that's kinda what fighting the Pokemon League felt like i just waltz in, get brutally kicked in the ass and before you know it the first champion's already seeing me come in like "heyyyyyyyyyy"
Someone else pointed this out, so I'll just quote them: "It wasn't just Stephen's intelligence that won [the confrontation with Dormammu], it was spinning the context of the situation. I highly doubt Dormammu would've even considered the idea of not murdering him forever had he not said "That makes you my prisoner." Flipping the context of the situation makes Dormammu feel like he's not in control, and a being that huge and all-powerful not being in control is far worse than any fate he could've inflicted on Doc. Taking control away from one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse stings its ego, just like the loss of his hands; hands being a parable for control. Stephen knew the best way to get under Dormammu's metaphysical skin was the same way to get under his own skin, because he knows the failings of ego."
And "control" is where the villain whose name I'd have to rewind the video just to remember, let alone spell comes in. Everyone in the movie EXCEPT the Ancient One is looking for this perfect control. Mordu believes in the rules, in an orderly universe that has rules for a reason and that only by tightly controlling the universe through those rules can an ideal be reached. Hench wants a perfect, timeless, static world, where bad things can't happen because THINGS don't happen independent of the concept of time. Dormammu sees a whole reality to invade and capture and control. Strange has spent his entire adult life with literal control over life and death, tightly managing the odds so that he maintains this ludicrous perfect record as a surgeon. He loses control once and spends years and all of that wealth trying to get it back. Only when he gives up on that idea of perfect control, total control over the outcome, does he get the mental ability to act as Dormammu's mortal, fragile, infinitely killable jailor.
@@aradraugfea6755 As far as I remember, even the Ancient One was once looking for control - over death, at least - in her heyday. That was why she sought the dark arts to stay alive longer, and she even mentions how it's hard to let go. The movie takes place at a point where she consciously realizes that total control is fruitless, and even then, we see echoes of that younger, control-hungry self.
Exactly! This is why Stephen’s awesome. He knows he doesn’t stand a chance of defeating an elderitch monster, he doesn’t care! At that point, allowing himself to experience that pain, just so the earth could live was more important to him. It shows a strength of character, yes, but also dhows the courage and nobility that was always dormant in him.
I also like that Strange's not-really love interest who, while not a big character, is also made to contrast him, is an emergency doctor. A doctor who deals with chaos, who can't chose what she gets on her table, who is working in the field of medicine where you literally have the least control. Where you're bound to lose some patients because you can't pick. Strange can get his patients, prepped and ready for him, in the sterile OR. Christine...can't. She gets the agony, she is there, with patients who are crying, bleeding, hurting.
You just inspired me to make two spellcaster characters Library Wizard & ER Witch EW: DO NOT ASK! LW: ...and that's why we have FOUR BATHROOMS. She had an Okay day, I'm sure...
@@Ramsey276one Could have a whole conflict of societies, with the wizards protecting society on the political level in palaces and the witches protecting communities on a personal level in the villages and cities. And of course they can't stand each other, despite both dedicating their everything to protecting peace and freedom.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel Hence LW and EW share a house near the city limits. LW leaves the car at the Parking Tower, EW arrives... SOMEHOW. Cartpool? Gatorback? UBERTAUR? XD
One of my favorite moments in the MCU is Strange being notably upset and disturbed at having taken a life. Even if it was to save his own life and, ultimately, stop the bad guy he still took an oath to do no harm. It was nice to see.
Yeah for as much of an ass as he is he still completely took the Hippocratic Oath to a very personal degree and breaking is some hard shit for him apparently. Definitely a nice touch
One thing that didn't get mentioned that struck me was that even as the Ancient One is imparting this last lesson about not being in control, she acknowledges how hard it is to relinquish that control. "You think after all this time, I'd be ready. But look at me. Stretching one moment out into a thousand... just so that I can watch the snow."
I really appreciated that especially, as well! In the comics, the Ancient One was always (in my experience) cast as just the stereotypically wise, saint-like, teacher who shows up to issue judgements upon the flawed protagonists. Having this Ancient One be aware of her own flaws, and selfish, and still unable to not be a tiny bit selfish in the moment of her death, changed EVERYTHING, because it proved that she actually knew what she was talking about rather than just being some transcendent teacher reciting dogma. And by association, that makes her student Strange all the more human as well.
@@sabertoothkim Oh yeah I never realized the teacher teaches student teaches teacher dynamic they had, and it really makes the first movie a treat to rewatch.
@@sabertoothkim Yeah honestly unfortunate that she had to die, I get that it's a key point in Strange's story in the movie but I really liked Swinton in the role and I thought she was written well
@@impartialthrone2097 The main complaint that I saw was actually whitewashing, but there's no way that Disney was going to take a stance on Tibet or even mention it if possible. So you're either changing the race (to white, because this is still Hollywood) or changing the country. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I do worry that multiverses will fall into the same pitfall as zombies. Everyone jumps on to it because it can be a very effective narrative if executed well, but everyone ends up sick and tired of it because too many botch it up.
Considering the woke, contrived dumpster fire that was multiverse of madness, I have zero hope for anything marvel makes next. One massive edit because you soy-cucks like to nit-pick like diseased chimps: (WARNING: read before replying) For context; I don't just spew drinkers views. (maybe go read the rest of the comments before you drag yourself into this debate.) I used my own arguments; and his points happen to be very similar to mine; which is why I said to go watch him because our views are very similar. That's why I sourced his video. Also Nerdrotic has similar points too; very good points. So If I'm "copying Drinker", then I guess Nerdrotic copies drinker too; also his review came out a few day after drinkers, so its in theory possible, according to your "standards". Speaking of reviewers; go watch The Little Platoon if you want a very in depth review; he goes VERY deep into it; and also makes similar points to Drinker and Nerdrotic. Also; the fact your raging, have resorted to calling me names, false reported me as spam and spew flat out false claims just means I'm right; your raging because you have no counter argument. What's even funnier is how you whine and complain; saying I have none, then go dead silent when I pull up. Seriously, grow up. Also; if anyone replies to this and still whines like a dying chimp I'm just going to ignore your goofy ass; because you either: 1. Ignored the reply warning. 2. Can't read. 3. Have room temperature IQ. 4. Are a trained chimpanzee that somehow has internet access. 5. Flat out ignored the warning and my statements; just to have something to whine about. 6. Are a troll / brainlet with nothing better to do. 7. Full of sheer arrogance. 8. Are a libtard. TLDR: Jokes on you; there is no tldr, learn to read.
@@FatherAndrew-Scarlet-Priest woke? Why are people calling every movie they don't like "woke". Is it because one of the main characters isn't white? Seriously it's not even political it's just diverse. When will people make real criticism again.
@@FatherAndrew-Scarlet-Priest anyone who unironically uses “woke” doesn’t have a real criticism of the thing in question. Edit: Came back to see that Andrew deleted his comment in shame. F
I also want to point out that the insult "bachelor's degree" thrown at the PT, *probably isn't even accurate*. Physical therapists generally have graduate degrees in order to do their work. Which means he's just decided the PT is lesser than him, and pulls whatever education-based insult out that is easiest.
Very true!! My mom and one of my best friends went through PT school, it's years of nonstop school with no vacations and a brutal curriculum. It's not brain surgery, but it takes an overwhelming amount of effort, intelligence, patience, and compassion to do.
@@CanonKathrynFun fact' it's currently a doctorate degree in the US, but it hasn't always been. I know a couple of near-retirement PTs with "just" a bachelor's.
Little interesting note. When Steve Ditko created Doctor Strange and sent in his illustrations for the magic he casts. Sevreal people in Marvel honestly thought he was on drugs and would frequently visit him at his home to make sure he was doing alright.
@@animationdude9 I assume they are referring to Ditko being an isolationist stuck in his views after the comic world changed? He didn't handle that very well he was an old comic creator that was stuck in the view of kids can only be sidekicks, morality is black and white and he couldn't deal with that. He went to DC after leaving Marvel where he could stay in that mindset for longer but still not forever. Then he became an indie publisher of his own work until he died at 90 of a heart attack.
Something that is scary of that final Dormmamu scene is that we'll never know for how long Strange and Dormmamu were trapped in the loop. It easly could've been a couple minutes or straight up centuries, even if it was a couple minutes Strange was still willingly and voluntarily accepting death multiple times. Each time the loop started he could've just fled, but he didn't, he died extremely painfully over and over to save the world, what a badass.
As heroic and grand as Tony Stark's death was and how beautifully it was executed. I still felt that Strange also made such a great gamble and sacrifice himself. What if Dormamu somehow broke the loop or had the ability to control his mind or Strange actually lost his mind during the loop. Yet still, no one will ever know what he did. Especially that dumb sorcerer that kept saying "The bill is due" or something like that
I have always assumed that he died 14000605 times to Dormammu. I know his vision of possibilities might not be tied in any way to this duel but it somehow felt right. Even if he always died after a few seconds or minutes... that would be months of constant suffering and combat. If sanity of anyone could srvuve such an ordeal then they would get really good at fighting; whatever their original experience was.
One scene from the movie that I still find particularly important is when he kills his attackers. Unlike most "normal" people in these movies he is visibly upset. The thought of taking a life is upsetting to his core. His first reaction is to leave the monastery and be done with sorcery. It is rare to see a truly human reaction to death in a comicbook movie and I think it does a lot to show that even though Strange is an @$$hole at his core he is still a caring human being.
It's also especially important because he defines himself as a doctor. Even upon becoming a sorcerer he still refers to himself as a doctor. And of course, a defining feature of being a doctor is to do no harm. Like losing the Ancient One, this to him is a failure as a doctor, another blow to his ego, just one that pushes him in the opposite direction that the Ancient One's death does.
That's also the one time the Ancient One does anything resembling ego stroking, when she offers him the New York Sanctum. She even suggests the title of "Master Strange", which he angrily responds with "It's /Doctor/." Followed by him stating clearly that even if he's an arrogant dickhead, First Do No Harm still means something to him.
@@sadnessofwildgoats I can't remember the number, but it's the one with the "master tactician" and there's supposed to be a simulated battle between the Enterprise and another much weaker Federation ship. Data is convinced to fight the guy in a strange electronic game and loses, and suddenly feels like he can't be trusted to make the right decisions. Picard had to convince him that losing doesn't always equal failure.
If your Ancient one is bald, powerful, filled with infinite chill and imparting the lesson that you cannot control the world before fading away gracefully into death. Then that's not the ancient one... That's Master Oogway.
There is also the fact that the “Bargaining” scene also works as a ridiculous power up for him too. He was still quite a novice at magic when he went in, but he had a constant eternity of combat training against a being he could never defeat. They also illustrate this with the scenes where he dies, you can see him slowly becoming more and more competent at dealing with Dormamu’s attacks.
Right? The scenes were fast, but it showed him surviving for longer periods of time, andeven showed him *deflecting and withstanding attacks.* That's pretty insane for a normal dude, but... who knows how long it acrually took for him to get to that point.
I don't know if it's just me but I really like that Strange and Christine don't end the film getting together or even as established friends again, it's clear both of them still care about the other, but his earlier shitty treatment isn't just forgotten either for the sake of the straight romance and I personally really appreciated that as someone with frankly no interest in watching another somewhat bland couple make out at the end of every film
It comes to a full head in Multiverse of Madness. And in what is a very poorly put together and tonally inconsistent film, that particular arc is on that is actually done well.
35:28 something else i really like is when Dormamu tells Strange "You can't win" and Strange answers "Yes, but I can fail, again and again for all eternity". Really highlights the growth in his character from being someone who only took cases that he knew he could succeed at so he could get praise to someone willing to sacrifice himself and fail over and over for no recognition at all. also in terms of visuals the whole mirror dimension sequence was sick
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that Strange doesn't just suddenly become an amazing magic user after The Ancient Ones death. He's still just as skilled as before, if maybe a little better at using what he knows due to accepting the risk of failure. Dr. Strange only becomes the amazingly skilled Sorceror Supreme we see in other movies during his struggle against Dormammu, gradually becoming better every loop. His actions not only represent his newfound acceptance of failure, but that because he accepts failure he can now learn from it. By accepting the fact he can fail Strange is able to master himself and his powers to a degree he never could without doing so.
That makes me curious as to how strong he could've become, if he had stayed in there longer. If Dormammu hadn't accepted the bargain, would he have eventually just gotten powerful enough to defeat him on his own?
@@SamJNE122 Well, he probably could still do that at the time, but I think him learning can be seen as something to keep him sane while dying over and over again.
Wait is this theory canon? 'Cause watching it at the time I made no assumption he was actually even aware of all the time spent in the loop. Dormammu was only aware of it because he's supposed to be "beyond time," that's why it worked. And that's the risk of using a Time Loop like that, you'll get stuck in it forever because you have no idea you're stuck in it and should hit the cancel button! And I'm not sure how much training you're going to get being killed every 6 seconds.
@@HydraulicDesign he seemed aware to me. And it would be pretty bullshit from a writer's standpoint for him to not be. Since it's a heroic act and Dormamu himself said that Strange would suffer and Strange replies with "Pain's an old friend" (which is a pretty badass line imo)
Before magic, Strange saw things as about him. Afterwards, Strange saw things as a grand calculus, needing to put the big picture before himself and others. Now with No Way Home and Multiverse he's finally learned it's not about him or the grand calculus, it's about helping when needed. THAT is a character arc.
I think the problem with that is the "when needed" part. If you have powers like that you are *always* needed. You basically have to deliberately ignore people you could help all the time.
It's also interesting to compare him with Wanda in MoM. Like him, Wanda lost something she thought was vital to her happiness and purpose, and obsessively chased after it, heedless of the damage she was doing to other people. You also get a hint of Strange's potential to go the same way when you see the Strange of the collapsed dimension and his obsessive wish to possess Christine. But in the end, he's able to accept that sometimes you just have to accept what you've lost and keep moving forwards, rather than being stuck pining for it.
There’s another part about the slow motion scene that I’d like to talk about. The slowed down helicopter in the air. Helicopters are known for their superb control in the air, being able to shift just a few feet in one direction and being able to stay level, but in this scene it’s being blown by the wind, fighting against the storm. I think that helicopter is also symbolic of strange and the idea of control. In the storm of chaos and fate, we have that little portion of the sky we can control. We cannot change the weather, we cannot stop the lightning or snow, which are likely symbolic of all the problems fate throws at us, but we can still work through the challenges of fate. We may have to make course corrections and things may get a little shaky, but if we do it right we can still safely get to our desired destination despite all the challenges that are thrown at us.
I appreciate how Red isn’t afraid to be optimistic. I feel like many wannabe intellectuals believe that being negative and nihilistic is the true way to view the world and anything positive isn’t real/is completely stupid. Red’s viewpoints are refreshing
not intellectuals but edgy 21st century young adults (and some older people). Actual intellectuals dont turn up edgy and bitter about fate and faith, they just accept the differences in philosophy and tolerates diversity. These edgelords on the other hand think they know better and shun the "sheep" of people who doesnt share their "enlightened" mind. which is a very fitting topic to discuss on a comment section for a movie that exemplifies exactly that! You're not THE ENLIGHTENED ONE in a sea of sheeps, you're part of the system and needs to learn tolerance towards it.
