To quote a famous tumblr thread: Bugs Bunny would've defeated Thanos in five minutes tops by making a mock up tsa checkpoint in the middle of the battlefield and convincing him he needs to take of the gauntlet to pass the scanner, lest he makes the 100 different iterations of bugs in the line behind him who are about to miss their flight wait
Reminds me of a similar situation where Chuck Jones mentioned in an interview he didn’t like Space Jam because Bugs could have solved the problem in 10 minutes.
Bugs Bunny could walk into Mordor by dressing up as an Evil Lair Inspector. He wouldn't be able to keep the Ring for the whole journey, he'd lose it along the way, but once there he could either set up a fake security check to confiscate the Ring from whoever has it, or engineer a series of chaotic dust-brawls that would end up with a Ring-controlled Daffy running over the edge of Mt. Doom until Bugs points out the gravity.
@@ToaArcan The reason bugs wouldn’t have done it is the same reason Tom Bombadil didn’t do it. He would have no interest in destroying the one ring unless Sauron upset bugs by taking his carrots or digging up his home. Now I’m imagining Yosemite Sauron
I've always had an idea of a trickster hero who's a detective, but is psychic. In order to hide the fact that he's a psychic, he regularly bullshits out Sherlock Holmes style deductions.
There's a japanese novel (and a dramatization, and a manga that is in half of the history) called "Medium - Jozuka Hisui" that is basically this, except that instead of psychic she is... well, a Medium (more or less, there's some twists on the end of the first book but mostly) and can just ask the dead who the f killed them. But she has to bullshit her way into convincing the cops she's legit because people cant just arrest people because "this girl who sees ghosts said it".
The first time I watched Columbo, something that took me by surprise is how often he uses underhanded tactics. As an example in season one (spoilers) the murder’s car broke down and they couldn’t figure out what happened so it had to be kept at a shop for repairs. Then, Columbo said that he caught a break in the case, the victim was wearing contact lenses, and after digging up the body and checking it, Columbo confirms that one contact was missing and that if he finds it, he found the murderer. The murderer hearing this breaks into the shop it is being kept at, searches the trunk of his car he stuffed the victim into before dumping it, and found the contact lens. The police are there waiting for him to find it and arrest him for the murder. Here is the twist though, Columbo is congratulated for knowing the contact lens was the key, and Columbo reveals that the body still had both contact lenses. The lens in the car’s trunk was a plant to get him to react. He could only plant the lens since the car was at the shop instead of the murder’s garage. It was only at the shop since it wouldn’t start and his guys couldn’t figure it was wrong with it. When the guy remarks that this was way too much of a coincidence, Columbo shares that he was a bit of a trickster as a kid. “You could shove a potato in the exhaust of a car and it wouldn’t start, and people would take ages not knowing what was wrong with it” and walks away with a smile.
he also does this in s3e2 "any old port in a storm" (spoilers ofc) where he steals a bottle of wine from the murderers cellar, which the murderer used to kill his brother by suffocation by turning off the ventilation, and has it arranged to be served to him at a restaurant. the murderer complains about how the wine had been kept in way too high a temperature and ruining the taste, which only connisseurs of wine would notice. columbo knew that a day or two before the discovery of the body there had been a very hot day of ~100 degrees and so he was able to tell that the murderer had used the cellar to kill the brother as he wouldve had to turn off the ventilation to suffocate him. picked up the dvd set for season 3 a few days ago and im absolutely loving the show
There's a false dichotomy between using cunning trickery and being weak. Spider-Man is INCREDIBLY powerful, but using overwhelming force against his villains will usually result in hurting or killing them. He doesn't use trickery because his villains are too tanky, he uses trickery because the alternative is absolutely terrifying levels of violence. Also, Superman is often a trickster as much as he is an unstoppable force, much for the same reason. This can lead to villains going "Oh, SHIT," when they realize the hero wasn't using trickery because they were weak, they were using trickery because they were being nice.
While Spiderman is incredibly powerful some of the villians he encounters are too powerfull for him to stop with just his powers. Hydroman, is the one I always think about, or living electricity Elektro, Red even mentions Sandman, and let's not forget the classic one shot nothing can stop the Juggernauat. You are absolutly right that the main reason he outsmarts is to avoid collateral damage or hurting the villain but, there is definetly a cant be punched category of Spidey villain.
@@codystork3008We see that a lot with some of his more sympathetic villains, like the Lizard. In that one story where Spidey fails to save Dr. Connors' son, we see that clear as day, specially when he snaps and nearly kills the thing. Or in his fights with Mr. Negative goons. There's also the secondary aspect of tankyness: collateral damage. The first case that comes to mind is Morlum's second appearance, where Spidey runs around like crazy looking for a place where people wouldn't be hurt by their fight. And last but not least, some of his villains just do be that strong. See the new Rhino arc for example.
@@marcospatricio8283 I almost brought up Morlun's first appearance as an example of being too strong to punch down but, In Spiderverse him and his ilk were a lot more fragile.
Villein: in medieval England, a feudal tenant entirely subject to a lord or manor to whom he paid dues and services in return for land. Power imbalance, much? (PS. Much is one of Robin Hood’s Merry Men)
as far as i can tell, after people started using insulting non-tenants with the term, its meaning morphed much in the way that bugs bunny changed the definition of nimrod
I'm not gonna lie, I want to use that terminology in my stories just to mess with readers. I know it would be so confusing it would distract from everything else but the clown in me wants to do it.
5:15-5:27 Reminds me of a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl. Will: "You didn't beat me. You ignored the rules of engagement. In a fair fight I'd kill you." Jack: "That's not much incentive for me to fight fair then, is it?"
@@xhagastok I'm curious, why are you with Hector? Most versions of the stories I hear Helen does not want to go with the Trojans, so as much as the Greeks are assholes, the Trojans are the ones who kidnapped and basically raped a woman. If it's just Hector you like then Achilles is the one who killed him, Odysseus had little say in it. Or are you just joking and I'm misreading this?
@@TempestFNG NONSENSE! Paris used Aphrodite's magic power to seduce Helen. Hector is a noble hero that protect his city. Like Achille, he was drag to the war and didn't wish to fight.
Having watched all of Columbo, I can say that the writers openly enjoyed the last seasons where the villains ask Columbo for his name. "Lieutenant Columbo." "No~, what's your first name?" "Lieutenant." Columbo openly and almost happily denies any chance of giving his first name to others.
"I'm sorry, your name is 'Sarge'?" "Yep! Pappy always said, 'dress for the job you want.' Figured I'd just take it a step further. Heh." "...Damn, I respect that!"
Like Lieu Murtaugh from Family Matters. "I had my name legally changed to Lieutenant to celebrate my promotion." "What was your name before the promotion?" "Sergeant."
The "inside-out whodunnit" Red described is actually an established subgenre referred to as a "howcatchem". Rather than focusing on figuring out who perpetrated the crime, the audience already knows who the culprit is (and usually how they committed the crime) and the draw is in seeing how the detective character uses their wits to expose the criminal and catch them.
Monk was something of a Howcatchem in the first couple of seasons. We would see the bad guy kill someone but weren't given any context for why. In some cases, after the killer does a kill, there is an additional layer by adding a complex element off-screen. For example, we would see a man kill his wife, but when the body is discovered by the cops, the corpse is somehow moved to the neighbor's bed. So, a lot of the time, the majority of the mysteries on Monk were guessing the why and the how of a crime. For me, it was the biggest draw of the episode, but after seasons 2-3 the writers dropped that format and made it a general whodunit kind of show
@@Galvatron64 To be fair, even in the episodes where we don't see the crime, Monk still usually figures out who did it before the first commercial break because of some small detail and the draw then returns to seeing him figure out the how and the why.
@@joshhumphrey736 **Guards flee** "Where are you going? He is unarmed! ... You _are_ unarmed?" "Always." "You stand alone?" "Often." "You're the one who should be afraid!" "Never."
Special mention to El-Ahrairah, the trickster hero of the rabbits in Watership Down. "Prince With One Thousand Enemies. Should they catch you, they will kill you and eat you. But first they must catch you." A trickster hero is often a character at the bottom of the proverbial food chain (or the literal food chain, in El-Ahrairah's case) who has to use wiliness and tricksiness because they have nothing else. Trickery helps level the playing field, which is why the powerful call it "cheating."
El-Ahrairrah is even more interesting because he's explicitly a collection of stories of whenever a rabbit managed to duck, weave and trick their way to victory despite overwhelming odds
11:09 "We don't just want to see villains lose; we want to see them proven wrong" if this isn't the crux of the issue for so many unsatisfying stories that setup relatable villain backstories but just end it with a fistfight
This is WHY i cried when I saw the climatic fight of the comic series "Invincible". It was so beautiful the way the hero's way of trying to solve problem through talking first was proven correct on all counts.
The briar patch story illustrates another interesting thing: Tricksters are not immune to trickery. That story kicks off with Brer Fox exploiting Brer Rabbit's temper and impulsiveness to make him trap himself. Similarly, Anansi once tried to frame his son for murder, but his son rebuts that the king totally wanted this guy dead and he'll be rewarded handsomely. At which point Anansi grabs the body and goes tearing off to confess to the king, and is promptly thrown in prison. When a trickster isn't unconditionally a hero, the audience frequently wants to see them get some kind of comeuppance, but not so much that they can never scheme again. So every once in a while, they will lose in a way they can still recover from. Even modern tricksters like Jerry Mouse and Bugs Bunny are occasionally bested, or fall to their own schemes. But these usually end with either a fade-to-black or somehow tricking their way right back out again.
Of course, that also opens the door for some truly absurd 4D chess reverse psychology. Just look at any battle from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, or any scene in Death Note with Light and L. You put two tricksters in a room with optimal conditions, they're gonna be double-crossing each other forever.
Spiderman has another layer to his trickery that you didn’t mention. He actually holds back a lot, his goading and trickery can be ways to defeat his villains without excessive force.
Well it makes sense that he holds back as one of the comics shows that when doctor octopus had taken control of Peter's body via some kind of mind swap and during a fight with scorpion hits scorpion in the jaw with a full powered punch and punches scorpion's jaw right off so Peter has to hold back or he might ending killing someone or at the very least seriously maiming them and while someone like batman would be okay with seriously maiming someone Spiderman definitely is not
Yes. Many of Spiderman's enemies are just normal people with advanced technology. Doctor Octopus' tentacles are incredibly strong, but Doc Oc himself is a normal guy. Spiderman could kill him with a single punch, which is ironically what makes fighting him so difficult.
Yeah. I don't remember where, or which villain, but I saw him go all out once, against a villain who usually manhandles him. And it was an absolute disaster. Spiderman all but disassembled the villain.
@@Kartoffelkamm He fought Kingpin as Peter Parker and made it very clear that he could murder the man if he wanted to at any moment. And yes, I mean as Peter Parker, he very deliberately took off his costume before the battle because the Kingpin made it personal.
some of the early bugs cartoons where he strikes first feel wrong, which really proves the point about trickster heroes often needing to strike second to preserve that heroism
It's been a long time since Saturday morning cartoons, so I may not have perfect knowledge, but IIRC bugs only loses when he's the instigator of the trouble. With the exception of Cecil of course. Cecil always wins.
@@basharic3162 The only time I can think of where Bugs wins as the instigator is Duck Amok, and even then, he's only revealed at the very end of the cartoon with his trademark "Ain't I a stinker?".
The opposite of the Hero's Journey is the Trickster's Heist. The trickster doesn't descend into the scary uncivilized world, he ascends into the dangerous civilized one. The trickster doesn't have mentors or allies, just the stuff he'd already prepared ahead of time and the tricks he uses. A lot of Robin Hood and Till Eulenspiegel and Argo and Anansi and Coyote stories fit it, but the two stories that I've found exemplify it perfectly - Raven Stealing The Sun (Tlingit), and My Father's Dragon. Seriously, he goes in there to steal a macguffin, armed with random items, and tricks his way out of danger each time.
My favorite skit of the original Animaniacs was a nanny who wasn't OVERTLY malicious, but couldn't be goaded into throwing the first narrative punch so the Warner siblings could handle her like normal. So they ended up calling in Slappy Squirrel, arguably a peer of the nanny and too cranky to care about who swings first, to handle the nanny so they could remain heroes.
I don't think Descartes had this in mind when he invented the Cartesian plane (which the charts basically are), but I don't think he'd disapprove of Red's analysis of society's ideas on heroism.
There’s something inherently satisfying about a trickster hero. Their whole shtick is playing on the ego and character flaws of their opponent to basically cause them to defeat themselves. It’s core is rooted in deceit and misdirection, which are such typically villainous traits but can still be used in a heroic way and I love it.
That's why I love Joseph Joestar. He's a Trickser Hero in a Traditional 80's action Anime. One of my favorite bits is his "family secrete techniqe".... running for his life as fast as he can! For the record his father, grandfather, and Great Grandfather all died as martyrs in combat, which makes the fact he's quiting a fight to run for his life even more subversive for a Shonen Protagonist.
@@stephensmith7327 Ah, Joseph. Still my favorite JoJo. He's so darn funny, but naturally still gets some important emotional moments for growth (RIP Ceasar).
