Littlefinger Vs. Varys - Who Played the Better Game?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2017
- LittleFinger Vs. Varys - Who Played the Better Game?
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Margaery was one of the most underrated players imo
honestly id say her and olena were the equals of varys and littlefinger
What is imo
ISeeTrees ofGreen no they weren’t equal players to little finger, he can manipulate any situation to his liking. Those two are good but not that good
Gobind Singh in my opinion
Cersei was very underrated in this vid. I hate her but she ended up beating Margaery and doing a Rains of Castamere on the Tyrells!
Both Littlefinger and Varys deserved better deaths!
Actually Varys deserved to live!
I wish Varys escaped
I would have liked to see Varys live at the end. Be funny if Littlefinger talks his way out of everything and evades the wrath of The Starks........ Then...... Gets killed by a White Walker when they are invading all of Westeros lol. This series ending on a whole reminds me of these films Disney are creating that are putting the "Star Wars" name on it. Could have been done so much better.
@@FunkMastaMegaFlex with good writers at his back Littlefinger would have just recruited the Nightking ^^
(But honestly, just imagine if Littlefinger had the Vail Soldiers ride down both Boltons and Starks through a lie and then bring Cersei not only Sansas but also John and Ramseys heads.
What did he gain from that? Incredible trust with Cersei and he would now be the warden of the North. And he would have gotten rid of a witness that new that he killed Joffre and that he saved her).
Just imagine that happening, that would have been an amazing plot twist (or at least one worth of little finger in my opinion)
@@S-Asker Now that would be interesting if he killed both Sansa and Ramsay, John is alive just to hunt down Littlefinger to get revenge. And yes Littlefinger becomes the warden of the north. However when the Night King emerges he will have an opponent he can't bargain, deal with, reason, or use acts of deception. The Night King (with the good writers) is basically death and there is no bartering or negotating.
The best player is Hot Pie... he doesn't give a damn about anything except making his pies, and Arya. That's a winner in my book lol
Jose Lopez the only happy ending
Hodar, has him beat by a mile. All he wants to do is hold the door.
LMAO
but imagine if he didn't tell Arya that John was in winterfell, and Arya makes it to Kings Landing.
Jose Lopez
Hot Pie is literally the best player. He secretly put a bit of slow death poisen into each one of his carefully crafted pies. Throughout the series many major characters have eaten his delicious pies. Arya, Sansa, Littlefinger, Podrick, Brienne etc. He carefully calculates his every move and once the whole continent of Westeros starts bleeding from their noses, he starts to make his way to Kings Landing to sit on the iron throne.
This may sound cliché, but the “chaos is a ladder” scene in Game of Thrones is, and will be forever, one of my favorites. The music, the slow build of the dueling ideologies... the careful, precise game Varys and Littlefinger play with their words still gives me chills. One of the best scenes in the series by far.
Yes, it's a classic scene. One in which we see two true intellectuals sparring. When done correctly it can be just as enjoyable to intelligent people as any sword duel.
Word!
I just remember the sentence....".........to a man with a full purse" forever
I absolutely agree
One of the best scenes in cinema history
Chaos is a Laddah
Tarek AL-Jawi
I love that!
Then somebody missed a rung.
It broke
"Chaosh ish a laddah"
😂 yes
As a player in the beginning, Littlefinger was better. However, he has 2 flaw that Varys does not have. 1. Littlefinger kept wanting more and more power,while trying to stay in the shadows. As someone gets more power, you become more noticed. More and more people will watch the moves you make or made. 2. Littlefinger could not get pass his love for Catelyn, and when he could not have her, he projected that love for her daughter, Sansa. Trying to find ways to have her and to isolate her, but this backfired, since unlike the Tullys, the Starks were raised with a pack mentality. While she will argue with her siblings, she would not betray them or kill them. Varys has always had the upper hand in the endgame since he shows more patience to out play Littlefinger, just waiting Littlefinger's weaknesses to destroy Littlefinger.
i love you already, you have my like. Varys stays in the shadow while littlefinger slowly expose himself that led into his demise. On the dragonstone scene with danaerys (season 7), that dialogue is very important to Varys because some ruler does not want to be dictated or undermine thats why Varys he is careful in dealing such thing but when he was confronted by Danaerys and reminded him that he can tell directly to her if she goes bad. Varys was pleased.
I also think there is another mistake that littlefinger had and that is that he lied quite often. Varys rarely lied to people, he often omitted information and spoke cryptically to confuse them but he almost never told falsehoods. He did it if given no other option or the reward was big enough but he was far less inclined than Littlefinger. He also almost never outright backstabbed someone. Little finger makes promises and then betrays them. Varys doesn't make promises to anyone, he keeps saying that he serves the realm and not any one person. He doesn't take advantage of the emotions and personalities of other people in insidious ways.
This means Varys has no personal friends but no personal enemies either. He is the classic "known to all but friend to none".
Petyr has friends though and he makes sure to manipulate and use them. He get's people to trust him and come to him for help. He makes them promises of friendship and then he reveals them to be lies when he is in an advantageous position.
His lies usually ruin the people he uses it on but it still carries a risk. After all if someone he expected to fall somehow does not he has destroyed his credibility with them forever. That is the difference between them. Varys is very cautious and expects things to fail and backfire for him. So he makes sure that the setbacks aren't overly damaging. Petyr is more a gambler, a calculating and brilliant gambler but a gambler nonetheless. If Caitline had not trusted his word and done her own research he would have greatly harmed his reputation with not only her but Ned and the Tywin as well. If the Tyrells had for some reason rejected the marriage proposal he would have come back in shame and could have been stripped of his position.
Little finger's greater risks do bring greater rewards but they can also end up backfiring since it makes him enemies. By book 4 there are many people who despise little finger while there is almost no one who despises Varys.
"unlike the Tullys, the Starks were raised with a pack mentality. While she will argue with her siblings, she would not betray them or kill them."
Ironically, their House Words are
1.FAMILY
2.Duty
3.Honor
@Baby Yoda You can blame that on shitty writing
@@bortonshort3761 lysa arryn didn't really fit that mould, did she? She poisoned her husband.
