"This story does not have a happy ending. It does not have a happy beginning. And there are precious few happy things in the middle" -The first page of A Series of Unfortunate Events.
@@CadanL I didn't read the books much, but the TV show has convinced me I should, as well as the Lemony Snicket prequels. I just wished they used the correct pluralization of Octopus.
The doomed protagonist is common. But what changes them into a doomed HERO is when they say, "I can't change my story. I've seen the ending. But I can change yours."
"It didn't take long for Reach to fall; our enemy was ruthless, efficient. But they weren't nearly fast enough, for you had already passed the torch, and because of you we found Halo, unlocked its secrets, shattered our enemies' resolve. Our victory - your victory - was so close. I wish you could have lived to see it. "But you belong to Reach. Your body, your armour, all burned and turned to glass. Everything. Except your courage. That, you gave to us, and with it we can rebuild."
Church/Epsilons Last Words - Red vs Blue: "Hey guys... if you're hearing this then it means you did it. You won. You kicked the shit out of Hargrove's forces. I knew you could. But this is my last stop. See, when I came into this world, I was really just a collection of somebody else's memories." "But with your help, these memories... they-they took form! They became my voice, my personality. And, after a while, I... I began to make brand new memories of my own. All of these things are what make me who I am... but they're also holding me back. I can't run this suit as Epsilon, but if I erase my memories, if I... deconstruct myself, the fragments I'll leave behind will have the strength to get you through this. I believe that. "I wish that there was another way. But I'm leaving this message, as well as others, in the hopes that you'll understand why I have to go this time...hehe, it was actually Doyle who made me realize something that I've never thought of before. There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. "But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith." (Cut to black. The sound of shattering glass is heard as Epsilon fragments himself.) "Ain't that a bitch."
Oedipus: I'm going to find the source of this plague and give him what he deserves like the good king I am! *later* Oedipus: By Zeus this can't be happening.
I think it works for a few reasons. 1. It is a Disney family feature. There is a low expectation they will commit to killing a non-villain. 2. His entire personality for a large part of the film is being a larger than life, mischievous, habitual liar. By the time his full personality and character growth comes in you probably forgot that line. 3. He did die. He chose self-sacrifice without any expectations of surviving or coming back. She thought she lost the one thing that could save him. The emotions they both felt were authentic and probably will have long-term effects on them. 4. After everything both characters have been through in life, they deserve to be happy with the person that helped them through the struggle.
@@sarahtaylor4264 also and this is an unsubtle excuse to recommend the Tangled TV show, Rapunzel's and Eugene's relationship is a good and lasting one, and even when they do go through hardship, personal or otherwise, they're there for each other, and its meaningful because as you said; the actual death, loss, and grief they felt was real, brief, but real.
I think Tangled is a bad example of this trope tbh cause there's not really any good reason for Eugene to tell us what's gonna happen via narration, and I think most people gloss over it and forget about it pretty much immediately. This trope exists to build up anticipation throughout a film, that by telling us how the story will end we will focus more on how they're gonna get there rather than the destination, but Tangled doesn't really do that and the viewing experience would be largely the same if you'd cut the narration in the beginning. Still a solid movie but not a good use of the trope.
Hadestown did this *SO* brilliantly. The musical basically tells us on the first song, "This is the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, it's gonna end how it always ends, but that doesn't matter, we're gonna tell it again." And, the first time I listened to the musical, by the time "doubt comes in" starts playing I was hoping beyond hope that the story would be different this time, even if they told me it wouldn't. It hurt my heart when the inevitable happened.
This is something that I always find interesting about re-reading very well-written stories. Even though you always remember what happened in the narrative last time (unless you have a really buggy memory like me!), there's still great satisfaction in revisiting the journey, admiring the cleverness of the author, and sometimes even picking up on Easter eggs & clever things that you missed in the other read-throughs? In this way, could we say that any sufficiently well-written narrative partakes of some of the elements of a "doomed hero" story, purely due to rewatch/re-read value...? 🤔
Red's voice softening a bit after saying "we can always choose to be kind, and it will always matter" got to me, theres a genuine beauty in the fact that good can always have an impact, even if it seems hopeless.
Ya know I’ve always thought of Link as a great example of a doomed hero. While he doesn’t die in the end, his fate *is* sealed. He’s always going to be the Triforce of courage. He’s always going to have to face Ganon. The fate of Hyrule or wherever he is will always rest on his shoulders. His life will always be to fulfill his role as the Triforce of courage, endlessly repeating. But Link still faces it, he still charges forward no matter what because he knows he’s the only one who can. There’s such an undercurrent of tragedy and sadness is every Zelda game because of that fixed fate, but there’s also so much beauty because of the hero that Link is. He’s able to connect to all corners of Hyrule, to all the people and the earth. There is such a profound sadness because Link is forever bound to his fate, but he’s also so heroic that the beauty of it all outshines the darkness. Ya know????
There's an aspect of the fan comic *A Tale of Two Rulers* which dwells on this; Link's memories keep returning to each successive generation of heroes, and everything he's seen in every lifetime scar his reincarnations into muteness. Link's current incarnation in the comic is being watched by several people who don't want them to awaken simply because the innocent, playful child will one more become the silent protagonist, and it terrifies them.
Link is still very young by the end of the games though, and given that calamity only strikes once or twice a generation he doesn't really have his whole life written. There's the theory of the skeleton guy in Twilight's Princess being Ocarina of Time's Link, having lived a full life after his adventures are over, but leaving behind his spirit to pass on his knowledge to the next one. I'd like to think all the Links get to live a full life after the credits roll, so their destiny is more of a fixed first adventure stopping Ganon, rather than being bound to live their whole life as the hero of hyrule because fate said so.
@@arturomacor3615 Nah, the theory goes that the Hero of Time became a Stalfos because he died prematurely in a forest, with the acceptance of his death taking form as Majora's Mask
Well damn, that's actually kinda beautifully heartbreaking... I was always sad to finish a Legend of Zelda game as a kid-maybe part of me knew that the only freedom Link ever got was while the adventure was still ongoing? (Probably not, I was probably sad that my fun game was "done," and there was not much "new" from it anymore. I hadn't yet figured out the joys of replaying.)
The "this is the story of how I died trope" being subverted so often really makes it its own trope. My immediate thought when this was brought up was the movie Megamind, and they did it pretty well.
My favorite of these was Fallen, largely because it has a messed up twist... It opens up with Denzel Washington's (I think) voice saying this is the story of the time he "almost died". We then have a long mystery that drifts into the occult as the detective played by Washington gradually realizes that the various murders happening around him are the work of a demon, one that is able to possess people just by having its present host touch the new host. Washington's character is too strong to possess through touch, so it taunts him instead, and gradually reveals more about itself. It eventually becomes clear that the only way the demon can possess him is if its existing host dies: a demon can only survive for a few seconds outside a host, but the danger increases its ability to enter anyone nearby. If it's alone with Washington, and can immobilize him so he can't get away, it may be able to kill its host and jump into him. Washington finally lets it get him alone, fatally shoots its host, then sits there watching the host die while smoking cigarettes laced with a deadly poison that will take at most another minute or so. Host dies, demon possesses Washington, desperately tries to dash out and at least get far enough out that it can find someone or something else to possess. The story ends drifting up from Washington's body, with the narration talking of how he'd finally been defeated, outsmarted by a mere mortal... ohh, you forgot something didn't you. As a cat arrogantly walks out from behind the cabin, the demon reminds the audience that he said he was going to tell them about the time he *almost* died. Quite a unique spin, starting out looking like a deliberate subversion, letting the very memory of the opening fade, then bringing it back only to reveal that the one that's not-quite-doomed is the villain, not the hero.
So the best manipulators have disorders? So be it. As one once sayed there is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the ripper (men varrie more and if the difference will be good or bad is random).
The unfortunate thing about that is that "try to predict future stuff" - with significant emphasis on the bad stuff because getting eaten is more bad than getting surprise cake/date/promotion is good - seems to literally be the primary function of our brains; and the more interesting, human bits of it, while able to solve more interesting problems than animals can, are also great at imagining increasingly comprehensive, complex, and _unlikely_ possibilities for things to possibly go wrong. Basically, it's almost a miracle humans don't ALL run around panicking with the biggest and most general of generalized anxiety disorders at all times.
@@gunarsmiezis9321 yes. And frequently they're caused by early childhood trauma. Predicting the future turns to controlling the future to stay safe. It is commonly a pathology.
Her inclusion of that in this video makes me even more excited to watch the campaign! I saw a clip of the campaign the other week and knew instantly that it was going to be the next one that I listened to
@@JiroTheFro You're in for a treat. I really like Critical Role in general, but the combination of Brennan as DM with this cast and the doomed, extremely high-stakes setting makes it 100% my favorite thing they've ever done. Matt might be a master of worldbuilding and storytelling but the intensity that Brennan can reach is just breathtaking.
I think the best/worst part about the case of Halo Reach is the objective of the last mission: "Survive". It's implicitely telling you that you can't win, you can only try to last as long as possible and take as many covenant with you as you can. It's an amazing end to the game both narratively and as a test of the skills you've accumulated throughout the game. You knew it was comming and inevitable but with this title the game is telling you: "This is the moment it all falls, show us how it ends". Perfect.
15:21 "Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." You didn't need to personally attack me so casually like that, Red.
I got diagnosed with Anxiety quite recently, which I genuinely didn't think I had, but this is the first thing I've seen which made me realize "oh shit I actually do have it bad", because I literally do that all the time. I'll lock my car and test the door almost every time - if I forget (or can't actively remember testing it), I'll walk back to my car to make sure I locked it. I've never forgotten to lock it, you would think that I did once and now I'm paranoid because I've experienced getting my car stolen, but I haven't - it's just one of a myriad of things that I'm conscious *could* happen.
"This taps into an unfortunate truth of being alive, which is that we can't predict when bad things are going to happen to us. Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." Quote of the day.
Especially because of the list of pure existential dread sources of damger is so long and unstoppable, just from space alone you have asteroids & impactors, alien invasion, gamma ray bursts, rouge black holes, and zero state decay, several of which travel at the speed of light and 1 second its a beautiful day and the next earth as a planet is either sterilized or deleted from existence because the laws of physics rewrote themselves. Fortunately all of this stuff has astronomically low odds of actually happening so its more of just anxiety fuel than genuine issues to keep yourself up at night. (The risk of being in a car accident should scare you way more than the risk of an alien invasion)
I think Hector from Pixar's Coco is written almost like a doomed hero. He sacrifices his chance of seeing his daughter in the afterlife to save Miguel. He willingly lets himself be forgotten not knowing that Coco had his photo all along. This makes his sacrifice genuine and wholesome and it makes my eyes cry.
the one where they took care of kids because their parents arent coming from them while the world is ending and some super heros are trying to stop it?
I love your Trope Talks because you don't just give a definition and some examples. You talk about all aspects of the trope. It's positives and negatives, how it can be subverted for a good effect, how the trope interacts with the writer and "audience" members. It is some much more in depth to why the trope matters, at at least why it is often used. You even usually try to give a little moral encouragement or emotional support if you can. Thank you for making more than just "content". Thank you for making something beautiful.
@@missously2088 I kinda like it though. She doesn't talk about the already obvious examples and even goes for some more underrated stories where they execute a trope well. Of course, she still references other popular shows especially if it is a good example Star Wars or ATLA is just a few examples (and the only ones I can remember heh...)
This is part of why I love the musical Hadestown, it’s the story of Orpheus and Eurydice and the first song repeats over and over “it’s a sad song, it’s a tragedy” with the most upbeat melody you’ve ever heard, so you know how it’s going to end and throughout you get little hints about how their beautiful relationship falls apart, and then they do, but they come back together and it seems like everything is going to work out, all Orpheus needs to do is walk forward and not look back. And then he looks back. And the first song starts again but it’s slow and so tragic but he told you this is how it ends and we still chose to watch it, so you can’t quite bring yourself to cry. But it picks back up again saying the virtue of the story is not the happy ending, but in the journey of hoping it will work out somehow So yeah go listen to hadestown, you can get the entire story in the songs and every song is a banger
Hadestown explained so well what I’d been trying to articulate to my friends about why stories like Orpheus and Eurydice are timeless in their tragedy. Like you said, we KNOW how the story ends. We know why Orpheus will lose Eurydice. But we keep listening again and again, almost hoping that it won’t end tragically. It’s sort of a “maybe, maybe this time it will end alright” even though deep down we know it never will.
"Eurydice," not Euripides 😉 And yeah, Hadestown is the absolute BEST! My husband took me to go see it in person last month for my birthday. 😄 Even knowing all the music and knowing to expect something amazing it STILL manages to exceed expectations when you see it live, it is something special.
‘Cause here’s the thing To know how it ends And still begin to sing it again As if it might turn out this time I learned that from a friend of mine’ And the repeated ‘we’re gonna sing it again’ God i live this musical. We dont watch it or listen to it because we think they might get a happy ending, but because in the process so many things change and we can learn so much from them. Some people say that at the end everything’s fucked and nothing’s better than before, but i think thats dumb. At least one thing changed, now there’s hope. Now there’s the idea of change. They no longer sit by and let life go, now they can change life for themselves. The workers can revolt. Persephone can fix her marriage. Hades can be a better king. Orpheus failed to save his love, but he succeeded in inspiring the people of the underground.
“While we spend most of our lives caring for ourselves and driving our own narratives, at the end of the day, no matter what the night holds and what secret tragedies might be lurking for us, we can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter.” I honestly love this quote because being kind can show a lot about a person. It is very easy to be mean, especially in this day and age, so choosing to be kind when sometimes this world can show a lack of kindness can mean a lot.
On surprising victories: in a writing for kids and young adults class, my lecturer taught us that middle grade fiction doesn't have to have a happy ending, but it does need to leave the reader with hope. Your characters can stare into the abyss and the abyss can stare back, as long as their friends are behind them, or they come to terms with something, or *anything else* in the story for the kid to think "yes things can be sad, but also... happy?"
