Pastor & Latter-day Saint EXPLORE Church Exodus
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ย. 2024
- Why are so many people leaving the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Why are church-goers leaving the Evangelical church? Pastor Jeff discusses with Latter-day Saint Scholar, Dr. Jared Halverson.
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between mainstream Christians and Latter-day Saints. Are Mormons Christians? What do Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
If you enjoyed this conversation, you might enjoy a video Pastor Jeff with his wife attending Latter-day Saint church in Utah for the first time: • Our FIRST TIME at a La...
#LatterDaySaints #podcast #leavingreligion
This is a tricky, complicated conversation. What are your thoughts?
Interesting to ask an LDS member this question. Realize they just don't understand it though.
Thank you for this discussion! I wish there was a place for respectful dialogue like this between members and ex-members.
I consider my faith crisis the hardest and most beautiful experience of my life. Though I left the church, I experience what I was taught to label "the spirit" more consistently now than any other point in my life. It really can be a wonderful thing to leave the church, and I wish my member friends and family appreciated that a bit more.
Jeff, I’d like to see you interview someone like Don Bradley on Joseph Smith. He is an expert, and it was researching about Joseph Smith that actually brought him (back) into the Church after leaving it years before.
The attack upon our culture and society is not just political, nor physical, but deeply rooted attacks on our spirituality, since the beginning of this earth. In these latter days, it's taken the form of many different ways of seeking to cause us to have shallow and temporary thoughts and relationships, including with God. John Taylor Gatto explains a lot of this.
I left the LDS church shortly before I would have been ordained a priest over 20+ years ago. I actually left because of the treatment I would get from my family about the Church. My grandmother was a teacher and I questioned her about Noah and the Ark, so she kicked me out of class... and my mother used to spray me with a water bottle like a cat if I did not get up for church. Eventually I did not want to have those experiences anymore so I quit. Even though I left into and embraced atheism, I eventually after many many years of personal exploration found what I truly believe and I wish I could go back and talk to my grandmother and mother about their belief to better understand the reasons for the outbursts of anger towards my teenaged angst.
Some of us are also returning to the church. Me for example. I left the church about 12 years ago and became a very vocal and strident critic of the church and a hardcore atheist.
Earlier this year, however I finally found my way back to Jesus Christ. And finally after much thought, study, exploration of other Christian traditions, and of course lots of prayer, I decided to rejoin the Saints, and I was rebaptized about two months ago.
Proud of you Jace! That takes a lot of courage and humility. And, even though I bet that was a difficult road to travel I bet the lessons you learned are such a blessing to you and everyone around you. God bless you...
welcome back home. It's just a matter of time for everyone really. God is still mindful of everyone even when they leave. Please know that God's love for you did not change.
Congrats in coming back to the LDS Church, Jacekiser! That's great...
@@jacekiser5876 good for you. God will consecrate your experience for your good and that of those you serve in future callings. Glad to have you back in the fold!
Like you have any idea what a possible creator thinks. There is no evidence a possible creator cares what we do. @@blenderesque708
I grew up in the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Disciples of Christ churches. I also attended church often with my grandmother who was an Assembly of God very strong evangelical. I respected all of the things that I learned from each, but I always felt there was something missing. So I studied other churches and attended others. Also, I studied television ministry which was very popular back in the 1950s and ‘60s.
Billy Graham was my favorite gospel teacher. I’ve always respected him very much. I had the most powerful spiritual experience I have ever had at a Billy Graham Crusade many years ago. At that occasion, I received a personal revelation from God, which, in part, said I should study the New Testament for guidance in finding the true church.
My biggest problem in my studies was I felt none of the churches followed simple things I noticed in the Bible. Like Jesus saying to pray to Heavenly Father, not to Him (Jesus). There were no infant baptism‘s in the Bible. Jesus said he had a body of flesh and bones, and that he was not just a spirit. When He ascended to heaven, he said that he was going to My Father and your Father, My God and your God. I learned that the Bible was put together by good men and some Bibles differed in content from others. The Book of Revelation was not the last book ever written in the Bible. Yet, I was told there should be no more scripture or revelation from God, because it said so in the end of the Bible. I could not see any place in the Bible that said there should be no more prophets and no more revelation from God. I was always worried about people who had never heard of Jesus in their life going to hell automatically.
All of these things bothered me and eventually I found answers to these questions in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have no animosity towards or desire to tear down any of the churches I ever learned from. I have always been disappointed in the anti-LDS efforts made against my church, especially by Evangelicals. Why would they produce movies, videos, books, and articles of all types to discredit The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I have attended evangelical church services with my Evangelical cousins where they openly taught falsehoods about my church. I have attended churches in my community that organized city-wide efforts to discredit my church. These are examples of non-Christian like activities by other churches. They should be concerned about their own doctrine and history at a time when all Christians should be joining together to defend our common faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
I too had many of the same observations and concerns you have brought up... before I joined the LDS Church. Their teachings just made more rational sense to me... at the time - when I was still biblically illiterate. At that time in my life, I needed clearer answers to many of the questions I had... that still couldn't be answered to my satisfaction - until the LDS.
Now, many years later, and much more knowledgeable about what God has revealed in the Holy Bible, it is much different now.
Do you not know that in the Book of Mormon, those who saw Jesus Christ prayed to Him knowing that He is God?
3 Nephi 19:18
And behold they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
Do you know that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that Jesus Christ is BOTH the Father and the Son?
Mosiah 15:1-5
And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
Mosiah 16:15
Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, which is the Very Eternal Father. Amen.
Alma 11:26-29
And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?"
And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God."
Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?"
And he answered: "No."
And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
3 Nephi 11:27
27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in My name."For behold, verily I say unto you that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one; And I Am in the Father and the Father in Me and the Father and I are one;
Ether 4:12
For behold, I Am the Father; I Am the light and the life and the truth of the world. - Jesus Christ
Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation)
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
John 14:8-11
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
@@joesimpson9230 Yes. This was a unique situation. Jesus clarified that they prayed to Him because He was WITH them. Generally, prayers are directed to the Father, as Jesus taught. I think the reason so many non-LDS pray to Jesus is because they see Him as being the same as the Father. As LDS we differ on this view and are thus, more specific to pray to our Heavenly Father.
@@adamcarlini5195 Where does the different view come from since the Book of Mormon clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Father, and also that God is a singular being?
Ether 4:12
For behold, I Am the Father; I Am the light and the life and the truth of the world. - Jesus Christ
Alma 11:38-39
93 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: "Is the Son of God the Very Eternal Father?"
94 And Amulek saith unto him: "Yea, He is the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth and all things which in them is;
95 He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation)
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
Moroni 8:18
For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable 👉Being, But He is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
Mosiah 4:19
For behold, are we not all beggers? Do we not all depend upon the same 👉being, even God, for all the substance which we have; for both food, and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
Alma 26:35
Yea, and my joy is carried away, even unto boasting in my God; for he has all power, all wisdom, and all understanding; he comprehendeth all things, and he is 👉a merciful Being even unto salvation, to those who will repent and believe on his name.
Mormon 9:19
And if there were miracles wrought, then why has God ceased to be a God of miracles, and yet be 👉an unchangeable being.
D&C 20:19
after his own image and in his own likeness created he them, and gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him the only living and true God, and that he should be the 👉only being whom they should worship.
You don’t usually make me cry Jared. You do always make me think. But this time your comment about hypothetically giving up The Book of Mormon pushed my tears right out. I love that book. I could not forsake The Book of Mormon even to protect my life. I could not forsake any true witness of Jesus the Christ. 10 Book of Mormon testimonies of Christ filled my mind and heart. I am so thankful the sincere words of that great people of God were preserved for the last days. I love my Savior and owe Him everything. What a gift He has given me in The Book of Mormon!
