So Gannon said to bonanza once that if you can't anhyzer drive you'll never be pro. This explains the anhyzer pocket reachback with a full nose down release. 😮😮😮
I thought the comment was less about actually throwing on anhyzer and more about the disc appearing to be on an anhyzer tilt (briefcase). Might be misremembering though. Funny enough, Gannon has less briefcase on the way into the left chest this year compared to last year and said it happened automatically, not intentionally, but he feels he is hitting his lines better now. But, as I've shown, you don't need the disc to be visibly on briefcase into the pocket to still be able to turn the key for nose down on the way out of the pocket.
I love these testing videos as I struggle a lot with nose down. Do you have consistent nose down when playing on a course given how consistent you are testing?
I change my form too often so my on course performance suffers more variability from that. But the idea is I’m doing A LOT of early exploring at the expense of some consistency so that when I settle down more I have more confidence made strong informed choices with the form I settle down with. There were some times where I stuck with a form for a while though and was probably fairly consistently +2 to -4 nose which I’m pretty happy with. What’s also tough is I play a lot of wooded courses with low ceilings which I think have a natural pull to not throw very nose down because of the low ceilings. In order to throw nose down through a low ceiling you have to have a lot of trust like Isaac Robinson to throw a high launch angle into the ceiling with nose down and know it will reach the max height just before hitting the ceiling-I haven’t practiced that trust enough so I naturally revert to not as nose down when playing those courses a lot. Thankfully tho, with all this testing, as soon as I see I’m throwing more nose up than expected, I can just focus more on turn the key effort and / or timing and very quickly get it down.
There is only one thing that influences nose down - the last point of contact with the disc at release being the upward force applied by the forefinger as it snaps into the thumb. This is due to phenomenon of physics known as, "Gyroscopic precession." Pete Ulibarri has 2 excellent videos explaining this: th-cam.com/video/zL1kYUQR9Rc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=lk9Lkl0_pp1xl8gF and th-cam.com/video/9oY2fOricP4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3j6gcoTWGuC4t3pm
How does that explain the grip where I’m loosely holding the edge of the rim in the vid and it just slips out and is nose down? I can barely hold onto it, it just slips out. 18:42 However, with the right hand, supination does make the index finger turn and hook upwards clockwise. But without supination the index finger doesn't have as much force like that. Supination is the more direct driver of that force. edit: here's a throw with a loop attached to the top of the disc and only the thumb in that loop using supination to get the nose down. th-cam.com/video/jEwWe2RKNxs/w-d-xo.html
@@disc-golf-neil It looks like scott25253 and I are getting recommended the same videos. But to provide more context to what he is saying, I always recommend to watch shots by Isaac Robinson. Find any tee shots where he is throwing a mid and the camera is positioned behind him. You can see that Isaac's shots, especially with mids, come out of the hand very nose up, but AFTER he has already released the disc, it seems to magically snap into a neutral or nose down angle of attack relative to the launch angle. If the grip alone was the only thing that affected nose angle, then it couldn't possibly be happening after it has already been released. Thats because it is happening because of the gyroscopic progression that @scottw5253 is talking about. The technique is highly timing sensitive. It's a flip upward of the fingers underneath the disc right at release. Because forces acting against a spinning disc don't take effect until 90 degrees of rotation AFTER the perturbance, an upward flipping motion at the 3 o'clock position (for RHBH) at release doesn't take effect until the 6 o'clock position on the disc which has the effect of raising the back and dropping the nose. That is because he is doing a very subtle wrist flip (think turning a key in a door) that lifts the disc at the 3 o'clock position right as he is releasing it. Both the grip and the flip upward at 3 o'clock both affect nose angle. Edit: Here is a quick search of a recent putter shot that he kind of shanked, but it shows the flip to flat AFTER the release pretty well. th-cam.com/video/ZuFLR0eSb6U/w-d-xo.html
Pete Ulibarri is wrong. His physics knowledge is definitely subpar. It's fairly easy to prove that he's wrong as well, as it's perfectly possible to throw with quite a severe negative nose angle without even having the index finger under the disc at all. Listen to advice, then think and verify.
@@robertkluttz8313 You cannot look at the nose angle directly in the throw. The technical nose angle doesn't exist except in relation to the launch angle so you have to see the launch angle clearly to actually see the nose angle. I've heard that as the disc turns, the nose gets pulled down. I don't think he's releasing it nose up and then it's turning down, it's already nose down I think but the flip up (turn) of the disc brings it down even more and most of what you see with his putter and mid flights I think are just the differences in how putters and mids fly with the same throws. The side view is easier to see the nose angle in relation to the launch angle. It's usually never a perfect camera angle but here's a decent one, you can see just before release the effect of supination warping the back of the disc down as the front is turned down to come out nose down immediately. It's hard to see still though because the camera angle is seeing the top flight plate due to the height of the camera and the hyzer on the disc: i.imgur.com/z5CJtNS.png It would be easier to see the nose is immediately down at release if the camera angle was a perfect side profile like this putt shows, most people would see as nose neutral (it's -23 deg nose) because the putter appears to be flat / parallel to the the ground without seeing the launch angle line in relation to the nose angle. So you could imagine how small -4 would look in relation to the launch angle from a side profile view: i.imgur.com/QGaX11d.png
@@andreasericsson6989 I uploaded a throw to show this recently. I taped a cardboard hook to the top of the disc and put only my thumb in it with no other fingers touching the disc and easily threw severely nose down by turning the key.
Great info Neil! I’m going to put a hard focus on this in tomorrow’s field session.