Love this take. Some of my favorite media ends sadly but with people accepting their situation and choosing to continue on. Bittersweet is such a nice flavor.
kids and young adult writing class? What young adult is grouped in with kids? As a kid, I read adult level books because kid books were so bad. "Middle grade" fiction? Sounds absurd..... As a 3rd grader, I was reading stuff with no hope, with hope, and with tons of other themes, because I read just books.... and a good book can be good in a multitude of ways and doesn't need to be constrained for 'middle graders.' As a kid, I honestly hated how adults would do stuff like this; they honestly hold kids back by making their development so slow and oafish. What happens when you just do your own thing and ignore adults? You get a grade 12 reading level in 2nd grade; and yet oafish teachers will tell me "You can't read this, it is too hard." Adults are just so out of touch of what being a kid actually is like, despite them once being kids. Children develop mentally a lot faster than people think, and the only reason they don't is because of this massive hampering and holding them back, of trying to force them into the preconceived mold that adults have for children
"Everyone dies alone. But, if you *mean* something to someone... if you help someone... or loved someone... if even a single person remembers you... then maybe you never really die at all. "
Reminds me of how ancestors are given more importance in tragic times and disadvantaged countries. Dia de los Muertos is all about remembering the dead, which is a concept so meaningful to me that I wish it was a worldwide thing because im not Mexican. As a side note, I have heard the reason many latinos have multiple middle-names is due to ingraining the names of their ancestors into their newborns, kind of like how royals would use roman numerals to differentiate their lineages.
@@ArchSchizo funnily enough ancestor veneration used to be big in Europe their was once a time when European grave yards for at least the wealthy and upper middle class had mausoleums dedicated to ancestor’s.
@@ArchSchizo Latins usually receive both the name of their mother and father, and sometimes they get multiple first names, and when they marry they get their partner's name at the end. for example my mother was called Rosa Olivia (first name) Lima (mother's name) da Silva (father's name) Oliveira (married name). usually only the father's name is passed down, but some people like to mix it up (like women pass their mother's name and men pass their father's name, or they just pass the name they like the most). sometimes only the women will add the married name to the end, but sometimes the man will also include his wife name at the end. Royal families were fun because instead of a single lineage like English Royalty, they carried the name of every single lineage they were related to, some names could be 30+ names long.
You know, one of my favorite stories is actually TWO of the "doomed hero" types at once, and it came from an unexpected place: Halo Reach. It's a prequel, and lore-savvy nerds know Reach falls. In addition, if memory serves, the game is pretty upfront about the fact that your character's going to die, too. The story then tells, in parallel, the story of a world struggling against overwhelming force, and your team, who each fight as hard as they're able to try and save as many as they can. The resolution ends where you knew it would - the heroes and the world they're on both die. But, we get our resolution as our character manages to secure the information that we know leads to the rest of the series - the "prequel" facet of the story both secures its doom and ensures that the player knows that their character's heroic sacrifice will win the war, eventually.
Oh yeah. The first scene is of a green field with your character's helmet half buried. Very up-front about the direction of the story, but it also shows that life returned to Reach. Also, I just love the last level, where all you have left to do is take as many as you can with you. I remember there being no music at all, just the sounds of battle. It's been awhile, so I don't remember how accurate that is, but it's a testament to that scene's tone that that's how I remember it.
You don’t even need to be that lore savvy. Pretty sure the opening crawl, or at least the manual, of Halo CE says you are playing as the last Spartan fleeing from the Fall of Reach.
One really good example of an apocalypse log that I don’t hear people talk about very much outside the fandom is SCP-5000. In the universe of the SCP Foundation, this entry fits perfectly into the niche of what an apocalypse log is supposed to accomplish. I highly reccommend that you go read it if you haven’t already, and if you’re unfamiliar with SCP lore, read some of the wiki’s introductory posts for some background info.
I came into this expecting a nice foray into technical writing, and I ended up with a deep contemplation and psychoanalysis of catharsis, suffering, hope, and sacrifice… What was it Iroh said? “You know what’s better than finding something you were looking for? Finding something you /weren’t/ looking for at a great bargain!” Love y’all’s content, Red!
there was also this one line when he was flirting with the fortune teller when he and zuko were hunting the avatar with the bounty hunter on the shirzu. ""At my age, there Is only one big suprise left, and I'd just as soon leave It a mystery." You see, the audience does not need every story to have a definite ending. Some things can just be left up for interpretation and speculation.
I think this trope does pair very well with the "Last Stand" trope. Having a character know he is doomed but still deciding to stand his ground because a great variety of reasons is something I find very, very touching. If you pair this to the "guardian" trope you can get something very emotional.
Last Stand is such an underrated trope and always gets me. I think it goes under the radar for a lot of people bc it often applies to side characters while the focus is on a hero saving the day, like in Star Wars, how every pilot doing the trench run watched the ones before them get shot down but still went in after them anyway because failure simply wasn't an option.
I think a lot of people roll their eyes at "the last stand" trope. But it gets me Every. Single. Time. In all of its variations, and every iteration of "just a little longer" I fall for it and love it
I once read a great ATLA reincarnation time loop fanfic from Azula's perspective. It was really tragic as all her efforts to live past the age of 15 turned her into the heartless version of herself from the show. Since we know she lives on in the show, we know that when she actually succeeds, it will be the gut-wrenchingly awful way that it happens in the show. The fic does give her a chance to put herself back together again afterwards, and even gives her a semi-happy ending with Ty Lee. It's a great fic.
My first experience with doomed heroes was Halo: Reach. Reach literally opens with a flash forward of your character’s helmet, visor shattered, abandoned in a desolate wasteland. Despite knowing that Reach will be glassed and Noble team will die, Reach remains compelling through the tragedy of their futile struggle. There’s a level in the game where you need to sneak aboard a spaceship to detonate a rigged slip-space drive to destroy a massive super carrier. The whole time I was thinking “Will this not work in the end? We can’t succeed. Reach falls in the end”. Then at the end of the level, a major character stays behind to detonate the drive, wiping out the carrier. And then in response to the lost carrier, the Covenant sends an entire fleet to annihilate the planet. You complete your mission, but it turned out to be in vain. The game even comments on the tragedy of knowing the ending. Carter the team leader says “Jorge died thinking he saved the planet. We should all be so lucky”.
To add to this, Jorge is a Spartan-II, with the rest of the main team being Spartan-IIIs. At the time, SPARTAN-IIs were thought to be invincible (mainly because any Spartan-II death happened in books and we didn’t see any other Spartan-II other than the Chief). So this made the loss even more tragic
Halo Reach works because like Red says, they fling the light into the darkness. Even when the original goal of saving Reach becomes hopeless, a new hope is presented, bring the last fragment of Cortana to safety.
I really like how, since Six is such a blank slate and how customizable their armor is, it’s less like the story of how Six, the character, dies and more so how you, the jackass on the couch, dies.
In my playthrough with my friends, I undercut the drama of the ending completely by mistake in falling arsebackwards off the edge just as it got to the Alamo moment at the end.
And as Bungie says, it is a story of a planet, a doomed place that will forever going forward be a rallying cry for the survivors. Reach is still my favorite Halo game, and it truly makes you feel the struggle. The covenant doesn't speak English, your health doesn't regenerate, it is a tragedy doomed planet with doomed people and A Fistfull of Arrows should be canon damn it.
oh, absolutely. I still remember being in the theatre the first time and the show just coming for my soul with that whole we tell the story again and again as if it might turn out this time, because it matters, because of orpheus, and because it just fit so perfectly with the frame of mind I was in at the time.
Obviously I knew what was going to happen to Orpheus and Eurydice going in. But when it got close to the ending I was still in suspense trying to figure out how they were going to end the story, if that makes sense. Like, they HAVE to do that ending, it's Orpheus. But that can't just be it, everyone is so invested in those two. I love how they managed to stick the landing, 10/10
I love Hadestown so much -- it felt like the entire theatre had its breath stolen when the tragedy strikes; Eva's weak little "Orpheus" before going under broke my heart and I was thankful I brought so many tissues in my purse
I remember some old memes about "Why in your Power Fantasies, do you choose to be good?" And the response of "Because my Power Fantasy is to help people!" And that... sticks around a lot with this. Whether in moments of trying to secure a better future for all, or coming together during hard and maybe apocalyptic times... Even if I knew I was to die in 60 days, I would spend them with my loved ones trying to make them the brightest days I could. Not all of them will be, many will still be laden with grief and heartbreak, but there will always be those bits of Joy sprinkled throughout.
On the topic of GrimDark, I think the Fall of Cadia does it best. No one wins and the "hope" from Cadia's last stand is a last gasp because now the way from the warp is so wide open, it makes She Who Thirsts jealous. But the stand was just so epic, and the last defiant act was so awesome that despite knowing it's the beginning of the end, I can't help but be thoroughly moved by it. To fire even as your planet cracks, to not even break while the World around you breaks and crumbles, is amazing and I love it. The Planet broke before the Guard did. Cadia stands!
It's one of those weird ones because 40k is the textbook of GrimDark and a *lot* of it is done very poorly. Casualties in the trillions for basically zero gain style things. However, the Fall of Cadia does stand in some ways as an example of them doing it right, because it fundamentally shook the status quo, and demonstrated the overwhelming bravery of Humanity's weakest defenders. Stalwart, underequipped men and women who refuse to relinquish their duty even knowing that they have only death waiting for them. Because of that, the 13th Crusade ended in a Chaos victory, yet the status quo was forced to change, suddenly the Imperium is forced into a chain of events that might rekindle the spirit of humanity rather than just continue to remain in the festering carcass of a more golden age. A Primarch returns, an Eldar god is born, and hope is returned even to the Grim Darkness of the 40th millennium.
@@arbiterally101 casualties in the trillions for zero gain isn't inherently wrong, in the vast future civilizations will have gigantic amounts of people in them. Every year millions die from the flu, it doesn't matter because that number is so small in the grand scheme of things. Same for 40k it doesn't say ''trillions died'' to be edgy, but to showcase how big we think trillions are is still very small for the vast future
Yeah I think Red can be so hope pulled sometimes she can miss the beauty of fighting on when there is no hope, when the characters know it’s hopeless, but they’re simply incapable of giving up. I honestly think “the hopeless last stand” is one of those stories that’s kinda universal, Poland holding against Germany despite being abandoned by the Allie’s, the last charge of the samurai at Shiroyama, the Alamo during Texas war of independence. They were all hopeless last stands, but the courage they showed kept their dreams alive
You reminded me of a quote that for a long time, I had forgotten about. "Always be kind. Sometimes kindness is all you can give. Sometimes kindness is enough." Ironically, words spoken by a Doomed Hero who knew she was living on borrowed time, and eventually gave her life to save everyone. Thank you for reminding me of her and her story.
I love stupid sayings like this, that ultimately mean nothing and are empty platitudes. They exist to make 'us' (or you) feel better, not to actually convey some moral truth
Noble sacrificed everything, including themselves, but they didn't only earned humanity time, but also the means to eventually end the war, who would say finding the Holy Rings would lead to their demise? I just love that both ODST and Reach are receiving more attention recently.
My favorite super contrived time loop is the “Mystery Spot” episode of Supernatural. Every single death that restarted the loop was contrived as hell, but it had an in universe reason that it ended up so contrived. Sometimes ridiculous contrivances can work if properly supported in universe.
A less comedic example of this is the Dr. Strange What if... shown in this video. The Ancient One explained very clearly why it was happening. It was all to avoid the grandfather paradox.
Also, sometimes contrivance is just a tool for the things that we care about - if you need to have a great in-universe explanation for EVERYTHING, that’s the author version of the conspiracy theory board. And that’s extremely tiring
Reminds me of Peter Capaldi's regeneration speech in Doctor Who, 12 regenerating to 13, "Never be cruel, never be cowardly but always be kind." To be honest while I was listening I kept thinking about the end of 10 Ood Sigma, though it could have been the woman on the bus, gave 10 a prophecy and in Waters of Mars 10 immediately lampshaded it and you saw at the end that 10 realised that maybe he shouldn't avoid it.
I want to say, I don't think everyone is able to choose to be kind. There's people out there who are too damaged and too stressed out to do anything else than to be angry and/or sad.
You used a lot of ExU: Calamity clips in here, and that absolutely hits the conclusion home. I remember feeling _pretty_ satisfied and fairly checked out after the second-last episode when they triggered their own destruction, but the fact they were so successful in the last episode at making sure to save as much as possible at the expense of their own lives was a great moral to end on. Damn just seeing the clip of Cerrit and his kids is making me tear up again. How could you do this to me, Red.
Thing is one action of one of the characters started the calamity. And no matter what it still would have happend. Latter though but it still would have happened and nothing would have changed it the players knew that. Plus the clamity would have been much much much worse if not for the characters stoping the elemental titans form being free if they were free the calamity would or could have ended differently. The actions of the characters did start the calamity but they made it easier
I've been hearing a lot about the finale to ExU: Calamity and all the spoilers just keep pulling me closer and closer towards actually listening to it for the story. The only thing stopping me is the length of the episodes and my frequent lack of work that will actually let me listen to it.
I am so glad you had ExU Calamity clips here. One of my favourite doomed hero stories ever and it was partly improvised. I especially loves the ending [SPOILERS] - the Calamity happened, everything was over, but by throwing in everything they had to give him a chance, Cerrit still survived. That was the most satisfying dash of optimism they could’ve done
Same. And it is emphasized; They failed, but they didn't. Yes, the heroes of the story died except one, but they saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives. They prevented the apocalypse from being as big as it could have been. Avalir was ultimately doomed no matter what, but they saved far, far more than Avalir.
"Why do we tell stories? To try to make sense of a world that can be terrifying and enormous. In Exandria, I don't know that your story will long be known. I don't know who will remain to tell it, but it did happen - and it did matter. And though the Calamity is here, because of you, it will not be here forever." Weeping.
"Trying to predict all future bad stuff and protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." Ouch that one hurt. But great trope talk!!! This one was really good!
That’s the key that (apparently) a lot of “dark magical girl” stories miss. Madoka is simultaneously one of the most depressing and uplifting stories I’ve ever experienced, as that intense sorrow and despair gives way for incredibly cathartic hope at the end.
@@FedoraKirbAlso, what makes Madonna dark is that it’s a full-blown tragedy with the characters meeting awful ends due to major flaws (like Mami’s overconfidence or Homura’s love for Madoka) and downward spirals. It wasn’t being needlessly edgy or grim to be cool.
I just wish When They Cry was also included. Rika going through millennia watching her friends go insane and kill each other while trying to figure out how to even make it one more day is rather heartbreaking, while also making for an interesting mystery and heartwarming demonstration of The Power of Friendship.