The bit about the Columbo series never revealing his actual name brings to light a really famous comic where Light from Death Note was trying to write his name in said notebook and fails every single time, while Columbo keeps tearing him down until he finally mentions that he can see Ryuk.
Reminds me of an exchange in Pirates of the Caribbean that I love: ""You ignored the rules of engagement. In a fair fight I would have killed you." "Well that's not much incentive for me to fight fair now is it?" Being a Trickster is one way "The Smart Guy" can contribute to a team as well, because sometimes the rules are twisted to protect those who break the spirit of the rules, and in other cases it doesn't matter if you're "weaker" than your opponent if you know how to use what you do have more effectively than your opponent. Part of what makes a trickster hero is that subterfuge is generally their first strategy, not just using their wits every now and then.
I think part of the appeal of tricksters (that are heroes) is the outsmarting aspect feels like something we could do. Flight and super strength are out of the question, but pulling a fast one? Maybe. And this clever deception *was* concieved of by a human, just like me!
Aladdin is a perfect example of a trickster hero. At the beginning he’s just a trickster but there are hints to his heart of gold and by the end he’s a true hero. The resolution is a trick pretending to give Jafar everything he wants all the power but instead trapping him in the lamp!
Credit to Jasmine for showing herself to be a trickster, too. From immediately playing along with "she thinks the monkey is the Sultan" to distracting Jafar during the final conflict.
"Lupin the Third: The Castle of Cagliostro" is a delightful cartoon, and it relates to this because of Lupin's motivations. Lupin is a thief - very much a trickster - and he decides he's going to steal a ton of counterfeit currency from the tiny land of Cagliostro. As the story goes on, Lupin discovers there's a woman in need of rescue; and as the story goes further, Lupin discovers exactly how evil the Count of Cagliostro is. Lupin's motivations move from selfishness to dashing scoundrelhood to actual heroism, and while the movie doesn't come right out and make a point of it, you as the viewer pick up on it at some level. It makes Lupin increasingly easy to get behind.
I always like to see castle of cagliostro as high character development for lupin(despite what the creator saying this one of last grand adventures). In the first 3 parts(and the woman named fujiko mime) lupin was very impluses and pretty selfish. Just living in the moment as seen in "mystery of mamlo". However after castle of cagliostro, lupin while still impulsive and the likes, has mature in a way and is more heroic or at least less selfish in part 4-6. Again that how like to view it.
@@LauraAnimalgirl ... not exactly. Decades ago there were novels written about one Arsene Lupin, gentleman thief. The cartoon "Lupin the Third" is sort of a fanfiction spinoff with Arsene's grandson. It's like when someone gets the idea to do "Sherlock Holmes Jr". Anyway, that Netflix show seems to be also based on Arsene Lupin, only it's Arsene's son I think. Do seek out "The Castle of Cagliostro", it's the first cartoon directed by the "Princess Mononoke" guy (Miyazaki).
@@LauraAnimalgirl No. Lupin III is the grandson of the literary character who also inspired the Netflix version. Anime Lupin and Netflix Lupin have nothing in common outside of both being influenced by the same literary source.
When I listened to Red describing mythological trickters I noticed an interesting thing: Mythological tricksters are often the most popular cultural characters: - Loki is one of the most famous Norse gods - Sun Wukong is the most recognisable Chinese hero - Maui is the most recognisable Polynesian character - Anansi is literally the most popular character from sub-Saharan Africa - Coyote and Raven are what first comes to mind when talking about Indigenous American folklore
I mean looks at bugs bunny, the doctor and all in between, there is a reason red described loki as making things work through Lies, Trickery, Slapstick comedy and occasional pregnancy even Hercules had to complete some of his labours though trickery. We love a good underdog story, we love seeing bad things happen to people(even more so if they are bad people) because it is funny(aka why shows like total wipeout work), and it resonates with us as humans because we have to think our problems because for 99% of us we are not the fastest or strongest around(and even for those few who are generally the best in a room they are not always that way)
Tricksters are populist. They say "You don't need strength or money or connections, as long as you're *clever.*" That automatically makes them appealing to anyone who considers themselves disadvantaged.
Maui is only the most recognizable Polynesian character because Disney made a movie about him. Like... he's just in that one movie. He doesn't have a bunch of different pop culture interpretations like a lot of the others.
I loved when Doctor Aphra pulled a Briar Patch. During all the Darth Vader comic series, she wouldn't stop telling him "Please, don't throw me trough an airlock into space. That's the worst way to die I can imagine". So, when inevitably their working relationship goes sour, and Vader throws her through the airlock, she has her crew ready to pick her up before she suffocates.
I think part of what makes trickster heroes so compelling is that the trickster half of their persona is much more inherently villainous than it is heroic. Which means that when they defeat the villain it essentially says that the trickster hero is better at being the bad guy than the bad guy Even When they're the being the good guy, which is a mortal blow to any villains ego and very satisfying for the audience.
The timing of this is so funny to me, because I was talking to a friend just this morning about how Bilbo is a trickster hero in the Hobbit. He lies, sneaks, steals, uses cleverness and taunts to deal with both the spiders and the elves, all forces stronger and meaner than he is. He’s fundamentally good, but he’s just a little guy and he has to be clever to survive (and save his friends)
I mean, that is the whole point of Bilbo though. Gandalf went looking for someone to be the thief/trickster of their group, and went with Bilbo, right?
@@RorikH that’s true! Probably because he’s partially inspired by Odin (prior to lotr) (being a wanderer in a wide hat with mysterious powers and rune carving) and Odin is a bit of a trickster god. So that tracks!
Red is the real trickster hero. Making an episode of trope talk thinking that it’s just gonna be another episode when she really just wants to talk about Columbo again. Genius
My favorite Columbo scene is from the military academy episode, "By Dawn's Early Light". During a conversation, Columbo breaks through the colonel's ironclad composure, and finds a man who is deeply lonely and struggles with the futility of establishing peace and order in a world filled with humans who make such a thing impossible. Killing the victim was the only way he could keep control over the school, his own little fortress and time capsule in a world with no other need for him. He says something like, "I'll hang up my coat when there's no more war. And I suppose you'll hang up your coat when people stop hurting each other." Columbo is about to talk about how he struggles with those thoughts too, how he talks about it with his wife, which is more of a genuine look into Columbo's personal philosophy than we've seen in the entire rest of the show- Then the phone rings, the colonel's armor is back on, Columbo is back on the trail, and the world comes crashing back in. Just that one, quiet scene of two professionals briefly abandoning their uniforms and being honest about how they really feel is SUCH good characterization. Anyway, my favorite Trickster Hero is Lupin III. Cool as hell.
I think "trickster heroism" also speaks to us as humans because it also exemplifies the relationship between humans and other animals, or at least the animals that would be dangerous to us or otherwise difficult to overcome physically. Humans have evolved to be tricky, to make up for their physical disadvantages through tool use and brain power. A human isn't going to wrestle down a grizzly bear, nor is it going to catch a bird with its bare hands. I don't think a bear would find a bear trap "sporting", or a bird a bird snare "honorable", but these are what we use regularly to punch above our weight class. We love an underdog story, because for much of our history we have been the perpetual underdog.
And on the flip side of things, there's also the way that agriculture encouraged the centralization of social power, so you wind up with 90% of humans in every civilization constantly feeling like they're under the thumb of a few insanely powerful humans! Evolutionary psychology accounts for some of our underdog feelings by making us look up to other animals, but I don't think trickster stories would resonate quite so well if sociology wasn't so good at making us underdogs to OURSELVES, as well.
The few physical attributes that humans have that are better than average also lend themselves to more indirect tactics. While opposable thumbs are an obvious trait, I think it was our wrists that actually have a larger impact since they directly contribute to humans being one of the best animals at _throwing,_ and especially throwing with both force and precision. We're not very large, so on our own, we can often be at a range disadvantage, but pick up something and we suddenly have one of the best effective ranges out there. Switching from our arms to our legs, we are by no means the fastest animals, not by a long shot, but we _do_ have notably high _endurance._ A common tactic for early hunters was supposedly to let their prey run away and then slowly follow them, and continue until the prey collapses from exhaustion. Seems there might be something to "slow and steady wins the race."
@@angeldude101 to other animals, we're the serial killer that they run away from, turn around and we're still there, somehow just behind them, and we're *walking*.
A clever person, a wise man, and a strong man Find a pot of Gold. But this pot of gold is protected by a magically powerful majin. The majin says, "I will let you have the gold if you can answer me one question. Which of you 3 can make the loudest nooze with this drum?" The strong man hits the drum with a hammer as hard as he can, making a loud noise. The wise man attaches a stick to an even larger stick. Slamming it into the drum with all his might, making an even louder Bang. The clever person states, "the wise man.". Game changer session 6 episode 1
Grunkle Stan from Gravity Falls hits this note. His character and arc is really interesting, asking how and why a trickster acts, what does and doesn't cross the lines of good behavior and making his status as a hero ambiguous for half the show. He defeats Smugger-than-Smug Bill Cipher only by relying on his family, letting the people he needs to protect most in, and using his tricks only on his foes.
Bill Cipher being trickster: putting Dipper is a desperate situation where the Author's laptop is counting down to total data erasure, and promising to help him access it in a exchange for a puppet. When the deal was made, Bill never specified which puppet: Dipper. And the rest of the episode is Bill being creepy in Dipper's body, abusing it, while Dipper is helpless as a spirit. Grunkle Stan as a trickster: fools Bill into believing he's his twin brother and going into his mind to get the information he needs to leave the boundaries of Gravity Falls. Once the trick is revealed, Bill finds himself trapped because the terms of the deal are unfufilled, made worse that Stan's mind is being erased with Bill in it. There's also that episode where Ford and Dipper are trapped in a DND game and Stan wins their freedom by cheating; he stuck gum on the dice so it would fall on the desired number. When Bill is a trickster, it's usually out of selfishness, amusement, and to sow chaos. When Stan tricks, it's to protect those he loves and to punish someone who deserves it.
That's the real trick, Bill thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and can't conceive that he could ever be tricked , which means he isn't looking out for the conman's bag-o-tricks, like the fake twin brother, or the shell game, or the old "can I just come in for a glass of water" trick.
You know what makes Bill’s defeat more satisfying? You could totally tell what was going on even before the reveal. If you look at the scene before Bill goes into his mind, the man in the cloak has five fingers.
Maybe part of the reason why the Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover worked is that both characters are foils to a colorful trickster cast, but still function by their logic.
I like the idea of someone who is typically a trickster hero, but then they get really pissed and its revealed they're incredibly powerful outside of the tricks
The Irish giant. Fionn Mac cumhaill Or its english translation... Which is honest to goodness. -Finn McCool. Was a trickster hero. He built the giants causeway to meet, and fight, another giant. When he learned how big the dude was he dressed up like a baby. A giant baby. And had his regular human wife talk to the giant about how small he was compared to his father. The giant saw this baby, just a little smaller than him and imagined how big Fionn was. Then ran for the hills. Fionn is a trickster hero taught to all Irish kids in 1st year. He was hilariously brilliant.
You forgot the iron pan hidden in a pancakes. "Oh these are so delicious, my son love them" *Giant bites into one with an iron skillet hidden in it and breaks his tooth*
@@Chokah O.o)/ I did forget that one. I need to find that dinner scene. I remember it having so many great moments. Fionn was a great bout of folklore to learn about. Oh... Now I need to find the name of the king who was immortal provided he never touched Irish soil again. Then he ages in a * snap * Thanks for reminding me of that!
The version I know, the Baby trick was his wife's idea. But yes, he had a habit of using his wits to not confront a problem in a head clash on but to nullify it via an indirect method.
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 oh yeah! I knew I was missing something his wife did, I thought it was that she did all the trickster talkin' But the whole thing was her idea. Thanks for the reminder. (This whole myth'll be reassembled in these comments eventually.)
@@benneeds_a_name7398 And some new myths as well no doubt, that is how myths breed! People misremember, accidently import something from elsewhere or make up something to go with the flow, next thing you know, Loki McCool and his sidekick MacGyver is someone's genuine canon! 😜
I always love Columbo references. He's such a great character, and he does go up against some SLIMY guys. But he's SO MUCH FUN. I think he even went up against one of the actors who played Sherlock Holmes...which was great. Also he arrested Kirk and Spock. Fun times.
has nothing to do with the main concept of the video (which is done great as always), but i really like how, in the clip you use where rhino throws an engine at a building and spidey swoops in to save the people about to be crushed by rubble, the mom/whoever quickly shoves the child out of the way before spidey saves her in turn. Its a quick little thing they animated, but it elevates the people being saved from props Spider-Man can pick up and put down to show he is good guy, to characters that are actually reacting to what is happening and acting based on their priorities, which isnt always done in superhero media. Makes the world feel more alive, you know? Good clip selection, and good on the animators for that.
Peter Falk also played the character with considerable charisma. "There's just one thing..." "Oh, by the way..." Columbo is one of those characters you'd want to sit in on your D&D table just to see how he'd play and would be figuring out the villain and main plot in Episode 1. And now I'm picturing Columbo playing a Mastermind Rogue...
