In regards to the “what if quicksilver lives” it would also turn the “you know I’m five minutes older” into a bit of foreshadowing, with those five minutes turning into five YEARS.
Agreed. Except for the part where Quicksilver sides with Tony. I have a _lot_ of trouble believing he'd be that stupid. I couldn't buy that Vision was that stupid, either, but I choose to justify it as the Jarvis loyalty overriding Vision's logical reasoning. Natasha at least _realized_ how stupid she was being halfway through. Peter, on the other hand, didn't get the other side of the story. Why would Tony give him that side of the story? That makes perfect sense. T'Challa was mad at Bucky, the man he believed responsible for his father's death, a perfectly legit reason to side with the man assigned to take Bucky down. Pietro, on the other hand, isn't at all the ludicrous conformist moron that Tony made himself into, he isn't driven by rage, and Tony basically put his sister in lockup. I cannot fathom why Pietro would take Tony's side.
@Joe I think I'd be considerably more forgiving of Tony if he wasn't acting so blind to the very obvious pitfalls of governmental control. I never claimed he _believes_ the U.N. was infallible. But his actions don't paint the best picture. In hindsight, "stupid" was a poor choice of words. "Naive" fits way better.
@jocaguz18 yeah i agree. Civil war did present the ideals very weakly. There's a lot of reasons to register super-powered people that can take down entire nations.
If you want something good with Quicksilver, then you should read Remember This Cold by Lise on Archive of Our Own. It’s exactly like the MCU except a bit more queer and Steve/Loki is a thing but it’s done really well sooooo
tl;dr warning Some people agree with Red about the Quicksilver death. I want to first point out why it happened and then get into why I'm not one of those people. So Quicksilver dodging bullets isn't as easy as it seems when it comes to MCU Quicksilver. Yes he sees bullets in slow motion. But notice how in that clip where he sees it he doesn't react fast enough to do anything about it. He just sees the bullet already passing by and by the time he reacts the glass beneath his feet has already shattered and he falls. A scene I prefer to point to is later in the movie when he's speeding into battle and one of the cops holding up the citywide perimeter against Ultron accidentally fires and it hits Quicksilver in the arm. He's not fast enough to just know when bullets are coming at him and not fast enough to move himself out of the way if he happens to notice them. The MCU was a much more accurate portrayal of his powers and Joss Whedon is a very avid fan of comics so his Quicksilver is real. The X-men Quicksilver is nonsense. They were just going for flash and literally gave us the Flash. And that's why they put themselves in a corner after that because at any point why couldn't their Quicksilver just get everybody to safety? Science channels have had a field day with that too so you guys should check them out. I'm not going to get into why studio politics got Quicksilver killed because everybody talked that to death already. But I want to get into how even though he was getting Hawkeye to safety he could still get shot. He's pushing either the car forward or Hawkeye forward. But he's pushing from behind Hawkeye so he's still out in the open and as I already established he's not fast enough to just dodge bullets that are coming at him. He can see them but that doesn't mean he can save himself. And Ultron's Quinjet guns fire much faster than the pistol that Quicksilver couldn't dodge either. AND Hawkeye was still hit by a bullet. Notice how when they get Pietro's body back to the Helicarrier transports Hawkeye's bleeding too. So the save wasn't even perfect and not nearly enough to get all of them to safety. My guess is the goal of the scene was to prioritize the child's safety who was being shielded by Hawkeye and so Pietro did his best to get Hawkeye to safety so the child would be safe and that last second move was too late to also get Pietro out of the way of the bullets since it barely got Hawkeye out of the way of all the bullets. Now as for Hawkeye being on the chopping block that was obvious for more than one reason. Yes it was set up very obviously making it an easy red herring to spot. But we also have to look at the director Joss Whedon. Unlike most Whedon has a habit of killing off characters right when they seem to be important to the story for once and usually right after they've done something useful. For example there was Jenny Calendar in Buffy who was just found to be a descendent of some gipsy tribe the same one that cursed Angelus and who just found out how to perform that curse again to release Angel's soul. She dies that episode. You have Tara who Whedon was really cruel to. She was a recurring character for three seasons. Then he puts her name in the opening credits for the first time making her a main character. She dies that episode. On Firefly Wash was just a good pilot and he's like the comic relief of the show. He does this really cool thing in the movie and gets out of dodge from ALL the reavers and ALL of the Alliance. They finally land safely and are ready to get to the next part of their mission. He says the one liner "I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar" and right then he dies. So Hawkeye would never have died in that movie. He's a founding member of the Avengers and has done a few (albeit undervalued) things for the group. But then you have Quicksilver. I don't know if nobody liked him. Technically nobody liked Wanda either and nobody liked Selvig and the other Thor characters. But they were all safe because the movie showed them having some kind of function in the background. Pietro was just a fast guy. He made a few quips. He got on Hawkeye's nerves. But he really didn't do too much until the final battle where his speed was helping to save people in his home town and take out a number of ultron bots. So it was a Whedon move to make to kill him off as soon as he saves the Avenger people thought was definitely going to die. The "he didn't see that coming" was meant to be sad because that was his catchphrase the whole movie. It wasn't literally meant for the audience and it wasn't really a surprise for Ultron either. It was just Pietro's dying words or something of a "you didn't see me being the self sacrificing hero of this movie coming." Anyway if he had lived I don't even know if the romantic subplot of Wanda and Vision would have been able to happen in a natural way. The two of them were very close and the only reason we had for Wanda and Vision was that he saves her in the movie after she decides to stay behind and seek revenge for Pietro. Then in Civil War she's alone so Vision is there to comfort her, watch over her and then admit that he likes her. If Pietro was alive don't you think he'd be the one to watch over her? And what would his feelings be towards the Accords? Red says that he'd side with Tony but would he? He's still pretty jaded towards establishment. Yes he's ok with Tony now because he sees Tony's character change but that shouldn't affect how he views coming from a dead failed nation like Sokovia. I doubt he has too much love for the governments of the world. And when that governing body I don't know IMPRISONS HIS SISTER it's fair to say he's waving Cap's flag in a heartbeat. The thing is their relationship would not devolve so much that if Wanda was on Cap's side somehow Pietro would pick the other side. So you'd even end up with uneven sides with a super speedster added to the mix. Not to mention Black Widow's and Black Panther's turn by the end of the movie. You'd basically have a story where Tony's done something stupid again and Cap wins by a landslide. (I mean he already did but now even more so.) Or worse you basically replace Hawkeye's role in this film since who would you really call to get Wanda out of the compound? Hawkeye with his awesome arrows? Or Quicksilver who could whiz her out from under Vision's CGI nose? And he could be the emotional center like Hawkeye was and he could "want the world to see her for who she is" like Vision did and so on. And he would probably side with the Avengers or maybe Shield and not just Tony so he'd view Tony's help the government subjugate the Avengers move as Tony backpedalling to his old ways. Now if we skip ahead to Endgame you'd have a few differences to account for too even if Vision and Wanda get together and then he dies and she gets dusted. For one the Avengers would be whittled down to the Iron Man team much more openly. And the Secret Avengers that Cap has with Black Widow and Falcon would be a much more fleshed out team with Pietro and Wanda and Vision all officially siding with him since Civil War. The movie would then play out a little differently with Vision not getting ambushed or at least have backup from Pietro right away getting them to safety. Cap would basically be running things like usual because the Secret Avengers forces would be so established that the fall out from Civil War meant almost nothing. So it would be a little embarassing to be caught off guard by Thanos after that. I mean even if they had to operate in the shadows you could have Pietro literally pull a Hermes and deliver messages between the different parties of the Secret Avengers to keep everybody in the loop. Now Endgame itself is another story. The creative team behind these movies had wanted the original Avengers to headline that movie. So even if Pietro was around and active he wouldn't really be a big part of the movie anyway just like Antman who's Pym particles allowed for the movie in the first place. If anything he'd be the one left to hold the fort while the others went back in time something like a "keep the world safe while we're away" kind of thing. As for the emotional baggage of a 5 year age gap and the unsnappening I point you to Spiderman. 5 years. People showing up in the same place they left. No discussion of people who were flying at the time reappearing in midair to fall to their deaths or how people might be in different relationships 5 years after their significant other got dusted or how the whole country of Wakanda dealt with 5 years with their leadership dusted. Not really Disney's forte. My guess is they'd even forget that Pietro was now 5 years older and at best mention that in a quip somewhere. I mean I have plenty of issues with Endgame as is but I'm sure I'd only be adding to the list with any Pietro development. And lastly because they sidelined all the other characters except for the first Avengers there would be no way they'd have Pietro confront Hawkeye. The whole thing with Hawkeye was about how Black Widow used to be a cold hearted mercenary assassin and did many bad things while Hawkeye was the Shield agent that took pity on her and forgave her. So to bring it full circle you have the reformed Black Widow now forgiving Hawkeye's murder spree as Ronin.
agreed an issue i had with endgame actually could have been fixed with him there spoiler: the scene where hawk eye and black widow fight over who gets to toss themselves off the cliff for the soul stone. I got the general feeling of the fight (clint would give anything to bring his family back and protect his best friend, natasha had less to lose and cared about clint seeing his family again) but it didnt impact me the way it was supposed to, partly cus i saw the result coming a mile away. honestly the ridiculousness of 2 people fighting over who gets to be the martyr actually made me crack up a little (I was literally smiling and holding in chuckles) and i had been wishing since for some third hero to be there too and just yell "NO meeeeeee..." and steal the bullet from them. quick silver would have been perfect for this tho he would have made this way more impactful if things had gone as red had said.
Pretty sure there's a meta explanation for that one, which pulled a plot twist on her dissection of it for me. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are both Avengers, so they should be in the MCU, but they're also (sometimes?) Magneto's kids, making them mutants, putting them firmly with Fox and the X-Men. So, it seems like they split the difference; Quick stays with Fox, and Scarlet isn't even mentioned there, while the MCU gets the Witch and kills the Silver. Not saying it couldn't have been done better, but if that was the reason, it makes perfect sense.
David Bost It also could be that both Marvel and Fox wanted to use Quicksilver. X-Men Days of Future Past came out first and Quicksilver was quite popular. Marvel might have known that their version would be less popular (which was true) so they decided to kill him off, thinking that they could get more out of killing him than keeping a less successful version. Could explain why it kind of feels last minute and how it has very little effect on the characters. Just my theory though. Don’t have much proof but that’s how it seemed to me.
Honestly sometimes having the audience go “HA I knew it!” Is way better then having them go “wait, what?” Its infinitely more satisfying when you know your right
To bring up another part of the video, that's related to why I hate spoilers so much. I want to go "ha, I knew it!" not "yup, someone told me that was going to happen"
@@catherinestickels2591 I dont watch trailers for movies I know I'm gonna see. Mostly because I can watch them and know most of the plot these days but also I got Major spoilers for the Megamind movie when I was a kid From the Trailer!!!! Spoil below Metro man being alive was spoiled cuzz in they had 5 min if him at the beginning and i saw him with the beard in the trailer which only happens later
@@Beacuzz Trailers can be kind of hit or miss depending on what info they end up spoiling and how the entire thing is structured That spoiler there, if it's shown for a few seconds at best, creates intrigue: sure, you know that there's a sort of bait-and-switch, but what caused that? What's the effect? How do people react? What is anything about the context? Knowing that tidbit of information mucks up the _surprise_ but it often replaces it with _curiosity_. It's sort of like there's three responses. There's the unspoiled "Ha, I knew it!", where the viewer guesses at what's going on (but it isn't _so_ predictable as to tell the audience ad verbatim). There's the spoiled "knew it, someone told me". But there's a third where there isn't really a reaction at all. The twist doesn't subvert expectations, because you already expect it, but the story is written well enough (and the spoiler is so isolated) that it doesn't turn to disappointment. Instead, it just disappears. It becomes an expectation like any other part of the story. It's the same sort of thing that happens with a number of tropes implemented in good media. A lot of the times, we know what's going to happen: we have an idea what a good story looks like, so we can predict certain trajectories. The main character isn't going to die, she's going to go through some hardships, hero's journey, yadda-yadda. We don't get in a tiffy over those sorts of "spoilers" because everything else in the story basically detracts from that. There are finer details that we're invested in. That parts are predictable doesn't mean it's bad - not if we aren't paying attention to predictability. It's also in this area that plot twists become a problem and turn into "shock value". We may know the trajectory of the plot, but we're in the state of not really caring about it because the entire rest of the story has our attention. This is the sort of stuff that leads to fan speculation for serials, or anticipation and curiosity about the finer details of a plot, how characters react, and so on. If you throw a major plot twist into that state - one to change up the broader expectations - the audience gets yanked out of their microscopic world back into the macroscopic. This is basically how Game of Thrones imploded.