I like that you make the point about easy nihilism as an excuse not to try because one of the things that struck me the most about the Come To Bargain scene is that Strange *tries*, every loop. He knows he'll die, he knows that what's coming is an endless loop of pain and failure, but he always tries to block and stop what's coming for him, always tries to fight back each time. Which is so so much harder than just taking no action and mutely accepting helplessness. He finally learns the lesson that even if success is not guaranteed that doesn't mean he shouldn't put real effort into things that are worthwhile
if anything you could argue that's how strange kpet himself focused every time he died sure, he is still going to die, but might as well make the most of the minutes before that and get skilled at using the spells he knows
he also managed to get a LITTLE further each time. each time he died, he held out just a little longer than the last. so the thing that struck me as existentially scary is that he genuinely was LEARNING "How to defeat Dormammu"- or at least, "How to SURVIVE Dormammu". (not that it would've made a HUGE difference given the fact that Dormammu is orders of magnitudes more powerful than Strange was, and likely than Strange could ever actually BE, but i still found it kinda fascinating)
One part of this story that I love is when in End Game the Ancient One handed over the stone after Banner told her Dr. Strange handed it over to Thanos. She had ABSOLUTE faith in who Strange was and who he’d become. She couldn’t see past her death but the idea that Stephen had a plan was enough for her to give away the stone to Banner risking destruction of her own reality. She gave away the stone the same way he did knowing her student was correct in whatever action he took.
I think part of it was that she knew what he was going to have to face just after she died. She might not have been able to divine the outcome, but she was certainly smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and realize, "Oh, reality's still extant for Thanos to be a problem in, Strange must have gotten his head out of his ass enough to deal with Dormammu" when talking with someone who traveled back in time from significantly after her death. She already knew he had the potential for it, but she inferred that he did actually manage to reach the point where he *could* come up with the kind of plan that would actually work.
Like you mentioned with the New York Sanctum fight, despite all he's learned and likely being a faster student than most, he's still outclassed by those who've been at it a lot longer than he has. He only gets through as I recall by the skin of his teeth, a little luck, a little help (from the flaying cape), and a few moments of quick thinking. Another important moment leading up to the discussed scene is when Strange is in the surgery room, and sees that he can't keep his hands steady, rather than try to fight through it, he relinquishes some of that control, with little hesitation tells one of his colleagues that they'll have to do it, accepting that he is not in a position to save her life as much as he wants to, whereas at the beginning of the movie he would never even consider such even if there was a safer option. That moment, to me, was a huge pivot point for him in addition to the scene being discussed. This surgery isn't just a mark on his record, he has personal stakes in it, something he's never really had before. And yes, I love Stranges line with Dormamu tells Strange that he can't succeed: "No, but I can fail. Over, and over, and over. Making you, my prisoner."
I'm surprised that it wasn't mentioned how someone who fears failure would be attracted to Time Magic in the first place. What better avenue to pursue than one that lets you undo failures? That's another lesson that he learns in The Scene: an acknowledged Master of Time magic, as the Sorcerer Supreme guards the Eye of Agamotto, cannot prevent even her own death, let alone others. I think you'll like the themes of Multiverse a bit, and a lot of what you talk about resonates there.
I think part of it is that he can’t even deal with that amount of failure. Because even if he could go back and undo it, he still would have known that he failed in some way. And before he learns his lesson and accepts failure over and over again, even that small bit of failure, even when reversed, would be something his ego could not handle.
Can we all appreciate the fact that this movie basically ends up summing up to Dr. Strange beating a cosmic horror by basically just annoying it into submission?
I like the practical symbol of the lightning bolt as it goes in a million directions until it finds the end point and it solidifies into one line. Not only can we not control life and death, we can't control that final line burned into people's eyes that is our legacy. We reach out our lives in a thousand directions but ultimately we will hit the ground and in a bright and instant flash the path to that point is made clear for solemn reflection. Kind of beautiful, and some joy can be found in ot, but it has an undeniable sadness to it.
@@minutemansam1214 it's not a matter of "deepness", it's a matter of how well that analogy fits into what you can describe life to be. Like near perfect fit
Cumberbatch was the perfect actor for how they ended up writing Dr. Strange's character, the behavioral and emotional nuance is excecated so well, and you guys do a great job of highlighting that!
@@DragonbIaze052Well TBF I don't think Hope is even a character in the comics lol. Hank Pym and Janet are the Antman/Wasp and Scott later becomes Antman while Cassie is a hero as well. If they'd made her the protagonist (despite it making more sense in the narrative they built, her being trained while he's a newbie), the fan babies would've been up in arms lol.
@@MikeCoxmaul Hope IS a character in the comics since at least 1999, but only ever in alternate futures. Given how old they made Hank and Janet, I feel like one of these stories may have contributed to Hope being in the MCU. A main-timeline version named Nadia (Russian word for hope) was introduced the year after the movie version. She's a teenaged Black Widow-Wasp hybrid who's a massive dork, a total nerd, and also ace. She's a really fun character. I definitely recommend reading her debut issues in All-New All-Different Avengers, then her solo comic, Unstoppable Wasp.
Steve Rogers is an admirable everyman. He's someone with a heroic soul trapped in a body that can't effectively express the courage, tenacity, and other good qualities he possesses. However: 1. Tony Stark was always Inventive and Successful . . . and Alcoholic and an Emotionally Broken Womanizing, Flippant Jerk. Until his hero-turn where he understands commitment and self-sacrifice. 2. Thor was always Loyal and Prince of Asgard . . . and Arrogant and Impulsive and Entitled. Until his hero-turn where he understands humility and mortality. Stephen Strange starts out heroic, in the sense that he's a surgeon who saves hundreds of lives, and becomes self-centered, seemingly arrogant, and insular because of his fear of failure (as the Ancient One points out). In the comics, this is rooted in the same event that set him on the road to becoming a doctor: *his sister drowns while at a local swimming hole, and he's unable to save her.* Thus, a commitment to saving lives, tied up in a fear of trying to and failing, Hence the avoiding of cases with no hope of life-changing success (the elderly patient -- he can save her from her condition, but she's likely to die either from the stress of the surgery or another cause in the near future, and he'd feel attached and responsible, so he doesn't want to touch the case). Strange isn't an admirable everyman. He's an exceptional man, who should be exceptionally admirable, but who is too twisted up in his own inner demons to either believe he *really* deserves the accolades (he's more than a bit dismissive of the award dinner he's expected to attend) or to actually embrace his full potential (you see a hint of it when Dr. Palmer pulls him out of his shell: an amazing diagnosis, formulation of a surgical plan, and execution of a very delicate surgery, based on a tiny shred of a detail . . . so much more than cherry-picking pre-diagnosed surgeries that are lobbed over the plate so he can knock them out of the park). Strange has the talent to be a world-class diagnostician even if he had no hands at all . . . and a complete inability to accept any limitation that might lead to a failure that he's somehow responsible for. Either he controls every aspect of every case he chooses to involve himself in, to eliminate any chance of failing to save someone, or he can't bring himself to do it. Strange's watch collection is a nod to that need, as well. He wasn't able to save his sister because he couldn't reach her in time. Even though he knew all the right things to do, it was just too late to help her, and he couldn't control that factor. Hence the need to track time, to prioritize his time, to see himself as always on the precipice of failing, to see himself as unworthy of love, to think if he mars his perfect record (if anyone knows he's failed) everyone will realize what he believes about himself: that he's unworthy, that he can't do it, can't measure up, is less than he should be. The Ancient One calls him out on that in the lightning scene: the fact that he's never been driven by a desire to succeed, but by a fear of failing. That's the fatal flaw we see in Strange Supreme in the What If episode: he opens up to Dr. Palmer, and loses her, and cannot accept the idea that there can be a situation in which a life is important to him and he is unable to save that life. No matter the cost, he can't accept the idea of allowing that kind of pain to exist in his life again.
Honestly my favorite part of Dr. Strange is when he's driving before the crash, I turned to my dad and said "don't text and drive" and RIGHT THEN he crashed. Perfect.
I know Dr. Strange really well and I was expecting it, and I still screamed out loud. And the accident happens because he’s really fucking arrogant, with the flashy car and the high speed and planning more self-aggrandizement. And right before it, he actually accelerates. Yikes.
My favourite scene in Doctor Strange was the 'teach me!' scene. When he is shown proof that the world is so much more than what he already knows and is so confident about he casts ego aside (for that moment) and goes to learn more.
26:04 “It’s amazing how beautiful even the smallest of things can be when you look at them gratefully instead of expectedly or deservedly.” Blue… that is a beautiful quote. Thank you
Dr Strange in the comics is even more unheroic than movie Strange. Strange in the comics is the greatest surgeon ever, but he would only take on patients that could afford him. Anyone that couldn’t afford him, he didn’t care about them and wouldn’t take them on.
They really should have used that version of Strange. Movie Strange was unheroic but he was still fundamentally a good person, and it was a big loss to not show that change.
I was hesitant to watch because I haven't been able to see Multiverse of Madness (theatres are far away, okay?), so I really appreciate how you clarify you're not talking about it very quickly. Then I looked at the length of this video and realized I don't have the time to watch it right now. Definitely will when I can, though. Love these Detail Diatribes!
@in desperate need of a scotch Hard disagree. Multiverse of Madness absolutely exemplifies an important part of Strange's character and improves upon him in a significant way by the end of the film.
Don't watch multiverse of madness; its sucks. Its full of woke garbage, character assassination, contrivances and various other dog shit. This movie single headedly ruined dr strange as a character, just to keep spewing "The message".
One bit you guys kind of skipped over is that, when the ancient one was going in for surgery, Strange was prepping to go in as the surgeon, but then stepped aside to let the other doctor do it because he recognised that it wasn’t something he would be able to do.
for me the "i come to bargain" scene also has the theme of "you dont have to be stronger in power than your enemies. You just have to be more determined". and a lot of other superhero movies try to be like "he won cause he never gave up" but it always seemed meaningless, because in the end they win by being more powerful. like captain america, they try so often to reframe it as if what makes him a hero is his persistence and hope, but still he defeats his enemies by being physically stronger than them. but doctor strange pulled through with it. strange doesnt defeat dormammu, he is not stronger than dormammu. he is just annoying, he literally makes his dickhead-ness we all hated in the beginning the thing that saves the world.
Steve wasn't stronger than the entire Hydra battalion he was captured by. He saw unbeatable odds, refused to admit defeat, and came up with a plan to overcome the odds. He wasn't stronger than the Winter Soldier, but he refused to give up. He let himself get beaten into unconsciousness and nearly die because he refused to give up hope that Bucky was still in there. Steve wasn't stronger than Iron Man, but he still did everything he could to stand up for what he believed was right and worked to reach an ending where nobody had to die. He wasn't even close to being as strong as Thanos, even when working with both Thor and Iron Man. After all three of them were defeated together, Steve got back up, stared his death in the face, and refused to give up. If it wasn't for everybody else showing up, he would have been killed with minimal effort at that point. In only one of those four situations did he actually win the physical fight, and it's also a fight he didn't want to happen in the first place AND he lost the fight he was actually trying to win (convincing Tony he's wrong). The thing about Captain America never giving up isn't that it's how he wins a fight, because it never has been. Never giving up is part of what makes him a hero because he will always believe in and fight for a better future. He genuinely believes in other people and does everything he can to help them. The only thing that happens to him personally when he refuses to give up is that he gets his ass kicked over and over, but doing so inspires others.
I like that even at the beginning, Strange's arrogance had a different character from Tony Stark's - as the character he's most often compared to. If you asked Stark how he got to be such a great engineer, he wouldn't say study and practice.
I know this video was about the single movie itself, but I really love how these traits of Strange are expanded on in the rest of the MCU. Like one of my favorite scenes is in Infinity War, where he just introduced himself as Dr. Strange to Spider-Man, as he would to anyone else. He doesn’t see himself as some crazy superhero, he just sees himself as the same man who stumbled into a pretty funky career change. Sorcerer Supreme is just another position to add to his resume. Plus, he still has those pretentious asshole traits from when he was a surgeon too. In Multiverse of Madness he catches a lot of flack for presuming that the only way to save the universe from Thanos was the plan that he came up with, and in No Way Home he refuses to take the morally upstanding risk of saving the spider villains in favor of just sending them back to their times and killing them. There’s just so much really powerful continuity with such a morally grey character.
He didn't say it was the only way to win, he said that the only way he saw to do it. He had limited time to figure it out. Also Strange said that they were supposed to die. Altering the timeline was the problem in the first place. Also, all of them were pulled from right before they died, so sending them back fixed is closure only for the Peters. Those villains will still die.
I think Red's point about how humans react to tragedy and problems is only half correct. There are people who would react like strange does, without the ability to recognize compassion without selfish ulterior motives, but there are some who cling to deeply to the "love conquers all" belief. Some people react the opposite and become incredibly clingy, and desperately dependent on those that care about them during personal crisis, and you don't see that too often in movies I think. Where the protagonist has a life changing event and they spiral down a terrible path, but that path is ultra dependence, where they wallow is self pity thinking the only thing that can help them is their friends and loved ones, so they ask/expect the world of them while doing nothing to help themselves. They get mad when their loved ones get sick of it and leave, making them pity themselves more, driving more loved ones away. We usually only see characters like this start off at that low point, but I can't think of many "Hero's journey" style movie where we see them spiral down into that state.
I love the mention of Constantine because there is so much overlap of the two and honestly the psychologically tortured mage who are kinda a dick are just my favorite characters
I noticed when I first saw the movie Strange is 3 variants of the chosen one. 1. Choosy magical artifacts: the levitation cloak came to him because he proved himself worthy of it. 2. Literal chosen one: the ancient one chose him to take on responsibility (followed by rejection of the call) 3. Self chosen one: when he chooses to take up the sorcerer supreme mantel to stop the end of the known world.
@@adambielen8996 I know but doesn't mean that the artifact DIDN'T CHOICE Strange. And Red mentioned in the Chosen 1 video that there could a bunch of artifacts and they could be a bunch of chosen welders. Actively showing the green lantern corp as an example those are literally the same artifact looking for the same criteria in as many people as possible across all worlds.
@@adambielen8996 I think I read somewhere that the VFX artists characterized the Cloak of Levitation by combining the Magic Carpet from Aladdin (to get a basis on a flying piece of fabric that's silent but still emotive and bursting with personality) with that of an experienced horse dealing with an inexperienced rider, and that's usually where conflict arises.
I love that strange was this egotistical asshat that has to learn humility to learn the magic to heal himself But he still doesn't get everything he wants In fact he's now saddled with more responsibility than ever And he's still not the best person, he's learning to be better over time and still makes mistakes
37:57 "It's like we said with the Dormammu fight: it's not about about conquering the bad guy, it's about conquering yourself." This hits even closer home when you find out that Dormammu was voiced by Benedict Cumberbatch.
Even now, I don’t know whether I just read it into the movie or not, but I really enjoyed the undertone off optimistic vs pessimistic nihilism in this movie. Strange “brief specks in an unfeeling universe” vs the Ancient One’s “is not about you”. Nihilism can be a freeing realisation if one approaches it without the encumbrance of ego. Realising that the universe is a place, an event that is occurring rather than a being with expectations of you, where every single one of your faults will be measured and added up in the great tapestry of time. Instead be happy that you’re able to be a part of it, and make the most of the time and experiences still available to you.
Yeah. So often, nihilism is just "everything is meaningless edge edge angst angst" or an excuse for a psycho do do evil things... But if it's approached with humility, wonder, and as the *starting point* and not the endpoint of one's view of the world... Suddenly it becomes about how lucky we all are to be able to experience all these things together, and how *we* are the ones who give meaning to our worlds, and how if the universe is uncaring...Then we owe it to ourselves and each other to care, so we can make this shared experience better for all of us. Instead of making the universe cold and worthless, it actually turns around and makes every moment of it precious.