Pathfinder 2e has an Investigator class, with an Interrogator subclass that specializes in compelling targets to answer questions and detecting lies. One of the Investigator's class feats is even called "Just One More Thing".
The most interesting thing is that his particular style of interrogation, i.e. letting people open up by playing the fool, is actually taught in police schools under the name of "Columbo's Technique".
And like a true trickster, Columbo always gives his opponent a chance to surrender, to come clean and confess to the crime. He doesn't even carry a gun (though that's mainly because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn), so all conflicts in the series are handled without violence. Even Sherlock Holmes came to blows with Moriarty on multiple occasions. No sword fighting with his nemesis like Professor Layton, no punching somebody's henchman until they confess like Batman, Columbo can get the villain to spill the beans just by talking them down. He's the ultimate trickster detective.
You brought up Columbo, but there’s another trickster detective that I think fits the trope better. Shawn Spencer from “Psych.” Not only does he trick the criminals, but he also tricked the police themselves into thinking he is a psychic when in reality, he is just incredibly hyper observant.
The Doctor from Doctor Who is a great example of a Trickster Hero. Especially his second incarnation who loved to play the fool to misdirect his opponents and uses their own strength against them.
@@jasonblalock4429 I've seen Seven described as a counterpoint to the Second Doctor. Both act like clowns to hide their intelligence, the difference being that Seven always has a plan and clearly relishes in tricking his foes, whilst Two seems to save the day by accident, and seems to enjoy clowning around for the fun of it (whilst with Seven there was always a reason). Also both like their music, Two has his recorder and Seven plays the spoons.
At this point, the "hero" is just "opposed to the villain." Which can work. A lot of the time a trickster hero is at their best when opposed by a powerhouse of a villain, and that makes it admirable when the hero uses their wits to win the day. Like the Doctor, a big part of the appeal of his character is how he doesn't use force to win. His enemies do all the time. Even the smarter ones like the Master use power to win, but that makes it all the more satisfying when the Doctor wins by outwitting them or uses their own power against them.
I literally got in a fight over the definition of a hero because someone was trying to set a firm definition and then say everything outside of his definition was not a hero. Thank you for making this and making me feel more sane lol
“A trickster hero’s primary skill set is in manipulating a situation to their advantage through cunning and trickery rather than bruit force. Generally, they are in some way an underdog facing some sort of more powerful antagonist; and if they fought an antagonist on the terms that antagonist defined, they would 100% lose.” This truly is a Joseph Joestar moment.
@@starmaker75 I think Joseph is the most "trickster" out of all of them though. Most JoJo battles involve bluff and misdirection, hiding what you can do or know and finding out what they can do or know. But Joseph leans the most into the Bugs Bunny nonsense. Yeah I know EsiDesi is trying to cut my net, but rather than stopping that I'll just use a magic trick to make sure it doesn't work. Yeah I won against Kars due to sheer luck, but I'll pretend I knew what I was doing just to rub salt into the wound. Yeah I'm a two ton walking muscle god but I need to sneak into this Nazi base in drag.
Joseph is the most trickster JoJo but I think Johnathan is the only one that isn't one. Even then he had some clever moments like diving deeper into that lake to take a breath with trapped air.
Recently read a webcomic called Lavender Jack who is now in my mind the archetypical trickster hero; he isn't even introduced as a hero, we only see him at first from the perspective of his targets of vigilante justice and the detective hired to investigate him. He's physically fit but almost always overwhelmed in a directly physical fight, and has to rely entirely upon the environment and turning his enemies weapons against them. In spite of that, he'll often forgoe some of his tools to fight "honourably" in one-on-one situations, even when he's likely to lose, but equally often strikes first and without warning. He has a civilian alter ego, but he uses it much more proactively than most do, using it to gain access and continue his investigations, often in plain sight. His motivation is a mystery for much of the first season, and it takes a while for any other heroic characters to start to trust him. He's basically if Bertie Wooster became Batman and dressed up as the Phantom of the Opera while being actively hunted by Poirot. Highly recommend it.
As someone who is a Pacific Islander, first, thank you for including Maui as an example. But rather than Maui's capture of the Sun. I feel a better example of both his trickster nature, as well as a heroic god is in the story of how he stole the secret of fire. To sum up: Maui tricks a bunch of birds who hoarded the knowledge of fire by using a doll to make it look like he went fishing. Upon successfully learning the secret he then brands the birds as retribution for not just telling him the first time. So, humans get fire, and birds forever have a red mark on their face. (double creation myth for the price of one)
I love Red's sarcastic voice when she's doing the "Oh, no! Please don't [fill in the blank]!" bit. I don't know what it is about it, but I just want to hear more of it.
The "trickster on behalf of others" angle is perhaps why Bugs Bunny doesn't land as well with some folks these days. Bugs in his shorts is almost always tricking the antagonist because of a slight to himself, and he's so much smarter than them that it ends up not looking like a fair fight, especially after all the times we've seen him come out on top. I enjoy Bugs, but it took this video to help me understand why some folks don't.
This is a problem with a number of "heroes" from that era. You can add Woody Woodpecker, Tweety and Jerry to that list. They just come across as smart arses at best, and just mean at worst, Whilst the supposed villains end up being sympathetic.
@@intergalactic92 The only reason these characters seem mean is because we're already used to them winnning. They're supposed to be underdogs that win, but once we know they'll always win they're no longer underdogs, so the predators become the underdogs. And when the character with plot armour uses whatever means they have against the underdog, they just look mean.
“He can’t punch somebody into orbit to get rid of them…” One of Todd McFarland’s last Marvel comics was Spidey vs the Hulk (grey, Mr. Fixit at the time) and he literally did just that. Spidey had a plot induced power up and it was just hilarious to me that I remember the ONE TIME this was wrong immediately after hearing that.
10:45 Thanks for pointing out the implicit problem that beating up a "might makes right" villain basically proves the villain point even if it does often have to be done without any philosophical counterargument.
From the very start of this episode I was just thinking, "So..Robin Hood?" Which I still maintain. But I also realized by the end, "Hey isn't The Doctor (Dr Who) also a trickster hero?"
Reigen from Mob Psycho is a great example, despite having no powers and absolutely lying to people about it, he still does everything he can in his own mischievous way. Not only does he help Mob on his journey of growing up with psychic powers, he also finds ways to help his coustemers such as by giving massages, not to mention he manages to snap back to reality a bunch of delusional psychics and helps to save the world witouth really meaning to. By all accounts he is flawed and shady, and yet his nature as a good guy keeps him in check
One of the things about Spider-Man though is that he actually *does* have the strength to just brute force most of his enemies, it’s just that he doesn’t want to straight up kill them and is constantly holding back. He relies on his wits and the terrain to compensate for the handicap he gives himself, which arguably highlights his heroic qualities more
Yeah a lot of his villains are people that were regular people that are going through some difficult times for one reason or another and not quite right in the head so he doesn't want to hurt them, he wants to save them though I think some of these nuances have gotten lost in some of the more recent iterations.
@@darcieclements4880 Yeah, that's one of the reasons I liked No Way Home so much is that it brought that aspect to the forefront of who Peter Parker is
I grew up hearing stories of Asban (the raccoon spirit) playing tricks on Odihozo (who was a giant being with no legs and dragged themself around creating riverbeds) to get them to chase Asban so as to make sure the rivers went where the people needed them, and teaching the other animals to hunt near the human settlement because humans attracted the small prey animals. Yes, I have seen Over the Hedge. Yes, I remain convinced it was a retelling of an Asban legend.
In some of the Loony Toons episodes, however, it was Bugs Bunny who instigated the fight with Elmer Fudd. For example, the time when Elmer Fudd just wanted to relax at Jello-stone National Park, and Bugs Bunny wouldn't leave him alone.
Joseph and a lot of JJBA works because of the trickery done by a lot of the characters. There’s too many fights where the heroes win because they outsmart their enemies. Even Joseph’s secret technique is a way of tricking his enemies.
Anansi isn't the only trickster hero that west Africa has. Nigeria and, more specifically, the Yoruba region where I'm from also has a trickster god called Esu. He also hold triple duty as he is also a psychopomp and messenger, kind of like Hermes, but then he also gets slotted into the devil role after colonisation and the "fun" stuff happened like loki did
You might think that Superman is the antithesis of a Trickster. But he’s actually much more of a trickster than given credit for. Not only does he play up the Clark Kent facade to gaslight them into thinking he’s not Superman, but he’s always involved in several hijinks to trick both friends and foes all the time. One of his greatest villains is a virtual GOD who he has to outwit in order to defeat on a regular basis because he can’t overpower him with strength alone.
There's a pretty strong folkloric tradition of powerful warrior heroes who nevertheless use trickery sometimes against opponents even more powerful than them. Red mentions Sun Wukong and Odin here, but Hercules is another famous example, and arguably Krishna.
true. I think it was in All-Star Superman? He basically had to navigate a prison riot and stop Parasite all while not revealing his identity to Lex Luthor, who's smart enough to put pieces together (thankfully, he's so self absorbed, he doesn't notice)
In Superman The Animated Series, there is a surprising amount of villains who are defeated by Sups not by raw strenght but with guile. Very often villains that he can't directly attack for whatever reason. Lets not forget that Superman consistently bested Mr Mxyzptlk, a cosmic trickster.
I mentioned earlier the bit in Superman II where he outfoxes Zod and Co. Even playing Luthor like a fiddle to do it. While it doesn't get the kind of spotlight it probably should, Supes is no dummy and does know how to use his head.
I'll always think of the Hogan's Heroes series when thinking about Trickster Heroes, especially Colonel Hogan. The heroes seem to be helpless pows, stuck in an 'inescapable' prison camp. But through secrets and Hogan's plans, they do much to disrupt the Nazis in power and help some people along the way. I think you'd have fun watching it. There's definitely some stuff you'd find iffy, but overall there's a lot that can be enjoyed from it.
I remember back in AvX comics, Spider-Man tried using his full strength (that he usually holds back on) against a Phoenix-powered Colossus and Magik, and he ends up with a bunch of broken bones. There he is, barely able to talk because his jaw is dislocated, and he manages to convince the two of them that they'd be better off fighting each other instead of him, and it works. He figures out during the quipversation that they are both so overprotective of each other that it would only take a little nudge to make them want to beat the Phoenix out of the other one for their sake.
I've always loved tricksters as heroes because they have to walk such a fine line. They have to be wheedling without being smarmy, confident without being boastful, and intelligent/quick thinking without being a know-it-all. Ferris Beuller is such a good example of this. The writers/casting team said Ferris had to have enough charisma and self-reflection for the audience to want him to get away with his shenanigans otherwise he would come across as a self-absorbed jerk.
6:45 I know this is irrelevant but I love how the mom pushes the kid out of the way in this clip. Showing how normal people can be heroic even when not on the scale of the supers instead of just sitting there and waiting to be saved.
one of my favorite trickster heroes is Joseph Joestar from JoJo. What really sold me on him was the reveal that he was a trickster type hero. The previous protagonist, Johnathan Joestar, was an incredibly noble and kind person who always faced threats head on and only fought people on equal ground, using only his determination to help him win fights. Joseph's first fight involves him pulling a gun on a vampire, tricking him into destroying a mirror thinking that it was Joseph, trying to blow up said vampire by strapping grenades this scarf when he wasn't looking, when he exhausts his options Joseph pulls out the now legendary Secret Joestar Technique and runs away, and lets not forget his iconic "Your Next Line Is" that always signifies that he's figured out his opponent so well he can guess what he's going to say.
I suspect that Trickster Heroes are such a popular archetype in mythology and folklore because their exploits are more memorable, and more fun to tell. Even the stronger heroes get occasional trickster episodes because it's simply more interesting. Heracles winning at wrestling because he's stronger isn't much of a story to remember; winning at wrestling because he's strong, and knows to lift his son-of-Gaia opponent off the ground so he doesn't regenerate, is more of a story. Heracles tricking Atlas into taking the sky back onto his shoulders because he "just needs to shift his cloak" is truly memorable.
It's especially interesting and neat since that's not how he usually fights. Most of the time he's shown to just use his super strength to fight and solve problems
@@thedragonwarrior5861 Exactly why it's my favorite part. When pitted against an opponent he cannot defeat using his usual tactics, he had the mental flexibility to find an alternative solution.
joseph joestar is my absolute favourite example of this trope, he bluffs his way through the story so hard that when the main villain is defeated by sheer luck he thinks it must've been joseph's plan all along and joseph just to rub it in pretends it was
It's made even funnier when you consider that afterwards, Kars became frozen solid in space for the rest of time, and he only "eventually" stopped thinking, which implies that he probably spent an unimaginable amount of time thinking back to his fight with JoJo and trying to figure out how the fuck he managed to plan for every single thing that happened, I wonder if he ever managed to figure out it was just a bluff?
does it count if he tricks them by being completely insane? His brain's overloaded, it has a chocolate coating textbook case for Sigmund Freud, Freakazoid! Freakazoid!
@@starmaker75 Freakazoid saw all of the internet in a few seconds. He's not putting on a mask, he's just without a single marble that is remaining unlost.
Check out Dexter Douglas! Nerd computer ace! Was surfing on the internet and got zapped to cyberspace! He turned into the Freakazoid! He's strong and super quick! He drives the villains crazy cos he's a lunatic!