Plot twist twist: Quicksilver was _so fast_ that he had time to move them out of the way, go find a bottle of ketchup, return to the scene and fake his death. He's been alive the whole time. Bet you didn't see that coming.
I feel like most of the writers working on the MCU aren't clever enough to do that, but that *would* be fucking hilarious. (And would make that outtake of Hawkeye choking him out even funnier.)
I have a headcanon rhat X Men Quicksilver is Wanda’s younger brother who was given up for adoption due to the growing war, given the same name as his brother, adopted by a couple and immigrated to America, and somehow was born with the same abilities as his older brother
Agreed. Except for the part where Quicksilver sides with Tony in Civil War. I have a _lot_ of trouble believing he'd be that stupid. I couldn't buy that Vision was that stupid, either, but I choose to justify it as the Jarvis loyalty overriding Vision's logical reasoning. Natasha at least _realized_ how stupid she was being halfway through. Peter, on the other hand, didn't get the other side of the story. Why would Tony give him that side of the story? That makes perfect sense. T'Challa was mad at Bucky, the man he believed responsible for his father's death, a perfectly legit reason to side with the man assigned to take Bucky down. Pietro, on the other hand, isn't at all the ludicrous conformist moron that Tony made himself into, he isn't driven by rage, and Tony basically put his sister in lockup. I cannot fathom why Pietro would take Tony's side.
I don't know, it's rare to see the entire global internet break about a show ending. I could see people grumbling about GoT long after glaciers become a rarity.
So, about five years, then? Maybe ten? I know I'm looking for a nice place well above current sea levels and considering how to keep migrating (ex)polar bears out of my trash already.
Remember, "Uncle Ben dies" is still technically a plot twist, even though it surprises exactly 0 people, because it changes the trajectory of the plot.
It wasn't even a twist that they killed off all the good characters. At that point, it was like drawing straws. Bran just happened to draw the short straw.
Dang it finally someone referenced The Good Place I was honestly SHOCKED when we found out they were all in the Bad Place after all, and it makes sense!
I honestly feel like The Good Place did a good job of pulling off all of its plot twists. Like I feel like anyone who wants to write a plot twist, should watch Game Of Thrones and The Good Place, to see how plot twists can be done both poorly and well,.
And they managed to one-up it: "Nobody has gotten into the Good Place in over 500 years." And right there, it re-contextualizes everything we've seen so far and sets us up for the final season; we realize the system of the afterlife itself is broken, and it's up to our heroes to fix it.
I loved Spiderverse a ton when I watched it. A few months later, I was talking to a girl in my high school gym class and it turned out that she was Brian Michael Bendis's (co-creator of Miles Morales) daughter (Olivia Bendis). That was certainly a plot twist. Might even be the biggest plot twist of my life, tbh.
@@guesswhatthisisnotmyrealna9510 Duude I was so suspicious about the phrasing of that line and I even muttered to myself “not yours to conquer, it’s mine…”
It's nice to see a TH-camr say "if the story is predictable, it means I'm getting my plot points across without losing anyone. It means I'm doing my job" makes me feel like so many people get so concerned about making their story interesting that they're actually filling out a checklist rather than writing characters who are actually relatable.
Hell, at this point audiences are so primed to expect twists that there are numerous films where the twist is that there is no twist and the exact thing that you were told to happen did happen, and it is genuinely a surprise and a shock/delight.
@@UnreasonableOpinions Have I got the show for you, then. Tangled the Series has *multiple* layers of twist in the season 2 finale. They directly told the audience the episode before that someone would betray Rapunzel, and throughout the episode, lead you to think it would be Eugene, but toward the end, have him avert the prophecy. So you'd expect that the big twist would be that there wasn't a twist and no one betrayed her. But then, in the last few minutes, the plot twists again, where not only *is* there the twist, but the prophecy was about Cass, not Eugene. Add the reveal that Eugene's a Disney Prince suo jure, and that's at least 4 twists in one episode
I think there's a place where the twist and the predictability can meet in the middle. My favorite bits to write are where I build up to a moment where several things can happen, all of them have impact on how the story develops, and none of them are narratively off the table. The audience sees the twist coming, but still doesn't know how it will play out, only that the stakes are about to be raised.
No less a person than George Lucas apparently said "they became cliches because they work," hence a lot of his work embraces old tropes. Which is an interesing way to do it because when you DO decide to do something different, it might come off as all the more surprising. If done well.
I honestly really loved the female Doc Oct reveal in Spider-verse. My jaw dropped when she told Peter B. her full name and was like "Yup, Peter's in trouble now."
And speaking of spoilers, I loved that this reveal was saved for the theaters instead of getting spoiled in the promotional material/sneak peaks. I don't think it would have been as much fun (on the first viewing) if it had been revealed early.
AnnaStones IKR!!!! I thought for a moment, “Wait? Is she related to Doc Oc?” Then she revealed that she was Doc Oc I was surprised. I was like, “no way.”
Well lets think if there is any hints prior to the reveal... Liv is shown in many parts of the movie before her significance is clear. The movie is built around a super high tech science thing. Liv is a scientist working for the head bad guy. The movie demonstrates that each universes version of Spiderman covers a huge variance of demographics/things. Knowing all this if I were asked "Who is Doc Oc?" I would say it was Liv. However I wasn't asked, so when the reveal happened I was all "AW MAN I SHOULDA KNOWN!" cause it only made sense.
Also it fits very neatly into the rest of the story. Pre reveal Liv is shown as the dorky scientist under the thumb of big bad. This draws the question as to why Liv did not shut down the project when she knew it would harm people and set her up as the person who would help the Spidergroup. She then break all of this by making a statement that translates to 'human life has no meaning compared to science' because she is a villain.
@@robertdicke7249 even bigger for me was the twist that she wasn't a hapless scientist unknowingly helping a villain's scheme, but after the reveal it's shown that not only is she herself a villain but is the one actively manipulating Kingpin instead of the other way around
One case of a twist congratulating itself that I really like is the Doki Doki Literature club one. I feel like that twist pats itself on the back hard, but I love how they handled it. They had a character literally say "Isn't it amazing when a writer can deliberately take advantage of your own lack of imagination to completely throw you for a loop?" when the game is still pretending to be a cutesy dating sim. Then after the twist, when everything is turned on its head, that line shows up again, spoken at the same moment in the story that just looped. It's both funny and a way of creating that retroactive context within the natural progression of the story by pointing out the obvious foreshadowing we missed the first time.
And it’s IMMEDIATELY followed up by Yuri saying “Anyway, I’ve been reading a lot of horror lately.” It’s almost TOO on the nose, which makes it all the better that no one going in blind ever sees it coming.
TBH I would never have played DDLC if I hadn't known it wasn't just another Japanese dating sim, no matter how hard anyone pushed it on me. Because, no. IRL dating is cringe enough, these actual dating sims are like a _Don't Hug Me I'm Scared_ episode where the dating app starts singing to them. So pretty close to webisode 3
@@VinemapleIt keeps up the façade for a surprisingly long time too. In college my friend group started playing it together--each of us voicing a different character. It was a lot of fun, but we didn't actually get to the subversion. We ran out of time in the school year. I later finished it on my own and found out we stopped maybe 10 minutes before the twist.
"And I'm pretty sure they didn't mention him in Civil War." Here I am, in 2021, watching WandaVision, and they've only just now mentioned Quicksilver for the first time since his death.
eh, sure he is helpful for his powers, but his character is a bit too lacking in real substance, fanfiction has other, better, methods to do the same changes
I still like the hishe how it should have ended joke where xmen QS runs so fast he breaks time and space, shows up in between frames of Avnegers, and pushes age of ultron QS in front of the guns ship before going back to the xmen movie.
A question from someone who didn't watch that or any superhero movie - exept the first Deadpool - nor realy cares about superheroes: Why does getting placed behind an upturned car save you from getting shot by a machine gun? It's just two layers of a few millimeters of mild steel...
@@Bird_Dog00 Doesn't have anything to do with superheroes. Just the Hollywood trope that guns don't shoot through things, unless it's dramatically necessary for them to do so.
I remember watching Spiderverse with my husband and realized the Prowler twist less than a minute before it happened. It was one of the most rewarding movie-viewing experiences I've ever had where I figured out a plot twist before the reveal.
Foreshadowing, so long as it is not overdone, is part of what binds together a story into a coherent narrative. I actually actively seek out spoilers if I don't already know the author/director/original story because if after hearing the finale the rest loses interest then it wasn't worth the bother of more than a Sparknotes version anyway. Though GOT was good enough from a costuming and makeup standpoint, combined with some lovely world-building, to make it worth watching no matter how disappointing the end. Regardless, my preferred genre of psych thriller exists because of a good chunk of people who love foreshadowing. Catching on long before something is stated outright feels like an accomplishment and makes the audience a participant of sorts rather than purely an onlooker. Note: prophesies tend to be lazy foreshadowing, been that way at least since the ancient Greek plays. Making the interpretation tricky but stating the prophesy outright put more of the audience on the same page.
I never really watched game of thrones, but it was so fascinating to watch something that everybody loved and talked about for years just disappear from public consciousness in a few weeks
I watched the whole thing, but was never super invested in it, so I had the interesting experience of not immediately being as pissed about things as other people I knew, but also just seeing how what they were going for just didn't really work mechanically despite some people trying to defend it. (also, one funny anecdote, when Jamie first abandoned Brienne, it seemed to me that everyone was being stupid for thinking he was actually going back to Cersei when I thought he was obviously pulling a "I have to make you hate me so you won't follow me into this incredibly dangerous thing I have to do," but it turns out I was the stupid one)
@@gerstein03 I meant more in my circle of friends, family and school and the people I watched on TH-cam, they hated on 8th season for like 3 weeks than never talked about it again until house of the dragon came out, but as a whole it definitely lost a lot of popularity very quickly due to the 8th season
That... alternate future with Quick Silver in it... HOW THE HELL DID YOU MAKE ME FEEL FRUSTRATED ON A MOVIE THAT WAS OVER YEARS AGO?! I was fine until you made me see that light!
One of the original drafts of Endgame has Hawkeye going back to Sokovia instead of the Clint family farm, grabbing Quicksilver and bringing him to 2023, where they could patch him up, and telling Pietro “You didn’t see that coming.”
Same it wouldve been interesting to see quick silver grow to be more of a mature then all of the other avengers throughout the other movies such a waisted potential
The issue there is with Quicksilver in the X- Men movies, there was clashing rights to the character meaning keeping him alive could have left one company open to a legal dispute. The probably organized a behjnd the scenes deal where the MCU gets Wanda and X Men gets to keep Quicksilver
*Red repeatedly says she has not watched GoT and then proceeds to properly and fully dissect the final season more completely in 3 minutes than most people do in 30* That’s how you do it
It is why she got much of it wrong though. Everyone was not of the same mind. Everyone dd, not ave their expectations subverted. Many, many people though Danny ended up exactly where they expected her to based on the character eats for years. sad, but expected. They weren't sure Arya was to kill the night king, but thought all of that was for more than just revenge kills. etc. The only consensus is that things were rushed. Maybe if she had watched it she'd have seen Danny coming as she did Quicksilver's death; it was not hidden.
@@therealeverton yep she had no idea about GoT, it wasn't the plot twists that messed it up it was 8 seasons of building up the night king for him to be sniped by Arya who had already attained god mode powers(in 1 episode), as you say, Danny wasn't a plot twist, it was just rushed and poor writing
@@sineadthomas2024 It's literally been telegraphed for most of the series. She's a cruel and horrible person to those not on her side and the audience was just meant to also hate those people for most of the series and missed it
Signs Aliens: “Commander, nearly 71% of this planet’s surface is covered in a lethal substance. Additionally, it makes up 0-4% of the planet’s atmosphere. Are you sure we shouldn’t wear suits?” Commander: “Did I stutter?! I said no suits!”
There was actually a really interesting headcanon that i personally adopted thay makes the movie a lot better and make a lot more sense: the "aliens" were actually demons. I forgot how the theory went but its about a pastor losing faith and this phenomenon happening concurrently; the little girl is held up as innocent and pure and its water she drank from that hurts the aliens or something. It actually hurts the aliens because its holy water and theyre demons instead
You know what would be bigger than that? finding out Just some Guy without a Mustache doesn't have a mustache in real life but he has a cool beard instead.