Just stating this for the record, Strange accusing the Ancient One of using dark magic is 1. Right after he's had to kill one of the mooks, and she offers him the New York Sanctum, making this the rare time he's not in the mood for an ego stroke, and 2. HE'S RIGHT. She has been using the Dark Dimension to extend her lifespan, and she's been hiding it for centuries. Even if she hated doing it, she still did it, and that doesn't make him wrong.
In What If, the Doctor Strange from the show has a similar but very different origin where he loses Christine, but unlike the MCU (Sacred Timeline) Christine just dies, it’s a fixed point that Strange cannot change without breaking his entire universe. Since Christine dying ends with the destruction of a universe, Kang and the TVA decide that Strange needs a different motivator, so in the Sacred Timeline he still loses Christine but it’s because he drives her away by being awful in his misery after losing the use of his hands. It keeps the universe intact and creates Doctor Strange, so it gets to be in Kang’s Sacred Timeline.
Its pretty fucked up for a person life to be considered a "necessary motivator" I kind of understand doctor strange going off the rail when faced with a universe that was fine with cosmically mandated fridging.
@@sillygoosetaur not really the MCU, the TVA is cast as teh 'bad guys'...well, the Loki show has a 'are we the bad guys' type of moment. and its not really the TVA, since their perspective is also heavily manipulated. its specifically the person that manipulated the TVA. and that person is also cast as a bad guy...hence what was said about the 'sacred timeline'.
I was thinking about the “What, like you?” line the other day, because when I saw this in theaters, everyone in the room recoiled at that line like they were the ones being told that. It reminded me of Rian Johnson talking about how the “I am your father” line works so well because it hurts both the character and the audience personally. While Darth Vader’s line is a little more iconic and this line feels a lot more venomous, both serve the purpose to flip a normal trope on its head
So, funny thing I learned from medical staff while my mom was going through some spinal surgeries, most hospitals keep the surgeons away from the patients when they’re recovering because most of them are so bad at treating people kindly that they decrease patient survival when they try to do the whole bedside manner thing.
I can actually kind of get it. Can you imahine trying to empathize with someone if all you can think of is them lying on a table with their guts in the open?
Finally! Someone actually digging into the core philosophical themes of the film because goddamnit this film has something to say and barely anyone talks about it! So often it's brushed off as another mediocre marvel origin story and it can get frustrating. And I'm deeply grateful you acknowledged the fact that he doesn't immediately start getting better after the usual "take down the arrogant hero a few pegs and he immediately sees the folly of his ways and starts getting better." In fact he gets worse; he makes it even more about himself because he's spiralling and panicking and it's all so painfully, unflinchingly human. Human in the way we can't help but inflict our pain on others when we're terrified of losing control, of the idea that change will happen whether we want it to or not. As someone who's been a fan of the film for over 5 years, I can confidently say this is one of the best videos on yt about it wherein you actually engage with the ideas and themes presented. I mean it's not like it's hard, as there aren't many to begin with, but still. This means more than you probably think to someone like me, who was charmed by the film due to it being so theme and philosophy-heavy in the first place. I am *not* a fan of the sequel though. I agree with the Wanda stans that it should've been given the title of Wanda and cancel Strange's role entirely, like in Wandavision, because he's barely relevant to the plot and message of his own film. What a waste. But I digress. Once again, I cannot thank you enough that you actually discuss in-depth about the themes in the film. It makes this weary doctor strange fan feel like they're not crazy after all for liking something most brushed off as boring. Truly, thank you both.
I fundamentally disagree. I think that that MoM was not only a good movie, but the crux of the movie was about Doctor Strange and passing his core lesson onto both Mac and Wanda
i really like how Dr. strange's character arc across the films is more subtle than just "story 1 is done, huge progress, completely good heroic character now!" in DS 1 he needs to learn to set aside his ego. infinity war/other appearences, he's so focused on the big picture, the universe as a whole, but in no way home he needs to see the human aspect of things. finally, in multiverse of madness, his arc is not just about him no longer being in control, but learning to relinquish control to other people and trust them.
I like a theory about this movie that says that Strange became such a great wizard by the end of it because he spent functionally decades or even centuries in the time loop dying over and over again and that helped him develop his skills way further.
A sort of meta aspect to the "it's not about you" line that I particularly loved is that one of the creators of Doctor Strange was Steve Ditko, a diehard objectivist whose views often made it into his comics even when they blatantly conflicted with what his partners were writing. As someone who loathes Ayn Rand, her work, and her half-baked philosophy with every fiber of his being, I found it immensely satisfying to see a character created by a raving objectivist told to stop being a selfish prick and start thinking about other people for once.
Red's name was probably on a scroll somewhere because she was destined to step on Ant-Man thereby giving her superpowers and ultimately dubbing her Red Ant-Woman.
I’m still head cannon that Red and Blue are ancient super powerful beings that just really like literature and history. Current ideas is that Red is Loki and Blue is Thor.
18:15 This is a really good point. One thing that frustrated me about this character is that he focused so much on being a surgeon again that it seems like he forgot that he could be a doctor in other ways that didn't require steady hands. But something tells me that 1) he thinks less of the pediatricians and primary care doctors and the ObGyns (that aren't in the delivery room) so he would be a "lesser doctor" if he decided to open a clinic and 2) he only wants to deal with unconscious people. So maybe being a surgeon is the only way to be a doctor for him. Also, opening a clinic doesn't get him the glory.
There's also something interesting to note about where Strange fights Dormammu that I think is the main reason why his time magickry works as well as it does. Iirc, it's defined that Dormammu is a timeless entity that exists in a timeless void. There is, functionally, no concept of time where Dormammu lives. So since there is no "time", Strange can freely rewind time back to "I've come to bargain" as many times as it takes for Dormammu to give up, and there is never a continuity error and he can keep existing past that point, because he is fundamentally in a location where time has no meaning. So, theoretically, Dormammu and Strange could have had their little song and dance for all of eternity, and nobody would be the wiser for it.
16:39 This is leaving out quite a significant moment for Strange. After the explosion in the chamber that separates him from Wong and Mordo and leaves him stranded in the New York Sanctum, Strange chooses to intervene to save the life of the Sanctum's master despite being horrifically outmatched. He may not be willing to throw in with the good fight when it's presented to him as a concept, but in the moment, he's willing to jump in and try to save a life.
True, I thing that Strange in the beginning is textbook example of jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold. Even his introductory moment has this: his first surgery on screen he treats very much like a game, like he's not saving someone's LIFE, but the moment he hears there is a new patient that no one has any idea how to treat, he jumps in, makes a correct on-spot diagnosis and decides he can do it, so he does. He is very much a glory hound, but he treats actual saving lifes seriously. That is not to say he isn't a nasty person, he very much is, but I wouldn't say he doesn't care about people AT ALL. Also, remember that he was on the spot and operating in the middle of the freaking Chitauri invasion.
Guys, thank you for doing this diatribe. I'm currently coming out of something that to me feels kind of similar to what Strange went through. Thankfully, it was a lot less of a problem, but it still shook me deeply, the idea that I wasn't, in fact, in control. I am a man of faith and believed from the beginning that God wanted me to learn something from this, probably to learn about control, but that didn't really make it any easier. I'd just begun over the last year or so to really push for things that I wanted - I'd spent years on the sidelines, dealing with trauma from an emotionally abusive relationship, and finally felt ready to go, to take control of my life and do the things I'd always wanted to do. Over the course of a year, I went from working tech support and spending all my free times holing up in my room playing video games to finding a wonderful woman to be my girlfriend, working through my emotional issues, and working my way up to my dream job with the Department of State. Now I'm staring down my future as a father, as an IT professional, as a son-in-law, brother-in-law, someone holding a top secret security clearance, potentially a leader in my global church organization, and I'm thrilled. Everything seems to be going my way. Then I get rear-ended in an intersection ten minutes from my home and get a concussion that take some out of work for two weeks, because I stopped for a red light and the other guy didn't see. I know it's not the worst thing, and I'm grateful it wasn't worse. But it really shook me. In a moment, it felt like my idea for my life that I had been building came crashing down, like it was what got hit through that intersection instead of me and my car. If I couldn't predict this, if I couldn't control for this variable, what else is coming? What else will I not be able to prepare for? What else could derail me, and what is the point of continuing to pursue these dreams of mine if a guy not paying attention to my driving for one second could potentially derail them all? Thankfully, the accident didn't derail my life. I fell back on my parents, bless them, and I had a bit of money saved up so between those two things I was able to take work off. We'd already planned a trip to give me more time away from work to heal, and both my current job and my prospective job are fine. Me and my girlfriend are stronger than ever, and I'm still looking forward to all the things I was before. I got out so lucky, because of so many good people around me, so much outside of my control. And I guess that's kind of the point, right? That in the chaotic workings of the cosmos, we can't fathom what is coming even in our own lives. Whether you believe in a higher power or not, that is always true - stuff happens that we can't prepare for. But it is in that chaos that we find not just the unexpected car accidents that take us out of work and shake us and cause us to question our fundamental beliefs, but also the amazing people around us that bolster us up afterwards, the fact that it wasn't so bad, the lessons we learn. Relinquishing control is about trust. Trusting that whether it be God or some fundamental force, that the chaos will give as it will take, and that whatever it gives or takes, we'll be ready enough to meet it. Anyways, thank you guys. I appreciated the opportunity I had to think about this event in my life again, to be reminded that it's okay to not be in control, and that in fact, it's better if I recognize that in much if not all aspects of my life save my own actions, I am usually not in control. I can just do my best with what little I have, and hope and trust that that will be enough.
I, a math nerd, got very excited when Red talked about the thematic appropriateness of the Brownian motion of lightning during their conversation on accepting chaos in the world.
The first Doctor Strange is about learning to trust others. The second is about trusting in yourself (Both America and Strange's character arcs revolve around this) The third could possibly be about Strange teaching someone else to trust others, thus completing his character arc?
The second Dr. Strange was actually all about Strange trusting America to do the right thing instead of trying to stop Wanda by himself, which is what he did in the first movie. Did you get the first and second movie mixed up?
As a person with a love interest who is going through a hard time, I just want to attest that people don't say "at least I have you" because they're not concerned, they say it because they ARE really scared right now and they're trying to comfort themselves and their partner. It turns out to be a very comforting statement. I know that even if my husband and I lose our apartment or have to take out loans just to make it through the month we will find a way through this together. The statement turns my focus away from all the things I'm in danger of losing and towards the most important thing that we won't lose so long as we stay dedicated to it. And if you've read this long, I want you to know that earlier today when we confronted our financial situation it was my husband who comforted me, and I'm so grateful to him.
I remember an older comic where Strange teamed up with Silver Surfer. He was floating cross legged and reading one of the tomes, and practicing a new spell. He does the "I love you" hand sign, says the spell, fired the spell and rocketed his ass into the bookshelf and he's just sitting there stunned, open book on his head and him going "huh"
Thank you for putting that there was no Multiverse of Madness discussion in the description. I love to support creators like you guys by watching the videos when they premiere (I know that helps the algorithm or something) but I also don't want to see spoilers for the movie since I haven't seen it yet.
Actually, they also continue to explore and demonstrate the theme of relinquishing control in Multiverse of Madness. Awesome to reflect on it in hindsight.
So, I watched this when you first put it up... And I re watched it today. You made me cry both times, with a smile on my face. Thanks for all your hard work.
Actually Holy cow. Now that I think about it. Doesn't this make Steven Strange's "this is the only way" in endgame even more poignant? The sorcerer with the power to look through time and previously wanted to do everything *perfectly*, looked through every outcome and had to settle for an imperfect victory sacrificing an ally. Even with the infinity stone. No control. And in the multiverse of madness the guy at the wedding asks him "was it really the only way" and strange solemnly says yeah and said guy proceeds to tell him about how he lost his brother(I think) so here Strange is again, facing the chaotic outside world and failure to save everything. The movie starts with him facing not everything going his way, Christine married off to some other guy. Even in a multiverse with another Christine, he can't get with her cause universes would implode. No control. (Where as Scarlet Witch is grasping for control, has far greater power, and envying strange who learnt the lesson things aren't perfect & is just toppling through the universe as a mess at 100mph) Thinking about it now, the thought baked into these movies is staggering. I really liked the part at the end where, strange replaces the broken watch glass. My boy's finally moved on
I COMPLETELY agree with Red about multiverses. Watching Loki was neat initially but when the pulled the whole "multiverse" thing it made the whole Infinity War / Endgame saga feel like it no longer had any stakes
The stakes are still your life. Even if there are a thousand versions of you across the multiverse, you, yourself, are unique and not even the other versions of you are exactly you. If your timeline collapses, that's still you dying. The stakes haven't changed at all except that they're bigger now. You can destroy whole realities and slaughter untold numbers of people and that's pretty terrible.
I'm not sure I understand it. I mean, the Avengers still saved the universe, right? Even if it was one of an infinite many, they still did that. I'm not quite seeing how the multiverse retroactively invalidates all that hard work
i don't think it eliminates the stakes so much as it shows just how disconnected from any reality the TVA is; to anyone inside the universe, the stakes are incredibly high, but to the TVA, the stakes are incredibly low, because they go around destroying whole universes anyway to maintain what they think is the 'right one'.
@@carmacksanderson3937 Depends how they play it; if they want to they now have whole sacrificial universes to use as “this is serious” fodder, except of course at that point as noted in a Trope Talk, that’s a scope we can’t process and so it can easily undercut the point. Personally, I tend to find the “funhouse mirror” approach tedious in short order. Show me something new and different out there, not just a fanfic/crackfic take on things we’ve already seen
i didnt enjoy it back in the day because i was dragged to see it, but listening to this analysis? it really shifted the perspective i had from back then and now i can critically enjoy it, thank you guys for your wonderful detail diatribes!
32:53 It's interesting looking at that scene through the lens of overcoming fear of failure. In the one sense, of course, Dr. Strange *isn't* failing - he's succeeding at stopping Dormamu from consuming the Earth. But, as you pointed out, Strange is only able to succeed in that task because he's willing to accept the *possibility* of failure. Stopping Dormamu is the equivalent of those surgical cases he always avoided because he didn't *know* if he could save those patients. As the Ancient One tells him, his fear of failure was what held him back from true greatness; by refusing any case he doesn't know he can "win", Strange avoids any failure but also holds himself back from the prospect of even greater success by saving some of those patients that weren't guarantees. It's a nice application of the idea that failure is the primary path toward true growth. Failure is how someone learns and improves, and only by pushing one's own limits (and sometimes inevitably going beyond them) can one achieve their greatest success.
Loved this video, perfectly summed up how I felt about the first movie and how good it was even if Strange isn't my favorite Marvel character--I wasn't interested in most of his stories or comics before the movie and ended up watching it because "oh it's part of the MCU I guess I have to watch it now??" and it ended up being one of my favorites because as you guys said, it works as a standalone movie not only in it's cinematic universe, but also because it's just a damn good movie! You guys bringing up Steve Rogers also made me wonder if we'd ever get a Detail Diatribe about him and his movies (particularly Winter Soldier). IDK if you'd have a lot to talk about regarding him but I love hearing you guys talk about things I like, lol. Great work as always!
Side note: does anyone else get so engrossed in these detail diatribes that they feel like they can literally see the dolls talking until they actually look at the dolls?