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
@@joesimpson9230 I wish you the best but I completely disagree. I asked God if Brigham Young was a prophet of God with a sincere heart open to whatever the answer was two years ago and several months later while praying about another topic as I stepped into Brigham’s home in Nauvoo, God answered my prayer. I am a witness of Brigham Young’s prophetic call and that a true Quorum of the Twelve Apostles met in the adjoining room. God bore witness to me. Russell Nelson is God’s living prophetic. God bless you. I am thankful for your sake that you have maintained your faith in Christ. He will guide you in your life, I am sure. God bless.
@@WitnessJesustheChrist Does Brigham have any prophecies like Joseph Smith did?
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned." (Brigham Young - July 14, 1855 - Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266).
“I will remark with regard to slavery, inasmuch as we believe in the Bible, inasmuch as we believe in the ordinances of God, in the Priesthood and order and decrees of God, we must believe in slavery. This colored race have been subjected to severe curses, which they have in their families and their classes and in their various capacities brought upon themselves. And until the curse is removed by Him who placed it upon them, they must suffer under its consequences; I am not authorized to remove it. I am a firm believer in slavery.” - Brigham Young, Speech on Slavery Before the Utah Territorial Legislature archive.org/details/cr100317b0001f0014brighamyoung1852january23original/page/n1/mode/2up
“You say, “That man ought to die for transgressing the law of God.” Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged.” …
“There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants.”
--Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, JD 3:245.
Joseph Smith repeatedly denied ever having more than one wife. Emma Smith confirmed that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. Court decision confirmed that Joseph didn't practice polygamy.
Brigham Young pretended that Joseph practiced polygamy.
Do you believe that Joseph and Emma were liars?
@@joesimpson9230this could be true… I can see that and actually hope that is true. No answer yet.
I had Jared Halverson as a professor at BYU a few semesters back and he was hands down the best professor I've ever had. Super smart and super kind. "If all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto (Jared Halverson), behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever"! Alma 48 17
Hear Hear!
Amen ❤
@@chorb2000 thanks for your post. I have found several videos from Jared Halverson that have been very insightful. I'm on my way back home!
This is such a cringe comment 🤮🤮🤮
@@wafflewafflegod seriously? I think Brother Halverson is a good man worthy of praise. So is Captain Moroni.
Finally!!! I’ve been waiting for this conversation for months. Two people cut from the same clothe helping others find Jesus. I appreciate Jeff’s willingness to share his own struggles about the challenges found in the evangelical faith tradition and Jared’s openness to confront some of the difficult topics in an LDS tradition. You both are showing us how to build bridges.
Why do we need to build bridges? Having been Mormon and now Christian, I never met someone in either group that hated the other. Mormonism and Biblical Christianity are vastly different. If one is true, the the adherents of the other are not going to heaven. Isn't the most important thing to determine which is true, rather than "building bridges?"
@@tkc3742🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Powerful conversation. I had the opportunity to drive Jared and his wife to the Airport one time and they are some of the most sincere sweet people I’ve ever met.
I loved this conversation…Jared clearly stating that we are all working together to be GOOD Christians. Supporting and helping where we can so there will be faith on the earth when Jesus Christ comes again!
But what Christ are Mormons following? The Bible warns of false Christs that cannot save. The Christ of scripture saves by grace through faith, not of works. The Mormon Christ saves by "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel." (3rd Article of Faith)
Wow!! Strong Latter Day Saint here! I just passed the 30-minute mark by a couple of minutes, and I can not believe how honest Pastor Jeff is!! Listening to his conversations has definitely changed my view on evangelical churches. I thought evangelical churches were all the way that he just described when he described what he was worried about getting in the way of Christ in the evangelical church!! Just show there are all kinds of people in this world and many different types of people within every religion. I think everyone goes through times of temptation, and we all falter at times! Popularity and fame can bring on a whole different set of temptations. I hope Pastor Jeff can stay as genuine, humble and honest as he is now!
I Love Brother Halverson! I could listen to him all day everyday! I always feel the Spirit when he teaches. Can’t wait for more material with him! Thanks for all you do Pastor!
This was absolutely amazing, thank you so much Jeff for having Jared on your podcast, what a treat!!!
I enjoy Bro. Halverson's Unshaken podcast. My favorite ever. This gentleman is so deep in his understanding of Jesus Christ and the Restoration of the gospel.
I love listening to Brother Halverson. I just found his podcast Unshaken and really enjoyed how he takes a deep dive into each verse. I have learned so much from him. Thanks, Jeff, for having this discussion.
I really liked Jared’s usage of the quote about how the Atonement is the central doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ, and everything else is an appendage. I also really liked how it led into his comments about how the Restored Church essentially encompasses the truth of all other prominent faiths.
Mormonism is the antithesis of the Christian faith. “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” ( Mormon 3rd Article of Faith)
Biblical Christianity teaches that we are saved by grace through faith, apart from obedience to laws and ordinances. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, John 3:16, etc)
Yes, we Latter-Day Saints believe, for instance, that baptism is an ordinance that must be reformed in order to be "saved."
@@tkc3742 The operative word is “by” which may be used with a different connotation than you are accusing.
Latter-Day Saint doctrine is internally grace-based. Obedience is necessary, but not fundamental to salvation. Similarly, I would suspect that you believe that your faith does not earn your salvation, although faith is necessary it is also not fundamental. Christ’s grace and atonement are fundamental.
You are making a self-defeating argument. If you weren’t obedient to the doctrine of having faith in Jesus Christ, then you wouldn’t be saved according to your belief either. I’m not aware of any religions that require absolutely no obedience except maybe universalists.
@@natedawg2020 Mormon: Faith + Works = Salvation.
Christian: Faith = Salvation + Works.
Mormonism teaches that one is saved by grace after all he can do (2 Nephi 25:23) and that grace is only received after denying oneself of all ungodliness (Moroni 10:32).
Christianity teaches that grace is the unmerited favor of God, to be received in faith. This kind of saving faith will result in good works, but good works will never merit salvation.
Why is this important? Because a gospel that is not a gospel of grace, is one that damns (Galatians 1:6-9)
@@rosecolored2024 So the thief on the cross, who believed in Jesus, but wasn't baptized, isn't saved? Even though Jesus told him that he would be with him in paradise?
My wife and I love listening to Christian radio. Always find nuggets of understanding and truth listening to them. Sometimes understanding the scriptures takes a lifetime. So why not seek understanding from those who study it as a profession with a unique perspective.
Agreed! John MacArthur had one of the best sermons against infant baptism I've seen. He has a lot of funny ideas about the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but he's a good source of scripture references on various topics with historical, cultural, and language contexts.
I’m a lifelong Lutheran who has been follow Hello Saints for a while. I love theology. This was a super conversation, gentlemen, possibly the best one so far on HS. It was informative and thought provoking. Thank you for speaking so honestly and genuinely.
I am a less active Latter-Day Saint, and I was recently telling my friend who is active that my issue was more the culture than the gospel. I find some of the cultural aspects to be hinderance. So, I resonate with what you are talking about. ❤
I tell people with your concern that the best way to impart changes that need to happen are inside the church. The church is a hospital. People are sick and need help. You, me, everyone. If you still believe the book of Mormon and doctrine, and I hope this doesn’t insult, then come back and be the change you wish existed in the church - even if it feels lonely at times. Christ himself had to do things alone at times as well. I’ve lived in 5 states including Utah and the church culturally is different in all of them. Don’t take culture to mean truth.