I can get on-board with almost all of this, but the archetypal trickster hero is Robin Hood. He robs the rich to feed the poor, often doing so via trickery and disguise rather than straight-up brute force. Sure, he and his Merry Men might shoot arrows or thwack people with quarterstaffs, but usually his victories come as a matter of outsmarting Prince John, Guy of Gisborne, the Sheriff of Nottingham, or whatever other opponent he's facing. He often turns enemies into friends after a friendly contest where one party plays a trick on the other and they all have a good laugh about it. It's not an accident that Disney's animated Robin Hood is an anthropomorphic fox.
In reference to what you said about tricksters relying on the villain’s agency, I heard a street magician once observe that the best cons make the victim think they are doing the conning. Partly because it plays to ego, partly because if there’s always a sucker but it’s someone else, it can’t be you, and partly because once you realize the con it’s a lot harder to go for help and admit what you were expecting. It’s a lot harder to con an honest person (not counting cons that prey on types of ignorance in vulnerable populations like computer scams for the elderly). Villains on the other hand will jump at an underhanded opportunity to gain an advantage without noticing that they’re the sucker.
The line about Superman punching somebody into orbit was a reference to "Superman vs the Elite" wasn't it? I know you've talked about it before, and that's a classic example of Superman being a trickster hero. Something he's perfectly capable of being if he needs to.
Hercules was known for using cunning and trickery. Cleaning a stable with a river, having his nephew/good boy Iolaeus burn the Hydra, getting Atlas to get the apples from his daughters AND getting him to take the sky back by pretending to drop it ...
Ultimately, the central concept of "hero" is "aspirational figure". "They're my hero" can be said of just about anyone, even a flagrant villain (though probably not a villein!). A hero does what ordinary people don't, and frequently can't, but wish they could - or at least that someone would.
For some reason I can't make an independent comment, but can add on to other comments, so to expand on your comment, I would add that the title character from Hogan's Heroes is absolutely a Trickster Hero (and also a rare male example of the honey trap - Col. Robert E Hogan is dashingly handsome and has been able to distract and use female Gestapo agents sent to interrogate and use HIM) who uses his wits and extensive contacts (and optimal use of the varied abilities of the men serving under him) to defeat the WW2 Nazi war machine under the alias, Papa Bear, while he pretends that he and his men are ordinary POWs, unable to be able to do any of the things the super spy Papa Bear is accused of. If you want a good trickster, fighting the ultimate good fight, Col Hogan and the Unsung Heroes are it. Also, the Germans all come out of it looking completely stupid and incompetent for the most part, but sometimes the worst Nazis do show up, and the crazy schemes are particularly satisfying then (off screen deaths for that bunch).
@@marieroberts5664 The example I considered giving was Robin Hood - greatest archer in the world, but also a colossal underdog, so uses ambushes and misdirections to wage a guerilla campaign against the corrupt nobles, redistributing their wealth to the poor.
@@rmsgrey absolutely! And several people have that person as their 'go to'... But the good Col Hogan has been forgotten in this thread, and I figure raising his profile among those who love a trickster and may want to see what a completely selfless hero version looks like; he chooses to stay behind and run the most successful escape, rescue and sabotage organization of the war, which means that if he's caught, it's torture and execution for him. Furthermore, he shares all the hardships and works alongside them for missions, even tho his rank entitles him to better treatment, accommodations and less work. I guess you can tell he's my hero, and a bit of a crush for 5 year old me, back in 1966.
This is basically the litterary distinction between Classical heroes, and Modern Heroes. Classical = can perform Heroic deeds, Modern = Perform deeds for Heroic reasons.
One of my favorite examples of trickster heroics is the show "Hogan's Heroes." Pitting the main characters against the nazis immediately marks them as heroes, their status as Luft-stalag POW's makes them underdogs, and their easy camaraderie makes them incredibly easy to like. And while their antics are obviously of the hyperbolic kind (mostly due to it be a screw-ball sitcom), their schemes are always full of easily appreciated cunning and guile :)
the good news is that most of them are just old folk tales anyway, uncomfortable 19th century retellings and disney adaptations aside. i remember i had a picture book about the tar baby story with some really sick psychedelic looking illustrations that i would read and reread all the time.
This is a fun trope, and I do enjoy it a lot. I just briefly got distracted by that one guy in the "Detective Columbo" clips that made me think "IS THAT MISTER SPOCK?!"
That clip certainly made me do a double-take. Intellectually, I understand Leonard Nimoy was a normal human man with normal human ears, but it was still weird seeing him like that.
The Doctor from Doctor Who is one of, if not THE best trickster hero around. Every time they defeat an enemy, they use the enemies told against them, and the resolution to one of the earliest episodes starts with them looking almost directly into camera and saying "yes! That's it! We'll cause trouble!"
I especially love when the show references all the mythically/historic characters that may be The Doctor, or at least based on him, like Merlin or Santa. I would not be shocked if someday in a comic or audio story River Song implies that Loki was actually based on a very long weekend The Doctor spent bouncing through Norse history.
We actually do find out Columbo's first name in the series pilot. Its never said in dialogue, but we see it printed on his police ID briefly: "Frank" And we meet his wife, but not in the series. She is the protagonist in a spinoff series that lasted a few seasons. Played by a 20 year old Kate Mulgrew. Who would later go on to play Captain Janeway in Star Trek Voyager.
@@Mansplainer2099-jy8ps the spinoff didn't work well. By the last season they had completely renamed and scrubbed all reference to Columbo from the series. Which makes senses, if you've seen episodes of the show. Kate Mulgrew was a great actor even back then. But a 20 year old trying to play a middle aged woman was a bad starting point. And the writers never figured out how to make her be Mrs Columbo and Kate Columbo, mystery-solver. Eventually, they just gave up, and removed the Columbo references entirely. The line about "that woman impersonating my wife" is a tongue in cheek reference by the Columbo writers to the Mrs Columbo series having to drop it's connection to Columbo to make any sense
I love it when a trickster hero is just a high-ranking commanding officer. Because on the one hand, it gives us some fun moments of the lower enlisted or lieutenants pull a prank or do something devious to their CO and the CO laughs and talks about how they used to do something similar. But also, it makes sense. Commanders have to be tricksters. "Fighting fair" means getting people killed and losing battles. You can easily align their trickster behaviors to selflessness, even if they disagree with the war, because they're just trying to keep their men alive. And their position as commander makes sense because you would absolutely promote someone who was clever and won battles with minimal losses. It flows together so nicely. You can also so easily have the CO "punish" the protagonists who are also trickster heroes by giving them difficult and dangerous tasks, but the CO only does this because they know our heroes can handle it. After all, our heroes will find those tricky and clever ways of solving the problem. This was often done in Star Wars the Clone Wars. Anakin was a trickster commander, his chosen second in command, Rex, was also a trickster, and they valued people like Fives, Echo, Kix, and so on who thought outside the box. This was often contrasted with the "Good soldier follow orders" thing most clones had going on.
Perhaps its because I've been browsing clips of House but I think he fits this trope in an interesting way. There isn't normally a villain in an episode of House MD. Instead his trickery is aimed at the protocols of the hospital or a lying patient or family member.
To quote a famous tumblr thread: Bugs Bunny would've defeated Thanos in five minutes tops by making a mock up tsa checkpoint in the middle of the battlefield and convincing him he needs to take of the gauntlet to pass the scanner, lest he makes the 100 different iterations of bugs in the line behind him who are about to miss their flight wait
Reminds me of a similar situation where Chuck Jones mentioned in an interview he didn’t like Space Jam because Bugs could have solved the problem in 10 minutes.
Bugs Bunny could walk into Mordor by dressing up as an Evil Lair Inspector. He wouldn't be able to keep the Ring for the whole journey, he'd lose it along the way, but once there he could either set up a fake security check to confiscate the Ring from whoever has it, or engineer a series of chaotic dust-brawls that would end up with a Ring-controlled Daffy running over the edge of Mt. Doom until Bugs points out the gravity.
@@ToaArcan The reason bugs wouldn’t have done it is the same reason Tom Bombadil didn’t do it. He would have no interest in destroying the one ring unless Sauron upset bugs by taking his carrots or digging up his home. Now I’m imagining Yosemite Sauron
@@onegenericmaninstead of a big spooky flaming eye, it’s a big spooky flaming moustache
@@onegenericman Sauron was moving into Bug’s carrot field and destroying his carrots.
I've always had an idea of a trickster hero who's a detective, but is psychic. In order to hide the fact that he's a psychic, he regularly bullshits out Sherlock Holmes style deductions.
Reverse Psych
So the opposite of Psych?
There's a japanese novel (and a dramatization, and a manga that is in half of the history) called "Medium - Jozuka Hisui" that is basically this, except that instead of psychic she is... well, a Medium (more or less, there's some twists on the end of the first book but mostly) and can just ask the dead who the f killed them.
But she has to bullshit her way into convincing the cops she's legit because people cant just arrest people because "this girl who sees ghosts said it".
what the hell is Psych
@@Phantom-dh2vq A TV show about a Sherlock style detective who solves crimes by pretending to be psychic.
Tombstone: COME DOWN HERE AND FIGHT LIKE A MAN!
Spider-Man: I don't suppose I could convince you to come up here and fight like a spider?
The first time I watched Columbo, something that took me by surprise is how often he uses underhanded tactics. As an example in season one (spoilers) the murder’s car broke down and they couldn’t figure out what happened so it had to be kept at a shop for repairs. Then, Columbo said that he caught a break in the case, the victim was wearing contact lenses, and after digging up the body and checking it, Columbo confirms that one contact was missing and that if he finds it, he found the murderer. The murderer hearing this breaks into the shop it is being kept at, searches the trunk of his car he stuffed the victim into before dumping it, and found the contact lens. The police are there waiting for him to find it and arrest him for the murder.
Here is the twist though, Columbo is congratulated for knowing the contact lens was the key, and Columbo reveals that the body still had both contact lenses. The lens in the car’s trunk was a plant to get him to react. He could only plant the lens since the car was at the shop instead of the murder’s garage. It was only at the shop since it wouldn’t start and his guys couldn’t figure it was wrong with it. When the guy remarks that this was way too much of a coincidence, Columbo shares that he was a bit of a trickster as a kid. “You could shove a potato in the exhaust of a car and it wouldn’t start, and people would take ages not knowing what was wrong with it” and walks away with a smile.
What a character
The real OG.
The darling Jessica Fletcher also pulls this trick a bunch
he also does this in s3e2 "any old port in a storm" (spoilers ofc) where he steals a bottle of wine from the murderers cellar, which the murderer used to kill his brother by suffocation by turning off the ventilation, and has it arranged to be served to him at a restaurant. the murderer complains about how the wine had been kept in way too high a temperature and ruining the taste, which only connisseurs of wine would notice. columbo knew that a day or two before the discovery of the body there had been a very hot day of ~100 degrees and so he was able to tell that the murderer had used the cellar to kill the brother as he wouldve had to turn off the ventilation to suffocate him.
picked up the dvd set for season 3 a few days ago and im absolutely loving the show
I must watch Columbo someday.
There's a false dichotomy between using cunning trickery and being weak. Spider-Man is INCREDIBLY powerful, but using overwhelming force against his villains will usually result in hurting or killing them. He doesn't use trickery because his villains are too tanky, he uses trickery because the alternative is absolutely terrifying levels of violence. Also, Superman is often a trickster as much as he is an unstoppable force, much for the same reason. This can lead to villains going "Oh, SHIT," when they realize the hero wasn't using trickery because they were weak, they were using trickery because they were being nice.
"Then then we found out why, why this doctor, who had fought with gods and demons, why he'd run away from us and hidden. He was being kind."
While Spiderman is incredibly powerful some of the villians he encounters are too powerfull for him to stop with just his powers. Hydroman, is the one I always think about, or living electricity Elektro, Red even mentions Sandman, and let's not forget the classic one shot nothing can stop the Juggernauat. You are absolutly right that the main reason he outsmarts is to avoid collateral damage or hurting the villain but, there is definetly a cant be punched category of Spidey villain.
@@codystork3008We see that a lot with some of his more sympathetic villains, like the Lizard. In that one story where Spidey fails to save Dr. Connors' son, we see that clear as day, specially when he snaps and nearly kills the thing. Or in his fights with Mr. Negative goons.
There's also the secondary aspect of tankyness: collateral damage. The first case that comes to mind is Morlum's second appearance, where Spidey runs around like crazy looking for a place where people wouldn't be hurt by their fight.
And last but not least, some of his villains just do be that strong. See the new Rhino arc for example.
@@marcospatricio8283 I almost brought up Morlun's first appearance as an example of being too strong to punch down but, In Spiderverse him and his ilk were a lot more fragile.
A good example shown on this very channel: Superman vs. The Elite.
"Or why an old word referring to a lowly peasant is 'villain.'"
As in 'people who live in a village."
My jaw hit the floor.
Villein: in medieval England, a feudal tenant entirely subject to a lord or manor to whom he paid dues and services in return for land.
Power imbalance, much?
