The Problems with Imaginarium Theater with @Zajef77
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- Giving some feedback on potential issues and ideas to improve it. Thanks Zajef for hanging out on stream! / jamiekb9v
Timestamps:
0:00 lack of geo characters built
1:50 lack of hydro 4 stars
3:27 boons not being impactful
3:57 they could make characters cooler
7:02 rougelikes usuallly get us stronger, this feels weaker
8:00 luckily hoyo are looking into improvements!
9:02 genshin characters rely on synergies and feel wierd solo
11:32 make the boon buffs stronger to make characters feel different and interesting
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#imaginariumtheater #genshinimpact #hoyocreators - เกม
look forward to new nilou and navia videos for next patches rerun!!! i'm excited to do a bunch of testing
and since hoyo have addressed it i'm looking forward to seeing how the gamemode improves in the future! although we have no idea whether they will do small or big changes, or what things they are happy leaving 🤔
I cant wait to see how Hoyoverse takes the feedback on Imaginarium Theater to make Simulated Universe better.
lmao
Stop... The truth is too painful...
Too real
ICANT frfr
More SU content is a plus for me. Love em to death.
I think allowing for 2 or 3 party teams would solve two big issues.
First, it would make it more possible to complete a run with less than the required characters, and instead of saying “no you can’t play” if you don’t have enough, it can just ask “are you sure you want to enter with less than 18 characters?”, and you can accept.
Second, people who hate running janky teams would be able to save characters in round they don’t need 4, in order to use them when it does make sense.
I think letting you do a stage with less than 4 characters is a must. You shouldn't run into situations where you put Faruzan or Gorou as the filler 4th slot in your team because you prioritize saving other characters only to get Wanderer/Xiao/Noelle/Itto added to the roster after you ran out of uses for Faruzan or Gorou because they were the least valuable characters up until that point.
@@joaorodrigues6403Man, if they ever put Geo AND Anemo as two of the elements, that’s gonna be one hell of a Theater rotation…
True, thats literally the only complaint i have. 2-3 man teams is a must.
-at this point im just convinced most of the community will just never be happy with anything genshin does.
For me, abyss is a stupid gamemode
And I.T. is atleast kinda fun to play
I hope we get like buff to leylines so we can lvl up more teams. Like the leyline overflow
What annoys me the most about the lackluster buffs... They've done so many cool things in the past in various events like, Removing cooldowns, making skills endless, (like wanderer flying without end) Ridiculous Buffs like +400 Plunge DMG. Like just take any abyss buff and just tuned it up SUPER HIGH or something.
It would be awesome to see someone like Qiqi Doing Insane damage or Baizhu with +2000 Dendro Bonus. Idk man So much potential just goes to waste. This was a great discussion btw.
An Imaginarium Theater focusing on Shatter, Superconduct and Crystalize. Make it happen Hoyoverse, im ready.
Silence, Satan!
Finally, I can unveil my EM navia
@@el7284 That compliment goes to the designers of the game mode. You know it will be inevitable I'm just making awareness so you are prepared on the day of reckoning.
@@eherden2169 *sputters incoherently
They'll give us a Geo, Anemo, Dendro Imaginarium Theater first.
Imaginarium Theater is what happens when the dev team spends the last 4 years making mini games. It's upsetting seeing the dev team fail this hard...
well said, this new mode feels more like a event rather then permanent game mode tbh. I cant imagine that they failed YET AGAIN , didn't they learned anything from TCG, and how community sees tcg, fking disappointment.
And the worst part is that they double the time of abyss but didn't double the rewards in it, rather they shifted the remaining rewards into this new mode and call it a day, so that they can say- LOOK PLAYERS/COMMUNITY WE INCREASED THE ABYSS REWARD, fking joke, IT FEELS MORE LIKE WHAT WE SAY shrinkinflation of food/pakages n whatnot,
GIVE US THE ORIGINAL TIMMING N REWARDS OF ABYSS AND FIX YOUR NEW MODE, OTHERWISE, THIS MODE WILL BE BECOME OF WHAT tcg, IS TODAY
@@BlankSama The game mode feels like an event BECAUSE it was an event, same exact patch too back in Sumeru I bet.
@@BlankSama At this point is deserved, i hope hoyo never give their playerbase anything they wan't, because they still will play the game regardless, the playerbase just doesn't care enough to stop playing the game, and the devs knows it.
@@BlankSamaThey have the analytics and we don't. Do people really don't care about TCG? They even made some tournaments with real money prizes, if I'm not mistaken.
Maybe metaplayers don't care about TCG. But what makes someone think metaplayers aren't the minority?
Just another reminder that this isnt a Honkai game
I'm glad they said they'll improve it but the fact it even got released in the state it's in is insane. Either the devs just do not understand what makes genshins combat system so unique and appealing and thats why they messed up. Or they just wanted to make a mode that incentivizes having/ pulling lots of characters and prioritized that over any concerns of it being actually fun to play and figured most players would be too casual to notice its flaws so they could get away with it...
I cant even say which is worse lol
imo the problem with IT is that it's trying to be simulated universe and abyss at the same time and thus fails to do either well. In HSR, sim universe isn't part of the MOC/PF/AS cycle of "challenge mode" timed content. It's just repeatable sandbox endgame where you can either play a lot or do one optimized speed run a week and then has optional hard modes that don't have cyclic rewards tied to them so players who don't love combat can ignore that and not miss much.
IT trying to be a roguelike and a timed challenge at the same time means it has to be under-tuned, safe, and boring in order to be clearable for enough of the playerbase with trial units and oppressive restrictions.
Genshin didn't need another timed 'challenge mode' to alternate with abyss, we just needed a roguelike sandbox with crazy and creative buffs and mechanics for people who want to play the game more.