In fact when we lived in Utah. We didn’t move but got changed wards due to boundary changes and were in 3 wards. Each ward was different culturally there too. Some were conceited and some loving. Each had a fault. But each had beauty and strengths too. I needed each of those wards for various reasons. Sometimes to humble me and sometimes to love me and another for friends.
would you share some cultural examples that are a hinderance?
@@brainhunter1000 Excellent points!
There seems to be a great awakening in the lds church. People are realizing the deception in the organization.
@@brainhunter1000 I appreciate your commitments.
I loved this conversation. I feel like I can certainly learn from this discussion--not just the content, but the respectful manner in which it was delivered. And this is the collab I have been waiting for.
My two favorite podcasters together! I loved this conversation.
Perhaps the best person(s) to ask why people are leaving the LDS church are not a church-employed apologist but the actual people doing the leaving.
Amen!!
Right?! I’ve been listening to the horrid stories of the many many de-transitioners and it has completely opened my eyes to the dark under belly of the trans community. Thank heavens for people’s exit stories, right? It exposes SO much about the group, and their real and raw stories need to be heard.
A phenominal listen! I teach an LDS seminary class, and my fellow teachers and I have had versions of this conversation about culture vs covenants several times. We really do see culture being one of the major driving away forces, yet we see a recent movement across the board to eliminate unnecessary tradition and leave only the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. Our hearts hurt when we see people walk away from their Savior and His desire to help them weather the storms of life, and we rejoice when they run to Him and embrace Him as their Redeemer and Friend. Regardless of church affiliation, when people live the principles of faith, hope and charity, especially the aspect of forgiveness, the world is warmer and more peacefull. You guys gave me alot of perspective to think about, and I love that you're having this conversation! Thank you! ❤
I was in a situation where I saw my sister-in-law more frequently than my brother. I often asked my sister-in-law how my brother was doing. Her response was always the same, “Why don’t you ask him yourself?” If you want to have a conversation about why people leave, maybe you should have on someone who has left. If you wanted to obfuscate the real reasons people leave by putting a “faithful” spin on it, mission accomplished.
I agree wholeheartedly with this and have suggested before that he interview someone who has left the LDS faith for another Christian faith. I think it would be a much different conversation.
But the idea here was to discuss why people are leaving their faith traditions altogether. Not leaving one faith for another.
@@barbaraostergaard420 True, however he still is not speaking with someone who has left their faith. He is getting information from a current believing member.
@@lorawhitfield6995 true
It is really disturbing to me, how many people will not listen to ex followers. It is disgusting to hear the same boring excuses. One that really irks me is the idea that teens just go atheist because they are going through that teen phase. They'll be back. The number of those people returning gets smaller.
I say people have to get out of their echo chamber, and listen to answers they will probably hate. Those who do not listen to points and counterpoints will not be going anywhere.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤Oh and when will you have David Boise on this podcast? We want to hear your thoughts, how a man, begins to explore 52 churches in 52 weeks and picks one, the LDS church❤❤❤❤❤❤❤All those in favor give this comment a 👍👍👍👍
David is a huge inspiration to me personally
Hello brethren. I am disappointed by the tendency to blame the “leavers” for leaving. They weren’t really committed Christian’s. They didn’t believe. Instead the ground in the parable of the sower is pointing the finger at the institution were they found NOTHING to nourish their relationship with God. Brother Halverson, it’s not necessarily the historical events that propel the departure, but the constant misrepresentation by Church leaders about these events
You think any real Christian would never leave?
I feel like this conversation would be made better by asking those who leave why they leave instead of asking those who stayed to make assumptions.
I saw no complications. Both explained their thoughts very well. Faith in confronting fears brings clarity, as they demonstrated. Truly wanting to follow Christ leads to charity in spirit and deed...which is the pure love of Christ.
20:43 I get that Jared isn’t speaking to all of us former members. With that said, many of us didn’t leave because of a shallow experience with God or the wrong view of God. It’s waaaaay more than that. It breaks my heart when someone thinks it’s because we never really understood the gospel and that’s the problem. It just breaks my heart that that can sometimes be the assumption.
I’d hope that people would ask why I left and not assume.
That being said, I know Jared generally listens and is trying to distill what he’s heard and not speak for everyone.
Yess !! To see that you got to sit down with my best friend (although he doesn’t know it) is heart warming and I appreciate your hard work Jeff 🙌🏽😇
I think this is one of my very favorite of Hello Saints. I think I have watched most if not all of I love Bro Jared Halvarson’s podcast but see both of you sharing testimony together about the relationship that we can have with our Savior was awesome. Thanks guys. Keep it up. What an exceedingly joyful time we live in…that this is possible and available to us all. So cool😊😊
I looooove brother Halverson, looking forward to this conversation!
My three daughters left their beliefs in a God because of my coercion to believe in God and Christ. Now they have decided to rebel against my coercive behavior. I pray they will find God and Jesus through their own study and free will of choice by discovering a loving God and a loving Savior whom they need.
Just keep your faith it will be ok❤
God bless you and your daughters, Sister! ❤
It is a very common reaction, and I just wish the masses of adults understood this. I often asked "Did you adults remember any of your teen years? Did any of you like doing whatever your parents told you not to do? Why should it be different for you?"
I once heard an unexpected reaction from an adult to a common situation. They caught their teen smoking weed. Their reply? You only get to smoke it on weekends. Do it where I can't see it or smell it. The appeal was greatly reduced and some teens even quit doing it for that reason.
I’m similar, I still have my faith in God that I left church, largely because of how much my parents forced me to go to church, along with the even bigger factor that is seeing how cruel and on Christ like churches are. There’s also just a factor of asking God to care, and simply not seeing it.
@@danielclingen34keep asking. He cares. I promise. Just keep trying.❤
I have been looking forward to Pastor Jeff & Brother Halverson having a sit down conversation on Hello Saints. Two Great Guys. Hopefully you will both do more together in the future. I follow both Jeff & Jared on their TH-cam channels. Keep up the Great Work the both of you are doing. Look forward to future podcasts/videos of the both of you working together to bring others to JESUS CHRIST and his Gospel.
But each believe one is wrong and the baptism invalid 😂. False kindness by dogmatic ideologues. Religions are just different flavors of the same thing. All without credible evidence to support their dogmas
I love Bro. Halverson🙏🏽and his lessons and scriptural insights🙏🏽
My husband and I sat next to a Methodist minister in a plane and we were talking about this and we agreed that the youth that have stayed are stronger than we ever were in the 80’s. We have been with a son and DIL at their evangelical church. We got a rock band and a 15 video on contributing $ to a new chapel and a 10 minute sermon, the pastor did ask those living in sin to correct their behavior. There is a lot obstructing Jesus when money is involved. Great conversation.
Love this! I served my mission with "Elder Halverson" back in the day! So fun to see the two of you on a podcast together! Great job!
Two of my favorite people to listen to. Just yesterday I was thinking how great it would be to get you two together for a discussion. Jared is amazing!!! And I love hearing from Jeff!
Both of you are an important. Part of this day. Jesus is the Christ. You both love Him and are bringing others to Christ. I would love to see more
Thank you Pastor Jeff. I love what you're doing here and a great conversation with Jared Halverson. I also really appreciate Jared's teachings on the scriptures. Big thank you to you both.
This was a great conversation! I would like to add my commentary as someone who recently left the LDS faith but did not leave God. I attend a non-denominational Christian church and have formed a better relationship with Jesus in the process. It really resonated with me when you talked about how certain things within church can obstruct Jesus. That is what I experienced for many years, as a lifelong member and 64 years old. I had ups and downs within the church my whole life.
