How Robb & House Stark Could Have Won the Game of Thrones
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 มี.ค. 2023
- Liam explains how Robb Stark could have defeated each of the following Kings, Joffrey, Renly, Robb, Stannis and Balon to have won the clash of kings and the game of thrones.
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• How Stannis Baratheon ...
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Which House should we do next ? :D Hit that Thumbs up and leave a comment so we know we're ont he right track :D
House Greyjoy, they definitely have the most difficultly
House Martell, but they don't take on the Lannisters head on but through plots and assassinations.
the tyrells
The martels
Stannis
Now that you mention killing Jamie, it actually should have been the move. They killed Ned, granted that was joffery, but that showed that Robb and the north let that slide. It’s war, like Roose bolton said “the high road is very pretty, but I’m afraid you’ll have a hard time marching your army down it”
Exactly Dane, no quater should be given to an enemy that gives you none, honour is a fools prize at best! Thanks for watching! Liam
How about somebody staged a murder on Roose Bolton before the actual war & make Ramsay Lord of Dreadfort?
While I know Robb would follow his father's belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword, he could have permanently secured Lord Karstark's loyalty by allowing him to behead Jaime Lannister and avenge his sons.
@@LordBloodraven It certainly would. The Starks are a force to be reckoned with as a faction. Its their pesky morals that screw them over 😂 -Liam
If Jaime was killed, so would be Sansa
Walder freys offer was genuine. He sent 5000 troops to help robb, led by his sons and grandsons. You don't do that if you're not picking a side. I think he picked his side with robb, then as every other great lord before him including tywin had done already, robb spat in his face so walder just decided "fuck it, I tried playing the game nice, now I'm just going to start killing."
That’s a valid point. Even Roose Bolton tried to back Robb. The problem was that Robb was high & mighty with honour to make his gains obtainable.
I hold my hands up 👐 Tom is right on further reflection. Although I think Betrayal was always on the table for Walder, unlike houses like Umber and Manderly! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips indont think so, without Robb marrying one of his daughters until the end of the war Walder could always cancel the marriage if Robb was losing or if he was defeated in battle, that would leave him with a less strict punishment from the Lannisters than if he had married a daughter to Robb instantly, that was his escape route until Robb married Jeyne Westerling
@@TheFandomeClips What would you do in Walder position as lord? While supporting the north is all nice and dandy. His primary loyalty is to his house, not the Starks. I think that most lords expected Walder to betray the cause the moment Robb started losing the rebellion.
I like the 'killing all male lannister" terms. Unfortunately it was highly unlikely. The starks aren't that ruthless.
This theory assumes Rob knows all those who side against him present and future. Rob wouldn't have had a reason to be against Freys and Boltons. Also the Tyrells. The only move they made was marriage to Renly which isn't a direct move against the Starks.
I would absolutely love to see the chaos cersei would cause when she learns Jamie was killed because of Joffrey and Tywin.
RIP Sansa Stark
It would be fricken AWESOME, but ig the only consistency is that she has to always hate Tyrion
Bro all the starks would be dead.. Tywin ain't playing around.. he defeated stronger foes than Robb.. people actually believe that robb stands a chance Tywin was the most powerful man in Westeros after the death of Robert
@@rias.gremoryyy it doesn't matter. All the Starks were going to be killed either way the moment the rebelled against Joffrey, whether they kill Jayme or don't. So kill him and you sent a message. You kill one of ours, we'll kill yours too.
@@rias.gremoryyy And yet he still couldn't defeat him without Bolton and Frey... Did you watch the video?
Dealing with Dani is fairly easy. You've just gotta wait for her terrible memory to kick in. "Dani kinda forgot about the Ironborn fleet." -> Dani kinda forgot there was a north.
You wait for het 45 chromosomes to kick in
@@LeandroBoonPretty much. It turns on and off.
😂😂😂😂
@@LeandroBoonYes, another annoyance for me is sansa
sansa didn't do anything @@zebajemia-slif4089
I definitely think Tom’s right. The Freys are constantly talking about how all the other houses spit on them for how they rose to power, so Walder would absolutely take the chance to take his family from lesser nobility to northern royalty status. It just fits his character more.
Aye I'm noticing a pattern of "Tom is right" I've given him one free "I told you so" 😂 for future use. Thanks for tuning in! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips i disagree think he would do whatever he can to keep from being on one side or the other at that point i dont think he would pick robb yet yes jamie is gone but tywin is still leathal think robb would hafta show a little more to sway him or atleast post pone it long enough to get a raven gone and back
Tywin would end up offering Jamie to the Freys, and he'd have a whole connection to one day have kin that could be kings. Tywin would still win, and Robb would die.
@@codyturner9741 Tywin is lethal but Jamie is the heir to Tywin. If he’s dead then there’s high possibility that Lannisters start to fall apart internally (Tywin brothers could have made a move to become house patriarchs) plus it’s less point of other houses to make alliance with them as they don’t have an heir and it’s volatile situation by itself. So that’s a possibility as well
Walder could try to ensure that his daughter does not become pregnant. But Robb of course can just kind of like.. take control of the situation by separating her from her family and manipulating his wife.
Or you can always just kill the Freys for daring to blockage you.
Robb is THAT character, first 'King in the North' since Aegon’s Conquest 300 years before, who you truly believe will avenge Ned against the wrongdoings of the Lannisters but the Red Wedding throws EVERYONE for a loop. Now in hindsight the seeds for the Red Wedding were most definitely planted but with his death he became a martyr. Stories will most definitely be told of the 'Young Wolf', a boy King, calling his banners and rebelling against the throne and earning the respect of friend and foe alike, and his brutal end to life which came at the cost of honour. With his death marked a changing of the guard in the North and Riverlands, Winterfell and Riverrun.
True. It's going to be an interesting story, the Young Wolf who became the King of the North but was betrayed and murdered. But how his bastard half brother avenged him and completely destroyed the offending houses on the battlefield.
Facts. A promising man, though one who fell for love 😓
@@akshaykumarjha9136
Indeed
@@akshaykumarjha9136 it has a Targaryen dynasty lore to it as in betrayal wise and a stark lore about the young wolve avenged by the white wolf
the cost of honour?
It's interesting to think how many Lannister generals (aside from Tywin) would have been afraid to even face Robb's army if he straight up executed Jaime. Most would assume that if they surrendered the North would try to ransom them. This was quite common in our own medieval times and Lannister generals would have the money at home to pay their ransoms. So they would happily wage war against the Northerners as if it's any other job. But Robb killing Jaime, the ultimate hostage, completely overturns the board. Every one of those lords knows to face Robb is to face death, and most would likely prefer a more peaceful option once Robb had won a few battles, putting them at odds with Tywin who would be hellbent on revenge.
Yet they likely wouldn't have the power or means to over throw Tywin or change his plans even if all the lesser lords banded together as his grandson was king and he had the entire 7 kingdoms minus the north and riverlands at his disposal.
@@A_Black_Sheep94 Overthrow him? Definitely not. But feudal lords depended on their vassals in order to rally troops. If the generals of those troops just don't want to fight anymore, then it makes Tywin's job a hell of a lot more difficult.
Additionally, many would be afraid of the consequences Tywin would enforce for deserting the field of battle or half arsing their command positions. But if Robb's able to make them even more scared of him, making sure they know that if they lose, they die, then Tywin ordering them to fight him when he keeps winning battles becomes a lot less appealing.
They wouldn't switch sides or anything, but some of them might just choose to ride home and see whether Tywin or Robb comes out on top.
@@A_Black_Sheep94 He did not have the entire seven kingdoms, he only had the Crownlands and the Westerlands, the Reach hadn't committed any troops or resources to the war, neither had the Vale or Dorne, all three of those were neutral. The Stormlands was in open rebellion against him. The Crownlands don't really give many soldiers, its lands aren't very populated other than Kingslanding and most soldiers there are used to defend Kingslanding against the impending invasion.
That really just leaves the thirty thousand men that Twyin has after they had lost the first few battles.
@tater8251 He had gold which would have gotten them whatever they wanted for nearly any lord whether men, resources, or what have you. He doesn't need to have direct control of the entire 7 kingdoms, though if Jeoffry was king it would all technically belong to Tywin since Jeoffry is a tool. I think you're trying to split a hair here. You get the point I'm saying.
I suspect other Lannister subordinates would understand that the killing of Jamie Lannister was retribution for the killing of Ned Stark. They would understand that they, personally, didn't rate the same treatment (unless Robb made a public statement to that effect.)
Once Jamie is killed, there is a zero percent chance that Sansa lives. ZERO.
Strong disagree. And for reasons of gender. Killing a female hostage is pretty much unheard of. Sansa would always have value to the Lannisters for the same reason she did in the books: she gave the Lannisters an easy pass to taking Winterfell by marriage.
@@rickdesper Except for the whole part where she was married to a Lannister, the Lannisters were allied to the warden of the north (Bolton), and did NOTHING of the sort to try to claim the north. They literally gave it to a Bolton instead. Meaning they already have the north allied with or without Sansa..
@@rickdesper Not to mention Missandei was a female hostage and Cersei didn't think twice to take her head within a fortnight. I think you're just wrong on all accounts in this comment.. xD
@@TheDoctorinspector Missandei was big noone, Sansa is Stark.
@@semanel2472 A big no one? Girl, sit down. You're embarrassing yourself..
If Rob were to capture the mountain, and if he were to send him to Dorne so Oberyn could have his revenge, do you think Dorne would ally themselves with the north?