I love that the movie’s main motif being time is hinted at very early on. In the opening scene during the surgery, Strange tells the attending Dr to cover his watch, hinting that Strange doesn’t want the distraction of change and time, while explicitly saying that what he wants is not to be distracted by other people and their noise. Strange then breaking his watch in Nepal gives to him exactly that, and he’s distraught by it. He carries the broken watch with him now as a reminder of that desire and it’s consequences
There's an implication I've found so few people discuss when it comes to Strange's dual with Dormammu: Exactly how many times did Dormammu, a TIMELESS BEING, have to kill Doctor Strange before he even just got ANNOYED? How many times did he kill Strange in this loop before he became ANGRY? And a timeless being of unimaginable patience, how long after losing that patience do you think Dormammu, who was certainly capable of it, maybe to turn torture to make the mortal submit? ...and then how long did Strange ensure death and very likely agony until death before finally, the timeless being of unfathomable patience, actually feel like bargaining was now his only logical option? Stephen Strange is so much more of a steel balled badass than the fandom gives him credit for just on the grounds of those implications alone.
honestly - I dare to disagree with your points on Stark. It is not that "he didn't know his weapons kill people". He made all those weapons, because he believed they will be used by "the good guys". But then Yin-Sen tells him, that his company was selling his inventions to terrorists and THAT is what was shocking to him, because he did not know of the trade arrangements of his own company. It is not that "the gun I invented and designed shoots bullets! OMG!!!!", it's more like "how did I never know that my business partner is a psychopat?".
@@williamtimonen6814 yup, he literally did - at the press conference when Stark escaped the 10 rings. Eh - it is not called "Overly Rational Productions", no idea why I got triggered at all lmao
My preference is still for Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2 the themes of family prevalent in almost every character, even in Mantis being a forgotten and mistreated child to her master. I really clicked to the idea of, not only recognizing bad habits, but, actually digging deeper to the roots of them and trying to move past the pain, get over it to become better people. For Quill it's a matter of expectations versus reality For Gamora it's a lack of empathy (yes, outwardly she is the mom of the group, but, even when she's telling off the screw-ups it's just snapping at them about what they did wrong rather than trying to help them not to make the same mistakes again. It's actually very reminiscent of how she treated Nebula, only seeing the challenge in front of her and basically adopting the attitude of "hey, if you didn't want to lose, you should have been a better fighter") Then there's the centerpiece of the whole thing in Rocket and Yondu, who both essentially fear loneliness, but, through their actions, intentionally or not, drive people away. It's, honestly, a film not so much about 'superheroes' as it is about human nature, the mental gymnastics we all do to convince ourselves that we're on the right side of history, or just typically justified in acting like total bastards, but, in the end, they're completely arbitrary reasons that only wind up leading to self-destruction, unless we recognize them for what they are and actually do something to change them.
I've always liked the fictional doctors who get completely *wrecked* when they lose a patient. It's not healthy for real surgeons, but in the realm of fiction, you often need a very quick way to demonstrate that they *care* about their patients and that kind of scene often does an amazing job of showing that. There's an old TV show called M*A*S*H which is about a fictional mobile army hospital in the Korean war, and I think every single doctor on the show has at least one scene where they have a patient that dies or has serious ongoing complications that shows just how they handle that. This ranges from Frank Burns (possibly the most asinine character in TV history) saying "Oh well, he never had a chance anyway, NEXT" to a full episode where Hawkeye goes through a full breakdown, moving out of his quarters and obsessing over his patient's myriad complications every waking moment and both pulling away and driving off everyone who tries to help. He does eventually work out what's wrong because protagonist energy inspires him, but it's still a good episode. (The one who's closest to Dr. Strange in the show is Charles Emerson Winchester III (yes, this is how he introduces himself) who, upon having a patient flatline on him says "How could you do this to me!?" before starting CPR. (He's Frank Burns' replacement, coming in when the show had matured to be a bit more nuanced in how it does it's antagonism.) (The show is far from completely unproblematic, but it's far better than you'd expect from a 70s sitcom, and I grew up watching it. So I'm a bit of a fan.)
What's this?! A wayfarer of the Internet with an Edwin Odesseiron profile picture discussing the television classic that is M*A*S*H? Truly I've stumbled onto the best of all possible timelines. But yeah, Frank is in fact the absolute worst, and as much of an insufferable ass as Charles could be he had a lot more humanizing moments than old Ferretface. You're right that, being a 70s sitcom and all, M*A*S*H has its fair share of problematic elements, but to anyone stumbling upon this comment I cannot recommend it enough. I have still yet to find another TV show that can CONSISTENTLY be both as funny and as emotionally devastating as M*A*S*H is, and sometimes in the same episode! Truly one of the great Classics of television.
Strange's journey with the Ancient One is so much darker in the comic: the Ancient One is dying and Shuma-Gorath is using his mind as a gateway to try to invade Earth's reality. Strange has to *kill* the Ancient One by entering his mind and destroying his ego, his sense of self and identity. Afterward, he swears to never use sorcery again. The Ancient One then appears to him, revealing that, although he thought he would die when Strange destroyed his ego-core, what had actually happened was that the Ancient One no longer had the distinction between Self and Other, allowing him to become One With The Universe. So, by killing the Ancient One, Strange had actually allowed him to become one with Eternity, the embodiment of existence. But in that intervening period, Strange thinks he's killed his mentor, friend, positive father figure, savior, and role model.
In theaters it just kind of felt like a retread of iron man 1 but I can see now it had a lot more going on. Liked how DSMoM expanded on these themes by exploring the consequences of his choices as well as his established need to be in control over the choice in the first place.
What’s great is that Dr Strange is dead center spot on for most neuro surgeons. They almost have to have a God complex to have the sheer nerve to operate on people’s brains…
Hearing this makes wonder how the hell does the "What if Dr. Strange lost his heart instead of his hands?" even work? The man didn't have a heart until the end of the first movie!
If you want a great backstory-in-flashback, Moon Knight. Giving the flashback in the penultimate episode as a DID Alter learns the history of how he came about is an interesting way of doing it.
Interestingly, one of the tentpole motivations of Doctor Strange becoming a doctor in the comics was made canon in MoM - the death of his sister Donna. The exact setting of how she died is slightly changed, but she still drowned. But I can see how once he got to his doctorate, he felt he had succeeded what he owed Donna, and thus became the arrogant asshole we see in the first movie. I feel like all of Stephen Strange's canon appearances have been keeping him solidly on a steady characterisation path. As you say, Stephen wants control. He controls events in IW by looking into future timelines and doing what needs to be done to keep things on the most successful path (by giving up the Time Stone to keep Tony alive), and then telling Tony, in a silent signal, that there is only one path. I NWH, Peter fights against Stephen's need to control, and by doing so shows Stephen that paths other than the one he wants to follow can work. For all that the movie ends with the forgetfulness spell wiping knowledge of Peter Parker from the world, including - presumably - from Strange - I suspect what happens in MoM is a subconscious result of what happened with Peter. MoM shows three alternates of Stephen who are all control freaks (one of whom he was told that by Christine's Variant), and all have come to bad results because of it, but because Stephen wants to do better than the Variant America mentioned, he digs into his ability to give up some of his control and trust America, giving her confidence to gain control of her powers and win the fight.
I will note, my thought that the setting of Donna's death was changed is not as changed as I thought. I thought the ice may conflict with Nebraska, but I looked at a map of the USA properly and found out where Nebraska actually is, and between that and peeps on Discord worked out that they would have frozen water in winter. The place where it is changed is I think the original story (which I got via Geek Culture Explained) it was a summer swim in the local waterhole, where as the scene in MoM where Stephen mentions Donna says it was ice cracking.
"It's not about you" something that Dr. Strange then go on to really take to heart. In all the movies he appears in, he always tell people that he's interacting with, their lives are no more than a speck of dust in the grand cosmos of things, they gotta sacrifice for the greater good.
I foolishly avoided your diatribe videos, because I thought they were too long. (and yet watched hours of consecutive videos 🙄) I realize now how great they are. And it helps that I am working on a big embroidery project and need a video that I can more listen to and occasionally watch when you have a visual aid.
I remember a a theory/someone saying that Strange got too powerful to fast after the movie, but we don’t know how long he was in the realm with Dormomu and “training”
This was fantastic (as most of your stuff is), and Red remembers all these details then says "I should probably watch Doctor Strange again, I've only seen it once" I wish my memory was even half as good as that
You know, for all the dickishness of Strange, I'm glad that he had that one moment midway through that showed there was more to him, the moment that a LOT of MCU characters kind of just blaze through. You know the "When I became a doctor, I swore an oath to do no harm and I have just killed a man! I'm *not* doing that again!" The fact he recognizes that and has a problem with it is actually pretty great, honestly.
I haven’t watched the movie, but having grown up with surgeons, your entire description of pre-character development Strange is literally every surgeon I’ve ever known.
I straight up yelled in excitement when Red mentioned Black Jack, that was one of the first manga I ever read and it stuck with me, so having Red mention it and say she’s also read it, (as far as I know it was not very commonly known even then) was wonderful.
I'm not certain Strange actually remembered the resets when bargaining with Dormamu, since it always makes a point of him checking his wrist AFTER jumping to the planetoid where he talks to Dormamu. While this could be just him nervously making sure the spell is still active and that he's not about to die for real, one way to look at it would be like the tallymarks the Eleventh Doctor and co put on their inner arms whenever they met a Silence, an alien that erased the memories of whoever sees them as soon as they look away. I think the spell was keeping track of the loops, and that (plus Dormamu's later reactions) is how Strange knew to change things up a bit from his original plan You could even stretch it further and link it to watches and how both would tell him how much time has passed at a glance.
I agree, that is how I always pictured it, that he was able to keep things up for theoretically eternity because he never remembered any of it. So he only had to keep earth safe for a minute, and every minute is his first minute doing so. Additionally, it would be weird for the spell to restore his body without deleting his memory. And he is still clearly a relative novice at magic later on, which is unlikely if he spent a small eternity fighting Dormammu, as people seem to be suggesting.
That bachelor's degree insult just made me think "Oh, you know that he's the kind of guy who just coasted through university if that's how he thinks of a bachelor's degree." But overall, thank you for reminding me how good that first Doctor strange movie is. I remember really liking it when it came out.
I think the idea that he wasn't very naturally talented from the get go doesn't hold water. He was asked how it was he was learning so quickly on multiple occasions. He even had a moment where he bragged about having a photographic (Eidetic memory. For all the pedants in that lurk in these comments sections) how smart he was because he got his PHD and MD at the same time. The Grand Master even had worries about him because he was learning so much so quickly. She was concerned he was another Kaecilius. I also don't think this is a bad thing. I never understood why we started to demonize the idea that some people are just naturally good at things. That happens in real life all of the time, and it feels slightly disingenuous to me to try and ignore that in fiction of all places, where much more fantastic things happen all the time. He creates portals by waving his hands for Pete's sake, I think we can reasonably say natural talent isn't all that off the wall.
So you didn’t listen to their justification for why they liked it… literally at all? Maybe actually watch the rest of the two minutes you’re commenting about
Actually, I would think of scarlet witch as one that requires some kind of psychic therapy. Yes, I'm making a psychonauts reference but, looking at her mental state, feels like she may be a 'beyond Maligula' level type of danger. And yes, I'm thinking there are threats that are 'beyond Maligula' levels.
@@CrimsonBlasphemy true. I'm just thinking of mental states & I thought of Psychonauts since I'm both a fan of those series. Not to mention, her mental world would be wandavision or something.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
The real moral of Doctor Strange is: always save before a boss fight.
The DS vs Dormammu fight is basically cuphead vs the devil
that's kinda what fighting the Pokemon League felt like
i just waltz in, get brutally kicked in the ass and before you know it the first champion's already seeing me come in like "heyyyyyyyyyy"
Dormammu is the Dark Souls of Marvel villains
What I took away from this movie was: driving a car is dangerous
(I know he was a bad driver but still)
@@isabrom5295 yup. People don’t realise this, but most travel related deaths are road accidents. Cars are many many times more dangerous than planes.
Someone else pointed this out, so I'll just quote them:
"It wasn't just Stephen's intelligence that won [the confrontation with Dormammu], it was spinning the context of the situation. I highly doubt Dormammu would've even considered the idea of not murdering him forever had he not said "That makes you my prisoner."
Flipping the context of the situation makes Dormammu feel like he's not in control, and a being that huge and all-powerful not being in control is far worse than any fate he could've inflicted on Doc. Taking control away from one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse stings its ego, just like the loss of his hands; hands being a parable for control. Stephen knew the best way to get under Dormammu's metaphysical skin was the same way to get under his own skin, because he knows the failings of ego."
way to make a triple negative
I love this interpretation. Dormammu is defeated by being just as much of an egotist as Strange used to be, and Steven understanding that.
And "control" is where the villain whose name I'd have to rewind the video just to remember, let alone spell comes in. Everyone in the movie EXCEPT the Ancient One is looking for this perfect control. Mordu believes in the rules, in an orderly universe that has rules for a reason and that only by tightly controlling the universe through those rules can an ideal be reached. Hench wants a perfect, timeless, static world, where bad things can't happen because THINGS don't happen independent of the concept of time. Dormammu sees a whole reality to invade and capture and control. Strange has spent his entire adult life with literal control over life and death, tightly managing the odds so that he maintains this ludicrous perfect record as a surgeon. He loses control once and spends years and all of that wealth trying to get it back. Only when he gives up on that idea of perfect control, total control over the outcome, does he get the mental ability to act as Dormammu's mortal, fragile, infinitely killable jailor.
By "ego" do they mean the literal version or the weird metaphysical Chakra Bhuddist one?
@@aradraugfea6755 As far as I remember, even the Ancient One was once looking for control - over death, at least - in her heyday. That was why she sought the dark arts to stay alive longer, and she even mentions how it's hard to let go. The movie takes place at a point where she consciously realizes that total control is fruitless, and even then, we see echoes of that younger, control-hungry self.
Strange basically beat Dormamu by using the ancient method of: “Is this bothering you? Is this bothering you? I’m not touching you!” 🤣
Exactly! This is why Stephen’s awesome. He knows he doesn’t stand a chance of defeating an elderitch monster, he doesn’t care!
At that point, allowing himself to experience that pain, just so the earth could live was more important to him.
It shows a strength of character, yes, but also dhows the courage and nobility that was always dormant in him.
Which honestly the most unique way of defeating a big bad.
Honestly, I like that Strange didn’t beat Dormamu, he got Dormamu to leave out of boredom
@@jordanholt9170 Well that and making him rage quit. lol
He basically Deadpooled him into submission. You can't kill me, and you can't get rid of me, and I'm not going away.
I also like that Strange's not-really love interest who, while not a big character, is also made to contrast him, is an emergency doctor. A doctor who deals with chaos, who can't chose what she gets on her table, who is working in the field of medicine where you literally have the least control. Where you're bound to lose some patients because you can't pick. Strange can get his patients, prepped and ready for him, in the sterile OR.
Christine...can't. She gets the agony, she is there, with patients who are crying, bleeding, hurting.
You just inspired me to make two spellcaster characters
Library Wizard & ER Witch
EW: DO NOT ASK!
LW: ...and that's why we have FOUR BATHROOMS. She had an Okay day, I'm sure...
@@Ramsey276one sounds like a great concept for an urban fantasy novel. Let us know when you publish it
@@pablodonner5213 I would go more for a comic strip…
XD
We’ll be letting you know!