I appreciate Jared’s response that those that leave should be responded to with empathy. I have seen this from some members but not from top leadership. Current talks include phrases such as “where will you go”, “don’t take advice from those who don’t believe”, “they were deceived”, “they are lazy learners”, “other churches are just playing church”, etc. Many “faithful” LDS podcasters speak very harshly of those who leave, even those who choose a different faith.
Finding out certain history of the church is a huge reason for many who leave, but it is not for lack of being interested before, as Jared stated. It is because the full history was simply not taught when I was a youth and young adult. Things were hidden until they couldn’t be anymore and a can of worms was opened.
I do like to see interfaith conversations and I don’t begrudge anyone who stays in the LDS church for their own personal reasons. I just wish those that leave for their reasons weren’t bashed as they are more often than not.
I think that they are trying to get you to "think celestial " as President Nelson puts it. They are worried about your eternal destiny. It's a similar dynamic to protestants and evangelicals and Catholics sometimes pushing too hard or being abrasive due to well-intentioned worry about our eternal fate!
Thank God you did not leave God as others have!
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
@joesimpson9230 When it comes right down to it, Jesus Saves! When He said it was finished, it was finished!!!
I am Most grateful for His Salvation.... And I should clarify this & say "Infinite Atonement/Salvation for His True Believers?"
No man, No Church will ever stand between our Ultimate Judgement Day, and this applies to all 7 Billion+ (presently and passed on) of God's Children including those who refused to practice or accept polygamy, BY's Blood Atonement, or them having been born black between 1845-1978.... Or even refused to "murder the nation" as a part of an early church endowment covenant in the early days of the church.
Perfection is a process and only comes thru one's desire to follow the Savior and allow their fruits to be displayed from within for their true love for Him, and No Man or church, including Brigham or Phil (or any church leaders), only His Grace.
It's even more complicated today, with our general LDS leaders jerked around like spending 10's of thousands for things like the Salamander Letter and then finding out it was a fraud, or must recently with LGBTQ+ and trans issues like the following from a church apologist...
th-cam.com/video/DXVL5AYQ8dY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Hsbow_VzNguEWstR
With all that said, it's important to remember that the gospel of Jesus Christ is true and as my old friend Dave Raider used to say!! No man, no church saves but helps us stand in holy places in the simplicity of the gospel.
The BOM is loaded with morsels of wonderful truths that I love and most commonly quote to anyone, including Moroni 8, Alma 5 & 32 as well as Moroni's Ether 12.
The general church and many souls within must read from this great book and apply it's SIMPLE & PURE teachings and we'd be much better off as President Benson clearly taught.
My takeaways I must share.
To my Christian friends, perhaps LDS as well reading this: Please do not judge the Book of Mormon based on what you have heard about it "containing the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel" and the "most correct of any other book", including the Bible. With that said, The Book of Mormon does not teach the most unique doctrines embraced by the LDS church (past & present). It is actually quite in line with NT Biblical teachings and contains more Christian theology than even Mormon theology, (I have much on this including the original 1830 BOM edition that i have read, i.e., 1 Nephi 11 &13, like Mary being the mother of God the eternal Father, rather than Jesus, later changed within the 2nd edition of 1837, one year before the 9th FV version [1 of 9] and ultimately the only first vision declared with God and Jesus appearing and later accepted & published in 1842).
It reminds me of the changes Jesus made in fulfilling the Law of Moses and rebuking the Pharisee's similar to what is taught in Jacob 2 in the BOM.
There are things we can't completely understand in the BOM like the following....
*The Book of Mormon teaches that Christ’s grace alone has the power to save. “2 Nephi 31:21”
*The LDS church teaches that Jesus saves, BUT you also need a bunch of temple ordinances (works) in order to gain exaltation with God.
*The Book of Mormon teaches that polygamy is evil, that it destroys women and calls it an abomination. “Jacob 2:23-35”
*The LDS church teaches (or has, see D&C 132) that polygamy is next to godliness and that many, if not all who want to live with God and be like Him may live that sacred principle.
*The Book of Mormon does not teach that drinking alcohol, coffee or tea is evil, nor will it keep us from God’s presence.
*The LDS church teaches that the above things are sins and that they will keep you from entering the holy temple and making ordinances with God, therefore foregoing eternal exaltation with Him.
*The Book of Mormon makes no mention of temples or temple ordinances as necessary for salvation or exaltation. In fact, it calls "secret oaths and covenants evil in the sight of God". “Alma 37:21-32” Jesus’ gospel is free of secret ordinances reserved for the elite.
*The LDS church claims that the ordinances performed in the temple are “essential” to return to God’s presence and live with Him forever.
*The Book of Mormon warns that anyone who adds to the pure doctrine of Christ (repentance, faith, baptism, endure to the end) cometh of evil and the gates of hell are ready to receive them. “3 Nephi 11:37-40”
*The LDS church has added numerous requirements, commandments, covenants, etc. to this pure and easy to understand doctrine of Christ.
*The Book of Mormon does not teach that giving 10% of your income is a requirement for salvation or exaltation, but it is free for all. “2 Nephi 26:27”
*The LDS church teaches that unless you give the church 10% of your income, you cannot enter God’s presence. You are not allowed to make covenants with God in their holy temples (necessary for exaltation) without paying them first, even though we must pay for the tokens therein which is forbidden in the temple endowment
I could go on. There is so much more. Please do not judge the Book of Mormon by what you THINK it contains, but by what it ACTUALLY contains. Since 1837-1845 the LDS church began to contradict it! They have added greatly to the holy word of God and perverted the way of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is one reason why some still hold to the Book of Mormon as sacred scripture, and have questions about today's LDS church. They are not one and the same.
@@gwengold8154
The truth is that there is no salvation in any church. There is only salvation in Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12
It is good of course to be concerned about your eternal destiny and that of those around you.
God doesn't separate his children on different levels or planets. 😢 Read Revelation 21 and 22.
I never heard of that shift. A few years ago, I read about people going orthodox or TLM.
Thank you for.. resetting my brain.
I'm a faithful/faithfilled member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Raised Protestant (Presbyterian - old school) who has had many friends & family in all denominations, Christian and otherwise.
No longer working outside my home has allowed me to get "a little TOO settled" in my thought processes. Appreciate the help dusting off the cobwebs 😊
So when you converted from Protestantism to Mormonism, you went from believing that Jesus is the eternal God to believing that he is a created being and brother of Satan?
Thank you Pastor Jeff for opening up your time and heart to your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
I’ve been waiting a long time for this conversation to happen and it did not disappoint!! Awesome conversation! I really appreciate the inter-faith work that both of you do!
I stay in the church because I love my neighbors and those with whom I worship. For those who have left because of "hypocrisy" I say to you we are all hypocrites, or we all have been hypocrites. The gospel is supposed to function as a mirror and not a magnifying glass. Look at your own faults and your own sins so that you can correct them and draw nearer to Jesus rather than using a magnifying glass to look at everyone else's faults and sins. It's why Jesus said to remove the beam in your own eye before looking at the motes in everyone else's eyes. Staying in the church provides opportunities to love and to serve those with whom I worship. I can always love and serve anyone else along the way in life's journey outside of church. Just my two cents.
While I appreciate your sentiment and your reasons for staying, you also need to realize there are opportunities for community and for serving within other churches as well. As far as hypocrisy, I do agree we can all be hypocritical and we should be looking in a mirror. But when we perceive the hypocrisy to come from top leadership that is what Jeff describes as things that “obstruct Jesus”. That is my experience and viewpoint.