It would certainly be a good start to securing a bond. They both want the Lannisters dealt with so they have goals in common. The issue i think would arise when dorne has to pick between Rob and Dany. If my memory serves me right the dornish were famously loyal to the targaryns so they may break faith with the North if forced to make that choice. Thanks for watching! -Liam
@@TheFandomeClips they were also the only one of the 7 kingdoms to kill a dragon and were the only one to not be taken over by force, granted when they joined willingly it was through marriage so who knows what would happen there
Personally Oberyn would be convinced but his brother would not be.
@The Fandome Clips makes sense. That said though, once it would come to light that Jon Snow is actually Aegon Targaryen, do you think they would switch from Dany to Jon's side?
@littleindio not sure. Jon may be a Targaryen but he is also the son of Rhaegar and Leanna Stark, not Elia Martell. If they found that Rhaegar forsook and set aside Elia for Lyanna, they could blame Jon as the reason the Rebellion happened or take out their anger on Rhaegar on his son since Rhaegar and Lyanna’s love story ultimately led to Elia’s death along with her children
The main reason they lost was because of Stannis and Renly. Renly should have been Stannis’s hand and heir to ensure the Reach alliance. And Stannis can avoid killing his brother. If Stannis just went straight to Kings Landing with the fleet, the city would have never made any of the preparations on time, and any of the merchants and lords loyal to Baratheons would have not been captured in the antler conspiracy.
Wait for our baratheon vid Rico, we go into that very thing! Thanks for watching- Liam
George is very anti war game of thrones and asoiaf is meant to represent that no matter what there are no upsides or winners to war
@@user-op6kt8pg9y aye ASOIAF is far from subtle about that theme. It permeates through both the "good" and "Bad" characters of you can even categorise them as such. Liam
The war would have been over quick and the story not as good since the Lannisters stood no chance against Stannis and Renly combined let alone allied with the Starks too.
@@fox2569 Aye, moral of the whole 5 kings story seems to be, swallow your pride and keep your promises!
If Robb and Renly could come to a truce before Renlys assassination and have a ceremony in front of their bannermen recognizing each other as equals (or as close to equals as two Kings would allow themselves to look). There is a very big chance that after Renly is murdered the Tyrells come to Robb with a marriage pact with Margery and declare him King of the seven kingdoms. With Robb almost lucking his way into being king of the full kingdom instead of just half. People really respect and trust the Starks to do the right thing so while some bannermen may go to stannis I think most will see his claim as a lost cause and back the Tyrell/Stark alliance. That morning Robb crushes Stannis like Renly would’ve done and then been at the gates of Kings Landing by the end of the week/Month with the whole kingdom at his back except for maybe Dorne but even so Dorne hates Tywin so much they might even side with Robb if he had the backing of 4-5 of the seven kingdoms already. Ah a man could dream lol
I'm 90% sure Dorne will join with Robb. After the sack of King's Landing, Ned was the only one who wanted justice for Elia and her children, surely Doran would consider that. Man, imagine Oberyn leading the army and fight along side Robb. That would've been awesome.
@quangvinh5202 I didn’t even think of that but yeah that would be awesome. Then I could see Arianna marrying Willis Tyrell (I would say Bran but idk if she would go for someone so young), Edmure still marries Roselyn Frey to make up for Robb marrying Margery, Quentin Marries Sansa. Knowing Robb I don’t think he kills Tommen or Marcella so I think he would marry Arya to Tommen (make him lord of the rock) and Theon to Marcella. Edric Storm would be legitimized and made Lord of stormsend (I don’t think you have to marry him into your family since he already owes his legitimization and lordship to Robb but I could see him and Theon arranging Yara just to try to connect his house to the family in some way). I think you save Bran and Rickon a few years to see if any houses try to rebel that you might need to try and connect to you or marrying Bran to a highborn northern lady (maybe Mormont or Karstark) and give him Winterfell since he’s the second oldest male and Robb now has the iron throne. Rickon should probably marry someone in the Vale though I could see him turning out like the Blackfish and not going through with it or like the Rogue Prince were he marries her but doesn’t stay there or even like her or something lol. What say you?
The one issue I see with this is the geography. Robb would've had to make the marriage pact with the freys way before any alliance with Renly could have happened. And as we have seen by the time he crosses the twins and gets far enough south to send anyone to meet with Renly it gives enough chance for Stannis to kill Renly and take command of his forces. Also once Robb breaks that marriage pact is when he loses the frey army. Killing Jamie like this video suggested was an option but I don't think Robb would have ever done it. The main problem fro Robb was the marriage pact with the Freys and then geography. He was just to far away to make any alliances with any of the other major houses, without having to make that pact with the freys first.
Moral of the story there’s a big difference between being honorable and being soft. Honorable doesn’t mean nonviolent, it just means being honest, having a code and sticking to it.
I think that Catelyn was a good influence on Robb. In the book there is an entire chapter devoted to Catelyn teaching Robb to lead and I don't think Robb would have gotten as far as he did without her. Maybe later on after she had given him the initial push he needed she could go back to Winterfell and help Brann rule the North but she was a must have in the beginning of the rebellion.
She should go home after the Frey arrangements. And Roslin Frey should have traveled with Robb, so the betrothal would be real to him.
@@ricopena2053 I agree. She had already done what she needed to do and the Frey girl and Robb could have had some time together.
@@ricopena2053 the freys were going betray them from the start.
So was Roose.
Roose sent Robbs army into a trap before Robb did anything.
I thought they Freys were hedging their bets. If Stannis took King’s Landing, I don’t think the Freys kill Robb. Stannis wouldn’t abide a noble house killing an ally in battle. Also, Renly would have land taken from them and lower their status. Roose might because he’s Dracula, but I am not certain he acts without the Freys.
Roose’s hold on the North is tenuous at best, the other houses are undermining his every move in the fight against Stannis and he was forced to send out his strongest allies, the Freys, to fight Stannis. I don’t think Twenty Goodmen is happening in the books.
The Lannisters accept the Frey offer because they have their backs against the wall. In Feast, they are scornful of Waldur Frey’s demands in the Riverlands and are constantly mocking them. Plus, the Red Wedding is seen as one of the worst acts by the common people who are sure that the Lannisters were somehow involved. One of the Sparrows says as much during a sermon.
She should be sent home war isn’t for mothers
I like that it all centers around Robb, he is one of the best and most badass characters
We lost him too soon. RIP Wolf King! Thanks for watching! -Liam
Poor one out for the young wolf... so close.... yet so far. 🍷
Forever Young.
Even after Catelyn released Jaime Lannister, Robb could have still maintained the Karstark loyalty. Lord Karstark wanted to kill Lannisters, so let him. Not the boys, but Casterly Rock and Lannisport. They had already taken the Crag (in both the books AND the show), which is just north from the Lannister seat of power. Had Robb ordered an attack on Lannisport and then a siege of Casterly Rock, Lord Karstark would exact his revenge and the Boltons would be given an opportunity to prove their valor (and loyalty).
Never lost a battle 🤦♂️ bro was my favorite character and to see him go out that way HURT…yea everyone else too I guess meh but ROB WAS MY BOY 😩
He's a bloody thirsty idiot, who got lucky with a magic wolf.
Regarding the Baratheon choice, a smart play could have been to simply wait for the victor, when Kat arrives the two brothers were a few days away from going to war with each other, Kat/the north could have sat back and waited until it was over then ally with whoever came out on top
Roose was loyal to Robb initially. It wasn't until continuous mistakes from Robb and Stannis losing at the Battle of Blackwater Bay that he decided to betray him
Roose was loyal at first, if not completely. I think roose is a guy who keeps all options open, loyal but willing to betray for his benefit at any moment. Like when he lost the battle of the green fork, he used mostly men from other houses, so to lose less men from his on army from the dreadfort
@@shaycase1834not truly if I remember correctly. The 2,000 men killed in the divergence to capture Jaime were led by Roose and he made sure none of his perished
@@pcharl01 you remember correctly
@@pcharl01 That battle was different in the books. In the Books Roose Bolton had the majority of Rob's forces under his command when he attacked Tywin as a diversion. Rob only had a handful of Bannermen with him, and he was able to trick Jaime into an ambush with a much smaller force.
Roose was an opportunist and stayed loyal with the Starks because there weren't any better options he could go for.
He couldn't do much but ride with Ned Stark during Robert's Rebellion and make a name for himself. Aerys was mad, half of Westeros was rallied against him, too risky.
That he didn't do anything during the Greyjoy Rebellion goes without saying, odds were 10 to 1.
Roose always had that red king blood in him. He just waited for the right moment
I think Walder Frey would've agreed to the marriage if he offered to do it there and then. At that point, Robb was the most powerful force and also the red wedding only happened because Robb married Telisa. Walder was a proud man and being related to The King In The North who would most likely win the war, he'd jump at the chance
Its official Tom's head will no longer fit through the door 😂 I give up he was right. Thanks for watching! Liam
Even then Walder was a scheming old man. Don't let his old age and pride get to you
@@koreancowboy42 he’s very old bros like 100
iirc Jaime & Tywin both commanded armies the size of Robb''s which means they outnumber him by a 2:1 ratio at min.
Robb had one of the smallest armies in the war besides Stannis(pre Renly's murder) and Balon, the Lannisters outnumber him by like 2 or 3 times and the Tyrells outnumber him by like 4 times, he had zero chance of winning the war unless he was going to just fall back North of the Neck and not even bother defending the Riverlands, which he wouldn't do
1) Catelyn keeps Jaime
2) Robb keeps his marriage vow to the Freys
They may not have been enough to win the war but surely enough to not get killed
Jamie needed to die, and Robb let the Karstarks do it. The only way to get Tywin to take you seriously. Tywin would have blamed Cersei and Joffrey too by his eye-for-an-eye total war understanding.
honestly he probably would have one as long as he made peace with stannis
It's funny that you mention it. When my boyfriend and I talk about Game of Thrones, we often discuss whether the Starks should have killed Jamie. My boyfriend says killing Jamie would have been a very smart move for the Starks. He gets upset with Catelyn for just letting Jamie go without discussing it with anyone and without any guarantee that it would really help her daughters. I, on the other hand, can understand Catelyn better because she acted like a mother. But I also agree that she took a risk, because Jamie could have just cheated on Catelyn.