(PS. Much is one of Robin Hood’s Merry Men)
This is how I learned that and I'm mad. God sometimes the English language was a mistake
as far as i can tell, after people started using insulting non-tenants with the term, its meaning morphed much in the way that bugs bunny changed the definition of nimrod
Same
I'm not gonna lie, I want to use that terminology in my stories just to mess with readers. I know it would be so confusing it would distract from everything else but the clown in me wants to do it.
5:15-5:27 Reminds me of a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl.
Will: "You didn't beat me. You ignored the rules of engagement. In a fair fight I'd kill you."
Jack: "That's not much incentive for me to fight fair then, is it?"
Jack is definitely a great trickster character
@@thedragonwarrior5861 And the last thing he'd call himself is a "Hero"
@@Chokah one of the reasons I said trickster character
@@Chokah Doesn't mean he's not though. He just doesn't want anyone knowing it.
"Exactly, thats why i'm poiting this gun at you Jack"
"ah"
*jack gets his head shot off*
Odysseus will arrive shortly, in 20 years of course if he gets blown off.
I have always been with Hector, so Odysseus is a villain to me.
Given the story of Odysseus, "blown off" has 2 very different meanings.
@@xhagastok I'm curious, why are you with Hector? Most versions of the stories I hear Helen does not want to go with the Trojans, so as much as the Greeks are assholes, the Trojans are the ones who kidnapped and basically raped a woman. If it's just Hector you like then Achilles is the one who killed him, Odysseus had little say in it. Or are you just joking and I'm misreading this?
@@TempestFNG I think there are some versions that say Odysseus did it, but I agree with you on everything else
@@TempestFNG NONSENSE! Paris used Aphrodite's magic power to seduce Helen. Hector is a noble hero that protect his city. Like Achille, he was drag to the war and didn't wish to fight.
Having watched all of Columbo, I can say that the writers openly enjoyed the last seasons where the villains ask Columbo for his name.
"Lieutenant Columbo."
"No~, what's your first name?"
"Lieutenant."
Columbo openly and almost happily denies any chance of giving his first name to others.
"I'm sorry, your name is 'Sarge'?"
"Yep! Pappy always said, 'dress for the job you want.' Figured I'd just take it a step further. Heh."
"...Damn, I respect that!"
It’s in case he ever encounters Light Yagami
wouldnt it be funny if it was a major major major situation and his first name is actually lieutenant
Like Lieu Murtaugh from Family Matters.
"I had my name legally changed to Lieutenant to celebrate my promotion."
"What was your name before the promotion?"
"Sergeant."
Isn't his name Frank? I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere that he is Frank Columbo. But maybe that was only in the German Dub.
The "inside-out whodunnit" Red described is actually an established subgenre referred to as a "howcatchem". Rather than focusing on figuring out who perpetrated the crime, the audience already knows who the culprit is (and usually how they committed the crime) and the draw is in seeing how the detective character uses their wits to expose the criminal and catch them.
kinda reminds me of death note
I've also heard "howdunnit" used to refer to this trope.
kinda like ace attorney!
Monk was something of a Howcatchem in the first couple of seasons. We would see the bad guy kill someone but weren't given any context for why. In some cases, after the killer does a kill, there is an additional layer by adding a complex element off-screen. For example, we would see a man kill his wife, but when the body is discovered by the cops, the corpse is somehow moved to the neighbor's bed. So, a lot of the time, the majority of the mysteries on Monk were guessing the why and the how of a crime. For me, it was the biggest draw of the episode, but after seasons 2-3 the writers dropped that format and made it a general whodunit kind of show
@@Galvatron64 To be fair, even in the episodes where we don't see the crime, Monk still usually figures out who did it before the first commercial break because of some small detail and the draw then returns to seeing him figure out the how and the why.
“They say the first thing you notice about the Doctor…he’s always unarmed.”
For some it's also the last.
“Search “the doctor” “
“You have an entry, just like all other beings-“
“ under: cause of death”
*increasingly fast counting*
close but it's
"The first thing you will notice about the Doctor of War is he's unarmed. For many, it's also the last."
@@joshhumphrey736 I love that scene
@@joshhumphrey736
**Guards flee**
"Where are you going? He is unarmed! ... You _are_ unarmed?"
"Always."
"You stand alone?"
"Often."
"You're the one who should be afraid!"
"Never."
Special mention to El-Ahrairah, the trickster hero of the rabbits in Watership Down. "Prince With One Thousand Enemies. Should they catch you, they will kill you and eat you. But first they must catch you." A trickster hero is often a character at the bottom of the proverbial food chain (or the literal food chain, in El-Ahrairah's case) who has to use wiliness and tricksiness because they have nothing else. Trickery helps level the playing field, which is why the powerful call it "cheating."
"cheating is what the losers call technique"
Excellent example!
El-Ahrairrah is even more interesting because he's explicitly a collection of stories of whenever a rabbit managed to duck, weave and trick their way to victory despite overwhelming odds
Disney's Aladdin is in a similar boat.
I was going to bring up El-ahrairah as soon as Red started talking about B'rer Rabbit.
11:09 "We don't just want to see villains lose; we want to see them proven wrong"
if this isn't the crux of the issue for so many unsatisfying stories that setup relatable villain backstories but just end it with a fistfight
I love it when the villain actually has some good points but then the writers make them kick a puppy or something so you know they're bad
Insert every "I'm committing genocide to stop climate change" villain here.
This is WHY i cried when I saw the climatic fight of the comic series "Invincible". It was so beautiful the way the hero's way of trying to solve problem through talking first was proven correct on all counts.
Steven Universe
On one hand, yes.
One the other, that fist-fight is probably sick as hell, not gonna lie. Ever played Yakuza/Like a Dragon games?
Strength based heros: I'm going to destroy you
Trickster heros: I'm going to destroy your whole worldview
The briar patch story illustrates another interesting thing: Tricksters are not immune to trickery. That story kicks off with Brer Fox exploiting Brer Rabbit's temper and impulsiveness to make him trap himself.
Similarly, Anansi once tried to frame his son for murder, but his son rebuts that the king totally wanted this guy dead and he'll be rewarded handsomely. At which point Anansi grabs the body and goes tearing off to confess to the king, and is promptly thrown in prison.
When a trickster isn't unconditionally a hero, the audience frequently wants to see them get some kind of comeuppance, but not so much that they can never scheme again. So every once in a while, they will lose in a way they can still recover from. Even modern tricksters like Jerry Mouse and Bugs Bunny are occasionally bested, or fall to their own schemes. But these usually end with either a fade-to-black or somehow tricking their way right back out again.
True true. There's a reason we only so often get to see Cecil the Turtoise strut his stuff, the true Best to ever do it.
@@Azmodeus87i think of the airplane gremlin
Of course, that also opens the door for some truly absurd 4D chess reverse psychology. Just look at any battle from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, or any scene in Death Note with Light and L. You put two tricksters in a room with optimal conditions, they're gonna be double-crossing each other forever.
Spiderman has another layer to his trickery that you didn’t mention. He actually holds back a lot, his goading and trickery can be ways to defeat his villains without excessive force.
Well it makes sense that he holds back as one of the comics shows that when doctor octopus had taken control of Peter's body via some kind of mind swap and during a fight with scorpion hits scorpion in the jaw with a full powered punch and punches scorpion's jaw right off so Peter has to hold back or he might ending killing someone or at the very least seriously maiming them and while someone like batman would be okay with seriously maiming someone Spiderman definitely is not
Yes. Many of Spiderman's enemies are just normal people with advanced technology. Doctor Octopus' tentacles are incredibly strong, but Doc Oc himself is a normal guy. Spiderman could kill him with a single punch, which is ironically what makes fighting him so difficult.
Yeah. I don't remember where, or which villain, but I saw him go all out once, against a villain who usually manhandles him.
And it was an absolute disaster. Spiderman all but disassembled the villain.
They talked about this in the Spiderman Detail Diatribe. If Spiderman isn't quipping, you are in trouble...
@@Kartoffelkamm He fought Kingpin as Peter Parker and made it very clear that he could murder the man if he wanted to at any moment.
And yes, I mean as Peter Parker, he very deliberately took off his costume before the battle because the Kingpin made it personal.
“Ah trickster, welcome to my velvet room…”
"it truly is an unjust game, your chances of winning are close to none..."
"You truly were a remarkable guest."
First thing I thought when I saw the video title 😭
“My Velvet Room” oh no don’t tell me [P5 Spoilers!?]
"Show me your true form!"
Bugs: Of course you realize this means war.
Antagonist: Why do I hear boss music?
*Camera pans to reveal a string quartet of multiple Bugses in formal attire*
The Bolt before cutting the rope carrying the piano above the Red Eclipse:
some of the early bugs cartoons where he strikes first feel wrong, which really proves the point about trickster heroes often needing to strike second to preserve that heroism
It's been a long time since Saturday morning cartoons, so I may not have perfect knowledge, but IIRC bugs only loses when he's the instigator of the trouble.
With the exception of Cecil of course. Cecil always wins.
@@basharic3162 The only time I can think of where Bugs wins as the instigator is Duck Amok, and even then, he's only revealed at the very end of the cartoon with his trademark "Ain't I a stinker?".
The opposite of the Hero's Journey is the Trickster's Heist.
The trickster doesn't descend into the scary uncivilized world, he ascends into the dangerous civilized one. The trickster doesn't have mentors or allies, just the stuff he'd already prepared ahead of time and the tricks he uses.
A lot of Robin Hood and Till Eulenspiegel and Argo and Anansi and Coyote stories fit it, but the two stories that I've found exemplify it perfectly - Raven Stealing The Sun (Tlingit), and My Father's Dragon. Seriously, he goes in there to steal a macguffin, armed with random items, and tricks his way out of danger each time.
My favorite skit of the original Animaniacs was a nanny who wasn't OVERTLY malicious, but couldn't be goaded into throwing the first narrative punch so the Warner siblings could handle her like normal.
So they ended up calling in Slappy Squirrel, arguably a peer of the nanny and too cranky to care about who swings first, to handle the nanny so they could remain heroes.
"There were charts it was bad" I LOVED THAT SJHDHSHS
*Red puts her hand on a board with an unhealthy amount of strings and thumbtacks*
@@merrittanimation7721 do you mean like slamming it for drama/emphasis or just trying to hide it
@@fishydids YES!
Red was channeling some Unraveled energy in that episode
I don't think Descartes had this in mind when he invented the Cartesian plane (which the charts basically are), but I don't think he'd disapprove of Red's analysis of society's ideas on heroism.
There’s something inherently satisfying about a trickster hero. Their whole shtick is playing on the ego and character flaws of their opponent to basically cause them to defeat themselves.
It’s core is rooted in deceit and misdirection, which are such typically villainous traits but can still be used in a heroic way and I love it.
Basically trickster hero can do an "see how these tactics are put on you" on the villain. As in "for a crap talker, you sure don't like taking it"
That's why I love Joseph Joestar. He's a Trickser Hero in a Traditional 80's action Anime. One of my favorite bits is his "family secrete techniqe".... running for his life as fast as he can! For the record his father, grandfather, and Great Grandfather all died as martyrs in combat, which makes the fact he's quiting a fight to run for his life even more subversive for a Shonen Protagonist.
@@stephensmith7327 And so did his grandson, even if it took a while and was fixed.
@@barryfraser831 even his half-uncle was kind of a trickster, though he didn’t really play it up for comedy
@@stephensmith7327 Ah, Joseph. Still my favorite JoJo. He's so darn funny, but naturally still gets some important emotional moments for growth (RIP Ceasar).
The bit about the Columbo series never revealing his actual name brings to light a really famous comic where Light from Death Note was trying to write his name in said notebook and fails every single time, while Columbo keeps tearing him down until he finally mentions that he can see Ryuk.
And you can't even know if he truly can see it, or just deduced his presence, because that's Columbo
I can't find the comic; do you have a link?
@@imveryangryitsnotbutterI've not seen the comic, but it sounds a lot like the short "Columbo in... Death Note" by youtuber Gianni Matragrano
I've heard that you can actually see the name Frank Columbo on some of his paperwork and ID.
@@TheWrathAbove I wasn't sure if Gianni's vid was sourced from a comic or something so I kind of just made the assumption it was
Reminds me of an exchange in Pirates of the Caribbean that I love: ""You ignored the rules of engagement. In a fair fight I would have killed you." "Well that's not much incentive for me to fight fair now is it?" Being a Trickster is one way "The Smart Guy" can contribute to a team as well, because sometimes the rules are twisted to protect those who break the spirit of the rules, and in other cases it doesn't matter if you're "weaker" than your opponent if you know how to use what you do have more effectively than your opponent. Part of what makes a trickster hero is that subterfuge is generally their first strategy, not just using their wits every now and then.
"You cheated!"
"Pirate"
I think part of the appeal of tricksters (that are heroes) is the outsmarting aspect feels like something we could do. Flight and super strength are out of the question, but pulling a fast one? Maybe. And this clever deception *was* concieved of by a human, just like me!
Aladdin is a perfect example of a trickster hero. At the beginning he’s just a trickster but there are hints to his heart of gold and by the end he’s a true hero. The resolution is a trick pretending to give Jafar everything he wants all the power but instead trapping him in the lamp!