@lorawhitfield6995 I've been physically hurt by leadership, and I have personally witnessed leadership hurt another. I wish you the best in your journey to Christ.
@@LatterdayLamanite even the elect will fall -; that is the leaders too. They are still human. I'm sorry you were hurt. I'm an excommunicated member I'm working my way back. I learned at a young age not to rely on members for my testimony of the truth. Because there will be creepy people who prey on the innocent. I love you and pray for your happiness.
@@TheOneAndOnlyPrussogirl Thank you for your kind words. I am very happy and I love sharing my witness on my channel, which I have been doing for a year now. Take care!
Your two cents aren’t worth much in this inflationary time
Loved Jared's comment about bringing together all truths, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, etc. as always, with caution, but i have seen more points of light penetrating the veil of darkness recently. God is hastening His work, and we all need to be listening and learning.
Excellent conversation. I remember years ago picking up a few scripture commentaries written by evangelicals and Catholics and they taught me so much. I love the idea that we can learn from each other and build faith and knowledge.
I have been in and out of the LDS church over the last three years. This conversation helped me to feel seen. I really appreciated this conversation. Thank you
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
16:50 - Claiming that those who leave the faith were only ever religious and never truly spiritual is judgemental, likely inaccurate, and appears to represent a lack of understanding or empathy on the part of the Dr. Halverson.
Evangelical here, and never MO. You may want to listen to that again. Dr. Halverson didn't ever claim that those who leave the faither were only ever religious and never truly spiritual. He said, "I wonder if the reverse was true -- that you were only religious and never truly spiritual." The words "I wonder" is not making a claim. It's a curiosity.
I have such respect for you Pastor Jeff. I can feel your love for the Savior and your work to help those in your church to develop relationships with Christ. I really enjoyed watching you two having a real conversation about what we all hope for and that is a sure witness of Christ. It is so nice to not hear what divides us because it should be what unites us and that is Jesus Christ. As a Latter day Saint, I love having the Book of Mormon as a needed two witness of the Savior and his work of salvation for his other sheep. I also love that temples have been restored to the earth for us to be sealed forever to our loved ones. Keep up your great work Pastor Jeff!
Jeff, one of my husband's dear friends, a convert to the LDS Church, would absolutely agree with you! He loves the doctrines of our church, but he gets so frustrated because we don't talk enough about Jesus being at the center
He says, "Where is Jesus Christ? I want to talk about Jesus!" And he's right.
I agree, some beliefs believe he is God I believe he is the son if God….
We are a lay church, we are not professionals. We could do better for sure but everyone is on different levels of progression.
2 Nephi 25: 26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
We DO TOO talk of Christ! He is the center of our faith!! ❤
I NEVER go to church these days where Christ is not the center of the message. Sorry that you do not hear the same message in your area. Talk to your Bishop
@@esm1817 I'm not sure what you are talking about. Everything at church is about Jesus Christ!
I continue to love your content. SO respectful, fair, and humble. I cannot thank you enough!
Loved this thank you both! The Church of the Lamb of God:)
Thank you Pastor Jeff! What a great conversation! One thing Bro Halverson said at the end is exactly what I’ve been thinking about your channel and that is that these interfaith relations and collaborations are exactly what Jesus Christ would want, and I believe can be very instrumental and preparing the world for his coming. So thank you for the work that you are doing!
This conversation was one of the better ones I've heard between Pastor Jeff and an Academic like Jared. As a former member, I too had many inter-faith discussions much like what Jared was sharing with Jeff. It was impressive to hear Jared mention he'd like to hear more from former LDS... because there is much to learn from former devout members of the Restored Gospel. An enlightening conversation. Good job Pastor Jeff!
Thanks to both of you! Two powerful teachers of the importance to follow Jesus. Bless you both.
IVE BEEN PRAYING FOR THIS CONVERSATION TO HAPPEN!
Jeff this was my most favourite discussion yet. I appreciate these thoughtful discussions. Thank you 👍
I like the connection, this is what Christianity is about, man.
In my humble opinion (before watching the rest of the video) the answer to question is that we have shot ourselves in the foot by spreading slander about each other. When we do that we hurt the other church, but we also hurt our own church because most people can spot hypocrisy.
United in Christ, we transcend differences, embracing shared faith, love, and purpose to reflect His light in the world.
I ran into Jared Halverson quite some time ago while trying to find some insight while trying to find material for my own lesson. I want to say the brother Halverson is very astute in his knowledge of the scriptures. I greatly acknowledge his information that he knows and his ability to teach. Thank you brother Halverson for all you do. Jeff I want to compliment you also because you're a great teacher and you also have such great understanding of the scriptures and also human psychology to be able to help people understand the pathway to Jesus Christ. Thank you brother for your help today and thank you for all that you do all the time to help all of us.
49:30 Jeff, I add my testimony to Jareds, you are come to the kingdom for such a time as this. Please help the lost sheep that leave us 💟🙏
I love Love LOVE that you got together with Brother Jared Halverson. I have to proclaim a big AMEN and hallelujah (we can do that as saints, right? 😋) to his comment at 49:15 - “I believe you have come to the kingdom for such a time as this”
I love how he digs into proving contraries and I identify with what he has to say about marrying catholic culture with protestant culture / jewish & Christian and how the balance would be found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Bro Halverson has been such an inspiration to me but I have to say so have you Jeff! You open up those lines of communication and you’re pointing me to Jesus Christ!
I’ll see you in the Celestial Kingdom good brother!
I want so badly for someone like Jared to just admit there are real issues and legit reasons to leave. And I’ll admit that there are legit reasons to stay. But for him to sit there and say people who just wanted to leave and use church history as their excuse is kinda slimy. I wanted to stay. It worked for me. And I’m so sick of people writing me off just because I found polygamy, racism, homophobia, and the church’s attempt to hide its hundreds of billions from its members to be deplorable. Being Honest and open about current and past issues is the only viable path forward, not gaslighting. I hope you read this Jared.
I just heard his “lord is it I” part. That was honorable.
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
@@joesimpson9230 So Joseph didnt practice polygamy? Joseph didnt say we must learn to become Gods? Joseph did and taught a lot of things that the BOM doesnt cover. Joseph was killed because he was defrauding the public (glass looking) and church members (Kirtland Safety Society) and taking many wives, some too young and other that were already married. Even by todays standards that shit will get you hung, so to speak. You Sir are out of your mind with the above comment.
Did you catch when Jared first said that the church has covered the history people werent familiar with that caused them to leave the church, and then Jeff said that shortly after the CES letter came out the church produced articles (Gospel topic essays) that confirmed the truthfulness of the things covered in the CES letter? Which is it? did the church teach of multiple first vision accounts or the extent of josephs polygamy or was it necessary to produce new articles to shore up the flooding?
@@jessea2871 I did catch that. It’s amazing that members claim “we’ve always known this stuff” when I was a missionary in 2003-2005 and was told it was mostly anti Mormon lies. Incredibly frustrating. And Jared saying the info has been out there is disingenuous and dishonest
My favorite video from Pastor Jeff! And I love Brother Halverson! I want to be like both of these great men: kind, understanding, and full of love for our Savior!
Oh Brother Jeff,
If there was only someway we could help you see how the temple brings us closer to Christ and helps us honor our commitment to living the gospel more fully. It’s a beautiful “appendage”.