While I understand being sympathetic with Catelyn, it doesn’t change the fact that she lost the war with that move. That makes her a good character (flawed and multifaceted) even if I hate her for it
@@abelrussell5556 yeah, but you can't kill Jamie.
Nah, killing Jaime would have been stupid. He's a valuable hostage. If Catelyn hadn't release Jaime, I don't think Tywin would have risked the Red Wedding because the Starks at Riverrun could have executed Jaime as soon as they found out they were betrayed as I'm sure he would have been kept there.
@@IsaixLD7 exactly
The fact he didn’t cheat her and spent all that time and energy keeping his vow in the end was one of the best character development situations in any show/series ever though
Another potential option for endgame is that they will side with Dany. This is possible because the Starks originally made their oath to the Targeryans and used the fact that they were no longer in power to justify their move for independence. When faced with a Targeryan with three dragons and a huge army they could change their mind and maintain their honour.
Dany's father killed Robb's grandfather and uncle, its the same injustice Eddard recieved.
@@TheChristianImperialist She could apologise and acknowledge he was mad because the Lannister’s are gone by the time she’s back in this timeline her “conquest” will be a bit different this time. She had people on her council that would have had experiences with the starks if she can’t remember any herself. There’s also the info of Jon being her nephew and with her under the belief she is the only one left of her bloodline it’s in her favour to keep him around.
Specifically because that Targaryen is a young unmarried woman. It's not that important whether Robb swears fealty to Dany or not as their children will have it all either way.
In one of tyrions book chapters it’s heavily implied that Tywin thought Jamie was lost and that’s why he made Tyrion hand because he was his only son
Aye very true, although there is a big big difference in THINKING someone is lost and KNOWING someone is lost. I've experienced it one too many times in real life to know it hits very different. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and watching! Liam
That's what Tyrion thinks at least, and his views of his father's actions are very biased.
@@TheFandomeClips Don't think that's the case for a battle-hardened individual like Tywin. In the end, you go with the optimal strategy for what you think is the most likely scenario. Is it a 95% chance or a 100% chance that Jamie is dead? Doesn't matter. In 19 out of 20 scenarios, you are wrong if you assume he is alive.
It's simple Robb could have won by ignoring his mother and sending her home to raise bran and rickon the son's that actually needed her and not marrying Talisa
One of the times Robb ignored Cat was when he sent Theon to Pyke to ask Balon for help. Look how that turned out. If Cat had went to Winterfell, she'd have probably died making the connection Robb has the Riverlands and the Eyrie less secure. Like it or not, Catelyn was vital.
The show villified Cat. In the books, she is Robb's mentor
Why does everyone think that marrying a Frey would solve his problems? Edmure married a Frey. He ended up a captive in squalor, having to cooperate with the surrender of his family's castle. The only reason he ended up back in his lordship at the end was through things totally out of his control.
The Freys are treacherous and self-serving. Walder's castle is "the Crossing" and is called "The Twins" because it consists of a bridge with two identical castles at either end. Walder Frey is Lord of a Double Crossing. This is the author telling us that they are traitors by nature. They plotted this with other enemies of the Starks. Roose didn't stab him, because of his marriage, and they played Tywin Lannister's theme song when they started the massacre. What are they going to do, tell Ramsey Bolton's father "the deal is off, Robb's going ahead with the wedding." Are they going to tell Tywin and Joffrey "Sorry, we're not going to carry out our plot, we've got a new son-in-law!"?
If Robb marries Walder's daughter, it's going to be HIS wedding with crossbowmen playing Rains of Castamere. Except he doesn't have a Stark uncle holding Winterfell whom they will need Robb alive to get him to surrender. The Lannisters promised Winterfell to the Boltons and were plotting to have Tyrion take it later anyway, so they don't need Robb alive for anything. His wedding would have ended with him being dragged not to the honeymoon suite to consummate the marriage, but a quiet room to be murdered. Or, given what assholes the Freys are, possibly the battlement to watch his army being massacred while feasting, before they push him over.
Besides all that, if, as many people seem to believe, the story's message is "honor gets you killed" why would they have a major character die for a dishonorable action of breaking a promise? If Robb's murder was the outcome of his own actions and choices, that completely contradicts "honor gets you killed" because he is getting killed for DIShonor! No, the only way this all makes sense is that Walder Frey basically sold Robb out to get in on the winning side after the Lannisters had taken the Baratheons out of play and made an alliance with the Tyrells and Martells. It had nothing to do with anything Robb did or didn't do, and everything to do with Walder's selfish and treacherous nature.
As for sending Catelyn home, Robb actually did need her, and the boys were more or less okay at home. Catleyn didn't ruin anything for him. She's a victim of her society's expectations, which tell girls growing up that as long as they follow the rules and are dutiful and faithful wives, daughters and mothers, everything will work out and they will be taken care of. So when everything is falling apart around them, because the author wants to the Starks to lose everything in order to set up their dramatic underdog triumph, Catelyn blames herself. And way too many readers simply take her self-doubts and recriminations at face value and blame her.
@@sheru.punjabi She f***** him over when she released Jamie even in the books
Bonus: if Rob Manager to kill the mountain he could send the head to Prince Doran.
With the Lannisters seemingly losing the war the Martells might want to get their vengance quickly, before Tywin is dead. With the head of the mountain they would be more inclined to ally with the north
I don't think Robb knew about the hate the Martell had for the mountain and the Lannister
You mentioned in the end that the Wall events would play out similarly but if Jon is stabbed to death there is no one to resurrect him while Stannis and Melisandre are down south.
jon wouldnt be stabbed
Well, Jon gets stabbed because he brought the remnants of the wildlings south because the Northern army was destroyed and thus couldn't reinforce the Wall (and so Jon used the wildlings as replacements). If the Northern army wins and can spare men for the wall, maybe he never even does so.
@@JB-xl2jc That's in the show. IN the books they stab him to death for trying to get involved in a war, which is directly against their code. Many weren't happy with him letting the Wildings through, but that alone wasn't enough for a mutiny.
Well... do u think these jackasses would try to fuck with Jon, knowing that Robb is KotN? I reckon they would have had a brotherly drink and some laughs, comparing how one left as a bastard and now is commander, while the other just a young heir and now fking king. Yeah i dont think they would have had the balls to as much as sneeze without the Stark bros approval.
I can't believe you have not mentioned rebuilding or at the very least fortifying Moat Cailin.
Also, if you're going to send Lady Stark away, then I suggest raising the Black Fish as Rob's chief counsellor.
Great suggestions! Thanks for watching! Liam
If the Lannisters are on the defensive, why would one divert resources to reinforce Moat Cailin? That would also be discouraging to the Tullies, who could interpret that as a sign that the Starks are preparing for the eventuality that they might retreat that far North.
@@keegeebee5392 Fair point. I think they would use it the same way The Vail uses the Gates of the Moon, then have it garrisoned by Riverlords and northerners.
@@keegeebee5392 because they’d only have to have the reeds fortify it as a precaution incase Tywin tried to storm the north
@@ryanduffy1176 It would, certainly, protect the Starks from a Lannister attack. But, by preparing to fall back that far, they're telling all of their allies "we are willing to give up your lands to save ourselves" while also diverting resources away from the war effort. It would be a bad move politically, and may result in some riverlords plotting against or openly betraying the rebel cause - a far more real and present threat than Tywin marching his entire army North.
"Bran can become the 3-Eyed Useless" I- 💀
😂 I mean I don't know what else to call him lol. Thanks for watching! Liam
The deal with the Freys always bothered me. There is literally a wood next to the twins, so Robb and his 20.000 men could have just build some rafts and crossed the river wherever they liked to.
It's not well communicated in the show, but in the books the Trident is an incredibly dangerous river to cross. Sure, they could try with the rafts, but not only does that take an incredibly long time, but a lot of men will drown in the process, depleting his already miniscule force.
Counterfactually yes, but in the show he was still trying to make it to King's Landing before Ned Stark was killed.
But didnt the battle of the trident happened with the Targarian forces crossed the river and met Robert forces in battle?
Wouldnt that mean the trident can be traverse or is the castle build on that point and the only point where it can be crossed?@@Aredel
Most surely those woods are on Frey lands so they can't just chop them.
He needed to be able to cross the river with ease and speed whenever they needed. Thats the strategic value of the twins, whoever holds it has the best options as far as manuverability goes. Crossing without an alliance would have left him and his army stuck trying to cross a dangerous river anytime they needed to travel north or south of it.
you can't just dismiss the Lannister's basically holding Sansa hostage as the sole reason Robb didn't kill Jamie.
That's why you leave Catelyn at home. Holding out hope that they wouldn't kill Sansa after they already killed Ned is naive. Killing Jamie is the best option. As Rob's counsel would have wisely encouraged him to do. Thus keeping Karstarks at your side.
@@duecansam1248 Agreed but killing Jamie turns Sansa's death from a possibility to a guarantee.
@@kevyndelva2782 charge it to the game🤷🏾♂️🤣
@@duecansam1248 In the books Catelyn was repeatedly sent away by different people, who gave her prudent orders, yet she inserted herself into the conflict time and again.
