It's always that 0-0-10 widowmaker that starts spewing TANK DIFF MTD TANK DIFF OUR TANK SO BAD in chat when their poor Rein gets absolutely blasted by Bastion Mei Zen, I always back them up, tell them they did a good effort, held as much as they could
Nah I have too much fun watching the enemy team fall apart for me to defend the other tank. I'd rather get in the enemy team's head and encourage the flaming. Also that means that if I get players from the enemy team, they'll also be more happy to see me on their side.
7v7!?!? What about 4 dwarves in a cavern fighting creatures in Deep Rock Galactic!! Flats, bring some friends and hop in! “By the beard, rock and stooone!”
Without watching, ima say that since DPS players are selfish and incapable of teamwork, 7v7 is the only way to both solve DPS queue times *which is 100% a self inflicted issue* and tanking.
I think we can just try to make the other roles more fun. No one wanted to queue tank when the only viable heroes were sigma and orisa. No one wanted to queue support when there were like 6 supports in the game. No one wants to queue tank in this dog shit format. I mean just look at doomfist. He has his own community that will play him no matter what and that helps with queue times. If we add more fun options like doomfist to the tank role and support role and keep the game balanced, people will queue for those roles.
@@abdx8752The problem is that games think that because more people play dps they should have more characters in the dps role. But that just leads to more people wanting to play dps because there’s more characters in that role.
@BananaWasTaken this. Holy shit, this. There's like double the amount of dps as any other role, so of course there's more people interested in playing dps
As a veteran player, I'd be more inclined to play a 7v7 game of old overwatch where teams had an understanding of their role and could coordinate plays than the death match free-for-all current overwatch has become. In OW1, it didn't take a genius to say oh, let's grav-dragon, or oh, let's shatter-bomb. But nowadays, I rarely see any effort to do anything remotely team orientated when that was a fundamental aspect of the game and people prefer to be the main character, which the current dev team has only facilitated with changes to make each character viable on their own
It's not that they added individual playmaking or self sustaining capabilities (that is fine), it is that they took away a lot of the old stuff teamwork strategies and combos being an option as much. I remember being a lucio in 2016 booping up an enemy rein so our rein could shatter under him while our Zarya bubbled me. Or even having a backline with off tanks serving as protectors able to peal/play for picks and make more unique playstyles. If anything removing oneshots is removing individual playmaking and some major variety in strategies that used to be present in Overwatch 1.
The problem with 5v5 is that it gives more power to individuals so it's not necessary to have a combo if you can kill them on your own. And since the biggest threat and hitbox is the tank the tank gets focused the most. Also the teams are way more split up which leads to two problems: 1. Ult combos are way worse. When was the last time you hit a 5-man shatter, flux or grav. Gravdragon isn't worth it if you solo grav the Ana 2. If the enemy tracer dives the Zen alone in the background it's harder to peel for him. Especially without an off-tank Additionally Overwatch got way more toxic. Nobody is in the voice chat and everybody starts flaming after losing the first team fight. The word "diff" has the OW community in a chokehold :) This is probably because OW2 is free to play and draws in some.... interesting players
"Viable on their own" with every new support having mobility and offensive capabilities/huge survivability so they don't need help from anyone... you'll never see a character like Ana released anymore, and yet she's the most beloved support in OW because she's team-oriented, has a high skill-cap, and isn't an ego-centric Avenger or unkillable healbot.
You never see any team play because most support abilities on a 10 sec cooldown that requires no mechanical skill what so ever can override and play the game for you. Why would you waste your time om team play when a Baptiste can look at the ground and press E and save his entire team.
I found the idea of 7v7 interesting, but imho the main problem with ow2 losing its playerbase is not in the issues with 5v5, but in the fact that many players used to come play because there were free reward events, coin farming for cosmetics and lootboxes. Now this motivation is gone and there are only battlepass levels full of useless sprays or nametags + all good stuff locked behind shop
It's ridiculous how scarce the "non-premium" currency is. Credits were designed to be grindable, now we just get these commie rations of them as an occasional allowance. Like, the LEAST they could do is give us bonus credits for spending Overwatch coins, it would get more people spending money on the game, but ideally, we'd have that + varying small amounts of credits for completing matches + small amounts earned from daily challenges so there's a reason to care about them even after finishing the battle pass
I would much prefer to only make one $40 payment every 5 years or so and just get all the cosmetics again like we used to. But I don't think our playerbase numbers are going down right now. Of course we aren't as popular as 2016 Overwatch 1, but that was a better game from the casual/fun perspective and we were getting awesome cinematics and everyone was hopeful of the future back then. 5v5 is doing well despite it's horrible monetization because we are getting content and it's free. I am kind of indifferent between the 6v6 vs 5v5 vs 7v7 thing. But if I had to pick one I have thought 7v7 would be the best peak version of Overwatch since they said they were doing the original tests of it like back in ~2019 when queue times first became a major problem.
That’s what drive me crazy, you want more new people to come, but they are so damn stingy with credits. Like serious a bunch of old ass skins, and earn enough just for like 1 skin. Should be 5x that, these are old skin.
As a season 3 OG, mainly solo queue flex player, I don’t want “more individual impact” i want to be rewarded when I find the instances of good teamwork.
@@kingauther7812 An individual shouldn't be able to EASILY just Rambo a coordinated team. A coordinated team should be able to shut down an individual player. Doesn't mean an individual player can't have impact. Currently it doesn't feel like there's much individual or team impact. Just feels like a sloppy game.
It sounds like absolute madness in the best way possible, and after the simplicity and kinda boring/samey games of 5v5, I'd rather have that less consistent but more fun/crazy experience I couldn't find anywhere else. In the same boat~!
I agree, and the worst part is that it might be pretty chaotic but there’s downsides to all of the options and the chaos is the best downside to choose if the rest of the gameplay works well. I wish we could have all the options at once and nobody would fight and we could just play whatever we want but there’s not enough players
The problem isn't nobody wants to play tank, the problem is everyone wants to play DPS. There are 10 Tanks, 18 DPs and 8 Support. It's no surprise there are double the DPS players, cause they have near double the tank and mercy heroes.
No, Tanks are incredibly boring to play, and this is proven by MR tanks, they are massively more fun than overwatch's tanks. Only the off tanks in overwatch 1 was fun but the majority of the issues are the obnoxious other characters.
My issue here is that we already know what good Overwatch looks like. We’ve had it. So we’re not fumbling in the dark so much. Aside from the technical aspects of reverting to 6v6, it still makes the most sense given that there’s a blueprint both between the 6v6 code and the October of 2020 patch. We have literally no idea how to practically make 7v7 work. Chances are, with more DPS on the map, you’ll still run into the problem of needing to power creep supports further to avoid stressing them out, and have them or their teammates dying over and over due to the sheer amount of possible flankers, dmg output etc. I’m all for trying it out, but I think 7v7 has potential to be as problematic as 5v5 to balance. Instead of the tanks being forced into being raid bosses now due to the format, in 7v7 you’ll likely just move the power into supports who’ll then become the balance nightmare instead.
Tbh, as a support player, I would be fine with that. It would mean support might be more focused on healing instead of killing, which is a switch that I haven’t enjoyed.
Support players need to come to terms with the fact that they can't save everyone at all times. Finding the key teammates that need the most support and letting the lesser important teammates die during the fight is what separates good support players from great support players.
@@Shzl47 well when DPS players and tank players come to terms that its not supports fault, then we can talk. Id rather not be playing support to have some randos yell slurs at me for not keeping them alive
7v7 seems insane to me when 6v6 is right there. Sure 7v7 would "technically" solve the Qtimes issue, but lets just think about it logically. 1. You now have 3 DPS on the Field, meaning more damage, meaning balance needs to be adjusted again to fit a format where theres now 3 DPS, 2 Tanks and 2 Supps. We dont know if that would mean Tanks need to be tankier or Supps need to heal more etc. With 6v6 we already know how that would all work (eg. Rein has 500-550HP, Pin does 250dmg, etc.) 2. People already complained about Visual Clutter in 6v6, now you want 2 more DPS on the field? So next to your Sombra and your Hanzo Ult you would like to have a Mei Ult too? Obviously this wouldnt happen every game but there would still be way more stuff on the screen. 3. This would probably make it even harder for Casuals because now there potentially one more DPS on the flank hunting for Supports, which takes the attention of your tank away from the frontline even more and you again just have a weird scenario where both tanks have to be at 5 places at the same time 4. Hardware Limitations seem to be problematic for 6v6 already, 2 more players (and the visual clutter of them) could be hard to implement. Idk, it just feels like you dont want to be on the 5v5 or 6v6 side so you came up with 7v7, even though I know you have enough knowledge of the game to know that doesnt sound like a great Idea. You were right about 5v5 in 2021, no way you dont see the Issues of 7v7 But, lets just wait for the 6v6 playtest and go from there, if 6v6 doesnt come back, i would gladly take 7v7 over 5v5, because 5v5 is just that ass.
It just won't work, the third dps is going to head hunt the support, and having 3 toxic dps types that just hunt supports will decide teamfights easy. There should be another tank and just make it 2 tanks 2 dps and 2 healers. Dps head hunt supports already, I play high gold I’m by no means a great kiriko but I feel fking pressure already with just two dps, one is always actively trying to hunt me down. Especially tracers and sombras who have really annoying kits. Imagine a third dps. I wouldn’t be able to heal anyone n just die.
It’s like itching an inflamed body part. The more you itch, the worse it gets and you only itch more. What I mean by this is that 7v7 will only cause the already established problems with 5v5 to get worse. Supports have to be even MORE powerful and become do-it-alls due to all the dps on the field. Tanks have to be even TANKIER because of the 3rd dps and to have enough sustain. It only makes it worse
Have you played 6v6? It feels like you didnt. 1. We have to do that either way. The new heroes alone change everything. Changing the numbers i literally the easiest part about it all. 2. Maybe, just maybe, reduce visual clutter in the game then. OW1 had way less of it. Not every effect needs to have epilepsy inducing visuals. The new ults are so visual, its insane, like, maugas cage, kiriko ult, ramatra, tree... those all can be toned down A LOT. Those are also usually the worst offenders when people say its too cluttered. Not mei ult? 3. Maybe you forgot, but tanks used to be able to peel for dps. Thats what the offtank was for. And he has to peel for 2 supports either way. Ofc you need to either tone up the tankiness of those offtanks or tone down the offensive ability of the dps, but thats balance stuff. One tank to hold the frontline, one tank to protect the backline or flank, dps to flank or kill their frontline, supports to flank or hold up your frontline. thats how the game worked. thats how it could work with 7v7. 4. Thats literally his point. Tho, as I said, I think you can absolutely reduce clutter in the game. A lot of hardware limitations come from the insane visual clutter. Reduce that and its easily possible. 7v7 is a viable option. Flats didnt say it is for sure the only one on the planet. He just said its one that wouldnt just recreate the original issues while also solving the existing ones. Queue times with 6v6 are an issue. While I do believe that a large part of people not wanting to tank rn is due to tank being no fun, the same issue being the case back in OW1, I dont know if we should bet on it. I dont see why we cant have both. Like, just let the dps fight it out in 5v5 and let tanks have fun in 6v6. AI in games is good enough to just let some AI play tank, not that tanks matter a ton in 5v5 anyway, most dps wouldnt even notice.
Dps isn't blamed because it's a cosmetic role. Everymatch resides purely on supps and tanks enabling the dps. I promise you if both your dps suck in a game 9/10 it's not that they just suck because remember they're the same rank as you. Tank refuses to make space or in low ranks supps just heal the tank. There's a reason why in high ranks supp heal the tank less and it's because they're healing dps or doing damage
7 V 7 sounds like an absolutely MISERABLE experience for me as someone who wants to play Support. It invites Support Power Creep to comeback in FULL FORCE. I already despise having to deal with the current format as is with having to keep my tanks alive. Who either decide I get to live because DPS are making tank unplayable since my tank is either stuck having to do nothing but block, and/or my team mates leaving me to die because I refuse to play the absolute cancer that is Moira or Kiriko. I despise Moira with every fiber of my being from every aspect, and Kiri just isnt for me, and is way too good of a crutch. Having one more brain rotting DPS player who will either make my life a living hell thats exclusively aiming me down or just wont help me because jerking themselves off with the score board is more important is absolutely awful. In my own personal experience having been playing and taking a break while Mass Resurrection was still a thing since I cant give a specific date. Tank players and Support players who CONSISTENTLY play them genuinely those 2 roles have more brain cells than a majority of DPS players to my displeasure. Is 7 V 7 worth a shot? Sure why not. But Im going to agree with Samito on this one and say that to even begin fixing the que times you need to fix the base game. Better balance, better engaging game loops, and introducing better designed characters like Juno is how you go about this to at least START. MAUGA DOSENT FEEL MISERABLE TO FIGHT IN 6 V 6. WITH JUST SOME QOL CHANGES AND PROPER BALACING THE GAME CAN BE FANTASTIC. I just wish theyd give us access to the que times of October 2020.... im genuinely curious to see them.
I’m sure if it’s implemented certain ults that take up visual clutter would get reworked. For example, Symmetra Wall which is massive would probably get reworked to something impactful dps while but also lower on visual.
@@joshuacollins9316 is it really that resource consuming? I get fps way in the hundreds even on ultra settings in both 6v6 and 5v5 and I don't have a super good pc. My series X didn't seem to have trouble running 6v6 or 5v5 either. I don't know if it would really be that bad.
@@tanktahu According to steam gpu charts. The second most common gpu is the gtx 1650. That card was released six years ago and it was a lower midrange card. It barely handles 6v6 let alone 7v7.
