospel for financial reasons.
I’ve known a Methodist minister who did the same. Very good man. Also an independent minister with a congregation who showed me his study of the BOM and “Jesus The Christ “. Good people with difficult dilemmas. Ive prayed for them and look forward to seeing them again in the Spirit World.
Same. Kind of. I can't leave the LDS faith and fully embrace the belief system I've been converted to because it would cost me my family, friends, assets, etc. It's difficult but I'm pretty easy going and cooperative so I make it work. Will do anything to keep my family together.
Your convertion to Jesus Christ should come to by His Holy Spirit not from your family. I am converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, even though my family is against it. The Book of Mormon helps me draw closer to the Savior Jesus Christ by keeping His commandments and serving His children. @@jonathangardner3121
I really appreciate you and your ministry, Pastor Jeff. I have learned so much from your videos. While we may disagree philosophically and doctrinally, I am happy to share your Christian identity. Thank you for helping me be a better, more dedicated brother-in-Christ with YOU! May God continue to bless you in your efforts to fight criticism with curiosity and bring people to Christ!
Outstanding conversation! Thank you! Please have Dr. Griffin again. I love your very insightful and deeply rooted questions, which are so honest-based. I can tell you two are legit friends, and that is wonderful.
Great discussion, with good points and counterpoints worth considering. Thanks, Pastor Jeff, for working through this. It has been good to think about.
I’m rereading the Book of Mormon and Dr. Griffin has helped me understand so much through the scripture central channel.
Love your discussions with Tyler G. It’s helping me understand the mainstream Protestant/Evangelical beliefs so much better. Do more of these discussions with Tyler.
I am not mormon but I have been looking forward to this video
This is an awesome dialogue. Pastor Jeff has a very good spirit. To each individual, the Lord knows when they are ready to receive a witness of truth. From personal experience, I learned that the spirit can be poured out without measure where there is no doubt. It takes all the ingredients that Moroni outlines. We need to have real intent and be willing follow the Lord. My experience of conversion is something that I can never forget.
The only thing I would put to you is this. While reading The Book of Mormon, did you, at any time, feel a deeper connection to God? If so, then you have received an answer about the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon. Even though you may not agree with everything, you have found truth in it.
Great video and conversations and questions. May God continue to bless you, in all things, as you continue to try to understand everything about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Using your logic, there are truths in math textbooks, too. That doesn't make them holy scripture.
@@kevins4254the truth in Math text book doesn’t bring you closer to Jesus Christ, and helps you serve His children by making a covenant to God to remember Him always, through visiting those who are in need, comfort those who need of comfort, and extending temporal helps to those who arw poor and the needy. The truth you can found on Math or Science will not bring you closer to Jesus Christ compared to applying to truth found in the Book of Mormon.
Thank you for reading the Book Of Mormon; another Testament of Jesus Christ!!! You have my total respect pastor Jeff.
I thoroughly appreciated this video. The platform you’re using is fantastic. Engaging with people from different faith than yours while sharing a belief in Christ is truly valuable. In today's complex world, fostering understanding and building connections is essential. I was raised Catholic and embraced the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in my early twenties. I have many friends from diverse religious backgrounds. Promoting civility and love is what unites us, and it reflects the best way to embody the teachings of Jesus Christ. Great Job.
Thank you Pastor Jeff, I'm really greatfull to you for how you are approaching this. There is a warm place in my heart for you. The faith you show and the generosity you show to ours is very valuable to me. We may never agree on certain doctrines or ever have a perfect understanding of eachother, but what I do know is you embody the attirbute of charity, the pure love of Christ. And I am so greatfull for that. It is so refreshing to feel seen, heard, and respected as someone with faith by an evangelical. Not to be called names or told I'm debased or unable to think, reason, understand, or make faith decisions on my own. Thank you!