Agreed. Timed game modes are the "unfun" kind of challenge, similar to that one food delivery event during the first year this game came out where stepping on a puddle causes you to start over.
I can't articulate what makes certain challenges and stressors the kind that makes you want to queue up for another round. I would guess that it's the kind that makes you feel like you can max out your experience and fun, or the kind that allows you to build towards something. Timed challenges limits the amount of experience you can have by placing a cap on it.
Exactly, let us choose an element and get crazy buffs like Xianyun ult. That would make it feel fun to replay, right now it’s just boring and unsatisfying
Something they could do to improve difficulty is to add banes. Players can select buffs fo give to enemies, letting players tailor the difficulty to their liking
It's kind of clear by now that Genshin is only interested in selling waifu's rather than actually providing an innovative gaming experience. Since we're playing scuffed teams, let us do things we can't in other gameplay. Turn off cool downs for charged bow attacks, 2x attack speed on great swords, add elemental procs to normal attacks. Literally zero creativity.
If theater actually didn't limit your team to be 4 chars, but instead allowed to run 2 chars for example with a tradeoff of using 2 chars slots to equip some cracked ass Boon to make even the weakest char deal a billion dmg it would be infinitely more interesting.
Genshin does have some day 1 mechanics like energy restoration per particle increasing with less chars for example. They should just double down on that for more interesting stuff.
I can guarantee you that 2 chars thing won't happen. This mode is created to encourage players to pull more different characters. There is absolutely no other purpose behind it lmao.
@@piloswinne They could just add more floors requiring more chars. Or adding side 1 or side 2, making the players choose between a boon or recovering a char they used some 4 floors ago
They have space for a lot of things. This thought of "they wouldn't do it" just doesn't work because they have never done anything in genshin so they can introduce anything (coherent) and players will end up enjoying
wtf why would you get a buff for using fewer characters when saving vigor would already be an extremely strong benefit
@@mia_2043 because the core mechanic of vigor consumption, 4 chars requirement and boons should be revised.
If boons were be just as strong as SU, that way getting boons would mean getting less chars, so the players would need to choose between having some boons and 4 chars to use them OR a lot of boons, but less chars to use on the team
if for example, the player could only equip at most 6 boons, but using one less char allowed them to equip 2 more then it's up to the player decide which is better
maybe even making boons expire could be a good idea if done correctly
@@piloswinne nah the running lower characters can make sense. Say you have 4 DPS characters that you HAVE to use, which is fine now but then when the harder stages you only have your supports which can ruin your run.
Being able to bench someone and not use a charge would allow you to actually plan around some of the RNG. You have 3 Dendro characters with 1 electro and no hydro. Well now you cant save your dendro characters charges etc
They had multiple different events where we could choose to have an aura following us (I remember both Anemo and Hydro auras being a thing), and Abyss eventually has off-field Phys and Pyro applications after certain circumstances as the "bloom", so they *_could_* easily fix the lack of off-field characters problem if they wanted... removing the randomness from energy refreshes and straight out giving us the choice to give, say, Bennett or someone else from the main cast 4 uses instead of 2 would be huge for team building. If they also allowed us to use teams of 3 instead of 4 and made the mode harder... I would actually like it.
I hate being forced to build characters I will never use outside of the mode. Just give me labyrinth warriors and make it harder please.
What do you mean, though. Do you explore overworld with your kazuha national team or something? (No judging, but just to understand your point).
I'd say Abyss "forces" to build characters you won't use beside abyss as well, if you think about it. The in game events aren't as hard as well, and overworld is fine to use any team (I'm currently using a double dps team when doing Leylines with Alhaitham and Sethos just to farm Friendship, for example. And it's fine).
Abyss is actually fun though, IT’s greatest sin imo is that it’s just not fun
@@TheMoonestOneno people are vertical investing, like u could reliably clear every abyss using less than 12 builts characters in your account if u really hated horizontal investing
@@TheMoonestOne Thing is, I like abyss, and I like clearing it over and over and over with different teams. Unlike IT where you can't even chose your own team, and forced to play some random non-synergistic and unfun combination lmao
Also, I only build characters I like for abyss. I only ever pulled 5* that I like. I didn't pull for Neuvilette for example, no matter how strong he is. I also built some 4* support, which I don't mind since they strengthen the characters that I like and will always be played whenever I bring those characters to domains outside of abyss.
@@theianeia lthey give you characters to use and your friends Neuv can be used. I dont have him easier because he wasnt fun to play
You played the game for Abyss which is fine, I did too but I have a wide variety of characters built because those characters have their own teams
Xiao over the years, I had Zhongli, Albedo, Bennet, Yelan, Furina, Faruzan, Cloud Retainer. Who helped with my Wanderer team
Taser which morphed into hyperbloom, Sucrose, XQ, Beidou, Mona
Hu tao also had XQ and the same characters as Xiao
Freeze already had mona which Ayaka filled in with Shenhe to be her support
Then the national with Xianling and Chongyun which then got Raiden, Sara, Kazuha variants
Ayato which replaced Childe in that vape team for me which now had Yunjin
Then Sumeru, Nahida, Traveller, Kuki, Yao Yao, Dehya for defense. I got Nilou too because why not. Tighnari was on standard banner so I went for her
Playing abyss made me create multiple teams because I enjoyed playing different styles.
Are they all levelled up to 90 with 9/9/9 talents? no. Some are 70 or 80 with a mixture of talents but they are all usable with one of the built dps characters.