Honestly, my favorite twisty movie is Knives Out. There's several twists, you think you know what happened fairly early on, but that's all turned on its head, and I would absolutely watch it again and again despite knowing the outcome because all the characters are so well written
Oh yeah, Knives out is BEAUTIFULLY constructed with several clever obfuscations, and several excellent injections of information that guide us juuuust right. XD
Now this is just my opinion, but I thought the total change in tone was strange and unsatisfying. When the cool detective character played by Daniel Craig got pushed out of the main focus and started talking nonsense about a donut hole that was actually a donut and had an even smaller donut hole inside of it, that was one of the things that kind of lost my investment for the rest of the movie.
I can imagine an "It's all a dream" scenario where the dream actually impacts the plot. Like, if the experience of the dream effects the main characters behavior and compels them to do something they'd never would have before, then that would make the events of the fantasy still relevant without being directly causal. A Christmas Carol can be a good example.
There is a game I played a few years ago that basically pulls this and was like "Hey, nothing you experienced was real. BUT, it was still important. Because even though none of the decisions you made were "real"...They still matter. Because right now, you're being judged for ALL OF IT." And if you found a particular audio log and paid attention to a handful of little cues, you might in fact see this coming like I did and go "...Oh my god I was right...HOLY SHIT this is clever!"
@@AegixDrakan another is that the villain was afraid of your power or knew you would reduce his plans to ash in an instant, so he put you in a coma to make sure you never interfere. This could make a Villain like N'zoth who was served an disappointing final boss battle that never lived up to the hype surrounding the boss. there are other people talking about the disappointing Finale Raid Ny'olotha, which i like, but do see why many people felt disappointed. I Think Krucial Came back After a year of not posting WOW based videos, just to complain about the final boss and the lackluster Raid. I think an "it was all a dream" would fit with The theme of N'zoth being the manipulator behind the curtains, plus brings back a Villain to do some justice.
I feel like there's a lot of potential for a plot that's really meta with this. Like, "It was all a dream, but isn't this all fiction anyways? Are your dream realities any less real than the words put to page? The connections you've made?"
@@AegixDrakan something similar was pulled off in Rick and Morty's Season 4 Episode 6. !SPOILER WARNING! So in the episode Morty makes fun of Rick for not being as genius as he used to be, and convinces him to build a device that can turn back time in order to 'prove himself'. Morty then uses the device to do all sorts of crazy stuff, as he can turn back time and cancel the repercussions. The amazing twist comes right after Morty returns with the device after a couple of messed up events, saying he's had enough of the device, and admitting that life really is nothing without consequences. To his surprise though, Rick answers: "Oh, but there were consequences, Morty", explaining that Morty's actions were not erased by the time travel, because he was transported to another universe instead. As a result, every time he did minor stuff like catch popcorn with his mouth over and over, he was killing thousands of Morty's from other universes. While it's true that the foreshadowing to this twist was little to none, the twist works great in the sci-fi context of the show, and I was genuinely surprised by it.
HD Gamer Music LOL I’m glad I didn’t, but the best thing about JoJo is that the plot is still so interesting and “bizarre” you’d still find enjoyment regardless of the spoilers. Make your whole plot interesting, not just particular parts and you’ve got a good story :-)
same thing here. and because of it, when i actually started to watch jojo, i was always like OH LAWD IT'S HAPPENING. so spoilers dont actually affect that much.
@@omegabet3912 I just started Jojo and still wondering when I'm gonna see Jotaro. Like geez here I am thinking I'm gonna watch Jotaro him kicking ass with Stands and here I am watch Joseph fighting some knights with light punches
the more I watch it, the less I like it. Last time I did, it just felt like I was waiting to get to the good episodes, many of them had the purpose of fleshing out the world, but when you already know it, it's just filler.
showrunners: add foreshadowing to their stories fans: predict the ending using the foreshadowing, look forward to the ending and feel smart for figuring it out showrunners: panic because nO wE nEeD tO sUbVeRt ExPeCtATiOnS and hastily rewrite the ending to be an unsatisfying plot twist fans: feel cheated and lied to, on top of being unhappy with the new ending why do people keep doing this
This reminds me of how DMing in DnD works. You have to remember that you write the plot *for* the players and if they're theorizing the plot (especially if they're right), it means they care and are invested and your goal is to make them happy so stick to the plot and don't shift it for surprise's sake
This is my theory about Lost. By the end of the first season, almost everyone talking about the show (and it was a LOT of people, because it was pretty damned interesting a concept and execution) had posited the idea that The Island was some sort of Purgatory for the characters to work out their issues from life before they could move on, or perhaps to be judged and cast to some sort of Oblivion/Hell when they failed their tests. So the writers came out and said, very publicly, "No, no, the Island is a real place, it's all happening in the real world." Then they scrambled like made so that it only became a Purgatory after the opening of the Vault, which made even less sense, completely wrecked any chance of making the various mysteries (like the Numbers) solvable, and totally destroyed any chance of the entire series being viewed positively by virtually anyone.
@@runtergerutscht4401 This! Let people have fun figuring out the clues you laid down. If they get it wrong, they still get the fun of the, "WHAT?" or, "Man, we should have seen this coming." If they get it right, they get the satisfaction of figuring everything out, that "ha! I knew it!" moment. Both options are fun. Just don't change your story to force one of those outcomes, let people feel like they are apart of the world and are learning about it.
To paraphrase Gorge RR Martin: If you write it so the butler did it, then people see the change coming so you change it so the chambermaid did it in the last chapter... then you've just written a bad story
@@h1302mm FUCK. YES. Especially in mysteries. the whole fun of reading old Hardy Boys books when I was a kid was that I could solve the case right alongside them. not to mention what the bad twist can do to characterization...
seeing this again makes me think of Wandavision. Like yeah, they throw a dead pietro there (as a bad twist again) but imagine Red's version. Can you imagine the amazing interplay that could happen if she had brain-washed her own LIVING brother into a part on that show? THAT would be an amazing way to end the series, with her finally realizing how she was actually hurting people, not just hearing the now-unsuppressed thoughts of strangers, but seeing his 5-year-older "I dealt with this, I understand you, but it hurts me" face and having THAT be the moment she decides to let go of her show? it would be AMAZING
That would have been cool. But i honestly prefer the idea of the people of Westview telling her what she's really doing. Her breakdown and immediate decision to release them shows that she cares for people who aren't family or friends but strangers that she swore to protect as an Avenger. If Pietro was the one to tell her that it would kind of come across as "Wanda only cares about the people who are actually close to her" and it would make her look very selfish.
@@mellemadswoestenburg1296 You could play it off as "Pietro" being the moral side of Wanda manifesting. Like after Vision points out to her that the people of Westview are being hurt of her brainwashing and Wanda being in denial, that her consciousness creates Pietro to help her snap out it. So it's still her realizing that she hurt everyone in Westview. You could even have stuff like Pietro having some sort of sitcom rivalry with Agnes as Wanda's consciousness could've realized that Agatha is the one pulling some string behind the scenes. You could even have him trying to be a buddy to Vision to help him guide towards the truth and have Pietro tag along on Visions investigations so that Wanda's consciousness could see what she is doing. But it's played off like the irresponsible brother trying to be a friend to the uptight husband you see in sitcoms and maybe give a bit of a red herring that Pietro is trying to stop Vision instead of helping him.
But they undo all of the “I care about people” stuff in DSMoM. She kills and destroys whole worlds, and only when her children are scared of her does she stop. She almost unleashes THE head demon for her family. They could have done so much more with her and QS as foils. QS sides with Tony which causes the rift, maybe Wanda is still pissed at Tony and part of her begins to hate QS too. To repair his relationship, maybe he switched sides, or maybe Wanda controls his brain a little, show the beginnings of her madness. He wants to help his sister, “sorry Tony, but I can’t lose her” something like that. As we go into Infinity war, he’s helping Cap and we see him and Wanda have drifted. She’s focused on Vision and He’s now angry that she went to such lengths just to abandon her for a robot. He steels himself and he slowly migrated into the “save Bucky” gang. We see them fighting an evil threat and QS taking some sort of lead role. He being a hero while his sister is still clinging to ideas of family but not living up to them, maybe in the Wanda and Vision scene, Vision asks “why don’t you help your brother.” After Wanda shows him pics and looks sad about family. And Wanda can’t answer, or maybe she does but says, “he’s changed” and then vision says, “and you haven’t” Wanda says nothing because they get attacked and go help the Rest of the Avengers. As they all meet in Wakanda, we see QS and Wanda have an awkward scene and lose some of the sibling pettiness that has been showed. QS has been working through his grief and Wanda has been stewing in it, maybe Thanos (in this version super evil) points it out and says, something to the effect of, “more death in your family pot” something - I’m bad at dialogue. Wanda is gutted at visions lost and goes berserk having almost destroyed Thanos and some other avengers in the process. QS having Dealt with his sister before must grab her and run with her away from other people. She lashes her blind rage out at him, and he must run before he dies. As Thor shows up, and Thanos goes to Snap, QS is a second to late. We the audience realize that maybe he could have stopped it if he wasn’t dealing with Wanda. As he goes back to the spot her left her, we realize she’s gone. He falls to his knees, curtain falls. 5 years past, QS has been sad but fighting as he’s always done. (in this version we have an actually fleshed out Natasha) he’s been healing and fighting with the Remaining save Bucky squad. The day is saved but Nat dies tragically. QS was using her a a surrogate big sister. He’s damaged, but determined to reunite with his sister, but she returns mad, she destroys so much, she then leaves. We now have Kinda Evil Wanda, someone to mourn Nat and a sad boy. Keep everything but the Enternals and rewriting WandaVision to have QS in the Show. Now we can set up a new gen of heros and have Wanda as an overarching big bad. We now on earth have: She Hulk(Daredevil still sad boy) Bucky Falcon turn Eagle(because America) Photon Ant-Man Daredevil and the New York Squad BP And QS We give the old guard Bucky and Falcon their own thing and Make them gay because duh. Give Ant Man less screen time and give it to his better written daughter. Give Shuri and QS a team up, both grieving for/with their siblings and their people. Now he’s a big brother, she helps him heal. Photon working with Sword goes to NYC and she teams up with the NYC squad, all now better written and better. She Hulk gets her own thing and in the end we have a new avengers team: Eagle Bucky Photon QS BP SH And like one person from the NYC gang maybe Matt but I’m leaning towards JJ because I love jaded Pyshics. The rest are protecting New York and dating She Hulk. They have like 2 movies but In the end Wanda - who had been a big bad. Comes and kills many of them SH quits going on active missions when DD dies and steps into to protect his home. ANT MAN ALMOST Dies which is not that sad but I put it in caps anyway. JJ leaves. Photon dies, BP protects her kingdom and Eagle and Bucky go back to protecting the world from Hydra. QS is the last of the earth people actively being an avenger, the second movie closes with him sad with no more Shuri and a looming threat. And a mysterious not saying “go find Peter Parker” We also have Space heros like Thor The Guardians Enternals(keep them just get a better writer) Cap Marvel (Give them all movies and keep them in space fighting a big bad, maybe have Thor heal some more and rewrite his love story to make his last 3 movies more cohesive with a proper send off, and send Love to earth to fight with the young kids ^see next^) And we have new Up and Coming hero’s like Unremebered Spidey Ms. Marvel Squirrel Girl(because we need that) America Stature Maybe iron heart Young Hawkeye And Maybe the Twins. (TV shows for most - can definitely condense SG into MS. marvel and if written well enough they could totally do a 12-15 episode 5 man band of SG, MM, America, IH, and YH. Have Stature develop with her dad, and give up on Wiccan until the end of Wanda’s/QS arc. Then give them a movie when the come together and help a now older spider man - who they all remember some how and have to help - QS as leader) We end with QS not leading the superheros and going to therapy after killing his sister. And we have back Tom Holland, yay! Also I think it’s the most fitting to have a team full of women to help him realize his baggage. We end with him dedicating his life to helping raise the twins and him finally having the family he’s been searching for. We also fighters of the dark shadows that lurk in the background: Fury MK Blade And those characters from Werewolf at Night. (Give them like TV shows and call it s day, nothing too deep with them maybe have Fury be the one to write the note after he becomes a watcher maybe follow the comic format and the reason that Eagle and Bucky aren’t fighting anymore is because they are rebuilding shield. Multi-verse crap: DS Loki (I feel like mix DS and Loki, I want to see that duo so badly, have themes of change and growth for the man children. Maybe have them show up in the last battles of both the Enternals/space guys and The New Kids - have them collide some how, idk maybe having Wanda resurrect the Enternal to grant her wish of her children. Something like that. Idk, I just want more QS
Though the age gap could’ve led to interesting conflict where they’re out of touch and she feels as if she’s lost her brother since he’s so different than she remembers, leading her to make the “right” Pietro
"I've absorbed more of Game of Thrones through pop culture osmosis than I remember from some shows I actually watched." sums up my knowledge about that series, along with that annoying browser game ad that was everywhere.