I’m 54 and a member of the church since I was born and I’ve never had a testimony even after reading it. Jeff’s words touch me as my experience
Professor Griffin! It’s been an outstanding experience to still be your students and the learning opportunities even after graduating from BYU. What a journey! Thank you! :D
I am impressed that Jeff has read the Book of Mormon. It should be exciting to recognize another witness to the reality of God and his covenants with us. Jeff also made it clear he is not doing this to convert or change his current faith but to understand the LDS faith better. Which he has done. I doubt he will get an answer or a spiritual whiteness to the BOM or LDS faith unless the purpose of his study changes. Seems like a great guy! Good luck on your journey Jeff!
Pastor Jeff, I am impressed that you have invested so much time and effort to study and learn about the Church of Jesus Christ with a curious and open mind, even while acknowledging that you have a different theological view of God. Your approach to this endeavor is so interesting and I have appreciated hearing your perspective of the various topics. As you are just finishing a reading of the Book of Mormon I am wondering if you have an opinion of how this complex, doctrinally deep history of an ancient peoples came to be, including the details of information of names, Semitic language similarities, pretty detailed stuff. Do you think that Joseph Smith, a 20 year old farm boy was able to fabricate this book in approximately 3 months, or did it come from somewhere else? The book is either an incredibly detailed fabrication or it is true. If it’s a fabrication, he sure went to a lot of trouble, and must have done a great deal of research to get so many complex issues so complete. It is an interesting book.
Tyler Griffin is a class act.
I watch his Scripture Insights on Scripture Central on YT, and I have benefitted greatly by his sharing of his faith and knowledge after I’ve read and prayed over the scriptures he’s covering each week. I can’t think of anyone better for Pastor Jeff to talk to about his thoughts in his reading of the Book of Mormon.
Amen! 💯
24:22 With all respect Jeff, you never approached this with a sincere heart. You stared this segment off saying that you aren't looking for greater light and truth. You believe you have found all yhere is to find. If that us the case you cannot ask with a sincere heart because your not seeking truth. You are seeking understanding, but of the lds culture, not Gods truth in the Book of Mormon and other revealed scripture. I am not trying to judge your intent past anything you have stated yourself.
I understand your frustration. But I think that you're a little hard on Pastor Jeff. He asked Dr. Griffin a couple of times WHAT further light or knowledge or understanding of God he would gain by making more covenants. I think Pastor Jeff very honestly just doesn't get it. It's hard to explain to someone else but there is a LOT to gain from the restored church of Jesus Christ. He just can't see it yet. And that's perfectly understandable and normal.
I have to agree. I've been watching you reading this book all year, and although I really appreciate all the times you've been inviting, kind, and a defender of the LDS people, you have also been critical of the doctrine in the Book of Mormon. It does not seem like you have been open to the possibility that this book might actually be true.
@@brotherskeeper2012 I felt the same way. I stopped watching for a while and unsubscribed after Pastor Jeff's 3rd Nephi video. That one bothered me so much!
It's just that Pastor Jeff didn't say that he was praying to know if the Book of Mormon was true or not. He said that he prayed to see any truth. That's a different thing.
Many people balk at keeping the word of wisdom ( just as an example) until they understand why it matters or why it's relevant to them. I see Pastor Jeff as being in this stage. He's maybe trying to figure out not if the book is entirely true, but if anything about it is relevant to him. That's just my perception. I could be wrong. But him praying to see ANY truth is a step in the right direction, imo.
@@brotherskeeper2012 please I'd love to know your thoughts: how can you fault him being critical? Why would he need to pray, to ask if it's true, if he can see the differences and what's untrue?
If he knows the Bible and sees something that doesn't align with the Bible it's fair to point it out without having to pray to ask if it's true, because that Bible has already revealed the truth. And you might say "but it's more truth!" And I get that but it's not just that there's "more", it's that some things are just completely different. Example: the levels of heaven. The Bible doesn't teach different levels of heaven. You might go to 1 Cor 15:40-48 and try to justify it but Paul is talking about how just as there are different bodies of flesh between the animals, there are different bodies in the "heavens", meaning outer space, and how they are a different kind. He says all that to say that when we go to heaven, where God is, we will have new bodies. Nothing about that has anyone concluded to mean different levels of heaven until Joseph Smith came in.