And she was left at home, when she stayed in Riverrun, where Jaime was held captive. A much saver place than the field.
@@kevyndelva2782 Disagree. Tywin might be extremely upset by it happening, but he isn't a fool. Joffrey killing Ned makes it justified. If he still has hopes for winning, he NEEDS Sansa to attempt to bring in the North after the war.
The only things I would change/add would be to make sure he has a strong, legitimate heir, possibly by legitimising Jon, but also it's not impossible that they could hold off the Targaeryans in the same way Dorne did, by essentially using guerrilla tactics and their knowledge of the land to quickly strike at valuable targets before disappearing back into the snow.
It's a thought and it's speculated it was also harder to invade the north for the Targaryen's because of the frequency of Wargs. Warged Dragons are a scary prospect. I like the legitimising Jon idea and wish I'd stuck it in and explored it a little more than a quick point at the end. Thanks for watching! -Liam
I dont think they could do that. When Aegon got to Westeros, Torrhen Stark, the last King in the North, kneeled because he saw the bloodshed and eventual defeat that the Targeryans will produce. There is no hope of winning against dragons, at least not from the Starks since we see the situation in the past.
@@hectordavidhernandezgonzal9356 Aegon and his dragons were a far greater threat that Dany and her dragons.
For one thing, Aegon's dragons were older during the war; and for another far more important thing each of Aegon's dragons had a rider. Dany's dragons are strong, but they lack tactical know how. With the exception of whichever dragon she happens to be riding, they really only act as brute force; and they act as unit. Aegon's dragons, given each had their own rider could act tactically and could safely separate - something that actually did happen. Aegon, his sister, and his queen were able to lead multiple armies at the same time with each army having a dragon and a rider.
There was no winning against that. But just Dany and her dragons? Compared to Aegon and his dragons, she's barely even a threat.
The dornish used guerrila warfare essentially retreating from their strongholds, poisoning wells and overall taking a very strenuous approach to avoid direct confrontation from the royal army. In the northerners case I believe it would be much harder to mobilize enough men for quick engagement and retreat due to snow and weather conditions, not to even mention the means of supplying an army through winter. Yes, winter has always been the norths biggest ally during war for defensive purposes, its chokepoints and strongholds certainly make it almost unconquerable from the neck upward, but its a whole different story when you include dragons.
@@indigomoraes7105Yes, but if I recall Dragons are not fond of the weather in the north. Then there is the age of the dragons, they are not that old. Powerful? Yes. But not Vhaegar, Balerion, or the third dragon of the conquest. There is also a distinct lack of tactics on Dany’s end. She would have a hard time with it, especially in supplies, disease, and weather attrition. Sure she could burn the strong holds, but as with Dorne it would not work. There is also historical examples of hard winters to observe as well. So the argument is a bit more… Do the Starks have the guts to fight a hard battle of Fabian tactics against Dragons.
I love how dealing with the Boltons basically amounts to gerrymandering or “packing and cracking”
Aye, all I know if is that if I were Rob I'd have been keeping a closer eye on the house who has been my ancient enemy for hundreds of years, regardless of how nice and cordial the current Lord of the dreadfort is with me, their dam banner is a flayed member of house stark if my memory serves me right, not the guy I want to trust with big jobs and large forces 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
It's a great strategy really. Have the honor of serving as our vanguard. You will probably all die but you will redeem your selves in our eyes. Boltons will have no choice and will lose a lot of men and be forced into an honorable alliance.
I want to add a couple of points to this. First point, after the Robb-Stannis truce ends even if Stannis have a hard time attacking the North, the Riverrun however is open to him. Robb, as the king in the North & Riverrun (Riverrun did come under him), has to defend them. As their king and for the blood bond between them. Stannis has to siege Riverrun and bring Robb to south again. And if he has the Tyrells, he'll have the soldiers needed for this campaign.
Secondly, successful negotiations is the best case scenario against dragons. However, there's one way of dealing with dragons if all negotiations fail. Do what the Dornish did. Guerilla warfare. Dorne did not bend the knee to Aegon the conqueror and his successors for....100 years or so? I forgot. Anyway, they didn't face the Targaryen army in open battle. They vacated their castles. The dragons burned their castles sure, but there wasn't anyone in them. They ambushed, raided soldiers on the ground. IRRC, more targaryen soldiers were killed while trying to occupy Dornish lands than during the invasions. In the end, no matter how many dragons you've got, to control a region and it's people you need men on the ground. They even managed to killed Aegon's sister queen and her dragon.
Yes, Dorne lost a lot of people and still came under Targaryen rule. But they did that on better terms than any other kingdom, with a diplomatic / marriage alliance. The North will suffer greatly. But it's an option.
No, it's not an option.
The North is not Dorne, where the climate is always warm, nor is it arid like Dorne, with little of value to destroy. It has huge open lands, which are required for the small amount of farming the North can manage.
The North is also on a very tight schedule. The longer they fight the south, the more time is spent not focusing on the conflict beyond the wall, which is where the north needs to be looking. The North also needs to keep an eye on the calendar, since as all Northmen are aware, winter is coming, and the northern population cannot survive being out in the cold of winter, because exposure to the winter is certain death. Even in the novels, where fighting is almost entirely in the south, the individuals in the northern army are extremely aware of the need to end the war and complete one last harvest before winter.
The North has no navy and without southern food and supplies, it will eventually starve.
The “send Ramsey” was kind of a younger in cheek line but I think that is the strategy for the Bolton and Freys. You have your Northern enemies fight each other and if Roose does betray you he has to do it then and join the Freys in which case you have the war for the North right then and when it’s over you indisputably have united the North.
I'm pretty sure Walder Frey would actually be quite happy with a direct marrige, he saw nothing wrong with marrying his daughter to Edmure, he has no real shortage of daughters and there's nothing stopping him from going behind everyones back and doing the red wedding if he thinks he's gonna loose.
I think with direct marriage he's gained some lawful advantages that become burdens in terms of betrayal. I think if he ties himself to the starks legally through blood he gains a lot of what tywin can offer him (though admittedly not exactly as much) but I'm not sure if without the disrespect of been snubbed and already having already achieved significant status that the risk of turn cloaking becomes worth it. Especially if Rob follows our suggestion of ethier depleting or redistributing the Boltons. Thanks for your 2 cents (they help us make the flowing videos more air tight logic wise) and thanks for watching! Liam
It would be very hard to do a red wedding when there would be no wedding to happen at all because the marriage already happened so it would be hard to try and get them to do it
@@bayarsejar5831 Red Box Social?
@@VampireNewl what?
I think if Robb had gone to treat with Renly himself, he'd've left with the Tyrells at his back and possibly the rest of Renly's army as well. Obviously he'd be made to marry Margery immediately but I imagine the Tyrells would see Robb as the horse to bet on given how he was beating Tywin. Plus he'd finally have a safe place to stash Jaime
Agree with everything apart from a safe place to stash Jaime! those Tyrells are slippery devils 😂 Thanks for watching!Liam
@@TheFandomeClips the Tyrells are slippery but they'd never betray someone their daughter is married to
I think if rad had treated with renlybhimself he would have at least had an alliance with stannis or renly even if it meant giving up the northern crown again. And at best and alliance with house Baratheon and and the lords of the storm lands and the reach
This isn’t true…the tyrells wanted an alliance with the future crown and not the north
@@chigbomichaelofomata2874 yes but the tyrells at their core want the best growth for their family, if renly dies and the Lannister are not an option, the tyrells will revaluate and restart their waiting game, as they have always done. and if stannis looks like the winner their only option is Robb or Dany and at that point they do not have the infos to go for her
There is one thing I think could factor in when Dany comes knocking.
Brandon Snow seemed convinced that his weirwood arrows that he crafted with blood magic would be able to kill Aegon’s dragons. He never got the chance to test this because Torrhen bent the knee.
I think that in this scenario, bran would come south, tell them about the vision of Brandon Snow, and they would repeat it, going on to kill Drogon. Rhaegal and Viserion escape.
Rhaegal later ends up bonding to Jon, and Dany is left riding Viserion. Leaving us a dragon rider showdown between aunt and nephew. Resembling the duel between Daemon and Aemond over the God’s Eye.
Epic!!! would be a sight to see! Thanks for watching! -Liam
Rhaegal would never betray Daenerys, she had a special bond to all three of her dragons despite only riding Drogon. She wasn't called Mother of Dragons for nothing.
@@darth3261but it’s stated dragons only bond to one person and one person to dragon fully so there’s definitely a chance Jon being targ he could bond a dragon of hers easily
One thing I always think of, even the way it went down in the books, is that it's well-established in this culture that a king can have more than one wife. I think Robb should have made clear to Walder that Jeyne/Talisa was his lady wife and would be the mother of the Stark lordly line while his Frey wife would be his queen and her offspring the King in the North's royal line, the heirs to his throne. He could've named Walder Warden of the Crossing, and maybe made his rank equal to that of Riverrun rather than subordinate to it. That would have been enough to keep the Freys. If the Freys never desert, neither do the Karstarks, and without the splintering of his forces Robb would've probably won the war the way he was already planning to.
Can you tell me which king other than Aegon the Conqueror had more than one wife?
@@darth3261 Maegor the Cruel did
Polygamy is seen as a grave crime by the Old Gods and the Faith of the Seven and even the Targaryens stopped doing it after Maegor.