:-P happy doggo
@@Ramsey276one
Could have a whole conflict of societies, with the wizards protecting society on the political level in palaces and the witches protecting communities on a personal level in the villages and cities. And of course they can't stand each other, despite both dedicating their everything to protecting peace and freedom.
@@ALookIntoTheEulenspiegel Hence LW and EW share a house near the city limits. LW leaves the car at the Parking Tower, EW arrives... SOMEHOW. Cartpool? Gatorback? UBERTAUR?
XD
One of my favorite moments in the MCU is Strange being notably upset and disturbed at having taken a life. Even if it was to save his own life and, ultimately, stop the bad guy he still took an oath to do no harm. It was nice to see.
Eh i thought the hypocatic oath chicken was funny
Moreover calling him out on the hypocrisy of that line of thinking was also one of the best moments of moral uncertainty in the MCU.
Wait who did he kill?
@@suisui7481 He killed one of Kaecillius’s followers
Yeah for as much of an ass as he is he still completely took the Hippocratic Oath to a very personal degree and breaking is some hard shit for him apparently. Definitely a nice touch
One thing that didn't get mentioned that struck me was that even as the Ancient One is imparting this last lesson about not being in control, she acknowledges how hard it is to relinquish that control. "You think after all this time, I'd be ready. But look at me. Stretching one moment out into a thousand... just so that I can watch the snow."
I really appreciated that especially, as well! In the comics, the Ancient One was always (in my experience) cast as just the stereotypically wise, saint-like, teacher who shows up to issue judgements upon the flawed protagonists. Having this Ancient One be aware of her own flaws, and selfish, and still unable to not be a tiny bit selfish in the moment of her death, changed EVERYTHING, because it proved that she actually knew what she was talking about rather than just being some transcendent teacher reciting dogma. And by association, that makes her student Strange all the more human as well.
@@sabertoothkim Oh yeah I never realized the teacher teaches student teaches teacher dynamic they had, and it really makes the first movie a treat to rewatch.
@@sabertoothkim Yeah honestly unfortunate that she had to die, I get that it's a key point in Strange's story in the movie but I really liked Swinton in the role and I thought she was written well
and then there's the people that just complain that "woke Disney is replacing all the perfectly good male characters with *gasp* women"
@@impartialthrone2097 The main complaint that I saw was actually whitewashing, but there's no way that Disney was going to take a stance on Tibet or even mention it if possible. So you're either changing the race (to white, because this is still Hollywood) or changing the country. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I do worry that multiverses will fall into the same pitfall as zombies. Everyone jumps on to it because it can be a very effective narrative if executed well, but everyone ends up sick and tired of it because too many botch it up.
Considering the woke, contrived dumpster fire that was multiverse of madness, I have zero hope for anything marvel makes next.
One massive edit because you soy-cucks like to nit-pick like diseased chimps: (WARNING: read before replying)
For context; I don't just spew drinkers views. (maybe go read the rest of the comments before you drag yourself into this debate.)
I used my own arguments; and his points happen to be very similar to mine; which is why I said to go watch him because our views are very similar.
That's why I sourced his video.
Also Nerdrotic has similar points too; very good points.
So If I'm "copying Drinker", then I guess Nerdrotic copies drinker too; also his review came out a few day after drinkers, so its in theory possible, according to your "standards".
Speaking of reviewers; go watch The Little Platoon if you want a very in depth review; he goes VERY deep into it; and also makes similar points to Drinker and Nerdrotic.
Also; the fact your raging, have resorted to calling me names, false reported me as spam and spew flat out false claims just means I'm right; your raging because you have no counter argument.
What's even funnier is how you whine and complain; saying I have none, then go dead silent when I pull up.
Seriously, grow up.
Also; if anyone replies to this and still whines like a dying chimp I'm just going to ignore your goofy ass; because you either:
1. Ignored the reply warning.
2. Can't read.
3. Have room temperature IQ.
4. Are a trained chimpanzee that somehow has internet access.
5. Flat out ignored the warning and my statements; just to have something to whine about.
6. Are a troll / brainlet with nothing better to do.
7. Full of sheer arrogance.
8. Are a libtard.
TLDR:
Jokes on you; there is no tldr, learn to read.
DON'T JINX IT!
@@FatherAndrew-Scarlet-Priest woke? Why are people calling every movie they don't like "woke". Is it because one of the main characters isn't white? Seriously it's not even political it's just diverse. When will people make real criticism again.
@@FatherAndrew-Scarlet-Priest anyone who unironically uses “woke” doesn’t have a real criticism of the thing in question.
Edit: Came back to see that Andrew deleted his comment in shame.
F
@@biblebot3947 Nice attempt to disarm my argument; go watch "The Critical Drinker".
I also want to point out that the insult "bachelor's degree" thrown at the PT, *probably isn't even accurate*. Physical therapists generally have graduate degrees in order to do their work. Which means he's just decided the PT is lesser than him, and pulls whatever education-based insult out that is easiest.
Very true!! My mom and one of my best friends went through PT school, it's years of nonstop school with no vacations and a brutal curriculum. It's not brain surgery, but it takes an overwhelming amount of effort, intelligence, patience, and compassion to do.
It's a doctorate degree. A PTA is a bachelor's degree
As a Physical Therapist, I’m not even surprised by the depiction that a cowboy surgeon doesn’t realize we get Doctorate degrees in the US.
@@CanonKathrynFun fact' it's currently a doctorate degree in the US, but it hasn't always been. I know a couple of near-retirement PTs with "just" a bachelor's.
All that education and they still had me doing elementary school stretches.
Little interesting note.
When Steve Ditko created Doctor Strange and sent in his illustrations for the magic he casts.
Sevreal people in Marvel honestly thought he was on drugs and would frequently visit him at his home to make sure he was doing alright.
Turns out he *wasn't* doing alright, but drugs weren't the problem
@@VicEntity what was?
@@animationdude9 he was a nut
@@animationdude9 I assume they are referring to Ditko being an isolationist stuck in his views after the comic world changed?
He didn't handle that very well he was an old comic creator that was stuck in the view of kids can only be sidekicks, morality is black and white and he couldn't deal with that.
He went to DC after leaving Marvel where he could stay in that mindset for longer but still not forever.
Then he became an indie publisher of his own work until he died at 90 of a heart attack.
@@animationdude9 Dude reads an Ayn Rand article in a porn magazine *once* and decides to make it his whole personality.
Something that is scary of that final Dormmamu scene is that we'll never know for how long Strange and Dormmamu were trapped in the loop. It easly could've been a couple minutes or straight up centuries, even if it was a couple minutes Strange was still willingly and voluntarily accepting death multiple times. Each time the loop started he could've just fled, but he didn't, he died extremely painfully over and over to save the world, what a badass.
As heroic and grand as Tony Stark's death was and how beautifully it was executed. I still felt that Strange also made such a great gamble and sacrifice himself. What if Dormamu somehow broke the loop or had the ability to control his mind or Strange actually lost his mind during the loop. Yet still, no one will ever know what he did. Especially that dumb sorcerer that kept saying "The bill is due" or something like that
@@ndricimhalili9793 "Dormamu, I've come to bargain!"
@@Ilias2 Dormmy, I’M BACK!
Considering how much his skill in magic improved after that encounter, I can safely say it was a very long time.
I have always assumed that he died 14000605 times to Dormammu. I know his vision of possibilities might not be tied in any way to this duel but it somehow felt right.
Even if he always died after a few seconds or minutes... that would be months of constant suffering and combat. If sanity of anyone could srvuve such an ordeal then they would get really good at fighting; whatever their original experience was.
One scene from the movie that I still find particularly important is when he kills his attackers. Unlike most "normal" people in these movies he is visibly upset. The thought of taking a life is upsetting to his core. His first reaction is to leave the monastery and be done with sorcery. It is rare to see a truly human reaction to death in a comicbook movie and I think it does a lot to show that even though Strange is an @$$hole at his core he is still a caring human being.
It's also especially important because he defines himself as a doctor. Even upon becoming a sorcerer he still refers to himself as a doctor. And of course, a defining feature of being a doctor is to do no harm. Like losing the Ancient One, this to him is a failure as a doctor, another blow to his ego, just one that pushes him in the opposite direction that the Ancient One's death does.
That's also the one time the Ancient One does anything resembling ego stroking, when she offers him the New York Sanctum. She even suggests the title of "Master Strange", which he angrily responds with "It's /Doctor/." Followed by him stating clearly that even if he's an arrogant dickhead, First Do No Harm still means something to him.
This could be such a good move to make a movie about "The Oath" storyline, which is all about the hypocratic oath basically. But alas
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life."
- Jean-Luc Picard
what episode?
@@sadnessofwildgoats I can't remember the number, but it's the one with the "master tactician" and there's supposed to be a simulated battle between the Enterprise and another much weaker Federation ship.
Data is convinced to fight the guy in a strange electronic game and loses, and suddenly feels like he can't be trusted to make the right decisions.
Picard had to convince him that losing doesn't always equal failure.
Decided to look it up;
"Peak Performance"
Season 2; Episode 21
People forget the counterpoint to this. It's possible to commit every mistake and win. That's also life.
@@RisingAuroranah... thats only if youre rich.
If your Ancient one is bald, powerful, filled with infinite chill and imparting the lesson that you cannot control the world before fading away gracefully into death.
Then that's not the ancient one...
That's Master Oogway.
Detail Diatribe on Kung Fu Panda???
@@EternityKingdomsHeadHoncho I WANT
"You must let go of the illusion of control."
There is also the fact that the “Bargaining” scene also works as a ridiculous power up for him too. He was still quite a novice at magic when he went in, but he had a constant eternity of combat training against a being he could never defeat. They also illustrate this with the scenes where he dies, you can see him slowly becoming more and more competent at dealing with Dormamu’s attacks.
Right? The scenes were fast, but it showed him surviving for longer periods of time, andeven showed him *deflecting and withstanding attacks.* That's pretty insane for a normal dude, but... who knows how long it acrually took for him to get to that point.
I don't know if it's just me but I really like that Strange and Christine don't end the film getting together or even as established friends again, it's clear both of them still care about the other, but his earlier shitty treatment isn't just forgotten either for the sake of the straight romance and I personally really appreciated that as someone with frankly no interest in watching another somewhat bland couple make out at the end of every film
It comes to a full head in Multiverse of Madness. And in what is a very poorly put together and tonally inconsistent film, that particular arc is on that is actually done well.
35:28 something else i really like is when Dormamu tells Strange "You can't win" and Strange answers "Yes, but I can fail, again and again for all eternity". Really highlights the growth in his character from being someone who only took cases that he knew he could succeed at so he could get praise to someone willing to sacrifice himself and fail over and over for no recognition at all.
also in terms of visuals the whole mirror dimension sequence was sick
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that Strange doesn't just suddenly become an amazing magic user after The Ancient Ones death. He's still just as skilled as before, if maybe a little better at using what he knows due to accepting the risk of failure. Dr. Strange only becomes the amazingly skilled Sorceror Supreme we see in other movies during his struggle against Dormammu, gradually becoming better every loop. His actions not only represent his newfound acceptance of failure, but that because he accepts failure he can now learn from it. By accepting the fact he can fail Strange is able to master himself and his powers to a degree he never could without doing so.
I imagine he spent a very long time in the loops to get as strong as he is when he leaves.
That makes me curious as to how strong he could've become, if he had stayed in there longer. If Dormammu hadn't accepted the bargain, would he have eventually just gotten powerful enough to defeat him on his own?
@@SamJNE122 Well, he probably could still do that at the time, but I think him learning can be seen as something to keep him sane while dying over and over again.
Wait is this theory canon? 'Cause watching it at the time I made no assumption he was actually even aware of all the time spent in the loop. Dormammu was only aware of it because he's supposed to be "beyond time," that's why it worked. And that's the risk of using a Time Loop like that, you'll get stuck in it forever because you have no idea you're stuck in it and should hit the cancel button!
And I'm not sure how much training you're going to get being killed every 6 seconds.
@@HydraulicDesign he seemed aware to me. And it would be pretty bullshit from a writer's standpoint for him to not be. Since it's a heroic act and Dormamu himself said that Strange would suffer and Strange replies with "Pain's an old friend" (which is a pretty badass line imo)
Anyone: Are you happy, Stephen?
Strange: Irrelevant, next question
Strange: If I don't answer, I don't know it myself.
@@Aregulargameplayer avoid your problems and they dont exist!
Before magic, Strange saw things as about him.
Afterwards, Strange saw things as a grand calculus, needing to put the big picture before himself and others.
Now with No Way Home and Multiverse he's finally learned it's not about him or the grand calculus, it's about helping when needed.
THAT is a character arc.
Well said!
@@cewla3348 Well, after Spiderman, yes.
I think the problem with that is the "when needed" part. If you have powers like that you are *always* needed. You basically have to deliberately ignore people you could help all the time.
Yes, with the caveat that those last two movies didn't give him much of an arc. Certainly not a good one, at any rate.
It's also interesting to compare him with Wanda in MoM. Like him, Wanda lost something she thought was vital to her happiness and purpose, and obsessively chased after it, heedless of the damage she was doing to other people. You also get a hint of Strange's potential to go the same way when you see the Strange of the collapsed dimension and his obsessive wish to possess Christine. But in the end, he's able to accept that sometimes you just have to accept what you've lost and keep moving forwards, rather than being stuck pining for it.
There’s another part about the slow motion scene that I’d like to talk about. The slowed down helicopter in the air. Helicopters are known for their superb control in the air, being able to shift just a few feet in one direction and being able to stay level, but in this scene it’s being blown by the wind, fighting against the storm. I think that helicopter is also symbolic of strange and the idea of control. In the storm of chaos and fate, we have that little portion of the sky we can control. We cannot change the weather, we cannot stop the lightning or snow, which are likely symbolic of all the problems fate throws at us, but we can still work through the challenges of fate. We may have to make course corrections and things may get a little shaky, but if we do it right we can still safely get to our desired destination despite all the challenges that are thrown at us.
Kobe…
That is a beautiful metaphor.
Also if a helicopter gets really more than just little bit on its side, show's over - and they glide like a rock. They're stable until they're NOT.
I appreciate how Red isn’t afraid to be optimistic. I feel like many wannabe intellectuals believe that being negative and nihilistic is the true way to view the world and anything positive isn’t real/is completely stupid. Red’s viewpoints are refreshing
not intellectuals but edgy 21st century young adults (and some older people). Actual intellectuals dont turn up edgy and bitter about fate and faith, they just accept the differences in philosophy and tolerates diversity. These edgelords on the other hand think they know better and shun the "sheep" of people who doesnt share their "enlightened" mind. which is a very fitting topic to discuss on a comment section for a movie that exemplifies exactly that! You're not THE ENLIGHTENED ONE in a sea of sheeps, you're part of the system and needs to learn tolerance towards it.
It's really interesting that you attribute this to Red in this duo video.
