Bernstein on Schoenberg and Berg part V
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 เม.ย. 2014
- Schoenberg ,intrepid extraterrestrial cartographer ;who at age 70 still hadn't heard any of his major works performed ; I say "Thank You". Arnold Schoenberg not only provided the exact location of those cliffs beyond which there be interstellar space ,but he built a space station and lived out there for 40 years . Damn !
In this 9min excerpt Bernstein shines a light on the limits of basic human affective response through the lens of the 2nd Viennese school ; while at the same time pointing out the tonal implications embedded in Schoenberg's and Berg's serial music . We also take a peek at the Berg Violin Concerto . His last work . - เพลง
Wow! Bernstein is a great lecturer. His evident enthusiasm for communicating difficult theory to a potential lay audience is infectious. I could listen to him all day long enthralled!
Once or twice a year one of your videos pops up in my 'recommended' section as if to remind me to rewatch your Bernstein videos about Schönberg, Debussy and Stravinski. So here I am again. Thank for your manual labour it took to upload these gems.
Bro. this is why I did it cause I knew if I satisfied my own educational needs then I would also be at service to some others.
Thank you so much for posting this series. It's absolutely fantastic.
Mr. Thaxton you are most welcome . Now ,if you can find the time I would encourage you to check out the (unedited, they are edited actually) versions of these 6 lectures (easily found on you tube) or they can be purchased on Amazon . I would point out that I took it upon myself to present these excerpts because these lectures are almost 3 hours each .
Totally agree. Revelatory.
skip to 05:00 for where the last part left off
Ilari Anemaet thanks! I was wondering if anyone had posted this
The mind will always seek to find a pattern even in the most obtuse and complex systems..I think it is a natural/inate need to rationalise the chaotic nature of life. Twelve tones are not enough to create a system of music which could sound utterly new to our ears....Very very interesting post. Thank you.
I can't even imagine how much work it took to edit this .. thank you !
Bernstein's scholarship and charisma are sublime in these lectures. Fiat lux.
Thanks for posting Bernstein lessons. I do not listen modern music much, but there is an exception. A Survivor from Warsaw. In my opinion, no one better expressed horrors of the life in ghetto than Schoenberg and I think it is due to his unique atonal style.
Wow thank you for sharing sir
Can't believe you led me on to watch all 5 parts of this, with your comments at the start and end of each video!! Now I feel I have a much better understanding of this kind of classical music that I've always liked the most. Infact, I would hazard to say, its the only kind.
+ornsman wow! well good.. as I read the snippet of your comment that was sent to my e-mail I was thinking oh no ; not another hater that I will feel compelled to respond to . Well cool glad to have been of some small service .
9:35 when your favorite song comes up and you want to sing to it but then you forget the lyrics
I never thought I'd say this, but now I'm beginning to appreciate Berg a little more after this. As soon as Leonard said how beautiful his violin concerto was, though I'm not normally even into violin concerto's let alone 12 tone, I quickly brought up another youtube instance to have a listen to some of it before switching back to the lecture. Watch this space, but from what I heard I was quite impressed to my own surprise! Just out of interest I just bought Schoenberg's wonderful & titanic (and as far as I'm aware tonal) Gurreleider on CD's, though haven't scheduled time to listen to it yet.
The prelude and first orchestral interlude in Gurrelieder are amazing. Not that the singing parts aren't, but that interlude is just insanely good.
Thankyou for your excellent edits of the Bernstein lectures! Very informative and enjoyable!
Hey I wish I hadn't typed that stuff about Wagner here. I was going through an anti-sentimental period. I keep hearing compelling excerpts of various pieces especially overture Tristan & Isolde which is considered the 1st modern piece.
thanks very much for uploading 👍
thanks for sharing this.
this is an amazing series.... thank you so much for posting these.. YT algo served me a treat ;)
Listen I do encourage you/all music lovers to watch this entire series just type "unanswered question Bernstein" into You Tube and start with phonology lecture 1.🎹🎶
@@paxwallacejazz def.. I'm there!! I think this refers to a Charles Ives composition, if I'm not mistaken. He wrote a short piece with this title for strings and horn
Thank you so much for this upload. I have been incredibly inspired by Schoenberg's work, so much so that I am going to start composing in the vein of the serialism movement; however with the attempt off using 24 notes per octave.
UponABurningBeiber 24 huh ? Well ok and you're welcome .
Interesting: the first chord of the Schoenberg waltz op 23 is exactly the same as the chord that opens Vers la flamme by Scriabin. Did anyone notice that?
I confess that I have never heard that piece and will correct that oversight right now . God dontcha love you tube ?