Even if they don’t go for 7V7, optimising the game for 7V7 would be great anyway, because then 6V6 would work even better, right? At the VERY least, 7V7 OQ, 14 player death match and 14 player workshop modes would be possible and fun.
@@KoolAidManOGWell once Tanks stop getting blasted for existing, as they do right now, then more people should come to the role, hopefully. Basically 5V5 Tanks are a massive commitment and can be very intimidating and just a pain in the ass. Tank duos negates counterswaps, mindless blaming, splits the debuffs received 50/50, etc. Plus we also have new Tanks, like Junker Queen, Ramattra and AHAHHIRIRUUUURURIRUR!
You're speaking from the perspective of a tank main. Adding an extra tank and dps but keeping supports to 2 is a nightmare for them. It's two more players who not only expect heals but also to hyper focus supports.
this comment genuinely doesn't understand who flats is. He has been in cahoots with the devs for years, doesn't just play tank anymore, and makes a clear and real effort that the games he plays on dps and support aren't just novelty. while you're allowed to agree or disagree, i think claiming he's only focusing on tank because he's 'famous' for being the rein guy is shallow. respectfully. i don;t care for 6v6 or 7v7. 5v5 is yucky and i've always hated it. 6v6 was great but it still had the problems addressed. 7v7 may not be the right answer but it would be nice for experiments like those to be ran again rather than the game rebranding over and over to appear fresh.
I play support. As long as players understand that healthpacks exist, It shouldn't be a problem. Zen would need a healing buff. (Heck, I think he already needs it)
The two major issues I see with 7vs7 or higher are the map sizes and designs being able to handle that amount of players and everything involving ultimate abilities at that scale. I think they're gonna have to do more than just change the number of players and their roles, until then 6vs6 is the best we got.
Nah there are definitely other major things with 7v7, off the top of my head I’d say visual clutter, the supports feeling overwhelmed (I mean just think about tracer, sombra, venture+winton Dva. on the back line) not to mention the balancing, and the game engine etc- not trying to sh1t on your take there btw, just wanted to give my view
Wanna fix Overwatch? Teams of 3. One tank, one support, one DPS. You drop like 30 of those teams onto a big ass map. After some time the map gets smaller. Last team standing wins. I really think this would bring Overwatch II to a new apex. It would be legendary.
OW2 peak player count within the last 30 days on steam was 51,648, averages 31,973 players per day. That's still a lot of players, considering the fact that we are nearing the end of the season.
The reason why 5v5 isn't working is because there's no role identity anymore, at first the supports were crying about dying to much(well yeah that's usually how it's always been, picking off a support is usually the best option) and now they can output the same amount of dps and even more than the actual dps role. Then tanks were crying because it was a boring role to play and now they're unkillable and output insane amounts of dps(The reason a tank had a lot of health is so they could create space and tank dmg doing it). The game is 5 dps v 5 dps that's why we don't see as much mercy players. Every role is better at dps than dps, Tanks are dps with more health and supports are dps that can heal. (I'm obviously a dps player and this game is insufferable and I haven't played consistently in months)
I’m a tank main and you are correct bro I don’t even touch dps yet I see how many dps characters have become obsolete the other two roles are literally just better dps in ow1 a dps was powerful than a support and could in most cases win a 1v1 but now? Supports can take a crap on the dps 🤦♂️
A huge thing I’ve noticed playing tank as a new player: It’s better with another tank. I am allowed to make more plays and get creative. And while one tank can peel the other can hold the frontline just fine! It’s crazy to have to jumble between peeling and front lining lol
No, 3 dps is too much damage, if your a dps or support and get focus fired your instantly fucked. Comps will form about jumping supports and we'll have sombra + tracer + genji, you die instantly. 7v7 isn't the answer, 6v6 is, because that's what overwatch was designed for.
you would think, but dont forget you also have a second tank that will be able to peel for the supports So even with 3 flankers, it will be 3 flankers vs 1 tank and 2 supports. And damage/healing values can be adjusted to compensate as well
@@charchadontooverwatch 1 tank/6v6 tanks would get shredded by 3 dps. No matter how you shape it 3dps is too many, unless you made both tanks overwatch 2/5v5 tanks. But that wouldnt be fun for anyone.
@charchadonto but you also may have a diving tank as well- if you get dived by even just 1 dps or 1 tank, that's alot, but having 2 or even 3 dps + a tank or even 2 tanks jumping on you means there's a massive incentive to go after supports. It'll make it so support as a role is even MORE vital than it already is, since if you lose just ONE support, your team is in alot of trouble.
@charchadonto with significantly reduced shields I will have to disagree with you there is not nearly as much peel as there used to be I'm surprised they haven't taken roadhouse hook away at this point. On top of that melee/short range characters would feel God awful.
You gotta remember that the queue times were so long on dps in overwatch 1 were so long because dps had way more heroes than tank or support. But OW2 has 4 more tanks & 4 more supports and the gap is closing soon.
I think 7v7 would just repeat some of the same issues 5v5 has since it's another format with lopsided player counts in each role. Supports/tanks overwhelmed, over-buffed to compensate, damage coming from everywhere, etc. 7v7 would solve the queue times issue as a baseline, but so did 5v5, and look how that turned out. A lot more has to go into making 7v7 work like map design, optimization, breakpoints, core gamemode revisions like spawn times and stalling reduction, etc. I don't think 7v7 is some magical fix-all to the current problems we have. It has a ton of issues that we haven't seen yet. I'm still pro 6v6, and people also claim it's not a fix-all either, but the difference is that we have 6 years of data on how 6v6 functions. The main problem will always be the balance team. Still, I'd like to try 7v7 for myself.
As a tank main, the amount of abuse you get if you die or make one bad decision is ridiculous. 50% of the time the errors aren’t even the tanks fault but we get blamed regardless. Something needs to change in this game.
This is one of the countless problems, but what pisses me off the most is how the brain dead is rewarded in this game. You get killed by the Junkrat or Hanzo spam, Junk grenade + mine, Reaper, Orisa hits a 125 damage spear, etc, etc.. this kind of stuff is infuriating. In my pov, entry level characters should never overperform in higher ranks, this is nonsensical design. It's fine to have Junkrat or Bastion spamming on silver and that works, entry level, let people learn the game... but then you reach masters and these characters remains viable lol such a joke
This kinda boils down to how can you make a game where DPS has short queue times and tank is actually fun and doesn't just get yelled at every time they die
Tank is so wild right now. I had a hame the other day where the enemy DVA went 62-0 because our tank literally refused to even look at her, even though they swapped to Zarya for an entire round to counter her. The other DPS and I ended up getting yelled at at the end because we died a lot, but the problem was, we would outplay the other dps almost every fight, but as soon as we got a kill, yhe Dva would come pver amd delete us, and theres nothing we could do because we never once got peeled for at all. The fact that the Dva mever got killed once, even when our tank was playing Zarya was insane. I say this as an example of how insanely strong tank is right now, if your tank ignores you, the enemy tank(Dva especially) will jsit tun theough you like you're a college cheerleader in the football locker room.
Before watching this yes I think 7v7 would be best as a launch OW1 veteran. I would absolutely love it. BUT We must first make sure it is possible. It would be beyond scummy of them as a company to abandon low spec players that have loved and followed the game for many years many of which have invested time and may be OW1 veterans. The technical challenges of overhauling all the systems to 7v7 would be monumental. Probably of dozens of serverside, clientside, queueing, dialogue, victory screen, and many many more systems that would have to be changed/updated before they even thought about performance, maps, or balance. I wouldn't be surprised if it took them a year and a half. That said it would be by far the best version of Overwatch. The team fights would be monumental and I support it if it is in anyway possible. I don't care if it would slow down the pace of the game or if they have to make an extra low graphics setting I support it
It could be the answer though I worry that we’d have this period of time like we did did with tanks where we’d have to figure out how to calibrate everything. How much damage should dps do, their health pools, cooldown reworks, etc. If I had to guess, if 7v7 is an option, dps damage would ironically need to be nerfed quite significantly to account for the extra damage output of having two more people on your team. Either that or support healing would need to be buffed again to keep up with the extra health pools.
The secret real solution to the DPS issue in hero shooters is to not have dedicated dps characters everybody needs to have a certain amount of team centered abilities to work best
Or make actually unique characters that dont have to solely rely on cooldowns and instead rely on other conditions, like movement, passives, rotations, teamwork ect.
@@scotttimbrell8632 I agree with this guy too many fights are won and lost because of cooldowns. Especially as someone who use to main Mercy (I get it she’s bad, I still love her) the fact I gotta wait 30 seconds because oh no I tried to go for a res and I got murder, but if a Sombra/Soldier/Venture uses their abilities and die while it’s on cooldown they get it back immediately. It makes no sense and I get it Res is op with out some sort of drawback, but 30 seconds???? Seriously Blizzard???? The fact is Overwatch should take a note from Marvel Rivals and make shit actually about positioning again and not who can do the most stuff at once
IMO the solution to the DPS problem might be to step away from Tank/Support/DPS as your class division altogether. I'm a big fan of Team Fortress 2's "Power/Support/Specialist" setup, myself. It's a setup where the responsibility of doing damage is equally spread across the team, and the roles are more about the kinds of fighting (or otherwise) the classes do. Essentially: Snipers, assassins, mosquitoes (like Tracer), turrets and weirdos are Specialists. Characters whose primary utility isn't their ability to kill people are supports. Everyone else is a Power character. Naturally you couldn't do this with Overwatch, they've kinda already dug that bed, but I think it might be something worth considering for future hero shooters, especially since, at least according to Flats, Marvel Rivals is running into the same lack of tanks problem.
@@maxbustard1720 I agree, and my point is proven due to mercy players like yourself enjoying the freedom of your movement, it's one of the least restrictive movements in the game, just like MR has massive movement freedom. It makes it feel like you have more control over the game and your character rather than being an NPC waiting for the adventurer to come back. Rez is even proven to not be op in MR with a character who mass rez and can selfrez/give self Rez to certain characters. I mean did you really feel that it was unfair they all got respawned? I didn't. It was balanced properly, blizzard just doesn't know how to create characters and balance them
Naah, just make tanks and support fun to play. Marvel Rivals had a recent example, they introduced Captain America and Winter Soldier, Captain has like 45 different abilities as a tank, WS is a dps busted as hell... and it seems like most players embraced Captain instead, just because his gameplay dynamics are more engaging. People pick dps because they are dynamic, in Overwatch "2" there's only a couple of tanks and healers who offers this kind of experience, Doom, Hammond, Lucio and Juno... that's it. And all these characters are weak and tryhard, saved by Lucio (he is pretty strong, but tryhard). Captain America is not tryhard, he is fairly strong and dynamic, THAT is the sweet spot
I just had a realization. When overwatch goes back to the 6V6 format, there will probably be a bunch of newer generation of Overwatch players that complain to switch it back to 5v5 because they weren't there for 6v6 and it will be something they are not used to. Plus with the extra tank they will not longer be able to blame the Tank for losses and some won't be able to accept that they no longer have a solo punching bag to blame.
This, I’m surprised no one said it. Most of the maps are chokepoint hell. Now imagine if you add 2 more heroes into the mix, 4 if you consider 5v5. No one dies, overtime lasts forever.
I've been making my own hero shooter for about a year now and the first thing I put in place was 7v7 cuz of mostly the same reasons of 1 tank isn't great so why not reduce queue times with an extra dps. plus I have plans for the extra dps that will shake up the playstyle of my game a bit! I'm really excited to hear about these types of discussions because it reaffirms my ideas to make a better game and I really hope my project can go far in the future! ^^
I think the biggest problem with this idea gameplay-wise is what will happen to support. I get the trying to reduce queue times for dps, but giving current supports 2 more characters to heal is a very large new weight for them. I'd almost say do 3 supports, and lean more into the play making potential of them, to potentially lure more dps mains to the role, and also reduce the pressure of supports to heal 5 people at once, and not die to the Tracer in the backline. It's an interesting train of thought though Edit: Also bear in mind that this is coming from the mind of a flex queue console player, who has literally never touched ranked before. So if I'm making a fool of myself, that's why lol
I'm curious to see if we remove the DPS Passive, would 2-2-1 be viable. The only reason DPS apply a healing reduction is because healing got so strong nothing died with 2 Supports, maybe thats because 1 Support today has more healing output than 2 Supports at launch. Of course then you trade the Tank issue of not having a buddy to lean on over to the Supports, and are even moreso at a point of when the 1 goes down the teamfight is over.
@@aaronolson6736 the supports in OW1 didn’t get that many healing buffs going into OW2 Brig packs probably got buffed by 15 burst Mercy got a new passive thats better than her old one Lucio got nerfed than reverted Bap got the double heal burst at 50% hp (before OW2 I believe) And i think that’s it for OW1 supports
@@aaronolson6736that moves a lot of the problems that the tank role has rn to the support role. Having only 1 person in any role really messes up the psychological aspect of the game. Everyone will just blame the support instead
Supports would be largely unaffected. A lot of their current kit is almost overkill for a team of 6 as it currently is, so (as a role) they'd probably need the least changes. Excluding outliers like Mercy, obviously. DPS passive would probably still exist but would be considerably weaker because with 3 DPS, things would die faster. The passive would be required just to ensure sustain tanks don't run over everyone. Biggest issues would be how armour and shielding would function and how to tackle the beast that is burst damage and healing. If anyone can come up with anything not too extreme for that last part; go ham.