Timon you know I can just nearly remember reading a comic somewhere where one of the characters have an ability call plot armor that literally works as plot armor until one of the villains on it find a way to disable all abilities. well then you can Probally guess what happens next.
Timon is that a trope or is that just an example of a writing pitfall? usually it’s just bad writing, and if it isn’t it’s probably the prophecy trope, which she already covered
Tommy hasn’t seen star wars yet ehh I’d say it’s a trope at this point. Characters that can’t die. If they did the entire story would end. Ilbasiclly with out these characters the story has no meaning
A good plot twist shouldn't leave you thinking "I didn't see that coming" they should leave you thinking "I SHOULD'VE seen that coming" because it will make the little details make sense when you finally find out what's actually going on
!!! Yes! Ned Stark’s death in GoT season one is actually a great example. If you don’t know what happens when you first watch it, he dies and you’re like “well, yeah, of course he died - So why the HELL did I think he’d survive?” It’s surprising at first but obvious in retrospect
"Do not be afraid of the obvious." - Philip Pullman. I think writers should heed this advice more often. P.S. Thanks for another awesome Trope Talk, Red.
Cure Starlight I don’t. I think they should heed the nuance of how anything done poorly is poor. Some plot twists are fantastic. Some are a mess and sometimes I know something it going to happen and the writer makes me hope it will or won’t and sometimes they make me think okay whatever yawn.
Plot twists can be good, but not if youruin everything with it. Thats why jon lnding in the north, tyrion becoming the kings hand and sansa becoming queen of the north. They ruined jons a bit by making him a moron, and making him killing dany underwhelming, but him not wanting to be a king and going in retirement was build up. Him being in the north was enjoyable, he should have been going there on his own volution. Tyrion and sansa thankfully never got the forced twist treatment.
That's how I felt after season 1, episode 22 of Code Geass and seeing Lelouch accidently use the Geass on Princess Euphemia. "Oh; so instead of letting Euphemia's plan go into action and fall apart, you're instead going to have her die from a contrivance? Cool twist (sarcasm)."
Matthew St. Cyr As much as I hate that part of code geass, it WAS foreshadowed with both the previous Mao arc, showing that a Geass can and will grow out of its users control, and Lelouch’s geass seemingly acting up earlier in the episode. Contrived, yes, but it didn’t come out of nowhere
@@theonegoldengryphon Foreshadowing does not justify a twist; it only hints at it. There were far better ways to make his geass activate on its own with tragic consequences.
A good plot twist is when it makes the audience go "oh, that makes sense. That's why this thing happened, or that's why they act like that!" Some examples are: - Over The Garden Wall, where it is revealed in the final episode how Wirt and Greg ended up in the Unknown, and how the Unknown is not connected to the real world. We don't see it coming exactly, but it's also not a random twist thrown in to shock the audience. It explains why their outfits are so strange (because they were dressed up for Halloween), it explains why these two are the only characters who speak in a modern slang (except for Beatrice also), and it explains their whole reaction to the scenario. - Almost any of Agatha Christie's stories have a seemingly unexpected plot twist, but as the criminal's actions and motivations are explained, we realized that it is not out of the blue. When we re-read the story, we are able to catch glimpses of the criminal's suspicious behaviour throughout the story. - Toy Story 3 where the pink bear, whatever his name was, turns out to be the villain. His story almost mirrors that of Woody's and Jess's, basically being forgotten by an owner. And since this fear is talked about before, the plot twist doesn't seem hard to believe. - Gravity Falls where Stan is revealed to have a brother who he had been working hard to get back. Stan, generally portrayed as a hilarious and morally grey character, had already shown signs of holding a secret from the very beginning. It also puts into place some other incidents such as when he was heartbroken over the damage of a figurine that looked like him, because it reminded him of his twin brother. But at the same time, we get suspicions of the author of the journal being Fiddleford McGucket or even Stan himself.
I’d also go with volo from weirdly enough Pokémon. The entire game I was frustrated with the character because he didn’t make sense to me. Then he gets revealed and my thought wasn’t “huh?” or “ahha, I knew it” it was “oh, that’s why he had a different personality in every interaction”.
Not gonna lie, I'm in the same boat of GoT as Red here, but every GoT fan I've seen since then, when it rarely is brought up these days, is pure disdain for not only the last season, but the entire series consequently. I genuinely think that the show fans would've been sad if they got Firefly'd, but as it is the feeling seems to be "the ending was so bad it invalidated the journey" and that in turn makes it feel like the seven and a half seasons they spent giving a shit were outright wasted time. Usually "anything crap can be ignored, a bad ending beats none" works out, but I think it really was so supremely unsatisfying as to have been better if the series was open-ended.
I'd rather not have an ending than have a shit one, cause if you dont have an ending, than you can imagine what happened to everyone, but if you have a shit ending, you just have to live with it being shit
FB contradicts Harry potter canon but does it contradict it's own canon? I honestly never saw it as being in the same universe as Harry potter not as a prequel or anything else. Just curious I'm not a serious fan so I don't know.
@@AlrycaAeveaHexendias SPOILER WARNING There's a twist that the obscurist guy (can't remember his name off the top of my head; he's got a bowl cut?) is actually a Dumbledore which could happen but if they try to say he's Dumbledore's bro that doesn't make sense because we know Albus' family members from detailed descriptions in the 7th original book.
I've heard plot twists described as "when all the little things that didn't add up suddenly do". My personal favorite example is in Legend of the Guardians, with the traitor (won't spoil it). It was amazing because we figured it out at the same time as Soren. I usually spot things coming at least one scene before it's revealed, so it was nice to get it at the same time as the MC.
Having read and loved the books, I actively hate that movie. But even I have to admit, they did the twist well. Technically that twist doesn’t execute until several books after the ones the movie covers, giving a lot more time for buildup of this terrifying monster with a metal beak, but they did well with what they had.
@@Red-in-Greenwell, no surprise zack snyder directing style made the whole movie prototype ant man and wasp with kang quantumania movie tonewise, dead serious kang in a crime sitcom superhero movie world going flash gordon style of quantum realm and star wars type of multiverse from my point of view the same way zack directed his superman trilogy, watchmen and especially 300 the most.
And it does fit, to be honest. Arrogant Queen who hated being powerless believes her Castle will protect her, dies in said Castle, powerless and begging for life. A good Knight who was hated by the rest of the world and was morally conflicted by the vows and oaths he took dies freed from any vows and ends his life comforting his family And their dad's notoriety began by burying enemy families to death. Be was obsessed with legacy and family, and his legacy ends with his own family buried to death.
I can understand both sides of the spoiler argument. There are times when a spoiler made the movie disappointing, or made it more fun. What really grinds my gears is when I get a spoiler, but no one tells me. Let me spoil Megamind for you. The plot basically is subversive Superman tropes. 2 planets dying, 2 babies arrive on earth, one privileged, the other raised in literal prison. Privileged becomes a superhero, prison baby a villain, Megamind. Megamind then kills the hero in the first 20 mins, gets depressed and makes a replacement. Towards the end of the second act, maybe beginning of the third act, it is revealed that the hero faked his death to avoid responsibility and become a terrible musician. Villain realizes that he could be a hero if he wants to, and destiny doesn't really contain him like he believed, saves the day, happily ever after HOWEVER. Many of the trailers I saw before going to see Megamind started with the idea, "What happens when the hero decides to hang up his cape?" Followed by a clip of the hero in a bathrobe, unshaven, unkept, probably unwashed, saying, "I-I'm done." And it wasn't until 20 mins in that I realized, oh no, that was the plot twist. I felt so robbed. It's one thing to ruin the shock by spoiling something, intentional or otherwise. At least you know going in what you know that you shouldn't. But when you're sitting there for half an hour waiting for the hero to announce his retirement, and realizing that's not how it's going to play out, it's incredibly frustrating, deflating, and destabilizing.
I remember back when Stargate SG-1 was being produced on the Sci-Fi Channel... the upcoming episode trailers spoiled things ALL THE FREAKING TIME. One episode, the narrator for the trailer even outright said something like "You won't believe what happens", and then less than a second later, the trailer shows you. So most of the plot twists the writers put out ended up hitting like your experience with Megamind. There's a reason that in the 200th episode, the characters are discussing plot twists because of the premise of the episode, and General O'Neill has just showed up on-base after he'd been reassigned to the Pentagon over a season ago because Richard Dean Anderson had left the show to spend more time with his family, and Carter says, "Are you kidding? It'll be spoiled in the trailer." And yes, it *was* spoiled in the trailer for that episode, her line included.
I remember seeing that. It was different for me. I only saw trailers with clips from the first twenty minutes, so seeing "Metro-Man's" skeleton was a major WTF moment for me.
That's a pretty big fuck-up alright. It's not even 'we're not confident we could sell the untwisted version of this' like 'T2-arnie is the good guy now'-promotion-panic. The 'untwisted' version is substantial, the story sold by that marketing is not the issue the protagonist actually faces. Not only did they sell a different movie by revealing that twist. They sold an inferior movie by hiding it was a twist.
@@emmae2520 Dumbledore and Iron Man deaths are not plot twists though, Darth Vader revelation is. We already knew Dumbledore would die because he was sick, the plot twist was Snape murdering him and going with Voldemort. And self sacrifice was the ending of Tonys arc, so anyone who analized his character could see that coming.
"I've absorbed more of 'Game of Thrones' through pop culture osmosis than I remember from some shows I actually watched." Laughed to find I'm not the only one! To the point where, although I didn't care how it ended, I _did_ care whether it ended well or badly, and could tell the difference.
This`s the same with me, but scratch out GoT w/ VLD. Everyone and their fucking mother went batshit after the hellfire that was Season 8, and it was practically impossible to NOT know what went down. I know every major plot point in VLD, and I`ve only seen Seasons 1 & 2. Hell, I didn`t even need to WATCH S 1-2, cause everyone had already gushed over it (VLD S 1&2 are considered the best Seasons of the series and have the most memorable moments by far) and how amazing it was compared to everything else.
@@joshlegacy1101 Yes I do mean Voltron: Legendary Defender. And I used the acronym cause I was too lazy to type that shit out every time I mentioned it.
Yeah I would pay good money to see that. Along the lines of what was said, do you think that the MCU could have possible gone this route if they had the rights for QS?
Maybe if it weren't for those goddamn copyright issues at the time. Maybe they had no choice but to kill Quicksilver because they knew Fox planned to milk their version and they didn't want to confuse casual moviegoers.
A really big example of a twist that ruins the story for me. Detorit become human. It's a story with a lot of problems but the twist where Alice turns out to be a droid not only ruins that particular relationship with her caretaker. Can not remember their name for the life of me. But it also makes a lot of earlier details really weird.
@@ananas_anna plz be joking cause man don’t disrespect Hank dawg. Him and Conner were the only good plot through and through. Only memorable characters.
I agree that Alice being a robot twist pissed me off. It was only made so that they could put her into that robot concentration camp. Besides that there was no reason for her to be a robot.
Yeah, it would have been great. Sadly though, Marvel didn't own the rights to the cinematic version of Quicksilver at the time, they were only allowed to use him for one movie. Add onto the fact that the infamous Ultimates version of Wanda and Pietro (where they're having a good old Lannister-style twincest affair) has become common knowledge, coupled with Whedon's love of axing one half of a couple, and the fact that Marvel is owned by Disney (who probably flipped their shit when they saw the deleted scene which implies that said twincest may be canon to the MCU, to the point that they may have made Pietro's death a MANDATE), which practically demands one "emotional" character death per movie, and you can see that poor Pietro (and his storyline potiential) never stood a chance.
I had known a little bit of Homecoming’s events leading up to it through media coverage, but nothing about the Vulture twist. One of the few times the internet was kind to me, which meant that when I got to that point, it was just a feeling of “ah, meeting the parents, this should be fuuuUUUUCKING GOD OH NO”
Vulture was very well done. That fucking scene with the traffic light as well showing that he's realised that Peter is Spidey was really cool to notice as well. A nice little visual flair
Which is why I personally feel like things like that shouldn't be spoiled, let people have that first experience of shock, they can always have the repeated watching experience, but never the 1st watching.
Also, IT’S OKAY IF FANS FIGURE IT OUT, THAT MEANS YOU’RE EITHER DOING GOOD, REALISTIC CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT OR YOU FORESHADOWED WELL, just don’t expect everyone to go “whoa, WHAT?” and instead expect “I KNEW IT!!!”
@@mythandmayhem1134 I really feel the current thought process is based off internet people going, "OMG so predictable, boring, I saw that coming from a mile away". So creators have to foreshadow without foreshadowing, so people can be surprised and no one can legitimately claim, "I saw that coming!" because the creator intentionally brought it from left field with no hints.