Another difference is that it teaches that there will be marriage in heaven. When Jesus himself says that in heaven no one will be given to marriage. Neither will they marry nor given to marriage Mathew 22:30
But I'd love to hear anyones input on this! Thank you for reading
@Ihayden thanks for your interesting comment. I appreciate hearing different interpretations of those scriptures.
I think you hit the nail on the head about why Pastor Jeff isn't necessarily praying about if the B of M is true or not. People don't seek knowledge about things they are sure of.
Conversion is about the brain as well as the heart. I'm hoping that at the very least, Pastor Jeff will start thinking about the doctrines that he has heard and whether or not they resonate with his reason and intellect. 😊
During my mission, I came across some who sid they read and prayed, according to Moroni's promise, and said that they did get an answer that the Book of Mormon was true. As a missionary, it's a difficult thing to face. But I stand by what I told the few that made this claim. I told them that it was clearly a conversation between that person and God. While I could speculate, only God knows the true intent of the person praying, and the person praying knows their true intents. It's not my place to make a judgment on that intimate conversation with God. As a missionary, my role was to teach doctrines and make invitations. Now as a regular member, my role is to love and invite. While I would have loved people to join our religious community, it's not my place to coerce or shame people into joining and making sacred promises with God.
Well said.
People are complicated, thank you for your example of being respectful tonothers and their own journey back to the Father.
How exactly does one deny all ungodliness? And why is that necessary to obtain LDS "grace"? Doesn't make sense.
@@markandpamtaylor8341it depends on what you mean by grace. We use terms different than some other churches.
You deny yourself of ungodliness by denying, or refusing inclinations that you have that are not Godly, thus through your own commitment, and through the power of Christ become more Godly. Make sense?
I've been waiting for an update for so long! It's good to see you back!
Some people are too prideful to take the leap of faith necessary in Moroni's promise. But God is bound by eternal principles and cannot take your agency. You are free to believe & spiritually grow or not believe & stay where you are. Unfortunately this pastor has decided to stay where he is. God is still good & one has to respect this man's decision.
Love this format, and Bro. Griffin is so great. Thank you 🙏🏼
There is a Baptist minister in Independence, Missouri, who recognizes the Book of Mormon as the Word of God and preaches from it to his congregation. He remains a Baptist to this day. So you can know the Book of Mormon to be the word of God and still be an Evangelical minister.
Love that!
I recently found a booklet titled 'The Gut Microbiome and the Book of Mormon'. It focuses on Alma 46:40 and is a fascinating, short read. There are aspects of that verse that were essentially unknown until the 1990s.
He was writing for us. It was for our day
“Real intent” means you truly intend to follow through with what’s revealed to you. So that would mean being baptized into the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if God revealed to you that it is true. But that would take a lot of humility.
Dr Griffin is a phenomenal teacher. I felt edified just listening to his explanations. And props to Pastor Jeff for demonstrating respectful curiosity. Will be curious to learn if you ever get a hankering to keep studying from its pages in the future now that you’ve completed it. 😊 Is it an open and shut case? Or just… an open one. Thanks Pastor Jeff for all your efforts!
Thank you Dr Tyler for your clarity and expounding on the Book of Mormon.
Thanks for taking the time to read the BOM, I love that book!
A mormon historian once said. the book of Mormon is a hidden golden gem burried underneath a huge pile of Pig crap due to church history and LDS leaders messing everything up. The book of Mormon is soooo good but people will not even read it because of all the problems with the LDS church. ANd I agree. I love the Book of Mormon but im so dissapointed in the ignorance and stupidity of our leaders.. The Gospel is True but men abuse power!! Christ is King.
I absolutely love it when you have this guest on and discuss such important questions with him. His insights and explanations are so inspiring and helpful. I can tell that the Holy Spirit really works through him. Thank you so much!!