It wasn't necessary to tell Walter Frey about this. Robb could have done this before the marriage, securing his relations with Frey and his mistress (Talissa). Like Bolton's bastard
Hey there, a couple of points. 1) Alliance with Renly and/or Stannis: losing a Kingdom, nevermind two, is a huge loss to the Iron Throne, as it basically sets up a precedent for independence for the other 6. This is the reason why Renly's proposal wasn't to receive some genuflection from Robb, but to let him style himself as King while also remaining a vassal - albeit more autonomous - to the Iron Throne. This is the same situation as with Dorne, where Doran is called Prince (because that was their title, but it'd be the same as King in their independent times). As such, Robb would be put in a difficult spot: losing the Riverlands (as the IT would likely not allow two kingdoms to unite) and the respect of the North (since they made it clear they want independence) or fight once more against the Iron Throne, this time controlled by the Baratheons. At this point they might be in luck, with the Vale siding with them, or with Stannis as King, which basically assures no great house would be loyal to the man. If Renly is King, however, and the Tyrells are with him, it's going to be a difficult war.
2) Geography: the Riverlands aren't the North. The main issue here is that the Riverlands aren't as defensible as the North. The rivers don't cover all of their borders, and they don't have other geographical chokepoints to defend. This means that in every situation (against Stannis or Renly), Robb would have to fight against an enemy focused only on him in a difficult terrain to defend. If he stays there, he might lose due to numbers, if he leaves for the North, he will have lost the respect and control of the Riverlanders.
You made very good points, but I think that on top of everything you said, the North needs the Vale to side with them as well. Enjoyed the video a lot and absolutely love these what-if discussions!
Thanks for the input 👍 jolly good stuff! Yeah this bloody universe is so hard to "what if" scenario, its so well crafted and a hell of a lot of thought has already been put into the logic, so its dan hard to deviate and keep it as consistently logistically sound 😂 Thanks for the kind words and thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverse Absolutely! And we can't even factor in everything that happens with Bran, which is the main thing in the final fight against the WW (D&D kinda forgot of course) as you already mentioned in the vid!
Yeah the riverlands are kind of the norths biggest weakness.
Was it ever explained what their long term goal (besides not getting raided) was? Were they planning to become indepent as well, or join the kingdom the north? Or would Edmure just have sworn loyalty to Stannis or Remly?
@@Luwi1996 no that's another major problem with the war is that Robb kinda had zero concrete goals once Ned was executed and so the whole point of calling his banners was gone, and then the Northern Lords in their foolish fervor crowned Robb as King and they began an aimless war of independence against the Iron Throne. The problem with this is that they just do not have any real goals for the war besides become independent which is pretty vague, and this is only made worse by the fact that they have way less manpower and resources than their enemies, and the Riverlands are a nightmare to defend since it's being attacked from every side besides the North and the Vale.
I don’t think this scenario included the Riverlands becoming part of the North. They just united to protect and then avenge Ned Stark. Once Stannis is King, he may even allow them to remain neutral in his war against the North, as not doing so would just force them into Robb’s hand.
I actual prefer this length it has more......DETAIL!!!
😂 thanks for watching! -Liam
And also more passion, more energy, and more footwork…
Great video.
The smart part is not let Catelyn INTEREFERE...she has been Robb's reason for failure Every Single Time!
Ned ordered her ahead of time to Warn certain loyal men to 'ready' the North, she failed even that.
Order her under House arrest especially since she can look after Rickon who NEEDS her.
Leave the Baratheons to do as they will...when Renly comes out as Victor offer a truce and seal it with a potential marriage pact for the Tyrells if they help recover Sansa.
Hopefully by the time that is done we can recover Arya as she should have been travelling North and hold her as a potential bargaining chip for the Martells; tell Oberyn he can go Lionhunting and have Arya enjoy her life there.
Tell Bran to hold the North and to ensure its safety place one of the Karstark boys there as protection and have Luwin send Ravens continuously, with Catelyn there let her keep her eyes on the Greyjoys and let her marry Manderly to set down even closer ties and have Rickon learn how to sail and raised there.
Dealing with Walder by indeed make the Marriage pact instantly and again not let it be made by Catelyn who is a Tully and her Father was never friends with Walder.
March in as King of the North, Lay Down the Frey's chance at gaining honour, lands and some respect by their alliance and sliding with Robb. Robb can have his pick, his army grows instantly and neither the Freys nor Boltons will rebel at this point. Hell tell Bolton that if Ramsey serves him loyally he will knight him...bam legitimization problem solved and now release him to Hunt down the Mountain. Let crazy deal with crazy strong and hold the leash of his rise to power to keep him in line.
Imagine the scenario, where after the successful war, Robb abolishes house Bolton and places new house instead with the Theon in charge. And because Theon always wanted to be Stark he takes a new name Greystark (Greyjoy plus Stark), thus reviving the extinct cadet Stark house and becoming one of the loyal vassals.
And why would he do that if Roose didn't betray him.
@tezz2698 I am not saying, it doesn’t matter. I like the scenario and the idea of the outcome
Sounds like bad fanfic, destroying a northern house without motive and planting a Greyjoy in its place would be a very unpopular decision, even though nobody likes the Boltons, without motive I don't see the other houses supporting Robb on this.
At least use Ramsay as a motive
@@darth3261In that kind of situation, every House immediately starts thinking "what if I'm next?" Yeah, the Bolton's are assholes, but what if the Stark in Winterfell turns out to be an asshole someday, and Robb's abolition of House Bolton has set a precedent that they can do this, and new Asshole Stark can turn around and do it to families that are not evil, but who have crossed him.
Also, on the occasion that such a punishment is merited, such as for rebellion or treason, just slotting in a guy who brings nothing to the table except his friendship with Robb is also going to aggravate the other Northern Lords. After all, the Boltons are not going to hand over the keys to the Dreadfort and slink off into oblivion without a fight. The Starks are going to have to fight and crush them. And to do that, they need the help of their bannerman. So the Manderlys and the Glovers and the Karstarks and Umbers are all going to have to bleed and spend money ... to make Theon Greyjoy a powerful lord? What's in it for them?
If Robb is going to wipe out the Boltons, MAYBE he can put one of his favorites in as Lord of the Dreadfort, but he's going to have to hand over a lot of the Boltons' former lands to the other lords or else grant them other favors.
And there is also the point that the Greyjoys were historic enemies of the North and Theon came to Robb's attention as a hostage for his father's compliance. Presenting him as a candidate to replace the Boltons is going to make all sorts of noble families object and present their own candidates. What about Robett Glover, younger brother of the master of Deepwood Motte, who seems to be one of the more accomplished commanders in the North. Or the Greatjon's uncles, or Wyman Manderly's younger son Wendel, or one of Rickard Karstark's sons or his uncle Arnolf. All good Northmen, whose families have served House Stark loyally for centuries. Who is this punk kid, the youngest son of a glorified pirate, that he deserves to be elevated over their own?
This was the perfect length, i enjoyed the short quick ones but always wanted more
Thanks Konka! We're looking at branching out to lengther videos all round! Thanks for watching! -Liam
that is my opinion(books): 1.don‘t give Bolton any Comands (he was the reason 12000 deaths). 2. tell edmure about your plans to trap the lanisters in the westerlands. 3. try to get other lords of vale 4.keep jaime at riverrun save. 5. keep theon
6. marry in a better house than westerling
*for 12000
3: Lisa Arryn made her stance clear that the knights of the Vale were forbidden from joining the conflict. In the books, the Lords of the Vale begged her to declare for Robb, but she refused and chose to remain neutral. Defying your liege lord is an express ticket to the hangman's noose.
4: Robb already pointed this out at the start of Season 2. Leaving Jaime behind is an extremely dangerous notion because someone on the chain of command will receive the dreaded letter from Tywin: "Free my son and you'll be showered in riches that you can scarcely dream of. Refuse and your entire family will be put to the sword." As Robb said, he trusts his bannermen with his life, but not Jaime's. The best move to keep him close or to kill him.
@@Aredel you are confirming my point" they where begging her." do you really think timid lisa could do anything against powerfull lords like the bronze john
I agree with Tom with regards to Walder Frey. I think that being married into the North's royalty and the confidence in Robb thanks to his victories over the Lannister's would tip him over the edge and he would throw in with the North. The man's biggest flaw is that he's incredibly greedy and that would be his best offer. An immediate wedding would prevent the Lannisters from dissuading him.
"Would Walter Frey outright say yes to marrying one of his daughters to Rob if asked to have it done right then and there? Or, Would Walter Frey lead Rob on by stalling the wedding just to keep his secret alliance with the Lanisters on good terms?"
The answer comes from the books and is goes back to a time before Walter was "squirted into his mother" by his father.
Walter Frey wanted nothing more than to join his house through marriage to another Great House.
It was usually during meetings/gatherings with the King that House Lords met on the side to discuss arranged marriages between their children when they came of age. That is, every other house negotiated with each other but stayed away from arrangements with the Freys. When approached by Lord Frey, they would tell him, "theyd think about it, or promise to do so with their next child."
The respect and honor that House Lords are expected to receive, was shown in person, but rejected outright in the end.
Enter Robb. Not only was House Frey going to finally join with one of the other Great Houses, but it was going to be to the actual High Lord of the House itself. House Frey would finally get the respect it deserved. No doubt Walter Frey sent the great news via pigeon carriers to all the other houses.
Then, just like all the other countless times throughout the generations of Lord Freys, Rob tells you that the marriage is off, but they can still join ties by Freys daughter marrying one of his lesser Lords.
Walter Frey didn't kill the members of house stark at the Red Wedding for Tywin Lanister even though he made it look like it. He killed them out of revenge because of the generations of disrespect shown to House Frey by ALL the other Houses. House Stark was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time the moment House Freys boiling anger finally erupted.