A great example
Credit to Jasmine for showing herself to be a trickster, too. From immediately playing along with "she thinks the monkey is the Sultan" to distracting Jafar during the final conflict.
@@templarw20 great point makes them a trickster power couple!
@@templarw20yes!!
And his trickster nature is what almost does him in when his web of lies is exposed. Fine character work.
"Lupin the Third: The Castle of Cagliostro" is a delightful cartoon, and it relates to this because of Lupin's motivations. Lupin is a thief - very much a trickster - and he decides he's going to steal a ton of counterfeit currency from the tiny land of Cagliostro. As the story goes on, Lupin discovers there's a woman in need of rescue; and as the story goes further, Lupin discovers exactly how evil the Count of Cagliostro is. Lupin's motivations move from selfishness to dashing scoundrelhood to actual heroism, and while the movie doesn't come right out and make a point of it, you as the viewer pick up on it at some level. It makes Lupin increasingly easy to get behind.
I always like to see castle of cagliostro as high character development for lupin(despite what the creator saying this one of last grand adventures). In the first 3 parts(and the woman named fujiko mime) lupin was very impluses and pretty selfish. Just living in the moment as seen in "mystery of mamlo". However after castle of cagliostro, lupin while still impulsive and the likes, has mature in a way and is more heroic or at least less selfish in part 4-6. Again that how like to view it.
I fricking love that movie!
Is this the same Lupin who inspired the netflix show? 😮
@@LauraAnimalgirl ... not exactly. Decades ago there were novels written about one Arsene Lupin, gentleman thief. The cartoon "Lupin the Third" is sort of a fanfiction spinoff with Arsene's grandson. It's like when someone gets the idea to do "Sherlock Holmes Jr". Anyway, that Netflix show seems to be also based on Arsene Lupin, only it's Arsene's son I think. Do seek out "The Castle of Cagliostro", it's the first cartoon directed by the "Princess Mononoke" guy (Miyazaki).
@@LauraAnimalgirl No. Lupin III is the grandson of the literary character who also inspired the Netflix version. Anime Lupin and Netflix Lupin have nothing in common outside of both being influenced by the same literary source.
When I listened to Red describing mythological trickters I noticed an interesting thing:
Mythological tricksters are often the most popular cultural characters:
- Loki is one of the most famous Norse gods
- Sun Wukong is the most recognisable Chinese hero
- Maui is the most recognisable Polynesian character
- Anansi is literally the most popular character from sub-Saharan Africa
- Coyote and Raven are what first comes to mind when talking about Indigenous American folklore
Also, one of the most popular terms for a long journey is "Odyssey" which is the title of the legend describing most of Odysseus' accomplishments.
Since time immemorial, we have liked a good rascal.
I mean looks at bugs bunny, the doctor and all in between, there is a reason red described loki as making things work through Lies, Trickery, Slapstick comedy and occasional pregnancy
even Hercules had to complete some of his labours though trickery.
We love a good underdog story, we love seeing bad things happen to people(even more so if they are bad people) because it is funny(aka why shows like total wipeout work), and it resonates with us as humans because we have to think our problems because for 99% of us we are not the fastest or strongest around(and even for those few who are generally the best in a room they are not always that way)
Tricksters are populist. They say "You don't need strength or money or connections, as long as you're *clever.*" That automatically makes them appealing to anyone who considers themselves disadvantaged.
Maui is only the most recognizable Polynesian character because Disney made a movie about him. Like... he's just in that one movie. He doesn't have a bunch of different pop culture interpretations like a lot of the others.
I loved when Doctor Aphra pulled a Briar Patch. During all the Darth Vader comic series, she wouldn't stop telling him "Please, don't throw me trough an airlock into space. That's the worst way to die I can imagine". So, when inevitably their working relationship goes sour, and Vader throws her through the airlock, she has her crew ready to pick her up before she suffocates.
I think part of what makes trickster heroes so compelling is that the trickster half of their persona is much more inherently villainous than it is heroic. Which means that when they defeat the villain it essentially says that the trickster hero is better at being the bad guy than the bad guy Even When they're the being the good guy, which is a mortal blow to any villains ego and very satisfying for the audience.
The old "You could never be me!" "Oh, no, I could be you so easily. I just don't want to."
The timing of this is so funny to me, because I was talking to a friend just this morning about how Bilbo is a trickster hero in the Hobbit. He lies, sneaks, steals, uses cleverness and taunts to deal with both the spiders and the elves, all forces stronger and meaner than he is. He’s fundamentally good, but he’s just a little guy and he has to be clever to survive (and save his friends)
I mean, that is the whole point of Bilbo though. Gandalf went looking for someone to be the thief/trickster of their group, and went with Bilbo, right?
@@9nikola yeah of course, Gandalf picked him for a reason, but he’s still good at it and a trickster hero by Red’s definition
Gandalf also does a lot of Trickster work, especially on the trolls and with Beorn.
@@RorikH that’s true! Probably because he’s partially inspired by Odin (prior to lotr) (being a wanderer in a wide hat with mysterious powers and rune carving) and Odin is a bit of a trickster god. So that tracks!
Oh dang u right!!
Red is the real trickster hero. Making an episode of trope talk thinking that it’s just gonna be another episode when she really just wants to talk about Columbo again. Genius
And Leverage
"Whatcha got there?"
Loki: "A smoothie."
God bless you, Red. XD
Right before that there's the "it fukem windy" and then after she talks about sun wukong "having the power of God and anime on his side" great memes
Never change, Red. Never change.
Joseph Joestar is such a trickster hero the narrator had to reassure readers his tendency to run away was actually courageous
My favorite Columbo scene is from the military academy episode, "By Dawn's Early Light". During a conversation, Columbo breaks through the colonel's ironclad composure, and finds a man who is deeply lonely and struggles with the futility of establishing peace and order in a world filled with humans who make such a thing impossible. Killing the victim was the only way he could keep control over the school, his own little fortress and time capsule in a world with no other need for him. He says something like, "I'll hang up my coat when there's no more war. And I suppose you'll hang up your coat when people stop hurting each other."
Columbo is about to talk about how he struggles with those thoughts too, how he talks about it with his wife, which is more of a genuine look into Columbo's personal philosophy than we've seen in the entire rest of the show- Then the phone rings, the colonel's armor is back on, Columbo is back on the trail, and the world comes crashing back in. Just that one, quiet scene of two professionals briefly abandoning their uniforms and being honest about how they really feel is SUCH good characterization.
Anyway, my favorite Trickster Hero is Lupin III. Cool as hell.
I think "trickster heroism" also speaks to us as humans because it also exemplifies the relationship between humans and other animals, or at least the animals that would be dangerous to us or otherwise difficult to overcome physically. Humans have evolved to be tricky, to make up for their physical disadvantages through tool use and brain power. A human isn't going to wrestle down a grizzly bear, nor is it going to catch a bird with its bare hands. I don't think a bear would find a bear trap "sporting", or a bird a bird snare "honorable", but these are what we use regularly to punch above our weight class. We love an underdog story, because for much of our history we have been the perpetual underdog.
And on the flip side of things, there's also the way that agriculture encouraged the centralization of social power, so you wind up with 90% of humans in every civilization constantly feeling like they're under the thumb of a few insanely powerful humans! Evolutionary psychology accounts for some of our underdog feelings by making us look up to other animals, but I don't think trickster stories would resonate quite so well if sociology wasn't so good at making us underdogs to OURSELVES, as well.
The few physical attributes that humans have that are better than average also lend themselves to more indirect tactics. While opposable thumbs are an obvious trait, I think it was our wrists that actually have a larger impact since they directly contribute to humans being one of the best animals at _throwing,_ and especially throwing with both force and precision. We're not very large, so on our own, we can often be at a range disadvantage, but pick up something and we suddenly have one of the best effective ranges out there.
Switching from our arms to our legs, we are by no means the fastest animals, not by a long shot, but we _do_ have notably high _endurance._ A common tactic for early hunters was supposedly to let their prey run away and then slowly follow them, and continue until the prey collapses from exhaustion. Seems there might be something to "slow and steady wins the race."
@@angeldude101 more like slow and sweaty won the race
@@angeldude101 Hence, David vs Goliath
@@angeldude101 to other animals, we're the serial killer that they run away from, turn around and we're still there, somehow just behind them, and we're *walking*.
A clever person, a wise man, and a strong man Find a pot of Gold. But this pot of gold is protected by a magically powerful majin. The majin says, "I will let you have the gold if you can answer me one question. Which of you 3 can make the loudest nooze with this drum?" The strong man hits the drum with a hammer as hard as he can, making a loud noise. The wise man attaches a stick to an even larger stick. Slamming it into the drum with all his might, making an even louder Bang. The clever person states, "the wise man.".
Game changer session 6 episode 1
And then the gold goes to the strong man, making the wise man question his entire existance!
NO JOKE I STARTED READING THIS AND THOUGHT “HUH THIS SOUNDS A LOT LIKE THAT ONE EPISODE OF GAMECHANGER” AND THEN LO AND BEHOLD
@@cameronjensen9397what? That doesn't even make sense why did this get any likes? Is it bots? Why dose the strong man win?
@@cameronjensen9397 this gives of the vibe of a anti-woke rizzler comment
/negative
@@topcatfanit’s a reference to the game changer episode op cites, the gimmick that episode is that the most middling result wins the point.
Grunkle Stan from Gravity Falls hits this note. His character and arc is really interesting, asking how and why a trickster acts, what does and doesn't cross the lines of good behavior and making his status as a hero ambiguous for half the show. He defeats Smugger-than-Smug Bill Cipher only by relying on his family, letting the people he needs to protect most in, and using his tricks only on his foes.
Bill Cipher being trickster: putting Dipper is a desperate situation where the Author's laptop is counting down to total data erasure, and promising to help him access it in a exchange for a puppet. When the deal was made, Bill never specified which puppet: Dipper. And the rest of the episode is Bill being creepy in Dipper's body, abusing it, while Dipper is helpless as a spirit.
Grunkle Stan as a trickster: fools Bill into believing he's his twin brother and going into his mind to get the information he needs to leave the boundaries of Gravity Falls. Once the trick is revealed, Bill finds himself trapped because the terms of the deal are unfufilled, made worse that Stan's mind is being erased with Bill in it.
There's also that episode where Ford and Dipper are trapped in a DND game and Stan wins their freedom by cheating; he stuck gum on the dice so it would fall on the desired number.
When Bill is a trickster, it's usually out of selfishness, amusement, and to sow chaos. When Stan tricks, it's to protect those he loves and to punish someone who deserves it.
That's the real trick, Bill thinks he is the smartest guy in the room and can't conceive that he could ever be tricked , which means he isn't looking out for the conman's bag-o-tricks, like the fake twin brother, or the shell game, or the old "can I just come in for a glass of water" trick.
You know what makes Bill’s defeat more satisfying? You could totally tell what was going on even before the reveal. If you look at the scene before Bill goes into his mind, the man in the cloak has five fingers.
Maybe part of the reason why the Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover worked is that both characters are foils to a colorful trickster cast, but still function by their logic.
I like the idea of someone who is typically a trickster hero, but then they get really pissed and its revealed they're incredibly powerful outside of the tricks
..Spider-Man.
Spider-Man 2
"If you want to survive there is one thing you never put in a trap... me" -Dr Who
"Would you like to share this cupcake with me?" - Jester
-The Doctor, Doctor Who*
The Irish giant.
Fionn Mac cumhaill
Or its english translation... Which is honest to goodness.
-Finn McCool.
Was a trickster hero.
He built the giants causeway to meet, and fight, another giant. When he learned how big the dude was he dressed up like a baby.
A giant baby.
And had his regular human wife talk to the giant about how small he was compared to his father.
The giant saw this baby, just a little smaller than him and imagined how big Fionn was.
Then ran for the hills.
Fionn is a trickster hero taught to all Irish kids in 1st year. He was hilariously brilliant.
You forgot the iron pan hidden in a pancakes. "Oh these are so delicious, my son love them" *Giant bites into one with an iron skillet hidden in it and breaks his tooth*
@@Chokah
O.o)/
I did forget that one. I need to find that dinner scene. I remember it having so many great moments.
Fionn was a great bout of folklore to learn about.
Oh... Now I need to find the name of the king who was immortal provided he never touched Irish soil again.
Then he ages in a * snap *
Thanks for reminding me of that!
The version I know, the Baby trick was his wife's idea. But yes, he had a habit of using his wits to not confront a problem in a head clash on but to nullify it via an indirect method.
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 oh yeah!
I knew I was missing something his wife did, I thought it was that she did all the trickster talkin'
But the whole thing was her idea. Thanks for the reminder.
(This whole myth'll be reassembled in these comments eventually.)
@@benneeds_a_name7398 And some new myths as well no doubt, that is how myths breed! People misremember, accidently import something from elsewhere or make up something to go with the flow, next thing you know, Loki McCool and his sidekick MacGyver is someone's genuine canon! 😜
Hercules: Yeah cool just hold this for a second.
Atlas: Well I'm a dumbass so SURE.
Nice to see that I wasn't the only one thinking of Hercules/Heracles in this way.
"Sure. I can clean these stables in one night."
He does get played when Jason challenged him to a lifting contest though.