I'm thinking yet again of a couple of lines from the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and they've alway stuck with me when talking about this kind of thing. "This story happened a long time ago in galaxy far, far away. It is already over. Nothing can be done to change it. It is a story of love and loss. Brotherhood and betrayal. Courage and sacrifice and the death of dreams. It is the story of the blurred line between our best and our worst. It is the story of the end of an age." And then, after the preamble, "Only two. Two is enough. Two is enough because the adults are wrong, and their younglings are right. Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last."
Majora's Mask is my favorite case of the time loop, since in this case it isn't just the hero, it's the whole of Termina that the player knows is going to die, so they have a lot more to care about. Seeing the different people's reactions to their knowing that they're going to die is amazing.
@@joaomrtins that's because it's a very good in-game way of handling respawning. Outer wilds also works so well because of the time limit of each loop. you know you're doomed to die so you become more and more reckless which is something I often thought was stupid in time loop stories, how could the protagonist make such simple mistakes he's done it millions of times but now I realise how organic and human it makes them. I have forgotten to wear my spacesuit more than I want to admit or I forgot to lift [REDACTED] in Brittle Hollow before using [REDACTED] on the Ash Twin a couple of times too.
I think this is a large appeal of historical fiction. An educated reader knows how the story will end, how all the real characters die, but watching them get to that point while being allowed inside their minds is fascinating.
1917 is a great example. For those who know the battle, they know exactly what is happening and that the message to halt the attack will make it. What we don't see coming is all the things that go wrong trying to get there, and every moment not getting to the destination is a moment where someone's life could be saved.
@@justinalicea1590 not only that, but you still feel emotionally wrong out by the end of that movie despite the protagonist technically having succeeded. Like, he accomplished his mission, but it definitely doesn't feel like it was a particularly substantive victory in the greater context of the war, and if that isn't a great summary of world war I, I don't know what is
A well-built piece of historical fiction exploits our sense of the inevitable and pits it against our hope for the better. We keep having more stories about Spartacus and William Wallace and all sorts of ancient heroes that any child can tell you end badly for them, but seeing it play out well can make what is inevitable somehow still shocking. I mean hell, we keep watching Shaekspeare's tragedies even though by this point more people know the broad outline of the big three tragedies than major historical events.
It's just a real shame that most historical fiction really seems to struggle with the "historical" part; we're interested in the story as it happened because what actually happened is fascinating and can provide important lessons, yet historical fiction creators generally seem to want to do everything they can to avoid showing the story that actually happened.
One of my favourite doomed heroes is Guts from Berserk. Guts is branded, and this condemns him to a certain fate that I can safely refer to as “grim,” to say the least. Despite this, he still fights for his life with the odds against him every time, and he still forms a sort of found family around him and begins to overcome his trauma. It’s very uplifting if you don’t think too hard about it…
Came here for this. If you read Black Swordsman first, you know the eclipse is coming. If you start with Golden Age instead, the eclipse comes out of nowhere. Both are effective payoffs for different reasons.
One of the most powerful moments in Berserk comes when you finish the Golden Age and the first chapter of the Conviction Arc is "The Black Swordsman Once More". It's devastating- after all we've seen Guts be capable- love, generosity, philosophy, kindness- he's reduced by trauma back to this violent, angry man with no purpose in his life but fighting. It's all the more effective because we know exactly who this Black Swordsman is from the first arc. Also, honestly, I think Berserk is uplifting even if you do think hard about it. It's honest about how horrible going through trauma can be, but it also steadfastly believes that it's always worth it to do the work to heal and that you can overcome any trauma by being vulnerable with those who care for you.
Hi, Red. Even more than usual, he visual aids were amazing at communicating a complex point. ex. "I hope that doesn't kill me." with the wave about to crash. The shot of the protagonist throwing the shining hope out of the wave and towards off-screen survivors. The person self-trapped in the iron lung as an asteroid hurtles towards them. The faceless horror with the bat coming up from behind the protagonist. Each one packed a punch and got the point across.
According to the anime's Magical Girl Madoka and Future Diary the answer is "all of it". Which is fair because in each scenario the doomed hero is desperately trying to save someone else while being woefully ill equipped.
@@Ralathar44 the best one was when Homura failed horribly because she spawned her own worst enemy and ignored her until she shot up a school, picked apart all her beliefs and resolve and sniped Madoka as a final act of defiance, which saved the world.
Considering the number of times Furude Rika nearly gave up from the pain of seeing everyone dearest to her murdered or twisted into murdering each other, yeah "all of it" sounds about right. She went through all the levels many times, and apparently also drinks heavily from time to time despite being 11, technically.
one amazing example of Doomed Hero is Jinx from Arcane. It was the perfect story for those that know what she is doomed to become and those that never even heard of the game. It presented a situation in which, those that knew, slowly dread what is bound to happen once they fall in love with Powder, and those that didnt know, got to experience the slow decent into madness while desperately hoping Vi can eventually get Powder back. By the end of it, regardless of how you started, nothing but conflicting feelings and sorrow remain. Same can be said for all the other characters, you can tell "who is gonna survive" based on who actually is a champion in the game, but it does not matter once the monkey bomb goes off, its just as shocking as it would have been if you had no basis.
Arcane was definitely a great example of a doomed hero narrative. In a way, all the main characters in Arcane are doomed in the sense that they're doomed to become who they are in League of Legends: Jinx, Vi, Catelyn, Jayce, Viktor, Singed, Vander/Warwick, etc., but Jinx is definitely the best example.
@@matthewmuir8884 Honestly, Vi also has a pretty big doomed element with the outside context of the story. She’s just as doomed to join the organization that killed her parents as an Enforcer as Jinx is to go insane.
Yeah I was also reminded of ENG when she talked about starting a story with a doomed hero. Even though Kuzco isn't quite a hero. That movie is underrated.
One of the things that Calamity pulled off as a prequel series was it moved the goal post. Going into it, everyone knows that the calamity killed 2/3rds of the population. Once the calamity starts our group of heroes is given a prophecy that unless they figure something out, EVERYBODY is going to die. I had never seen a prequel series create such clear purpose and actual stakes in the story to this point I was absolutely amazed.
I've been waiting for the day Madoka Magica would pop up in some capacity in Trope Talks. So many good examples of so many things in that little series
Very true. Though I remember being tempted to pick up the manga from a book store, only to find out Kyuubei had actual facial expressions. To me, the anime did it better in that he was cute but cold. Keeping a neutral expression made it much more unnerving when he finally revealed what he was doing
Same! I’ve always been curious to know if Red has seen Madoka Magica. It’s just that the way it shows utter darkness and despair, but still convey a message of hope, is amazing. And the way it managed to make an ending that, in all aspects, should’ve felt unsatisfying, yet didn’t. It was a satisfying ending even though Homura was still separated from Madoka
Red talking about the apocalypse log version of the story of how i died version of this trope: Me, a tolkien nerd: Ah yes, the Book of Mazarbul (that's the journal thing they found in Balin's tomb in Moria) Red, later: Ah yes, the Book of Mazarbul
I remember reading a book series once that has an interesting sort of doomed hero narrative by having the books jump from the present to the future and then back. At the end of the final book the "present" chapters had wrapped around to the beginning of where the "future" chapters had started. The whole thing was fascinating to read because in the future chapters you get to see a villainous and twisted version of the main character that seems so good in the present, but you can still see how they are the same person and you desperately want to see how they fell so far. It was really impressive because of how perfectly it timed the reveal of information was.
And even then, he might not make it. There's actually very little chance that he did. But even that glimmer of hope fucking wrecked me. Now I want to rewatch Calamity!
“As though they aren’t mere hours away from becoming very interesting footnotes in a future textbook.” Something about that sentence is slightly terrifying
I’m reminded of a Series of Unfortunate Events and how it sometimes still seems surprising even with the narrator regularly reminding us that it doesn’t end well.
I think most of those feelings of surprise come from the fact that there were times where something could have been done to help the Baudelaire siblings by the third time they were moved to a new place or even the time when Aunt Josephine was killed, as it should have been suspicious to many people who new why the family was targeted that Count Olaf is always at the scene, but they did nothing.
I need rewatch that whole series honestly, that last episode made me cry multiple times. Also even though everyone knew the calamity was going to happen, their work never felt pointless.
I really really love the pulls from EXU calamity. That did a fantastic job of capturing that bitter sweet feeling. “We’re doomed anyways, so it’s time to pull out all the stops.” And uh, spoilers. It was really, really satisfying when Travis’ character got out.
there's a book that does this troupe very well and it's literally called "they both die in the end" and it's a story about a society where people know what day they'll die and have to make the most of their final day. it's a very sad book that made me cry but it was also very beautiful and well written. 10/10 would recommend
Oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely. That story was so beautiful and hit me really hard. I recommend it to anyone, it’s extremely well written and worth your time. The concept is genius and explored really well.
There was one book I liked back in high school that I didn't know the term for, but it was a literal apocalypse log. It was Diary format of a Teenager living through a comet strike on the moon that caused it to enter a tighter orbit, thus totally wrecking the climate and tides basically overnight. The ending is a final entry stating that the town is no longer a viable place to live and this diary is being left behind because it's full and the chances of someone else finding it in the future aren't totally 0. I don't remember the name of it anymore though.
I also feel like the loop structure where no matter what is attempted always yielding the same results and the character needing to except that and move on can provide an outlet for those with anxiety and survivors guilt. We always feel that sense of, “ if only I had asked them to stay“ or “ could I have done anything different to have changed how this tragedy played out?“ and it sometimes helps to immerse yourself in a narrative that provides comfort that there was nothing you could have done. The only thing now is to move on.
That's true, but Cassian's got a larger share of the dramatic irony because he now has a Disney+ series about the operations he did before he met Jyn Erso.
I think Star Wars added a new character to the prequel well, with Ashoka. She was made important to the story while working with the issue of her not existing before the clone wars
With all due respect to Ahsoka, she never really was important to the main narrative of Star Wars in that the story of the films can be told without her and still make perfect sense -plotholes from the sequels withstanding.-
Arcane did a really good job adding new characters; my favourite example being Silco. Spoilers ahead: At first glance, he seems like a typical season 1 prequel villain: an overt antagonist who is there to oppose the main characters for a bit, get them started on their journey towards who they come, and then die to pave the way for them. He does all that and _more;_ the moment he adopted Jinx at the end of episode 3 was the moment that cemented that he would be a very interesting character going forward, and indeed, he was.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi She unironically feels like a self insert character. Give the kids a vehicle to hang out with Obi-Wan and Anakin. It's innocent enough for the original concept of the show. But it's now becoming an issue. She is ultimately defined by the fact that she was inserted into someone else's story but never really developed much of her own identity. The reason I like the Martez sisters arc was it felt like Ahsoka was getting her own stuff, her own friends, her own enemies, her own story. But nope right back to taking someone else's hand me downs (Maul).
There’s this story I made in high-school where the main character finds a journal under the floor boards. Looking back on it, this is full of this trope and it’s really good, until the end where I lost motivation and made it really cringey. Edit: it’s also really long on account of being 21 chapters long (1 chapters= a 100 year lifetime, because every single incarnation of the author of the journal is a centenarian). The story take place in our time period (early 2000’s) but the journal starts in year 0. The pages of the journal are full of diagrams and incomprehensible words, but as he flips through the letters become more and more legible until it becomes clear modern day English. When he finally gets to understand the words, he goes back, does some research and starts understanding the earlier chapters. When the book makes sense, he realizes that it’s a story, and that the one who wrote it was there only 2 decades ago. The story in the journal explains that of primordial entity who brought the wrath of new gods upon themselves and was cast down to earth in a mortal body. Every time they die, they live the same life again and again, reincarnating in a new body through the centuries. They live out the same scenario (i wrote the story in black pen, then tried to erase the passage containing what the scenario was supposed to be, which caused smudging and 15 year old me decided to just leave it that way), dying again and again, until eventually they notice the cycle and it starts to crumble. The day that they had put the journal in the floorboards was the last time they had died. As my protagonist closes the book, he realizes: “two decades..?” And he spirals into existential crisis, because he is the new reincarnation.
Or "How I use fiction to _process*_ my personal emotions." That's closer to what _catharsis_ is supposed to be. Aside from that, I agree :) *Not really "process" in an intellectual sense, in terms of content; closer to how your body processes the food you eat.
I hope you mean "escape" as, like, "escapism" to help you get in a better mood/keep hope alive and not "evading real life". If you only ever contemplate your issues, you might be absorbed by that negativity. Keep the balance, as with all things. Acknowledge your problems, but have fun too.
The time loop trope where the hero faces tragedy over and over while growing stronger from their mistakes until they’re able to fix the time loop is literally the entire plot of Re Zero
True he is insufferable at the beginning and he’s still one of my favorite protagonists. Could write a whole thesis analyzing his character and how he develops
This made me think of Cyberpunk Edgerunners. The main character David Martinez is of course a doomed protagonist as it is a prequel series (as well as spoiled in the opening). In the world of Cyberpunk your not remembered for what you did, but how you died (if you go out in a blaze of glory). What I found interesting is unlike all of the other protagonist is he doesn't have any real dreams or ambitions to call his own, he just follows the desires of those he gets close to. Because of this, he ends up on a downward spiral of augmentation, attempting to emulate his father figure Maine after his death. Even at the end, the closest thing he comes to as far as life goals goes is to help Lucy achieve her dream of going to the moon.
Cyberpunk Edgerunners ending Spoiler: It was beautifully poetic how Lucy was the one who told David that you're remembered for how you died, not how you lived... and yet, in the end, she remembered him on the moon as he lived, not died.
And even without the prequel or the opening, it's cyberpunk. Solid, old school cyberpunk. I didn't know anything about the game world or catch what you are saying about the opening, but I still knew he was doomed because the story was in the style of old cyberpunk . And old cyberpunk was always tragic. Like reading Quiroga or London, where you know it is a story that will end in the most terrible way because you know the author, the genre and style tells you it is a story of doom. Damn, was that anime good.
Edgerunners spoilers ahead: Aside from all that, literally every character tells David where the path he's going down on ends, yet he still goes through with it, insisting that he's special somehow even while knowing he's not. And while it is tragic and the city does consume him, he still died with a smile on his face, not realizing he left Lucy alone, unable to go to the Moon with him.
I really felt this in the music. It's not a heartrending score, it's an upbeat catchy tune. Revelry in going out against Arasaka's personal Doom Slayer, fulfilling the dream of even just one person, and dying as yourself.
I really feel this. I've had some stuff going on lately, and raw, sharp, poundy music has been a great outlet. It's funny, because I wasn't really into it as a teenager when the stereotypes said I should have been, but it's sure useful now.