For me another huge part of receiving answers from God includes first seeking the principles or gifts of humility and meekness as mentioned at the end of Moroni 8 and in the New Testament. Becoming as a little child helps us be teachable- we have to lay aside our pride, our worldly biases and what we think we “know” and ask with real intent. We must demonstrate our sincerity by really desperately wanting it- not giving up on getting an answer. Then we must knock- that is; commit to receiving God’s will for us and really truly acting on it. I have learned for myself that God does not answer me if in my pride…I have no intention of acting on what answer comes to me.
So for pastor Jeff, if God gave him an answer that the Book of Mormon was true, then what? So what? Would he just go on about his previous way of life? Or would it mean a new spiritual door has opened and a paradigm shift has occurred and God has been revealed in a new and more miraculous manner? What courage would be required of him? It can mean some huge changes for any one of us- it can mean more questions and a need for more answers. Many people fear these things to where faith is no longer part of the equation.
I know for myself by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true - in that it is exactly what it says it is. I received a powerful assurance of its truthfulness and I get that same assurance and feeling of pure Christlike love. I know it was prepared and brought forth miraculously by the power of God to establish truth and testify of Christ and His central role in bringing us His redemptive power and salvation. I know Joseph Smith- an unlearned and weak farm boy- was called to be God’s living prophet and his story to me truly demonstrates the power of God. I know there can be only one true church, of one faith, one doctrine and one baptism directed by one Lord who’s Spirit unifies us as one just as Christ prayed it should be!
What about the ones that know by the power of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is false, that they received a powerful assurance that it is false and they get that same assurance and feeling of pure Christlike love.
I have lived around the world for the past 30 years, and I have seen the exact same conviction of something being true for all religions. The heart as we learn in Jeremiah 17:9 "is deceitful above all things".
What you are explaining here is called Emotional Reasoning. Emotional reasoning is saying because I felt x, y must be true.
@ the Holy Ghost works according to the law of witnesses in the Bible. Christ’s words and those of His servants are also witnesses. By two or three witnesses, truth can be unquestionably established.
“12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.”
@@carllundberg7073 So when you received an answer there was 2 or 3 witnesses that also received that answer for you and verified that it was true?
Also by these same verses it also shows that what Pastor Jeff believes in is also of God.
Most Christian religions inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ.
@@Zez88 as long as those Christian ministers are ordained “as was Aaron” by Moses to the priesthood by the laying on of hands under Prophetic Keys. Because that is how Jesus also commissioned and ordained His 12 apostles - they were called and ordained, and they likewise ordained Mathias, Paul and the 70 elders and so on. And so long as they teach the Doctrine of Christ as he revealed it without the interpolations of men. Only then can it “continually” invite and entice us to be of “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.”
@@carllundberg7073 let me know when you find it!
Doctrines of Christ with the interpolations of men like you know, eternal Polygamy are the worst.
In thinking about the question Pastor Jeff had about what The Book of Mormon adds to the Bible; I think one important thing is the truth that God continues to speak to us through a prophet. For a Latter Day Saint it is evidence of Joseph Smith’s prophetic call, if nothing else.
I love the Bible and Book of Mormon. I’m so grateful for the restoration and what it has given to me. I’ve never received an answer on my knees but living it, studying it and more. I love being LDS.
Line upon line things start resonating to one complete truth!
I owe a lot to Dr Griffin! He was a church leader for me growing up, and his passion for knowledge was infectious. Such a great guy!
I was 11 reading the children's version of the BOM over a few months with my mom, when it got to 3 Nephi 11 as God the Father introduced His Son, what happened has no words to truly make any sense but I was in an existence encompassing this earth and beyond this earth. In this existence God the Holy Ghost did something with my physical and spiritual being totally consuming it bearing an eternal witness with such a profoundness that Jesus Christ is The Eternal Savior. Just carry on, nothing wrong with where you're at!