Tom was right. Walder Frey was always looking for the best option for his house to make them stronger and Robb breaking his oath was a huge slight to him so his revenge was justified in his eyes but the marriage fulfilled would have made him happy. He was so invested he even wanted to marry more of his children to the Starks and gave Robb some of his troops with his own blood squiring for Robb in battle to represent the Freys union to the Starks.
Exactly! We didn't mention it but they had a bunch of Freys become Robbs squires and they were seemingly upset when they were recalled before/during the red wedding.
Hitching his cart to Robb was a win win for Walder, married off a couple of his children to a prominent house and was no longer the butt of the joke when he daughter becomes Queen of the north and with the North + The Riverlands they were going to become quite the power, especially if they got the Vale on side too, its basically the Northern Kingdoms with Walder in a juicey notable position.
-Thom
I agree that Tom is right but who the F is Tom? Your channel is like 2 weeks old and you're already assuming everybody knows who's behind it?
I mean... its like 5 months old i think.... :p
I'm Thom - The Editor and sometimes voice and narrator -
and Liam is the one who Wrote and Voiced this piece, there's 2 of us :D
Welcome to the Channel @Brain D
@@BDnevernind haha we're trying to start off on the right foot and be personable, as much as its more often than not my voice you hear, Tom puts in a ton of work and also gives an extensive 2 cents on the scripts so I like to acknowledge him as much as possible 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverse Awesome thanks for the replies fellas. Are you a show-only channel? Ha and yeah the 2 weeks remark was pure snark, glad you took it well.
I like both lengths. More detail is always great but I really like the short ones too.
Thanks Ddess, we're looking to start been more selective with our vids and make them longer! Thanks for watching! -Liam
I should point out, an unmarried Robb is also a powerful benefit when dealing with either the Tyrells, the Martells, or Dany. If Robb is unwed, they can make peace with the Tyrells. If the Tyrells get Mannised instead, an unwed Robb can make peace with the Martells. And if that doesn't happen, when Dany shows up, Robb can make peace with her through a marriage pact. Perhaps during the White Walker war. And the North would get the Dorne deal in this. Either of the other two essentially cripples Stannis and even gives the North a leg up on the Dragon Lady. Heck, marrying Arianne might even make it where the Starks are on Dany's side when she invades Westeros. That's pretty much a game over for Stannis hard way, but whatever.
Robb should of been betrothed to some great houses’ daughter before the story started
It’s kinda too convenient
I’d say Robb cares more about avenging his father than an independent kingdom.
Nothing is better than hearing your Bannerman yelling the King 👑 in the north that shit gets me hype every single time it never fails
THE KING IN THE NORTH!!! Aye was a hairs on the back of the neck moment! Thanks for watching! Liam
When Stannis takes King’s Landing, Sansa (if she survives) falls under his custody. The Lannisters know that, and that’s why Cersei has planned for her to be killed should the city fall. Sansa isn’t safe; unfortunately the price of a successful Robb/Stannis alliance is Sansa’s life.
I think Littlefinger and Varys were watching over Sansa and while we have no proof I think both for their own reasons likely had a contingency plan to get her to safety should her death be ordered! Fun to think about though and you could well be right! Thanks for watching! LIAM
@@TheFandomeClips There was also the Hound, who was somehow keeping an eye on Sansa
00:04 The Starks have advantageous location and loyal bannermen.
01:57 The Starks must make a strong threat and back it up to win their victory conditions.
03:52 Rob's execution of a captured Lannister advances his cause
05:48 Rob can go full scorched Earth on Tywin without fear of reprisal
07:53 Rob Stark can justify seizing the castle from Walder Frey due to his oathbreaking
09:49 Expose the Bolton's intention to portray early and overpower them with the loyal North
11:49 Feudal society undervalues women
13:47 Stannis will seek his seventh Kingdom back, but can be coordinated with to avoid betrayal.
15:47 Siding with Stannis could lead to short-lived independence and facing Danny's wrath.
17:45 Best case scenario: Mutual respect and peace could be reached.
19:27 Theon's presence on the Iron Islands is becoming a minor nuisance, Bran needs a new plan to escape
Crafted by Merlin AI.
The longer the video the better! Great content
Maybe a way to at least temporarily deal with Littlefinger would be to use Kat and his love for her to get him to bend the knee. Maybe
Its a good idea, he's a slippery bastard though and I'm not sure if his live for Cat trumps his ambition! Thanks for watching (again 😂) Liam
How about making like a partnership between Baelish & Catelyn to see what kind of results work?
Is this enough detail your grace?
Bobby B: Bring me ... MORE!
Liam... bring out the script stretcher. - Thom
More......
Kylo face
MOOOOOORRRRREEEEE
I think releiving the Freys of the Twins by force is the only way to save Robb's ass, seeing how little Walder Frey gives a shit about oaths and that. Though having Frey carry the heir to the North might of course be enough. As for the Bolton forces, divide them and surround them with units of loyal houses. That way if the Boltons do rebel, they're not in the same place, and there are more men who would kill them than support them around them.
Ur analogy is correct…but one thing is for certain…killing Jaime meant disregarding whatever the Lannisters would’ve done to both Sansa and Arya because they’d both have been killed…stannis wouldn’t also have agreed to any form of temporary truce as long as Robb called himself the king in the north
Love the strategic long take on the conflict! You're going to be getting more subscribers for sure
Thanks Dillon! We've always tried to deliver our takes in a "friends sat around the table at a pub/bar talking geeky what ifs" format. We're trying to get a bit more thoughtful now 😂 Thanks for watching Dillon! -Liam
Roose Bolton served Robb Stark well and offered him sound advice only to be constantly ignored and dismissed
That was mainly shown in the show, where Roose knew full well of the situations better. In the books, he’s a whole lot worse person than in the TV series.
Clements already covered it. Yeah he's a touch more sympathetic in the show, in the book (combined with the lore and history of the Boltons and Starks) hes much more of a bastard. Thanks for watching!Liam
- Refusing the offer to be Hand is a presentist notion, that is impossible to foresee the value of from the characters' PoV. All the reasons Catelyn gives to accept apply. They will be on the outs with Robert, and the Lannisters will continue to extend their power at court, until they kill Robert, at which point it's Ned & Stannis vs the rest of Westeros. Not that those are not pretty good odds. It would bring in the Tullys as well, and maybe Renly. The Tyrells, OTOH, are going to be jumping to join Joffrey if he'll marry Margaery, which of course Tywin would go for.
- The Vale was never going to declare for the Starks. Did you even read the books or watch the show? Lysa was entirely under the thrall of Littlefinger, who was looking to wreck the Tullys and Starks for his humiliation as a boy. The Knights of the Vale are not going to listen to a woman or an accountant, so there is no chance of Littlefinger engineering a betrayal by joining the war effort, which is the only reason he would let Lysa throw in with the father who forced an abortion on her, and the sister she is jealous of. For those reasons, she is certainly not joining Team Stark on her own.
- The hostage threat at the outset is pointless. This sort of thing was understood among all the combatants, and they did not believe there was any reason for the Lannisters to harm Ned or the girls, BECAUSE THERE WASN'T! This was not a ruthless & logical decision by the Lannisters to kill Ned, it was the whim of a spoiled brat, possibly influenced by Littlfinger. Like many of the things that bring down Robb's cause in the books, it was not a foreseeable outcome, but bad faith actors doing stupid things or going against their own interests. Robb making that initial threat would have just sounded like the bluster of an inexperienced boy and could have led to trouble for his own bannermen, if the Westermen decided to take it as a threat and decided not to take prisoners themselves.
- The other problem with the hostage threat is it commits Robb to a pointless slaughter. Because a bunch of northern nobles were taken captive long before Jaime was. Going straight to a massacre would lead to reciprocity against Wylis Manderly and others. Maybe if Wylis is executed on the Green Fork after the first clash, Wyman Manderly never goes vengeful against the Freys, but the grief over his lost sons is redirected at Robb for escalating the hostilities. Also, there is no way to accurately predict the reactions of others to this strategy. And there is no way to say what Joffrey is going to do. He's just dumb enough to take that sort of thing as a dare and prove how badass he is by having Lancel and the dumber Kingsguard butcher Sansa in retribution.
- Robb actually had a pretty good response to the murder of Ned: secession from the kingdom. It's a power move, it gets him a crown, deprives the enemy of manpower and resources, and if he wins he is not in their power to turn around and punish once their grip on the Iron Throne is secure. And the aim is not to find an excuse to kill Jaime or hurt the Lannisters, it is to get what you want. Proclaiming the new kingdom is enough of a dis to not lose face, and you retain Jaime as a bargaining chip for making a peace. If Jaime is dead, Tywin could very well decided to go down swinging regardless of the cost, and the North can't afford a wasteful exchange of needless casualties. As long as there is the possibility of getting Jaime back, there is a motive for Tywin to talk peace. Robb did not need a means to provoke him into rashness, he had one in OTL, sitting astride Tywin's line of supply. He marched into the Westerlands to begin a chevauchee of his own. Tyrion was right about the strategic advantage of Tywin's position at Harrenhal, and by raiding into the West, Robb forced him to abandon it and respond to his own moves. It was sheer bad luck that prevented Robb from executing his plan to kill or capture Tywin.
Remember, too, in OTL, Robb WAS affecting Tywin's untouchable status, which is why Tywin encouraged Walder Frey's taboo-breaking massacre, he needed to respond to show the world that this boy king had not showed him up. That's also why Tywin had to march west, to leave Kings Landing to its own devices, and risk the Baratheons taking the city with him on the other side of the continent - if he did not march, his vassals would abandon him to return home and defend their own property. The feudal contract was based on service for protection, and if Tywin could not protect them, they would not serve him.