Little finger is just brilliant.. How they killed him is just disrespectful to all of his build up throughout the show. Also gotta love Varys. Another brilliant, yet more mysterious character..
what if the theory is true that Littlefinger has connection to the Faceless men and didnt actually die
Tyler Pax I really hope that’s true. The way they casted off one of the best characters was disappointing
Yeah. Its so annoying when you’re really good at a game but let killed by some kid using hacks.
I mean the only reason he lost was really because of bran being able to see everything he was doing and telling sansa otherwise she probably would have lost to him.
@@renren225 The only reason aegon conquered westeros is because he was cheating with drag00ns.
just realised, the two strongest forces in the game of thrones are the unseen forces of chaos versus order, represented in human form by Petyr 'chaos is a ladder' Baelish and Varys 'peace and stability' [no last name]
Yin and yang if you will
That's a good thesis statement.
the eunuch has no last name
"Blackfyre" maybe ;)
The full name of Varys is Varys Dothrak
Little finger wants what everyone else wants: lands, titles, princesses, armies etc.
Varys has a vision, something you can never burn, or kill.
Nikki Warner Damn.
Nikki Warner Paraphrasing V for Vendetta?!
It´s funny because it´s propably exactly the other way around in the books.
V for Varys. I like that movie
and his vision is what? lol I think Littlefinger is far more dangerous than Varys, Varys seems like a guy who just wants to save his ass and restore peace by using schemes and all sorts of naughty stuff, whereas LF wants EVERYTHING. This last episode (season 7, episode 3) really shows you that this guy is unusual, he isn't even touched by the thought of the White Walkers and army of the dead. He seems like he saw everything and has a plan and a solution for every possible scenario, just like he said to Sansa : )
Littlefinger came out strong, but I think he's losing momentum whereas Varys keeps gaining steam at this point
Marvin the Martian you said it perfectly !
The main job of spymasters is it to watch and control their own population. Outside forces are usually an afterthought, since nothing fears a ruler more than his own subjects.
Show Littlefinger did stuff book Littlefinger would NEVER do. Like giving Sansa up. smh
I agree MtM, Varys still has not hit his stride, but everyone now knows what Little Finger is after...
You dont know what are Varys objectives, But i never forget that quote . Why nobody trusts the eunuch?. Maybe he just dont want the power like littlefinger he told to LT the he dont want the iron throne, the thing is that he have influence in essos, maybe he dont want the iron throne, he wants westeros and essos in their hand maybe.
But right now LT for me is the man with most power of westeros, he controls indirectly the vale, after all seasons stills intact, all great houses are crippled, their armies have been suffered with constant wars, except the vale, we can surely say the vale are the strongest military, they could conquer easily the north the stormlands. the kings landing too except the fact the cersei secret weapons.
But speaking only in the military part there is no force on westeros that could face the vale ofensive and defensive. For me the mistake of littlefinger was reveal their game to sansa, now sansa have the cards, It will be her that decides the future of LT basically, Follow their stepbrother or look for power for her, right now i dont have sure, she doesnt look a bad person, but after all that she passed and learning with LT she can betray John. LT like risky moves and Sansa is their highest risk move right now, in game of thrones you win or die, that for sure will happen for LT in season 7.
The real master planner is Mountain. While Starks were fighting with Lannisters he was aaaarrrrgghh
while at the same time he ggggrrrrugggggghhhhhhhhh. Real genius.
''Sshworrd''
The Mountain - Season 1
What the bloody hell did u say ?
r/ihadastroke
I lost brain cells reading this
lol i love it
LOL
Peter Baelish is way more competent in the books. he's almost charming. varys is still an enigma
The missing of young griff and homies really hurts varys in the show
Anabolic Jesus it doesn’t make sense for Varys to be plotting to put a Targaryen on the throne in season 1 if there’s no young griff
Varys disappeared in the books then boom out of nowhere kills kevan what a legend
Precisely this. fAegon not appearing in the tv show completely neutered Varys’s schemes since he wasn’t trying to make Viserys king with a Dothraki horde at his back, he knew that would fail and meant to use it to destabilize Westeros so Griff could come it and look like the hero kicking around the Dothraki and saving the day. The show ruins that because Varys funding Viserys is an idiotic idea at best
Varys planned the death of Kevan and Tywin, he warned Jorah about the poisoning attempt ordered by Robert with his advice to convince Drogo to invade Westeros. After killing Kevan he made Cersei believe that Tyrells did it to gain positions in the small council, he will have a main role as advisor of the Young Griff to take the Iron Throne
Littlefinger... is too locally focused. If it's not happening within the 7 kingdoms it doesn't really seem to factor into his plans. Varys is more of a big-picture guy, conscious of the fact that things going on outside the 7 kingdoms can still affect the 7 kingdoms. I don't think Littlefinger's ever even set foot outside of Westeros.
Littlefinger is more of a gambler, making moves with higher risk which pay off more quickly. Varys is not a big risk-taker, and he's incredibly patient, as we have seen. Maybe a little too patient for the world he inhabits.
When you think about it, they really have kind of a Tortoise and the Hare dynamic going on. And how did that story end?
zardox78 To bad none of them see the biggest picture and threat beyond the wall but I do wonder how Varys would react to it
Varys at least already believes that magic exists in this world. I don't think Littlefinger does. Even as he listens to Jon talking about the army of the dead, the look on his face says it all. He doesn't buy it. He hasn't seen it so he doesn't believe it. I REALLY want to see the look on his face when he realizes that he has no clue what's really going on and what's really at stake and what the odds of survival actually are (largely because of his interference). But I'm afraid he'll die before that realization hits him. Hope he doesn't. Hope he dies RIGHT after.
zardox78 That's true I don't think Littlefinger will believe any of the White Walker tales, nor do I think he will buy Bran being a Green Seer/ Warg which will bite him in the ass in a big way. I am also curious on Varys reaction to Bran and the White Walkers he does have a healthy fear of magical things, and people who do magic. Hadn't really taught about that until just now. Yes he is wity Dany and her dragons but it's practitioners of magic he really distrusts. I wonder if that may hurt his end game Bran having his visions, or maybe he sees Varys on the night he gets cut and tells him what he heard in the flames and really freaks him out, but don't see that happening as there just isn't enough time left. A Bran Varys scene would be awesome
If Lord Baelish doesn't believe on superstition, then why did he told Tyrion that "Harrenhall is cursed". Then Tyrion replied "I've never took you as a superstitious man". Then suddenly Lord Baelish had only wanted Harrenhall as a title and have NEVER set foot on that place since his reward coming from Joeffrey.