With queue time i liked a lot that thing where if you played flex you would get a priority pass for the next game, so you could play a bit of tank and then dps, basically win-win - it made more players try out tank by being encouraged to go flex (and flex meant basically tank or support) which decreased queue times, but also gave them in reward priority queue, also decreasing queue time for them.
Queue times would become better though, and if we could handle 6v6 in 2016, then I'd hope 9 years of hardware development should allow for an extra DPS player a team. Visual clutter will always be an issue no matter how many players, that's the nature of overwatch's flashy abilities. Now join hands with me, put your faith in the Oracle, as I have, and await 7v7
I really think they should bring back the defensive role. Change the trait to half tank and half dps. 7v7 with 2 tanks, 2 dps, 1 defensive, and 2 support.
While I appreciate the sentiment of trying something drastic to fix this game, what Flats is forwarding as a format change is honestly another lazy change that will be trading one devil for another. And it won't be a longterm net positive. If we are gonna do a major change (which 7v7 would require huge changes) then we need to get more creative with the format beyond +/- players on a team or role passives. We've taken that route, we know its a hollow road, and if we are going to experiment with big changes again, I'd rather come up with something more creative and substantive in addressing this games issues. I think Flats is far too dismissive of the drawbacks of 7v7. 1.) The current maps are too small to host that many players, absolute chaos, CC overload. 6v6 is barely tenable for many players. "Oh but 6v6 was fine" says the OW1 player. Many players have adjusted to 5v5, and a massive portion have only played 5v5. Imagine ram ulting, tree, kitsune, primal, blizzard, photon barrier, dragonstrike, another ram ulting on their team, and echo copies mauga and drops a cage. What a shxt show. Common for ult dominos in metal ranks and that's only 2/3rds of the players in a lobby, there could be even more ults lol. Lanes crowded. I personally don't mind the large particle effects that OW2 character designs have. Its fun, its manageable in 5v5. I want them to continue making characters like Juno who's abilities can fill a good bit of screen space. Ram's ult looks badass. They will continue to make characters like this, I do not want to play in lobbies with 4 extra characters given this character design trend. Bigger maps for 7v7...these issues become much more bearable. However, I do think it could spread the fight out and make the game feel more deathmatch-y than it already is. Current map sizes with 7v7 isn't ideal, and expanding map size isn't ideal. Spacing, visually overwhelming fights, and general screen clutter will 100% be an issue. Flats is too dismissive, he only says "gamers have learned the game" and "well I don't remember people complaining in 6v6". Even if gamer's game knowledge has "advanced", when your screen is so full of visual fx, you get less info about what's actually going on in the game and you play worse because you can't see shxt and everything is happening all at once. Reminder 7v7 adds 4 players to a lobby. HEY YOU. I'm talking to the metal rank + low diamond player reader, not Mr. streamer top 500 or 10% of players in Master or higher. Imagine 4 players being added to your comp games and if you really believe that won't get cluttered. An alternative idea that's neat: ADD A NEW ROLE. Take the concept of off-tanks/tank enablers from ow1, make it an official role in OW2, fill it with reworked characters from every role in the current cast AND add some new characters. 1.) stick with 5v5, but ADD A NEW ROLE. I envision this role roughly as a "Sub tank" type role. Maybe you call it defense or defender, the branding doesn't really matter. What this role would ultimately do is take/redirect damage pressure off the tank specifically. Maybe you rework the healthpools, damage, and ability tweaks to characters like mei, torb, Zarya, sym, bastion, Dva, brig, JQ, Ball. Make small characters hitboxes 10% bigger, large 10% smaller in new role. Add a couple new characters. This role would ideally probably do low damage, but have the ability to mit/absorb/redirect/tank a fair good bit of damage. They have to have enough damage pressure to get attention (maybe they are naturally 1st targets because they are fight sustainers) but this would allow tanks more flexibility to make their own plays, allowing fights to maintain excitement because the tanks are enabled to make plays without being buffed. Makes tank more fun (tank players want fun, not buffs), you could even nerf tanks if the new role enables them TOO much at current tank balancing. Maybe you call it "Tower" and the 'general' flow is that as long as your "Tower" player is alive they can gate keep elims on dps/supports, but tank and backline have to peel for Tower when they are getting focused? Something to that general effect. I'm being specific here on numbers and characters, but I'm just spitballin ideas out there so its something to work with and shape. Add 2 new dps, 2 new supports, and 1 new tank to those roles, because they lost some roster to the new role. Overall comp: 1 Major tank, 1 Minor tank, 1 Dps, 2 Supports. Maintains benefits of 5v5 and adding a new role gives you the flexibility to address the issues that are plaguing the format. Obviously a lot of balance tweaking/reworks, but remember how far OW characters have developed. Torb used to level up his turrets to level 3 which would shoot 4 rockets per second. Sym was literally a different role. Mercy mafia is strong despite a ton of reworks. I think people will tolerate changes to their characters (popular or not) just fine, and the characters can still bare many parts of their identity and previous play styles. I have no issue having my favorite character changed if it's healthier for the game longterm, and I believe everyone should feel the same. Even if this Defender/Tower idea is trash, I still believe that adding a new role with characters that help address the 'feel' of the gameplay is an idea worth more merit than simply adding more characters to the lobby. Let's all remember that Activision literally produces a new call of duty game every. single. year. Overwatch (and OW2/OW1.2) has been around for 8 years. This might sound like a lot to ask of blizzard, but only because they barely spoonfeed us any balance changes, skins, maps, characters, everything. We've accepted the mind games they play and ask for pennies for updates and it's pathetic. They could have redesigned this game completely 3 times over since 2016 if they wanted to. This game makes a boat load of money. They didn't give PvE. They need to do something drastic on this scale. Honestly, I think asking for 7 new characters amongst 4 roles should be bare minimum. 6 new/reworked maps, and a new fully fleshed out, realized competitive and non-comp game mode. Condense and eliminate some lesser irrelevant game modes, yeah I know its gonna piss some people off, but condense if you need to. Some sacrifices to make this game an overall better experience. I'd give them 18 months-2 years tops. I'd even tolerate only 2 character releases a year if they did this. THATS what's reasonable to ask of this lazy sloth, chat GPT pr team, greedy money hoarding suits of a company. Yeah I know. "I ain't reading all that"
Man sorry, but I'm convinced that it's not achievable at all. Everything in this list would probably take several years to address: - Readability/Watchability of the game - Performance/Engine (even if Switch 2 is on PS4 levels) - Clash gamemode (maps are far too small for even 6v6 frankly) - Entire Esports Overhaul - Individual player impact murdered - Supports go back to mainly being Healers/Victims - Queue times won't change a lot (tanks just aren't popular in gaming, ever) - Every damn aspect of the bloody game (game lengths, team fights, ultimates, stalling, and whatever else you can think of lmao) I'm 100% serious when I say it would be far easier for someone else to make 7v7. A whole DIFFERENT GAME. We cannot try to painstakingly fit a 7v7 format into a 5v5 formatted game. 6v6 is already enough work as is, 7v7 would just be unreasonable in every way.
I think only performance would be an issue, for the exact reason you mentioned, the Switch probably would've trouble running 6v6. As for hero balancing, for most heroes they could look back at earlier dev builds and implement those, and the newer ones they need to tone down. The latter will definitely take some tries and errors, but that's similar to how the game is being balanced right now. And the player impact being lessened, to me is a good thing, because it allows you to make more mistakes without immediately being punished with a team wipe. (in the case of losing one tank for instance) the other points are really hard to predict what's going to happen with them, as they are mostly dependable on the balancing. And the watchability + Esports could get stolen imo, those don't impact my gameplay.
Supports SHOULD be healers. Thats literally what they were meant to be when Overwatch released. They had abilities to keep teammates alive, with ana being QUITE LITERALLY the only support that had an ability that could secure kills (nade). The game was 10x more enjoyable for me and every single one of my friends I've talked to about it back when each role did what THAT role was supposed to do. Tanks tanked, DPS dpsed, and supports supported. This is what the game should be. 5v5 has completely skewed the conception of what Overwatch was supposed to be, and you can't even deny it. So many heroes are STILL to this day designed for 6v6 gameplay, quite a few of them tanks admittedly. Individual player impact shouldn't be a factor here, the game was quite literally meant to be a hero-team based game, not a point and click shooter like Call of Duty. The overwatch community has seriously lost touch with what the game was supposed to have been.
What are you even smoking dude? Symmetra was literally released as a support that DIDN'T heal. Lucio and especially Zen were barely healers in the first place and Mercy also isn't a healer, but a bloody support. Nobody ever enjoyed playing with healbots, which became very obvious with LWs release. As for the player impact, I can see the appeal of teamplay being more significant than indiviual plays but the new team realized with the transition to 5v5 that it's unfun for the majority of the playerbase to rely too much on your team lmao It's been 8 years since OW released lots has changed. With every hero rework it became clearer that they wanted to lean more into the shooter aspect. At this point it's clear, this game isn't for you and that's fine. Plently of people enjoy this current version of OW even with its flaws.
@@Xestern Symmetra was quickly reworked into a DPS because they realized she didn't fit in as a support. Lucio and Zens kits are largely designed to prevent death and heal, with only 2 parts of their kits pertaining to offensive play. Mercy is quite literally the epitome of a healbot, she does basically nothing else other than dps boost people. Supports = healers. The new team hasn't realized ANYTHING with 5v5 other than the fact that most heroes aren't designed for 5v5 play. Something they completely missed when they were missing that transition. And as for "plenty of people enjoy this current version of OW". Enjoying the game, and being addicted to the game are two completely different things. The only streamer/youtuber I've seen genuinely enjoying Overwatch is Frogger, and thats because he enjoys goofing off and trolling more than the actual game, that and its his job. That with the fact that my personal friends list that used to be FILLED with people playing Overwatch has become nonexistent (could be other factors at play, obviously) makes it pretty apparent that Overwatch is in very dire straits.
I think the answer is to remove role queue and implement role limit instead. Max of two types of heros per team. Would help immensely with queue times and wouldnt have to revert to 6v6. It would also allow people more freedom in comp types. Its obviously not without issues like leavers who refuse to play tank. Or having to rebalance around the possibility of only having one support or one dps. But that's my take, i think role limit is our best option
6v6 or 7v7 doesnt matter imo, only thing that i know is that 5v5 isnt working because of those very reasons, nobody wants to play tank, since you're alone, and gets blame for not doing a good job. When I wanna play tank now.. i queue for open queue, since it atleast gives me a chance to have another tank in the group.
I'm putting my idea in the wild again. Make 6v6 a thing. Roles queue is 132. But, one dps can switch to a tank at anytime. Weather, that one dps is randomly chosen to be the flex dps. Or any dps can do it but one at a time. If they switch to tank, they would get the open queue tank health nerf. But curent tank damage. While the main tank would stay the same, but have nerfed damage, and better defensive abilites. (that's permanent, if there 1 more dps or off tank, the lone tank should be ale to stay strong. But not be the curent buffed dps tanks are. While the off tank that can come occasionally, should focus on damage and croud control. The main tank has the base stats, with less damage and more defensive ability compared to an ow 2 rank. And the off tank get thoses stats, but with a flex tank role passive that reduce its health, and defensive abilities, and give him current ow 2 damage.) This would ease dps player into the tank role. And not make the same unbreakable death ball gameplay ow 1 had. As the second tank is a proper off tank, even with a second shield it's less efficient than trying to do damage. Wich is also my point, a dps could switch to a defensive dps, or a croud control dps. And off tank basicly. That's the whole idea. And if it's done via the fact a random dps is given the flex role. You can have the match making adapt to the amount of dps and tank players. People getting the flex role could be someone, having locked dps role, or the tank role. If you lock both tank and dps role you get faster queue. But it's not a good option for pure dps players as you would have a chance to be placed in the tank role. So it cant be used to freely cheese a flex role where you only play dps. You would need to be familiar with tanks. And that would be the reward of learning how to play tank. You would have a better dps queue time, but you have to play tank sometimes, in addition to freely switching to tank in most of your dps games.
A better distribution for queue times would be 2 tanks, 4 dps, 3 supports. Might work but a lot of tuning would be required to avoid vaporizing people.
I still wait 7-15 mins in que, no matter if im queung tank or im playing with a friend who is queing tank. I feel like we still have a issue with que times right now.
I would love the chaos 😂 Imagine they did a game like Squad too with 10 squads of 5-6 people per team for a 50v50. Each squad has a squad leader with an additional push to talk command voice chat, then there is a squad voice chat too. Or they could do 10v10/12v12 Halo style Big Team Battle mode with multiple objectives. That would be super fun casually
It's sad because I stopped playing BF ever since BF1, they announced the newest BF would had 82 vs 82 or something like that... then I saw the players bashing the game nonstop, the maps are gigantic and empty lol sometimes these "competitive" games try to break the mold and that usually leads to disaster, 5v5, 80vs80... if you are not competent enough to shake up the formula, then leave it be
Open queue literally solves the queue time issues with a snap of a finger. Like... I understand the issues with Open but make it a hybrid like Aaron said, Open Queue Role Lock
7v7 would be fun af, don't know how competitive it'd be, but it'd be fun, they'd have to completely delete the existence of overwatch on switch though, it'd literally have to shut down.
Overwatch on the Switch could be improved. I strongly support 7v7 as the best but under no circumstance can we abandon low-spec or last gen console players that would be beyond scummy. Many of them have been loving, investing time in and playing the game since as far back as 2016
What I find hilarious is that the way OW2 is now is how players WANTED OW1 to be. Now that they changed it everyone plays like it’s OW 1. Just teach ppl how to play the damn game blizzard
7v7 on paper, seems like a great option. 7v7- 2 tanks controlling 3.5 enemies instead of 1 controlling 5. Dps still outnumber tanks/supports, so flanks and off angles still work and lots of dueling can still happen. My only worry is that supports would have to heal bot, although like flats said the playerbase is so much better at the game maby thats not much if an issue either.