In OTL, the Lannisters already knew that Sansa was their only bargaining chip. Tyrion was in a panic when she was late returning to the castle during the riots because he was terrified about reciprocity to Jaime. The problem is every other member of the family at court is an idiot, a child or both, and don't think through the implications. Nothing Robb did was going to make them take better care of Sansa, and the threat to Jaime was not enough to keep Tywin from destroying the Starks' family heirloom sword and stealing it for himself, or marrying Sansa to his son without her family's consent.
Ok, marrying the Frey girl immediately is a really good point, and unlike a lot of the other stuff you mention it’s pretty foreseeable by Cat as she thinks Lord Walder did the exact same thing in Robert’s Rebellion. I do think Walder would have accepted though, I mean he sent almost his entire army off with Robb, including his heir and a bunch of grandsons, so he seemed pretty damn committed to the cause until Robb betrayed him
yeah, robb was a idiot, he was so young..., if he act like Ned in the rebelion, Ned love the dornish girl but for his house go with caty, and win the war, Robb marry with the usseles girl and lost the war.
Can’t wait for your channel to blow, this made me feel much better after a nasty day at work dealing with Boltons of my own😭
Get your equivalent of Arya to sort them out!!!! Thank you for the kind words and thanks for watching! -Liam
Robb had to ally himself with one of the other contenders. Should've declared for Renly or Stannis, then they would've won quite handily.
The mistakes of marrying Talysa/Jeyne, executing Karstark ( should've taken him hostage ), taking his mother to war ( should've let her home, then Jaime doesn't get freed ) and trusting Bolton ( why the FUCK would you trust Bolton ) are all huge.
Was a snowball that kept rolling down hill.. Winter truly was coming.
Cat was useful at first, especially with the Frey Negotiations, but perhaps her role should have ended there at that point.
We need a 20 minute video to say he should have married one of the Frey' daughters, strategized another way to bargain to cross the Twins, or strategize the entire campaign not feeling too urgent about crossing the Twins urgently.
Obviously, the Frey daughter issue is hindsight, so I'll remove that. An option they didn't consider at the Northern kingdom's war council was Stannis Baratheon's campaign against King's landing. From Robb Stark himself, he didn't want to take King's Landing for himself, and he was a "honorable" person who understood the general laws and believed his message that Joffrey was a child of incest; so letting Stannis be king was not a problem for him. He could have allowed his army to wait / regroup / time around Stannis winning further south and then "asked" the Frey's to cross with the obvious implication being "you cannot win a fight from both sides so you kind of have to say 'yes'."
I would be completely fine if down the road they chose to remake the show but make it an alternate spin on events and Jamie being killed would be a great split off point and the red wedding never happens and just go fanfic who cares. The idea of tywin going all out after losing his true heir would be compelling.
Sadly no matter how smart Robb is i think he would send Theon regardless, he trusts Theon like a brother and needs the ship and he offers the ironborn a very sweetdeal. He would always send theon sadly
Aye a healthy dose of "everything comes up roses for the chosen house is applied in these hypotheticals" Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips facts lol
It does not matter. Balon has already ordered the Iron Fleet to muster and they are already gathered for war when Theon returns home. This actually worries Theon, because he knows that the order had to have gone out before they learned of his release. In other words, Balon was not taking Theon's hostage status into consideration, he was planning his attack no matter what. He is already treating Asha like his heir and calling her a son. Balon wrote off Theon long before the events of book 2. Even when he greets Theon, he is looking for excuses to find fault with him, noting that he has spent as much time with the Starks as he had with his own family. Balon is trying to rationalize writing Theon off.
@@Gunleaver yeah i also believe he was already going too declare himself king, but Theon Taking winterfell with his inside knowledge of the the castle and how Northern lords work meant he could secure winterfell and “kill the stark boys” (which he didnt but robb thought so which was the worst part and gave him cause too turn home which made him get caught in the red wedding) so all he would need too worry about was victarion at Moat caitlin (he would leave after Balon dies) and Asha(yara) at Torrhen’s Square (same as victarion) so the iron born wouldnt be a big problem
It was a good move, on paper, as well, being a sign of good faith, but Balon was already preparing for war, anyways, without caring for Theon's safety. Balon brings up Robb's letter a slight but it likely didn't matter what Robb wrote either. Robb could have probably pledged himself to Balon and Balon would still have found fault in Robb thinking himself worthy of being Balon's subject.
My favorite Lysa Arryn line “AND NOW THERE ALL DEAD!”
My favourite Lysa line "ahhhhhhhhh" as she fell through the moon door 😂😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
I think Frey definitely takes the marriage, if things go bad he’ll most likely have the newborn northern prince under his roof to bargain with
What if Bran truly saw nothing?
Cersei: "Jaime, let's shag in that tower."
Jaime: "...Or we can go literally anywhere else that isn't exposed to the frigid elements!"
bran was also a 9 year old kid. all jaime had to say was "we're wrestling, kid."
Subbed! I needed more videos to watch while I edit.
so glad to see a longer video these just have something about them
Yep, should have seen the size of the script ! 😂
@@TheFandomeClips 😂can imagine good job though
Oi Tom you slagging off my overly long and wordy scripts? 😂
I believe that if Robb Stark had the marriage done immediately, it would have forced Walder to commit. As a bonus, Walder was getting his heart's desire-his house would have the legitimacy of the bloodline of a king through the children of Robb Stark. I think these two reasons make it unlikely for Walder to betray Rob later if Rob simply had kept his word.
a simple conversation between Robb and Stannis i think could have gotten the alliance done. Ned died for Stannis' claim. If ever there was a southern king in this era for the North to swear fealty to, it is him. "I'll kneel to you, King Stannis, but I won't kneel to the Lannisters. We have a common goal. Let us achieve it together, Your Grace." The Tyrells would potentially have even gone to Stannis after Renly's death seeing the massive power shift. Mace wanted Margaery to be queen, but losing your ancestral seat as traitors sure would play a heavy role in decision making.
Okay, I don't normally do this with less than a half hour of content, but the quality, logic and realism play out entertainingly and are right up my alley. Sub earned! I appreciate the longer-form videos as it both allows you to play to your strengths of realistic analysis and your presentation, while...bombastic, is not at all grating.
It's a good way of delivering the information in a memorable and punchy way, and while sure it could use some polish, you just started and have plenty of time, and plenty of Star Wars (focus more on the "Legacy" material when you exhaust the "gritty" recent material) and GoT/ASOIAF material to assess.
To be honest, while I am a lover of the finest tinfoil, watching you tear apart over-the-top fan theories (and things that led to the fan service of the later seasons of GoT) in your trademark style would be rather entertaining.
Oh we're on the tail of the fan theory's, there's a few we want to do a video on! Thanks so much for the kind words and thanks for watching! Liam
I like the length cos he keep it straight forward and didn’t repeat yourself. Also have you thought about setting up a discord? I think it would be a great opportunity to discuss this topic more and maybe get some ideas for future videos?
We have two discord buddy, they should be linked in the video! If not, Tom what you playing at? 😂 thanks for watching! Lian
I love coming back to this video to rematch and imagine the ending going that way
If Robb was alive, and Jon still spent the same time with Dany, would he still choose Dany over Robb?
Nice one guys fun video to watch ! GL in future with this project! Waiting to see video about what Dorn could do anything in that universe XD
Dorne ! Interesting. Im hoping we do Stannis the Mannis next!
I don't remember if this was in the book, the show or both, but I'm pretty sure the argument Greatjon Umber makes for Rob's coronation is that they bowed to the dragons and the dragons are gone. If Daenerys showed up with her dragons, the argument for making Rob Stark King would be null and void, so he wouldn't even lose face if he just bent the knee to Daenerys as Queen of the Andals, Rhoynar and First Men, Lady of the Seven Kingdoms and Protectress of the Realm.
Its certainly a possibility Miguel! Talking is all they can really do anyway. Powerful Wargs are a wildcard, but I doubt it would ever reach full blown conflict! Thanks for sharing your insights! -Liam
He could swear fealty for a marriage alliance, as it only matters for a generation until their children get everything anyway. The thing is, he needs to survive until she comes to Westeros.
There's another potential option, if Ned hadn't been so blind to Stannis' faults and such a Robert lover. If he'd told Jon and/or Robb the truth and he or Robb either prevented Jon swearing to the NW, or got him out of it. Or say Lord Reed tells Robb, and proves it somehow/tells them where to get proof, say his or Jojen's Greenseeing.
Greatjon Umber said 'it was the Dragons we bowed to, and the Dragons are dead', well, not all of the human ones, and one has Stark blood too. Ok he may have meant the Targs or the actual dragons, but...
Anyway, they do have a 'dragon', Jon, who could bring them a huge amount of support in the South. Obviously this requires some proof, but the timing adds up, and Ned's word was also still pretty good at this point. I can see people like Olenna going ''oh, of course, that makes more sense''.
Most of Stannis' forces at this point are the Lords of the Narrow Sea and Crownlands, who would choose a son of Rhaegar over Stannis any day. The Tyrells would be like ''A Targaryen King you say, unmarried you say...sorry Renly but you didn't consummate it, the marriage is null and void, bye''. The Reach would follow, it's full of Loyalists. Maybe some of the Stormlords too, even. Heck, even Stannis *might* consider the option if he's not too far gone in fanaticism, he struggled with following Robert in the Rebellion, and that was his brother, against the King.