PLus I pull for constellations and weapons(sometimes) so the older 4 stars are mostly c6
I would have loved Mystic Onmyou Chamber becoming an endgame mode. It was all there, the story fit to make it endgame, team plus back up characters make teambuilding intresting, diffrent labyrinths and enemy waves would make it interesting, make it hard to survive instead of a clear time race etc.... And then they release something as pointless as this, it's sad
I have my doubts that significant changes will be rolled out for the Imaginarium Theater and it hurts to be optimistic so imma remain cautiously pessimistic
1- Reduce the amount of characters required to enter.
2- Make it 4 elements restriction instead of 3.
3- Let us CHOOSE which characters we get after every room.
4- Give more currency rewards and more powerful blessings.
5- Buff the HELL out of the enemies, so the gamemode gets harder and the blessings become more relevant. I'm talking "floor 12 on steroids" levels of buffs.
6- More ways to restore vigor of characters.
*TLDR:* Just make it like the Simulated Universe already, godammit!
All great ideas
I just wanna play Gold and Gears in Genshin pls
they didn't add a game mode with new mechanics, they simply added restrictions. Talk about lazy, we waited 4 years for restrictions. Holy fuk
Making imaginarium theater coop would make it infinitely better imo.
Making any sort of real (optional) coop content for genshin would be amazing but its been 4 years already.
Half of the buffs are the usual "do something to release a Physical AoE attack every 6 seconds" that basically every Abyss already has.
And I never liked those. I want to do damage with my characters and reactions, not with a fixed damage proc I have little control over.
I also feel like the Mystery Caches RNG is very bad (I did around 1 hour resetting to get the achievement that requires 8)
And actually, the run I had access to it allowed as much characters as if I had selected characters only.
But at the current stage, it's not relevant because they are so few chance you get more than 5/6 by Act 8.
Obviously Goons are in a similar state, but it's already "less worse"
besides all the other bad things with the mode, is there really a point to buffing certain characters' hp / atk / def in the overworld? why did they bother coding that in?
I don’t actually think the buffs need to be big for this mode to work. Most SU buffs are actually really small like “10% crit” or “15% Ult dmg”. The reason they are impactful is because you get like 30 of them in a run and they all scale with each other.
Imaginarium buffs feel like shit because you get, like, 5 of them in a run because you have to spend all of your flowers recruiting new characters.
sure the amount is a factor but there are also many significant buffs just by themselves, not just numbers wise but also new mechanics wise as discussed in the video. i suppose every small detail adds up whichever choices they want to make lets wait and see
The part about SU buffs is straight up wrong. There are some basic blessings in each path that are just stat increase but most blessings provide additional mechanics you can build your entire strategy on and it’s those kind of blessings that make the most impact.
SU buffs are actually really solid even at the lower rarities. Like the Hunt and Erudition crit ones. Getting all four nets you around 40% crit rate and damage which is huge. Or the Destruction ones that gives you a mix of damage, res, hp, defense with the focus of having 50% or less hp.
Imagine these buffs in theater with amped up enemies. Buffs would feel strong and fun.
Yeah but all the boons are like hard locked to some niche unit so your team aint ever benefiting from anything even if you get all boons you can have.
My arlecchino surely appreciates this swirl buff.
@@luminous3558 This happens just as often in SU also where you get follow-up blessings for a non-follow-up team or DoT blessings for a non-DoT team.
When you get 30 blessings, having 1-2 of them be duds doesn't matter, but when you only get 5, having 1-2 of them be duds is a big deal.
An easy fix for the boons would be to make them do things that the elements in question want already.
So for a bloom theater you just make nilou's passive into a boon.
For Anemo stuff you give people c6 faruzan burst after jumping through a few hoops.
If we can't guarantee the important characters that carry the elements synergies then give us those synergies.
That way the mode can have difficult enemies because you no longer might not have access to good stuff.
Good video. twas a nice discussion listening between you and zajef.
1. They should remove the 2 Vigor limit. Make it so that you can acquire characters through cards only.
2. Then make it rougelike, where the enemies get wayy harder similar to the boss combat platinum star event we had recently.
3. Allow for cards after each chamber be like balatro, allowing you to choose different paths and improving different aspects of reactions and cooldowns. Eg: When burning is triggered, Melt multiplier x 2/4/6. When character uses Elemental skill, Ultimate cooldown -2/3/5 sec. When Elemental skill is used, Elemental skill reset chance 50/75/100 %.
4. Add different rarities to card buffs such as common, rare, legendary, glass etc.
5. Reduce required number of characters to play.
6. Lastly make the mode infinite, Rewards will only be given till you get 8 stars, but you can challenge the bosses who get harder and harder until your buffs and damage cant keep up anymore.
The me of the future already gave up on Hydro Imaginarium Theater. I don't want to be forced to get a 5 star just to get access to this excuse of an endgame.
I hope they fix it to allow 2 or 3 characters teams or even solo
That would benefit the f2p players who prioritize vertical investment
I know thats not the place but I had a blast with last Ilussusive realm in wuwa. Its only second iteration but the improvement is real. I cant wait for Changli to try her there.
Regrading the theater I want option to play it with a friend. he selects two units. I select two units. We can share unit pool. If the mode is not to test the strength of your chars let it at least be fun.
@@ixirion I’ve been saving for changli too!
Jhinsi in wuwa tempted me to pull her
Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I feel like the mere existence of this gamemode makes the quality of a theoretical Labyrinth Warriors return more questionable...
The devs have their preferences in terms of design, and I think LW was lightning in a bottle that won't get the love it deserves. We've already seen how Hoyo takes older events and gives them controversial changes over time (Windtrace being turned into a weird Dead-by-Daylight clone, Theatre Mechanicus getting so many weird alterations, etc).
It's a shame, because if LW got some expansions and adjustments, it would probably be the pinnacle of Genshin's mechanics and design. The format of that event fits the game's genre way too well to be simply dropped. And a chance to preview character constellations??? Literally rerun money generator, come on.