@@PokeMultiverse I mean I get that, but I would prefer a plot twist I read about months ago on the internet that makes sense than one that makes me go “wut”. Like “Virgil was a dark side” or “Dabi is Touya Todoroki”. Neither of those were shocking, the fan bases were honestly treating both as fanon, but the creators weren’t treating the viewers like the only purpose was to be bamboozled, if that makes sense?
@@mythandmayhem1134 It's the bomb scenario that Red brought up, but in a good way. You see the wires in a place wires shouldn't be, you follow them past barely visible cylinders that, with minimal light, appear red. And then at the end, you see the mountain dynamite prepared to explode. At which point, the difference between fanon and canon comes down to whether or not the fuse was lit the whole time. Is the fuse unlit, meaning it truly is fanon and the wrong trail was followed? Or does it turn out to be canon, where the surprise comes from the fact that the bomb DID go off and now reframes everything with such an appearance. Which, ironically, was Dabi's plan all along, and the purpose of a plot twist. To either steer the plot in a new direction or reveal something about that plot that forces you to re-examine it.
@@justinalicea1590 I think another way to describe it is you put the bomb in the scene, but it was hidden. You weren’t really expecting the audience to see it. Then they did. Now instead of the rewatch value of seeing the bomb for the first time, the audience is working together to figure out how and when the bomb will go off and what will happen when it does.
I went through a similar experience with Star Wars: since it’s such a pop culture hallmark, I knew the two big twists before watching the movies. The sibling twist fell flat for me as a result (especially given how ANH and ESB was baiting a romance between them), but the parent twist was still great. The suspense leading up to the parent reveal and the catharsis that came after meant it was still a great experience (especially since it doesn’t break any logic within the films)…which makes it a great twist imo (surely shocking for people who didn’t know, but still satisfying and logical for those watching later)
15:13 -- "When your plot twist looks directly into the camera and cheekily says, 'Ya didn't see that comin’?’ Please just… stop; and maybe fire your writers." Yes, I agree. That has gotta be one of the cringiest "plot twists" I've ever seen.
What Red failed to acknowledge there was how it was more of a dark joke ending the spat between Clint and Quicksilver (can’t remember his real name) as in his opening scene, he hits Clint and sarcastically says “What, you didn’t see that coming?” Much later in the film, Clint shoots a bullet through the glass floor and Quicksilver falls to the level below where Clint retorts back the same statement. My point in all this is that Red was biased while saying this and didn’t rewatch the movie to make sure she had her facts straight (she did a similar thing with time travel in Terminator 2)
@@lyhenglim6969 it does not, but it is always stupid to not mention the good bits of the thing you hate. Only talking about the worst bits of something (doing a leafy I call it.) it's is either a sign of weakness, being a jerk, forgetfulness, or a hidden bias you might not even have known of. In this case it's one of the last two.
@@gillbray2889 Hm that’s fair. I was just trying to say that while Aionic Thunder made a valid point, the twist was still negatively affected by the other things she mentioned. Though I do think her “wink at the audience” point still stands. In universe it’s cuz of the in-joke but to the audience it could so easily be interpreted as a way for the writers to talk to the audience that the context of the in-joke just doesn’t make it any better.
Man, now I'm thinking of a fight between Quicksilver and Wanda where Wanda gets her traumatizing touch (TM) in, but it doesn't work because fighting his sister and last living family member IS his worst nightmare Dang, that would be so sad
I think of spoilers like announcing a pregnancy. Sure, if someone went and told everyone before you got the chance it wouldn't make the baby less loved or special, but it was _your_ baby, it was _your_ moment to share and they took that from you. There's a reason people get pissed. You only get to watch something for the first time once.
@GippyHappy Yeah, but in your scenario, the only people who would be upset would be the couple/mother. In every where else, the fans are the one that get pissed because they think the thing would like is ruined. Yes, you can only experience something for the first time once. But unless that “something” was good, you’d probably wouldn’t want to experience it again.
@@thevideo-beast122 I am so confused by your reply. The whole point of my analogy is that it's not that spoiling something ruins the thing itself but rather that it removes the unique experience of learning/doing it the first time. Yes the roles are not exactly the same in this scenario but analogies don't exist to be 1:1 perfect comparisons. I feel like you entirely missed the point of what I said. I don't care if the move is bad or good, I want to experience it uniquely on my own and make my own judgement from there. Knowing things ahead of time will shape your view whether you want it to or not. Hell I had the experience of the (3rd?) shrek ruined for me because I kept expecting the characters to suddenly say "Now on DVD and blu-ray" like they did in the commercials and it was all I could think about the entire time. (just to be clear, I was a child at the time) Anyway, all this is to say it's really easy to not spoil things for other people, and just because you may not be bothered by it doesn't mean you should impose that upon other people who are. It's just common courtesy.
@@GippyHappy I’m sorry and I get what you mean. I know the courtesy of keeping my mouth shut when a) somebody who doesn’t want to be spoiled, or b) somebody want me to keep a secret. People who don’t do that are douches. The only thing I can’t agree on is the “Experience>the product” argument. From that logic, you could be watching poop-swimming and you wouldn’t get upset because you wasn’t aware of it before hand. To me, it doesn’t when, where, or how I see something, just rather or not how much I’m interested into it. And if I watch/would watch something that annoy, bored, or disgust me, my “experience” would be completely ruined.
“Oh and make sure to call him “Bran the Broken” because I bet the disabled members of the audience weren’t expecting to feel terrible today” 🤣🤣🤣🤣 💀💀💀 had me rolling
In one of the earlier Harry Potter movies, Dumbledore stands directly in front of a cabinet while discussing about how he knows he incredible close to the solution to his problem(Voldemort) and he's trying to figure it out. Directly behind him, in the cabinet, a silver symbol is there. First time I watched I didn't even notice it, but shortly after I'd finished reading the whole book series my family decided to watch all the movies- the silver symbol is the Deathly Hallows, and it was foreshadowing it ahead of time. Even the second time around, I was quite shocked and noticed several small details across the series like that.
@Greg Elchert If you go to the Harry Potter studios, there are a lot of deathly hallows symbols sneakily in the background of the sets, especially in Dumbledore's office. I don't think it's a stretch that J.K. Rowling could say "hey, this symbol will be really important later, so it would be cool if we could work it in now"
What's really weird about 'Terminator 2' is that the twist was actually spoiled in the trailers! They just couldn't help but tell everyone that Arnie was gonna be the good guy. So watching those first few scenes in the theatre was slightly surreal. It was like "the director is clearly trying to make us believe Arnie is still the bad guy, but we all know he isn't, this is weird".
Especially the Terminator films seem to be plagued by this problem. Imagine being a movie director who tries his darndest to build up to a good twist and the marketing people are like "Soo, we will put that in the trailer you guys. Cool? Cool."
Oddly enough, this is why I especially enjoy watching reaction vids from Zoomers towards T2, because they usually DON'T know it's coming. It's really fun seeing people being surprised by the reveal.
"Pretty sure they don't even mention him in Civil War" They don't. Never watched Age of Ultron and genuinely didn't even know Quicksilver was in any of the Avengers movies.
He never gets mentioned by name, but Hawkeye refers to him as the reason he sides with Cap and rescues Wanda. "Besides; (glances at Wanda) I owe a debt".
@@matthewmuir8884 Still... Pietro deserved better than half a movie. I am now quite sad we didn't get to see Red's alternate story for him. Except for the bit where Pietro sides with Tony in Civil War. I have a _lot_ of trouble believing he'd be that stupid.
@@f.i.r.e.5119 True; I just wanted to point out that the Russo Brothers did salvage things somewhat by using him as Hawkeye's motivation. Of course, all this is ignoring the fact that Marvel probably wasn't allowed to use Quicksilver for more than one film; the deal with Fox at the time seems to have been, "You get Scarlet Witch, we keep Quicksilver".
@@matthewmuir8884 *remorseful sigh* And now we're getting shoehorned-in X-men after the drawn-out copyright struggle. Because after aliens, Professor Hulk, and Wakanda's outreach programs, Mutants will _totally_ face scrutiny for how normal they all are by comparison.
Another thing that makes an *obvious* plot Twist incredible good without having to come out of complete left field is how the characters *in-Series* react to the twist. A good example of this, I think, comes from Attack On Titans with the reveal of just *who* is the Armored and Colossal Titans were. The hints were there ever since the reveal of The Female Titans, our main characters suspected the the truth, but the disturbingly casual way it comes out in the series by the Armored Titan and the sheer *betrayal* the main character feel about the confirmation makes the twist an absolute gut-punch of the best kind and it changes the story for the better, and in the end it all advances the series to take new, interesting and logical paths and starts the seed of the exploration of the world outside The Walls in fully.
I stopped watching Attack on Titan after episode 12 or 13, the one where Eren first uses his Titan form to defend against an attack by carrying a rock or something idk it was many years ago.
And learning about Marley in Season 3 was also a great twist. All the clues were been laid through out the story, allowing us to speculate and form our own theories. Which turned out to be right. But at the same time subverts expectations by giving us more info and expanding on our understanding of what we suspected
AoT season one was good but a little rough around the edges. Season two was better, season 3 was even better, and season 4 was even better. Unfortunately, having read the manga, I know that the ending is going to be shit unless they do some major reworking when adapting it into the anime. Some people think the final arc was bad, but I disagree. It did have some writing and pacing issues, and wasn't quite as strong as what came before, but overall I still think it was pretty good, and was on track for a perfectly satisfactory conclusion. But the last three chapters...Jesus fucking Christ, what the hell happened? For years I'd been in awe of AOT, and defended pretty much every single decision Isayama had made. But when 137 dropped I was just utterly dumbfounded by the nonsense I was reading. And it only went downhill from there, as 138 managed to be even worse, and 139 was by far one of the worst things I've ever read. Many comparisons were drawn between AoT's ending and Game of Throne's, and while I can't say for certain since I haven't seen Game of Thrones, it sounds like the comparisons are apt in terms of how badly they butcher the story.
When you said AoT I fully thought you would say the reveal of Eren still being alive, it was obvious sure, but after spending 3 episodes with Mikasa as the main character and learning why she cares about Eren so much it's really beautiful and touching to see her be so relieved that he's still alive
I'll do you one better: good writers don't try to "entertain" their either real or perceived audiences, they try to write cohesive stories that they themselves would've enjoyed and see who'll stick with their vision and style of storytelling.
Love how GoT is already completely irrelevant. Like, that ending was so bad we collectively decided to forget about the show. The Arctic Ice Cap has barely just started disappearing completely in the summer!
If anyone's reading this and agreeing wholeheartedly I implore you to rewatch Dany's character arc! The ending didn't come out of nowhere, and was something I and many others called a few episodes in advance
@@katsenpai6957 yeah, a few episodes which undid like seasons of character development, season 6 already showed flaws while deviating from the books but season 8 was the culmination of D&Ds declining investment in the series and lack of overall care.
@@katsenpai6957 Dany's arc was hinted at but the it was handled poorly. Up until that point it felt like she was actively fighting insanity and you could argue that everybody she killed up to that point deserved to die. I think the show just needed a couple more seasons (something HBO wanted but the writers insisted they could wrap everything up in 6 episodes) to really show her falling deeper into madness to prevent it feeling so abrupt to most the audience. To me, Mad Queen Dany was believable but everything else I wouldn't buy if the show had 10 more seasons
5:45 Or even better, just have an ompitent narrator announce: "one of these people will be dead by the end". Now you're in suspense and wondering who, how, and why.
That is exactly what the Spider-Man comics did with Gwen Stacy's death. It was even on the cover of the comic "one of Spider-Man's loved ones will die"
@@ellie8272 Comics of old pulled that one way to often. The first Sentinel-Storyline endet with an issue for which it was announced that "A character will die". I mean, it was a three issue old character, who was basically the original villain of this arc, but sure. Let's advertise with that. My point: I think when it came to Gwen Stacy people probably already expected a cop out and did not believe it.
I've seen this been done but just by having the story not be in chronological order, e.g the story, chapter, arc, episode or whatever starts with the news that one of the characters of a team we care about has died. But before we find out who it is, the story goes back to the beginning and we watch the mission from the start and we're kept in suspense to see who dies.