It's telling when the only time the series didn't star a doomed heroine was Magia Record's Iroha. Madoka ends as you'd expect, Oriko's story is a prequel to Madoka and her whole character is Madoka but gone horribly wrong(she even went out sacrificing her life for a world that outright hates her, arguably more noble than Madoka herself), Tart is Jeanne D'Arc and we saw her end in the anime so it was a given and Suzune is almost a failure hero as her only acomplishment was a minor personal victory and death on her own terms and lastly Kazumi seems victorious at the end but then you remember how Madoka ends and you realize Kazumi gets killed by Madoka herself due to her being a Witch with a Soul. Iroha basically gets all the upsides to Madoka's ascention but none of the downsides cause she's too marketable to remove.
One of the best cases of "Doomed heroes" on Tv is in the British show Utopia. As soon as we start to understand the network (the bad guys) we see just how deep a hole the main characters are in, and that they'll always be close to danger, this is especially true for Grant, who has to deal with the consequences of the conflict even after it's supposed resolution
I have stopped consuming a number of pieces of media because I go "This is going to be about someone having their life just completely fall apart and I don't need that in my life right now. I don't want to be that kind of sad right now." Which is not to say they are bad. Breaking Bad, Edgerunners, and many others are very enjoyable but I've found that I have to be in the right head space for a doomed hero.
I dont know, ideally its about how people fight and move on sdespite almost certain doom. And enjoy what is left along the way. Also skyer got a good end to be free of walt :P Or kubera the ast god is really good. Realy good. And slow start that, It can be oddly carthatic and hopeful to remember that een in the darkest nights there is hope, And skyer finally got rid of walt :P
@@marocat4749 Yeah, but for people with depression or those of us who had lives of serious tragedy, those are the stories that can make us spiral. I can't watch 'Grave of the Fireflies', I hate 'Hunger Games', or any show where children are tortured because I was that child and I really don't want to relive that. I have therapy for that. Rogue Squadron put me in a depressive state for days afterwards and I'm still mad that no one warned me about the ending ahead of time. Some people, especially people with anxiety, love those types of movies for all the reasons that Red pointed out. But, some of us, the ones that have actually had to experience tragedies, are far less interested in watching our wounds walking about, strutting and fretting their hour upon the stage. It's triggering. So, I am proud of James for recognizing that there is no need for them to trigger themselves with media when the world already has so many triggers lying about.
I kinda get what you mean in the sense of sometimes I'm not looking to drown myself in a depressing and nihllistic experience, even if its nuanced. A lot of mature stories can also be light-hearted and fun at the same time.
Ghost Trick is such a good blend of the prophecy/"story of how I died"/timeloop kinds of doomed hero. It opens with the protagonist already dead and waking up as a ghost, gives you time travel powers, and tells that a) you can't undo your death and b) you'll disappear by dawn. All you can do is try to put together what happened to you before your time runs out, using time loops to un-doom other people along the way.
and then the story rewards the protag for trying and trying and trying, in a way that they wouldn't have understood til near the end, but it was wonderful, and calm, and a lovely example of giving _everyone_ a second chance
The end of this video touches on exactly what I love about the Doctor Who season 10 finale. Facing an impossible situation, the Doctor is told that he can't win, so why try. And his response is a thing of beauty. Go watch it if you haven't, because I can't do it justice.
I think a good use of the time loop story is when the thematic relates to "letting go" and the person wants to prevent a common tragedy and they can't succeed because they're not trying to prevent the tragedy for heroic reasons but they're either selfish or stubborn and refuse to accept the tragedy, and ultimately the solution to escaping the loop is to simply accept the tragedy happened and to move on.
This is part of the interesting appeal to me of Persona 5. Right from the start, you see your character getting arrested for your actions as a Phantom Thief, knowing that one of your allies betrayed you. And when you first meet the Velvet Room inhabitants, they tell you that your fate is a doomed one. The game prepares you for that moment, but only your wisest actions during the game can help prevent your doom from happening. Otherwise, you might just end up causing it yourself
Red: brings up apocalypse logs Me, who’s writing a podcast in a post apocalyptic setting: nervous sweating Red: brings up how they are often journals or audio logs Me, who’s plan was to have the podcast presented as audio logs: *panic*
This is honestly pretty funny because it reminds me of me. That moment when you think "I have this awesome original idea, it's gonna be great" but it turns out to be a well-explored trope.
@@pravaris It is an unfortunate truth. It feels like it’s so hard to come up with something truly original. But maybe that’s something that can help make a trope more well done in a story. You just don’t know it’s a trope, that way you aren’t letting previous versions of that trope influence you.
@@masked_serpent Hey, if it's good then it's worth it and that's all that matters. If something is good, even if more common than you realized, all that matters that its done well.
Everything is a remix, seriously, try thinking of a thought that has never been had before. Now think that we have 7 billion people on this planet currently, and while technology changes, languages differ, and cultures around things might have different opinions, there is probably something that has at least been a baseline for something else. That said, just because something is a remix, doesn't mean it isn't an interesting combination. The Backrooms is based on ancient greek stories of Labyrinths, it is just that instead of bulls and stone walls it is ooze-like monsters and plaster walls. Squid Games, Battle Royale, Hunger Games, Fall Guys are all based on ancient roman gladiators who would fight to be the only one left standing for fame and money, or the Olympics where they would prove themselves to be the best at some particular straightforward task like getting from Point A to Point B, or flinging this rock a particular distance. Does that mean any of those are particularly bad? Here is another exercise for trying to imagine a new thought, try to think of a color that doesn't exist. Seriously. Bandwaves of light do not matter, mixtures of colors do not matter, just a pigment with whatever texture you want it is just a new color altogether. To paraphrase a line from the Epic of Gilgamesh, something Red covered in her Immortals video, "How do you plan to conquer thinking of something new if you can't even create something as simple as a new color in your head?"
That ending was beautiful. I’m tearing up. Thank you for that. Top tier vid. Also the EXU clips included made my heart swell with genuine happiness hahaha I’m so glad they were referenced here!!!
A very interesting case for this sort of trope is the story of OMORI. It’s simultaneously a doomed hero story and a traditional story at the same time. “Your story is already over, you just have to remember it.” It has the appeal and catharsis of a doomed hero story and all the appeal of a traditional story too. I’d highly recommend people check it out if you want a good story.
Just wanted to say thanks to you, Blue, and anyone else involved in the channel for all the hard work you put into making these. I began writing stories last year partly as a result of interest in storytelling that these videos created- and they continue to inspire me, teach me, and show me new perspectives that I might never have otherwise been aware of.
“There is an odd, heartbreaking, satisfying grief in bearing witness to the heroics of a protagonist who's been dead from the beginning; who cannot possibly save themselves and is no longer trying; who is instead using every second they have left in the narrative to make the story a better place for everyone who'll outlive them. Because while we spend most of our lives caring for ourselves and driving our own narratives, at the end of the day, no matter what the night holds and what secret tragedies may be lurking, we can always choose to be kind. And that will always matter.” -Red
A similar thing happens in Erased, spoilers The hero is only able to save his mother and his friends from death, by being put in a non-responsive coma for a fourth of his life, and THEN having to defeat the killer immediately after waking up.
The ending mini-monologue section in this episode was one of the most inspiring things I've ever heard, honestly. I may have cried. I certainly felt the impact deep in my core. Also, unrelated, but Megamind *almost* does this, but because it's a comedy of course it has to subvert the trope; until the moment it does, it's honestly one of the best examples I've seen on screen of the Doomed Hero- engineering your own downfall isn't normally taken quite so literally.
Me expecting the normal kind of emotional turmoil from a doomed hero narrative only to receive the emotional whiplash of a heartfelt uplifting ending speech from our favourite ace icon
Watching a Doomed Hero story is sometimes like watching a Mystery from the victim's perspective. Sometimes it's just fun to try and work out the How before it tells you.
"This story does not have a happy ending. It does not have a happy beginning. And there are precious few happy things in the middle" -The first page of A Series of Unfortunate Events.
I love those books, and the prequels (the wrong questions) Lemony Snicket is so good
The problem with those books is not that they’re sad but that they’re pointless and revel in misery, sound and fury significant of nothing.
@@brienneoftarth7717 Something tells me people like it for more then just a twist or its ending lol
@@brienneoftarth7717 That’s the point of the books. Personally, I loved the pointless suffering. It isn’t THE problem, it’s YOUR problem.
@@CadanL I didn't read the books much, but the TV show has convinced me I should, as well as the Lemony Snicket prequels. I just wished they used the correct pluralization of Octopus.
The doomed protagonist is common. But what changes them into a doomed HERO is when they say, "I can't change my story. I've seen the ending. But I can change yours."
Londo Mollari? Londo Mollari.
"We can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter."
Without question one of Red's best quotes period.
[algorithm engagement (like + reply)]
“everything everywhere all at once”
Heart emoji (3000x)
i agree :)
Aye, well phrased Red. Well phrased.
I just commented to say, "Hello fellow Phantom!"
@@Phantom86d *Fingerguns* ayyyyyy
Red really pulled a certified "therapy session Speedrun any% in between a tropetalk" moment
Red is getting very good at that
This honestly helped me with some things I've been going through, so I wholeheartedly agree with this therapy.
Oh thank goodness I thought it was only me.
The ending was definitely uplifting, but just seeing clips from “Madoka Magica” and “Grave of the Fireflies” has left me depressed…
"It didn't take long for Reach to fall; our enemy was ruthless, efficient. But they weren't nearly fast enough, for you had already passed the torch, and because of you we found Halo, unlocked its secrets, shattered our enemies' resolve. Our victory - your victory - was so close. I wish you could have lived to see it.
"But you belong to Reach. Your body, your armour, all burned and turned to glass. Everything. Except your courage. That, you gave to us, and with it we can rebuild."
Church/Epsilons Last Words - Red vs Blue:
"Hey guys... if you're hearing this then it means you did it. You won. You kicked the shit out of Hargrove's forces. I knew you could. But this is my last stop. See, when I came into this world, I was really just a collection of somebody else's memories."
"But with your help, these memories... they-they took form! They became my voice, my personality. And, after a while, I... I began to make brand new memories of my own. All of these things are what make me who I am... but they're also holding me back. I can't run this suit as Epsilon, but if I erase my memories, if I... deconstruct myself, the fragments I'll leave behind will have the strength to get you through this. I believe that.
"I wish that there was another way. But I'm leaving this message, as well as others, in the hopes that you'll understand why I have to go this time...hehe, it was actually Doyle who made me realize something that I've never thought of before. There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after.
"But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith."
(Cut to black. The sound of shattering glass is heard as Epsilon fragments himself.)
"Ain't that a bitch."
Ironically enough, they said this as much in Reach's only trailer- 'From the Beginning, you Know the End'
@@TheDirvishsuch a fantastic speech
Greek Heroes: Hubris is such a swell quality, nothing will ever go wrong!!!!
*Hey, kid, you like proving yourself?*
The hubris of a Greek hero is such that he never believes he suffers from it.
Oedipus: I'm going to find the source of this plague and give him what he deserves like the good king I am!
*later*
Oedipus: By Zeus this can't be happening.
@@merrittanimation7721 I DID WHAT?!?!?!?
@@TJDious it’s what makes their stories so relatable imo, pride before the fall vibe
Tangled is a surprisingly sincere "story of how i died" story with a kid friendly twist. Who'd have thought
I think it works for a few reasons.
1. It is a Disney family feature. There is a low expectation they will commit to killing a non-villain.
2. His entire personality for a large part of the film is being a larger than life, mischievous, habitual liar. By the time his full personality and character growth comes in you probably forgot that line.
3. He did die. He chose self-sacrifice without any expectations of surviving or coming back. She thought she lost the one thing that could save him. The emotions they both felt were authentic and probably will have long-term effects on them.
4. After everything both characters have been through in life, they deserve to be happy with the person that helped them through the struggle.
@@sarahtaylor4264 addendum to point one "killing a non-villain, or non-parent". Because we all know Disney goes through parents like toilet paper
@@sarahtaylor4264 also and this is an unsubtle excuse to recommend the Tangled TV show, Rapunzel's and Eugene's relationship is a good and lasting one, and even when they do go through hardship, personal or otherwise, they're there for each other, and its meaningful because as you said; the actual death, loss, and grief they felt was real, brief, but real.
And Rango literally just explicitly wussed out on it, which was hilarious.
I think Tangled is a bad example of this trope tbh cause there's not really any good reason for Eugene to tell us what's gonna happen via narration, and I think most people gloss over it and forget about it pretty much immediately. This trope exists to build up anticipation throughout a film, that by telling us how the story will end we will focus more on how they're gonna get there rather than the destination, but Tangled doesn't really do that and the viewing experience would be largely the same if you'd cut the narration in the beginning. Still a solid movie but not a good use of the trope.
Hadestown did this *SO* brilliantly. The musical basically tells us on the first song, "This is the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, it's gonna end how it always ends, but that doesn't matter, we're gonna tell it again." And, the first time I listened to the musical, by the time "doubt comes in" starts playing I was hoping beyond hope that the story would be different this time, even if they told me it wouldn't. It hurt my heart when the inevitable happened.
sameee
I saw a performance of Hadestown with someone who wasn’t familiar with the original myth, and he was so shocked by the ending lmao
This is something that I always find interesting about re-reading very well-written stories. Even though you always remember what happened in the narrative last time (unless you have a really buggy memory like me!), there's still great satisfaction in revisiting the journey, admiring the cleverness of the author, and sometimes even picking up on Easter eggs & clever things that you missed in the other read-throughs?
In this way, could we say that any sufficiently well-written narrative partakes of some of the elements of a "doomed hero" story, purely due to rewatch/re-read value...? 🤔
@@kumatorahaltmanndreemurr same lol
Sounds a little bit like reading John Gardner's "Grendel" if you're already familiar with "Beowulf".
Red's voice softening a bit after saying "we can always choose to be kind, and it will always matter" got to me, theres a genuine beauty in the fact that good can always have an impact, even if it seems hopeless.
Deltarune. Oh, and I also agree.
❤
agreed
This 💯
That violently reminded me of Everything Everywhere All At Once, and I start sobbing again.
“Trying to predict all future stuff to protect yourself from it, is an anxiety disorder.”
I felt that
Yeah that line hit me like a train
same
Yup
Yeah, that was a great line.