2:41 I completely agree. I started Genshin in 2.5 2nd half, and my first 36* came in 3.0 second half, and I only had 11 total units built. I wouldn’t have qualified for IT under the restrictions given with an equivalent account today.
I play this turn-based gacha called Reverse 1999, and that also recently introduced a roguelite gamemode.
In that, apart from actually being hard on higher difficulties, the different buffs you can find actually have lots of potential to synergize with each other and with your characters, change how you approach fights, and have a huge impact on the strength of your team.
One thing they did that I wish Genshin would do, is that on higher difficulties, there's a debuff on your healing. On the highest one, it's reduced by 50%, which in Genshin (with something like a 70% reduction at least) would allow them to make difficult non-timed encounters that don't rely on 1-shotting you. Cause otherwise, the amount of healing in this game is just way too much, and you can get back to full in 1-2 seconds at pretty much any time. Same applies to shields tbh. Encounters there have a 99 turn limit, so enemies also usually have an effect that makes them gain 5% extra dmg per turn, to counteract playing it too slowly and safely, and to at least slightly push back against some of the buffs you can get that make your characters stronger over time.
Runs are also much longer, I think around 15-20 encounters, for a total of 50 minutes on higher difficulties.
And it restricts the total amount of characters you can bring to 8 (6 on higher difficulty), with a full team also being 4, and they gain levels as you go through the run. And lower rarity characters start out and initially gain them faster, so a common strategy on the highest difficulty is to put two low-rarity characters in your team, and then later swap them out with your two backup-units that are higher rarity.
Genuinely wish Genshin implemented most of those things in some way. Would honestly be even better in a game mode more similar to Labyrinth Warriors (surely they will bring this back eventually (copium))
This was such an annoying game mode. It was a chore, like the most of the things in this game, for the 95% of the time and the other 5% I was able play with meaningfull teams and how sad it is that two random people on the internet can come up with much more interesting ideas than people who's job is to make a videogame. Thats just sad, this game was magical when I started, now Im just waiting for the last few days of the welkin moon I bought months ago so I can uninstall it.
This might be a hot take but while I think Imaginarium isn't great I think it has potential. I like that it's forcing me to build 4 stars I never bothered to before. One thing I would like though is if it removed some of the randomness and allowed you to plan your teams more.
100% thats why I make sure to give some improvement ideas and suggestions and hearting a bunch of other commentor ideas in my previous video ☝️ it's good that hoyo see those too rather than just only negativity. i'm looking forward to seeing how they improve it
Same feelings 💘
I think this 4 star argument is very binary though. I absolutely hate it and it's only an option for years and years old accounts stacked with materials. I am 6month old and there is no shot I want to level or even build any of those 4 stars I will absolutely never use. It feels I am forced to waste materials, which I usually use for new 5 stars coming out or fleshing out my actual core. It's just an arbitrary account check, there is no gameplay like in the actual abyss. I am stuck with 36 stars every 4 weeks now (which is very bad) and medium theatre, so my primogem gain is exactly the same as before, but the fun part of playing genshin (abyss) is now halved in reset. Def, from every angle for my position just a big fat L all around and I really tried to make something out of this.
@@dshearwf Well hence it's endgame content. Genshin is almost 4 years old and now you finally have to build more than 8 characters. I understand your frustration but veterans like me have the opposite problem where I have 30 million mora and 2000 purple books (no BP) and finally something to spend it on. The mode needs work but I find having to build more characters generally a good thing.
@@willpickering5829 I'm literally a day one player logging in everyday to spend my resin and only build one character per 2 versions at most, and I don't have this abundance of materials. Not everyone is like you. Building a char from the ground up is super resin expensive especially the artifact farming.
for me if they do like if you use the intended mechanic in this case overload it lowers the CD of the team that way even with only on fields character you can just spam switch and skills to continue to apply elements to keep doing the intended reaction and maybe turn off the artefact for the character and make strong boons that replace artifact stats instead that way you only need to level up the character to be used on the gamemode
Zhongli is also my only geo characters build. I still have Lumine level 80/90 but with a dendro build.
For hydro, it is true but I have Mona and Xingqui C6. I have many hydro limited 5 stars too.
Really believe the Devs didn't even actually play their own game (genshin). Another example is the Artifact Preset. Players requested for it for soooo long. And when the preset is available, it is not even what we are expecting it to be.
Zajef didn't stream here, right? I don't remember this
@@viva862 he wasn’t streaming
I am danger I don't have any limited 5 character geo. If they have geo only. Sadge mean I cannot clear? Or I should pull zhongli my first 5 character limited or skip and go pyro archon instead on my save primo?
There're always two more elements for IT and there's traveller also in case you need some specific one. I'd save for pyro archon because I don't think sacrificing a character for some primos is worth it
high investment Noelle can compete with other 5 star geo teams.
It’s not gonna be just geo, they’ll pair it with some other more popular elements. You think they don’t know people straight up skip everything geo-related?
surely from the feedback discussion, the dev wont do a miniscule improvement and called it a day... right??
3yo f2p player only have zhongli built as geo, was gonna build noelle after furina but no c6 gorou stopped me
Me too. Zhongli is the only geo worth building tbh.
@@alatus_knightNah, that would be navia. Zhongli is only worth building if you are a potato with no hands.
Damn that's impressive only 3 years old and already playing Genshin
3yo mid spender with Noelle, Gorou, Yunjin, Ningguang, Zhongli, Albedo, Itto & Navia all fully raised & built.
@@legendnbg97Navia is mid at best, I might as well build other damage dealers who do more than her or save for an actual strong geo damage dealer. Zhongli is actually has a lot of uses and you can put him as a generic 4th slot.