I used to play support and tank, but I learned early on that Solo Tank was too stressful and stopped queuing. I really liked queen, but I can't be the tank... And then when support was playing a horror game on nightmare mode, and the PvE news broke, I just uninstalled. I honestly might come back if I could play as one of two tanks.
The tank is best to be easiest to play but not doing much. Then everyone can have fun being tank and no responsibility, because it doesn’t do much anyway. One direction could be making tanks low damage but unkillable/instant respawn
@@exoduspeanut6843performance issues, clutter, balancing issues, faster Time To Kill, more pressure for tanks and especially supports, Overpowered DPS teamcomps
man needs to think for himself...he's losing it trying to be an everyman guy if you believe in your stance and its solid people will flock, but everyone just wants to hold the spotlight/microphone
7v7 is genuinely the worst idea of all time. It's like flats looked at all the issues that both 5v5 and 6v6 had, spent an entire video analysing and talking about it and then completely ignored all that and came up with the dumbest random idea that will never work in practice.
Did you not watch the video? He addresses this and makes genuine good points. He literally says that people jump to extremes without considering it(you). It's just a possible option, not something he thinks will fix it all.
@@wolfcat1103 no mate it’s physically impossible. He even read the article about how 6v6 can’t even run on certain systems and 7v7 is even worse. Stop glazing and meat riding Fats, he’s not gonna reward u
Flats was spitting when he said that ppl immediately jump to extremes. Tbh I think 7v7 and even 6v6 is too extreme of a change from 5v5 so instead I think we go 5v6 fr
I see what Flats is going with, but honestly, I don't think it would go the way he thinks it will go. Queue times, for examples, would see an improvement with the extra DPS, but as we recall, tank players are still the lowest player count. As such, while the DPS may find more matches at first, I can also see their queue times increases with such a change, though perhaps not as bad as 6v6. Supports would also suffer from queue times indirectly. Tank synergies, as another example, would be brought back, but with the extra role of DPS, now it becomes a bit more different for the tanks to redevelop any kind of synergy if they are being shot from different angles. If anything, with the extra DPS on the feel, they may be the ones who dictate the tempo of the match versus the tanks, thus making tanks act like bodyguards more than ever. As a result, while 6v6 was slower than 5v5 now, this new format change could either be too slow or even too fast to keep us; it would be just chaos on the field. Not to mention that, in addition of the queue times, Supports would suffer extremely from this format. After all, Supports complained a lot more around 6v6 versus 5v5. With the extra DPS, the Supports are just going to have a much harder time playing the game, thus leading us back to the beginning of OW2, and perhaps a resurgence of OP Supports. As such, I don't think 7v7 is the way. While I could be wrong and would like to see it out, I don't think it is the right idea. Still a good conversation starter though.
Personally for me, it either a return to 6v6 with Role Queue or 5v5 with Flex Queue. While people are aware of 6v6 already, I am more interested in the idea of a 5v5 flex queue. After all, that would still have a set composition of 5v5, but have a bit more freedom as now the 2-2-1 limit is now applied to all roles. Of course, if they were to do this, then they would also know that much of the issues that are happening with Tank would just transfer to the other roles, and if not properly handled, it could lead to more problems. As such, perhaps one solution they could do is have it where the solo roles get enhanced in some way as a form of compensation. To me, this sounds like Role Enhancements could be it. Specifically, we can have it where the one player to choose one enhancement for their hero, which can be categorizes into 3 options: Tank, Damage, Support. Think like the QP Hacked event with selectable passives mixed in with Mirrorwatch and April's Fool ability changes. That way, it can specifically tailor and enhance a playstyle of the player for the hero, and maybe even for the entire team. For example: -Solo Reinhardt? Champion (Tank) - Charge is now Fortified Berserker (Damage) - Firestrike now creates a firewall in its path and now does damage over time Commander (Support) - Shield is now slightly expanded and curve with more health/regen -Solo Soldier 76? Front Line (Tank) - Allow a super sprint with damage resistance, but slightly longer to ready weapon after Side Line (Damage) - Rockets deny healing on direct impact Back Line (Support) - Make his healing field attached to him -Solo Brigette? Guardsman (Tank) - When shield is up, health regen passive decreases for teammate when in close proximity Combat Medic (Damage) - Whip shot become Whip Slap (think Rein's Swing) Strategist (Support) - Remove 1 Repair Packs for 2 Armor Packs (think old Torb)
Don't even need to watch the video to know that the answer is a HELL NO. Much longer queues, nightmare balancing, performance managing, too much going on at one time... just to name a few reasons.
I recommend watching the video because he goes on about that we should at least try it to see if it even work because he goes on about if we go down 6 v 6 route and completely disregard 7v7 and spend few years on 6v6 just doesn’t work then we wasted all that time when we could of at least see if 7v7
@@Codyb162 It's dumb because if you can't balance and make 6v6 work then 7v7 won't. Taking the data of 6v6 and seeing where the problems of the format are over the years isn't wasted time lol fuck are you on about. You can use that even if we go to 7v7 to actually see if that's worth talking about. How about we work on 6v6 the most stable we saw the game and then talk about variations after we know the weak points of that and where it can improve
@@Hydroelectirc The biggest harm is that the engine used to build the game isn't designed for 7v7. Going from 6v6 to 5v5 and vice versa is significantly different than 7v7. It's much more resource heavy not to mention expensive that at this point it isn't worth it.
In ow1 there were more dps characters than tanks and supports combined. And somehow there is a surprise pikachu face on how the dps is the most popular role
@@michaelconner9208I remember him saying it was a high school nickname or something. I don’t remember why exactly, but I think it’s because he beat someone in a fight by crushing them? Maybe I made that up.
The main issue that could happen with 7v7 (excluding engine limitations) is the maps not being suited. A lot of the newer maps are so fucking wide and open that the crossfire angles could become oppressive.
Flats is completely right. The player base is the hardcore ow players now and isn't gaining new players. I'm playing against the same players I've seen since ow1 now. What casual players are gonna pick up ow now with it being as complex as it is? It's like any other big competitive game. If you didn't play from the start, you have to put alot of effort and time to even understand the game.
7v7 seems way too much and especially for Support heroes. Perhaps they could do a compromise and go with 6v6, but with 1-3-2 to keep queue times low. The catch would be to add a new mechanic which lets all Tanks grant a buff to one of the Damage heroes. Almost like Zen's handing out his harmony orb to one player. This buff would give that Damage hero more responsibility since they're more expected to make plays with the extra power, and it takes the spotlight off the Tank a little. Perhaps the mechanic could be like... when the buffed Damage player deals damage it boosts the Tank's Ult charge. Ad when the Tank mitigates damage, it boosts that buffed Damage player's Ult charge. So they can work together on that, or some other mechanic which promotes teamwork between what is effectively like a Captain and Vice Captain. There are a number of things they could explore. Just trying to think of a way to do a pseudo off-tank with 3 Damage heroes if the queue times are the real deal breaker for 6v6. But it could perhaps introduce even more issues.
7v7 is an idea. But to act like we would be "going in circles" with 6v6 is disingenuous because we know the issues with 6v6 were balance issues. And you know they were balance issues Flats. Open Queue hero limits can address the 6v6 queue times. If two players deselect their role either player can choose from either role until it's relocked. Saying we could go in circles again justifies the move to 5v5 and I don't think 5v5 is ever necessary. Role Queue caused the queue issue.
I think considering the balance was initially designed for 6v6, it likely can be perfected to a state that the issues that come with 6v6 can be ironed out and the vast majority will be happy. I think trying to up the dps slots specifically to reduce queue times will overall reduce the quality of the matches. It also reduces number of players that may try the other roles if they have decently long queue times. Improving the experience and incentivizing players to play support and tank should be the priority. Personally I would like to see a commendation system implemented that is similar to dawngate, where players were incentivized to be kinder to the more difficult roles and those roles were given better rewards for playing them while being nicer to other players. I would recommend looking up pirate software’s description of it as it is the best description I have seen.
To Flat's point, I think 5v5 vs 6v6 vs 7v7 is equally desirable to new players. All new players care about if the game is good/well received + accessible. The game has always been accessible. I support 7v7 though personally. Think it would be the most fun peak Overwatch, the chaos would be glorious
4:00 This made me realize that I have had the mindset of a Main Tank, even in Overwatch 2. Still got a bit of both, of course, but there it's leaning more towards Main Tank than Off Tank for me.
Cassidy? Check
Training range? Check
Aimlessly walking about and occasionally shooting bots? Check.!
Yup, this is a Flats video FOR SURE.
Don’t forget the little beep boop music he includes.
@@ZE3KFEaRs Too be fair, terraria had some good music.
Beats OG Seagull constantly punching the ground as Junkrat, though not by much.
@@shadowstep1375You're not wrong
@@ZE3KFEaRs Music is from Terraria :)
Its gotten to the point where I unironically back up the enemy tank when their DPS starts flaming them. We gotta stick together.
SAME OMG
It's always that 0-0-10 widowmaker that starts spewing TANK DIFF MTD TANK DIFF OUR TANK SO BAD in chat when their poor Rein gets absolutely blasted by Bastion Mei Zen, I always back them up, tell them they did a good effort, held as much as they could
omg i thought i was the only one
Nah I have too much fun watching the enemy team fall apart for me to defend the other tank. I'd rather get in the enemy team's head and encourage the flaming. Also that means that if I get players from the enemy team, they'll also be more happy to see me on their side.
Dude I don't even care if the tank in question was playing poorly, I always defend them in chat.
“I dont think the engine can handle it” *me in the 500% ult gun game custome game with 30 other people*
7v7!?!? What about 4 dwarves in a cavern fighting creatures in Deep Rock Galactic!! Flats, bring some friends and hop in!
“By the beard, rock and stooone!”
ROCK AND STONE
ROCK AND STONEE TO THE BONE
IF YOU DONT ROCK AND STONE YOU AINT COMIN HOME
FOR KARL
ROCK AND STONE BROTHER!
Without watching, ima say that since DPS players are selfish and incapable of teamwork, 7v7 is the only way to both solve DPS queue times *which is 100% a self inflicted issue* and tanking.
I think we can just try to make the other roles more fun. No one wanted to queue tank when the only viable heroes were sigma and orisa. No one wanted to queue support when there were like 6 supports in the game. No one wants to queue tank in this dog shit format. I mean just look at doomfist. He has his own community that will play him no matter what and that helps with queue times. If we add more fun options like doomfist to the tank role and support role and keep the game balanced, people will queue for those roles.
@@abdx8752The problem is that games think that because more people play dps they should have more characters in the dps role. But that just leads to more people wanting to play dps because there’s more characters in that role.
DPS players are not selfish for wanting to play the most fun role in the game
@BananaWasTaken this. Holy shit, this. There's like double the amount of dps as any other role, so of course there's more people interested in playing dps
@@abdx8752This is the counter argument to the bs “queue times” argument. We saw in Oct 2020 what happens if every tank is viable. Insta queues
As a veteran player, I'd be more inclined to play a 7v7 game of old overwatch where teams had an understanding of their role and could coordinate plays than the death match free-for-all current overwatch has become.
In OW1, it didn't take a genius to say oh, let's grav-dragon, or oh, let's shatter-bomb. But nowadays, I rarely see any effort to do anything remotely team orientated when that was a fundamental aspect of the game and people prefer to be the main character, which the current dev team has only facilitated with changes to make each character viable on their own
It's not that they added individual playmaking or self sustaining capabilities (that is fine), it is that they took away a lot of the old stuff teamwork strategies and combos being an option as much.
I remember being a lucio in 2016 booping up an enemy rein so our rein could shatter under him while our Zarya bubbled me. Or even having a backline with off tanks serving as protectors able to peal/play for picks and make more unique playstyles.
If anything removing oneshots is removing individual playmaking and some major variety in strategies that used to be present in Overwatch 1.
The problem with 5v5 is that it gives more power to individuals so it's not necessary to have a combo if you can kill them on your own. And since the biggest threat and hitbox is the tank the tank gets focused the most.
Also the teams are way more split up which leads to two problems:
1. Ult combos are way worse. When was the last time you hit a 5-man shatter, flux or grav. Gravdragon isn't worth it if you solo grav the Ana
2. If the enemy tracer dives the Zen alone in the background it's harder to peel for him. Especially without an off-tank
Additionally Overwatch got way more toxic. Nobody is in the voice chat and everybody starts flaming after losing the first team fight. The word "diff" has the OW community in a chokehold :)
This is probably because OW2 is free to play and draws in some.... interesting players
"Viable on their own" with every new support having mobility and offensive capabilities/huge survivability so they don't need help from anyone... you'll never see a character like Ana released anymore, and yet she's the most beloved support in OW because she's team-oriented, has a high skill-cap, and isn't an ego-centric Avenger or unkillable healbot.
You never see any team play because most support abilities on a 10 sec cooldown that requires no mechanical skill what so ever can override and play the game for you. Why would you waste your time om team play when a Baptiste can look at the ground and press E and save his entire team.