In the deleted scene where Lord Baelish is talking with Varys, he mentioned that "Harrenhall has a LOT of space" and Varys replied that "Harrenhall IS cursed but never took him as a superstitious man". Lord Baelish blatantly diverted the question to his next move without answering Varys back.
also varys always had more information and more connections behind the scenes
If you believe that Varys wants nothing for himself and only manipulates and puppets in service of the Realm, I have some beachfront property in Essos to sell you.
LF: Is there someone in your service whom you trust completely?
Ned: Yes.
LF: The wiser answer was no, my Lord.
...
Ned: Lord Baelish, perhaps I was wrong to distrust you.
LF: Distrusting me was the wisest thing you've done since you've climbed off your horse.
(Ned was sooooo out of the game.xDD)
Nice comment but depending on the location, beach front property in Essos could potentially be quite valuable!
_The Smoking Sea_ or even _The Shivering Sea_ might be more appropriate?
The Bay of Dragons, formerly known as Slaver's Bay.
He wants his genitals back :(
Varys cant own any land. Considering he has no working penis, he cant have an heir. As far as I know, he is a lowborn and dont have brothers too.
"The storms come and go, the waves crash overhead, the big fish eats the little fish, and I keep on paddling."
Hotpie secretly poisoned everybody with "The Slow Death" poison, which Cercie used on the Sandsnake. And then when everyone have died from eating his delicious Hotpies, he Will crawl on top of the pile of corpses on his way to the iron throne, Mwuahahahaaaaaa
HarryPottard he is azor hotpie
The poison isn’t called the Slow Death... it’s the Long Farewell
@@clayprent8753 know it all prick you just look like a twat
@@Syndixal No she looks like a fan who knows there stuff lightweight. The Fans will always be looked at like a bit of a know it all but just take that information and try to remember it.
Whenever I hear "Chaos is a ladder", I get goosebumps.
However, about Varys, no one is addressing the moment when he told Oberyn that lack of desire helps him to pursue finer goals, and then pointed towards iron throne.
So I think both of them go for the throne, only in different ways.
Varys is going for the throne totally. People tend to forget that scene. However if Varys or Dany win the Game has not finished. They can't leave an heir behind... #TeamLittlefinger (followed by Tyrion and Jaimie)
I got goosebumps when Bran said "Chaos is a ladder" when he met Littlefinger, showing that he knew exactly what kind of person he's talking to...
@@NinaNiterose86 Giving him a literal warning to leave, which for some reason he doesn't understand, lol
Varys doesn't leave anything to chance. He had his man helping raise Dany and Viserys ... and there's no way Illyrio didn't notice how crazy, cruel, and unfit to rule Viserys was. Sending him into the no-nonsense, kill at the drop of a hat culture of the Dothraki was clearly a trap to get him killed so they could have Dany rule. And Aegon is another backup plan... I think the only "luck" was the birth of the Dragons.
The dragon eggs Were a gift from illyrio ;)
Well, he did not calculate the possibility of Khal Drogo dying in, I guess. From then on, it was mostly luck.
Khals get challenged to battles all the time it was only a matter of time, you can only be a champion for so long
yes but when the khals die their wifes are sent to that dothraki city i cant remember the name the only reason dany dint went was because the rest of the khalasar saw her getting in the fire and thouhgt she was dead
rui figueiredo The city is called Vaes Dothrak
Littlefinger is amazing, Varys is amazing, but the best part of this whole thing was when the Queen of Shade told the Sand Snakes to shut up and let the grown women talk.
🤣🤣🤣
What can we learn: Networking is valuable in life and work
We really need to know what Varys heard in the flames to understand his game plan. I think there is still some mystery to his character while LF is an open book.
Agreed. His "for the realm" motivation sounds a little too selfless for Varys. Growing up as he did he's seen/experienced the hardships of everyday people more than all these Lords/Ladies and thus feels the need to advocate for them, I suppose. But without knowing for sure what he really wants it's hard to measure how close he's gotten to getting it compared to Littlefinger.
I think the Flame told him about the Night's King and army of the White, so he's trying to find a suitable ruler who can fight against them. Just my thought.
I don't think, he would know about them. If he would know, he would have payed more attention to the news of the Wall (Mormonts letter about the first wights), the Starks loosing the North.
And the same: I don't think, that Varys and LF would know about R+L=J. LF may be know, that R+L were in love, but not, that Jon is their son. Varys might know the same and he completely did not show any concern about Jon (going to the Wall, the first wights, becoming LC, anything). I think, if Varys would know, who Jon really is, he would have payed more attention about the news of the Wall and him, not completely disregarding him. And if he would have known, that the real Targaryen heir is up in the North, then he would have already searched for him.
Abby Tabby in the books there's a theory, that varys is secretly a blackfyre. And wants the young griff (a targaryen pretender) to go conquer the seven kingdoms instead of Danny. He does this because I believe that the young griffs mother is Varys's sister and they want what's best for the blackfyre name. This theory doesn't work at all in the show, which is why varys supports Danny head on.
Johan Gomez that is an interesting book knowledge. He clearly has to have some motive on the show to support Dany. Just like LF has motive behind supporting Sansa. But we do not yet know the true nature of his motives on the show. I doubt he is just doing it all for realm.
Once they ran out of GRRM material, Littlefinger became worse: he stopped playing 9D Chess like he did in the earlier seasons which is what made him a smart character. Book Littlefinger would have never been so reactionary as to not see Sansa escaping the Boltons. He probably would not have left her to her own devices and he would not have married her to Ramsay because he’s too much of a liability. That all made a lot of sense to me just now as to why people complain his character got so much worse in the later seasons.
I don't think it's reasonable to assume Ramsay's.... proclivities... are known to Littlefinger.