Are you sure ? I love Vers La Flamme, one of the most beautiful piano piece I've heard. He wrote it 1914 after a vision he had of the world licked by the flames. How prophetic is that lol ?
i normally don't log in but i had to say how much i loved your comments during the video. it was almost like i was thinking the same thing!!! thanks.
thecoldstone Cool thanx
Listen almost all musical thinkers that I have met and respect do believe in these intrinsic human affective responses . I do "intuitively" and the idea that they are related to Chomsky's idea of "Innate Grammatical Competence" seems no great leap to me . What also naturally follows from this idea is the idea that there would be natural limits to the untrained ear . If any of this is true then this is very exciting news to a composer who might be interested in coaxing intelligent lay-people to follow a composition into and beyond the precipice so eloquently located by these followers of Arnold Schoenberg .
+paxwallacejazz I think they must do. Do you mean the harmonic series? But also, there are cases for dissonance as well. Its been proposed that we also have innate responses to 'noise', that white noise is akin to sensory deprivation, that pink or grey noise can still be an equally balanced.yet this is not the dissonance shown in serialism, but the dissonance of sonorism. But is it really dissonant? can we find real rules of dissonance? Clearly some seek that too but is that the psychoacoustic effects of noise, or just the jarring dissonances, i'd claim it was more the former. There are further innate responses, such as brightness, or percieved space in music, that you really can't turn around.
Also, visual art has long discarded the aesthetic in favour of the intellectual. Does this music really do that? Its based on a particular Platonic dualism in that the emotive is somehow illusive barrier to a truth...
Also, relativism, that would be one way out of it: that sounds are by associaton. I think they are both to be honest. But to support relativism, dissonance or atonality can be justified by context and intent....however the intent is clear in a piece like therenody to victims of hiroshima, yet not so clear in schoenberg. I'm not sure schoenburg even sounds so dissonant: just entropic, chaotic.... What other entropic and chaotic pieces are well loved: we could argue that is generative ambient music perhaps? The fact there is no tonal centre makes this seep into the background, it makes it similar to white noise...we must in the end a) know if some emotion is produced b) argue that culturally that emotion is seen as valuable: for instance what might be boredom to one culture may not be percieved as that to another.Drone music is used all over the world for one, as well as 'noisy' music, or music without notes, and music with different intervals, so there are plenty of cultural permutations, as infinite as discussing what culture is itself, since it provides the context and 'justification'/
The art of istening begins by going from the untrained ear, which reacts with delight to delightful sounds, to something less than an untrained ear. Like reading, the art of listening to this kind of music needs to be developed by an exposure based on open-mindedness, wonderment, fascination and curiosity. That´s what you called reverence for tonality which will lead to curiosity about what´s beyond which, as Berg so expressively shows, is definitely there. Learning to appreciate the ambiguity Bernstein speaks of here is the same as learning to appreciate irony in a literary work.
Schoenberg knew his whole tradition. When people complain about his music, it´s that they´ve just been used to hearing nice melodies and patterns which don´t challenge their ear. They can read THE LITTLE PRINCE. but then complain about Joyce, Kafka or Faulkner because...their patterned thinking doesn´t work and they´re lost. The ear, I believe, works the same way.
There is still much in music that I really don´t relate to or like, even after wide listening over the years. The fact is, one doesn´t have to like anything, but to not be curious, that´s a really blunder.
@Roberto, I completely agree with your comments. I would compare what you wrote about the "art of listening" to cinema. Most movie theatre goers are easily entertained by a standard Hollywood blockbuster style film (and that's fine) but would find Lars Von Trier unwatchable. However, with the proper introduction and a little education, a whole new world of appreciation and understanding could be opened up to them.
Peace. JR
Absolutely Jonny! I think it was Paul Auster who said something about going from "ignorance to something less than ignorance." And I think it was the Cuban writer Lezama Lima who said that only difficulty was interesting. Sometimes there are works of art that capture us immediately, and other times we aquire...well, an aquired taste. I don´t believe in the relativity or democracy of taste: I only believe that you can talk about taste once you know (i.e. experience) a wide range of whatever your talking about. The person who just eats McDonalds and Pizza Hut can´t really make any comment about food or cuisine. A person who just watches special effects movies or martial arts or action films, cannot make any comment on what cinema is. The person who just reads Dan Brown or any other of the fly-by-night bestsellers knows next to nothing about literature or story telling.
The attentive and grateful listener of music will reach Schoenberg and Berg at some point. The attentve and grateful watcher of movies will reach Von Trier or other fine directors as well. The attentive and grateful reader will reach Borges, Faulkner, Kafka and maybe even Joyce, At that point, one can begin to talk about what one likes or thinks is good or bad.