I found the idea of 7v7 interesting, but imho the main problem with ow2 losing its playerbase is not in the issues with 5v5, but in the fact that many players used to come play because there were free reward events, coin farming for cosmetics and lootboxes. Now this motivation is gone and there are only battlepass levels full of useless sprays or nametags + all good stuff locked behind shop
It's ridiculous how scarce the "non-premium" currency is. Credits were designed to be grindable, now we just get these commie rations of them as an occasional allowance. Like, the LEAST they could do is give us bonus credits for spending Overwatch coins, it would get more people spending money on the game, but ideally, we'd have that + varying small amounts of credits for completing matches + small amounts earned from daily challenges so there's a reason to care about them even after finishing the battle pass
I would much prefer to only make one $40 payment every 5 years or so and just get all the cosmetics again like we used to.
But I don't think our playerbase numbers are going down right now. Of course we aren't as popular as 2016 Overwatch 1, but that was a better game from the casual/fun perspective and we were getting awesome cinematics and everyone was hopeful of the future back then. 5v5 is doing well despite it's horrible monetization because we are getting content and it's free.
I am kind of indifferent between the 6v6 vs 5v5 vs 7v7 thing. But if I had to pick one I have thought 7v7 would be the best peak version of Overwatch since they said they were doing the original tests of it like back in ~2019 when queue times first became a major problem.
Remember that a horse in the shop made more money than the entire Starcrart 2 game as a whole 😅 people are ruining it not blizzard
That’s what drive me crazy, you want more new people to come, but they are so damn stingy with credits. Like serious a bunch of old ass skins, and earn enough just for like 1 skin. Should be 5x that, these are old skin.
yeah there's no reason to play.
As a season 3 OG, mainly solo queue flex player, I don’t want “more individual impact” i want to be rewarded when I find the instances of good teamwork.
I want both as an OG Overwatch 1 S1 launch player
*bags table emphatically*. Preach!!! The game lacks the need for teamwork or coordination.
That is dreadful.
And I’d much rather have More individual impact
@@kingauther7812 An individual shouldn't be able to EASILY just Rambo a coordinated team. A coordinated team should be able to shut down an individual player. Doesn't mean an individual player can't have impact. Currently it doesn't feel like there's much individual or team impact. Just feels like a sloppy game.
confession - i kinda love the idea of 7v7 lol
It sounds like absolute madness in the best way possible, and after the simplicity and kinda boring/samey games of 5v5, I'd rather have that less consistent but more fun/crazy experience I couldn't find anywhere else. In the same boat~!
I agree, I want to try it
idk about how the devs will actually execute it and how it will actually play but the idea of it sounds good
I agree, and the worst part is that it might be pretty chaotic but there’s downsides to all of the options and the chaos is the best downside to choose if the rest of the gameplay works well. I wish we could have all the options at once and nobody would fight and we could just play whatever we want but there’s not enough players
Same. 7v7 is like the perfect composition
The answer is 32v32- "Battlefield: Overwatch"
The problem isn't nobody wants to play tank, the problem is everyone wants to play DPS.
There are 10 Tanks, 18 DPs and 8 Support. It's no surprise there are double the DPS players, cause they have near double the tank and mercy heroes.
Hold on, they have 18x the mercy heros 😉
And there are a bunch of "dps" that never should have been in the role like symm, torb, mei, sombra. Which most have/had support abilities.
No, Tanks are incredibly boring to play, and this is proven by MR tanks, they are massively more fun than overwatch's tanks. Only the off tanks in overwatch 1 was fun but the majority of the issues are the obnoxious other characters.
mercy heros? tf
No there's more Support players than Tank players
My issue here is that we already know what good Overwatch looks like. We’ve had it. So we’re not fumbling in the dark so much. Aside from the technical aspects of reverting to 6v6, it still makes the most sense given that there’s a blueprint both between the 6v6 code and the October of 2020 patch.
We have literally no idea how to practically make 7v7 work. Chances are, with more DPS on the map, you’ll still run into the problem of needing to power creep supports further to avoid stressing them out, and have them or their teammates dying over and over due to the sheer amount of possible flankers, dmg output etc. I’m all for trying it out, but I think 7v7 has potential to be as problematic as 5v5 to balance.
Instead of the tanks being forced into being raid bosses now due to the format, in 7v7 you’ll likely just move the power into supports who’ll then become the balance nightmare instead.
All I know is I miss playing wrecking ball as an off tank
Open Q, my friend
@@krazyd0nut404yep that’s the best thing for now until 6v6 returns
Still wish he addressed the 7v7 issue with supports. Chat kept saying "Supports would be overwhelmed"
I shuddered imagining trying to support all that. So I'm curious on the ways to fix it. 3 supports 3 dps 2 tanks? But that's a looot
It would be fine with some cooldown buffs and a swap to more aoe healing
Tbh, as a support player, I would be fine with that. It would mean support might be more focused on healing instead of killing, which is a switch that I haven’t enjoyed.
Support players need to come to terms with the fact that they can't save everyone at all times. Finding the key teammates that need the most support and letting the lesser important teammates die during the fight is what separates good support players from great support players.
@@Shzl47 well when DPS players and tank players come to terms that its not supports fault, then we can talk. Id rather not be playing support to have some randos yell slurs at me for not keeping them alive
7v7 seems insane to me when 6v6 is right there.
Sure 7v7 would "technically" solve the Qtimes issue, but lets just think about it logically.
1. You now have 3 DPS on the Field, meaning more damage, meaning balance needs to be adjusted again to fit a format where theres now 3 DPS, 2 Tanks and 2 Supps. We dont know if that would mean Tanks need to be tankier or Supps need to heal more etc.
With 6v6 we already know how that would all work (eg. Rein has 500-550HP, Pin does 250dmg, etc.)
2. People already complained about Visual Clutter in 6v6, now you want 2 more DPS on the field? So next to your Sombra and your Hanzo Ult you would like to have a Mei Ult too? Obviously this wouldnt happen every game but there would still be way more stuff on the screen.
3. This would probably make it even harder for Casuals because now there potentially one more DPS on the flank hunting for Supports, which takes the attention of your tank away from the frontline even more and you again just have a weird scenario where both tanks have to be at 5 places at the same time
4. Hardware Limitations seem to be problematic for 6v6 already, 2 more players (and the visual clutter of them) could be hard to implement.
Idk, it just feels like you dont want to be on the 5v5 or 6v6 side so you came up with 7v7, even though I know you have enough knowledge of the game to know that doesnt sound like a great Idea.
You were right about 5v5 in 2021, no way you dont see the Issues of 7v7
But, lets just wait for the 6v6 playtest and go from there, if 6v6 doesnt come back, i would gladly take 7v7 over 5v5, because 5v5 is just that ass.
Ah somebody with a brain!
It just won't work, the third dps is going to head hunt the support, and having 3 toxic dps types that just hunt supports will decide teamfights easy. There should be another tank and just make it 2 tanks 2 dps and 2 healers.
Dps head hunt supports already, I play high gold I’m by no means a great kiriko but I feel fking pressure already with just two dps, one is always actively trying to hunt me down.
Especially tracers and sombras who have really annoying kits. Imagine a third dps. I wouldn’t be able to heal anyone n just die.
It’s like itching an inflamed body part. The more you itch, the worse it gets and you only itch more.
What I mean by this is that 7v7 will only cause the already established problems with 5v5 to get worse. Supports have to be even MORE powerful and become do-it-alls due to all the dps on the field.
Tanks have to be even TANKIER because of the 3rd dps and to have enough sustain.
It only makes it worse
Have you played 6v6? It feels like you didnt.
1. We have to do that either way. The new heroes alone change everything. Changing the numbers i literally the easiest part about it all.
2. Maybe, just maybe, reduce visual clutter in the game then. OW1 had way less of it. Not every effect needs to have epilepsy inducing visuals. The new ults are so visual, its insane, like, maugas cage, kiriko ult, ramatra, tree... those all can be toned down A LOT. Those are also usually the worst offenders when people say its too cluttered. Not mei ult?
3. Maybe you forgot, but tanks used to be able to peel for dps. Thats what the offtank was for. And he has to peel for 2 supports either way. Ofc you need to either tone up the tankiness of those offtanks or tone down the offensive ability of the dps, but thats balance stuff. One tank to hold the frontline, one tank to protect the backline or flank, dps to flank or kill their frontline, supports to flank or hold up your frontline. thats how the game worked. thats how it could work with 7v7.
4. Thats literally his point. Tho, as I said, I think you can absolutely reduce clutter in the game. A lot of hardware limitations come from the insane visual clutter. Reduce that and its easily possible.
7v7 is a viable option. Flats didnt say it is for sure the only one on the planet. He just said its one that wouldnt just recreate the original issues while also solving the existing ones. Queue times with 6v6 are an issue. While I do believe that a large part of people not wanting to tank rn is due to tank being no fun, the same issue being the case back in OW1, I dont know if we should bet on it. I dont see why we cant have both. Like, just let the dps fight it out in 5v5 and let tanks have fun in 6v6. AI in games is good enough to just let some AI play tank, not that tanks matter a ton in 5v5 anyway, most dps wouldnt even notice.
Why does it have to be a 3rd dps? 🤔
0:14 the real culprits be the dps 🤫
Always has been loo
In open Q, you will find some of these dps only player. Will not swap to tank or support if team needs it.
Dps isn't blamed because it's a cosmetic role. Everymatch resides purely on supps and tanks enabling the dps. I promise you if both your dps suck in a game 9/10 it's not that they just suck because remember they're the same rank as you. Tank refuses to make space or in low ranks supps just heal the tank. There's a reason why in high ranks supp heal the tank less and it's because they're healing dps or doing damage
@@krazyd0nut404bro I hate dps players so much 🤦♂️ they are annoying and useless and dumb like the list just keeps going
nah
7 V 7 sounds like an absolutely MISERABLE experience for me as someone who wants to play Support. It invites Support Power Creep to comeback in FULL FORCE.
I already despise having to deal with the current format as is with having to keep my tanks alive. Who either decide I get to live because DPS are making tank unplayable since my tank is either stuck having to do nothing but block, and/or my team mates leaving me to die because I refuse to play the absolute cancer that is Moira or Kiriko. I despise Moira with every fiber of my being from every aspect, and Kiri just isnt for me, and is way too good of a crutch.
Having one more brain rotting DPS player who will either make my life a living hell thats exclusively aiming me down or just wont help me because jerking themselves off with the score board is more important is absolutely awful.
In my own personal experience having been playing and taking a break while Mass Resurrection was still a thing since I cant give a specific date.
Tank players and Support players who CONSISTENTLY play them genuinely those 2 roles have more brain cells than a majority of DPS players to my displeasure.
Is 7 V 7 worth a shot? Sure why not. But Im going to agree with Samito on this one and say that to even begin fixing the que times you need to fix the base game. Better balance, better engaging game loops, and introducing better designed characters like Juno is how you go about this to at least START.
MAUGA DOSENT FEEL MISERABLE TO FIGHT IN 6 V 6. WITH JUST SOME QOL CHANGES AND PROPER BALACING THE GAME CAN BE FANTASTIC.
I just wish theyd give us access to the que times of October 2020.... im genuinely curious to see them.
7v7 sounds like it would be a Visual clusterfuck
I’m sure if it’s implemented certain ults that take up visual clutter would get reworked. For example, Symmetra Wall which is massive would probably get reworked to something impactful dps while but also lower on visual.
Just tone down the VFX. Not everything has to look flashy.
My computer does not agree
My console does!
Overwatch optimization doesn’t agree either 💀
@@KingAgniKaino it doesn’t lol it could not handle 7v7 in the current engine
@@joshuacollins9316 is it really that resource consuming? I get fps way in the hundreds even on ultra settings in both 6v6 and 5v5 and I don't have a super good pc. My series X didn't seem to have trouble running 6v6 or 5v5 either. I don't know if it would really be that bad.
@@tanktahu According to steam gpu charts. The second most common gpu is the gtx 1650. That card was released six years ago and it was a lower midrange card. It barely handles 6v6 let alone 7v7.
Even if they don’t go for 7V7, optimising the game for 7V7 would be great anyway, because then 6V6 would work even better, right?
At the VERY least, 7V7 OQ, 14 player death match and 14 player workshop modes would be possible and fun.
This FEELS correct…
Idk if the game servers are saving any resources for spectator mode, but if it is, I'd vote to drop spectator mode if it would help optimize 7v7
@@adamkaangambrill everything would work better optimistically
6v6 still has the problem where tank queues would be way too long because of how many people queue for DPS
@@KoolAidManOGWell once Tanks stop getting blasted for existing, as they do right now, then more people should come to the role, hopefully.
Basically 5V5 Tanks are a massive commitment and can be very intimidating and just a pain in the ass. Tank duos negates counterswaps, mindless blaming, splits the debuffs received 50/50, etc.
Plus we also have new Tanks, like Junker Queen, Ramattra and AHAHHIRIRUUUURURIRUR!
Don’t have such an open mind that your brain falls out
This is what spending 6 hours a day running in circles in the practice range does to your brain.
"Content"
You're speaking from the perspective of a tank main. Adding an extra tank and dps but keeping supports to 2 is a nightmare for them. It's two more players who not only expect heals but also to hyper focus supports.
this comment genuinely doesn't understand who flats is. He has been in cahoots with the devs for years, doesn't just play tank anymore, and makes a clear and real effort that the games he plays on dps and support aren't just novelty. while you're allowed to agree or disagree, i think claiming he's only focusing on tank because he's 'famous' for being the rein guy is shallow. respectfully.
i don;t care for 6v6 or 7v7. 5v5 is yucky and i've always hated it. 6v6 was great but it still had the problems addressed. 7v7 may not be the right answer but it would be nice for experiments like those to be ran again rather than the game rebranding over and over to appear fresh.
I play support. As long as players understand that healthpacks exist, It shouldn't be a problem.