Christ loved the temple And was fiercely protective of its holiness. Why would he do that if those covenants that are made in temples ancient and modern are not important? There will be many more open houses where the public can go and see what’s going on in the temple. We invite you to come and see. ❤
I felt like that also. If only! If only Pastor Jeff could understand the gift that the temple is! Maybe one day he will finally see. ❤
In the Bible, God commanded that only one temple was to be built. It must be in Jerusalem.
Acts 17:24-25 God doesn't live in temples.
Jesus Christ said, It is finished. The debt we owe to God has already been paid in full with the precious blood of Jesus Christ.
There is no need for a worthiness interview, a temple recommend, an Endowment Ceremony, secret grips, tokens, signs, handshakes, and passwords, making covenants, tithing, and all the traditions of men.
The 4-inch thick veil was torn in two from top to bottom by God himself when Christ died on the cross. (Matthew 27:50-52) Every believer now has direct access to God. 🙏🏼 💕
(Hebrews 4:15-16)
@@Elizabeth-rk3do that's a lovely summary of what you believe. It is not what I believe. The temple ceremony is 100% about Jesus Christ. It binds us to Him and gives us His strength to overcome the adversary.
Evangelicals don’t believe that because the Bible teaches the church is the family of God not a building. It’s actual people.
I am from IL. Also around St. Louis. I went to school in BYUI and also Utah State. I was a missionary and relief society President. I love the scriptures. And I am still a Lesbian.
Under the authority of Dallin H Oaks in BYU people like me were forced to go through conversion therapy. They were made to look at porn while they had electrodes placed on their balls or they were forced to vomit. I see great Truth in the Church. But I also see great cruelty.
My Home ward is lovely. I love all of them there. But, I have become more spiritual. I would rather seek Christ on my own. And I also feel closer to Christ then I have ever been. I am 35. Not in my early 20's. I haven't formally left the church and I likely won't take my name off the roles but ....I love to meditate now.
I connect with Christ when I meditate and read the scriptures. I've come to see Truth is much simpler. Love God and Love your fellow man. That is my code.
Why are people leaving faith in general? Its not just our faith, but nearly all church and religions seem to be in decline in an increasingly secular world. But I also see an increase of people returning to the faith as well.
Ryan Burge at Graphs on Religion has been trying hard to figure that out.
Yet, the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is the fastest growing Church on the Earth.
Satan
@@Vail-AspenSUVrentals Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. If Islam continues to grow at its current rate, some people think Muslims will outnumber Christians around the year 2060.
I assume Latter-Day Saints have the fastest rate of convert baptisms, but I’m not sure. I assume Islam is growing so much due to birth rate increase. India just passed China in population within the last year which is wild.
@@natedawg2020we did until around 2000-2004. Then it slowed. Now it barely covers those who died or left.
Excellent conversation! Jesus Christ is the answer! He is the focus! All the appendages of our faiths should focus us on His love, His teachings, His truths, and His focus on our Heavenly Father.
Listen, this guy Jared is brilliant.
True, but is he preaching a gospel that denies the grace of Christ and is really no gospel at all? (Galatians 1:6-9)
Thank you so much for doing this vid. I've been studying with Jared since the day he started Unshaken and he is the best instructor I've ever had. I was born into the church in 1961, and fell away when I was about 15 and brought it back into my life at around 20 & have stayed as close as I possibly can at 63 now. I didn't gain my full testimony of the gospel until I was about 22 and I thank the Lord daily for that. I love how Jared teaches. I have learned and understand the scriptures so much better now and am so thankful for finding Jared.
This reminds me of the tension between George W Pace and Bruce McConkey. George taught the need to build a relationship directly with Christ through born again experiences with the spirit. Bruce rebuked him publicly to ensure that LDS members continue following the prophet and stick to the program.
I love the LDS church but recently removed my name because less than 25% of church was about Jesus. Instead I felt bombarded by “follow the prophet”, temple = iron rod and church being one true church.
Jesus said in 3 Nephi 11… if anyone preach more or less than the doctrine of Christ as his doctrine, it is not of Him. We must have Christ as our foundation 100%! If not, Hell stands ready to receive us. I feel compelled to follow Christ and His words, rather than the “prophet’s” questionable and changing doctrine and policies.
John 10:27-29
I don't exactly agree with your conclusion there, about "prophet's questionable and changing doctrine and policies", but as an active member, I do agree that we often make the "appendages" (as per Joseph Smith) of our faith the main focus, while keeping Jesus in the side notes. I don't think this is intentional, and I don't think it ever has been. I think the honest belief of those who like McConkey have pushed for a focus on the "appendages", have done so with a belief that those appendages would lead people to Christ - I'm sure that's true for a lot of people, but I know there are also plenty who've had the opposite experience.
With that said, I can recognize that there's an ongoing effort by the Church to reshift focus back to Jesus Christ. We can see it in the abandoning of the nickname "Mormon", we can see it in changes to the temple endowment, messages at General Conference, etc.
Some life-long members think this is the Church trying to be more mainstream, and blend in with other Christians.
I think this is the Church becoming what it was always meant to be.
@@Elizabeth-rk3do Beautiful scripture! I feel that. The scales have fallen from my eyes and the scriptures have come alive to me. Interestingly, it was the Christ centered messages and stories of the Bible and Book of Mormon with prayer that allowed me to have ears to hear and eyes to see.
God is Great and he will teach anyone that is willing to humble themselves to His way rather than remain a biased apologist for their church or existing beliefs. Did we learn nothing from the example of the Pharisees?
I believe Joseph was called to translate the BoM but not produce the D&C. The message of the BoM is not restoration of the Gospel but rather restoration of Israel. We are missing the boat and looking beyond the mark with temples, “church is only true church” and Cultish follow the prophet doctrine. Christ is the way… there is no other way or name. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is actually so much more and less than I preached on my mission. More Jesus, less covenant path and vicarious covenant path. Jesus said to feed, clothe, comfort even the least… temple work is easy compared to the real work of Christianity.
@@joaop.barata6062 there is a battle going on for the heart of the church. Listen to general conference. In April about 25% of the messages were about building a relationship with Christ. Most of the rest focused on Temple, covenant path, church is true or follow the prophets. Unfortunately, loyalty to the prophet is a strong temptation for members and leaders. Think about Israel wanting to follow Moses instead of going up the mountain to God themselves. Moses said, I would that you would all be prophets. Thus, the lower law was given. The Church is in the same predicament. Unless they actually read the scriptures without bias toward false church doctrines and cultures, they will remain at arms length to God and will be sealed up to satan. Christ’s words, not mine. 3 Nephi. All mankind must be willing to trust Christ’s words rather than man’s in order to have a relationship with Christ. 10 virgins parable.
@spencerall Jesus Christ never required anyone to believe the Book of Mormon is true. I have read the Book of Mormon and God has revealed to me that it is false. It contradicts the Bible. It also contradicts the Doctrine and Covenants and the later teachings of Joseph Smith.
The Book of Mormon teaches that death seals a man's fate and the heathen are saved without baptism. Temple work is without merit. "It is appointed appointed man once to die and after that the judgment."
Great conversation guys. As a PIMO Member, I go for my wife and kids, but explored our religion for 48 years... the Gospel Topics Essays was the final straw for me... Essentially the organization of the church admitting that they were not truthful with us growing up... Yet preaching integrity really opened my eyes. The rock in the hat, I spent years calling BS on people who brought that up, because I was always taught about Joseph Smith sitting behind a curtain, translating from the plates... only to know now that was not really true... And now in at the point where I question why do we even need the gold plates if they were not translated directly from. And all I hear is president gordon b hinckley's admonition that it's either all true or none of it is. At this point it makes much more sense than none of it is. Which saddens me to no end.