@@jonnyroxx7172 yup
Such a shame Bernstein didn’t talk about Webern more- being that his music is of course so incredibly important for all music that came after it
You know how Schoenberg fans are either Anton or Alban I think Webern might have been a bridge too far at least for these lectures.
@@paxwallacejazz yeah makes sense. I haven a sneaking suspicion Bernstein might not have wanted to cover Webern as much as well as he pushed music in a quite different direction to where Bernstein’s music ends up
Wonderful stuff.
I know you had to edit for time, but where can I find the whole thing, without interruptions?
I certainly do!
Start at 5:06 if you've seen the earlier 4 episodes already (previous footage is used until then)
Most famous tone row phrase of recent times ..... Close Encounters Of The Third Kind theme?!!
I call the very few passages in my compositions which are not traditonally tonal "free-tonal." As for the augmented triad, it is an all-purpose chord which can be used anywhere. I thus try to avoid it - but I don't always succeed.
Schonberg enjoyable. . . Why not ask the jazz masters? I can always hear him coming back in a good jazz solo.
No no no no
The opening sounds like Bill Evans.
What is the source material for these videos? Is it available anywhere in full?
They are entitled "The Unanswered Question c.1973" the six Norton lectures presented at Harvard and televised by PBS way back in 1973 . Each year there is a Norton lecture series presented at Harvard University .
Read the classic college text book by Grout. Much deeper than these lectures.
Are these the Harvard Norton Lectures ? Still available, I think.
Yepers Amazon or just type in Unanswered Question to You Tube. A couple of channels have all 6 for free
Okay, so where does Bernstein's pronunciation of 'atonal' w/ 'a' like in 'at' come from?
+Robby R Damn Ivy League old school Yankee ay ? You know like W.F.Buckley etc.
Like agnostic (Greek)
10:38 Leonard looks like Pierrot himself here
I like Webern a hell of a lot more than Berg, I wish he talked about him more.
I find Webern compelling chilling and deeply mysterious but not in a dreamy impressionistic way but in a non-carbon based sentient life form kinda way. I think Webern might have freaked Bernstein out because he never addressed his huge contribution modern compositional thought.
But I love Berg because he's so much closer to this jazz pianist's scope of the possible .
Thanks for uploading. It's compensation enough for your childish dismissal of Richard Wagner.
Hey I like the overture of "Tristan and Isolde".quite a bit actually and you're welcome .
No Schoenberg, no film music.
Bernstein is the greatest musical pedagogue that I know of, but I disagree with his thesis. I worked with John Cage from 1976-78 and the argument that tonality is natural because of the overtone series wasn’t considered a legitimate argument. I write 12 tone row music exclusively now and find it quite satisfying...if you bring in African American rhythmic vitality and the simplicity of the minimalists.
Interesting you and Steve Reich must form some kinda book ends with jazz in between. Well As a Jazz pianist who composes in that post Wayne Shorter Kenny Wheeler style my hats off to you!
I suspect that Jazz has somehow unwittingly assumed the mantal of advanced post Schoenberg tonality. I feel pretty sure the virtual impossibility of improvising actual atonality without imposing rows (Please) on the improvisers, although Sam Rivers David Holland duets or Cecil musta come close maybe even Braxton at points.✌☯️
PS used to attend Cornish and spent many hours playing Cages old beat up Chickering. That thing deserves a thorough rebuild.
@@paxwallacejazz
Pax,
I listened to your Bill Evan’s tune. You play well. If you are interested in looking into a two measure atonal theme (one I wrote for Cage) email me at Steve@SteveDukes.com
I tried to post it here, but it won’t allow images.
In any case thanks for the videos, love Bernstein’s simplicity and clarity.
Thank you for sharing. But the comments are quite stupid ....
uah! 🐻👍👍👍 ✨🌜🌹🌛✨
I'm sorry, "the long winded hyper-romantic bombast of most of Wagner?" Even Wagner himself had delicacies in his music, some even Schoenberg himself played off of. Have you listened to Tristan und Isolde or Der Meistersinger von Nürnberg? So many minute instrumentations, lietmotif usage, and contrapuntal gems are within the music. Certainly you haven't heard Schoenberg's Gurrelieder. I, myself, would consider that "long winded" and "hyper-romantic."
+Johnny Salvesen You clearly haven't viewed these lectures (I don't mean my little excerpts) You oughta you might learn something the overture to Tristan and Isolde is dealt with in great detail in lecture 4 and then performed by Bernstein and the Boston Symphony. It's DNA is all embedded in Schoenberg op 23 the 1st 12 tone composition . Man a little knowledge is a dangerous thing indeed .