Ya know I’ve always thought of Link as a great example of a doomed hero. While he doesn’t die in the end, his fate *is* sealed. He’s always going to be the Triforce of courage. He’s always going to have to face Ganon. The fate of Hyrule or wherever he is will always rest on his shoulders. His life will always be to fulfill his role as the Triforce of courage, endlessly repeating. But Link still faces it, he still charges forward no matter what because he knows he’s the only one who can. There’s such an undercurrent of tragedy and sadness is every Zelda game because of that fixed fate, but there’s also so much beauty because of the hero that Link is. He’s able to connect to all corners of Hyrule, to all the people and the earth. There is such a profound sadness because Link is forever bound to his fate, but he’s also so heroic that the beauty of it all outshines the darkness. Ya know????
There's an aspect of the fan comic *A Tale of Two Rulers* which dwells on this; Link's memories keep returning to each successive generation of heroes, and everything he's seen in every lifetime scar his reincarnations into muteness. Link's current incarnation in the comic is being watched by several people who don't want them to awaken simply because the innocent, playful child will one more become the silent protagonist, and it terrifies them.
Link is still very young by the end of the games though, and given that calamity only strikes once or twice a generation he doesn't really have his whole life written. There's the theory of the skeleton guy in Twilight's Princess being Ocarina of Time's Link, having lived a full life after his adventures are over, but leaving behind his spirit to pass on his knowledge to the next one. I'd like to think all the Links get to live a full life after the credits roll, so their destiny is more of a fixed first adventure stopping Ganon, rather than being bound to live their whole life as the hero of hyrule because fate said so.
@@arturomacor3615 I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that the ancient hero is the hero of time
@@arturomacor3615 Nah, the theory goes that the Hero of Time became a Stalfos because he died prematurely in a forest, with the acceptance of his death taking form as Majora's Mask
Well damn, that's actually kinda beautifully heartbreaking...
I was always sad to finish a Legend of Zelda game as a kid-maybe part of me knew that the only freedom Link ever got was while the adventure was still ongoing? (Probably not, I was probably sad that my fun game was "done," and there was not much "new" from it anymore. I hadn't yet figured out the joys of replaying.)
The "this is the story of how I died trope" being subverted so often really makes it its own trope. My immediate thought when this was brought up was the movie Megamind, and they did it pretty well.
Tangled did the same thing
@@matityaloran9157I haven’t see that film, is it good?
@@gameover9390 It is
My favorite of these was Fallen, largely because it has a messed up twist...
It opens up with Denzel Washington's (I think) voice saying this is the story of the time he "almost died". We then have a long mystery that drifts into the occult as the detective played by Washington gradually realizes that the various murders happening around him are the work of a demon, one that is able to possess people just by having its present host touch the new host. Washington's character is too strong to possess through touch, so it taunts him instead, and gradually reveals more about itself. It eventually becomes clear that the only way the demon can possess him is if its existing host dies: a demon can only survive for a few seconds outside a host, but the danger increases its ability to enter anyone nearby. If it's alone with Washington, and can immobilize him so he can't get away, it may be able to kill its host and jump into him. Washington finally lets it get him alone, fatally shoots its host, then sits there watching the host die while smoking cigarettes laced with a deadly poison that will take at most another minute or so. Host dies, demon possesses Washington, desperately tries to dash out and at least get far enough out that it can find someone or something else to possess. The story ends drifting up from Washington's body, with the narration talking of how he'd finally been defeated, outsmarted by a mere mortal... ohh, you forgot something didn't you. As a cat arrogantly walks out from behind the cabin, the demon reminds the audience that he said he was going to tell them about the time he *almost* died.
Quite a unique spin, starting out looking like a deliberate subversion, letting the very memory of the opening fade, then bringing it back only to reveal that the one that's not-quite-doomed is the villain, not the hero.
@@broEye1 That's pretty damn good
"try to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disordder" that's a great line
So the best manipulators have disorders? So be it. As one once sayed there is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the ripper (men varrie more and if the difference will be good or bad is random).
@@gunarsmiezis9321 what?
@@sevencats4964 Being unusual can be for good or bad.
The unfortunate thing about that is that "try to predict future stuff" - with significant emphasis on the bad stuff because getting eaten is more bad than getting surprise cake/date/promotion is good - seems to literally be the primary function of our brains; and the more interesting, human bits of it, while able to solve more interesting problems than animals can, are also great at imagining increasingly comprehensive, complex, and _unlikely_ possibilities for things to possibly go wrong.
Basically, it's almost a miracle humans don't ALL run around panicking with the biggest and most general of generalized anxiety disorders at all times.
@@gunarsmiezis9321 yes. And frequently they're caused by early childhood trauma. Predicting the future turns to controlling the future to stay safe. It is commonly a pathology.
I love the brief reference to exandria unlimited calamity! The way brenan told that doomed story was WILD!
Calamity was INCREDIBLE. I think it's the absolute peak of using RPGs to tell a cinematic story.
Her inclusion of that in this video makes me even more excited to watch the campaign! I saw a clip of the campaign the other week and knew instantly that it was going to be the next one that I listened to
Literally finally got around to finishing it last night, it's kind of surreal that it's being referenced right now
@@JiroTheFro You're in for a treat. I really like Critical Role in general, but the combination of Brennan as DM with this cast and the doomed, extremely high-stakes setting makes it 100% my favorite thing they've ever done. Matt might be a master of worldbuilding and storytelling but the intensity that Brennan can reach is just breathtaking.
+
I think the best/worst part about the case of Halo Reach is the objective of the last mission: "Survive".
It's implicitely telling you that you can't win, you can only try to last as long as possible and take as many covenant with you as you can.
It's an amazing end to the game both narratively and as a test of the skills you've accumulated throughout the game.
You knew it was comming and inevitable but with this title the game is telling you: "This is the moment it all falls, show us how it ends".
Perfect.
15:21 "Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." You didn't need to personally attack me so casually like that, Red.
I got diagnosed with Anxiety quite recently, which I genuinely didn't think I had, but this is the first thing I've seen which made me realize "oh shit I actually do have it bad", because I literally do that all the time. I'll lock my car and test the door almost every time - if I forget (or can't actively remember testing it), I'll walk back to my car to make sure I locked it. I've never forgotten to lock it, you would think that I did once and now I'm paranoid because I've experienced getting my car stolen, but I haven't - it's just one of a myriad of things that I'm conscious *could* happen.
Everyone gets anxious about things, you're just weaker than most. Hope that helps you in the long run.
@@thezerowulf2046 *says your disorder is a weakness of character, refuses to elaborate, "hope that helps," leaves.
Same haha I got straight up called out. No wonder I love this trope so much
now I really want to read a fic where batman is punished with living in a world where nothing needs protection
"This taps into an unfortunate truth of being alive, which is that we can't predict when bad things are going to happen to us. Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." Quote of the day.
"We can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter."
Especially because of the list of pure existential dread sources of damger is so long and unstoppable, just from space alone you have asteroids & impactors, alien invasion, gamma ray bursts, rouge black holes, and zero state decay, several of which travel at the speed of light and 1 second its a beautiful day and the next earth as a planet is either sterilized or deleted from existence because the laws of physics rewrote themselves. Fortunately all of this stuff has astronomically low odds of actually happening so its more of just anxiety fuel than genuine issues to keep yourself up at night. (The risk of being in a car accident should scare you way more than the risk of an alien invasion)
Yup It takes one to know one
@@GromMolotok this is a quote, the sentence OP gave isn't one. It's just saying a fact.
I think Hector from Pixar's Coco is written almost like a doomed hero. He sacrifices his chance of seeing his daughter in the afterlife to save Miguel. He willingly lets himself be forgotten not knowing that Coco had his photo all along. This makes his sacrifice genuine and wholesome and it makes my eyes cry.
I recently reread the Tumblr short story about a daycare worker at the end of the world, and this is exactly why it still makes me tear up at the end.
Do you mean “The Last Story Time” or are you talking about something different?
the one where they took care of kids because their parents arent coming from them while the world is ending and some super heros are trying to stop it?
The one I mean is by "bixbythemartian" and will show up if you Google it.
That one is a golden example of the Apocalypse Log
Makes me think of Ice King in Adventure Time
I love your Trope Talks because you don't just give a definition and some examples. You talk about all aspects of the trope. It's positives and negatives, how it can be subverted for a good effect, how the trope interacts with the writer and "audience" members. It is some much more in depth to why the trope matters, at at least why it is often used. You even usually try to give a little moral encouragement or emotional support if you can. Thank you for making more than just "content". Thank you for making something beautiful.
I just wish those examples drew from more popular media sources because she really watches some obscure stuff while I'm screaming one in my head.
@@missously2088 --But she literally used Star Wars--
@@missously2088 "obscure" 🤣
@@carloscastellanosdarkeyesi6126 And what does Darth Vader wears? Obscure clothes!
@@missously2088 I kinda like it though. She doesn't talk about the already obvious examples and even goes for some more underrated stories where they execute a trope well. Of course, she still references other popular shows especially if it is a good example Star Wars or ATLA is just a few examples (and the only ones I can remember heh...)
This is part of why I love the musical Hadestown, it’s the story of Orpheus and Eurydice and the first song repeats over and over “it’s a sad song, it’s a tragedy” with the most upbeat melody you’ve ever heard, so you know how it’s going to end and throughout you get little hints about how their beautiful relationship falls apart, and then they do, but they come back together and it seems like everything is going to work out, all Orpheus needs to do is walk forward and not look back. And then he looks back. And the first song starts again but it’s slow and so tragic but he told you this is how it ends and we still chose to watch it, so you can’t quite bring yourself to cry. But it picks back up again saying the virtue of the story is not the happy ending, but in the journey of hoping it will work out somehow
So yeah go listen to hadestown, you can get the entire story in the songs and every song is a banger
Hadestown explained so well what I’d been trying to articulate to my friends about why stories like Orpheus and Eurydice are timeless in their tragedy. Like you said, we KNOW how the story ends. We know why Orpheus will lose Eurydice. But we keep listening again and again, almost hoping that it won’t end tragically. It’s sort of a “maybe, maybe this time it will end alright” even though deep down we know it never will.
THIS! I loved Hadestown so much, its such a beautiful musical
"Eurydice," not Euripides 😉
And yeah, Hadestown is the absolute BEST! My husband took me to go see it in person last month for my birthday. 😄 Even knowing all the music and knowing to expect something amazing it STILL manages to exceed expectations when you see it live, it is something special.
Yes! I was thinking about Hadestown throughout this whole video and even from the moment I saw the video pop up on my feed.
‘Cause here’s the thing
To know how it ends
And still begin to sing it again
As if it might turn out this time
I learned that from a friend of mine’
And the repeated ‘we’re gonna sing it again’
God i live this musical. We dont watch it or listen to it because we think they might get a happy ending, but because in the process so many things change and we can learn so much from them. Some people say that at the end everything’s fucked and nothing’s better than before, but i think thats dumb. At least one thing changed, now there’s hope. Now there’s the idea of change. They no longer sit by and let life go, now they can change life for themselves. The workers can revolt. Persephone can fix her marriage. Hades can be a better king. Orpheus failed to save his love, but he succeeded in inspiring the people of the underground.
“While we spend most of our lives caring for ourselves and driving our own narratives, at the end of the day, no matter what the night holds and what secret tragedies might be lurking for us, we can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter.”
I honestly love this quote because being kind can show a lot about a person. It is very easy to be mean, especially in this day and age, so choosing to be kind when sometimes this world can show a lack of kindness can mean a lot.
Kindness really is king.
I choose violence
@@grantdotjpg -- You can always choose to be violent, and it will always matter.
@zachattack1021 Sometimes I wonder what the difference between the two is.
"Goodness is not goodness that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the deepest pit. Without hope, without witness, without reward."
"Character is what you are in the dark."
On surprising victories: in a writing for kids and young adults class, my lecturer taught us that middle grade fiction doesn't have to have a happy ending, but it does need to leave the reader with hope. Your characters can stare into the abyss and the abyss can stare back, as long as their friends are behind them, or they come to terms with something, or *anything else* in the story for the kid to think "yes things can be sad, but also... happy?"
Love this take. Some of my favorite media ends sadly but with people accepting their situation and choosing to continue on. Bittersweet is such a nice flavor.
@@mirandaa1464
Yep, makes for quite an interesting story
Yeah I dislike completely bad endings. It just makes me feel sad.
“Unless…”
kids and young adult writing class? What young adult is grouped in with kids? As a kid, I read adult level books because kid books were so bad. "Middle grade" fiction? Sounds absurd..... As a 3rd grader, I was reading stuff with no hope, with hope, and with tons of other themes, because I read just books.... and a good book can be good in a multitude of ways and doesn't need to be constrained for 'middle graders.'
As a kid, I honestly hated how adults would do stuff like this; they honestly hold kids back by making their development so slow and oafish. What happens when you just do your own thing and ignore adults? You get a grade 12 reading level in 2nd grade; and yet oafish teachers will tell me "You can't read this, it is too hard."
Adults are just so out of touch of what being a kid actually is like, despite them once being kids. Children develop mentally a lot faster than people think, and the only reason they don't is because of this massive hampering and holding them back, of trying to force them into the preconceived mold that adults have for children
"Everyone dies alone. But, if you *mean* something to someone... if you help someone... or loved someone... if even a single person remembers you... then maybe you never really die at all. "
Reminds me of how ancestors are given more importance in tragic times and disadvantaged countries. Dia de los Muertos is all about remembering the dead, which is a concept so meaningful to me that I wish it was a worldwide thing because im not Mexican. As a side note, I have heard the reason many latinos have multiple middle-names is due to ingraining the names of their ancestors into their newborns, kind of like how royals would use roman numerals to differentiate their lineages.
@@ArchSchizo funnily enough ancestor veneration used to be big in Europe their was once a time when European grave yards for at least the wealthy and upper middle class had mausoleums dedicated to ancestor’s.
@@ArchSchizo Latins usually receive both the name of their mother and father, and sometimes they get multiple first names, and when they marry they get their partner's name at the end. for example my mother was called Rosa Olivia (first name) Lima (mother's name) da Silva (father's name) Oliveira (married name). usually only the father's name is passed down, but some people like to mix it up (like women pass their mother's name and men pass their father's name, or they just pass the name they like the most). sometimes only the women will add the married name to the end, but sometimes the man will also include his wife name at the end. Royal families were fun because instead of a single lineage like English Royalty, they carried the name of every single lineage they were related to, some names could be 30+ names long.
Oh I understand that reference! It's from Person of Interest! I love that show and that such a great quote!