Bare minimum, Roose would have quashed any rumors regarding Ramsay while the Starks were in power to avoid them demanding his head, and I somehow doubt the Dread Fort is a place Littlefinger has spies in; his network is much more limited than Varys', and I don't think many people would be willing to risk being discovered as a spy with a Bolton deciding your punishment.
By all public accounts leading up to the deal with Roose, Ramsay was an effective fighter and military commander who managed to use unconventional tactics to seize difficult positions with minimal losses. Remember that up until now, the only things credited to Ramsay are pushing out the Ironborn raiders from Winterfell, and seizing Moat Cailin, both of which he did with no loss of manpower. At most, Littlefinger may have thought Ramsay was perhaps a bit "odd", but he could never have known the depths of his depravity.
That said, I'm not sure how much difference it would make if he learned of it after arriving in Winterfell with Sansa; he *needs* to get back to King's Landing to 'refresh' his alliance with the Lannisters so he can continue to play all sides, and taking Sansa with him away from Winterfell at this point opens the door for the Boltons to sell him out to the Lannisters for bringing Sansa to them.
Book littlefinger didn't marry Sansa to the Boltons...
Show: Littlefinger
Books: Varys. Everything Littlefinger does is just helping Varys with his plan. The more chaotic Westeros is, the easier it will be for Aegon to take Westeros
DarthBricksEmpire in the books they're both better but by not having griff in the show kind of reduces varys value he's just there standing next to dany
@@fahimmiah6361 exactly. Danny and Vis invading with a Dothraki horde would have turned all the people and nobles against them, which makes sense if Varys is actually funding another Targaryen to swoop in and 3rd parry them but just seems dumb when he isn’t
U forget that littlefinger still has a lot of power for himself. It’s not like he’s advancing as well
I still can't decide who is better in the books. Varys's Young Griff plot sounds like it's underestimating Dany, while Littlefinger's the long winter plan isn't quite clear for us.
Littlefinger died before Varys in the show so by definition he wasn’t better there.
I feel like Varys and Littlefinger represent two different sides of a spectrum
Whether it be Order and Chaos
Or Truth and Lies
But Varys is a self confessed 'actor' who grew up in a travelling group of actors. He isn't what you think he is. His true intentions are to win the Iron Throne himself, or to instil Littlefinger on the Iron Throne, which they have discussed together several times. Both of which needed John Snow & Danaerys to destroy the whitewalkers for them, and to bring down Cersei as well, before everyone is weakened to the point that the realm can take over. The realm being a group that are not aligned to a particular house, city, religion etc.
Littlefinger is definitely the better player (take how he won Varys over Sansa marriage to the Tyrells for instance), but his Sansa storyline led him astray, as he's heading towards his grave now as a result of educating and revealing all his plans to her.... He really let his guard down big time, Varys wins at this point as he lacks emotions.
He doesn't entirely lack emotions. He hates magic and wizards because he got castrated by one
he dead
Littlefinger lost sight of what he actually wanted. He was moving for the Throne but got sidetracked by Sansa. Don't change horses midstream, Petyr!
I suspect something similar may happen with Varys.
Sam as he smith
Luckily this didn't happen in the books yet
"little finger knows exactly what's gonna happen" luckily This was recorded before season 7
Littlefinger is WAY more ambitious than Varys. But Varys seems to consider more scenarios while planning. So, up to the start of Season 6, Littlefinger was in front. Now, Varys seems to be ahead.
Bring the books into this -
In the books Varys did have a backup after Viserys. Young Griff.
So if the show hadn't cut this character out, Varys wouldn't look so all eggs in one basket and just got lucky.
They even made sure a real lord brought him up proper, whereas Viserys just became an asshole. He had a plan B.
In the books they're both infinitely better. Baelish is this charming, helping friend, who everybody likes and trusts until it's too late not to. Varys is an enigma externally who has this master plan to put fAegon on the throne and does everything perfectly to set the stage for it. I think they're EASILY the best players and that in the end of the story they'll be the most important, together with Euron and Daenerys/John.
The most importance difference in strategy is that Varys makes friends while Littlefinger makes deals and traps. Regardless of luck or motivation behind their work, people will like Varys better. Littlefinger is a backstabber only out for himself, his scheming got him far, but in the end he made so many traps he began to get caught in his own.
This does not really fit their characterization in the books. No one trusts the Eunuch. Littlefinger puts on an agreeable enough front that he is trusted by many people. Just before Varys kills Kevan Lannister, the regent was musing to himself about how a man like Littlefinger would make an ideal Hand of the King for young Tommen.
in the real world, a trap is always more reliable than a friend. For instance, when Ned stormed the throne room with the document stating he would remain lord protector, the likes of Barristan Selmy did nothing but watch as Ned's men were butchered and he was later prisoned. A trap put in by Littlefinger. Traps > Friends. Friends have motivation, emotions etc, traps don't. And in the show littlefinger dies in a stupid way, definitely won't happen in the book. In the book I'm sure he will either die in a more respectful way to the character.
good call.
They both got what they wanted, Varys got a stable system, and Little Finger got chaos.
Little finger was a brilliant puppet master, but his decision to mentor Sansa kind of backfired on him and she killed him.
He kind of forgot about that
He was already going downhill at that point imo. A truth mastermind would have never have done that, never teach everything you know.
I think you hit the nail on the head early in your comparison between the 2. Varys is really only terrifying because of how jaded his objectives are. We all know what little finger is planning, but its still speculation with Varys, we just don't know for sure. I also think that little finger's thoughts are shown to us because his story is coming to an end :(
I think we know *MOST* but not all of Littlefinger's plans... but you're completely right, Varys is still playing this with all of his cards hidden. As Tywin said, the best way to keep a secret in Westeros is to tell as few people as possible... and he's told EVERYONE that he "only serves the realm" and is loyal to the crown. Because he wants that spread. I think that when we find out his real plan it will be mindblowing.
JS Veterans I doubt his story is coming to an end, if anything little finger is most likely going to win the game.
Lets hope so. This "plot leak" is driving me crazy since November
I don't want Littlefinger to die. He needs to get away, he started so good
Agreed heh, that's why I added the sad face :( Hes my third favorite character behind Tyrion and Varys. But his use is almost outlived and one of the last obstacles for the Starks before they can band together, hes gotta go!