I saw a few of these lectures and find them to be a cheap quick reduction of the classic college text book by Grout. Being able to analyze, play or talk intelligently about every piece in the repertoire does not make you an artist and that is how I feel about Bernstein. The reason he and a lot of people prefer Berg and Webern to Schoenberg is most likely such things as usage of 3rds and more familiar rhythmic structures.
Dude thank you for putting it up but seriously, let Bernstein speak for himself.
Man you have no idea how much editing I needed to do in general regarding these 6, 3 hr. lectures in general to come up with these bite size posts that constitute nitty gritty briefings for John Q Public .Plus believe me ain't no force in the verse can stop Bernstein from having his say even from the grave . Much less me .
oh yeah just re-watched this one you got a point brother .
Is it Bernstein's thesis that the only reason this music is acceptable ("positive ambiguity") because of its tonal implications?
Well I think he's saying that there are tonal implications do what we may. Although I notice he didn't mention Webern . Still if you ever hear some music history revisionist using Bernstein's name to reinforce their attack on modernism you now might correct them . The man held the 2nd Viennese school in high regard
schizyfos weakness I hear you saying something interesting but not sure I get it . my apologies . Let me admit 1st of all that I have no knowledge of Husseri , or Hilbert's programme and I have only heard of Goedel but can't claim any comprehension there either sorry . I (being a fan of Ed Witten) believe Quantum Mechanics (while it is an amazing edifice with uncanny and complete empirical legitimacy) is so wacky because it is a model stuck in 3 dimensions attempting to explain phenomena taking place in higher dimensions . What this might mean is that the subatomic world might look like a mathematical Jackson Pollack only because we can only perceive the tip of the ice berg . I do like jackson Pollack and much atonality regardless .
I hope so
paxwallacejazz I'm hoping you could explain Pollock to me then. I understand and appreciate Webern and Schoenberg, love Berg (and other very dissonant but not very atonal composers like Stravinsky/Bartok) but I cannot help but feel people like Pollock are frauds and are having us on. I feel the same way with things like 4"33 and chance compositions. If a child banging at a piano could make it (or throwing paint at a canvas), is it really "high art" and worth paying millions of dollars for (as Pollock paintings are indeed valued that high!)?
oops should'a clicked reply
Back to Bach!
There may be an innate grammatical competence, yet one would hardly give Joyce, Cummings, the Pound Cantos', Kerouac or Ginsburg to a child. There still is a welcome learning curve (as circuitous as we allow it to be) that makes life, at least partially, worth living. I find that Cage and the Sex Pistols enrich my ears as much as Elliot Carter or Bach, or Cecil Taylor or Benny Goodman. The only bad music is, like any art form or information, that which lies.
+Robert Slagle yeah (roger that) over all .
wish the maestro would speak layman's English, lol!
+alexander dela cruz Yeah ok you must understand these are just snippets snatched from 6 ,2+hour long lectures they are completely decipherable by the layman who watches ,from the beginning . It might help to have a note pad, patience and the ability to replay sections that elude you . Presented in 1973 they are representative of a much higher intellectual standard that has since been swept away . These were the early days of PBS . These lectures are available all over you tube just look to your right or type in (The Unanswered Question )eg Shawn Bay or cagin are both channels that have posted these lectures .
+paxwallacejazz Tnx for the information. I like your jazz piano playing by the way, very nice.
+alexander dela cruz Thanx a lot !
It's the same in Britain. The intellectual standards have gone down over the years, but it was the advent of Classic fm which brought about the dumbing down of Radio 3 (originally the Third Programme), where I learned a lot in the 60s and the 70s through listening to music and talks about music covering the works of anon through to Zemlinsky. Sleeve notes used to be more informative as well.
Now broadcast concerts are fixated on interviews with the performers asking inane questions about how difficult it is to play a Rachmaninov concerto. Look at the number of notes on the piano part!!! In the old days we were given pointers of what to expect and listen out for in the music, very helpful if it was your first experience of Beethoven's Fifth, for instance (piano concerto or symphony!).
Thanks for posting these snippets. Bernstein was a clever guy and a good communicator.
definitely addressed to a highly qualified audience...NOT for the common man....,
Not true he in each lecture takes time to explain his terms in great detail. If you treat folks like they're smart than sure you loose some but just as many put on their thinking caps. An idea we've seemed to've lost in this high tech dark age.
You do understand that these are just short snippets of much longer lectures right? Watch the whole thing. It's called the "Unanswered Question" Bernstein circa 1973 back when the bar was a bit higher.