I like that you make the point about easy nihilism as an excuse not to try because one of the things that struck me the most about the Come To Bargain scene is that Strange *tries*, every loop. He knows he'll die, he knows that what's coming is an endless loop of pain and failure, but he always tries to block and stop what's coming for him, always tries to fight back each time. Which is so so much harder than just taking no action and mutely accepting helplessness. He finally learns the lesson that even if success is not guaranteed that doesn't mean he shouldn't put real effort into things that are worthwhile
if anything you could argue that's how strange kpet himself focused every time he died
sure, he is still going to die, but might as well make the most of the minutes before that and get skilled at using the spells he knows
he also managed to get a LITTLE further each time. each time he died, he held out just a little longer than the last. so the thing that struck me as existentially scary is that he genuinely was LEARNING "How to defeat Dormammu"- or at least, "How to SURVIVE Dormammu". (not that it would've made a HUGE difference given the fact that Dormammu is orders of magnitudes more powerful than Strange was, and likely than Strange could ever actually BE, but i still found it kinda fascinating)
@@raelkvasiir9704 like Dead Cells!
One part of this story that I love is when in End Game the Ancient One handed over the stone after Banner told her Dr. Strange handed it over to Thanos. She had ABSOLUTE faith in who Strange was and who he’d become. She couldn’t see past her death but the idea that Stephen had a plan was enough for her to give away the stone to Banner risking destruction of her own reality. She gave away the stone the same way he did knowing her student was correct in whatever action he took.
I think part of it was that she knew what he was going to have to face just after she died. She might not have been able to divine the outcome, but she was certainly smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and realize, "Oh, reality's still extant for Thanos to be a problem in, Strange must have gotten his head out of his ass enough to deal with Dormammu" when talking with someone who traveled back in time from significantly after her death. She already knew he had the potential for it, but she inferred that he did actually manage to reach the point where he *could* come up with the kind of plan that would actually work.
Like you mentioned with the New York Sanctum fight, despite all he's learned and likely being a faster student than most, he's still outclassed by those who've been at it a lot longer than he has. He only gets through as I recall by the skin of his teeth, a little luck, a little help (from the flaying cape), and a few moments of quick thinking.
Another important moment leading up to the discussed scene is when Strange is in the surgery room, and sees that he can't keep his hands steady, rather than try to fight through it, he relinquishes some of that control, with little hesitation tells one of his colleagues that they'll have to do it, accepting that he is not in a position to save her life as much as he wants to, whereas at the beginning of the movie he would never even consider such even if there was a safer option. That moment, to me, was a huge pivot point for him in addition to the scene being discussed. This surgery isn't just a mark on his record, he has personal stakes in it, something he's never really had before.
And yes, I love Stranges line with Dormamu tells Strange that he can't succeed: "No, but I can fail. Over, and over, and over. Making you, my prisoner."
"We are all little specks in an uncaring universe that is out to get me"
That's a good way of disproving one's philosophy.
Oohhh, I didn't realize until you put it that way, that that philosophy is SO self-centered, while pretending to be not. I understand now!
more than anything, if it is out to get anyone then it HAS to care or else it would do nothing
I'm surprised that it wasn't mentioned how someone who fears failure would be attracted to Time Magic in the first place. What better avenue to pursue than one that lets you undo failures? That's another lesson that he learns in The Scene: an acknowledged Master of Time magic, as the Sorcerer Supreme guards the Eye of Agamotto, cannot prevent even her own death, let alone others.
I think you'll like the themes of Multiverse a bit, and a lot of what you talk about resonates there.
I agree
I think part of it is that he can’t even deal with that amount of failure. Because even if he could go back and undo it, he still would have known that he failed in some way. And before he learns his lesson and accepts failure over and over again, even that small bit of failure, even when reversed, would be something his ego could not handle.
Can we all appreciate the fact that this movie basically ends up summing up to Dr. Strange beating a cosmic horror by basically just annoying it into submission?
Seriously, I wanna see a cut of the movie where every time Strange shows up, he's on another verse of "I know a song that gets on everybody's nerves"
@@TacComControl how did you manage to get that song stuck in my head with one line in a pure text format?!
I like the practical symbol of the lightning bolt as it goes in a million directions until it finds the end point and it solidifies into one line. Not only can we not control life and death, we can't control that final line burned into people's eyes that is our legacy. We reach out our lives in a thousand directions but ultimately we will hit the ground and in a bright and instant flash the path to that point is made clear for solemn reflection. Kind of beautiful, and some joy can be found in ot, but it has an undeniable sadness to it.
[APPLAUSE]
Damn, that is good introspective stuff and now I'm staring up at the ceiling, in contemplation. XD
@@AegixDrakan It's not that deep. It's, like, the kind of thing a highschooler would find profound.
@@minutemansam1214 Are you insulting highschoolers?
@@minutemansam1214 it's not a matter of "deepness", it's a matter of how well that analogy fits into what you can describe life to be. Like near perfect fit
Cumberbatch was the perfect actor for how they ended up writing Dr. Strange's character, the behavioral and emotional nuance is excecated so well, and you guys do a great job of highlighting that!
That was Cumberbatch!?!?!
I agree. I was thrilled when he was cast. They didn’t even need to alter his appearance that much.
To be fair about Ant-Man, it wasn't that Scott was better than Hope, it's that Scott was more *expendable* than Hope, if I"m remembering correctly
In-universe, yes. From the perspective of the writers, though...
@@DragonbIaze052Well TBF I don't think Hope is even a character in the comics lol. Hank Pym and Janet are the Antman/Wasp and Scott later becomes Antman while Cassie is a hero as well. If they'd made her the protagonist (despite it making more sense in the narrative they built, her being trained while he's a newbie), the fan babies would've been up in arms lol.
@@MikeCoxmaul Hope IS a character in the comics since at least 1999, but only ever in alternate futures. Given how old they made Hank and Janet, I feel like one of these stories may have contributed to Hope being in the MCU.
A main-timeline version named Nadia (Russian word for hope) was introduced the year after the movie version. She's a teenaged Black Widow-Wasp hybrid who's a massive dork, a total nerd, and also ace. She's a really fun character. I definitely recommend reading her debut issues in All-New All-Different Avengers, then her solo comic, Unstoppable Wasp.
Steve Rogers is an admirable everyman. He's someone with a heroic soul trapped in a body that can't effectively express the courage, tenacity, and other good qualities he possesses. However:
1. Tony Stark was always Inventive and Successful . . . and Alcoholic and an Emotionally Broken Womanizing, Flippant Jerk. Until his hero-turn where he understands commitment and self-sacrifice.
2. Thor was always Loyal and Prince of Asgard . . . and Arrogant and Impulsive and Entitled. Until his hero-turn where he understands humility and mortality.
Stephen Strange starts out heroic, in the sense that he's a surgeon who saves hundreds of lives, and becomes self-centered, seemingly arrogant, and insular because of his fear of failure (as the Ancient One points out). In the comics, this is rooted in the same event that set him on the road to becoming a doctor: *his sister drowns while at a local swimming hole, and he's unable to save her.* Thus, a commitment to saving lives, tied up in a fear of trying to and failing, Hence the avoiding of cases with no hope of life-changing success (the elderly patient -- he can save her from her condition, but she's likely to die either from the stress of the surgery or another cause in the near future, and he'd feel attached and responsible, so he doesn't want to touch the case).
Strange isn't an admirable everyman. He's an exceptional man, who should be exceptionally admirable, but who is too twisted up in his own inner demons to either believe he *really* deserves the accolades (he's more than a bit dismissive of the award dinner he's expected to attend) or to actually embrace his full potential (you see a hint of it when Dr. Palmer pulls him out of his shell: an amazing diagnosis, formulation of a surgical plan, and execution of a very delicate surgery, based on a tiny shred of a detail . . . so much more than cherry-picking pre-diagnosed surgeries that are lobbed over the plate so he can knock them out of the park). Strange has the talent to be a world-class diagnostician even if he had no hands at all . . . and a complete inability to accept any limitation that might lead to a failure that he's somehow responsible for. Either he controls every aspect of every case he chooses to involve himself in, to eliminate any chance of failing to save someone, or he can't bring himself to do it.
Strange's watch collection is a nod to that need, as well. He wasn't able to save his sister because he couldn't reach her in time. Even though he knew all the right things to do, it was just too late to help her, and he couldn't control that factor. Hence the need to track time, to prioritize his time, to see himself as always on the precipice of failing, to see himself as unworthy of love, to think if he mars his perfect record (if anyone knows he's failed) everyone will realize what he believes about himself: that he's unworthy, that he can't do it, can't measure up, is less than he should be. The Ancient One calls him out on that in the lightning scene: the fact that he's never been driven by a desire to succeed, but by a fear of failing.
That's the fatal flaw we see in Strange Supreme in the What If episode: he opens up to Dr. Palmer, and loses her, and cannot accept the idea that there can be a situation in which a life is important to him and he is unable to save that life. No matter the cost, he can't accept the idea of allowing that kind of pain to exist in his life again.
Honestly my favorite part of Dr. Strange is when he's driving before the crash, I turned to my dad and said "don't text and drive" and RIGHT THEN he crashed. Perfect.
They didn't screw around with that crash either. Really freaking violent.
I know Dr. Strange really well and I was expecting it, and I still screamed out loud. And the accident happens because he’s really fucking arrogant, with the flashy car and the high speed and planning more self-aggrandizement. And right before it, he actually accelerates. Yikes.
My favourite scene in Doctor Strange was the 'teach me!' scene. When he is shown proof that the world is so much more than what he already knows and is so confident about he casts ego aside (for that moment) and goes to learn more.
26:04 “It’s amazing how beautiful even the smallest of things can be when you look at them gratefully instead of expectedly or deservedly.” Blue… that is a beautiful quote. Thank you
Dr Strange in the comics is even more unheroic than movie Strange. Strange in the comics is the greatest surgeon ever, but he would only take on patients that could afford him. Anyone that couldn’t afford him, he didn’t care about them and wouldn’t take them on.
huh, good to know.
They still went a route that preserves the character which I like - it's technically different, but fundamentally the same.
He ain't special, thats just the american healthcare system
They really should have used that version of Strange. Movie Strange was unheroic but he was still fundamentally a good person, and it was a big loss to not show that change.
@@renatocorvaro6924 No, they used the right version of Strange.
I was hesitant to watch because I haven't been able to see Multiverse of Madness (theatres are far away, okay?), so I really appreciate how you clarify you're not talking about it very quickly. Then I looked at the length of this video and realized I don't have the time to watch it right now. Definitely will when I can, though. Love these Detail Diatribes!
This comment is violently relatable
@in desperate need of a scotch How is that your response to comments literally saying how they don’t want spoilers?
@in desperate need of a scotch Hard disagree. Multiverse of Madness absolutely exemplifies an important part of Strange's character and improves upon him in a significant way by the end of the film.
Don't watch multiverse of madness; its sucks.
Its full of woke garbage, character assassination, contrivances and various other dog shit.
This movie single headedly ruined dr strange as a character, just to keep spewing "The message".
@@FatherAndrew-Scarlet-Priest thanks, I will be sure to watch it
In most superpower stories, magic empowers a humble protagonist; in Dr Strange, magic humbles a proud protagonist.
One bit you guys kind of skipped over is that, when the ancient one was going in for surgery, Strange was prepping to go in as the surgeon, but then stepped aside to let the other doctor do it because he recognised that it wasn’t something he would be able to do.
for me the "i come to bargain" scene also has the theme of "you dont have to be stronger in power than your enemies. You just have to be more determined". and a lot of other superhero movies try to be like "he won cause he never gave up" but it always seemed meaningless, because in the end they win by being more powerful. like captain america, they try so often to reframe it as if what makes him a hero is his persistence and hope, but still he defeats his enemies by being physically stronger than them. but doctor strange pulled through with it. strange doesnt defeat dormammu, he is not stronger than dormammu. he is just annoying, he literally makes his dickhead-ness we all hated in the beginning the thing that saves the world.
Steve wasn't stronger than the entire Hydra battalion he was captured by. He saw unbeatable odds, refused to admit defeat, and came up with a plan to overcome the odds.
He wasn't stronger than the Winter Soldier, but he refused to give up. He let himself get beaten into unconsciousness and nearly die because he refused to give up hope that Bucky was still in there.
Steve wasn't stronger than Iron Man, but he still did everything he could to stand up for what he believed was right and worked to reach an ending where nobody had to die.
He wasn't even close to being as strong as Thanos, even when working with both Thor and Iron Man. After all three of them were defeated together, Steve got back up, stared his death in the face, and refused to give up. If it wasn't for everybody else showing up, he would have been killed with minimal effort at that point.
In only one of those four situations did he actually win the physical fight, and it's also a fight he didn't want to happen in the first place AND he lost the fight he was actually trying to win (convincing Tony he's wrong). The thing about Captain America never giving up isn't that it's how he wins a fight, because it never has been. Never giving up is part of what makes him a hero because he will always believe in and fight for a better future. He genuinely believes in other people and does everything he can to help them.
The only thing that happens to him personally when he refuses to give up is that he gets his ass kicked over and over, but doing so inspires others.
I like that even at the beginning, Strange's arrogance had a different character from Tony Stark's - as the character he's most often compared to. If you asked Stark how he got to be such a great engineer, he wouldn't say study and practice.
I know this video was about the single movie itself, but I really love how these traits of Strange are expanded on in the rest of the MCU. Like one of my favorite scenes is in Infinity War, where he just introduced himself as Dr. Strange to Spider-Man, as he would to anyone else. He doesn’t see himself as some crazy superhero, he just sees himself as the same man who stumbled into a pretty funky career change. Sorcerer Supreme is just another position to add to his resume. Plus, he still has those pretentious asshole traits from when he was a surgeon too. In Multiverse of Madness he catches a lot of flack for presuming that the only way to save the universe from Thanos was the plan that he came up with, and in No Way Home he refuses to take the morally upstanding risk of saving the spider villains in favor of just sending them back to their times and killing them. There’s just so much really powerful continuity with such a morally grey character.
He didn't say it was the only way to win, he said that the only way he saw to do it. He had limited time to figure it out. Also Strange said that they were supposed to die. Altering the timeline was the problem in the first place. Also, all of them were pulled from right before they died, so sending them back fixed is closure only for the Peters. Those villains will still die.
I think Red's point about how humans react to tragedy and problems is only half correct. There are people who would react like strange does, without the ability to recognize compassion without selfish ulterior motives, but there are some who cling to deeply to the "love conquers all" belief. Some people react the opposite and become incredibly clingy, and desperately dependent on those that care about them during personal crisis, and you don't see that too often in movies I think. Where the protagonist has a life changing event and they spiral down a terrible path, but that path is ultra dependence, where they wallow is self pity thinking the only thing that can help them is their friends and loved ones, so they ask/expect the world of them while doing nothing to help themselves. They get mad when their loved ones get sick of it and leave, making them pity themselves more, driving more loved ones away.
We usually only see characters like this start off at that low point, but I can't think of many "Hero's journey" style movie where we see them spiral down into that state.
I love the mention of Constantine because there is so much overlap of the two and honestly the psychologically tortured mage who are kinda a dick are just my favorite characters
You ever read the Dresden files?
I noticed when I first saw the movie Strange is 3 variants of the chosen one.
1. Choosy magical artifacts: the levitation cloak came to him because he proved himself worthy of it.
2. Literal chosen one: the ancient one chose him to take on responsibility (followed by rejection of the call)
3. Self chosen one: when he chooses to take up the sorcerer supreme mantel to stop the end of the known world.
To be fair, with the magical artifact it was established that all of them pick their users.
@@adambielen8996 I know but doesn't mean that the artifact DIDN'T CHOICE Strange.
And Red mentioned in the Chosen 1 video that there could a bunch of artifacts and they could be a bunch of chosen welders.
Actively showing the green lantern corp as an example those are literally the same artifact looking for the same criteria in as many people as possible across all worlds.