I always love Columbo references. He's such a great character, and he does go up against some SLIMY guys. But he's SO MUCH FUN. I think he even went up against one of the actors who played Sherlock Holmes...which was great.
Also he arrested Kirk and Spock. Fun times.
has nothing to do with the main concept of the video (which is done great as always), but i really like how, in the clip you use where rhino throws an engine at a building and spidey swoops in to save the people about to be crushed by rubble, the mom/whoever quickly shoves the child out of the way before spidey saves her in turn. Its a quick little thing they animated, but it elevates the people being saved from props Spider-Man can pick up and put down to show he is good guy, to characters that are actually reacting to what is happening and acting based on their priorities, which isnt always done in superhero media. Makes the world feel more alive, you know? Good clip selection, and good on the animators for that.
Peter Falk also played the character with considerable charisma. "There's just one thing..." "Oh, by the way..." Columbo is one of those characters you'd want to sit in on your D&D table just to see how he'd play and would be figuring out the villain and main plot in Episode 1. And now I'm picturing Columbo playing a Mastermind Rogue...
Pathfinder 2e has an Investigator class, with an Interrogator subclass that specializes in compelling targets to answer questions and detecting lies. One of the Investigator's class feats is even called "Just One More Thing".
The most interesting thing is that his particular style of interrogation, i.e. letting people open up by playing the fool, is actually taught in police schools under the name of "Columbo's Technique".
@@Woodclaw okay, that's amazing 😂
And like a true trickster, Columbo always gives his opponent a chance to surrender, to come clean and confess to the crime. He doesn't even carry a gun (though that's mainly because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn), so all conflicts in the series are handled without violence. Even Sherlock Holmes came to blows with Moriarty on multiple occasions. No sword fighting with his nemesis like Professor Layton, no punching somebody's henchman until they confess like Batman, Columbo can get the villain to spill the beans just by talking them down. He's the ultimate trickster detective.
@@Woodclaw that's fucking sick
You brought up Columbo, but there’s another trickster detective that I think fits the trope better. Shawn Spencer from “Psych.” Not only does he trick the criminals, but he also tricked the police themselves into thinking he is a psychic when in reality, he is just incredibly hyper observant.
Indeed; and Psych is such a great (and underrated) show. :)
@@AlexArthur94 Agreed.
The Doctor from Doctor Who is a great example of a Trickster Hero. Especially his second incarnation who loved to play the fool to misdirect his opponents and uses their own strength against them.
If you listen to the BF audios, Eight is delightful at this too. Just a nancy in a frock coat until he casually wrecks your day :P
Let's not forget Seven, who also loved to play the fool to disguise his (often pretty manipulative) plans.
@@jasonblalock4429 I was going to mention Seven as well. Remembrance of the Daleks was an excellent example.
@@jasonblalock4429 I've seen Seven described as a counterpoint to the Second Doctor. Both act like clowns to hide their intelligence, the difference being that Seven always has a plan and clearly relishes in tricking his foes, whilst Two seems to save the day by accident, and seems to enjoy clowning around for the fun of it (whilst with Seven there was always a reason). Also both like their music, Two has his recorder and Seven plays the spoons.
@@livingandthriving or Curse of Fenric where he literally has to turn Ace against him for his plan to succeed.
At this point, the "hero" is just "opposed to the villain." Which can work. A lot of the time a trickster hero is at their best when opposed by a powerhouse of a villain, and that makes it admirable when the hero uses their wits to win the day. Like the Doctor, a big part of the appeal of his character is how he doesn't use force to win. His enemies do all the time. Even the smarter ones like the Master use power to win, but that makes it all the more satisfying when the Doctor wins by outwitting them or uses their own power against them.
I literally got in a fight over the definition of a hero because someone was trying to set a firm definition and then say everything outside of his definition was not a hero. Thank you for making this and making me feel more sane lol
And there’s of course Hermes, who starts getting up to trickster antics the minute he is born.
I'm betting five dollars that the "Columbo solves Death Note" meme was at least somewhat involved in making this episode.
“A trickster hero’s primary skill set is in manipulating a situation to their advantage through cunning and trickery rather than bruit force. Generally, they are in some way an underdog facing some sort of more powerful antagonist; and if they fought an antagonist on the terms that antagonist defined, they would 100% lose.”
This truly is a Joseph Joestar moment.
To be fair all the JoJo main characters expect Johnathan and arguably Joatro are trickster hero in some way.
@@starmaker75and even Jotaro has a trickster streak. Fake Tenille, both D'arbys and moments with Dio.
EDIT: spelling.
@@starmaker75 I think Joseph is the most "trickster" out of all of them though. Most JoJo battles involve bluff and misdirection, hiding what you can do or know and finding out what they can do or know. But Joseph leans the most into the Bugs Bunny nonsense. Yeah I know EsiDesi is trying to cut my net, but rather than stopping that I'll just use a magic trick to make sure it doesn't work. Yeah I won against Kars due to sheer luck, but I'll pretend I knew what I was doing just to rub salt into the wound. Yeah I'm a two ton walking muscle god but I need to sneak into this Nazi base in drag.
Joseph is the most trickster JoJo but I think Johnathan is the only one that isn't one. Even then he had some clever moments like diving deeper into that lake to take a breath with trapped air.
@@thekoifishcoyote8762 Jonathan Dio was a battle of equals, which doesn't work with trickster
Recently read a webcomic called Lavender Jack who is now in my mind the archetypical trickster hero; he isn't even introduced as a hero, we only see him at first from the perspective of his targets of vigilante justice and the detective hired to investigate him. He's physically fit but almost always overwhelmed in a directly physical fight, and has to rely entirely upon the environment and turning his enemies weapons against them. In spite of that, he'll often forgoe some of his tools to fight "honourably" in one-on-one situations, even when he's likely to lose, but equally often strikes first and without warning. He has a civilian alter ego, but he uses it much more proactively than most do, using it to gain access and continue his investigations, often in plain sight. His motivation is a mystery for much of the first season, and it takes a while for any other heroic characters to start to trust him. He's basically if Bertie Wooster became Batman and dressed up as the Phantom of the Opera while being actively hunted by Poirot. Highly recommend it.
As someone who is a Pacific Islander, first, thank you for including Maui as an example.
But rather than Maui's capture of the Sun. I feel a better example of both his trickster nature, as well as a heroic god is in the story of how he stole the secret of fire.
To sum up: Maui tricks a bunch of birds who hoarded the knowledge of fire by using a doll to make it look like he went fishing. Upon successfully learning the secret he then brands the birds as retribution for not just telling him the first time.
So, humans get fire, and birds forever have a red mark on their face. (double creation myth for the price of one)
I love Red's sarcastic voice when she's doing the "Oh, no! Please don't [fill in the blank]!" bit. I don't know what it is about it, but I just want to hear more of it.
They’re named overly sarcastic for a reason
@@IsaacAnvilreign Ah! Good point!
That's her Kyana voice. Listen to Rolling With Difficulty
@@wigglespeedturbo6324 I'll have to look into that, if only to hear more of that voice. Thanks for the recommendation.
Red: makes a trickster hero video
Me immediately: Odysseus? Odysseus? Odysseus?
Odysseus got a lot of Smart Guy and similar coverage in prior vids. I can see the focus on Prometheus.
I was thinking Zorro, but Odysseus is a good one
Can't forget our boy!
Red has stated on previous videos that Odysseus is not particularly clever, rather most people around him are appallingly witless
@@AldoHacha Both can be true.
The "trickster on behalf of others" angle is perhaps why Bugs Bunny doesn't land as well with some folks these days. Bugs in his shorts is almost always tricking the antagonist because of a slight to himself, and he's so much smarter than them that it ends up not looking like a fair fight, especially after all the times we've seen him come out on top. I enjoy Bugs, but it took this video to help me understand why some folks don't.
That’s why some of the shorts started to have Bugs be provoked by slights against other characters like Granny or Porky Pig
This is a problem with a number of "heroes" from that era. You can add Woody Woodpecker, Tweety and Jerry to that list. They just come across as smart arses at best, and just mean at worst, Whilst the supposed villains end up being sympathetic.
@@intergalactic92 Yeah, there is a reason a lot of people sympathise more with Tom and to a lesser extend Slyvester over Jerry and Tweety.
@@intergalactic92 The only reason these characters seem mean is because we're already used to them winnning. They're supposed to be underdogs that win, but once we know they'll always win they're no longer underdogs, so the predators become the underdogs. And when the character with plot armour uses whatever means they have against the underdog, they just look mean.
This was actually a problem even back then, and why the animators created Yosemite Sam. Unlike Elmer Fudd, he was obnoxious without being sympathetic.
“He can’t punch somebody into orbit to get rid of them…”
One of Todd McFarland’s last Marvel comics was Spidey vs the Hulk (grey, Mr. Fixit at the time) and he literally did just that.
Spidey had a plot induced power up and it was just hilarious to me that I remember the ONE TIME this was wrong immediately after hearing that.
10:45 Thanks for pointing out the implicit problem that beating up a "might makes right" villain basically proves the villain point even if it does often have to be done without any philosophical counterargument.
From the very start of this episode I was just thinking, "So..Robin Hood?" Which I still maintain. But I also realized by the end, "Hey isn't The Doctor (Dr Who) also a trickster hero?"
although usually when the Doctor is called a trickster, it's by the bad guys
7th definitely
wait no hold on i rewatched series 6 this week
"I am not a phantom. _I'm not a trickster._ I'm a monk!" while tricking an army
Reigen from Mob Psycho is a great example, despite having no powers and absolutely lying to people about it, he still does everything he can in his own mischievous way. Not only does he help Mob on his journey of growing up with psychic powers, he also finds ways to help his coustemers such as by giving massages, not to mention he manages to snap back to reality a bunch of delusional psychics and helps to save the world witouth really meaning to. By all accounts he is flawed and shady, and yet his nature as a good guy keeps him in check
God I love Reigen.
One of the things about Spider-Man though is that he actually *does* have the strength to just brute force most of his enemies, it’s just that he doesn’t want to straight up kill them and is constantly holding back. He relies on his wits and the terrain to compensate for the handicap he gives himself, which arguably highlights his heroic qualities more
Yeah a lot of his villains are people that were regular people that are going through some difficult times for one reason or another and not quite right in the head so he doesn't want to hurt them, he wants to save them though I think some of these nuances have gotten lost in some of the more recent iterations.
@@darcieclements4880 Yeah, that's one of the reasons I liked No Way Home so much is that it brought that aspect to the forefront of who Peter Parker is
I grew up hearing stories of Asban (the raccoon spirit) playing tricks on Odihozo (who was a giant being with no legs and dragged themself around creating riverbeds) to get them to chase Asban so as to make sure the rivers went where the people needed them, and teaching the other animals to hunt near the human settlement because humans attracted the small prey animals. Yes, I have seen Over the Hedge. Yes, I remain convinced it was a retelling of an Asban legend.
In some of the Loony Toons episodes, however, it was Bugs Bunny who instigated the fight with Elmer Fudd. For example, the time when Elmer Fudd just wanted to relax at Jello-stone National Park, and Bugs Bunny wouldn't leave him alone.
Your next line is "Trickster hero? That's Joseph Joestar!" isn't it?!
Trickster hero? That's Joseph Joestar!
WAIT, WHAT THE?!
Trickster hero? That's Joseph Joestar!
*le gasp*
At this point you gotta admire their dedication to not watching a single episode of Jojo.
He’s literally the poster boy of being a trickster hero
Joseph and a lot of JJBA works because of the trickery done by a lot of the characters. There’s too many fights where the heroes win because they outsmart their enemies. Even Joseph’s secret technique is a way of tricking his enemies.
Anansi isn't the only trickster hero that west Africa has. Nigeria and, more specifically, the Yoruba region where I'm from also has a trickster god called Esu. He also hold triple duty as he is also a psychopomp and messenger, kind of like Hermes, but then he also gets slotted into the devil role after colonisation and the "fun" stuff happened like loki did
He sounds really interesting
You might think that Superman is the antithesis of a Trickster. But he’s actually much more of a trickster than given credit for.
Not only does he play up the Clark Kent facade to gaslight them into thinking he’s not Superman, but he’s always involved in several hijinks to trick both friends and foes all the time. One of his greatest villains is a virtual GOD who he has to outwit in order to defeat on a regular basis because he can’t overpower him with strength alone.
There's a pretty strong folkloric tradition of powerful warrior heroes who nevertheless use trickery sometimes against opponents even more powerful than them. Red mentions Sun Wukong and Odin here, but Hercules is another famous example, and arguably Krishna.
true. I think it was in All-Star Superman? He basically had to navigate a prison riot and stop Parasite all while not revealing his identity to Lex Luthor, who's smart enough to put pieces together (thankfully, he's so self absorbed, he doesn't notice)
In Superman The Animated Series, there is a surprising amount of villains who are defeated by Sups not by raw strenght but with guile. Very often villains that he can't directly attack for whatever reason.
Lets not forget that Superman consistently bested Mr Mxyzptlk, a cosmic trickster.
I mentioned earlier the bit in Superman II where he outfoxes Zod and Co. Even playing Luthor like a fiddle to do it. While it doesn't get the kind of spotlight it probably should, Supes is no dummy and does know how to use his head.