There is a children's version??? Gotta get one
@@gbengoosewuru4139 Illustrated Stories from the Book of Mormon (16 Vols. plus Study Guide) which is sold on EBAY / Hammerhead 111 Books $95.00. It is no longer in print. I see others selling the set as well for less, good luck
@@gbengoosewuru4139 Ebay may have the 16 volumes plus the guide volume, it's no longer printed from what I can tell
Great video, thanks. These are actually the only ones I watch, when you have a member of the church on to help explain that side of things. I learned a lot from Tyler.
As far as the whole Moroni's promise not working, I've approached 'real intent' with other questions for myself. What does it mean if it's true? What would I have to give up? What in my life would change? Am I willing to accept all of that? Answers to those have helped me gauge where I'm at on my intent, and if I'm open to change or deeper commitment.
For Latter-day Saints, a testimony is not derivative (extracted ) from either the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but something experienced directly. Accepting the Book of Mormon is a humble acknowledgement of how little knowledge we currently possess. What we know is finite; what we expect to know is by comparison infinite. Latter-day Saints believe that God - our Father in Heaven - possesses all knowledge and is anxious to develop each of us to the degree we are receptive and obedient to what we are already given. Line upon line, precept upon precept. To reject progression is, literally, to dam ourselves from accepting further enlightenment, and choosing to stop drawing nearer to God.
Pastor Jeff-Thank you for this series. When you first brought on LDS apologists, I was annoyed. But now I see the wisdom in it. It allows for “steel manning” to a very high level. As an ex-LDS who still is following in the Way of Jesus (mainline Protestant in my case), I appreciate you asking these tough questions. To me, it is very clear that although the Book of Mormon indeed “has so many awesome parts,” it is not a real ancient record of ancient America. Once you get outside the “Mormon bubble,” it’s incredibly obvious. God bless.
The Book of Mormon is another satellite in our GPS that helps to triangulate our position and where we need to go.
This is a GREAT series you have put out. I hope that many LDS folks spend as much time learning about other faiths, as well. Understanding is vital.
For those who don't live in Utah, it is almost a natural thing to learn about other faiths. But other faiths also are pretty closed mouthed about their religions to where it was uncomfortable for all involved. The two topic to be avoided at gathering are politics and religion, as people are passionate about what they embrace.
BTW Utah Mormons (Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) are a unique bunch of believers/people. I say that as a convert in 1774 born and raised on So Ca.
But Jeff, you say in the beginning of this video you are not reading it for purposes of converting. IMO that is that same as reading for a purpose of not recieving an answer, just my 2cents. Those that are ready for the next ‘precept’ will recieve an answer. One thing too, its not always instant, but it will come!
Yes. See time stamp 1:48. However, Our Father in Heaven through Jesus Christ has provided Pastor Jeff the insight to move to Utah, associate with the Restored Church, and hopefully line by line help Jeff and his lovely wife feel the spirt on occasion. With God all is possible.
This sound like an excuse, because he didnt receive any answer.
Can anyone receive the answer that the BOM is not true?
@rickyricky4738 No. It's the very same concept and condition laid out in James 1:5. If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not. BUT LET HIM ASK IN FAITH. NOT WAVERING.
V. 7-- for let not that man think that he shall receive ANY THING of the Lord.
Someone might believe that they received an answer that it wasn't true. But from my perspective, that answer can't have come from the Holy Spirit. It would be akin to someone saying that the Holy Spirit testified that there is NO God.
1) I KNOW of a certainty that there IS a God.
2) the Holy Spirit would never, and can never, witness a thing that is NOT true.
@@gwengold8154bravo!!!! Great response.
If you aren't willing to be converted then you won't receive an answer. Plain and simple.
I would also add d&c section 9 verse 7...
This is one of the keys to receiving an answer promised by Moroni. Pres. Henry B Eyring in the October 2021 general Conference taught “Hearing that voice will come from our faith in Him. With sufficient faith, we will ask for direction with the intent to go and do whatever He asks.” We must be willing to act on what the the Lord teaches us, otherwise why would he answer?