The Riverlands would follow the North, through Robb (half are Loyalists anyway). The North might be a hard sell at first cos Targaryen, but the Son of the She-Wolf, raised by Lord Stark, as King of the 7 Kingdoms, I could see them going for that, once the truth is out. Especially if he either agrees to their independence (they might not even want it anymore with someone with Stark blood on the throne, one who knows the wolfswood and the wall, even his gods are right!), gives them some leeway or Robb gets a Prince title like the Martells, say. Dorne, depends on if they hold his parentage against him or their hate of the Lannisters is stonger. Promise Oberyn some specific heads and swear that Elia and her children will be honoured and never forgotten, and he might be onboard.
May seem too good to be true, but it was an option still.
Lord Umber, Lord Karstark and other Lords want to lead the battles in the front, I would say separate the Boltons and have each of them serve alongside the other lords to make sure that there is an eye on them. If Roose says anything, Robb could say something along the lines of your men serve with other lords to show unity in the north.
Great video, found this channel from this video, more content like this, I think you should go with 15-30 minute videos, this was fantastic, I haven’t watched a short but I assume it’s the same quality.
The shorts were us "testing the waters" so to be speak, Tom puts a hella lot of effort into the editing side of things and I do my best to make sure the audio and music good as can be! Now we've found some working formulas we're looking at longer vids! Thanks for the input buddy and thanks for watching! Liam
Great video, though I do feel like picking that starting point eliminates a few major advantages the Starks had before that. The Starks (and Stannis) were the only players aware from the beginning (or at least from Roberts visit to Winterfell) that the game was afoot, and there were plenty of moves Ned could have made while he was hand that would have put them in an unassailable position. Being king in all but name gave Ned a huge amount of power, but he barely used any of it.
For example:
-send Joffrey to Dragonstone to be fostered by Stannis, with Jaime as his weapons tutor/kingsguard. It's much harder for the Lannisters to make trouble if Tywin and Cersei's beloved sons are stuck on an island with the Mannis.
-Give Mace Tyrell a seat on the small council in exchange for a marriage between Margaery and Edmure Tully (Mace's grandkids would be the lords of two of the 7 kingdoms, and at this point the heir to the throne is unavailable thanks to Sansa so he's not likely to get a better offer). The Lannisters are then hemmed into the Westerlands, and attacking Riverrun would bring in the Tyrell army to save Margaery.
Great suggestions! Yeah if you start any earlier it becomes a bit too easy for the Starks to get out of it! Thanks for watching! Liam
If Ned would even have suggested sending Joffrey or Tommen away, Cersei would have personally beheaded him.
After Renly's death, if the Starks had gone on to siege High Garden, you can bet money that Olenna and Margaery would've been scheming a way for Margaery to marry Robb.
They would've been on some, "With the Starks and the Tyrell's joining forces, we can insure the independence of The Reach and The North from the Iron Throne." sales-pitch.
Good video. Totally agree . The grey area is the whole frey situation. But the right away marriage is key for sure.
Post-Main Campaign, Pre-Epilogue: Stannis could negotiate with Robb after King's Landing falls and while the Tyrells surrender.
The offer: Surplus food from the Reach will be shipped up the King's Road to the North, helping to ensure the North is sufficiently provisioned to survive the coming Winter. At the head of this convoy will be Sansa Stark, safely returned to her family. If done prior to entering negotiations with Robb, the Starks and the North will be honor bound to acknowledge Stannis as a just king.
While this would create a more conflicting dynamic with Daenerys when she arrives, it would allow the Northmen to become more aware of the threat Beyond the Wall. By this time, the Battle of Castle Black will become a rout as the Northmen will move to aid the Night's Watch.
However, while I have penned this possible turn of events, I know it's extremely unlikely. Stannis is stubborn, even for a Baratheon. He will more likely demand the North capitulate rather than engender any trust from them. My idea is definitely an idea that Ser Davos would put forward, having saved Stannis from starvation all those years ago, he would argue they do the same for the North now that the Long Summer has ended.
We look at the impact the Onion knight could have had were he sent to do more of the talking in our Baratheon vid!
Your idea is a great one, but it is wholly reliant on Stannis listening to his council (which not impossible but as you say he's stubborn as heck) Part of the reason he lost was his initial reluctance to go and help his Vassals in favour of sitting around brooding. Had he helped Rob early, he could have secured their loyalty before "THE KING IN THE NORTH" was ever a thought.
Thanks for watching nd sharing your insights! Liam
The problem with spending the Boltons is that it will be pretty obvious if Robb singles Roose out for all the shit jobs. What's more, a king or overlord is expected to reward service with appropriate benefices. Edmure gave Roose a job that looked impossible - take Harrenhal with his rather small host with the manpower left after the defeat on the Green Fork - and he found a way to do it with light causalities. If Robb gives Roose a singularly difficult mission intended to bleed him, and he finds a way to accomplish his task through a trick or ruse, he looks great, and Robb looks like a tool, and will have to reward Roose for his feats of arms. A large part of the problem was that Roose had an independent command and could go along behind Robb's back. When he broke Roose off on his own, it was prudent at the time, but the strategic situation evolved, and it would have messed everything up to recall him to Robb's retinue. The strategy of trying bleed Roose's personal forces could blow up in Robb's face by making him look oppressive to a lord who has not yet wronged him, garner sympathy for the Boltons and have the lord with the second largest army worrying about what happens when the Boltons are out of the way and now HE'S the biggest internal threat to the Starks, and if it does not work, could make Roose even more powerful.
You also cannot get away with taking the Boltons' men away from them and assigning them to other lords. The whole point of the feudal system is one of personal loyalties. The Boltons' men and their families, live on Bolton lands. They were recruited and paid by the Boltons, they are loyal to the Boltons the same way the people of Winterfell and the surrounding lands are personally loyal to the Starks, or those on Bear Island are loyal to the Mormonts. Furthermore, it wouldn't do any good to prevent treachery, because if you are a Bolton soldier, reassigned to another lord, to keep Lord Roose from committing treason, are you going to disobey Roose when he sends you a secret message or gives you secret orders before you depart, to betray your new commander at his signal? Of course not, because your wife and kids or your parents or anyone else you hold dear back at home, lives under the power of House Bolton. If you fail Roose or betray him, his loyalists back in the Dreadfort can retaliate against your people.
It wouldn't be too obvious with the reason given in the video.
I wonder if since we think Walder Frey was planning the betrayal all along, (meaning Robb won't need to marry a Frey girl) that the move when Dany shows up isn't just to offer a marriage pact with her? If she wanted the North back under the Iron Throne, that would be a way to get it without conquest.
killing Jaime would have been such an important and ballsy move that would have changed the entire show
Rob had no chance to take the twins in time without massive losses, its why he made the deal. It wasnt about honor Frey was already negligent in supporting his liege.
Just swim across the river Robb, it's easy, its half fish anyway...
-Thom
Walder son was also married to Tywin sister he literally had closer blood ties to the Lannister than to the Tully's who along with other River Lords have constantly disrespected him throughout his reign.
@@condeeemployee True, which is why marrying a Frey girl on the spot would have been a good idea.
Tom (whoever that is) is right Walter all his life has struggled to make older and powerful lords respect him and his family so he jumps at marriages with very powerful houses, like how one of his sons married the lannisters, but the whole Frey wedding deal could have been avoided if Brynden blackfish had gone inside to negotiate instead of Catelyne, because Walder feared the black fish, and also the black fish was his liege, lord, or the closest thing to it, since Hoster was dying, and Edmure was besieged, also Bryndens no bullshit reputation would help scare Walder
Great points Billy! Tom is the video editor, owner of the channel and does a second pass on my scripts to give his thoughts! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverse no problem
If I’m interpreting his character correctly, Littlefinger isn’t merely a “pick the winning side” kind of guy. He’s in it to win it, and would have been a problem until he’s either on the throne or dead. Maybe his betrayal would have been delayed, but he’s not just going to become a side character and be content
I feel like Cat was vital to securing the Riverlands, as she was the daughter of their liege lord and Edmure’s heir, but yeah, after Robb secured the Riverlands she should’ve been sent back to Winterfell.
Walder Frey has no shortage of daughters. He can still betray Robb and sacrifice one of his daughters in exchange for the Riverlands.
That's a fair point, but marrying to Rob might really give them a boost up that social ladder so to speak.
Actually you are right. Walder Frey has some gains & little to no loses if he betrays Robb in the Red Wedding. That’s due to the fact that he is eyeing the Crown too & keeping his options open.
Even in canon, the Iron Throne didn't give him the Riverlands, though. Riverrun, itself, was given to a Frey but Littlefinger was made Lord Paramount and was, on paper, supposed to rule from Harrenhall.
I really wish we could have got an entire show dedicated to Robb and his battle. Not just the side plot it became due to show runners rushing.
I think Robb would have bent the knee to Dany. Torrhen Stark took one look at those dragons, said "Nope," and immediately bent the knee.
I don't think the North would have had too many issues with her policies for governing, and she's very justice minded. Robb would kneel and she'd defend her realm by teaming up to fight the wights. Aegon would have done the same thing.
About Littlefinger. I think after The Mannis sacks Kings Landing, littlefinger will very likely be executed along with everyone else there on team Jeoffry. This is Stannis they’re dealing with.
Haha very true Timmy! "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good"
I love that half bald bastard, I really hope he gets a more appropriate arc and ending in the books we'll never be able to read 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
I found your channel because of this video. I much prefer long form videos on tv/movies. Was entertaining and descriptive. Will be subscribing for sure and hope to see even longer videos from you
Wait... even longer?!!! *faints*
Thanks ParkeyDee! Hope to see you around in the comments in future :D
8:47 Frey was never above flipping but he only did it in the end because Rob married another girl and “spat” in his face. I think he would take the marriage then and there.
Fantastic video keep it up you're doing amazing things