Zen would need a healing buff. (Heck, I think he already needs it)
7v7 Prolander was some of the most intersting competitive tf2 i ever watched. Im sad it cropped up so late in the games lifespan
I just had the idea overwatch Highlander. 41v41 no duplicate heros.
Sounds great
i feel like 7v7 is the excuse to not be lumped into the war of 6v6 and 5v5….
I'm a "6v6"er and even I'm interested in 7v7.
It most certainly is a deflection tactic and his mindless drone fans are eating it up.
i think it’s a fun idea
@@DenniDownBadEven you? Wow
Because both are most likely wrong? Bruv we had both for years, and devs couldn't fix the problems of either. 7v7 is the way to jump out of the loop.
Bro literally said, 5v5 has more individual impact when two gigatanks decide the team fight... okay
Nah, we add 12v12, or a conquest style gamemode with squads of 4.
The two major issues I see with 7vs7 or higher are the map sizes and designs being able to handle that amount of players and everything involving ultimate abilities at that scale. I think they're gonna have to do more than just change the number of players and their roles, until then 6vs6 is the best we got.
Nah there are definitely other major things with 7v7, off the top of my head I’d say visual clutter, the supports feeling overwhelmed (I mean just think about tracer, sombra, venture+winton Dva. on the back line) not to mention the balancing, and the game engine etc- not trying to sh1t on your take there btw, just wanted to give my view
This shouldve been the first video on the new channel flats three
Flats7
Flats Four
Flats, Flats Two, More Flats already exist
Wanna fix Overwatch? Teams of 3. One tank, one support, one DPS. You drop like 30 of those teams onto a big ass map. After some time the map gets smaller. Last team standing wins. I really think this would bring Overwatch II to a new apex. It would be legendary.
Idk where this sentiment comes from that the game is losing players when we see the steam charts steadily growing everyday
people have been saying this game is dying literally since it came out, it's genuinely ridiculous
Yeah exactly, Flats keeps saying this shit of "5v5 is making ppl run away from the game" when there are objective datas thar say otherwise.
OW2 peak player count within the last 30 days on steam was 51,648, averages 31,973 players per day. That's still a lot of players, considering the fact that we are nearing the end of the season.
flats needs to try to convince Aaron to enable 7v7 in custom games so the community can test it themselves to see if its even viable.
The reason why 5v5 isn't working is because there's no role identity anymore, at first the supports were crying about dying to much(well yeah that's usually how it's always been, picking off a support is usually the best option) and now they can output the same amount of dps and even more than the actual dps role. Then tanks were crying because it was a boring role to play and now they're unkillable and output insane amounts of dps(The reason a tank had a lot of health is so they could create space and tank dmg doing it). The game is 5 dps v 5 dps that's why we don't see as much mercy players. Every role is better at dps than dps, Tanks are dps with more health and supports are dps that can heal. (I'm obviously a dps player and this game is insufferable and I haven't played consistently in months)
I’m a tank main and you are correct bro I don’t even touch dps yet I see how many dps characters have become obsolete the other two roles are literally just better dps in ow1 a dps was powerful than a support and could in most cases win a 1v1 but now? Supports can take a crap on the dps 🤦♂️
what are your opinions on the dps passive
@@asssssssssdawdadw passives in general are a lazy way to balance the game
A huge thing I’ve noticed playing tank as a new player: It’s better with another tank. I am allowed to make more plays and get creative. And while one tank can peel the other can hold the frontline just fine! It’s crazy to have to jumble between peeling and front lining lol
No, 3 dps is too much damage, if your a dps or support and get focus fired your instantly fucked. Comps will form about jumping supports and we'll have sombra + tracer + genji, you die instantly. 7v7 isn't the answer, 6v6 is, because that's what overwatch was designed for.
you would think, but dont forget you also have a second tank that will be able to peel for the supports
So even with 3 flankers, it will be 3 flankers vs 1 tank and 2 supports.
And damage/healing values can be adjusted to compensate as well
@@charchadontooverwatch 1 tank/6v6 tanks would get shredded by 3 dps. No matter how you shape it 3dps is too many, unless you made both tanks overwatch 2/5v5 tanks. But that wouldnt be fun for anyone.
@charchadonto but you also may have a diving tank as well- if you get dived by even just 1 dps or 1 tank, that's alot, but having 2 or even 3 dps + a tank or even 2 tanks jumping on you means there's a massive incentive to go after supports. It'll make it so support as a role is even MORE vital than it already is, since if you lose just ONE support, your team is in alot of trouble.
@charchadonto with significantly reduced shields I will have to disagree with you there is not nearly as much peel as there used to be I'm surprised they haven't taken roadhouse hook away at this point. On top of that melee/short range characters would feel God awful.
@@NoHeros247 lol roadhouse, my favorite overwatcher character
You gotta remember that the queue times were so long on dps in overwatch 1 were so long because dps had way more heroes than tank or support. But OW2 has 4 more tanks & 4 more supports and the gap is closing soon.
This is what we call someone who wants to sit on the fence but hates being a fence sitter.
A contrarian
I think 7v7 would just repeat some of the same issues 5v5 has since it's another format with lopsided player counts in each role. Supports/tanks overwhelmed, over-buffed to compensate, damage coming from everywhere, etc. 7v7 would solve the queue times issue as a baseline, but so did 5v5, and look how that turned out. A lot more has to go into making 7v7 work like map design, optimization, breakpoints, core gamemode revisions like spawn times and stalling reduction, etc. I don't think 7v7 is some magical fix-all to the current problems we have. It has a ton of issues that we haven't seen yet. I'm still pro 6v6, and people also claim it's not a fix-all either, but the difference is that we have 6 years of data on how 6v6 functions. The main problem will always be the balance team. Still, I'd like to try 7v7 for myself.
As a tank main, the amount of abuse you get if you die or make one bad decision is ridiculous. 50% of the time the errors aren’t even the tanks fault but we get blamed regardless. Something needs to change in this game.
This is one of the countless problems, but what pisses me off the most is how the brain dead is rewarded in this game. You get killed by the Junkrat or Hanzo spam, Junk grenade + mine, Reaper, Orisa hits a 125 damage spear, etc, etc.. this kind of stuff is infuriating. In my pov, entry level characters should never overperform in higher ranks, this is nonsensical design. It's fine to have Junkrat or Bastion spamming on silver and that works, entry level, let people learn the game... but then you reach masters and these characters remains viable lol such a joke
7v7 is good for Q times and less counterswap, but it'll lead to ultra mega death ball unless we're able to ban picks in ranked matches
This kinda boils down to how can you make a game where DPS has short queue times and tank is actually fun and doesn't just get yelled at every time they die
Tank is so wild right now. I had a hame the other day where the enemy DVA went 62-0 because our tank literally refused to even look at her, even though they swapped to Zarya for an entire round to counter her. The other DPS and I ended up getting yelled at at the end because we died a lot, but the problem was, we would outplay the other dps almost every fight, but as soon as we got a kill, yhe Dva would come pver amd delete us, and theres nothing we could do because we never once got peeled for at all. The fact that the Dva mever got killed once, even when our tank was playing Zarya was insane. I say this as an example of how insanely strong tank is right now, if your tank ignores you, the enemy tank(Dva especially) will jsit tun theough you like you're a college cheerleader in the football locker room.
Before watching this yes I think 7v7 would be best as a launch OW1 veteran. I would absolutely love it. BUT
We must first make sure it is possible. It would be beyond scummy of them as a company to abandon low spec players that have loved and followed the game for many years many of which have invested time and may be OW1 veterans. The technical challenges of overhauling all the systems to 7v7 would be monumental. Probably of dozens of serverside, clientside, queueing, dialogue, victory screen, and many many more systems that would have to be changed/updated before they even thought about performance, maps, or balance. I wouldn't be surprised if it took them a year and a half.
That said it would be by far the best version of Overwatch. The team fights would be monumental and I support it if it is in anyway possible. I don't care if it would slow down the pace of the game or if they have to make an extra low graphics setting I support it
It could be the answer though I worry that we’d have this period of time like we did did with tanks where we’d have to figure out how to calibrate everything. How much damage should dps do, their health pools, cooldown reworks, etc. If I had to guess, if 7v7 is an option, dps damage would ironically need to be nerfed quite significantly to account for the extra damage output of having two more people on your team. Either that or support healing would need to be buffed again to keep up with the extra health pools.
The secret real solution to the DPS issue in hero shooters is to not have dedicated dps characters everybody needs to have a certain amount of team centered abilities to work best
Or make actually unique characters that dont have to solely rely on cooldowns and instead rely on other conditions, like movement, passives, rotations, teamwork ect.
@@scotttimbrell8632 I agree with this guy too many fights are won and lost because of cooldowns. Especially as someone who use to main Mercy (I get it she’s bad, I still love her) the fact I gotta wait 30 seconds because oh no I tried to go for a res and I got murder, but if a Sombra/Soldier/Venture uses their abilities and die while it’s on cooldown they get it back immediately. It makes no sense and I get it Res is op with out some sort of drawback, but 30 seconds???? Seriously Blizzard???? The fact is Overwatch should take a note from Marvel Rivals and make shit actually about positioning again and not who can do the most stuff at once
IMO the solution to the DPS problem might be to step away from Tank/Support/DPS as your class division altogether. I'm a big fan of Team Fortress 2's "Power/Support/Specialist" setup, myself. It's a setup where the responsibility of doing damage is equally spread across the team, and the roles are more about the kinds of fighting (or otherwise) the classes do. Essentially: Snipers, assassins, mosquitoes (like Tracer), turrets and weirdos are Specialists. Characters whose primary utility isn't their ability to kill people are supports. Everyone else is a Power character.
Naturally you couldn't do this with Overwatch, they've kinda already dug that bed, but I think it might be something worth considering for future hero shooters, especially since, at least according to Flats, Marvel Rivals is running into the same lack of tanks problem.
@@maxbustard1720 I agree, and my point is proven due to mercy players like yourself enjoying the freedom of your movement, it's one of the least restrictive movements in the game, just like MR has massive movement freedom. It makes it feel like you have more control over the game and your character rather than being an NPC waiting for the adventurer to come back.
Rez is even proven to not be op in MR with a character who mass rez and can selfrez/give self Rez to certain characters. I mean did you really feel that it was unfair they all got respawned? I didn't. It was balanced properly, blizzard just doesn't know how to create characters and balance them
Naah, just make tanks and support fun to play. Marvel Rivals had a recent example, they introduced Captain America and Winter Soldier, Captain has like 45 different abilities as a tank, WS is a dps busted as hell... and it seems like most players embraced Captain instead, just because his gameplay dynamics are more engaging. People pick dps because they are dynamic, in Overwatch "2" there's only a couple of tanks and healers who offers this kind of experience, Doom, Hammond, Lucio and Juno... that's it. And all these characters are weak and tryhard, saved by Lucio (he is pretty strong, but tryhard). Captain America is not tryhard, he is fairly strong and dynamic, THAT is the sweet spot
I just had a realization.
When overwatch goes back to the 6V6 format, there will probably be a bunch of newer generation of Overwatch players that complain to switch it back to 5v5 because they weren't there for 6v6 and it will be something they are not used to.
Plus with the extra tank they will not longer be able to blame the Tank for losses and some won't be able to accept that they no longer have a solo punching bag to blame.
Maps can't handle 7v7
This, I’m surprised no one said it. Most of the maps are chokepoint hell. Now imagine if you add 2 more heroes into the mix, 4 if you consider 5v5. No one dies, overtime lasts forever.
@@scumknight6074 And then add Overwatch instabilty on top of that (it struggles to handle even 5v5 right now)
I've been making my own hero shooter for about a year now and the first thing I put in place was 7v7 cuz of mostly the same reasons of 1 tank isn't great so why not reduce queue times with an extra dps. plus I have plans for the extra dps that will shake up the playstyle of my game a bit! I'm really excited to hear about these types of discussions because it reaffirms my ideas to make a better game and I really hope my project can go far in the future! ^^
I think the biggest problem with this idea gameplay-wise is what will happen to support. I get the trying to reduce queue times for dps, but giving current supports 2 more characters to heal is a very large new weight for them. I'd almost say do 3 supports, and lean more into the play making potential of them, to potentially lure more dps mains to the role, and also reduce the pressure of supports to heal 5 people at once, and not die to the Tracer in the backline. It's an interesting train of thought though
Edit: Also bear in mind that this is coming from the mind of a flex queue console player, who has literally never touched ranked before. So if I'm making a fool of myself, that's why lol
I'm curious to see if we remove the DPS Passive, would 2-2-1 be viable. The only reason DPS apply a healing reduction is because healing got so strong nothing died with 2 Supports, maybe thats because 1 Support today has more healing output than 2 Supports at launch. Of course then you trade the Tank issue of not having a buddy to lean on over to the Supports, and are even moreso at a point of when the 1 goes down the teamfight is over.
@@aaronolson6736 the supports in OW1 didn’t get that many healing buffs going into OW2
Brig packs probably got buffed by 15 burst
Mercy got a new passive thats better than her old one
Lucio got nerfed than reverted
Bap got the double heal burst at 50% hp (before OW2 I believe)
And i think that’s it for OW1 supports
@@aaronolson6736that moves a lot of the problems that the tank role has rn to the support role. Having only 1 person in any role really messes up the psychological aspect of the game. Everyone will just blame the support instead
@@aaronolson6736 1 person trying to heal 4 people sounds like agony. As soon as your support dies, you lose.