A good retroactive twist in my opinion is the reveal from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (specifically movie version) that Mad Eye Moody was played by an imposter since the beginning of the year. It is a good and shocking reveal, especially if you've never read the books before, and when rewatching the movie, you can notice a ton of big and small hints. Snape complains about missing ingredients for Polyjuice-Potion while Moody is often seen drinking from a bottle with unknown content, the chest with seven locks that one can hear human sounding screams from, him arriving on a dark and rainy night, framing him in as much darkness as possible, that weird tongue flick we see sometimes that is later shown on Barty Crouch Jr. when he goes mad in the courtroom, his very specific interest in Harry's success in the tournament. These all work well, even though we should have probably been suspiccious from the start, since he is the new Defence against the Dark Arts professor and that alway caused problems in the years before. Actually, on that note, it sort of is a double subversion of expectations since movies one and two establish the DADA teachers as always evil in disguise, three subverts that with a genuine nice teacher with some dark personal problems, and then comes four where we don't have the expectation of "he must be evil" anymore and are kinda in the mindset of "he could be really nice, the one before was".
Excuse you, Chamber of Secrets had Lockhart; he was incompetent, which revealed his lies and cowardice and general lack of personal responsibility, but he was not evil.
@@alexfierro1500 I don't know, erasing peoples Memories, claiming their heroic deeds as his own and stealing their success does not scream good guy to me. Maybe not on the same level as Voldemort, but still.
@@alexfierro1500 Old Lockhart wanted to erase Harry and Ron's memories and leave Ginny to die in the Chamber also with a cover up story that they found her mauled body in the chamber and that the boys had lost their minds over the sight. That is pretty fucked up and puts him at least somewhere on the Evil Spectrum.
The best part of the Moody reveal in Goblet of Fire is the fact that Moody is, indeed, helping Harry win the Triwizard Tournament. Why would one of Voldemort's henchmen be trying to keep Harry alive? As good as it is, though, for me it's nothing compared to the Prisoner of Azkaban retroactive twist.
What really worked with the Prowler reveal was that it sets up future suspense, especially for anyone familiar with the comics. There, Aaron had no issues with trying to murder Miles even after knowing who he is. So the audience, including me, is left wondering what he’ll do when he finds out. And when he puts the mask back on Miles, it seems like he’s making it easier on himself to kill his nephew. Thankfully for Miles, the power of love prevails. Unfortunately for Aaron, he’s the uncle in a Spider-Man origin story.
Rise of Skywalker is easily the worst of all the SW films. Even the Ewok Adventures were better constructed as stories, albeit cheap, corny, and childish.
Agreed. The Grandpa Palpatine twist was bad for a few reasons, but the biggest for me are that it ultimately meant nothing and the original path for Rey's story was more interesting. Revealing he's Rey's grandfather halfway through the FINAL movie in the trilogy meant they had no time to actually explore that dynamic and what it meant. Luke found out Vader was his father in ESB and spent nearly all of RoTJ dealing with it. For Rey it's basically "Your grandpa was a Sith Lord, so you should be tempted by the Dark Side. Go let him take over your body." And Rey's original story from TFA and TLJ was simply more interesting. Someone who wanted to be part of something special completely in denial that her parents abandoned her and were never coming back until it's completely shoved in her face. That feeling of loneliness gives a somewhat believable reason why she'd be tempted by the Dark Side when it's Kylo Ren offering that hand of friendship, one of the few people Rey had developed a deep connection with and who's saying she should just forget her painful past.
I remember reading a fanfiction with the "they were dead all along!" twist and it was written amazingly. Legit I loved it so much because of how it was foreshadowed and executed, it also triggered my thanatophobia so that isn't fun.
I remember reading one like that too, it was presented as a crack fic, then in the ending chapters it was revealed thru the world breaking and eventually the MC accepting his death, really well written and the reason i now read all the tags lol
This is partially why I don’t like spoilers. I love the first shock of a twist. Afterwards, you will get the suspense. But if you’re spoiled you’ll only get the suspense. If you’re aren’t spoiled, you’ll get both
That requires a rewatch though, and not everyone has the time to do that. If a series, especially a long one that is 5+ hours, ends on a major twist, I would rather than the 5 hours of suspense, and deeper appreciation due to noticing the clues, than 1 minute of shock and 5 hours of nothing.
@chinsaw2727 They didn't say THEY gave out the spoilers they said they LIKE spoilers. At least, that's my interpretation because I feel exactly the same way - I almost always seek out spoilery reviews because that A: tells me more about whether I'm going to be happy spending my time on this piece of media and B: it allows me to enjoy the suspense and spotting the planting and payoff. That said, I know a lot of people really like to be surprised, so in talking to someone about the latest book/movie I'm excited about I'll usually stop halfway through and go: "Wait, are you likely to want to read/watch this? And, if so, would you be upset if I told you what happens?" If they say "yes" I'll stop; if "no" or "yes, but I don't care about spoilers", then I'm free to rant about the twists.
@@no-ku6jp I actually do agree with this as someone who's been spoiled for major plot twists (voluntarily, mind you) before, though it does depend on how much you know about the twist beforehand. There are some twists that, if you know what the twist *is* but don't actually know the circumstances or timing of it, can be a totally different kind of suspense compared to a second viewing. You know it's coming, but you don't know when and you're dreading it the entire time. (I can't remember any specific examples at the moment, but I know I've been exposed to twists like that before.)
the best plot twists dont ALWAYS need to be foreshadowed but in the LEAST they need to make sense. like an evil character who helps the main character can betray then in the final act. they're evil, it makes sense.
It can also be a character or story that is a bit shady or off, like the good place where one element was weird, but makes sense after the twist. Characters can be weird too like tht one of tower of god, if youmke someonw a secret bad guy, either give a backstory that make sense or show them as off or ambivalent at times.
I think one of the funnier cases is when an evil character betrays the main character even though they've saved them beforehand. Like in the original Metal Gear, Big Boss (well, Venom Snake, but you know) reveals a good chunk of the way in that he's actually leading the uprising at Outer Heaven and he's been manipulating Snake to have him sabotaged and killed. Only this happens 90% of the way in and most of Big Boss's advice and assistance up to that point has been genuinely helpful. He doesn't start feeding false info until so deep in the story that Snake is already on the verge of undoing his entire scheme.
Reminds me of a childhood show i watched called "Secret Saturdays" Argost (Antag) helped Zack (Protag) in a couple of episodes as they both had similar powers. Argost blatantly stated "Of course i'll be plotting behind your back!" So it came to no surprise when it happened.
Retroactive twists? "On this planet you call females who have yet to become adults: Girls. It makes sense then that since you'll eventually become witches, you should be called: Magical Girls"
Dabi's reveal in My Hero Academia is a great example of a twist set up, done right, feels relevant, earned, and affects the story so well and has such an impact
Agreed. Like, sure, there a lot - and I mean a lot - of people who figured it out, it made sense. But when it was finally revealed - oooohhhh boy! Endeavor’s shell shocked reaction, Shoto’s disbelief, the full backstory - everything about it felt earned, that includes if you figured the twist out. Honestly, Dabi’s reveal is one of my favorite modern story twists, right along with female Doc Ock and Uncle Aaron being the Prowler in Spiderverse. Reveals still give me chills!
@@mick3405i liked it, but i think should have come sooner. Like, come on dude there are like 3 people who have fire power, no reason to drag it own for so long. Maybe instead of having some random villain when they were training with endeavour, have Dabi be the main antagonist of that arc, have him attack his own brother, and now it doesn't come off so late in the gamw
Congratulations Osp, you've made meme fame. There is a subreddit called r/mythologymemes and people have started using still frames of your videos as meme templates
13:39 There is actually one "This fun adventure was actually all a dream" story where "it was all a dream" actually works as a twist: Link's Awakening. It's revealed midway through the game that the fantastical island he's stranded and needs to wake the legendary Wind Fish to escape from is actually just the Wind Fish's dream. If he completes his quest, the Wind Fish will wake up and he'll be back in the real world, but the island and all the people in it will disappear.
The manga version even has Link go into an existential crisis, as he knows that if he wakes the Wind Fish, he'll essentially be killing everyone (or worse, considering that dreams may or may not have an afterlife), including all the island's inhabitants like Marin and her father. He even tries to leave the island by raft but to no avail, and decides to stay on the island forever until Marin convinces Link to wake up the Wind Fish anyway.
It's not the same thing if the dream or hallucination is part of the plot rather than just negating the events of the story at the end. There are several mystery games that came out in the last 7 years where the unusual situation the characters find themselves in is actually virtual reality, a dream, or a situation like The Truman Show. It's something that you figure out over the course of the game that recontextualizes the things that have been happening, and the games' events have consequences to the characters despite not being "real." It'd be different if zero hints were given of these things and then just when they were about to face the villain, the characters heard, "And cut!" and they were on a television set. That kind of twist makes no sense and is only good for shock value. That's what we mean when we tell writers not to make everything be all a dream.
@@ThanhTriet600 I agree that there is a big difference between the dream being part of the plot and being tacked on at the end; that was my point, that Link's Awakening worked because it was a different kind of, "It was all a dream" twist.
Also applies to the 'sureal character study' stories, where a character has to go through strange places, experience odd events and meet weird people that are only held together by subtle hints of symbolism. In that sense, a dream twist makes it easier to contextualise all of the weirdness and encourages the audience to theorise about the the character's struggles that must have led them to experience such an elaborate adventure in their mind.
One of my favorite twists of all time is Mysterio in spiderman ffh. Absolutely everybody who knows anything about marvel comics knows that Mysterio is one of Spiderman’s villains, so instead of trying to drag out the reveal for shock value they made it one of the campiest and fun scenes in the whole movie. It’s a straight up party as they’re celebrating getting one up on the teenager who just watched his mentor get killed.
I enjoyed it, because it seemed like it was poking fun at the idea of the MCU shifting towards being so silly and outlandish that people would believe in his BS alternate universe backstory. Then Doctor Strange Multiverse of Madness happened, and I realized we're fully in comic book ridiculousness now...
I watched it with my dad. I knew about the Mysterio reveal, dad didn't. The moment Quentin asked for the glasses, dad knew. It was a twist for him, a treat for me.
If you want something good with Quicksilver, then you should read Remember This Cold by Lise on Archive of Our Own. It’s exactly like the MCU except a bit more queer and Steve/Loki is a thing but it’s done really well sooooo
Good. Just write what you think sounds good and then worry when your done! I'm sure if you showed it to people they would give you meaningful help that you could use to improve, and even reading it yourself can reveal issues. That's why theres a backspace key, no writer is perfect on their first draft! Edit: not really to good
"The twist is less interesting than not having the twist": The Village is a 2004 American period horror film written, produced, and directed by M. Night Shyamalan. ..
@@matheussanthiago9685 I honestly like the concept of Unbreakable and even knowing the twist there's a part of me that wants to rewatch it. Then there's the rest of me that remembers the time I tried and got so bored I couldn't even get 20 minutes in. Why is it so slow? How is it so slow? I felt like I might have slipped backward in time it was so slow.
I'm trying to write a story with a massive plot bombshell at the end. I was worried for a really long time about "wait, what if they figure it out too early?" but Red, you've soothed my worries. All that matters is that the plot twist changes the direction of the story and is appropriately hinted at.
The Spiderman Homecoming one is my favorite, when I first saw that my heart stopped, and all the way until he leaves the car is one of the most suspenseful scenes in any movie Ive seen
“Bet ya didn’t expect him, to be the, bad guy.” “Who is this guy again” “Johnson Smith” “Oh yeah, I love that guy...” “CEO of Johnson-“ “yeah that’s really- something”
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
In regards to the “what if quicksilver lives” it would also turn the “you know I’m five minutes older” into a bit of foreshadowing, with those five minutes turning into five YEARS.
It was twelve minutes, but yeah, that would've been a nice bit of payoff for that.
Oh gosh it's so PERFECT! WHY DON'T WE HAVE THIS?
i NEVER thought about how the movies would have been with quicksilver in it but DAMN now i WANT it!!
Shadowstriker Y’know what, I’m actually wanting to use that in a story I’m going to try writing now, thank you.
@@RinitaChan Good show. Hope it goes well.
Red: *explains the benefits of Quicksilver surviving*
Me: *starts mourning*
Agreed.
Except for the part where Quicksilver sides with Tony. I have a _lot_ of trouble believing he'd be that stupid.
I couldn't buy that Vision was that stupid, either, but I choose to justify it as the Jarvis loyalty overriding Vision's logical reasoning.
Natasha at least _realized_ how stupid she was being halfway through.
Peter, on the other hand, didn't get the other side of the story. Why would Tony give him that side of the story? That makes perfect sense.
T'Challa was mad at Bucky, the man he believed responsible for his father's death, a perfectly legit reason to side with the man assigned to take Bucky down.
Pietro, on the other hand, isn't at all the ludicrous conformist moron that Tony made himself into, he isn't driven by rage, and Tony basically put his sister in lockup. I cannot fathom why Pietro would take Tony's side.