I prayed to receive a manifestation when I was about eight years old and nothing happened. It wasn't until I was 18 that God choose to answer my prayer and answer it He did! My wife studied and prayed about the Book of Mormon for a couple of years before receiving her answer.
I don’t pretend to know Pastor Jeff’s heart, but it has seemed to me all along that he already has his mind made up that we are wrong. Can you pray sincerely to know if it is true if you already have your mind made up? Is your intent real if you don’t intend to change based on the answer He could potentially give? From my point of view, it seems the only answer found is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not exactly the same as evangelical Christianity, which we already knew. I do appreciate how gracious and kind pastor Jeff has been.
Great questions! Moroni 10:3-5 is one of my favorite scriptures. I combine it with James 1:5-7 and John 8:31-32. You have a great relationship with your wife. Your children are blessed for it.
It's really important to do what you're doing Jeff. I applaud you and know that God knows you, your thoughts, your heart and is guiding you on this journey of understanding. Thank you, always, for your courtesy, respect and honesty. 😊
I believe Moroni's promise helps us realize the truths that are in the BoM. It can start small, and later increase, "line upon line." ♥️
Thank you for this video! Been looking forward to it for a long while now ❤
Asking what the Book of Mormon offers beyond the bible is a strange question to me. The question isn’t about completeness, it’s about a living God that can still speak. I wonder if people during Isaiah’s day wondered why Isaiah’s writings were necessary?
@@brannonburton5494 Christian’s absolutely believe God is still speaking but we don’t canonize these writings. We are to test everything because the Spirit of God dwells inside of us. We no longer need a prophet like the Old Testament. Jesus is our priest, prophet and savior. Jesus told us He is the vine and we are the branches. We need only to abide in Him and as all believers do this we grow up in Christ who is the head of the church.
I cannot begin to say how much I admire you. To read someone else’s scriptures and to disagree but be so respectful and Christ like. We need 25 more pastor Jeff’s in the world. Thanks for helping us all get along.
Pastor Jeff,
I enjoyed this video! So glad you have done the last several books with Tyler. I hope that if you read the Pearl of Great Price or the D&C that you will include Tyler. Maybe if he has time he can go over the earlier Book of Mormon books with you. I remember you having questions. (Not that you need to re-do the videos or anything.)
Maybe the time isn't right for you to get an answer about the Book of Mormon. Maybe you are doing so much good with the bridge building that God would prefer for you to keep doing it. God sees the big picture. We don't. I am glad to hear that you see good and truth in the Book of Mormon even if you don't accept all of it yet.
Yes! For sure bring back the amazing Dr. Tyler Griffin! He did a great job.
It’s Brother Griffin!! Such an amazing teacher!!!!
I love the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible. I believe God has an endless amount of knowledge to share, to the degree that we are willing to receive more knowledge.
I will never "put my hands over my ears" and tell God, "Stop! Don't tell me anything else! We already have everything we need to hear!"
That would be silly, but also arrogant -- for me to tell God that he doesn't have my permission to reveal anything new to mankind?
That's why we say, in Article of Faith #9, "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God "
God Himself has said, "There is no end to my works, neither to my words."
As Pastor Jeff seeks to understand LDS so he can further that understanding to his own congregation, he is in turn helping LDS to see into his own and his congregation's beliefs. Mutually we all benefit. Thanks to you and your channel.
Jeff is reading to understand a false book, not to know whether it is the truth. His mind is closed to that possibility. He has stated exactly that on several occasions. His rigorous training in using the Bible as the ultimate source of truth and his dogmatic adherance to modern Christian assumptions makes it impossible for him to even consider that the Book of Mormon could be true. If we're not humble enough to say "I dont know everything, God teach me and I will accept the truth regardless of the consequences," then we have closed our hearts to the spirit of God.
Amen. If God were to reveal greater light & knowledge to folks with a closed mind due to pride or presupposition, it would only heap condemnation on their heads for not taking action on the truths revealed to them. Rather, God respects the true desires of our hearts. If we want greater light and knowledge and have the faith to follow through on those revelations, God will provide it. Otherwise, he will keep the heavens shut if our hearts do not desire it.