Hallelujah!!! I’m favored and blessed with $60,000 every week! Now I can afford anything and also support the work of God and the church.
Oh really? Tell me more!
This is what Ana Graciela Blackwelder does, she has changed my life.
After raising up to 60k trading with her, I bought a new house and car here in the US and also paid for my son’s (Oscar) surgery. Glory to God.shalom.
I know Ana Graciela Blackwelder, and I have also had success...
Absolutely! I have heard stories of people who started with little or no knowledge but managed to emerge victorious thanks to Ana Graciela Blackwelder.
The part about " I want to leave and am looking for a reason to leave" is not the case for me and many others. For me, it was " I do not want to leave, I am scared to leave because it is my home and where I've found love, and I'm worried that good things might not exist elsewhere; but I feel compelled to take a step of faith to be honest with myself and my husband about what I understand of church history and the book of mormon." I was in a very vulnerable place where I had lost family, country, and social stability. I loved the church and I wanted to contribute there still and continue to experience that beautiful brotherhood and building the kingdom of God.
But when I sat down with my mexican husband to read the Book of Mormon, I didn't want to say anymore that the Book of Mormon was written by his or other American native's ancestors, because over the years and since my childhood, I have accumulated too many evidences that it's not true.
I understand this! When I felt my faith unraveling, I kept it to myself because I was terrified. I spent a week or so miserable with my own realizations that I no longer agreed who the idea of God I was being taught. I was scared my church friends couldn't help me fix my faith. I didn't want then to feel their faith unraveling too. I thought I must have misunderstood the doctorine. I went to the missionaries and they only confirmed I was correct about the doctorine. I stopped believing in the doctorine from then on. I instantly felt like I didn't belong in church now that my beliefs were different, and I walked away. That was in 2016.
@@melanieapolonio5257 I spent the last few years wondering the power of trying to believe in somethibg they can't believe. I argued some civilizations and individuals benefit from certain religions. What happenes to those who cannot benefit?
I think most people nowadays will agree with you @melanieapolonio5257. However, I believe Jared's point is that there are usually emotional reasons (maybe not with everyone) for leaving the church as well. Jared probably talks to mostly young students and their understanding is limited, so in turn, his perspective is limited as well. What's interesting to me is that I can do a deep study of the CES letter and many points of church history that are difficult to swallow and come away with a stronger conviction that the church is true. (I have even made a document with all the CES letter questions answered.) I find plausible explanations that support the church, there are also plausible explanations that don't support the church. To conclude either way, I have determined comes down to personal reasons. Those personal reasons or choices lead to people on a path of faith in the church, faith in something else, or doubt.
Maybe the pandemic was to bring us out of the buildings and into relationship with God. ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Great closing comments …. “The Gathering”. We’ll all be gathered together as one in Christ !!!!
Wonderful, thank you. That last excerpt was harmony.
I have been I "faith crisis" in one way or another for 30 years since my mission. The last ten years I really dug deep into what I DO believe. Hello Saints, and Jared Halversen have been here at the right time and has been a huge part of my faith reconstruction. Not rebuilding what was, but rebuilding in a Christ centered hungry for knowledge sort of way. Thankyou for this content!
I don't think I heard my reasons for leaving the LDS church in this conversation, so here's one apostate's perspective:
I was always the kid in my friend group that took church teachings seriously and really tried to live the gospel and study my scriptures nightly, and I would frequently pray to receive spiritual confirmations about things like the BOM, important events in church history, and guidance for my own life. Halfway through my mission I was starting to see a pattern about receiving a spiritual impressions to do some action along with a promise of what the result would be, then I would follow through on the action, but not see the promised result (from big life decisions to small things, like how to find a new investigator). I was approaching it as earnestly as I knew how, and yet after so many failed promises, I lost trust in my ability to perceive spiritual impressions. I also saw many others in different faiths claiming that they had received spiritual impressions that their church was true, using the same methods I had been using. After a few years of pondering about all these experiences, I eventually concluded that spiritual feelings are really great for confirming bias, but terrible at confirming facts. The rest of my faith crumbled from there.
Jesus Christ said, Follow me. Jesus is the good Shepherd. Jesus will never let you down.
John 10:27-29
God bless you.
Hi! I'm an ex-mo too. I loved church. But I "fell away" in YSA when I realized some things about temple marriage that made me really reflect on who God is and who I was being taught about. I don't think think God is who the temple says God is.
Yep and don't forget, they will say it's your fault, not their method that is the problem.
Thanks for sharing your experience, I've seen several comments of people not feeling heard because this video is a discussion between two believers about what people in a group that neither are a part of are experiencing.
I've known a lot of people that have a similar story. I wonder if culturally we and leaders have done members a disservice in the way we sometimes systematize how God works with and communicates with His children. It's bold of us to believe we can create a one size fits all formula that we somehow require God to follow when it comes to receiving "spiritual" insights. I also think that our culture of "feeling" the spirit has done so much havoc in recent years as mental and emotional illness has skyrocketed. When I was a missionary I thought I was getting all sorts of promptings and that I needed to repent about a lot of things or I would be unworthy... Turns out I just had undiagnosed OCD. I found myself in a similar place where I started to not trust ANY sort of "prompting" I was receiving. I have found more success in that department as I have learned to live with it and changes some of my perspectives on God but I feel for anyone who feels that pillar collapse where you suddenly can't trust in "the spirit." Thanks again for sharing.
@@unicorntamer2207 What did you learn about temple marriage?
The gospel net gathers all kinds of fish, and just because we’re in the net at one point doesn’t mean we’ll endure the challenges and stay.
That said, our injunction from the Lord is to bless them that curse us, to do good to those who hate us, and to pray for those who despitefully use or persecute us.
Both of you are fantastic examples of following this godly injunction. 😊. Keep it up!!!
Loved, LoVed, LOVED this program!!
Really appreciate your interviewing brother halverson! He has helped me so much in my own scripture study And strengthening my relationship with my Savior Jesus Christ. Brother howverson's conversion to the Savior is deep and abiding. And he truly has a love and appreciation for all because of his conversion Jesus Christ.
And like Brother Halverson, all those restored teachings and principles unique to the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints that others might find to be an obstacle to Jesus Christ, I find them vital and really deepen my covenant relationship with my Heavenly Father and my Savior Jesus Christ. When my heart is humble and I really want to be taught, I find Jesus Christ in all of those, so-called appendages, be it the temple, the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, our living prophet's teachings...they only enriches and does not detract my path towards my Savior. They all keep me very focused on my Savior Jesus Christ. Quite beautiful, really, when really given the chance, like all teachings of God.
Great conversation! Really appreciate that Brother Halverson is given the chance to talk. He is always uplifting and edifying. So thank you for giving him the platform to do so.
Well-spoken! The church is growing rapidly. People are seeing the beauty of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and coming into the fold at a much higher rate than they are leaving. There is no shortage of strength in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in spite of those who have fallen away. There are also many, many stories of wonderful people who have left and then returned. I personally have a dear friend who has returned and has so much more light in her than ever before. She has allowed herself to learn things she has never learned before.
Groups like the LDS church, Scientology, Jehovah’s Witnesses love members who self sensor like this!
Way to be “faithful”! Pat yourself on the back! You are so strong for protecting yourself from the truth about these groups.
You could just ask an apostate why they left instead of calling them an apple.
@unicorntamer2207 sorry. Just meant that as an analogy. I know they are people. I'm not offended by and don't feel offense toward people who fall away. Only by people like Jeff who try to shake people's faith by making them feel like it's a bigger epidemic than it is.