Supports would be largely unaffected. A lot of their current kit is almost overkill for a team of 6 as it currently is, so (as a role) they'd probably need the least changes. Excluding outliers like Mercy, obviously.
DPS passive would probably still exist but would be considerably weaker because with 3 DPS, things would die faster. The passive would be required just to ensure sustain tanks don't run over everyone.
Biggest issues would be how armour and shielding would function and how to tackle the beast that is burst damage and healing. If anyone can come up with anything not too extreme for that last part; go ham.
With queue time i liked a lot that thing where if you played flex you would get a priority pass for the next game, so you could play a bit of tank and then dps, basically win-win - it made more players try out tank by being encouraged to go flex (and flex meant basically tank or support) which decreased queue times, but also gave them in reward priority queue, also decreasing queue time for them.
Love you Flats, but stop with that 7v7 thing 😭
Imagine the visual clutter, performance issues, queue times…
Queue times would become better though, and if we could handle 6v6 in 2016, then I'd hope 9 years of hardware development should allow for an extra DPS player a team. Visual clutter will always be an issue no matter how many players, that's the nature of overwatch's flashy abilities.
Now join hands with me, put your faith in the Oracle, as I have, and await 7v7
Mauga cage, Ball mines, Sym Wall, Hanzo Dragon, Torb Lava, Kiriko ult, Life Weaver Tree. Goodluck doing anything
@@user-rg9co7dk2r noooooo
nah 7v7 no limits all OW1 old sym with 42 total turrets and 7 shield generators giving 525 shield total to each sym. Thats peak right there
Flats refuses to pick a side in the 5v5 vs. 6v6 debate, so he’s making up his own (bad) idea
I really think they should bring back the defensive role. Change the trait to half tank and half dps. 7v7 with 2 tanks, 2 dps, 1 defensive, and 2 support.
Tanks would absolutely be bullied in a triple dps format .Especially of they have old ow1 cooldowns and HP .
Obviously ow2 tanks would be better suited for a 7v7
While I appreciate the sentiment of trying something drastic to fix this game, what Flats is forwarding as a format change is honestly another lazy change that will be trading one devil for another. And it won't be a longterm net positive. If we are gonna do a major change (which 7v7 would require huge changes) then we need to get more creative with the format beyond +/- players on a team or role passives. We've taken that route, we know its a hollow road, and if we are going to experiment with big changes again, I'd rather come up with something more creative and substantive in addressing this games issues.
I think Flats is far too dismissive of the drawbacks of 7v7. 1.) The current maps are too small to host that many players, absolute chaos, CC overload. 6v6 is barely tenable for many players. "Oh but 6v6 was fine" says the OW1 player. Many players have adjusted to 5v5, and a massive portion have only played 5v5. Imagine ram ulting, tree, kitsune, primal, blizzard, photon barrier, dragonstrike, another ram ulting on their team, and echo copies mauga and drops a cage. What a shxt show. Common for ult dominos in metal ranks and that's only 2/3rds of the players in a lobby, there could be even more ults lol. Lanes crowded. I personally don't mind the large particle effects that OW2 character designs have. Its fun, its manageable in 5v5. I want them to continue making characters like Juno who's abilities can fill a good bit of screen space. Ram's ult looks badass. They will continue to make characters like this, I do not want to play in lobbies with 4 extra characters given this character design trend.
Bigger maps for 7v7...these issues become much more bearable. However, I do think it could spread the fight out and make the game feel more deathmatch-y than it already is. Current map sizes with 7v7 isn't ideal, and expanding map size isn't ideal. Spacing, visually overwhelming fights, and general screen clutter will 100% be an issue. Flats is too dismissive, he only says "gamers have learned the game" and "well I don't remember people complaining in 6v6". Even if gamer's game knowledge has "advanced", when your screen is so full of visual fx, you get less info about what's actually going on in the game and you play worse because you can't see shxt and everything is happening all at once. Reminder 7v7 adds 4 players to a lobby. HEY YOU. I'm talking to the metal rank + low diamond player reader, not Mr. streamer top 500 or 10% of players in Master or higher. Imagine 4 players being added to your comp games and if you really believe that won't get cluttered.
An alternative idea that's neat: ADD A NEW ROLE. Take the concept of off-tanks/tank enablers from ow1, make it an official role in OW2, fill it with reworked characters from every role in the current cast AND add some new characters.
1.) stick with 5v5, but ADD A NEW ROLE. I envision this role roughly as a "Sub tank" type role. Maybe you call it defense or defender, the branding doesn't really matter. What this role would ultimately do is take/redirect damage pressure off the tank specifically. Maybe you rework the healthpools, damage, and ability tweaks to characters like mei, torb, Zarya, sym, bastion, Dva, brig, JQ, Ball. Make small characters hitboxes 10% bigger, large 10% smaller in new role. Add a couple new characters. This role would ideally probably do low damage, but have the ability to mit/absorb/redirect/tank a fair good bit of damage. They have to have enough damage pressure to get attention (maybe they are naturally 1st targets because they are fight sustainers) but this would allow tanks more flexibility to make their own plays, allowing fights to maintain excitement because the tanks are enabled to make plays without being buffed. Makes tank more fun (tank players want fun, not buffs), you could even nerf tanks if the new role enables them TOO much at current tank balancing. Maybe you call it "Tower" and the 'general' flow is that as long as your "Tower" player is alive they can gate keep elims on dps/supports, but tank and backline have to peel for Tower when they are getting focused? Something to that general effect. I'm being specific here on numbers and characters, but I'm just spitballin ideas out there so its something to work with and shape.
Add 2 new dps, 2 new supports, and 1 new tank to those roles, because they lost some roster to the new role. Overall comp: 1 Major tank, 1 Minor tank, 1 Dps, 2 Supports. Maintains benefits of 5v5 and adding a new role gives you the flexibility to address the issues that are plaguing the format. Obviously a lot of balance tweaking/reworks, but remember how far OW characters have developed. Torb used to level up his turrets to level 3 which would shoot 4 rockets per second. Sym was literally a different role. Mercy mafia is strong despite a ton of reworks. I think people will tolerate changes to their characters (popular or not) just fine, and the characters can still bare many parts of their identity and previous play styles. I have no issue having my favorite character changed if it's healthier for the game longterm, and I believe everyone should feel the same.
Even if this Defender/Tower idea is trash, I still believe that adding a new role with characters that help address the 'feel' of the gameplay is an idea worth more merit than simply adding more characters to the lobby.
Let's all remember that Activision literally produces a new call of duty game every. single. year. Overwatch (and OW2/OW1.2) has been around for 8 years. This might sound like a lot to ask of blizzard, but only because they barely spoonfeed us any balance changes, skins, maps, characters, everything. We've accepted the mind games they play and ask for pennies for updates and it's pathetic. They could have redesigned this game completely 3 times over since 2016 if they wanted to. This game makes a boat load of money. They didn't give PvE. They need to do something drastic on this scale. Honestly, I think asking for 7 new characters amongst 4 roles should be bare minimum. 6 new/reworked maps, and a new fully fleshed out, realized competitive and non-comp game mode. Condense and eliminate some lesser irrelevant game modes, yeah I know its gonna piss some people off, but condense if you need to. Some sacrifices to make this game an overall better experience. I'd give them 18 months-2 years tops. I'd even tolerate only 2 character releases a year if they did this. THATS what's reasonable to ask of this lazy sloth, chat GPT pr team, greedy money hoarding suits of a company.
Yeah I know. "I ain't reading all that"
Man sorry, but I'm convinced that it's not achievable at all.
Everything in this list would probably take several years to address:
- Readability/Watchability of the game
- Performance/Engine (even if Switch 2 is on PS4 levels)
- Clash gamemode (maps are far too small for even 6v6 frankly)
- Entire Esports Overhaul
- Individual player impact murdered
- Supports go back to mainly being Healers/Victims
- Queue times won't change a lot (tanks just aren't popular in gaming, ever)
- Every damn aspect of the bloody game (game lengths, team fights, ultimates, stalling, and whatever else you can think of lmao)
I'm 100% serious when I say it would be far easier for someone else to make 7v7. A whole DIFFERENT GAME. We cannot try to painstakingly fit a 7v7 format into a 5v5 formatted game. 6v6 is already enough work as is, 7v7 would just be unreasonable in every way.
I think only performance would be an issue, for the exact reason you mentioned, the Switch probably would've trouble running 6v6.
As for hero balancing, for most heroes they could look back at earlier dev builds and implement those, and the newer ones they need to tone down.
The latter will definitely take some tries and errors, but that's similar to how the game is being balanced right now.
And the player impact being lessened, to me is a good thing, because it allows you to make more mistakes without immediately being punished with a team wipe. (in the case of losing one tank for instance)
the other points are really hard to predict what's going to happen with them, as they are mostly dependable on the balancing.
And the watchability + Esports could get stolen imo, those don't impact my gameplay.
Supports SHOULD be healers. Thats literally what they were meant to be when Overwatch released. They had abilities to keep teammates alive, with ana being QUITE LITERALLY the only support that had an ability that could secure kills (nade). The game was 10x more enjoyable for me and every single one of my friends I've talked to about it back when each role did what THAT role was supposed to do. Tanks tanked, DPS dpsed, and supports supported. This is what the game should be. 5v5 has completely skewed the conception of what Overwatch was supposed to be, and you can't even deny it. So many heroes are STILL to this day designed for 6v6 gameplay, quite a few of them tanks admittedly.
Individual player impact shouldn't be a factor here, the game was quite literally meant to be a hero-team based game, not a point and click shooter like Call of Duty. The overwatch community has seriously lost touch with what the game was supposed to have been.
What are you even smoking dude? Symmetra was literally released as a support that DIDN'T heal. Lucio and especially Zen were barely healers in the first place and Mercy also isn't a healer, but a bloody support. Nobody ever enjoyed playing with healbots, which became very obvious with LWs release.
As for the player impact, I can see the appeal of teamplay being more significant than indiviual plays but the new team realized with the transition to 5v5 that it's unfun for the majority of the playerbase to rely too much on your team lmao
It's been 8 years since OW released lots has changed. With every hero rework it became clearer that they wanted to lean more into the shooter aspect.
At this point it's clear, this game isn't for you and that's fine. Plently of people enjoy this current version of OW even with its flaws.
@@Xestern Symmetra was quickly reworked into a DPS because they realized she didn't fit in as a support. Lucio and Zens kits are largely designed to prevent death and heal, with only 2 parts of their kits pertaining to offensive play. Mercy is quite literally the epitome of a healbot, she does basically nothing else other than dps boost people. Supports = healers. The new team hasn't realized ANYTHING with 5v5 other than the fact that most heroes aren't designed for 5v5 play. Something they completely missed when they were missing that transition.
And as for "plenty of people enjoy this current version of OW". Enjoying the game, and being addicted to the game are two completely different things. The only streamer/youtuber I've seen genuinely enjoying Overwatch is Frogger, and thats because he enjoys goofing off and trolling more than the actual game, that and its his job. That with the fact that my personal friends list that used to be FILLED with people playing Overwatch has become nonexistent (could be other factors at play, obviously) makes it pretty apparent that Overwatch is in very dire straits.
Has anyone posted a video on people testing 7v7 in a custom game? I hear a lot of people talking about it but no one actually testing it out in game.
now lets do the ridiculous option. tf2 12v12 but its overwatch
Lag hell. Also Tf2 doesn’t have “tanks” and 1 main healer, players die much quicker.
I think the answer is to remove role queue and implement role limit instead. Max of two types of heros per team.
Would help immensely with queue times and wouldnt have to revert to 6v6.
It would also allow people more freedom in comp types.
Its obviously not without issues like leavers who refuse to play tank. Or having to rebalance around the possibility of only having one support or one dps.
But that's my take, i think role limit is our best option
Ive been advocating for 7v7 genuinely for at least a year now, it's the best of both words, better queues while still having duo tank
6v6 or 7v7 doesnt matter imo, only thing that i know is that 5v5 isnt working because of those very reasons, nobody wants to play tank, since you're alone, and gets blame for not doing a good job. When I wanna play tank now.. i queue for open queue, since it atleast gives me a chance to have another tank in the group.
7v7? Rein's shield would break faster than a wet piece of paper
I'm putting my idea in the wild again.
Make 6v6 a thing.
Roles queue is 132.
But, one dps can switch to a tank at anytime.
Weather, that one dps is randomly chosen to be the flex dps. Or any dps can do it but one at a time.
If they switch to tank, they would get the open queue tank health nerf. But curent tank damage. While the main tank would stay the same, but have nerfed damage, and better defensive abilites. (that's permanent, if there 1 more dps or off tank, the lone tank should be ale to stay strong. But not be the curent buffed dps tanks are. While the off tank that can come occasionally, should focus on damage and croud control. The main tank has the base stats, with less damage and more defensive ability compared to an ow 2 rank. And the off tank get thoses stats, but with a flex tank role passive that reduce its health, and defensive abilities, and give him current ow 2 damage.)
This would ease dps player into the tank role. And not make the same unbreakable death ball gameplay ow 1 had. As the second tank is a proper off tank, even with a second shield it's less efficient than trying to do damage. Wich is also my point, a dps could switch to a defensive dps, or a croud control dps. And off tank basicly. That's the whole idea.