@@HestiaVesta fair enough
@@adambielen8996 if you could choice or make a magical artifact what would you choice?
@@adambielen8996 I think I read somewhere that the VFX artists characterized the Cloak of Levitation by combining the Magic Carpet from Aladdin (to get a basis on a flying piece of fabric that's silent but still emotive and bursting with personality) with that of an experienced horse dealing with an inexperienced rider, and that's usually where conflict arises.
I love that strange was this egotistical asshat that has to learn humility to learn the magic to heal himself
But he still doesn't get everything he wants
In fact he's now saddled with more responsibility than ever
And he's still not the best person, he's learning to be better over time and still makes mistakes
Character development doesn’t happen all at once.
Is that a Spiderman reference
@@emanuelrojas2 exactly
@@thatguy3549 no?
37:57 "It's like we said with the Dormammu fight: it's not about about conquering the bad guy, it's about conquering yourself."
This hits even closer home when you find out that Dormammu was voiced by Benedict Cumberbatch.
Even now, I don’t know whether I just read it into the movie or not, but I really enjoyed the undertone off optimistic vs pessimistic nihilism in this movie. Strange “brief specks in an unfeeling universe” vs the Ancient One’s “is not about you”. Nihilism can be a freeing realisation if one approaches it without the encumbrance of ego. Realising that the universe is a place, an event that is occurring rather than a being with expectations of you, where every single one of your faults will be measured and added up in the great tapestry of time.
Instead be happy that you’re able to be a part of it, and make the most of the time and experiences still available to you.
Yeah. So often, nihilism is just "everything is meaningless edge edge angst angst" or an excuse for a psycho do do evil things...
But if it's approached with humility, wonder, and as the *starting point* and not the endpoint of one's view of the world... Suddenly it becomes about how lucky we all are to be able to experience all these things together, and how *we* are the ones who give meaning to our worlds, and how if the universe is uncaring...Then we owe it to ourselves and each other to care, so we can make this shared experience better for all of us.
Instead of making the universe cold and worthless, it actually turns around and makes every moment of it precious.
Just stating this for the record, Strange accusing the Ancient One of using dark magic is 1. Right after he's had to kill one of the mooks, and she offers him the New York Sanctum, making this the rare time he's not in the mood for an ego stroke, and 2. HE'S RIGHT. She has been using the Dark Dimension to extend her lifespan, and she's been hiding it for centuries. Even if she hated doing it, she still did it, and that doesn't make him wrong.
In What If, the Doctor Strange from the show has a similar but very different origin where he loses Christine, but unlike the MCU (Sacred Timeline) Christine just dies, it’s a fixed point that Strange cannot change without breaking his entire universe. Since Christine dying ends with the destruction of a universe, Kang and the TVA decide that Strange needs a different motivator, so in the Sacred Timeline he still loses Christine but it’s because he drives her away by being awful in his misery after losing the use of his hands. It keeps the universe intact and creates Doctor Strange, so it gets to be in Kang’s Sacred Timeline.
Its pretty fucked up for a person life to be considered a "necessary motivator" I kind of understand doctor strange going off the rail when faced with a universe that was fine with cosmically mandated fridging.
Do you mean Kang the Conqueror?
@@blackbloom8552 yeah the mcu is very morally.. well strange
@@blackbloom8552 That's just the plot of Steins Gate! Good episode tho. I liked it.
@@sillygoosetaur not really the MCU, the TVA is cast as teh 'bad guys'...well, the Loki show has a 'are we the bad guys' type of moment. and its not really the TVA, since their perspective is also heavily manipulated. its specifically the person that manipulated the TVA. and that person is also cast as a bad guy...hence what was said about the 'sacred timeline'.
I was thinking about the “What, like you?” line the other day, because when I saw this in theaters, everyone in the room recoiled at that line like they were the ones being told that. It reminded me of Rian Johnson talking about how the “I am your father” line works so well because it hurts both the character and the audience personally. While Darth Vader’s line is a little more iconic and this line feels a lot more venomous, both serve the purpose to flip a normal trope on its head
So, funny thing I learned from medical staff while my mom was going through some spinal surgeries, most hospitals keep the surgeons away from the patients when they’re recovering because most of them are so bad at treating people kindly that they decrease patient survival when they try to do the whole bedside manner thing.
Oof.
I can actually kind of get it. Can you imahine trying to empathize with someone if all you can think of is them lying on a table with their guts in the open?
Finally! Someone actually digging into the core philosophical themes of the film because goddamnit this film has something to say and barely anyone talks about it! So often it's brushed off as another mediocre marvel origin story and it can get frustrating. And I'm deeply grateful you acknowledged the fact that he doesn't immediately start getting better after the usual "take down the arrogant hero a few pegs and he immediately sees the folly of his ways and starts getting better." In fact he gets worse; he makes it even more about himself because he's spiralling and panicking and it's all so painfully, unflinchingly human. Human in the way we can't help but inflict our pain on others when we're terrified of losing control, of the idea that change will happen whether we want it to or not.
As someone who's been a fan of the film for over 5 years, I can confidently say this is one of the best videos on yt about it wherein you actually engage with the ideas and themes presented. I mean it's not like it's hard, as there aren't many to begin with, but still. This means more than you probably think to someone like me, who was charmed by the film due to it being so theme and philosophy-heavy in the first place.
I am *not* a fan of the sequel though. I agree with the Wanda stans that it should've been given the title of Wanda and cancel Strange's role entirely, like in Wandavision, because he's barely relevant to the plot and message of his own film. What a waste. But I digress.
Once again, I cannot thank you enough that you actually discuss in-depth about the themes in the film. It makes this weary doctor strange fan feel like they're not crazy after all for liking something most brushed off as boring. Truly, thank you both.
I fundamentally disagree. I think that that MoM was not only a good movie, but the crux of the movie was about Doctor Strange and passing his core lesson onto both Mac and Wanda
i really like how Dr. strange's character arc across the films is more subtle than just "story 1 is done, huge progress, completely good heroic character now!"
in DS 1 he needs to learn to set aside his ego. infinity war/other appearences, he's so focused on the big picture, the universe as a whole, but in no way home he needs to see the human aspect of things. finally, in multiverse of madness, his arc is not just about him no longer being in control, but learning to relinquish control to other people and trust them.
I like a theory about this movie that says that Strange became such a great wizard by the end of it because he spent functionally decades or even centuries in the time loop dying over and over again and that helped him develop his skills way further.
I like that theory.
If there’s one teacher better than most, it’s trial and error.
A sort of meta aspect to the "it's not about you" line that I particularly loved is that one of the creators of Doctor Strange was Steve Ditko, a diehard objectivist whose views often made it into his comics even when they blatantly conflicted with what his partners were writing. As someone who loathes Ayn Rand, her work, and her half-baked philosophy with every fiber of his being, I found it immensely satisfying to see a character created by a raving objectivist told to stop being a selfish prick and start thinking about other people for once.
Red's name was probably on a scroll somewhere because she was destined to step on Ant-Man thereby giving her superpowers and ultimately dubbing her Red Ant-Woman.
I’m still head cannon that Red and Blue are ancient super powerful beings that just really like literature and history.
Current ideas is that Red is Loki and Blue is Thor.
@@SharowbladyeGaymerPorate But are we certain Red isn't the Monkey King?
@@DoveJS well you do have a good point there.
I never thought of that
@@cewla3348 Why not? Especially books about the monkey?
18:15 This is a really good point. One thing that frustrated me about this character is that he focused so much on being a surgeon again that it seems like he forgot that he could be a doctor in other ways that didn't require steady hands. But something tells me that 1) he thinks less of the pediatricians and primary care doctors and the ObGyns (that aren't in the delivery room) so he would be a "lesser doctor" if he decided to open a clinic and 2) he only wants to deal with unconscious people. So maybe being a surgeon is the only way to be a doctor for him. Also, opening a clinic doesn't get him the glory.
There's also something interesting to note about where Strange fights Dormammu that I think is the main reason why his time magickry works as well as it does.
Iirc, it's defined that Dormammu is a timeless entity that exists in a timeless void. There is, functionally, no concept of time where Dormammu lives.
So since there is no "time", Strange can freely rewind time back to "I've come to bargain" as many times as it takes for Dormammu to give up, and there is never a continuity error and he can keep existing past that point, because he is fundamentally in a location where time has no meaning.
So, theoretically, Dormammu and Strange could have had their little song and dance for all of eternity, and nobody would be the wiser for it.
16:39 This is leaving out quite a significant moment for Strange. After the explosion in the chamber that separates him from Wong and Mordo and leaves him stranded in the New York Sanctum, Strange chooses to intervene to save the life of the Sanctum's master despite being horrifically outmatched. He may not be willing to throw in with the good fight when it's presented to him as a concept, but in the moment, he's willing to jump in and try to save a life.
True, I thing that Strange in the beginning is textbook example of jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold. Even his introductory moment has this: his first surgery on screen he treats very much like a game, like he's not saving someone's LIFE, but the moment he hears there is a new patient that no one has any idea how to treat, he jumps in, makes a correct on-spot diagnosis and decides he can do it, so he does. He is very much a glory hound, but he treats actual saving lifes seriously.
That is not to say he isn't a nasty person, he very much is, but I wouldn't say he doesn't care about people AT ALL. Also, remember that he was on the spot and operating in the middle of the freaking Chitauri invasion.
Guys, thank you for doing this diatribe. I'm currently coming out of something that to me feels kind of similar to what Strange went through. Thankfully, it was a lot less of a problem, but it still shook me deeply, the idea that I wasn't, in fact, in control. I am a man of faith and believed from the beginning that God wanted me to learn something from this, probably to learn about control, but that didn't really make it any easier. I'd just begun over the last year or so to really push for things that I wanted - I'd spent years on the sidelines, dealing with trauma from an emotionally abusive relationship, and finally felt ready to go, to take control of my life and do the things I'd always wanted to do. Over the course of a year, I went from working tech support and spending all my free times holing up in my room playing video games to finding a wonderful woman to be my girlfriend, working through my emotional issues, and working my way up to my dream job with the Department of State. Now I'm staring down my future as a father, as an IT professional, as a son-in-law, brother-in-law, someone holding a top secret security clearance, potentially a leader in my global church organization, and I'm thrilled. Everything seems to be going my way. Then I get rear-ended in an intersection ten minutes from my home and get a concussion that take some out of work for two weeks, because I stopped for a red light and the other guy didn't see. I know it's not the worst thing, and I'm grateful it wasn't worse. But it really shook me. In a moment, it felt like my idea for my life that I had been building came crashing down, like it was what got hit through that intersection instead of me and my car. If I couldn't predict this, if I couldn't control for this variable, what else is coming? What else will I not be able to prepare for? What else could derail me, and what is the point of continuing to pursue these dreams of mine if a guy not paying attention to my driving for one second could potentially derail them all?
Thankfully, the accident didn't derail my life. I fell back on my parents, bless them, and I had a bit of money saved up so between those two things I was able to take work off. We'd already planned a trip to give me more time away from work to heal, and both my current job and my prospective job are fine. Me and my girlfriend are stronger than ever, and I'm still looking forward to all the things I was before. I got out so lucky, because of so many good people around me, so much outside of my control. And I guess that's kind of the point, right? That in the chaotic workings of the cosmos, we can't fathom what is coming even in our own lives. Whether you believe in a higher power or not, that is always true - stuff happens that we can't prepare for. But it is in that chaos that we find not just the unexpected car accidents that take us out of work and shake us and cause us to question our fundamental beliefs, but also the amazing people around us that bolster us up afterwards, the fact that it wasn't so bad, the lessons we learn. Relinquishing control is about trust. Trusting that whether it be God or some fundamental force, that the chaos will give as it will take, and that whatever it gives or takes, we'll be ready enough to meet it.
Anyways, thank you guys. I appreciated the opportunity I had to think about this event in my life again, to be reminded that it's okay to not be in control, and that in fact, it's better if I recognize that in much if not all aspects of my life save my own actions, I am usually not in control. I can just do my best with what little I have, and hope and trust that that will be enough.
I, a math nerd, got very excited when Red talked about the thematic appropriateness of the Brownian motion of lightning during their conversation on accepting chaos in the world.
The first Doctor Strange is about learning to trust others.
The second is about trusting in yourself (Both America and Strange's character arcs revolve around this)
The third could possibly be about Strange teaching someone else to trust others, thus completing his character arc?
The second Dr. Strange was actually all about Strange trusting America to do the right thing instead of trying to stop Wanda by himself, which is what he did in the first movie. Did you get the first and second movie mixed up?
What second Doctor Strange?
@@LaZodiac You wouldn't know it, it cane out in another universe
I love how during the bargaining scene towards the end Strange is like “Hey buddy wanna bargain?” Just to be as annoying as possible
As a person with a love interest who is going through a hard time, I just want to attest that people don't say "at least I have you" because they're not concerned, they say it because they ARE really scared right now and they're trying to comfort themselves and their partner. It turns out to be a very comforting statement. I know that even if my husband and I lose our apartment or have to take out loans just to make it through the month we will find a way through this together. The statement turns my focus away from all the things I'm in danger of losing and towards the most important thing that we won't lose so long as we stay dedicated to it. And if you've read this long, I want you to know that earlier today when we confronted our financial situation it was my husband who comforted me, and I'm so grateful to him.
Thank you for sharing, that was lovely. May I ask how things are going?
@@roguepsykerhaaker4813 Things are getting better. We keep plugging along. Thank you for asking. I forgot I wrote this comment
@@elizabethgodwin7679 oh that's great! I'm very happy for you both
I remember an older comic where Strange teamed up with Silver Surfer. He was floating cross legged and reading one of the tomes, and practicing a new spell. He does the "I love you" hand sign, says the spell, fired the spell and rocketed his ass into the bookshelf and he's just sitting there stunned, open book on his head and him going "huh"
What was the context lol
Thank you for putting that there was no Multiverse of Madness discussion in the description. I love to support creators like you guys by watching the videos when they premiere (I know that helps the algorithm or something) but I also don't want to see spoilers for the movie since I haven't seen it yet.
Dr. Strange is a prime example of why therapy is important.
Actually, they also continue to explore and demonstrate the theme of relinquishing control in Multiverse of Madness. Awesome to reflect on it in hindsight.
I may be misremembering, but didn't he give Peter the "It's not about you." line in "No Way Home" just after discovering they summoned the villains?
So, I watched this when you first put it up... And I re watched it today. You made me cry both times, with a smile on my face. Thanks for all your hard work.
Actually Holy cow. Now that I think about it. Doesn't this make Steven Strange's "this is the only way" in endgame even more poignant? The sorcerer with the power to look through time and previously wanted to do everything *perfectly*, looked through every outcome and had to settle for an imperfect victory sacrificing an ally.
Even with the infinity stone. No control.
And in the multiverse of madness the guy at the wedding asks him "was it really the only way" and strange solemnly says yeah and said guy proceeds to tell him about how he lost his brother(I think) so here Strange is again, facing the chaotic outside world and failure to save everything.
The movie starts with him facing not everything going his way, Christine married off to some other guy. Even in a multiverse with another Christine, he can't get with her cause universes would implode. No control.
(Where as Scarlet Witch is grasping for control, has far greater power, and envying strange who learnt the lesson things aren't perfect & is just toppling through the universe as a mess at 100mph)
Thinking about it now, the thought baked into these movies is staggering.