I love the makeshift net and I feel like I would have a similar janky setup if I tried this indoors too
Sadly my apt isn't big enough for a full net and I'm upstairs so can't be stomping the brace, lol.
So Gannon said to bonanza once that if you can't anhyzer drive you'll never be pro. This explains the anhyzer pocket reachback with a full nose down release. 😮😮😮
I thought the comment was less about actually throwing on anhyzer and more about the disc appearing to be on an anhyzer tilt (briefcase). Might be misremembering though.
Funny enough, Gannon has less briefcase on the way into the left chest this year compared to last year and said it happened automatically, not intentionally, but he feels he is hitting his lines better now.
But, as I've shown, you don't need the disc to be visibly on briefcase into the pocket to still be able to turn the key for nose down on the way out of the pocket.
I love these testing videos as I struggle a lot with nose down. Do you have consistent nose down when playing on a course given how consistent you are testing?
I change my form too often so my on course performance suffers more variability from that. But the idea is I’m doing A LOT of early exploring at the expense of some consistency so that when I settle down more I have more confidence made strong informed choices with the form I settle down with.
There were some times where I stuck with a form for a while though and was probably fairly consistently +2 to -4 nose which I’m pretty happy with.
What’s also tough is I play a lot of wooded courses with low ceilings which I think have a natural pull to not throw very nose down because of the low ceilings. In order to throw nose down through a low ceiling you have to have a lot of trust like Isaac Robinson to throw a high launch angle into the ceiling with nose down and know it will reach the max height just before hitting the ceiling-I haven’t practiced that trust enough so I naturally revert to not as nose down when playing those courses a lot.
Thankfully tho, with all this testing, as soon as I see I’m throwing more nose up than expected, I can just focus more on turn the key effort and / or timing and very quickly get it down.
There is only one thing that influences nose down - the last point of contact with the disc at release being the upward force applied by the forefinger as it snaps into the thumb. This is due to phenomenon of physics known as, "Gyroscopic precession." Pete Ulibarri has 2 excellent videos explaining this: th-cam.com/video/zL1kYUQR9Rc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=lk9Lkl0_pp1xl8gF and th-cam.com/video/9oY2fOricP4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3j6gcoTWGuC4t3pm
How does that explain the grip where I’m loosely holding the edge of the rim in the vid and it just slips out and is nose down?
I can barely hold onto it, it just slips out.
18:42
However, with the right hand, supination does make the index finger turn and hook upwards clockwise. But without supination the index finger doesn't have as much force like that. Supination is the more direct driver of that force.
edit: here's a throw with a loop attached to the top of the disc and only the thumb in that loop using supination to get the nose down. th-cam.com/video/jEwWe2RKNxs/w-d-xo.html
@@disc-golf-neil It looks like scott25253 and I are getting recommended the same videos. But to provide more context to what he is saying, I always recommend to watch shots by Isaac Robinson. Find any tee shots where he is throwing a mid and the camera is positioned behind him. You can see that Isaac's shots, especially with mids, come out of the hand very nose up, but AFTER he has already released the disc, it seems to magically snap into a neutral or nose down angle of attack relative to the launch angle. If the grip alone was the only thing that affected nose angle, then it couldn't possibly be happening after it has already been released. Thats because it is happening because of the gyroscopic progression that @scottw5253 is talking about. The technique is highly timing sensitive. It's a flip upward of the fingers underneath the disc right at release. Because forces acting against a spinning disc don't take effect until 90 degrees of rotation AFTER the perturbance, an upward flipping motion at the 3 o'clock position (for RHBH) at release doesn't take effect until the 6 o'clock position on the disc which has the effect of raising the back and dropping the nose. That is because he is doing a very subtle wrist flip (think turning a key in a door) that lifts the disc at the 3 o'clock position right as he is releasing it. Both the grip and the flip upward at 3 o'clock both affect nose angle. Edit: Here is a quick search of a recent putter shot that he kind of shanked, but it shows the flip to flat AFTER the release pretty well. th-cam.com/video/ZuFLR0eSb6U/w-d-xo.html
Pete Ulibarri is wrong. His physics knowledge is definitely subpar. It's fairly easy to prove that he's wrong as well, as it's perfectly possible to throw with quite a severe negative nose angle without even having the index finger under the disc at all. Listen to advice, then think and verify.
@@robertkluttz8313 You cannot look at the nose angle directly in the throw. The technical nose angle doesn't exist except in relation to the launch angle so you have to see the launch angle clearly to actually see the nose angle.
I've heard that as the disc turns, the nose gets pulled down. I don't think he's releasing it nose up and then it's turning down, it's already nose down I think but the flip up (turn) of the disc brings it down even more and most of what you see with his putter and mid flights I think are just the differences in how putters and mids fly with the same throws.
The side view is easier to see the nose angle in relation to the launch angle. It's usually never a perfect camera angle but here's a decent one, you can see just before release the effect of supination warping the back of the disc down as the front is turned down to come out nose down immediately. It's hard to see still though because the camera angle is seeing the top flight plate due to the height of the camera and the hyzer on the disc: i.imgur.com/z5CJtNS.png
It would be easier to see the nose is immediately down at release if the camera angle was a perfect side profile like this putt shows, most people would see as nose neutral (it's -23 deg nose) because the putter appears to be flat / parallel to the the ground without seeing the launch angle line in relation to the nose angle. So you could imagine how small -4 would look in relation to the launch angle from a side profile view: i.imgur.com/QGaX11d.png
@@andreasericsson6989 I uploaded a throw to show this recently. I taped a cardboard hook to the top of the disc and put only my thumb in it with no other fingers touching the disc and easily threw severely nose down by turning the key.