Mind you, I’m not using Zhongli and capable to clear anything without a healer or shielder. He’s simply way more valuable than any other geo in the roster, it’s ridiculous.
2:48 it really is ! I full stared the theater with only the trial characters and a character from an in-game friend so I didn't use any character that I built myself (I still had to pick my characters because you need teams of 4 but I didn't swap to them)
bit of a tangent but bear with me. where zzz failed with its exploration aspect is the tv system. THIS feels exactly like that. you need to play along with your games main aspect. utilize the 3D environment of your world (for zzz and for GI. i think the tv system can work as an interface for puzzles or a map, meanwhile genshin ALREADY did a roguelike with labyrinth warriors. i really dont know why they didnt just reimplement that T.T
right now, there is no consequence to using boons, and you can throw whatever unit you have so longas you built them, which leads to another problem in that its a much more restrictive dmg check gamemode
Just give me SU Genshin edition. Don’t even need to change it, just port it straight over.
The very first point in this video highlights my exact fear for IT, which is I don't have any DPS Geo character. I don't have Navia, Itto or even Chiori. And while I do have Zhongli, Albedo, Ningguang and Noelle, I wouldn't consider them to be strong enough. I mean there will be 2 more elements but my Geo characters are not well built.
I just do not understand how, after all the feedback and complaints over the years, by comparison to their own other game in Star Rail, who is in charge and thought this game mode would address any of those issues and be well received? Whoever is making decisions on what gets put into the game needs to be replaced or demoted or something because it's baffling at this point. They effectively made Spiral Abyss again, another time trial in a big circular room where you can get blessings that don't do much different but the enemies are all weaker, you need a million characters built and it's random so you can't even play the game properly and use the reaction system or synergies between characters.
Who is this for? It doesn't make sense even on paper. Whoever came up with it, genuinely, do not listen to them ever again. I just do not understand how Genshin keeps fumbling so spectacularly when it's been so clear the things people want and modes that are missing.
Why would you not just make a mode with no time limit that puts you up against beefed up bosses that you earn rewards from by meeting certain conditions that are normally not a thing? Restrict types and then be like "overhealing causes your characters to pulse a damage aura for the value over the cap" or something so you need to use these elements, plus healers with a lot of healing or whatever, just anything that's actually different from Abyss or overworked. Somehow this is in the middle, too easy but hard because you need half the entire roster built to play it and the teams are random nonsense.
I think if they want to improve the theater, they should do in in 1 single update
Make imaginarium theater have similar system like Simulated Universe like if you put all DoT team you can use nihility path and deal a lot of Dmg from DoT. Change the Boons effect for specific element set up.
just did my first ever IT run as an F2P player that has been AR60 for over a year and has focused on both decent vertical and decent horizontal investment. been 36 starring abyss regularly for ider how long atp
the mode isnt hard at all, but i can see how RNG could fuck you up by not giving synergistic characters. still, i got all my selected characters by act 6 and managed to clear it first try so idk. the elemental restrictions are not going to be great though, depending on what combinations they pick and what trial characters they give out. we could talk about hypothetical combinations that would suck but thats not really an issue if those hypothetical combinations are never actually implemented.
i get it could be frustrating for newer players or players who didnt do any horizontal investment. for the former case, its an endgame mode. no newer player is 36 starring abyss either. and for the latter case, what were you investing in all this time?? 😭
anyways, i like this mode more than abyss cuz its less frustrating once you get a large number of characters to decent investment, which is easier than the amount of investment abyss requires. remember that abyss doesnt always just require 8 characters. very often the same 8 characters cannot clear very single abyss. not to mention, these characters *need* to be more invested in order to 36*.
in the end, just treat this mode as a recurring event. you only have to do this once a month anyway zzz. its no illusive realm, but free primos are free primos
what i cant believe most is that this is the same developer that made elysian realm, simulated universe(and divergent universe which is basically a better version of su), and now the newest one hollow zero. granted that it's a different dev team but still how do you have so much baseline to work with and came out with absolutely nothing is baffling to me. like they could just easily make another version of any game mode i mention above and it would've been better than what we got currently
that's the point, they deliberately made GI lack something,
so that you would find those "lack" in other Hoyo games and make you play them,
but WITHOUT stopping playing GI.
bring back 2 week abyss reset. I'm missing out on primos because of this new game mode
You actually aren’t, we’re getting 240 more primogems per month now. When they’re going to buff it to 800, it’s gonna be 400 more - as long as they don’t start powercreeping the HP pools and enemy lineups, making it impossible to get all rewards, but I doubt they’d go that far.
@@vladdyru yes I am. I can 36 star the abyss. But I'm forced to play easy mode on IT because I don't have the roster for it. Maybe you aren't but I am.
If the barrier to play IT is too high, they could expand the roster of opening characters but have weaker trial versions and/or increase mob difficulty. I was able to clear act 8 with trial Clorinde.
Yeah if they ever do geo/cryo/dendro Imaginarium I'm completely cooked haha
I like the idea... but it's SUCH a mess. And if you had SOME way to manage who in your roster comes in early vs late, and you could trade super buffs for character selection, and the battles were more like dungeon crawls, like the story quest dungeons... and there were more than 8 matches, but you could refresh a certain number of character usages as you go.
2:30 i started in 4.2, 36 starred after 2 months with no xingqiu and only 8 characters above lvl 70 so very correct lol
I want raids
Man, building a character took me like 2-4 weeks, there's still more characters that haven't been built, building character in GI is not fun at all and is extremely slow...
Yeah Geo is the one I'm most concerned with... I have Noelle Zhongli and Ningguang, Yunjin built but I dont have ANY of the 5 star Geo sub dps and main dps'es.
Meanwhile, half my account is hydro and Geo. I have Gorou, Yun Jin, Itto, Navia and Chiori built. Funnily enough, I don't own John Lee.