If I recall correctly, a lot of his work is actually about doing journalism and getting evidence in the old series.
I'll always think of the Hogan's Heroes series when thinking about Trickster Heroes, especially Colonel Hogan. The heroes seem to be helpless pows, stuck in an 'inescapable' prison camp. But through secrets and Hogan's plans, they do much to disrupt the Nazis in power and help some people along the way. I think you'd have fun watching it. There's definitely some stuff you'd find iffy, but overall there's a lot that can be enjoyed from it.
I remember back in AvX comics, Spider-Man tried using his full strength (that he usually holds back on) against a Phoenix-powered Colossus and Magik, and he ends up with a bunch of broken bones. There he is, barely able to talk because his jaw is dislocated, and he manages to convince the two of them that they'd be better off fighting each other instead of him, and it works. He figures out during the quipversation that they are both so overprotective of each other that it would only take a little nudge to make them want to beat the Phoenix out of the other one for their sake.
That's actually so touching, as well as clever!
I've always loved tricksters as heroes because they have to walk such a fine line. They have to be wheedling without being smarmy, confident without being boastful, and intelligent/quick thinking without being a know-it-all. Ferris Beuller is such a good example of this. The writers/casting team said Ferris had to have enough charisma and self-reflection for the audience to want him to get away with his shenanigans otherwise he would come across as a self-absorbed jerk.
Honestly, I still thought of Ferris as a self-absorbed jerk. So I guess it didn't work on everyone.
I can always enjoy a quippy hero (when they're good) because it adds more of a personality to the hero
6:45 I know this is irrelevant but I love how the mom pushes the kid out of the way in this clip. Showing how normal people can be heroic even when not on the scale of the supers instead of just sitting there and waiting to be saved.
one of my favorite trickster heroes is Joseph Joestar from JoJo. What really sold me on him was the reveal that he was a trickster type hero. The previous protagonist, Johnathan Joestar, was an incredibly noble and kind person who always faced threats head on and only fought people on equal ground, using only his determination to help him win fights. Joseph's first fight involves him pulling a gun on a vampire, tricking him into destroying a mirror thinking that it was Joseph, trying to blow up said vampire by strapping grenades this scarf when he wasn't looking, when he exhausts his options Joseph pulls out the now legendary Secret Joestar Technique and runs away, and lets not forget his iconic "Your Next Line Is" that always signifies that he's figured out his opponent so well he can guess what he's going to say.
And when in doubt, he acts like his random good fortune was his plan all along!
I suspect that Trickster Heroes are such a popular archetype in mythology and folklore because their exploits are more memorable, and more fun to tell. Even the stronger heroes get occasional trickster episodes because it's simply more interesting. Heracles winning at wrestling because he's stronger isn't much of a story to remember; winning at wrestling because he's strong, and knows to lift his son-of-Gaia opponent off the ground so he doesn't regenerate, is more of a story. Heracles tricking Atlas into taking the sky back onto his shoulders because he "just needs to shift his cloak" is truly memorable.
My favorite part of "The Incredibles" is when Mr Incredible tricks the robot into destroying itself.
It's especially interesting and neat since that's not how he usually fights. Most of the time he's shown to just use his super strength to fight and solve problems
@@thedragonwarrior5861 Exactly why it's my favorite part. When pitted against an opponent he cannot defeat using his usual tactics, he had the mental flexibility to find an alternative solution.
joseph joestar is my absolute favourite example of this trope, he bluffs his way through the story so hard that when the main villain is defeated by sheer luck he thinks it must've been joseph's plan all along and joseph just to rub it in pretends it was
It's made even funnier when you consider that afterwards, Kars became frozen solid in space for the rest of time, and he only "eventually" stopped thinking, which implies that he probably spent an unimaginable amount of time thinking back to his fight with JoJo and trying to figure out how the fuck he managed to plan for every single thing that happened, I wonder if he ever managed to figure out it was just a bluff?
does it count if he tricks them by being completely insane?
His brain's overloaded, it has a chocolate coating
textbook case for Sigmund Freud,
Freakazoid! Freakazoid!
I like to image those "insane" heroes are putting on a mask so that their opponents's guard is lower.
Is it really a trick if even he can't predict what he's going to do?
@@starmaker75 Freakazoid, at least, is truly insane.
@@starmaker75 Freakazoid saw all of the internet in a few seconds. He's not putting on a mask, he's just without a single marble that is remaining unlost.
Check out Dexter Douglas! Nerd computer ace!
Was surfing on the internet and got zapped to cyberspace!
He turned into the Freakazoid! He's strong and super quick!
He drives the villains crazy cos he's a lunatic!
I can get on-board with almost all of this, but the archetypal trickster hero is Robin Hood. He robs the rich to feed the poor, often doing so via trickery and disguise rather than straight-up brute force. Sure, he and his Merry Men might shoot arrows or thwack people with quarterstaffs, but usually his victories come as a matter of outsmarting Prince John, Guy of Gisborne, the Sheriff of Nottingham, or whatever other opponent he's facing. He often turns enemies into friends after a friendly contest where one party plays a trick on the other and they all have a good laugh about it. It's not an accident that Disney's animated Robin Hood is an anthropomorphic fox.
I love Brare Rabbit the hare, one of my favourite series of stories as a kid. Currently 13 , so not too long ago.
"You realize that this is not going to go unchallenged."
Bugs Bunny, Barbary-Coast Bunny - 1954
In reference to what you said about tricksters relying on the villain’s agency, I heard a street magician once observe that the best cons make the victim think they are doing the conning. Partly because it plays to ego, partly because if there’s always a sucker but it’s someone else, it can’t be you, and partly because once you realize the con it’s a lot harder to go for help and admit what you were expecting. It’s a lot harder to con an honest person (not counting cons that prey on types of ignorance in vulnerable populations like computer scams for the elderly). Villains on the other hand will jump at an underhanded opportunity to gain an advantage without noticing that they’re the sucker.
Man, I've never thought of Columbo as a trickster hero, but you're 100% right and it explains why that character is so lovable.
The line about Superman punching somebody into orbit was a reference to "Superman vs the Elite" wasn't it? I know you've talked about it before, and that's a classic example of Superman being a trickster hero. Something he's perfectly capable of being if he needs to.
Hercules was known for using cunning and trickery. Cleaning a stable with a river, having his nephew/good boy Iolaeus burn the Hydra, getting Atlas to get the apples from his daughters AND getting him to take the sky back by pretending to drop it ...
He also beat at least a few of his trials by simply asking nicely.
A little "please" and "thank you" can get you a long way.
@@DinsRune It can get a girdle from an Amazon. (As opposed to ordering one from Amazon.)
Ultimately, the central concept of "hero" is "aspirational figure". "They're my hero" can be said of just about anyone, even a flagrant villain (though probably not a villein!). A hero does what ordinary people don't, and frequently can't, but wish they could - or at least that someone would.
For some reason I can't make an independent comment, but can add on to other comments, so to expand on your comment, I would add that the title character from Hogan's Heroes is absolutely a Trickster Hero (and also a rare male example of the honey trap - Col. Robert E Hogan is dashingly handsome and has been able to distract and use female Gestapo agents sent to interrogate and use HIM) who uses his wits and extensive contacts (and optimal use of the varied abilities of the men serving under him) to defeat the WW2 Nazi war machine under the alias, Papa Bear, while he pretends that he and his men are ordinary POWs, unable to be able to do any of the things the super spy Papa Bear is accused of.
If you want a good trickster, fighting the ultimate good fight, Col Hogan and the Unsung Heroes are it. Also, the Germans all come out of it looking completely stupid and incompetent for the most part, but sometimes the worst Nazis do show up, and the crazy schemes are particularly satisfying then (off screen deaths for that bunch).
@@marieroberts5664 The example I considered giving was Robin Hood - greatest archer in the world, but also a colossal underdog, so uses ambushes and misdirections to wage a guerilla campaign against the corrupt nobles, redistributing their wealth to the poor.
@@rmsgrey absolutely! And several people have that person as their 'go to'... But the good Col Hogan has been forgotten in this thread, and I figure raising his profile among those who love a trickster and may want to see what a completely selfless hero version looks like; he chooses to stay behind and run the most successful escape, rescue and sabotage organization of the war, which means that if he's caught, it's torture and execution for him. Furthermore, he shares all the hardships and works alongside them for missions, even tho his rank entitles him to better treatment, accommodations and less work.
I guess you can tell he's my hero, and a bit of a crush for 5 year old me, back in 1966.
This is basically the litterary distinction between Classical heroes, and Modern Heroes. Classical = can perform Heroic deeds, Modern = Perform deeds for Heroic reasons.
Coyote: "it fucken wimdy"
Ravens: "let's go steal some fire about it"
3:57
"We need a miracle"
"No, we need to cheat"
One of my favorite examples of trickster heroics is the show "Hogan's Heroes." Pitting the main characters against the nazis immediately marks them as heroes, their status as Luft-stalag POW's makes them underdogs, and their easy camaraderie makes them incredibly easy to like. And while their antics are obviously of the hyperbolic kind (mostly due to it be a screw-ball sitcom), their schemes are always full of easily appreciated cunning and guile :)
Thank U for talking about Briar Rabbit, Song of the South & Splash Mountain might B regulated to history’s dust bin, but the stories still have value!
the good news is that most of them are just old folk tales anyway, uncomfortable 19th century retellings and disney adaptations aside. i remember i had a picture book about the tar baby story with some really sick psychedelic looking illustrations that i would read and reread all the time.
This is a fun trope, and I do enjoy it a lot.
I just briefly got distracted by that one guy in the "Detective Columbo" clips that made me think "IS THAT MISTER SPOCK?!"
Yes, yes it is.
Columbo has taken down Spock, Kirk, Blofeld and Jonny Cash
That clip certainly made me do a double-take. Intellectually, I understand Leonard Nimoy was a normal human man with normal human ears, but it was still weird seeing him like that.
The Doctor from Doctor Who is one of, if not THE best trickster hero around. Every time they defeat an enemy, they use the enemies told against them, and the resolution to one of the earliest episodes starts with them looking almost directly into camera and saying "yes! That's it! We'll cause trouble!"
I especially love when the show references all the mythically/historic characters that may be The Doctor, or at least based on him, like Merlin or Santa. I would not be shocked if someday in a comic or audio story River Song implies that Loki was actually based on a very long weekend The Doctor spent bouncing through Norse history.
A topic that lets Red talk about Leverage AND Columbo? Stellar! Now if only Reboot had a trickster hero . . .
We actually do find out Columbo's first name in the series pilot. Its never said in dialogue, but we see it printed on his police ID briefly: "Frank"
And we meet his wife, but not in the series. She is the protagonist in a spinoff series that lasted a few seasons. Played by a 20 year old Kate Mulgrew. Who would later go on to play Captain Janeway in Star Trek Voyager.
I have heard that in an episode Columbo mentions her as "that woman running around pretending to be my wife".
@@Mansplainer2099-jy8ps the spinoff didn't work well. By the last season they had completely renamed and scrubbed all reference to Columbo from the series.
Which makes senses, if you've seen episodes of the show. Kate Mulgrew was a great actor even back then. But a 20 year old trying to play a middle aged woman was a bad starting point. And the writers never figured out how to make her be Mrs Columbo and Kate Columbo, mystery-solver. Eventually, they just gave up, and removed the Columbo references entirely.
The line about "that woman impersonating my wife" is a tongue in cheek reference by the Columbo writers to the Mrs Columbo series having to drop it's connection to Columbo to make any sense
@@andrewb1921 I see, I figured it would be something along those lines.
"Ooh~ Now i get to be NASTY" is my favorite brand of protagonist. Just, very chill until poked, then watch out!
Heroism is like dragons. Both far too big and Vague to make concrete now
😂 not wrong at all
But still somehow extremely recognizable
Even Superman sometimes uses trickery. Like against Mr Mxyscwhatshisface.
"it's called a hustle, sweetheart."
I love it when a trickster hero is just a high-ranking commanding officer. Because on the one hand, it gives us some fun moments of the lower enlisted or lieutenants pull a prank or do something devious to their CO and the CO laughs and talks about how they used to do something similar. But also, it makes sense. Commanders have to be tricksters. "Fighting fair" means getting people killed and losing battles. You can easily align their trickster behaviors to selflessness, even if they disagree with the war, because they're just trying to keep their men alive. And their position as commander makes sense because you would absolutely promote someone who was clever and won battles with minimal losses. It flows together so nicely. You can also so easily have the CO "punish" the protagonists who are also trickster heroes by giving them difficult and dangerous tasks, but the CO only does this because they know our heroes can handle it. After all, our heroes will find those tricky and clever ways of solving the problem.
This was often done in Star Wars the Clone Wars. Anakin was a trickster commander, his chosen second in command, Rex, was also a trickster, and they valued people like Fives, Echo, Kix, and so on who thought outside the box. This was often contrasted with the "Good soldier follow orders" thing most clones had going on.
Perhaps its because I've been browsing clips of House but I think he fits this trope in an interesting way. There isn't normally a villain in an episode of House MD. Instead his trickery is aimed at the protocols of the hospital or a lying patient or family member.