Varys is mainly a Great Long Game Strategist and Little Finger is mainly a Great In Game Strategist who both can Long Game Plan and In Game Plan strategize. The thing is Varys is way better at long time planning his strategies out by setting up the environment, to then manipulate the pieces and pawns into moving the way he wanted (Reason why he like things to go according to plan) and LF is a way better within the moment in actually manipulate the pieces and pawns into doing what he wants within his plan (Reason why he likes chaos).
So it's great to be able to long time game plan, to then put everything in your favor and it's great to in the moment game plan, to put everything in your favor. The problem is I don't believe neither LF or Varys have enough time for their game to play out, cause we can see what type of strategist is the best. Winter is coming. #OneTrueKingStannis
Hey bud, first off I want to thank you for posting this comment. But I read this, and then I did some character analysis on Little Finger and Vary's, and I think you have everything backwards. Little Finger in my opinion, and what he has done on the show, book, and how he schemed with Lysa shows me that he is a better long term planner and strategist. Little Finger in regards to season 1 - 4 has amazing intuition and judgement. Anything after season 1 - 4, Baelish starts to slide down hill a bit with his plans. This is where I agree with you. Vary's on the other hand during season's 1-4 is amazing at adapting, and moving on his feet in regards to his plans, that he almost always seems sooo seem less. It was during season 5 I think when the shift between Vary's and Baelish thought processing had occurred. Baelish from the start had an unrealistic plan that didn't' seem likely to fit into the world that he lives in. But so far as he climbs, his goal becomes more and more tangible. Vary's never had such plans. Vary's from what I can infer now and from the Past is that Varys, as he has often said, does indeed want the good of the realm.
Have a look at the passage where Varys tells a dying Kevan Lannister his motives for supporting Aegon-
"Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."
Petyr has said that he want's everything. But why does he want everything? Because he wants the 7 kingdoms at feet? Is it because he wants to love and to be loved? Does he want revenge due to how mistreated he was as young man?
😂😂😂😂 Sorry I'm going to deep with this. I just love these two characters. It is such a shame that we haven't fully gotten a prime portrayal of them from the books to the show. Good day to you 😁.
FantasyMangaComic Visionary y
The Sigma Male --Wow, what an insightful and enjoyable read! Thanks🌹🌹
"But his plans were thwarted by Littlefinger."
Could have ended the argument there.
I think Littlefinger has done a huge lesson to Sansa by sending her to the Boltons she learn to not trusting anybody but a huge mistake for him (what happened on season 7).
Varys as he appears to be on the winning team, and will probably outlive Little Finger.
John W... I hope so too.
Varys appears to be on the winning team... but the psycho team as well. If he's really out for the good of the realm, he will probably betray danny eventually.
Everyone is westerors is terrified of the thought of the mad king returning. danny has to be really careful in the way she treats her people or it's going to be the same thing all over again.
John Wallace Welp he did
Varys will be burnt alive.
Varys is the best player. He survived 5 kings (mostly mad or incapable or both). Littlefinger was born in a house of low nobility but still noble. Varys was a slave treated like an object from both his ex master and the wizard who castrated him. So he is really a survivor and warrior in his own way. He endured so much, that made him both sreet smart and books smart (he's even more educated than Tyrion who was born into luxury). He also developed a friendlier persona so it's easier to trust him and give him the information he needs, and at the same time underastimating him so he won't be a primer suspect if something bad happens. His good treatment to his "little birds" is also part of his plan. He chooses children who are easier to manipulate, who are poor (something he was once, so he knows what they need) and probably with no or little family (possibly disfunctional too). So these kids are devoted to him and their number constantly increases. Petyr from the other hand, threatens his whores, so they are devoted only as far as they are afraid of him. He easily loses them all! Also Varys has the most imporant thing of all: a purpose, something to fight for, which has to be something greater than yourself. Petyr lucks that, he's only concerned for his pety interests. Having now reached the end, Varys lived longer and proved right to the last moment. The only thing that could bring down such a player was a friend, soemone he trusted, that's why he rarely trusted anyone. Sadly he was right about that, too, having his best friend betraying him. But no enemy could bring him down! Also look at the contrast in Petyr's and Varys's deaths: they were both killed by supposed allies after they betrayed them but 1) Varys insticts proved right, so he had a point to turn against his queen and 2) Petyr died on his knees begging like the little worm he was his whole life, but Varys with dignity accepting his fate (he knew the risk before anyway and was willing to take it), on his feet, saying goodbye and forgiving his best friend one last time! This made me sad sick. He was by far my favorite character in the show!
The most moronic thing was Tyrion's betrayal of varys which I think the actor who played Tyrion also admitted,than seeing littlefinger's throat cut by arya
Littlefinger should have won the game of thrones... Varys is great, no doubt about it.. but Littlefinger was kicking his ass for seasons... he won for at least the first 4... everything Varys tried to do, Littlefinger blocked and got his own goals first... the death of Jon Arryn, war of the 5 kings, the death of Ned, the alliance with the Tyrells, Harrenhall, Sansa's marriage with Tyrion, killing Joffrey, killing Lysa, the vale of Arryn, Sansa Stark, even the marriage to Ramsey played in his favor... everything was littlefinger's fault and he profited from them all....
Only reason he lost? bc Bran was an all-seeing being, and how could you plan for that??? what are the chances for that guy to appear???
D. S. Acosta little finger ain't dead he paid silver coin for his life
No. He lost because he told sansa waaayy to much info and made her smarter.
Making more moves isn’t better then making good moves, I think little finger is more eclectic but Varys is waiting for the right opportunity to seize power
Nah, he lost because he constantly underestimated Sansa.
Mark Nelson
Sansa is still shit. She would be nothing without Bran in season 7
Varys is better. He's way more behind the scenes. Littlefinger always overextended too much and it got him killed
That didnt get him killed. Well, it shouldnt have. The writers just had nothing else to do with the character so they gave him a cheap and stupid death. Littlefinger would have done so much more and there were so many ways he could have gotten out of that. This is all on the writers.