The church doesn't actually talk about why people leave. Plenty of apostate have explained they left. They post on social media and make videos, and yet, the church just says, "It's because they wanted to sin." It's not. Although, conducting myself how I feel is right for me is definitely a plus.
We've been called worse than apple, by the way.
@unicorntamer2207 I've never heard someone from the church say "they left because they wanted to sin." People leave for many reasons. Most people I have known who left, were offended in some way, which led to looking into anti propaganda. People in and out of the church are not perfect.
I agree with Jared. I love to smell the flowers in other people's yards and I follow many people who are of other faiths. I love them and I know they love the Lord just like I do. They receive revelation just like I do. God loves them just like he loves me. I'm grateful to be a Latter-day Saint and for the truth that has been restored and I am grateful for the truth that is there for all of us to seek and find through the Spirit of God and through the Son of God. We need to let go of false beliefs on both sides of the fence and just look to the Lord and live and love one another. These are the last days and we don't have much time before Jesus comes. Let's focus on getting ready for him by loving and serving one another.
Mark 9
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
I would like to see numbers. I dont think its just young people that are leaving. I see many middle aged adults leaving. I loved this discussion and so glad leaving the church was addressed by Jeff and Jared. I like Jared am just happy when people find Jesus❤
Around the 43-minute mark, there is a discussion about proving contraries. In the Jewish world, there is something called Tiferet, sometimes called beauty, which is the balance between two sides, like justice and mercy. I am not Jewish, but it is a truth we in the Christian world can learn from.
I’ve had some good friends leave the LDS church, and I noticed that they were leaning in ways that seemed outside of the general teachings of Christ. I have strongly encouraged them to find some church to attend and they have mentioned that they are looking for a church to join. I would much rather have my friends in a non- LDS church than in no church at all.
The blame is not on the believer, the blame is on the truth claims that just don’t hold up. For me it is simply about the truth, the truth will set you free.
This exchange is excellent, and the progress is encouraging. Pastor Jeff and Brother Halverson both have wonderful hearts. I hope Jeff one day experiences the full power and blessings of the priesthood.
Thank you for this discussion! I wish there was a place for respectful dialogue like this between members and ex-members.
I consider my faith crisis the hardest and most beautiful experience of my life. Though I left the church, I experience what I was taught to label "the spirit" more consistently now than any other point in my life. It really can be a wonderful thing to leave the church, and I wish my member friends and family appreciated that a bit more.
It's sad that members view ex-members as enemies to the church. The church has become their idol and can't be viewed as just a facilitator of teachings, doctrine, and spiritual enlightenment.
Leaving was hard for me too. But I have no regrets of leaving. I'm in a happy marriage because I left and I've been discovering who I am as opposed to who I was told to be.
What an incredible, beautiful conversation. I felt the spirit throughout the entire conversation. Thank you. ❤
I lost almost all faith about 7 years ago. I realized I had never been taught how to make a coherent argument for the existence of God. it's something the LDS church never taught me. I was taught to rely on big emotional experiences as proof. Those emotions became untrustworthy and so I lost almost everything. I discovered the transcendealists like CS Lewis and William Lane Craig who helped God click logically and coherently. I had realized then that I could slowly rebuild my faith in Christ and have done so and still am to this day. I discarded many of the teachings of the LDS church that were not coherent and feel a bit isolated there as I still attend for the cultural comforts and community.
I was never able to get the magical emotional spiritual experience. I concluded that such things happen to others.
My faith in the LDS doctrine unraveled a little over 8 years ago. Now I'm exploring other things in philosophy and different ideologies. For no, I'm a content agnostic.
I would encourage you to explore Cold Case Christianity by J Warner Wallace. You may find something to put your faith in and encouragement to make another change.
I was hoping both of you would cross paths. Both of you have enriched my faith and beliefs in Christ
Amen to your comment at 31 minutes!! that is why I have left!! I’ve been freed by Jesus and the simplicity he offers through his doctrine not through adding or taking away as the LDS church has done. The Book of Mormon is the anti LDS I read to free me from the church. I think it’s beautiful and valuable to still hold on to the BOM as valid. It has a purpose.
It's frustrating because the Doctrine and covenants said teach this generation only about Faith and Repentance. Only Faith and Repentance. And yet they all just kept asking for more. And that lead to a formation of a ton of rules and regulation and additional Doctrine that can bring light but more often than not created more stumbling blocks.
I was brought up in a different faith; being devout was an individual/personal characteristic of mine; while eager to learn, because i knew there must be more!
I think an interesting question to ask is why do many who leave Mormonism become atheists specifically. I would argue it is the pernicious teachings of the church in regards to it being the “one true church” that lead those who finally realize it’s false to reject God entirely since they’ve doctrinally attacked and undermined the ability of one to have faith in Jesus without the church. This is why Mormonism is so dangerous as a religious system.
Try the words of the Book of Mormon against the standard of the Bible...you will find the doctrines agree.
Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God who worshipped Jesus Christ and translated the Book of Mormon from plates of brass preserved over time by the hand of God. The Book of Mormon is complimentary to the Bible and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ...the only name whereby we can be saved.
After Joseph Smith was murdered in June of 1844, Brigham Young led many saints to SLC, Utah...while many others did not go (including Emma Smith, Joseph's only wife). Brigham Young was a false teacher and prophet who introduced several abominable practices into his denomination, including polygamy, men becoming Gods, God once being a man, blood atonement of men, a heavenly mother, and secret penal oath temple rituals. He corrupted the true History of the Church to pretend that those teachings came from Joseph Smith in order to gain support....and many today are still under that deception.
D&C 10:67-68
Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church; whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me but is against me; therefore, he is not of my church.
@@joesimpson9230 I have tried the words of the Book of Mormon along with the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price against the standard of God’s word in the Bible. It fails miserably and it’s why I’m no longer Mormon. Joseph Smith was a false prophet, just like Brigham Young, and all the rest that came after him. They were both abominable men who introduced abominable practices.
I have appreciated the respectful interfaith dialogue you have encouraged and established to better understand lds members and their doctrine, but this episode draws the line for me.
Personally, I have been more edified by hearing David Alexander's earnest and sincere conversion to the lds faith by acknowledging apostolic and prophetic authority or David Boise's ability to recognize the fruits of the lds faith.
To state that the lds faith obstructs the view of Jesus is disappointing, when I know that our church is His restored church and is very much centered around Him and the covenants he wants us to make to draw closer to Him.
You have made many interesting videos and are probably the first evangelical who have reacted to us with the most earnest reverence and curiosity. I enjoyed watching you read the Book of Mormon and even encouraged me to read it again and love it more.
I can forsee you attracting more lds dissenters, inactive members, or skeptics in the future, but I wish you the very best on your quest to better understand us. God bless you and your family.
Love these conversations, but I'm very annoyed at Halverson's dismissal of those of us who leave Mormonism over historical issues. The doctrine and teachings over the pulpit and in official manuals contradicted and flat out lied about the historical facts for decades. That broke any sort of trust we could have with the organization once we found out that they conveniently ignored the weirder or morally abhorrent actions of historical leaders of the church.
We were taught to be honest. The church was hypocritical on that aspect. Why should we ever trust anything else they say would be true ever again?
Halverson tries to say that most people who have historical issues with the church _actually_ had some personal issue and the lies of the Mormon leadership are just an excuse. That has not been the case with any former Mormons I know.
I wish people like Halverson would listen to us and not make giant assumptions about why a huge portion of us leave. It's to be expected though, and I've basically given up on my Mormon friends and family ever actually understanding why I left.
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
It's to save face.
About time! Excited to watch.