I really liked the part at the end where, strange replaces the broken watch glass. My boy's finally moved on
I COMPLETELY agree with Red about multiverses. Watching Loki was neat initially but when the pulled the whole "multiverse" thing it made the whole Infinity War / Endgame saga feel like it no longer had any stakes
The stakes are still your life. Even if there are a thousand versions of you across the multiverse, you, yourself, are unique and not even the other versions of you are exactly you. If your timeline collapses, that's still you dying. The stakes haven't changed at all except that they're bigger now. You can destroy whole realities and slaughter untold numbers of people and that's pretty terrible.
I'm not sure I understand it. I mean, the Avengers still saved the universe, right? Even if it was one of an infinite many, they still did that. I'm not quite seeing how the multiverse retroactively invalidates all that hard work
i don't think it eliminates the stakes so much as it shows just how disconnected from any reality the TVA is; to anyone inside the universe, the stakes are incredibly high, but to the TVA, the stakes are incredibly low, because they go around destroying whole universes anyway to maintain what they think is the 'right one'.
@@carmacksanderson3937 Depends how they play it; if they want to they now have whole sacrificial universes to use as “this is serious” fodder, except of course at that point as noted in a Trope Talk, that’s a scope we can’t process and so it can easily undercut the point. Personally, I tend to find the “funhouse mirror” approach tedious in short order. Show me something new and different out there, not just a fanfic/crackfic take on things we’ve already seen
@@eshbena I prefer to take your take as someone with Autism.
i didnt enjoy it back in the day because i was dragged to see it, but listening to this analysis? it really shifted the perspective i had from back then and now i can critically enjoy it, thank you guys for your wonderful detail diatribes!
32:53 It's interesting looking at that scene through the lens of overcoming fear of failure. In the one sense, of course, Dr. Strange *isn't* failing - he's succeeding at stopping Dormamu from consuming the Earth. But, as you pointed out, Strange is only able to succeed in that task because he's willing to accept the *possibility* of failure. Stopping Dormamu is the equivalent of those surgical cases he always avoided because he didn't *know* if he could save those patients. As the Ancient One tells him, his fear of failure was what held him back from true greatness; by refusing any case he doesn't know he can "win", Strange avoids any failure but also holds himself back from the prospect of even greater success by saving some of those patients that weren't guarantees.
It's a nice application of the idea that failure is the primary path toward true growth. Failure is how someone learns and improves, and only by pushing one's own limits (and sometimes inevitably going beyond them) can one achieve their greatest success.
"Love does not conquer all, sometimes there are real problems." THANK YOU!
Loved this video, perfectly summed up how I felt about the first movie and how good it was even if Strange isn't my favorite Marvel character--I wasn't interested in most of his stories or comics before the movie and ended up watching it because "oh it's part of the MCU I guess I have to watch it now??" and it ended up being one of my favorites because as you guys said, it works as a standalone movie not only in it's cinematic universe, but also because it's just a damn good movie! You guys bringing up Steve Rogers also made me wonder if we'd ever get a Detail Diatribe about him and his movies (particularly Winter Soldier). IDK if you'd have a lot to talk about regarding him but I love hearing you guys talk about things I like, lol. Great work as always!
Side note: does anyone else get so engrossed in these detail diatribes that they feel like they can literally see the dolls talking until they actually look at the dolls?
Well the dolls could be talking we just wouldn't know because they don't have mouths
Nah bro lay off the smoke
Yes
Red yelling about the "what, like you?" Scene is an ace mood
I love that the movie’s main motif being time is hinted at very early on. In the opening scene during the surgery, Strange tells the attending Dr to cover his watch, hinting that Strange doesn’t want the distraction of change and time, while explicitly saying that what he wants is not to be distracted by other people and their noise. Strange then breaking his watch in Nepal gives to him exactly that, and he’s distraught by it. He carries the broken watch with him now as a reminder of that desire and it’s consequences
There's an implication I've found so few people discuss when it comes to Strange's dual with Dormammu:
Exactly how many times did Dormammu, a TIMELESS BEING, have to kill Doctor Strange before he even just got ANNOYED?
How many times did he kill Strange in this loop before he became ANGRY?
And a timeless being of unimaginable patience, how long after losing that patience do you think Dormammu, who was certainly capable of it, maybe to turn torture to make the mortal submit?
...and then how long did Strange ensure death and very likely agony until death before finally, the timeless being of unfathomable patience, actually feel like bargaining was now his only logical option?
Stephen Strange is so much more of a steel balled badass than the fandom gives him credit for just on the grounds of those implications alone.
honestly - I dare to disagree with your points on Stark. It is not that "he didn't know his weapons kill people". He made all those weapons, because he believed they will be used by "the good guys". But then Yin-Sen tells him, that his company was selling his inventions to terrorists and THAT is what was shocking to him, because he did not know of the trade arrangements of his own company. It is not that "the gun I invented and designed shoots bullets! OMG!!!!", it's more like "how did I never know that my business partner is a psychopat?".
I think he even says something like ”I saw the weapons I built kill the soldiers I built them to protect” or something.
@@williamtimonen6814 yup, he literally did - at the press conference when Stark escaped the 10 rings. Eh - it is not called "Overly Rational Productions", no idea why I got triggered at all lmao
My preference is still for Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2
the themes of family prevalent in almost every character, even in Mantis being a forgotten and mistreated child to her master. I really clicked to the idea of, not only recognizing bad habits, but, actually digging deeper to the roots of them and trying to move past the pain, get over it to become better people.
For Quill it's a matter of expectations versus reality
For Gamora it's a lack of empathy (yes, outwardly she is the mom of the group, but, even when she's telling off the screw-ups it's just snapping at them about what they did wrong rather than trying to help them not to make the same mistakes again. It's actually very reminiscent of how she treated Nebula, only seeing the challenge in front of her and basically adopting the attitude of "hey, if you didn't want to lose, you should have been a better fighter")
Then there's the centerpiece of the whole thing in Rocket and Yondu, who both essentially fear loneliness, but, through their actions, intentionally or not, drive people away.
It's, honestly, a film not so much about 'superheroes' as it is about human nature, the mental gymnastics we all do to convince ourselves that we're on the right side of history, or just typically justified in acting like total bastards, but, in the end, they're completely arbitrary reasons that only wind up leading to self-destruction, unless we recognize them for what they are and actually do something to change them.
I've always liked the fictional doctors who get completely *wrecked* when they lose a patient. It's not healthy for real surgeons, but in the realm of fiction, you often need a very quick way to demonstrate that they *care* about their patients and that kind of scene often does an amazing job of showing that.
There's an old TV show called M*A*S*H which is about a fictional mobile army hospital in the Korean war, and I think every single doctor on the show has at least one scene where they have a patient that dies or has serious ongoing complications that shows just how they handle that. This ranges from Frank Burns (possibly the most asinine character in TV history) saying "Oh well, he never had a chance anyway, NEXT" to a full episode where Hawkeye goes through a full breakdown, moving out of his quarters and obsessing over his patient's myriad complications every waking moment and both pulling away and driving off everyone who tries to help. He does eventually work out what's wrong because protagonist energy inspires him, but it's still a good episode. (The one who's closest to Dr. Strange in the show is Charles Emerson Winchester III (yes, this is how he introduces himself) who, upon having a patient flatline on him says "How could you do this to me!?" before starting CPR. (He's Frank Burns' replacement, coming in when the show had matured to be a bit more nuanced in how it does it's antagonism.)
(The show is far from completely unproblematic, but it's far better than you'd expect from a 70s sitcom, and I grew up watching it. So I'm a bit of a fan.)
What's this?! A wayfarer of the Internet with an Edwin Odesseiron profile picture discussing the television classic that is M*A*S*H? Truly I've stumbled onto the best of all possible timelines. But yeah, Frank is in fact the absolute worst, and as much of an insufferable ass as Charles could be he had a lot more humanizing moments than old Ferretface.
You're right that, being a 70s sitcom and all, M*A*S*H has its fair share of problematic elements, but to anyone stumbling upon this comment I cannot recommend it enough. I have still yet to find another TV show that can CONSISTENTLY be both as funny and as emotionally devastating as M*A*S*H is, and sometimes in the same episode! Truly one of the great Classics of television.
Strange's journey with the Ancient One is so much darker in the comic: the Ancient One is dying and Shuma-Gorath is using his mind as a gateway to try to invade Earth's reality. Strange has to *kill* the Ancient One by entering his mind and destroying his ego, his sense of self and identity. Afterward, he swears to never use sorcery again. The Ancient One then appears to him, revealing that, although he thought he would die when Strange destroyed his ego-core, what had actually happened was that the Ancient One no longer had the distinction between Self and Other, allowing him to become One With The Universe. So, by killing the Ancient One, Strange had actually allowed him to become one with Eternity, the embodiment of existence. But in that intervening period, Strange thinks he's killed his mentor, friend, positive father figure, savior, and role model.
In theaters it just kind of felt like a retread of iron man 1 but I can see now it had a lot more going on. Liked how DSMoM expanded on these themes by exploring the consequences of his choices as well as his established need to be in control over the choice in the first place.
What’s great is that Dr Strange is dead center spot on for most neuro surgeons. They almost have to have a God complex to have the sheer nerve to operate on people’s brains…
Hearing this makes wonder how the hell does the "What if Dr. Strange lost his heart instead of his hands?" even work? The man didn't have a heart until the end of the first movie!
If you want a great backstory-in-flashback, Moon Knight. Giving the flashback in the penultimate episode as a DID Alter learns the history of how he came about is an interesting way of doing it.
Interestingly, one of the tentpole motivations of Doctor Strange becoming a doctor in the comics was made canon in MoM - the death of his sister Donna. The exact setting of how she died is slightly changed, but she still drowned. But I can see how once he got to his doctorate, he felt he had succeeded what he owed Donna, and thus became the arrogant asshole we see in the first movie.
I feel like all of Stephen Strange's canon appearances have been keeping him solidly on a steady characterisation path. As you say, Stephen wants control. He controls events in IW by looking into future timelines and doing what needs to be done to keep things on the most successful path (by giving up the Time Stone to keep Tony alive), and then telling Tony, in a silent signal, that there is only one path. I NWH, Peter fights against Stephen's need to control, and by doing so shows Stephen that paths other than the one he wants to follow can work. For all that the movie ends with the forgetfulness spell wiping knowledge of Peter Parker from the world, including - presumably - from Strange - I suspect what happens in MoM is a subconscious result of what happened with Peter. MoM shows three alternates of Stephen who are all control freaks (one of whom he was told that by Christine's Variant), and all have come to bad results because of it, but because Stephen wants to do better than the Variant America mentioned, he digs into his ability to give up some of his control and trust America, giving her confidence to gain control of her powers and win the fight.
I will note, my thought that the setting of Donna's death was changed is not as changed as I thought. I thought the ice may conflict with Nebraska, but I looked at a map of the USA properly and found out where Nebraska actually is, and between that and peeps on Discord worked out that they would have frozen water in winter. The place where it is changed is I think the original story (which I got via Geek Culture Explained) it was a summer swim in the local waterhole, where as the scene in MoM where Stephen mentions Donna says it was ice cracking.
"It's not about you" something that Dr. Strange then go on to really take to heart.
In all the movies he appears in, he always tell people that he's interacting with, their lives are no more than a speck of dust in the grand cosmos of things, they gotta sacrifice for the greater good.
I foolishly avoided your diatribe videos, because I thought they were too long. (and yet watched hours of consecutive videos 🙄) I realize now how great they are. And it helps that I am working on a big embroidery project and need a video that I can more listen to and occasionally watch when you have a visual aid.
I remember a a theory/someone saying that Strange got too powerful to fast after the movie, but we don’t know how long he was in the realm with Dormomu and “training”
This was fantastic (as most of your stuff is), and Red remembers all these details then says "I should probably watch Doctor Strange again, I've only seen it once"
I wish my memory was even half as good as that
You know, for all the dickishness of Strange, I'm glad that he had that one moment midway through that showed there was more to him, the moment that a LOT of MCU characters kind of just blaze through. You know the "When I became a doctor, I swore an oath to do no harm and I have just killed a man! I'm *not* doing that again!"
The fact he recognizes that and has a problem with it is actually pretty great, honestly.
I haven’t watched the movie, but having grown up with surgeons, your entire description of pre-character development Strange is literally every surgeon I’ve ever known.
We need a Detail Diatribe on the moment when Dr. Michael Morbius says ,"It's Morbin time", in Morbius.
I straight up yelled in excitement when Red mentioned Black Jack, that was one of the first manga I ever read and it stuck with me, so having Red mention it and say she’s also read it, (as far as I know it was not very commonly known even then) was wonderful.
I'm not certain Strange actually remembered the resets when bargaining with Dormamu, since it always makes a point of him checking his wrist AFTER jumping to the planetoid where he talks to Dormamu. While this could be just him nervously making sure the spell is still active and that he's not about to die for real, one way to look at it would be like the tallymarks the Eleventh Doctor and co put on their inner arms whenever they met a Silence, an alien that erased the memories of whoever sees them as soon as they look away.
I think the spell was keeping track of the loops, and that (plus Dormamu's later reactions) is how Strange knew to change things up a bit from his original plan
You could even stretch it further and link it to watches and how both would tell him how much time has passed at a glance.
I agree, that is how I always pictured it, that he was able to keep things up for theoretically eternity because he never remembered any of it. So he only had to keep earth safe for a minute, and every minute is his first minute doing so. Additionally, it would be weird for the spell to restore his body without deleting his memory. And he is still clearly a relative novice at magic later on, which is unlikely if he spent a small eternity fighting Dormammu, as people seem to be suggesting.
That bachelor's degree insult just made me think "Oh, you know that he's the kind of guy who just coasted through university if that's how he thinks of a bachelor's degree."
But overall, thank you for reminding me how good that first Doctor strange movie is. I remember really liking it when it came out.
I think the idea that he wasn't very naturally talented from the get go doesn't hold water. He was asked how it was he was learning so quickly on multiple occasions. He even had a moment where he bragged about having a photographic (Eidetic memory. For all the pedants in that lurk in these comments sections) how smart he was because he got his PHD and MD at the same time. The Grand Master even had worries about him because he was learning so much so quickly. She was concerned he was another Kaecilius. I also don't think this is a bad thing. I never understood why we started to demonize the idea that some people are just naturally good at things. That happens in real life all of the time, and it feels slightly disingenuous to me to try and ignore that in fiction of all places, where much more fantastic things happen all the time. He creates portals by waving his hands for Pete's sake, I think we can reasonably say natural talent isn't all that off the wall.
So you didn’t listen to their justification for why they liked it… literally at all? Maybe actually watch the rest of the two minutes you’re commenting about
Actually, I would think of scarlet witch as one that requires some kind of psychic therapy. Yes, I'm making a psychonauts reference but, looking at her mental state, feels like she may be a 'beyond Maligula' level type of danger. And yes, I'm thinking there are threats that are 'beyond Maligula' levels.
Maligula is *just* a *really powerful* hydromancer. Scarlet Witch is a reality warper. The level of threat is definitely on totally different levels.
@@CrimsonBlasphemy true. I'm just thinking of mental states & I thought of Psychonauts since I'm both a fan of those series. Not to mention, her mental world would be wandavision or something.
God I would love a Psychonauts crossover with marvel. Just 4 one comic series!
@@animationdude9 actually, hell, just give us *a* comic series for Psychonauts! There are *so* many options!
@@elenafriese891 true. I would just think of a crossover than just a comic series.