@@flotnar2512 Nah. His death made sense. It's just that it wasn't really fair.
It's not like he could've predicted a magic tree boy with visions of the past experiencing all of his crimes firsthand, then telling them to his sisters (one of whom is the lady of Winterfell, while the other one is a faceless assassin).
Usput, jebeno ime stari.
Same thing happened now to Varys :'). Shitty season though.
Varys doesn't take risks while Petyr does. Petyr lies and backstabs while Varys spreads breadcrumbs and speaks cryptically. Petyr is high risk high reward while Varys is low risk, low reward. Of course Petyr doesn't take risks unless he is certain that he is going to win but it's still a risk.
Not to mention outright lying itself is a risk. After all if it fails to ruin them like you hope it will destroy your credibility with them forever. Varys almost never lies, he manipulates by giving incomplete information and suggesting things without outright saying it.
Tywin was the Machiavelli of Westeros.
#Tywinning
The master of Westerosi Realpolitik
Not really? He was losing the war until Littlefinger saved his ass. Twice.
Dark Lord Crunch hell yeah
Yess tywingang
Tywin would've likely been destroyed by Robb if Edmure wasn't an idiot.
One of my favorite lines is from Varys "the big fish eat the little fish and I just keep paddling"
I don't think LF is not going to be paddling after Arya and Sansa are done.
Varys came from being a slave to the small Council. LF was a "wanna be" as a kid and worked his way up.
The bass line during the Varys section is so beautiful. The whole music for this section is just pure atmospheric beauty. Good job
Love the subtle backing music you added @Nerd Soup
I see 2 explanations for Varys: 1. He's a faceless man, or 2. He heard something in the flames when he was cut as a child. Something that made him work his way to the Small Council and support the Targaryan dynasty ..... as for Baelish the only explanation I have is that " the past is written, the ink is dry". His lust for power started when someone with a powerful name 'stole' his 'love'. Who also had a powerful name, so automatically no choice. Great names only marry great names. No chance for a lowborn boy. thing is Catelyn wanted Brandon, not LF. Even if she could chose, she'd have chosen Brandon. Makes you wonder right? Did the Gods make LF like they did Sandor? Sandor was disfigured as a child. Everyone feared him because of how he looked. So after a while he just played the role. Or like they made Cersei? She lost her mother when she was young. as twins she reacted even more to patriarchy. Tywin was more interested with leagacy - male hier. She was just a spoiled little kid seeking attention. Then she was married to a drunken womaniser that was in love with a dead girl (Lyanna), and never her. Cersei never learned how to love and be loved. That's why the loss of her kids (love) turned her mad queen. #where'sthegodoftitsandwine?#
Honestly, TV Littlefinger and Varys are nowhere near the brilliant schemers their book counterparts are. I view book Littlefinger as a serious contender for the Iron Throne, whereas TV show Littlefinger is nothing more than an entertaining side character.
For all the talk about Varys being brilliant in the books few of his moves have really worked, if his plan is to put Aegon on the throne with Khal Drogo and the Golden Company by his side then all of that has gone terribly wrong. We all know what happened to Drogo and just a very small part of the Golden Company actually makes it to the seven kingdoms with Aegon.
I don't see LF as necessarily wanting the iron throne for himself. He wants to rule Westeros but he can do that just as effectively from behind the throne as on it!
By the end of Season 6, TV Littlefinger has managed to rise from a spymaster pimp to Lord of the Vale and Harrenhal with the potential to marry Sansa becoming Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North! The Baratheons are all dead (aside from Gendry), the Tyrells have been obliterated by Cersei and the Martells want revenge against the Lannisters. Petyr Baelish can let the South tear itself apart then ride into KL to claim the throne for himself.
Of course, the two wildcards which could seriously rain on his parade are Danaerys and the Others...
Gendry is a bastard. And he is not even recognized as such, so he doesn't even have the right to have a bastard surname (Waters) like Jon Snow.
Mercurial Pierrot Gotta watch out for dem assasins!! 🤔
STOP comparing the show to the book goddamit
I cannot believe I actually watched the entirety of this video ... I kept wanting to stop, but I couldn't. Captivating use of the two animations and the back and forth dialogue was somewhat comedic. Good job? Overall, regarding the insights to both characters, great stuff!
Excellent work guys. LF for life!
I love this discussion. It's very deep. While listening to the debate about why Littlefinger needs Sansa it occurred to me that Sansa actually does see through him, and is planning to gain control of Sweet Robin and the Veil. Maybe by marrying Robin or Arya marrying Robin. Either way, LF is dead and Sweet Robin is going out the Moon Door, as it should be. I am afraid that Vyras may die this season after bringing certain people to Danny's cause. I like him but can't see a role for him in the wars to come.
Who would kill him? He's a hero to Dany's cause and is under her full protection. And IMO still has plenty of moves to make in the upcoming battles.
Slade, I am hoping there are some more up Vyras' sleeves; 2 more season's worth.
Linda Tarver "Going out the moon door, as it should be" I've never laughed so much 😂
if Sansa really saw through him, she would either marry him or banish him from Winterfell. She's way outclassed, it's pretty clear to me.
I feel like in the end were going to lose anyone who was certain age during Roberts rebellion. "Sometimes in order to usher in the new, the old must be swept away." And probably a good deal more people when the shite really hits the fan and all these folks finally realize the true doom coming at the from the North.
It doesn't make sense that varys planned to poison Danny and failed to do so, just for start supporting her the next season lol
I think the writters didn't know by that time if aegon was to be included in later seasons so they made Varys change his support to Danny when they decided to not include the young prince
i found this channel by total accident, and i love it! best game of thrones channel by far
I listen to a lot of G.O.T channels. I’m sure you know all of them. I just found your channel today, have been listening to your videos while at work. I gotta. Say, listen to you guys. I feel like I’m listening to the most GOT educated and informed of all the channels. Instead of having a whole video on some crazy theory that you heard from an email or some reddit post, you make videos like this using entirely canon information. It’s refreshing. It’s very clear and easy to follow, glad I found this channel, look forward to when season 8 actually comes out. You guys are awesome
Littlefinger also commanded olyvar (the boy loras fucked with) to denounce loras to the high sparrow, leading margeary and loras to be arrested. He also convicted lancel lannister to denounce cersei for having incest with him leading to cersei arrestation, the walk of shame and the destruction of the high sept of Bealor. He weakened the power so hard, and made the tyrells join daenerys.