Gaeeeeeeee
You know, one of my favorite stories is actually TWO of the "doomed hero" types at once, and it came from an unexpected place: Halo Reach.
It's a prequel, and lore-savvy nerds know Reach falls. In addition, if memory serves, the game is pretty upfront about the fact that your character's going to die, too. The story then tells, in parallel, the story of a world struggling against overwhelming force, and your team, who each fight as hard as they're able to try and save as many as they can. The resolution ends where you knew it would - the heroes and the world they're on both die. But, we get our resolution as our character manages to secure the information that we know leads to the rest of the series - the "prequel" facet of the story both secures its doom and ensures that the player knows that their character's heroic sacrifice will win the war, eventually.
Oh yeah. The first scene is of a green field with your character's helmet half buried. Very up-front about the direction of the story, but it also shows that life returned to Reach.
Also, I just love the last level, where all you have left to do is take as many as you can with you. I remember there being no music at all, just the sounds of battle. It's been awhile, so I don't remember how accurate that is, but it's a testament to that scene's tone that that's how I remember it.
I still remember crying at Jorge's sacrifice. He was just so fun.
You don’t even need to be that lore savvy. Pretty sure the opening crawl, or at least the manual, of Halo CE says you are playing as the last Spartan fleeing from the Fall of Reach.
Reach was sick.
@@Dem0n2c "He died thinking he'd just saved the planet. We should all be so lucky."
I was not expecting to burst into tears upon hearing "we can always choose to be kind and that will always matter" thnx
Ikr Red just casually grabbing all my heart strings in a single sentence at the last 5 seconds of the video
You love to see it :'3
"Ah, this is another good episode of _bluwhaaaaaa_"
Yep. I got that.
I'm glad I wasn't alone in this! I got all choked up.
I have genuinely really appreciated your staunch defense of non-ironic hope and optimism in this and your superman videos and more.
Those are the best stories, but they can be 'harder' to write. Tolkien is one of the best writers of the age, and it is all about hope
unhopeful stories are for cowards
This. I hate grimdark. I like Hopepunk, Hopepunk is great.
@@dinodude7290 TRUE
Same! As I’ve gotten older I’ve really grown to appreciate optimistic stories
One really good example of an apocalypse log that I don’t hear people talk about very much outside the fandom is SCP-5000. In the universe of the SCP Foundation, this entry fits perfectly into the niche of what an apocalypse log is supposed to accomplish. I highly reccommend that you go read it if you haven’t already, and if you’re unfamiliar with SCP lore, read some of the wiki’s introductory posts for some background info.
Scp logs are so interesting
Hazzzah! A person of quality!
Dude thanks for the recommendation this is one of the best scps
I came into this expecting a nice foray into technical writing, and I ended up with a deep contemplation and psychoanalysis of catharsis, suffering, hope, and sacrifice… What was it Iroh said? “You know what’s better than finding something you were looking for? Finding something you /weren’t/ looking for at a great bargain!”
Love y’all’s content, Red!
there was also this one line when he was flirting with the fortune teller when he and zuko were hunting the avatar with the bounty hunter on the shirzu.
""At my age, there Is only one big suprise left, and I'd just as soon leave It a mystery."
You see, the audience does not need every story to have a definite ending. Some things can just be left up for interpretation and speculation.
I think this trope does pair very well with the "Last Stand" trope. Having a character know he is doomed but still deciding to stand his ground because a great variety of reasons is something I find very, very touching. If you pair this to the "guardian" trope you can get something very emotional.
Last Stand is such an underrated trope and always gets me. I think it goes under the radar for a lot of people bc it often applies to side characters while the focus is on a hero saving the day, like in Star Wars, how every pilot doing the trench run watched the ones before them get shot down but still went in after them anyway because failure simply wasn't an option.
I think a lot of people roll their eyes at "the last stand" trope. But it gets me Every. Single. Time.
In all of its variations, and every iteration of "just a little longer" I fall for it and love it
Ah yes, the ending of Crisis Core
@@drustanastrophel9538 The price of freedom is steep
I always loved the ending of Halo:Reach because of this
I once read a great ATLA reincarnation time loop fanfic from Azula's perspective. It was really tragic as all her efforts to live past the age of 15 turned her into the heartless version of herself from the show. Since we know she lives on in the show, we know that when she actually succeeds, it will be the gut-wrenchingly awful way that it happens in the show. The fic does give her a chance to put herself back together again afterwards, and even gives her a semi-happy ending with Ty Lee. It's a great fic.
Link?
Velocivoid, did a quick google and it looks like it may be one called Grounded Lightening? Not entirely certain though.
I don't remember. I remember scrolling through the Azula/Ty Lee tag in order to find it.
Leaving a reply so I can find this comment again
@@OreoRanger2210 same
My first experience with doomed heroes was Halo: Reach. Reach literally opens with a flash forward of your character’s helmet, visor shattered, abandoned in a desolate wasteland. Despite knowing that Reach will be glassed and Noble team will die, Reach remains compelling through the tragedy of their futile struggle. There’s a level in the game where you need to sneak aboard a spaceship to detonate a rigged slip-space drive to destroy a massive super carrier. The whole time I was thinking “Will this not work in the end? We can’t succeed. Reach falls in the end”. Then at the end of the level, a major character stays behind to detonate the drive, wiping out the carrier. And then in response to the lost carrier, the Covenant sends an entire fleet to annihilate the planet. You complete your mission, but it turned out to be in vain. The game even comments on the tragedy of knowing the ending. Carter the team leader says “Jorge died thinking he saved the planet. We should all be so lucky”.
To add to this, Jorge is a Spartan-II, with the rest of the main team being Spartan-IIIs. At the time, SPARTAN-IIs were thought to be invincible (mainly because any Spartan-II death happened in books and we didn’t see any other Spartan-II other than the Chief). So this made the loss even more tragic
Halo Reach works because like Red says, they fling the light into the darkness. Even when the original goal of saving Reach becomes hopeless, a new hope is presented, bring the last fragment of Cortana to safety.
I really like how, since Six is such a blank slate and how customizable their armor is, it’s less like the story of how Six, the character, dies and more so how you, the jackass on the couch, dies.
In my playthrough with my friends, I undercut the drama of the ending completely by mistake in falling arsebackwards off the edge just as it got to the Alamo moment at the end.
And as Bungie says, it is a story of a planet, a doomed place that will forever going forward be a rallying cry for the survivors. Reach is still my favorite Halo game, and it truly makes you feel the struggle. The covenant doesn't speak English, your health doesn't regenerate, it is a tragedy doomed planet with doomed people and A Fistfull of Arrows should be canon damn it.
When Red said "There a PROPHECY involved" I half expected Hades to show up with his guitar.
The Magnus Archives is basically Jon frantically attempting to get through the apocalypse log but ends up causing his own apocalypse.
i never thought of it like that. that's amazing.
Hadestown is easily one of the best uses of Doomed Hero I've ever seen. It is completely heart wrenching and hurts so good.
oh, absolutely. I still remember being in the theatre the first time and the show just coming for my soul with that whole we tell the story again and again as if it might turn out this time, because it matters, because of orpheus, and because it just fit so perfectly with the frame of mind I was in at the time.
Obviously I knew what was going to happen to Orpheus and Eurydice going in. But when it got close to the ending I was still in suspense trying to figure out how they were going to end the story, if that makes sense. Like, they HAVE to do that ending, it's Orpheus. But that can't just be it, everyone is so invested in those two. I love how they managed to stick the landing, 10/10
I love Hadestown so much -- it felt like the entire theatre had its breath stolen when the tragedy strikes; Eva's weak little "Orpheus" before going under broke my heart and I was thankful I brought so many tissues in my purse
Oh man hadestown is so good, I was so glad I waited to hear most of the musical at an actual show
Maybe it will turn out this time...
I remember some old memes about "Why in your Power Fantasies, do you choose to be good?"
And the response of "Because my Power Fantasy is to help people!"
And that... sticks around a lot with this. Whether in moments of trying to secure a better future for all, or coming together during hard and maybe apocalyptic times... Even if I knew I was to die in 60 days, I would spend them with my loved ones trying to make them the brightest days I could. Not all of them will be, many will still be laden with grief and heartbreak, but there will always be those bits of Joy sprinkled throughout.
On the topic of GrimDark, I think the Fall of Cadia does it best. No one wins and the "hope" from Cadia's last stand is a last gasp because now the way from the warp is so wide open, it makes She Who Thirsts jealous. But the stand was just so epic, and the last defiant act was so awesome that despite knowing it's the beginning of the end, I can't help but be thoroughly moved by it. To fire even as your planet cracks, to not even break while the World around you breaks and crumbles, is amazing and I love it. The Planet broke before the Guard did. Cadia stands!
It's one of those weird ones because 40k is the textbook of GrimDark and a *lot* of it is done very poorly. Casualties in the trillions for basically zero gain style things.
However, the Fall of Cadia does stand in some ways as an example of them doing it right, because it fundamentally shook the status quo, and demonstrated the overwhelming bravery of Humanity's weakest defenders. Stalwart, underequipped men and women who refuse to relinquish their duty even knowing that they have only death waiting for them.
Because of that, the 13th Crusade ended in a Chaos victory, yet the status quo was forced to change, suddenly the Imperium is forced into a chain of events that might rekindle the spirit of humanity rather than just continue to remain in the festering carcass of a more golden age. A Primarch returns, an Eldar god is born, and hope is returned even to the Grim Darkness of the 40th millennium.
@@arbiterally101 casualties in the trillions for zero gain isn't inherently wrong, in the vast future civilizations will have gigantic amounts of people in them. Every year millions die from the flu, it doesn't matter because that number is so small in the grand scheme of things. Same for 40k it doesn't say ''trillions died'' to be edgy, but to showcase how big we think trillions are is still very small for the vast future
Yeah I think Red can be so hope pulled sometimes she can miss the beauty of fighting on when there is no hope, when the characters know it’s hopeless, but they’re simply incapable of giving up.
I honestly think “the hopeless last stand” is one of those stories that’s kinda universal, Poland holding against Germany despite being abandoned by the Allie’s, the last charge of the samurai at Shiroyama, the Alamo during Texas war of independence. They were all hopeless last stands, but the courage they showed kept their dreams alive
You reminded me of a quote that for a long time, I had forgotten about. "Always be kind. Sometimes kindness is all you can give. Sometimes kindness is enough." Ironically, words spoken by a Doomed Hero who knew she was living on borrowed time, and eventually gave her life to save everyone. Thank you for reminding me of her and her story.
Who
Sounds like Sanguinius.
Flowerfell
@@Jessica_Szoke The quote is from Sans Undertale.
I love stupid sayings like this, that ultimately mean nothing and are empty platitudes. They exist to make 'us' (or you) feel better, not to actually convey some moral truth
That reminder of “SLIPSPACE RUPTURE DETECTED” stabbed me right in the soul.
There's a Halo Support Group in your area. My best wishes on your recovery. :)
From the beginning you know the end.
Noble sacrificed everything, including themselves, but they didn't only earned humanity time, but also the means to eventually end the war, who would say finding the Holy Rings would lead to their demise?
I just love that both ODST and Reach are receiving more attention recently.
Everytime somebody brings up Halo in any capacity my brain says to itself, “I should replay every halo campaign in order again.”
My favorite super contrived time loop is the “Mystery Spot” episode of Supernatural. Every single death that restarted the loop was contrived as hell, but it had an in universe reason that it ended up so contrived. Sometimes ridiculous contrivances can work if properly supported in universe.
A less comedic example of this is the Dr. Strange What if... shown in this video.
The Ancient One explained very clearly why it was happening. It was all to avoid the grandfather paradox.
Mystery Spot is wild lmao
".......does this taco taste weird to you?"
The best time loop episode I have ever seen or read.
Also, sometimes contrivance is just a tool for the things that we care about - if you need to have a great in-universe explanation for EVERYTHING, that’s the author version of the conspiracy theory board. And that’s extremely tiring
I feel like the message, “you can choose to be kind” is one that is extremely overlooked and under appreciated.
“Everything Everywhere All at Once”:
Please see it if you haven’t done so already.
Reminds me of Peter Capaldi's regeneration speech in Doctor Who, 12 regenerating to 13, "Never be cruel, never be cowardly but always be kind." To be honest while I was listening I kept thinking about the end of 10 Ood Sigma, though it could have been the woman on the bus, gave 10 a prophecy and in Waters of Mars 10 immediately lampshaded it and you saw at the end that 10 realised that maybe he shouldn't avoid it.
How so?
I want to say, I don't think everyone is able to choose to be kind. There's people out there who are too damaged and too stressed out to do anything else than to be angry and/or sad.
A quote I've always lived by: "Be kind, for everyone is fighting their own battles"
You used a lot of ExU: Calamity clips in here, and that absolutely hits the conclusion home. I remember feeling _pretty_ satisfied and fairly checked out after the second-last episode when they triggered their own destruction, but the fact they were so successful in the last episode at making sure to save as much as possible at the expense of their own lives was a great moral to end on.
Damn just seeing the clip of Cerrit and his kids is making me tear up again. How could you do this to me, Red.
In a way it hits even harder given the actual agency of player choices in Calamity.
Thing is one action of one of the characters started the calamity. And no matter what it still would have happend. Latter though but it still would have happened and nothing would have changed it the players knew that. Plus the clamity would have been much much much worse if not for the characters stoping the elemental titans form being free if they were free the calamity would or could have ended differently. The actions of the characters did start the calamity but they made it easier
I've been hearing a lot about the finale to ExU: Calamity and all the spoilers just keep pulling me closer and closer towards actually listening to it for the story. The only thing stopping me is the length of the episodes and my frequent lack of work that will actually let me listen to it.
EXU calamity was so Goddamn good
@@papercraftcynder5430 Do it.
I am so glad you had ExU Calamity clips here. One of my favourite doomed hero stories ever and it was partly improvised. I especially loves the ending [SPOILERS] - the Calamity happened, everything was over, but by throwing in everything they had to give him a chance, Cerrit still survived. That was the most satisfying dash of optimism they could’ve done
Same. And it is emphasized; They failed, but they didn't. Yes, the heroes of the story died except one, but they saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives. They prevented the apocalypse from being as big as it could have been. Avalir was ultimately doomed no matter what, but they saved far, far more than Avalir.
I was searching for any comments on this. Very true!
Yuppers. Calamity is a tear-fest. Onion ninjas in abundance.