And if it's done via the fact a random dps is given the flex role. You can have the match making adapt to the amount of dps and tank players. People getting the flex role could be someone, having locked dps role, or the tank role. If you lock both tank and dps role you get faster queue. But it's not a good option for pure dps players as you would have a chance to be placed in the tank role. So it cant be used to freely cheese a flex role where you only play dps. You would need to be familiar with tanks. And that would be the reward of learning how to play tank. You would have a better dps queue time, but you have to play tank sometimes, in addition to freely switching to tank in most of your dps games.
why stop there, what about a 9v9. 3 dps/tank/healers
What about 8v8: 4 tanks, 1 dps, 3 support
@@BananaWasTaken90 minute queue times
@@BananaWasTaken 6 tanks, 1 dps, 1 support
A better distribution for queue times would be 2 tanks, 4 dps, 3 supports. Might work but a lot of tuning would be required to avoid vaporizing people.
@@BananaWasTakenSee this guy? This guy gets it
I still wait 7-15 mins in que, no matter if im queung tank or im playing with a friend who is queing tank. I feel like we still have a issue with que times right now.
Imagine 64 v 64 in Battlefield-sized maps.
The Hunger Games lmao-
Everyone group up all
12 of our tanks are dead lol
I would love the chaos 😂 Imagine they did a game like Squad too with 10 squads of 5-6 people per team for a 50v50. Each squad has a squad leader with an additional push to talk command voice chat, then there is a squad voice chat too.
Or they could do 10v10/12v12 Halo style Big Team Battle mode with multiple objectives. That would be super fun casually
It's sad because I stopped playing BF ever since BF1, they announced the newest BF would had 82 vs 82 or something like that... then I saw the players bashing the game nonstop, the maps are gigantic and empty lol sometimes these "competitive" games try to break the mold and that usually leads to disaster, 5v5, 80vs80... if you are not competent enough to shake up the formula, then leave it be
Open queue literally solves the queue time issues with a snap of a finger. Like... I understand the issues with Open but make it a hybrid like Aaron said, Open Queue Role Lock
7v7 would be fun af, don't know how competitive it'd be, but it'd be fun, they'd have to completely delete the existence of overwatch on switch though, it'd literally have to shut down.
Me on my switch looking up from my screen for a second
"Huh"
Look, I love the Switch...but OW for the Switch was a massive mistake for OWs future
Overwatch on the Switch could be improved. I strongly support 7v7 as the best but under no circumstance can we abandon low-spec or last gen console players that would be beyond scummy. Many of them have been loving, investing time in and playing the game since as far back as 2016
@@willwunsche6940 not blizzards fault they''re too broke to save for a new console in 10 years lmao
@@zwiebeldogs they will have to release overwatch 3 to get rid of that switch platform or people will backlash like crazy.
What I find hilarious is that the way OW2 is now is how players WANTED OW1 to be. Now that they changed it everyone plays like it’s OW 1. Just teach ppl how to play the damn game blizzard
Yes. Flats can see the future, we must trust him.
7v7 on paper, seems like a great option.
7v7- 2 tanks controlling 3.5 enemies instead of 1 controlling 5. Dps still outnumber tanks/supports, so flanks and off angles still work and lots of dueling can still happen. My only worry is that supports would have to heal bot, although like flats said the playerbase is so much better at the game maby thats not much if an issue either.
12v12 is the only solution
Imagine a Pvz garden warfare style (12v12) game with dumbed down heroes. It would the ultimate casual experience.
@@anthonyreddude4713 Literally gw2 and BFN was even more casual before it got taken down
I love arena shooters but, this game is too corrupted with moba design for it to work.
I used to play support and tank, but I learned early on that Solo Tank was too stressful and stopped queuing. I really liked queen, but I can't be the tank... And then when support was playing a horror game on nightmare mode, and the PvE news broke, I just uninstalled. I honestly might come back if I could play as one of two tanks.
Im down to try this but bring back 6v6 1st
On the subject of queue times, they wouldnt be as nearly as bad as OW1 BECAUSE its a F2P game now with a much more massive playerbase.
Flat stop cooking
Flats stop pandering
The tank is best to be easiest to play but not doing much. Then everyone can have fun being tank and no responsibility, because it doesn’t do much anyway. One direction could be making tanks low damage but unkillable/instant respawn
No it is not
It’ll be interesting, I guess
7v7 and introduce more tanks, the more characters to choose from, the more people will play it
Good explanation why you think that bud
@@exoduspeanut6843performance issues, clutter, balancing issues, faster Time To Kill, more pressure for tanks and especially supports, Overpowered DPS teamcomps
Yes 7v7 could be the solution but as a person that is getting back into overwatch I don’t think my puny brain can handle the chaos that would be 7v7
Queue times will last 100 years 😂
That's not how that works at all. The high DPS queue times are almost entirely caused by the ratios of players queuing for the three roles
@@HontoNeet this doesnt make sense at all.
@@Pam234It just does. The amount of players doesn’t matter. It’s the ratio.
as a OW1 beta player
5v5
2 tank, 1 dps, 2 support
i know queues will be in the dirt.
thoughts?
No
man needs to think for himself...he's losing it trying to be an everyman guy if you believe in your stance and its solid people will flock, but everyone just wants to hold the spotlight/microphone
I don’t mind the idea of 7v7 because I was thinking 8v8 might work with it being 2-4-2 but that might be too many and too chaotic
7v7 is genuinely the worst idea of all time. It's like flats looked at all the issues that both 5v5 and 6v6 had, spent an entire video analysing and talking about it and then completely ignored all that and came up with the dumbest random idea that will never work in practice.
Did you not watch the video? He addresses this and makes genuine good points. He literally says that people jump to extremes without considering it(you). It's just a possible option, not something he thinks will fix it all.
@@wolfcat1103 no mate it’s physically impossible. He even read the article about how 6v6 can’t even run on certain systems and 7v7 is even worse. Stop glazing and meat riding Fats, he’s not gonna reward u
I've always thought a "Ground War" type mode would be interesting.
No. Give it up. Only way this could work is if the maps were huge.
7v7 will never work when the devs cant balance 5v5. Format is not a solution until the devs know how to balance the game properly.
Flats was spitting when he said that ppl immediately jump to extremes. Tbh I think 7v7 and even 6v6 is too extreme of a change from 5v5 so instead I think we go 5v6 fr
I see what Flats is going with, but honestly, I don't think it would go the way he thinks it will go.
Queue times, for examples, would see an improvement with the extra DPS, but as we recall, tank players are still the lowest player count. As such, while the DPS may find more matches at first, I can also see their queue times increases with such a change, though perhaps not as bad as 6v6. Supports would also suffer from queue times indirectly.
Tank synergies, as another example, would be brought back, but with the extra role of DPS, now it becomes a bit more different for the tanks to redevelop any kind of synergy if they are being shot from different angles. If anything, with the extra DPS on the feel, they may be the ones who dictate the tempo of the match versus the tanks, thus making tanks act like bodyguards more than ever. As a result, while 6v6 was slower than 5v5 now, this new format change could either be too slow or even too fast to keep us; it would be just chaos on the field.
Not to mention that, in addition of the queue times, Supports would suffer extremely from this format. After all, Supports complained a lot more around 6v6 versus 5v5. With the extra DPS, the Supports are just going to have a much harder time playing the game, thus leading us back to the beginning of OW2, and perhaps a resurgence of OP Supports.
As such, I don't think 7v7 is the way. While I could be wrong and would like to see it out, I don't think it is the right idea. Still a good conversation starter though.
Personally for me, it either a return to 6v6 with Role Queue or 5v5 with Flex Queue.
While people are aware of 6v6 already, I am more interested in the idea of a 5v5 flex queue. After all, that would still have a set composition of 5v5, but have a bit more freedom as now the 2-2-1 limit is now applied to all roles. Of course, if they were to do this, then they would also know that much of the issues that are happening with Tank would just transfer to the other roles, and if not properly handled, it could lead to more problems. As such, perhaps one solution they could do is have it where the solo roles get enhanced in some way as a form of compensation. To me, this sounds like Role Enhancements could be it. Specifically, we can have it where the one player to choose one enhancement for their hero, which can be categorizes into 3 options: Tank, Damage, Support. Think like the QP Hacked event with selectable passives mixed in with Mirrorwatch and April's Fool ability changes. That way, it can specifically tailor and enhance a playstyle of the player for the hero, and maybe even for the entire team. For example:
-Solo Reinhardt?
Champion (Tank) - Charge is now Fortified
Berserker (Damage) - Firestrike now creates a firewall in its path and now does damage over time
Commander (Support) - Shield is now slightly expanded and curve with more health/regen
-Solo Soldier 76?
Front Line (Tank) - Allow a super sprint with damage resistance, but slightly longer to ready weapon after
Side Line (Damage) - Rockets deny healing on direct impact
Back Line (Support) - Make his healing field attached to him
-Solo Brigette?
Guardsman (Tank) - When shield is up, health regen passive decreases for teammate when in close proximity
Combat Medic (Damage) - Whip shot become Whip Slap (think Rein's Swing)
Strategist (Support) - Remove 1 Repair Packs for 2 Armor Packs (think old Torb)
Don't even need to watch the video to know that the answer is a HELL NO. Much longer queues, nightmare balancing, performance managing, too much going on at one time... just to name a few reasons.
I recommend watching the video because he goes on about that we should at least try it to see if it even work because he goes on about if we go down 6 v 6 route and completely disregard 7v7 and spend few years on 6v6 just doesn’t work then we wasted all that time when we could of at least see if 7v7
@@Codyb162 It's dumb because if you can't balance and make 6v6 work then 7v7 won't. Taking the data of 6v6 and seeing where the problems of the format are over the years isn't wasted time lol fuck are you on about. You can use that even if we go to 7v7 to actually see if that's worth talking about. How about we work on 6v6 the most stable we saw the game and then talk about variations after we know the weak points of that and where it can improve
Yeah i also think you should watch it and keep an open mind whats the harm in having 7v7 in an experimental mode for a few weeks?
@@Hydroelectirc The biggest harm is that the engine used to build the game isn't designed for 7v7. Going from 6v6 to 5v5 and vice versa is significantly different than 7v7. It's much more resource heavy not to mention expensive that at this point it isn't worth it.
@@theJCx i guess i do understand that part but my question is theres custom games with more than 6 players on a team whats differnt about that?
In ow1 there were more dps characters than tanks and supports combined. And somehow there is a surprise pikachu face on how the dps is the most popular role
Ain't nothing flat about this guy
He’a flatter than most people who make fun of his weight lol.
Ain’t no way you saying that with FEET AS YOUR pfp😭😭
In this economy? Can’t be giving that away for free bruh
@@PiymskiTTle I'm a big guy too, I love this guy, I made this joke in his chat before he found It funny😓
Now you got me questioning why he's called Flats
@@michaelconner9208I remember him saying it was a high school nickname or something. I don’t remember why exactly, but I think it’s because he beat someone in a fight by crushing them? Maybe I made that up.
The main issue that could happen with 7v7 (excluding engine limitations) is the maps not being suited. A lot of the newer maps are so fucking wide and open that the crossfire angles could become oppressive.
Flats is completely right. The player base is the hardcore ow players now and isn't gaining new players. I'm playing against the same players I've seen since ow1 now. What casual players are gonna pick up ow now with it being as complex as it is? It's like any other big competitive game. If you didn't play from the start, you have to put alot of effort and time to even understand the game.
The answer is playing Quick Play Open Queue 5v5, it's the most fun way to play OW2
7v7 seems way too much and especially for Support heroes. Perhaps they could do a compromise and go with 6v6, but with 1-3-2 to keep queue times low. The catch would be to add a new mechanic which lets all Tanks grant a buff to one of the Damage heroes. Almost like Zen's handing out his harmony orb to one player. This buff would give that Damage hero more responsibility since they're more expected to make plays with the extra power, and it takes the spotlight off the Tank a little.
Perhaps the mechanic could be like... when the buffed Damage player deals damage it boosts the Tank's Ult charge. Ad when the Tank mitigates damage, it boosts that buffed Damage player's Ult charge. So they can work together on that, or some other mechanic which promotes teamwork between what is effectively like a Captain and Vice Captain. There are a number of things they could explore. Just trying to think of a way to do a pseudo off-tank with 3 Damage heroes if the queue times are the real deal breaker for 6v6. But it could perhaps introduce even more issues.
7v7 is an idea. But to act like we would be "going in circles" with 6v6 is disingenuous because we know the issues with 6v6 were balance issues. And you know they were balance issues Flats. Open Queue hero limits can address the 6v6 queue times. If two players deselect their role either player can choose from either role until it's relocked.
Saying we could go in circles again justifies the move to 5v5 and I don't think 5v5 is ever necessary. Role Queue caused the queue issue.
Guys, 4v4, I’m calling it, best option: 1 Tank, 2 DPS, 1 Support. I know it fixes nothing, but it is better fr. Or maybe 8v8? 😮
I think considering the balance was initially designed for 6v6, it likely can be perfected to a state that the issues that come with 6v6 can be ironed out and the vast majority will be happy. I think trying to up the dps slots specifically to reduce queue times will overall reduce the quality of the matches. It also reduces number of players that may try the other roles if they have decently long queue times. Improving the experience and incentivizing players to play support and tank should be the priority. Personally I would like to see a commendation system implemented that is similar to dawngate, where players were incentivized to be kinder to the more difficult roles and those roles were given better rewards for playing them while being nicer to other players. I would recommend looking up pirate software’s description of it as it is the best description I have seen.
To Flat's point, I think 5v5 vs 6v6 vs 7v7 is equally desirable to new players. All new players care about if the game is good/well received + accessible. The game has always been accessible. I support 7v7 though personally. Think it would be the most fun peak Overwatch, the chaos would be glorious
4:00 This made me realize that I have had the mindset of a Main Tank, even in Overwatch 2. Still got a bit of both, of course, but there it's leaning more towards Main Tank than Off Tank for me.