Faffles I'm pretty sure because olyvar is one of his boy whore so he is entirely under LF commands. commands. It is possible that cersei asked for it also. Then, when he discuss with olenna in his whore market, he said at the end of the scene that he'll give a gift to olenna, as he did to cersei. Later, lancel confess his incest and cersei is imprisonned. The both cersei and tyrells imprisonnement Led to the events of end of s5 and s6
Littlefinger is the better player at this point (in the show) because Varys' present situation is an extremely lucky one: he had no hand in Tyrion's impulsive murder of Tywin nor in Daenerys hatching dragons. Littlefinger's actions have had more direct impact.
it was Varys plan to let Tyrion murder his father
Nope
okay my friend:
first the route varys and tyrion take was straight under tywins rooms
second there was an crossbow on the wall next to him when he enters the room
third there was a stool right under it so even a dwarf could reach it.
forth varys wanted him dead because of the same reason he killed kevan later on: he was a capable man who managed to unite most of westeros what makes danys or in the books the blackfyre invasion harder
+Mr Keltikus I would agree with you and add that in any moment did Tywin recognized that Shae was at his bed. However, there is one problem: one I’m saying and what you are saying are related to the books, not the show. And both, the OP and the video, are considering the show.
In the show Varys did not took Tyrion by a route that passed under Tywin’s room. Jaime leads Tyrion to a door where Tyrion would meet Varys and goes away. Tyrion, then, turns around and go kill Tywin, returning later to find Varys. In the show Varys had no part in it.
Well i guess you are right.
But then what did show Varys actually achieve before his travel to Mereen?
He seems to have done nothing.
Always come back to listen to this a few times a month brilliantly done
Love the videos! Great channel!!!
This is one of your very best videos, both sides very well thought out and argued. I think it's a toss up, both are almost perfect in the plays, but they both made a couple of mistakes, no one perfect.
23:00 "We'll do it for Winds if Winter"
2 years later......
Awesome review of two complex and amazing characters! Thank you for this :D
I would love to see a part two. I honestly don't know much about the books but I've been into the show. I kinda got into it right before season 8 started and i binge watched all 7 seasons in one go so I'm all caught up. I also find you guys very knowledgeable. I've gained a uniquely different way on how i see the show from watching you guys. I just subbed yesterday. You guys are cool.
The thing about Varys is that we can safely guess what he wants...and it wasn't represented in the show.
What he is likely to want in the books is for Young Griff (Aegon "Blackfyre" Targaryen) to sit on the Iron Throne.
Sinc this character isn't introduced in the books, his game is off by quite a bit IMO.
The chess board is a perfect metaphor. Varys vs. Littlefinger reminds me of Karpov vs. Kasparov. Each a genius, one with a direct approach to his goal, one slowly bringing all his pieces in the right position and forcing the opponent into a mistake.
why are their names so similar?
Great work! This vid got my subscription.
I'm amazed I stumbled upon this ancient post - if only there were more posts of this quality. The background music especially was outstanding
Beilish is the most brilliant in the series
Except that he revealed too much to Sansa.
"Varys forms partnerships"
You talking about the man who cuts children's tongues and kills them when they grow up too much for his tasks.
His opponent at least creates jobs.
I love these conversations.
I haven't watched any videos before but I already love your into 😂
I think in the books Varys is a Blackfyre (through his mother) (why else burn his parts--there is power in a King's blood) and the plan with Illyrio was set up to get rid of Viserys. Viserys was totally doomed to fatally annoy the Dothraki--no prophecy needed to know that. I am not sure whether or not they were getting rid of Dany, or just preserving her for when Aegon was ready to marry his "aunt" (Aegon also being a Blackfyre)--I err toward preserving, since they gave her the dragon eggs.
Thing about the throne game though..... No matter how good you are at the game, it does not make you a king. Ego is essential part of the king as well as ability make friends.
Good show, only just found you guys and love it.
I love the little recap of what they've done and where they came from. Bold of you to assume I don't already know their entire life story and everyone elses in the show for that matter.
Top got players in (random order):
-littlefinger
-Margaery
-Varys
-Tywin
-Tyrion
Tyrion lol...
Bron best player confirmed
cersei overtime got better than margaery , outsmarted her and doomed her and her family
Little fingers legacy got ruined by over confidence and underestimation in season 7. That and unfortunately gaining the attention of Bran Stark.
Great breakdown
Thank you for this brilliant video! Littlefinger is by far my favourite character. And I feel like he was the greatest player, but he became too greedy, which ultimately led to his demise. Varys feels like he's always reacting to something Littlefinger orchestrated. Varys has a plan, but it fails constantly, due to Littlefinger playing a better game.
But hey, Varys is still alive, so I guess that makes him the better player in the long run?
I think you are discrediting LF, by saying he was lucky with Lysa. We don't know exactly how she came to fall for him (I don't think it was for his looks or strength, otherwise she would be head over heels for someone like Rhaygar or the Starks.). Perhaps he had game (I'm talking about proper game), when he was a kid. If he was some emo, withdrawn, quiet kid, fat and liked reading books, who wasn't brash and going around kissing people, Lysa probably wouldn't have fallen for him. Maybe he played to Lysa's obvious feeling of inferiority to Catelyn, so he chased Cate to get Lysa jealous (as all man should know, women want what another woman has).
Since Petyr Baelish isn't the definition of an Alpha male or the image of being born gifted or with status, proves he wasn't 'lucky'. He would've been lucky with Lysa, if he had actual physical merits that were appealing in Westeros.
Also isn't Littlifinger smart and good with money, Lysa only gave him a job (Master of coin), Littlefinger had to live up to the role. Especially against Jon Arryn, who could not be fooled as easily as Lysa or Ned.