"Why do we tell stories? To try to make sense of a world that can be terrifying and enormous. In Exandria, I don't know that your story will long be known. I don't know who will remain to tell it, but it did happen - and it did matter. And though the Calamity is here, because of you, it will not be here forever."
Weeping.
"Trying to predict all future bad stuff and protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder." Ouch that one hurt. But great trope talk!!! This one was really good!
I’m so happy that Madoka Magica was included in here, it such a great show and an excellent story that’s depressing yet conveys a message about hope
That’s the key that (apparently) a lot of “dark magical girl” stories miss. Madoka is simultaneously one of the most depressing and uplifting stories I’ve ever experienced, as that intense sorrow and despair gives way for incredibly cathartic hope at the end.
@@FedoraKirbAlso, what makes Madonna dark is that it’s a full-blown tragedy with the characters meeting awful ends due to major flaws (like Mami’s overconfidence or Homura’s love for Madoka) and downward spirals. It wasn’t being needlessly edgy or grim to be cool.
I just wish When They Cry was also included. Rika going through millennia watching her friends go insane and kill each other while trying to figure out how to even make it one more day is rather heartbreaking, while also making for an interesting mystery and heartwarming demonstration of The Power of Friendship.
I'm thinking yet again of a couple of lines from the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and they've alway stuck with me when talking about this kind of thing. "This story happened a long time ago in galaxy far, far away. It is already over. Nothing can be done to change it. It is a story of love and loss. Brotherhood and betrayal. Courage and sacrifice and the death of dreams. It is the story of the blurred line between our best and our worst. It is the story of the end of an age." And then, after the preamble, "Only two. Two is enough. Two is enough because the adults are wrong, and their younglings are right. Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last."
Matthew Effing Stover
Majora's Mask is my favorite case of the time loop, since in this case it isn't just the hero, it's the whole of Termina that the player knows is going to die, so they have a lot more to care about. Seeing the different people's reactions to their knowing that they're going to die is amazing.
Outer wilds has a similar vibe. Time loops tend to work well in video games.
@@joaomrtins that's because it's a very good in-game way of handling respawning. Outer wilds also works so well because of the time limit of each loop. you know you're doomed to die so you become more and more reckless which is something I often thought was stupid in time loop stories, how could the protagonist make such simple mistakes he's done it millions of times but now I realise how organic and human it makes them. I have forgotten to wear my spacesuit more than I want to admit or I forgot to lift [REDACTED] in Brittle Hollow before using [REDACTED] on the Ash Twin a couple of times too.
@@LonelyAncient the main enemy in this game is your own silly mistakes.
I want that "This Way For Pain" image as a meme
EDIT: Never mind, all of Red's drawings are fantastic and I want all of them.
I think this is a large appeal of historical fiction. An educated reader knows how the story will end, how all the real characters die, but watching them get to that point while being allowed inside their minds is fascinating.
1917 is a great example. For those who know the battle, they know exactly what is happening and that the message to halt the attack will make it. What we don't see coming is all the things that go wrong trying to get there, and every moment not getting to the destination is a moment where someone's life could be saved.
@@justinalicea1590 not only that, but you still feel emotionally wrong out by the end of that movie despite the protagonist technically having succeeded.
Like, he accomplished his mission, but it definitely doesn't feel like it was a particularly substantive victory in the greater context of the war, and if that isn't a great summary of world war I, I don't know what is
A well-built piece of historical fiction exploits our sense of the inevitable and pits it against our hope for the better. We keep having more stories about Spartacus and William Wallace and all sorts of ancient heroes that any child can tell you end badly for them, but seeing it play out well can make what is inevitable somehow still shocking. I mean hell, we keep watching Shaekspeare's tragedies even though by this point more people know the broad outline of the big three tragedies than major historical events.
It's just a real shame that most historical fiction really seems to struggle with the "historical" part; we're interested in the story as it happened because what actually happened is fascinating and can provide important lessons, yet historical fiction creators generally seem to want to do everything they can to avoid showing the story that actually happened.
Most stories about Native Americans during colonization feel this way. Most stories about colonization in general o guess feel this way 🤔
One of my favourite doomed heroes is Guts from Berserk. Guts is branded, and this condemns him to a certain fate that I can safely refer to as “grim,” to say the least. Despite this, he still fights for his life with the odds against him every time, and he still forms a sort of found family around him and begins to overcome his trauma. It’s very uplifting if you don’t think too hard about it…
Came here for this. If you read Black Swordsman first, you know the eclipse is coming. If you start with Golden Age instead, the eclipse comes out of nowhere. Both are effective payoffs for different reasons.
One of the most powerful moments in Berserk comes when you finish the Golden Age and the first chapter of the Conviction Arc is "The Black Swordsman Once More". It's devastating- after all we've seen Guts be capable- love, generosity, philosophy, kindness- he's reduced by trauma back to this violent, angry man with no purpose in his life but fighting. It's all the more effective because we know exactly who this Black Swordsman is from the first arc.
Also, honestly, I think Berserk is uplifting even if you do think hard about it. It's honest about how horrible going through trauma can be, but it also steadfastly believes that it's always worth it to do the work to heal and that you can overcome any trauma by being vulnerable with those who care for you.
Hi, Red. Even more than usual, he visual aids were amazing at communicating a complex point. ex. "I hope that doesn't kill me." with the wave about to crash. The shot of the protagonist throwing the shining hope out of the wave and towards off-screen survivors. The person self-trapped in the iron lung as an asteroid hurtles towards them. The faceless horror with the bat coming up from behind the protagonist. Each one packed a punch and got the point across.
I just had the thought of "How must PTSD would someone who went through the time loop doom have?"
According to the anime's Magical Girl Madoka and Future Diary the answer is "all of it". Which is fair because in each scenario the doomed hero is desperately trying to save someone else while being woefully ill equipped.
@@Ralathar44 the best one was when Homura failed horribly because she spawned her own worst enemy and ignored her until she shot up a school, picked apart all her beliefs and resolve and sniped Madoka as a final act of defiance, which saved the world.
according to Re:Zero, a lot
Considering the number of times Furude Rika nearly gave up from the pain of seeing everyone dearest to her murdered or twisted into murdering each other, yeah "all of it" sounds about right. She went through all the levels many times, and apparently also drinks heavily from time to time despite being 11, technically.
one amazing example of Doomed Hero is Jinx from Arcane. It was the perfect story for those that know what she is doomed to become and those that never even heard of the game.
It presented a situation in which, those that knew, slowly dread what is bound to happen once they fall in love with Powder, and those that didnt know, got to experience the slow decent into madness while desperately hoping Vi can eventually get Powder back. By the end of it, regardless of how you started, nothing but conflicting feelings and sorrow remain.
Same can be said for all the other characters, you can tell "who is gonna survive" based on who actually is a champion in the game, but it does not matter once the monkey bomb goes off, its just as shocking as it would have been if you had no basis.
Arcane was definitely a great example of a doomed hero narrative. In a way, all the main characters in Arcane are doomed in the sense that they're doomed to become who they are in League of Legends: Jinx, Vi, Catelyn, Jayce, Viktor, Singed, Vander/Warwick, etc., but Jinx is definitely the best example.
Right! Throughout the first three episodes, I just kept thinking "Powder's so sweet... I'm so sorry for what she's about to turn into."
@@matthewmuir8884 Honestly, Vi also has a pretty big doomed element with the outside context of the story. She’s just as doomed to join the organization that killed her parents as an Enforcer as Jinx is to go insane.
@@Tortferngatr Yes, I agree. I even listed Vi second on the list (though the list was in no particular order).
Shoutouts to Emperor's New Groove for giving us a doomed hero(?) and then continuing past the point of doom.
Yeah I was also reminded of ENG when she talked about starting a story with a doomed hero. Even though Kuzco isn't quite a hero.
That movie is underrated.
Technically, that's just what's called "in media res", it wasn't really a doomed hero narrative.
Great movie, though.
One of the things that Calamity pulled off as a prequel series was it moved the goal post. Going into it, everyone knows that the calamity killed 2/3rds of the population. Once the calamity starts our group of heroes is given a prophecy that unless they figure something out, EVERYBODY is going to die.
I had never seen a prequel series create such clear purpose and actual stakes in the story to this point I was absolutely amazed.
I haven't seen Grave of the Fireflies in 20 years and seeing short clips of it here has put me in a mood.
I can't bring myself to watch that one. I need to watch with a specific someone who either i haven't met yet or hasn't become who they need to be yet.
@@kohakuaiko what do you mean by that?
I haven't seen GotF ever and have intentionally avoided it, and it still put me in a mood.
You really only need to see Grave of the Fireflies once. It stays with you.
It's a movie everyone should watch once, it is also the most depressing movie ever and will haunt you forever. A true masterpiece.
I've been waiting for the day Madoka Magica would pop up in some capacity in Trope Talks. So many good examples of so many things in that little series
Me too LOL. I was thinking "wow this would be a perfect time to show Madoka as b-roll" and then bam, madoka b-roll happened.
Very true. Though I remember being tempted to pick up the manga from a book store, only to find out Kyuubei had actual facial expressions. To me, the anime did it better in that he was cute but cold. Keeping a neutral expression made it much more unnerving when he finally revealed what he was doing
Same! I’ve always been curious to know if Red has seen Madoka Magica. It’s just that the way it shows utter darkness and despair, but still convey a message of hope, is amazing. And the way it managed to make an ending that, in all aspects, should’ve felt unsatisfying, yet didn’t. It was a satisfying ending even though Homura was still separated from Madoka
@@Coffee-hj5diI think she talked about it briefly in one of the livestreams.
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
Red talking about the apocalypse log version of the story of how i died version of this trope:
Me, a tolkien nerd: Ah yes, the Book of Mazarbul (that's the journal thing they found in Balin's tomb in Moria)
Red, later: Ah yes, the Book of Mazarbul
I remember reading a book series once that has an interesting sort of doomed hero narrative by having the books jump from the present to the future and then back. At the end of the final book the "present" chapters had wrapped around to the beginning of where the "future" chapters had started. The whole thing was fascinating to read because in the future chapters you get to see a villainous and twisted version of the main character that seems so good in the present, but you can still see how they are the same person and you desperately want to see how they fell so far. It was really impressive because of how perfectly it timed the reveal of information was.
so, you gotta share what this series is called.
What’s it calledv
Sauce please
What was the book? You do remember right?
The first book is The Bone Witch, and its by Rin Chupeco
18:00 "The DC is 30"
"31"
The little victories in Calamity got me sobbing, I swear to god
And even then, he might not make it. There's actually very little chance that he did. But even that glimmer of hope fucking wrecked me. Now I want to rewatch Calamity!
“The Brass Ring endures.”
“You don’t get to give your children the world they deserve. But you get to give your children a world they can fight for.”
“As though they aren’t mere hours away from becoming very interesting footnotes in a future textbook.” Something about that sentence is slightly terrifying
I’m reminded of a Series of Unfortunate Events and how it sometimes still seems surprising even with the narrator regularly reminding us that it doesn’t end well.
I think most of those feelings of surprise come from the fact that there were times where something could have been done to help the Baudelaire siblings by the third time they were moved to a new place or even the time when Aunt Josephine was killed, as it should have been suspicious to many people who new why the family was targeted that Count Olaf is always at the scene, but they did nothing.
I *really* appreciated the clips from EXU Calamity being here. What a wonderful narrative and piece of storytelling those four episodes are.
I need rewatch that whole series honestly,
that last episode made me cry multiple times.
Also even though everyone knew the calamity was going to happen, their work never felt pointless.
The ending was something else dude. The last roll of the campaign. DC of 30 😭
I really really love the pulls from EXU calamity. That did a fantastic job of capturing that bitter sweet feeling. “We’re doomed anyways, so it’s time to pull out all the stops.”
And uh, spoilers. It was really, really satisfying when Travis’ character got out.
Love how you quoted Waymond from "Everything Everywhere All at Once" in the end of the video. That damn movie always just warms my heart
there's a book that does this troupe very well and it's literally called "they both die in the end" and it's a story about a society where people know what day they'll die and have to make the most of their final day. it's a very sad book that made me cry but it was also very beautiful and well written. 10/10 would recommend
Oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely. That story was so beautiful and hit me really hard. I recommend it to anyone, it’s extremely well written and worth your time. The concept is genius and explored really well.
YES GOSH YES THAT BOOK IS HEARTBREAKING
Reminds me of The Machine of Death series of short stories, said machine predicted the circumstances of any persons' death.
Yes!!! That book immediately came to mind when i read the title of this vid!
I had a feeling a fellow fan of the book would be here.
There was one book I liked back in high school that I didn't know the term for, but it was a literal apocalypse log. It was Diary format of a Teenager living through a comet strike on the moon that caused it to enter a tighter orbit, thus totally wrecking the climate and tides basically overnight. The ending is a final entry stating that the town is no longer a viable place to live and this diary is being left behind because it's full and the chances of someone else finding it in the future aren't totally 0. I don't remember the name of it anymore though.
Oh! I remember hearing about this book although I never read it. I think it's called Life as We Knew It
I also feel like the loop structure where no matter what is attempted always yielding the same results and the character needing to except that and move on can provide an outlet for those with anxiety and survivors guilt. We always feel that sense of, “ if only I had asked them to stay“ or “ could I have done anything different to have changed how this tragedy played out?“ and it sometimes helps to immerse yourself in a narrative that provides comfort that there was nothing you could have done. The only thing now is to move on.
That's a really good point too
The captain of the Demeter in Dracula qualifies as a doomed hero... I think the whole Demeter sequence is so well done and creepy and heartbreaking
"How can you get an audience to root for a hero doomed to die?"
Cassian Andor has entered the chat.
Dude, the ENTIRE cast of Rogue One qualifies.
That's true, but Cassian's got a larger share of the dramatic irony because he now has a Disney+ series about the operations he did before he met Jyn Erso.
I think Star Wars added a new character to the prequel well, with Ashoka. She was made important to the story while working with the issue of her not existing before the clone wars
That's debatable.
With all due respect to Ahsoka, she never really was important to the main narrative of Star Wars in that the story of the films can be told without her and still make perfect sense -plotholes from the sequels withstanding.-
Arcane did a really good job adding new characters; my favourite example being Silco. Spoilers ahead:
At first glance, he seems like a typical season 1 prequel villain: an overt antagonist who is there to oppose the main characters for a bit, get them started on their journey towards who they come, and then die to pave the way for them. He does all that and _more;_ the moment he adopted Jinx at the end of episode 3 was the moment that cemented that he would be a very interesting character going forward, and indeed, he was.