Look at this new game mode. I said look, no you can’t touch cause you haven’t played Genshin to our specifications.
imaginarium theatre is like hoyo dont give themselves consent to plagiarize their own work (SU)
I only had 12 eligible characters and i 36 starrred the last abyss f2p. I had to level 6 chars to level 70 now i am broke on mora and exp books. I got all the imaginarium theater rewards and 8 of them are using random weapons and artifacts and carried by others.
I have 0 geo and cryo level 70 chars. I am cooked if they decided to go geo/cryo
Next reset is Hydro,Cryo and Anemo. GOOD LUCK! hahaha
I built GMC instead of Ning. I'm ready for Geo + Dendro + Cryo IT 🤡
The cards need to be wilder otherwise it's just a worse abyss.
Cards need to have insane effects that increase or decrease stats, change reaction attributes or add new attributes.
For example, a card that says "do more physical dmg" just means you have more options, but if the card reads "Do way less elemental dmg, but do way more phys dmg" means you're now doing a phys damage run. Or, idk, crystallize doesn't give shields anymore, instead they explode and deal dmg. Or overloads now deal electro dmg.
Silly stuff like that but it'll be fun because it changes the way we play the game. Even better if you're forced to take those weird cards every room.
Two options to fix this god-aweful mode
1) Make it an actual roguelike instead of abyss floor 9 with annoying restrictions. Make boons way stronger, add ground effects, buffs that revamp reactions or even characters entirely, add skill trees, go wild. Yanfei but every charged attack triggers her burst? Sure. Klee but her normal attacks are transformed into her skill? Why not. Furina with 12 pets? Hell yeah. Arlecchino with permanent 140% Bond of Life? Sign me up. Nilou with 2x bigger bloom radius? Sounds good. Theater is obviously not meant to be difficult - it can't be, since it's way too restrictive - so at least let us have fun.
2) Make it more strategic. Keep vigor (hell, reduce it to 1 if you want), but let people know what they're fighting from the start and let them pick their teams from the entire pool. Remember 2-sided abyss, or the 3-sided abyss event? Well here's 4, 5 or even 6-sided abyss. But with easier fights, so it remains realistic.
A few more ideas (well the first one is a must, not an idea)
- Minimum level 70 can piss off, we've always been able to enter all content at level 1.
- Add one more element
- Increase the pool of special invitations
- Increase the number of borrowed friend characters to 2 or 3 (you can keep the 15 use max, or even reduce it so it's not just 3 whales lending their C6R5s to the entire community)
- Let people borrow starter characters from their friends
- Make it actually fun instead of a windtrace-level chore.
Labyrinth warriors (2.2) or any Misty dungeons are the perfect ENDGAME for Genshin.
It's like a small version of SU with no loading screens. They just need a few improvements and balance.
Dude, you can even add COOP in this, and turn them into mini-raids.
DUDE, you can add the Perilous Trail and the f... Imaginarium Theater levels into this... Perfect.
BUT...
- The Very first Theater Mechanicus (1.3) was amazing.
I can see an improved version of this as another EndGame.
No s... cards... only your brain, your characters and the little towers.
- The Legend of Vagabond Sword (1.6)
This is THE BEST... and was amazing in Coop.
Just give me a rogue-like version of that... like 3 bosses in a row with the same party members (Public matches or Friends).
For sanity, you don't need to beat all the bosses to collect the rewards.
A point system, like in Coop events will do. Very cool EndGame to be honest.
- Hyakunin Ikki (2.1)
I'm not a big fan of this one, but it's way better than the Imaginarium Theater.
Instead of random buffs and random teams, you can use this system inside the Imaginarium Theater.
Maybe less teams with more characters (like 4 rounds x 4 characters).
Navia is my only build Geo character.
Well, you have a good reason to get a geo support for her.
@@Camelia437 I wanted to get Chiori, but I saw that she was C1 bait and it pissed me off so I skipped her.
@@oscara8454wise man
She's still like the best option either way, it's just like that to make her main purpose as a itto support, with Noelle and navia benefitting, just not as much, geo MC is also a good choice weirdly@@oscara8454
I really enjoy the IT all the aesthetics, lore hints and everything, but it does seems like an idea rather than an execution well made. The best thing is probably that they are willing to work in a new game mode, that can be custom, flexible, somewhat coop and honestly, fun. Thats the good part, because the execution seems flawed tho. And i dont mean like "oh you need to have only X element characters", i mean like the buffs are somewhat restrictive even if you have the chars, not much impactful in the end, and sometimes the RNG really doesnt help you.
I genuinely think they had a very good idea and are in the right way, at least, but it does look like they will need more time to make it better, tho.
Zhongli is still the CEO of GEO🗿
His company isn't turning profits
It's terrible how bad Genshin's characters and teams are. Star Rail you can pick your team style, break, follow up, dot etc. and if your character follows that niche it can work. Genshin has wasted so many opportunities, the last thing they did for Physical was Mika who was a complete flop and worse than Bennet.
Me, the guy that built every single Geo character: 😐
If they do Element of Geo....that will be a problem bec I don't have a lot of Geo Characters that are strong except for Navia
You have Navia so you have every strong geo character.
@@F_Print if you have played the Imaginarium Theater.....you can only probably use the strong characters twice
then its YOUR problem/
Only 12 minutes Sadge
@@uzshanka1676 there was a longer stream on twitch but we had other topics. Still, I remember your comment asking for us to stream IT talk so hopefully you still like it! 👍
Honestly the scuffed teams are the main thing I like about the mode at this point haha, it's the only thing that gives the mode more of its own identity
One point I didn't consider about how I enjoyed Imaginarium Theater:
I'm not a rogue-like player (I played at most games like Slay the Spire) but recently Splatoon released a DLC that is a rogue-like mode. I love splatoon and its DLC is fun, imo. But after I clear the tower with a certain Weapon, I only come back to it with a new Weapon just for completionist reasons. I don't have the urge to play again. And, again, it's a fun mode and everything, but I think I don't like the curve of "getting stronger and stronger". The start is usually slow and at the end it's usually trivial (it's not easy exactly, but if you play well, you can clear stages in less than 10s depending on your buffs).