Dear Pastor Jeff, I’ve been watching your videos from the beginning. I’m impressed with you and your wife as being very sincere Christians who believe in Christ and love the Bible. Latter-day Saints have been intrigued by your reasonably open mindedness and your honest curiosity compared to many other evangelicals.
Moroni gives one very important key to conversion and testimony. He mentions “real intent“.
There’s no way that another person can judge your real intent, but I would ask you, what do you think that means? If I were in your shoes, it would mean that I would be ready and willing to give up my pride and my profession. Once I received this answer, I would have to accept that I would no longer be a Pastor earning my living preaching the gospel, but I would have to give all that up to become an Elder without the pomp and prestige that comes with being a Pastor. I wouldn’t be honored and praised and admired on a stage with lights and music and all the recognition that goes with giving a charismatic sermon every week. The question is, are you willing to give all that up and all the money that you’re making on this TH-cam channel which has to be pretty substantial at this point. Because once you join the church, the lights will fade, the attention will be less as you fall in with the normal rank and file membership of the church, which doesn’t come with a lot of recognition. Are you ready to give all that up and become a regular disciple of Christ, being a small part of a great effort, led by Apostles and Prophets? This is what “real intent“ is all about. Could you do it? Only you can answer that question.
You're the same as everyone? th-cam.com/video/UJMSU8Qj6Go/w-d-xo.html
The problem with Moroni's promise is that you have to have an open heart and are willing to ACT upon the answer you receive. Would you be willing to be baptized, give up being a pastor if the answer is that is is true?
Can the answer be that its not true?
@@rickyricky4738 For sure God will always reveal truth. It's hard for me to imagine someone being told that the book of mormon is not true because I receive a spiritual witness nearly every time I read from the book. But, who am I to judge God. The Principle remains James 1:5 ask God and receive knowledge (with the caveat that it will be in God's way and timing).
I think that Pastor Jeff really would be willing to give up everything to follow where the Lord led him. I don't think it's a matter of action. I get the feeling that it's more about seeking a sign. Pastor Jeff sounds like he wants the Lord to show him some sort of sign if there's any truth lying around. But, the Lord doesn't work that way most of the time. The witness comes AFTER the trial of your faith. I've experienced that in my own life.
What if Jeff is convinced he has received eternal life solely from what the Bible has told? What more would he need?
@@maxstooksberry9458 for a latter-day saint, we define eternal life differently than Pastor Jeff likely does. As far as his definition goes, he maybe doesn't need anything else. But personally, I would greatly lament the loss of the Book of Mormon and all the restoration scriptures. That would be an unbearable loss!
Pastor Jeff, thank you so much for this wonderful video series!
I've been following you journey for over a year, but have only commented once or twice.
I see you've arrived at the "Where the rubber meets the road" scripture (Moroni 10:4) LOL.
First off, every member, whether born in an LDS family or a convert, struggles with that script just as you are. "What does this say about me?" Is a question all of us face.
The advice I think most of us would give you is, "Trust in God, keeping doing good, obey His Word as best you understand it, and remember that the only opinions that matter are those of He and His Son, and He will help you with the rest."
POV: My extended family on my mother's side are/were devote Southern Baptists and Church of Christ folks. When a few of us started converting to the LDS Church things quickly became very "complicated." I'm sure you understand.
Later, when a Jewish acquaintance of mine converted to Christianity, I realized that his journey, struggle, and family challenges were very similar to what we went through. Further, the way he expanded his faith to include the New Testament and Christianity was very similar to how we expanded ours to include the Book of Mormon and the Restored Gospel.
God Speed!
Before Jacob received a blessing for his seed he wrestled with God for it to the point that he got hurt. Usually people don’t receive strong revelation unless they feel they need to know the answer desperately… Life being in danger, truly worried about their spiritual/physical welfare etc.