@@Obi-Wan_Kenobi She unironically feels like a self insert character. Give the kids a vehicle to hang out with Obi-Wan and Anakin. It's innocent enough for the original concept of the show. But it's now becoming an issue. She is ultimately defined by the fact that she was inserted into someone else's story but never really developed much of her own identity. The reason I like the Martez sisters arc was it felt like Ahsoka was getting her own stuff, her own friends, her own enemies, her own story. But nope right back to taking someone else's hand me downs (Maul).
There’s this story I made in high-school where the main character finds a journal under the floor boards. Looking back on it, this is full of this trope and it’s really good, until the end where I lost motivation and made it really cringey.
Edit: it’s also really long on account of being 21 chapters long (1 chapters= a 100 year lifetime, because every single incarnation of the author of the journal is a centenarian). The story take place in our time period (early 2000’s) but the journal starts in year 0.
The pages of the journal are full of diagrams and incomprehensible words, but as he flips through the letters become more and more legible until it becomes clear modern day English.
When he finally gets to understand the words, he goes back, does some research and starts understanding the earlier chapters. When the book makes sense, he realizes that it’s a story, and that the one who wrote it was there only 2 decades ago.
The story in the journal explains that of primordial entity who brought the wrath of new gods upon themselves and was cast down to earth in a mortal body. Every time they die, they live the same life again and again, reincarnating in a new body through the centuries.
They live out the same scenario (i wrote the story in black pen, then tried to erase the passage containing what the scenario was supposed to be, which caused smudging and 15 year old me decided to just leave it that way), dying again and again, until eventually they notice the cycle and it starts to crumble.
The day that they had put the journal in the floorboards was the last time they had died. As my protagonist closes the book, he realizes: “two decades..?” And he spirals into existential crisis, because he is the new reincarnation.
I do love a good tragically doomed hero, but I also love a good doomed anime mom.
That hairstyle oh that hairstyle, once you you see it you _know_ she's dead
So far only Mama Midoriya has been spared.
I love a good anime mom
@@TimmyStreams she doesn't have the classical tragic mom hairstyle
@AsheBrimstoneTV
Toxic Fanbase: Get in line!
This channel is really turning into "How I use fiction to escape my personal emotions" and I'm here for it. Keep up the good work!
Or "How I use fiction to _process*_ my personal emotions."
That's closer to what _catharsis_ is supposed to be.
Aside from that, I agree :)
*Not really "process" in an intellectual sense, in terms of content; closer to how your body processes the food you eat.
I hope you mean "escape" as, like, "escapism" to help you get in a better mood/keep hope alive and not "evading real life". If you only ever contemplate your issues, you might be absorbed by that negativity. Keep the balance, as with all things. Acknowledge your problems, but have fun too.
The time loop trope where the hero faces tragedy over and over while growing stronger from their mistakes until they’re able to fix the time loop is literally the entire plot of Re Zero
Unfortunately, Subaru is insufferable.
True he is insufferable at the beginning and he’s still one of my favorite protagonists. Could write a whole thesis analyzing his character and how he develops
Heyy a fellow ReZero fan! Nice!
It is also the plot of Mother of Learning, and it’s wonderful.
I guess I have to read RE:Zero now
I kept waiting for her to bring it up. I was so disappointed when she didn't
This made me think of Cyberpunk Edgerunners. The main character David Martinez is of course a doomed protagonist as it is a prequel series (as well as spoiled in the opening). In the world of Cyberpunk your not remembered for what you did, but how you died (if you go out in a blaze of glory). What I found interesting is unlike all of the other protagonist is he doesn't have any real dreams or ambitions to call his own, he just follows the desires of those he gets close to. Because of this, he ends up on a downward spiral of augmentation, attempting to emulate his father figure Maine after his death. Even at the end, the closest thing he comes to as far as life goals goes is to help Lucy achieve her dream of going to the moon.
Cyberpunk Edgerunners ending Spoiler:
It was beautifully poetic how Lucy was the one who told David that you're remembered for how you died, not how you lived... and yet, in the end, she remembered him on the moon as he lived, not died.
@@Daniel-qt5ib TBF he did die as himself at the end and she snapped him out of his psychosis long enough for him to help her get away
And even without the prequel or the opening, it's cyberpunk. Solid, old school cyberpunk. I didn't know anything about the game world or catch what you are saying about the opening, but I still knew he was doomed because the story was in the style of old cyberpunk . And old cyberpunk was always tragic. Like reading Quiroga or London, where you know it is a story that will end in the most terrible way because you know the author, the genre and style tells you it is a story of doom.
Damn, was that anime good.
Edgerunners spoilers ahead:
Aside from all that, literally every character tells David where the path he's going down on ends, yet he still goes through with it, insisting that he's special somehow even while knowing he's not. And while it is tragic and the city does consume him, he still died with a smile on his face, not realizing he left Lucy alone, unable to go to the Moon with him.
I really felt this in the music. It's not a heartrending score, it's an upbeat catchy tune. Revelry in going out against Arasaka's personal Doom Slayer, fulfilling the dream of even just one person, and dying as yourself.
Gosh even hearing about this trope gets me tearing up
especially that little speech at the end there
trying to grade scripts over here man
This feels like a prolonged answer to the 'Why listen to angry music when you are already angry?' and I love it
I really feel this. I've had some stuff going on lately, and raw, sharp, poundy music has been a great outlet. It's funny, because I wasn't really into it as a teenager when the stereotypes said I should have been, but it's sure useful now.
Honestly, what makes me happiest is that Red used Madoka Magica and Grave of the Fireflies as examples for this trope talk.
It's telling when the only time the series didn't star a doomed heroine was Magia Record's Iroha. Madoka ends as you'd expect, Oriko's story is a prequel to Madoka and her whole character is Madoka but gone horribly wrong(she even went out sacrificing her life for a world that outright hates her, arguably more noble than Madoka herself), Tart is Jeanne D'Arc and we saw her end in the anime so it was a given and Suzune is almost a failure hero as her only acomplishment was a minor personal victory and death on her own terms and lastly Kazumi seems victorious at the end but then you remember how Madoka ends and you realize Kazumi gets killed by Madoka herself due to her being a Witch with a Soul. Iroha basically gets all the upsides to Madoka's ascention but none of the downsides cause she's too marketable to remove.
One of the best cases of "Doomed heroes" on Tv is in the British show Utopia. As soon as we start to understand the network (the bad guys) we see just how deep a hole the main characters are in, and that they'll always be close to danger, this is especially true for Grant, who has to deal with the consequences of the conflict even after it's supposed resolution
I have stopped consuming a number of pieces of media because I go "This is going to be about someone having their life just completely fall apart and I don't need that in my life right now. I don't want to be that kind of sad right now."
Which is not to say they are bad. Breaking Bad, Edgerunners, and many others are very enjoyable but I've found that I have to be in the right head space for a doomed hero.
I dont know, ideally its about how people fight and move on sdespite almost certain doom. And enjoy what is left along the way.
Also skyer got a good end to be free of walt :P
Or kubera the ast god is really good. Realy good. And slow start that,
It can be oddly carthatic and hopeful to remember that een in the darkest nights there is hope,
And skyer finally got rid of walt :P
@@marocat4749 Yeah, but for people with depression or those of us who had lives of serious tragedy, those are the stories that can make us spiral. I can't watch 'Grave of the Fireflies', I hate 'Hunger Games', or any show where children are tortured because I was that child and I really don't want to relive that. I have therapy for that. Rogue Squadron put me in a depressive state for days afterwards and I'm still mad that no one warned me about the ending ahead of time. Some people, especially people with anxiety, love those types of movies for all the reasons that Red pointed out. But, some of us, the ones that have actually had to experience tragedies, are far less interested in watching our wounds walking about, strutting and fretting their hour upon the stage. It's triggering. So, I am proud of James for recognizing that there is no need for them to trigger themselves with media when the world already has so many triggers lying about.
Russian Doll on Netflix is a good doomed-protagonist- time- loop- with-uplifting- ending if you wanted
Second season is much heavier imo
@@eshbena I still haven't finished the third hunger games book.
I kinda get what you mean in the sense of sometimes I'm not looking to drown myself in a depressing and nihllistic experience, even if its nuanced. A lot of mature stories can also be light-hearted and fun at the same time.
Ghost Trick is such a good blend of the prophecy/"story of how I died"/timeloop kinds of doomed hero. It opens with the protagonist already dead and waking up as a ghost, gives you time travel powers, and tells that a) you can't undo your death and b) you'll disappear by dawn. All you can do is try to put together what happened to you before your time runs out, using time loops to un-doom other people along the way.
I would highly recommend Ghost Trick to anyone.
and then the story rewards the protag for trying and trying and trying, in a way that they wouldn't have understood til near the end, but it was wonderful, and calm, and a lovely example of giving _everyone_ a second chance
Missile is best boy
The end of this video touches on exactly what I love about the Doctor Who season 10 finale. Facing an impossible situation, the Doctor is told that he can't win, so why try. And his response is a thing of beauty. Go watch it if you haven't, because I can't do it justice.
"We can always choose to be kind, and that will always matter" Perfect note to end on, Red.
I think a good use of the time loop story is when the thematic relates to "letting go" and the person wants to prevent a common tragedy and they can't succeed because they're not trying to prevent the tragedy for heroic reasons but they're either selfish or stubborn and refuse to accept the tragedy, and ultimately the solution to escaping the loop is to simply accept the tragedy happened and to move on.
This is part of the interesting appeal to me of Persona 5. Right from the start, you see your character getting arrested for your actions as a Phantom Thief, knowing that one of your allies betrayed you. And when you first meet the Velvet Room inhabitants, they tell you that your fate is a doomed one. The game prepares you for that moment, but only your wisest actions during the game can help prevent your doom from happening. Otherwise, you might just end up causing it yourself
Red: brings up apocalypse logs
Me, who’s writing a podcast in a post apocalyptic setting: nervous sweating
Red: brings up how they are often journals or audio logs
Me, who’s plan was to have the podcast presented as audio logs: *panic*
This is honestly pretty funny because it reminds me of me.
That moment when you think "I have this awesome original idea, it's gonna be great" but it turns out to be a well-explored trope.
@@pravaris It is an unfortunate truth. It feels like it’s so hard to come up with something truly original. But maybe that’s something that can help make a trope more well done in a story. You just don’t know it’s a trope, that way you aren’t letting previous versions of that trope influence you.
@@masked_serpent Hey, if it's good then it's worth it and that's all that matters. If something is good, even if more common than you realized, all that matters that its done well.
Everything is a remix, seriously, try thinking of a thought that has never been had before. Now think that we have 7 billion people on this planet currently, and while technology changes, languages differ, and cultures around things might have different opinions, there is probably something that has at least been a baseline for something else.
That said, just because something is a remix, doesn't mean it isn't an interesting combination. The Backrooms is based on ancient greek stories of Labyrinths, it is just that instead of bulls and stone walls it is ooze-like monsters and plaster walls.
Squid Games, Battle Royale, Hunger Games, Fall Guys are all based on ancient roman gladiators who would fight to be the only one left standing for fame and money, or the Olympics where they would prove themselves to be the best at some particular straightforward task like getting from Point A to Point B, or flinging this rock a particular distance. Does that mean any of those are particularly bad?
Here is another exercise for trying to imagine a new thought, try to think of a color that doesn't exist. Seriously. Bandwaves of light do not matter, mixtures of colors do not matter, just a pigment with whatever texture you want it is just a new color altogether. To paraphrase a line from the Epic of Gilgamesh, something Red covered in her Immortals video, "How do you plan to conquer thinking of something new if you can't even create something as simple as a new color in your head?"
@@gingerinajacket8519 I thougth the Backrooms were created by people who got told: "No" by the SCP wiki, so they made their own.
“Trying to predict all future bad stuff to protect yourself from it is an anxiety disorder”
Cmon red don’t call me out like that 😂
That ending was beautiful. I’m tearing up. Thank you for that.
Top tier vid.
Also the EXU clips included made my heart swell with genuine happiness hahaha I’m so glad they were referenced here!!!
A very interesting case for this sort of trope is the story of OMORI. It’s simultaneously a doomed hero story and a traditional story at the same time.
“Your story is already over, you just have to remember it.”
It has the appeal and catharsis of a doomed hero story and all the appeal of a traditional story too. I’d highly recommend people check it out if you want a good story.
Just wanted to say thanks to you, Blue, and anyone else involved in the channel for all the hard work you put into making these. I began writing stories last year partly as a result of interest in storytelling that these videos created- and they continue to inspire me, teach me, and show me new perspectives that I might never have otherwise been aware of.
Just wanted to say good luck with your writing!
@@transientdaydreams Thank you! :)
“There is an odd, heartbreaking, satisfying grief in bearing witness to the heroics of a protagonist who's been dead from the beginning; who cannot possibly save themselves and is no longer trying; who is instead using every second they have left in the narrative to make the story a better place for everyone who'll outlive them.
Because while we spend most of our lives caring for ourselves and driving our own narratives, at the end of the day, no matter what the night holds and what secret tragedies may be lurking, we can always choose to be kind. And that will always matter.”
-Red
"We can always choose to be kind" is my new motto. Thank you.
Always be kind, sometimes kindness is all we can give and sometimes, kindness is enough
Steins Gate has an excellent variation on the time loop of doom, realizing that the looping tragedy can only be prevented by another tragedy.
A similar thing happens in Erased, spoilers
The hero is only able to save his mother and his friends from death, by being put in a non-responsive coma for a fourth of his life, and THEN having to defeat the killer immediately after waking up.
And preventing that lies in the incredibly specific actions category.
The ending mini-monologue section in this episode was one of the most inspiring things I've ever heard, honestly. I may have cried. I certainly felt the impact deep in my core.
Also, unrelated, but Megamind *almost* does this, but because it's a comedy of course it has to subvert the trope; until the moment it does, it's honestly one of the best examples I've seen on screen of the Doomed Hero- engineering your own downfall isn't normally taken quite so literally.
Me expecting the normal kind of emotional turmoil from a doomed hero narrative only to receive the emotional whiplash of a heartfelt uplifting ending speech from our favourite ace icon
Watching a Doomed Hero story is sometimes like watching a Mystery from the victim's perspective. Sometimes it's just fun to try and work out the How before it tells you.
I am so happy reach showed up in the doomed hero's trope talk. I wasn't expecting it but it makes me very happy.