And one thing that I personally really liked about Imaginarium Theater is how at the whole moment, I have to really think about my resources. And, in my opinion, that's part of why I think it's so fun. My decisions matter for the rest of the run (and I can get lucky and be able to use again characters I normally wouldn't be able, so the mode is unpredictable in that sense). This is a mode that I want to replay more, and I just don't do it because of limited time available (and I blame that on ZZZ xD).
Anyways, seeing you guys rant on the mode made me realize this. The ideas of special reactions seems fun, but the "buffs to get stronger and stronger" I personally couldn't care less. I want my decisions to matter in a bad way as well. Having to think "oh, Kazuha would be great here, but it's so early in the run, and I may need him later" is good game design imo.
Also, I understand the mode is bad for a lot of players because of limited character roster and how boring it is to level up characters. But I'd say that's fixable by expanding the Special Guest list or, even better, by improving the leveling up system.
I agree with the "I want my decisions to matter in a bad way" and that's exactly why I loved the 2.2 event. There where some really good buffs but there was also parts of the map that if you were just running around to the next area without a thought you could come across zones that gave you debuffs or dealt damage. It wasn't much but for a limited time event it really captured what a lot of people were expecting of a roguelike mode and it would have been very reasonable to assume that it would be improved in a mode that's permanent but I guess no
player asked for an endgame mode so they can play their characters, Mihoyo add an endgame mode that restrict what character players can play. this solve nothing
wuwa could never.....
make their roguelike endgame this bad.
i sometimes replay abyss to try out couple teams, but once i finish theatre once a month for primos, there is no way i replay it. the randomness just makes it bad
yeah they could never get rid of the bugs, wuwa its so spahetti coded i thought its italian restaurant.
@@asdfasdf11835 im personally not having any problems tbh. might be a hardware issue on your end, works just fine for me
I actually like that it’s easy and that getting all rewards requires pretty much no effort. Those primogems didn’t come out of nowhere - they were taken from an extra Abyss reset that isn’t there anymore - I’d rather not sweat for something that was essentially taken out of my own pocket.
wait there people that genuinely play this ?
no wonder why genshin end up in this sad state
What imaginarium theatre need to do , is when a charector is 70 , then. They are automatically upgraded to level 90 and with c6 . Automatically.
I don't know why so much hate for imaginarium theatre , it was fun and the arena way better than abyss
First
If Imaginarum Theatre was the original endgame and they tried to add the Abyss, we would hate the Abyss. IM is more like the type of end game I want to play. I was world level 8 for a while before I got a character or weapon over 80. I had to focus on fewer characters once I decided it was time to go past floor 9 in the Abyss. I would have rather kept leveling new characters that I wanted to try.
Unlikely, if IT came first, many people would be happy that they finally gave them enemies that could survive more than 1 rotation… they wouldn’t be thrilled about the generic arenas and minimal enemies but just the fact you had some enemies that could stand up to your builds would be a win
I genuinely think that the main problem people have with IT is that almost no one has ever bothered to build some characters and teams because they are _"suboptimal"._ Synergy is already build in the game. Reactions, Elemental Resonances and support artifacts and weapons.
_What do you do when you are forced to play Amber or Xinyan as a support/quickswap? Or Gorou outside a Geo team?_
The answer I get for questions like these from the community so far is been _"It can't be done."_ When I tell them it can, they tell me _"my teams are shit and I'm coping"_ or that _"I'm brute forcing the gamemode and there is no strategy."_
But there are MANY teambuilding avenues that have not been explored. Double resonances, for starters. Taking advantage of Beidou's/Yae Miko targeting to bypass Overload's ICD. Or Lisa/Amber Overload tech. Throwing Fischl ToM with Chevreuse to build a Physical team. Taking advantage of characters with lower CDs for fast quickswaps.
So far people have just dismiss these points as _"cope"_ and _"not strategy"._ And, let's be honest, _"meta"_ teams are only VapeMelts, Aggravates, Dendro Cores and Hypercarries. Because those are the _only_ teams where you can control all the variables.
*The whole point of the gamemode is to make the best of the variables you can't control*
It may not be for everyone. And thats fine. But people not liking it doen't mean it's bad. And some of us *do* enjoy that.
And most of the proposed "solutions" will just make it either more easy or more like Spiral Abyss.
The problem with making the buff just stronger is that it would _indeed_ make it like Sim Universe. And Sim Universe *_is not endgame._* Also, if you make the buffs either strong enough or reliable enough to carry a team through the game it takes away from the rougelike nature of the game.
A better solution is to save some artifact setups (including the ones you own) that can be shared by all your characters while in IT. That way, they can go hard on randomizing characters, and make it harder, but you always have a way to at least get a good set on your DPS and Support sets on everyone else.
There is much room for improvement. But the game mode is by no means bad in what its trying to do: Be endgame for horizontal investment. But we are just not used to invest in _versatility_ rather than optimization.