TooInaproriate Lysa fell for him because she slept with him one night when he was drunk off his preteen hind end, and Littlefinger was to smashed to know it was her and not Catelyn. Plus Lysa is just plain insane in the dang membrane no one knows why she was infatuated with Petyr other then maybe he was the first to pay attention to her and she twisted into the idea that he loved her
She fell for him before sleeping (raping) him, I don't think you can fall for someone while and after you sleep with him, unless he's gifted or talented, in which case, bonus points for Baelish!
As you said no-one knows why she was infatuated with him, but that doesn't discredit that Littlfinger did something or was something that resulted in her being infatuated. It can be hypothesised, If Petyr was a different person as a boy (shy and withdrawn, didn't like girls e.t.c), he wouldn't have received the same reception from Lysa.
Since Petyr Baelish isn't the definition of an Alpha male or the image of being born gifted or status, proves he wasn't 'lucky'. He would've been lucky with Lysa, if he had actual physical merits that were appealing in Westeros.
I mean I know why i like the girls i like
Cause they are hot, got bewbs/dat ass or hell. they got a nice personality/funny or some shit.
Lysa definitely became insane with time, but Littlefinger definitely had or did something that made her like him, cause as i said, he was not born with the assets that Rhaegar, Jamie or the Starks have. Baelish isn't born with genetic gifts, so he wasn't 'lucky'.
You can make someone like you by torturing them mentally and that's not hard, neither impossible to happen randomly with someone who knows you specially if you're a FILTHY manipulator/sociopath
Then it wasn't Luck, but skill that allowed Baelish to be have Lysa's affections, through mental torture or manipulation.
I hope he manipulates every single feudal barbarian to their death. Where they belong. LF is the only person of that timeline who resembles the normality of our world. Everyone else is a reminder of how pathetic humanity was back in the middle ages.
This video helped me understand so much.
This channel is so fucking good. So underrated
I think Little Finger respected Ned in his own way, a man who is completely his opposite,
doesn't mean he wouldn't step on the throat of anyone in his way.
Little finger overestimates his manipulation ability thinking Sansa would turn on arya that easily
The legend324 no the show runners were just incompetent and didn’t understand his character
@@tuckerjerbs but it took bran the all seeing stark to reveal Peter's true motives. Little finger is a character I like and I too didn't like his death
Ye, but thats just bad writing. The whole season was just a bunch of things littlefinger wouldnt have done or would have done much better
Dudes!! Covering Dagobah? Westros?!? Great job guy, keep up the great work! Awesome channel!
Great video!
I agree with the blue dude. I was already thinking about their upbringings before they got to the chat at the end and I was thinking about the luck Littlefinger was blessed with.
I would say Varys has one flexible plan and adjusts his pieces/variables to achieve and optimize the results, where as Peter has one stagnant objective and will do whatever in order to succeed.
This sounds like a conversation between Karl the gas station guy and Chris from family guy, and I love every second of it ❤️
This is why we need to wait for Winds of Winter to judge clearly which one of these two actually got what they wanted
This is like First Take for nerds w/ attention spans.
still baffles me how one mind could come up with and write such great material
It's fun the fact that, given the great power to manipulate others that both Littlefinger and Varys share, it might seem like it'd have been pretty easy for either of them to arrange the assassination of the other one. However, they choose to play the game of trying to outwit each other. My two favourite characters, thanks a lot for this video guys!
This was a very interesting discussion.
People call Petyr Baelish "Littlefinger", whereas people don't often call Varys as "The Spider" ... Now that's a misconception.
I've often wondered that...
They call Petyr Littlefinger to his face they seldom call Vary's The Spider to his, but they always call him the eunuch I've often wondered if he started that himself so high borns wouldn't fear him cause he can have no children, inherit no land, and thus never be a powerful Lord.
I have the feeling that season 7 will be the downfall of Littlefinger, and if anyone is going to bring him down, it'll be Sansa because she's suffered the most from his actions.
I also think that Sansa is now a powerful player in the game because no one expects her to be so strong. Not to mention the amazing fact that she survived longer than Margaery - a character that was always as smart and conniving as Cersei herself. It's shocking that Margaery died whilst Sansa survives.
I'm becoming pro Sansa by the day. I hope she gets revenge on both Littlefinger AND Cersei.
But regarding Varys, he's always been a strong player yet he refuses to be apart of the game. He simply wants to survive but is not interested in the game itself. That is why he is now with Dany - he knows that she can be a great ruler, and he knows that his life is safe with her, and not in danger.
fuck sansa
i will leave at that
toni fgi lol
Jacktbx6 I still like Varys though for some reason lol.
I disagree with the statement of Varys refusing to be a player in the game. If there is anyone in GoT capable of seeing through Varys and Littlefingers web of lies. It's a red priestess. More specifically thee red priestess, Kinvara. Whom clearly sees right through him. Evidently so after she subtly threatens him stating "We serve the same queen. If you are her true friend, you have nothing to fear from me"
Her mocking smile and his body language in that scene, says it all.
Jak Skellington He doesn't like any red priestesses due to his past with magic. It has nothing to do with him playing the game.
You guys are the best, really valid and interesting discussion!!!!!
Team Varys
Well, I still think Varys' motives were muddied in the show by leaving out the Blackfyre subplot. In the books its pretty clear he has some connection to them, and is merely using Dany to position Young Griff.
I'm not even sure if Young Griff is actually the dragon's blood
I love watching Varys' story unfold- he has been such an intriguing character to me since the show began (I haven't read the books yet!).
That pause at the end about Tywin :-) Nice effect.
Really enjoy these videos but for some reason all the nerd soup videos are so quiet I can't hear them on my phone at full blast. Can we get a little better audio? Am I the only one experiencing this?
Bran it totally going to win the GoT. Bran has been warging Varys this entire time, and Varys (aka Bran) will no doubt win the GoT by backstabbing Daenerys once she takes the iron throne with John Snow. Then Bran comes down from beyond the wall to sit on top of the iron throne and mind fuck everybody.
lol that would be one heck of a finish
LOLOL👸
Max Harley Bran warged into him when he heard the voice in the flames! That voice was brans voice
Yes
Max Harley then Bran rips off his face and turns out to be Jacquen the entire time, before everyone else follows. Then it ends at a tavern, Bronn is taking a sip of his ale, saying "And that's how I met your mother" Boom, done.