@Joe
I think I'd be considerably more forgiving of Tony if he wasn't acting so blind to the very obvious pitfalls of governmental control.
I never claimed he _believes_ the U.N. was infallible. But his actions don't paint the best picture.
In hindsight, "stupid" was a poor choice of words. "Naive" fits way better.
@jocaguz18 yeah i agree. Civil war did present the ideals very weakly. There's a lot of reasons to register super-powered people that can take down entire nations.
If you want something good with Quicksilver, then you should read Remember This Cold by Lise on Archive of Our Own. It’s exactly like the MCU except a bit more queer and Steve/Loki is a thing but it’s done really well sooooo
tl;dr warning
Some people agree with Red about the Quicksilver death. I want to first point out why it happened and then get into why I'm not one of those people.
So Quicksilver dodging bullets isn't as easy as it seems when it comes to MCU Quicksilver. Yes he sees bullets in slow motion. But notice how in that clip where he sees it he doesn't react fast enough to do anything about it. He just sees the bullet already passing by and by the time he reacts the glass beneath his feet has already shattered and he falls. A scene I prefer to point to is later in the movie when he's speeding into battle and one of the cops holding up the citywide perimeter against Ultron accidentally fires and it hits Quicksilver in the arm. He's not fast enough to just know when bullets are coming at him and not fast enough to move himself out of the way if he happens to notice them. The MCU was a much more accurate portrayal of his powers and Joss Whedon is a very avid fan of comics so his Quicksilver is real. The X-men Quicksilver is nonsense. They were just going for flash and literally gave us the Flash. And that's why they put themselves in a corner after that because at any point why couldn't their Quicksilver just get everybody to safety? Science channels have had a field day with that too so you guys should check them out.
I'm not going to get into why studio politics got Quicksilver killed because everybody talked that to death already. But I want to get into how even though he was getting Hawkeye to safety he could still get shot. He's pushing either the car forward or Hawkeye forward. But he's pushing from behind Hawkeye so he's still out in the open and as I already established he's not fast enough to just dodge bullets that are coming at him. He can see them but that doesn't mean he can save himself. And Ultron's Quinjet guns fire much faster than the pistol that Quicksilver couldn't dodge either. AND Hawkeye was still hit by a bullet. Notice how when they get Pietro's body back to the Helicarrier transports Hawkeye's bleeding too. So the save wasn't even perfect and not nearly enough to get all of them to safety. My guess is the goal of the scene was to prioritize the child's safety who was being shielded by Hawkeye and so Pietro did his best to get Hawkeye to safety so the child would be safe and that last second move was too late to also get Pietro out of the way of the bullets since it barely got Hawkeye out of the way of all the bullets.
Now as for Hawkeye being on the chopping block that was obvious for more than one reason. Yes it was set up very obviously making it an easy red herring to spot. But we also have to look at the director Joss Whedon. Unlike most Whedon has a habit of killing off characters right when they seem to be important to the story for once and usually right after they've done something useful. For example there was Jenny Calendar in Buffy who was just found to be a descendent of some gipsy tribe the same one that cursed Angelus and who just found out how to perform that curse again to release Angel's soul. She dies that episode. You have Tara who Whedon was really cruel to. She was a recurring character for three seasons. Then he puts her name in the opening credits for the first time making her a main character. She dies that episode. On Firefly Wash was just a good pilot and he's like the comic relief of the show. He does this really cool thing in the movie and gets out of dodge from ALL the reavers and ALL of the Alliance. They finally land safely and are ready to get to the next part of their mission. He says the one liner "I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar" and right then he dies. So Hawkeye would never have died in that movie. He's a founding member of the Avengers and has done a few (albeit undervalued) things for the group. But then you have Quicksilver. I don't know if nobody liked him. Technically nobody liked Wanda either and nobody liked Selvig and the other Thor characters. But they were all safe because the movie showed them having some kind of function in the background. Pietro was just a fast guy. He made a few quips. He got on Hawkeye's nerves. But he really didn't do too much until the final battle where his speed was helping to save people in his home town and take out a number of ultron bots. So it was a Whedon move to make to kill him off as soon as he saves the Avenger people thought was definitely going to die. The "he didn't see that coming" was meant to be sad because that was his catchphrase the whole movie. It wasn't literally meant for the audience and it wasn't really a surprise for Ultron either. It was just Pietro's dying words or something of a "you didn't see me being the self sacrificing hero of this movie coming."
Anyway if he had lived I don't even know if the romantic subplot of Wanda and Vision would have been able to happen in a natural way. The two of them were very close and the only reason we had for Wanda and Vision was that he saves her in the movie after she decides to stay behind and seek revenge for Pietro. Then in Civil War she's alone so Vision is there to comfort her, watch over her and then admit that he likes her. If Pietro was alive don't you think he'd be the one to watch over her? And what would his feelings be towards the Accords? Red says that he'd side with Tony but would he? He's still pretty jaded towards establishment. Yes he's ok with Tony now because he sees Tony's character change but that shouldn't affect how he views coming from a dead failed nation like Sokovia. I doubt he has too much love for the governments of the world. And when that governing body I don't know IMPRISONS HIS SISTER it's fair to say he's waving Cap's flag in a heartbeat. The thing is their relationship would not devolve so much that if Wanda was on Cap's side somehow Pietro would pick the other side. So you'd even end up with uneven sides with a super speedster added to the mix. Not to mention Black Widow's and Black Panther's turn by the end of the movie. You'd basically have a story where Tony's done something stupid again and Cap wins by a landslide. (I mean he already did but now even more so.) Or worse you basically replace Hawkeye's role in this film since who would you really call to get Wanda out of the compound? Hawkeye with his awesome arrows? Or Quicksilver who could whiz her out from under Vision's CGI nose? And he could be the emotional center like Hawkeye was and he could "want the world to see her for who she is" like Vision did and so on. And he would probably side with the Avengers or maybe Shield and not just Tony so he'd view Tony's help the government subjugate the Avengers move as Tony backpedalling to his old ways. Now if we skip ahead to Endgame you'd have a few differences to account for too even if Vision and Wanda get together and then he dies and she gets dusted. For one the Avengers would be whittled down to the Iron Man team much more openly. And the Secret Avengers that Cap has with Black Widow and Falcon would be a much more fleshed out team with Pietro and Wanda and Vision all officially siding with him since Civil War. The movie would then play out a little differently with Vision not getting ambushed or at least have backup from Pietro right away getting them to safety. Cap would basically be running things like usual because the Secret Avengers forces would be so established that the fall out from Civil War meant almost nothing. So it would be a little embarassing to be caught off guard by Thanos after that. I mean even if they had to operate in the shadows you could have Pietro literally pull a Hermes and deliver messages between the different parties of the Secret Avengers to keep everybody in the loop.
Now Endgame itself is another story. The creative team behind these movies had wanted the original Avengers to headline that movie. So even if Pietro was around and active he wouldn't really be a big part of the movie anyway just like Antman who's Pym particles allowed for the movie in the first place. If anything he'd be the one left to hold the fort while the others went back in time something like a "keep the world safe while we're away" kind of thing. As for the emotional baggage of a 5 year age gap and the unsnappening I point you to Spiderman. 5 years. People showing up in the same place they left. No discussion of people who were flying at the time reappearing in midair to fall to their deaths or how people might be in different relationships 5 years after their significant other got dusted or how the whole country of Wakanda dealt with 5 years with their leadership dusted. Not really Disney's forte. My guess is they'd even forget that Pietro was now 5 years older and at best mention that in a quip somewhere. I mean I have plenty of issues with Endgame as is but I'm sure I'd only be adding to the list with any Pietro development. And lastly because they sidelined all the other characters except for the first Avengers there would be no way they'd have Pietro confront Hawkeye. The whole thing with Hawkeye was about how Black Widow used to be a cold hearted mercenary assassin and did many bad things while Hawkeye was the Shield agent that took pity on her and forgave her. So to bring it full circle you have the reformed Black Widow now forgiving Hawkeye's murder spree as Ronin.
*Red explaining what Quicksilver's potential was in the MCU*
Me: ...Shit that's good.
agreed
an issue i had with endgame actually could have been fixed with him there
spoiler:
the scene where hawk eye and black widow fight over who gets to toss themselves off the cliff for the soul stone. I got the general feeling of the fight (clint would give anything to bring his family back and protect his best friend, natasha had less to lose and cared about clint seeing his family again) but it didnt impact me the way it was supposed to, partly cus i saw the result coming a mile away. honestly the ridiculousness of 2 people fighting over who gets to be the martyr actually made me crack up a little (I was literally smiling and holding in chuckles) and i had been wishing since for some third hero to be there too and just yell "NO meeeeeee..." and steal the bullet from them. quick silver would have been perfect for this tho he would have made this way more impactful if things had gone as red had said.
They should hire her to write the next movies lmao. She did an awesome job there.
call AHH, we got a good one.
Pretty sure there's a meta explanation for that one, which pulled a plot twist on her dissection of it for me. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are both Avengers, so they should be in the MCU, but they're also (sometimes?) Magneto's kids, making them mutants, putting them firmly with Fox and the X-Men. So, it seems like they split the difference; Quick stays with Fox, and Scarlet isn't even mentioned there, while the MCU gets the Witch and kills the Silver. Not saying it couldn't have been done better, but if that was the reason, it makes perfect sense.
David Bost It also could be that both Marvel and Fox wanted to use Quicksilver. X-Men Days of Future Past came out first and Quicksilver was quite popular. Marvel might have known that their version would be less popular (which was true) so they decided to kill him off, thinking that they could get more out of killing him than keeping a less successful version. Could explain why it kind of feels last minute and how it has very little effect on the characters. Just my theory though. Don’t have much proof but that’s how it seemed to me.
Honestly sometimes having the audience go “HA I knew it!” Is way better then having them go “wait, what?”
Its infinitely more satisfying when you know your right
To bring up another part of the video, that's related to why I hate spoilers so much. I want to go "ha, I knew it!" not "yup, someone told me that was going to happen"
Or the in between where they’re like “oh! That makes sense! I didn’t think of that before, but it all ties together!”
@@catherinestickels2591 I dont watch trailers for movies I know I'm gonna see. Mostly because I can watch them and know most of the plot these days but also I got Major spoilers for the Megamind movie when I was a kid From the Trailer!!!!
Spoil below
Metro man being alive was spoiled cuzz in they had 5 min if him at the beginning and i saw him with the beard in the trailer which only happens later
@@Beacuzz Trailers can be kind of hit or miss depending on what info they end up spoiling and how the entire thing is structured That spoiler there, if it's shown for a few seconds at best, creates intrigue: sure, you know that there's a sort of bait-and-switch, but what caused that? What's the effect? How do people react? What is anything about the context? Knowing that tidbit of information mucks up the _surprise_ but it often replaces it with _curiosity_.
It's sort of like there's three responses. There's the unspoiled "Ha, I knew it!", where the viewer guesses at what's going on (but it isn't _so_ predictable as to tell the audience ad verbatim). There's the spoiled "knew it, someone told me". But there's a third where there isn't really a reaction at all. The twist doesn't subvert expectations, because you already expect it, but the story is written well enough (and the spoiler is so isolated) that it doesn't turn to disappointment. Instead, it just disappears. It becomes an expectation like any other part of the story.
It's the same sort of thing that happens with a number of tropes implemented in good media. A lot of the times, we know what's going to happen: we have an idea what a good story looks like, so we can predict certain trajectories. The main character isn't going to die, she's going to go through some hardships, hero's journey, yadda-yadda. We don't get in a tiffy over those sorts of "spoilers" because everything else in the story basically detracts from that. There are finer details that we're invested in. That parts are predictable doesn't mean it's bad - not if we aren't paying attention to predictability.
It's also in this area that plot twists become a problem and turn into "shock value". We may know the trajectory of the plot, but we're in the state of not really caring about it because the entire rest of the story has our attention. This is the sort of stuff that leads to fan speculation for serials, or anticipation and curiosity about the finer details of a plot, how characters react, and so on. If you throw a major plot twist into that state - one to change up the broader expectations - the audience gets yanked out of their microscopic world back into the macroscopic. This is basically how Game of Thrones imploded.
Like the Until Dawn killer
Plot twist twist: Quicksilver was _so fast_ that he had time to move them out of the way, go find a bottle of ketchup, return to the scene and fake his death. He's been alive the whole time. Bet you didn't see that coming.
He knew Wanda needed a rage boost to win the fight and THEN he realized she would kill him if he came back.
I feel like most of the writers working on the MCU aren't clever enough to do that, but that *would* be fucking hilarious. (And would make that outtake of Hawkeye choking him out even funnier.)