There's three problems with this argument.
a) You're forgetting that SU has Swarm Disaster/Gears and Gold. They aren't the same kind of endgame as MoC in HSR, but they can be pretty challenging and completely change how your character teambuilding work. Whether that's something GI wants to go with due to different reward structures is a different argument (Theater is already released, so it is what it is), but it shows that interesting things can be done with the roguelike structure and
b) The argument about "horizontal investment" dismisses the cost-to-benefit ratio. For example, lets say that you are want to improve your Theater performance. What are your targets going to be? Why would you ever select Amber/Xinyan for those purposes? They aren't particularly versatile, they don't blind enable different comps, and you don't even know whether raising those characters will be useful in any particular Theater or not because you don't know the elemental structure of the Theater before that Theater comes out (it's fully possible you might go several patches until those characters are useful, especially with Trial characters potentially filling holes).
Saying that the mode "rewards versatility" is technically true, but it only rewards a specific kind of versatility; in addition to the element selection, it rewards characters that are strong without team support, and very specific role redundancy for more vital roles such as sustain characters. With that in mind, you will *still* just pick the best characters out of that hat to raise. Saying that the mode rewards making the best out of what you got does not change the fact that you, as the player, have control over what characters you would raise or not. So there's no possible way for you to get to the point where you would raise cope characters just to run Theater unless your account was truly barebones or the reward from Theater (whether in terms of fulfillment or actual in-game rewards) were so massive that it would radically change account raising strategy. At most, you might raise maybe 1-2 additional characters per element, and you would select characters that would theoretically be useful.
c) Even setting aside what the mode incentivizes, the reality is that it's just not that fun to teambuild without a cohesive strategy. Part of the reason why Swarm/GnG work in HSR is that, while the teambuilding and challenges are radically different, you can still make teams that obey good, cohesive strategies and get rewarded in a way that's fun to play. Even accomplishing comps that actually all-in on unusual ideas and get rewarded (such as full shield Preservation setups or full Freeze Remembrance perma-stall). You technically can get rewarded for wise investment in IT, but what is the actual reward in terms of actual gameplay? Does it do anything interesting with those setups? You can't tell me that "I get to use Amber" is a reward; you could already do that, and with teams that actually are more cohesive for her.
Ultimately, you just can't balance hugely horizontal investment in a rotating game mode unless it's balanced with a significantly low power floor (and high power is auto-balanced down). There comes a point where it no longer makes sense to expand horizontally from a player's perspective because there's too much unknown information about whether something is going to be useful or not. It's a big reason why "horizontal investment" modes (mentioned HSR, but Arknights IS as another example) usually aren't rotating modes, and why those modes make the balance decisions that they do (where SD/GnG, the blessings are so overwhelming that equipment really does not matter that much for those modes, and in IS, most characters are forced to be E1 at most without extra recruitment steps, plus there's a currency system to prevent you from just spamming 6 stars).
In Genshin there is no reason, resources nor enough time for you to build "sub-optimal" teams, we don't have artifact loud-outs, "good weapons" are not easy to get, and many 4* characters don't even their jobs without constellations
And hoyo makes supports and DPS relying on already existing synergies/meta characters, most pyro units need Bennet to do good damage for example, vape is carried by Xingqiu/Yelan, or Xiangling (always xiangling) being the only good pyro for melt/ reverse vape.
(Edit: English is hard)
In conclusion, if a "random bullshit go" team can clear, my Al'haitham or Arlecchino can solo, and if they can't, any non-optimal team also can't.
@@ancientspark375
a) I'm not forgetting. But they are irrelevant to my argument. My argument was that just buffing the boons in a way that would make the fact that you get random teammates irrelevant. *Building teams with random characters from a pool IS the main gameplay challenge.*
b) I picked Amber/Xinyan as example because they are universally considered "bad", and they are certainly hard to make versatile. But you can. You can put Elegy/Noblesse on Amber, farm her Cons from shop and you have Chevreuse sidegrade. Xinyan with cons becomes a Phys Shred ToM Shielder support.
No, I'm not saying you should pull or spend or build this characters. *But AM I'm saying that you should build characters you like, and that no matter who that character is, there IS a way to make them work smoothly in a team.* _If you want._
There is an opportunity cost, yes. But a lot of people have a single team and farm artifacts daily. You farm for CV on your artifacts. I farmed boss mats so all 50 of my characters are above 60. Some spend resin and pulls to get 10% better damage. I spend it making my Amber 200% more useful.
Either way. I think we could agree that at the very least, having 2 or 3 characters of EACH element build is not a bad idea and that a restriction that lets you use 42% of the roster is barely a restriction.
c) You may not find it fun. But that's _YOUR opinion._ We can say the same the other way around. _"It's just not fun that I can't use my favourite characters in Spiral Abyss"._
Once again: *The point of a roguelike is that you DON'T have control of the variables*
And you are sorely missing the point. The point is not that I get rewarded because "I get to use Amber" or whatever. I WAS already using these characters and I get rewarded for my investment. And gameplay-wise, I got to use Amber Overload Tech, Burst support Battery capabilities with the ER boons. I get to use Lisa's Quadratic scaling with Kazoo because I don't have him. Dehya was quite fun with the Off-field boon. *There is many things.* I genuinely wonder if people ACTUALLY read the boons and made use of the ones that are not just damage buffs.
@@franklinfernandes5593 Y'all proving me right. If your teams in IT are "random bullshit" that speaks more for your ability to build teams than for the state of IT.
My teams are not "random bullshit".
Why are people still playing this game I feel bad for you guys stuck in the past womp womp game will never improve
I love how Hoyo refuses to acknowledge that a way to alleviate the problem with scarcity and randomness is making the character roster 4 elements instead of 3, therefore making it easier to fill the 12 spots and also have real variety for team building.
Also, how are they gonna make the next iteration work for the banner characters? Nilou needs Hydro and Dendro, Emilie needs Pyro and Dendro and Navia is Geo WTH.
THE PROBLEM IS WHY IS IT NOT GIVING ME 999999999999999999999 PRIMO GEMS