@@Hexagonaldonut introducing: quicksilver the disney+ series
I have a headcanon rhat X Men Quicksilver is Wanda’s younger brother who was given up for adoption due to the growing war, given the same name as his brother, adopted by a couple and immigrated to America, and somehow was born with the same abilities as his older brother
he'd get a jar of strawberry jam, accidentally stained his shirt, and was like "heeeey, I could fake my death"
I didn’t realise I needed the Quicksilver version of endgame until now
Agreed.
Except for the part where Quicksilver sides with Tony in Civil War. I have a _lot_ of trouble believing he'd be that stupid. I couldn't buy that Vision was that stupid, either, but I choose to justify it as the Jarvis loyalty overriding Vision's logical reasoning.
Natasha at least _realized_ how stupid she was being halfway through.
Peter, on the other hand, didn't get the other side of the story. Why would Tony give him that side of the story? That makes perfect sense.
T'Challa was mad at Bucky, the man he believed responsible for his father's death, a perfectly legit reason to side with the man assigned to take Bucky down.
Pietro, on the other hand, isn't at all the ludicrous conformist moron that Tony made himself into, he isn't driven by rage, and Tony basically put his sister in lockup. I cannot fathom why Pietro would take Tony's side.
@@f.i.r.e.5119 ctrl+c -> ctrl+v
@@night6881 You alao copied your comment.
Yeah well I didn’t feel like rewriting it that many times. Also my point still stands Remember This Cold is really really good
Eve Waller I want it all rewritten now
0:32 "--when game of thrones and the polar ice caps are a distant memory--"
Big oof.
I don't know, it's rare to see the entire global internet break about a show ending. I could see people grumbling about GoT long after glaciers become a rarity.
I see you everywhere
Homestuck?
So, about five years, then? Maybe ten? I know I'm looking for a nice place well above current sea levels and considering how to keep migrating (ex)polar bears out of my trash already.
Adding insult to injury
Big oof= Boof
Remember, "Uncle Ben dies" is still technically a plot twist, even though it surprises exactly 0 people, because it changes the trajectory of the plot.
Aunt may dies
Peter Parker dies
Everyone except deadpool dies
The Wizard of Oz being a fraud was written as a plot twist
In one of the parallel universes, Peter Park dies and Uncle Ben becomes Spiderman.
Me: I wonder what plot twist joke they're gonna start with?
*Sees Blue
11/10
I saw Blue, then my laptop died of shock.
And then they twist that twist by having Red go “no, we’re not doing that” and kicking him out immediately.
@@johnvarner5536 A plot twist INSIDE ANOTHER PLOT TWIST!
@@AaronDanarajF
Ooooooh... plot twist-ception...
I watched this numerous times and that still gets me
I like to imagine that there's a timeline or other dimension where Red's version of the MCU is cannon.
They made peters version of quick silver cannon so we can have whatever head cannons we want :)
He's probably alive in the Spiderverse world
and there's this random YT guy called Stan Lee who says that his version is better
If the multiverse theory is true...
And she is complaining that he didnt die in Age of Ultron
Good twist: "This is the Bad Place!"
Bad twist: "And who has a better story than Bran The Broken?"
It wasn't even a twist that they killed off all the good characters. At that point, it was like drawing straws. Bran just happened to draw the short straw.
Dang it finally someone referenced The Good Place
I was honestly SHOCKED when we found out they were all in the Bad Place after all, and it makes sense!
I kinda saw it coming just because it's from an episode of the Twilight Zone, but it was still really well done.
I honestly feel like The Good Place did a good job of pulling off all of its plot twists. Like I feel like anyone who wants to write a plot twist, should watch Game Of Thrones and The Good Place, to see how plot twists can be done both poorly and well,.
And they managed to one-up it: "Nobody has gotten into the Good Place in over 500 years."
And right there, it re-contextualizes everything we've seen so far and sets us up for the final season; we realize the system of the afterlife itself is broken, and it's up to our heroes to fix it.
I loved Spiderverse a ton when I watched it. A few months later, I was talking to a girl in my high school gym class and it turned out that she was Brian Michael Bendis's (co-creator of Miles Morales) daughter (Olivia Bendis). That was certainly a plot twist. Might even be the biggest plot twist of my life, tbh.
Spiderverse was just such a good film that it had the power to bring its plot twists into the real world.
Just go towards her, put arm over her shoulder and say "Hey"
You have a lame, lame claim to fame!
I always feel like the best plot twists are the ones that make sense when you go back and reread/rewatch a story, and you realize all the hints
The Zero escape series in a nutshell. Like it's insane on a replay how blatant the hints are but you don't notice them until the twists happen.
Attack on Titan 100%
"I don't think you understand, Earth isn't *yours* to conquer."
@@guesswhatthisisnotmyrealna9510 Duude I was so suspicious about the phrasing of that line and I even muttered to myself “not yours to conquer, it’s mine…”
steven universe did this SURPRISINGLY well. like, better than a LOT of other shows I've seen.
It's nice to see a TH-camr say "if the story is predictable, it means I'm getting my plot points across without losing anyone. It means I'm doing my job" makes me feel like so many people get so concerned about making their story interesting that they're actually filling out a checklist rather than writing characters who are actually relatable.
Hell, at this point audiences are so primed to expect twists that there are numerous films where the twist is that there is no twist and the exact thing that you were told to happen did happen, and it is genuinely a surprise and a shock/delight.
@@UnreasonableOpinions Have I got the show for you, then. Tangled the Series has *multiple* layers of twist in the season 2 finale. They directly told the audience the episode before that someone would betray Rapunzel, and throughout the episode, lead you to think it would be Eugene, but toward the end, have him avert the prophecy. So you'd expect that the big twist would be that there wasn't a twist and no one betrayed her. But then, in the last few minutes, the plot twists again, where not only *is* there the twist, but the prophecy was about Cass, not Eugene.
Add the reveal that Eugene's a Disney Prince suo jure, and that's at least 4 twists in one episode
I think there's a place where the twist and the predictability can meet in the middle. My favorite bits to write are where I build up to a moment where several things can happen, all of them have impact on how the story develops, and none of them are narratively off the table. The audience sees the twist coming, but still doesn't know how it will play out, only that the stakes are about to be raised.
No less a person than George Lucas apparently said "they became cliches because they work," hence a lot of his work embraces old tropes. Which is an interesing way to do it because when you DO decide to do something different, it might come off as all the more surprising. If done well.
@@UnreasonableOpinions Glass Onion. A plot that has several layers but you can see right through it to the core, right from the start.
I honestly really loved the female Doc Oct reveal in Spider-verse.
My jaw dropped when she told Peter B. her full name and was like
"Yup, Peter's in trouble now."
And speaking of spoilers, I loved that this reveal was saved for the theaters instead of getting spoiled in the promotional material/sneak peaks. I don't think it would have been as much fun (on the first viewing) if it had been revealed early.
AnnaStones IKR!!!! I thought for a moment, “Wait? Is she related to Doc Oc?” Then she revealed that she was Doc Oc I was surprised. I was like, “no way.”
Well lets think if there is any hints prior to the reveal...
Liv is shown in many parts of the movie before her significance is clear.
The movie is built around a super high tech science thing.
Liv is a scientist working for the head bad guy.
The movie demonstrates that each universes version of Spiderman covers a huge variance of demographics/things.
Knowing all this if I were asked "Who is Doc Oc?" I would say it was Liv. However I wasn't asked, so when the reveal happened I was all "AW MAN I SHOULDA KNOWN!" cause it only made sense.
Also it fits very neatly into the rest of the story. Pre reveal Liv is shown as the dorky scientist under the thumb of big bad. This draws the question as to why Liv did not shut down the project when she knew it would harm people and set her up as the person who would help the Spidergroup. She then break all of this by making a statement that translates to 'human life has no meaning compared to science' because she is a villain.
@@robertdicke7249 even bigger for me was the twist that she wasn't a hapless scientist unknowingly helping a villain's scheme, but after the reveal it's shown that not only is she herself a villain but is the one actively manipulating Kingpin instead of the other way around
One case of a twist congratulating itself that I really like is the Doki Doki Literature club one. I feel like that twist pats itself on the back hard, but I love how they handled it. They had a character literally say "Isn't it amazing when a writer can deliberately take advantage of your own lack of imagination to completely throw you for a loop?" when the game is still pretending to be a cutesy dating sim. Then after the twist, when everything is turned on its head, that line shows up again, spoken at the same moment in the story that just looped. It's both funny and a way of creating that retroactive context within the natural progression of the story by pointing out the obvious foreshadowing we missed the first time.
I really liked that game.
And it’s IMMEDIATELY followed up by Yuri saying “Anyway, I’ve been reading a lot of horror lately.” It’s almost TOO on the nose, which makes it all the better that no one going in blind ever sees it coming.
TBH I would never have played DDLC if I hadn't known it wasn't just another Japanese dating sim, no matter how hard anyone pushed it on me. Because, no. IRL dating is cringe enough, these actual dating sims are like a _Don't Hug Me I'm Scared_ episode where the dating app starts singing to them.
So pretty close to webisode 3
@@VinemapleIt keeps up the façade for a surprisingly long time too. In college my friend group started playing it together--each of us voicing a different character. It was a lot of fun, but we didn't actually get to the subversion. We ran out of time in the school year.
I later finished it on my own and found out we stopped maybe 10 minutes before the twist.
@@BFedie518 Oh, I know the feeling well... where you find out you quit just before the bit that would have kept you playing/watching/reading!
"And I'm pretty sure they didn't mention him in Civil War."
Here I am, in 2021, watching WandaVision, and they've only just now mentioned Quicksilver for the first time since his death.
And it’s a fucking **spoilers**
They do mention him in Civil War, just indirectly. Hawkeye says "I owe a debt" when asked why he's helping Wanda
i did not see it coming
(Red explains the benefit of Quicksilver surviving)
Me: I smell fanfiction
eh, sure he is helpful for his powers, but his character is a bit too lacking in real substance, fanfiction has other, better, methods to do the same changes
The fanfiction is "Quicksilver resolves the plot of every movie by running really fast" because he's pretty OP.
I still like the hishe how it should have ended joke where xmen QS runs so fast he breaks time and space, shows up in between frames of Avnegers, and pushes age of ultron QS in front of the guns ship before going back to the xmen movie.
A question from someone who didn't watch that or any superhero movie - exept the first Deadpool - nor realy cares about superheroes:
Why does getting placed behind an upturned car save you from getting shot by a machine gun? It's just two layers of a few millimeters of mild steel...
@@Bird_Dog00 Doesn't have anything to do with superheroes. Just the Hollywood trope that guns don't shoot through things, unless it's dramatically necessary for them to do so.
I remember watching Spiderverse with my husband and realized the Prowler twist less than a minute before it happened. It was one of the most rewarding movie-viewing experiences I've ever had where I figured out a plot twist before the reveal.
@Noob7Zilla
I once did the same with the Ninjago, Masters of Spinjitzu sequel where I guessed that the dad was the villain all along
@@noiwvernsonic1358 which one are we talking about here? That's happened a few times?
It was good for new fans, but it was old hack for me. Was hoping for it to be his mom or something unexpected this time.
Foreshadowing, so long as it is not overdone, is part of what binds together a story into a coherent narrative. I actually actively seek out spoilers if I don't already know the author/director/original story because if after hearing the finale the rest loses interest then it wasn't worth the bother of more than a Sparknotes version anyway. Though GOT was good enough from a costuming and makeup standpoint, combined with some lovely world-building, to make it worth watching no matter how disappointing the end.
Regardless, my preferred genre of psych thriller exists because of a good chunk of people who love foreshadowing. Catching on long before something is stated outright feels like an accomplishment and makes the audience a participant of sorts rather than purely an onlooker. Note: prophesies tend to be lazy foreshadowing, been that way at least since the ancient Greek plays. Making the interpretation tricky but stating the prophesy outright put more of the audience on the same page.
I never really watched game of thrones, but it was so fascinating to watch something that everybody loved and talked about for years just disappear from public consciousness in a few weeks
I watched the whole thing, but was never super invested in it, so I had the interesting experience of not immediately being as pissed about things as other people I knew, but also just seeing how what they were going for just didn't really work mechanically despite some people trying to defend it. (also, one funny anecdote, when Jamie first abandoned Brienne, it seemed to me that everyone was being stupid for thinking he was actually going back to Cersei when I thought he was obviously pulling a "I have to make you hate me so you won't follow me into this incredibly dangerous thing I have to do," but it turns out I was the stupid one)
Bruh that literally didn't happen people still talk about it to this day
@@gerstein03 I meant more in my circle of friends, family and school and the people I watched on TH-cam, they hated on 8th season for like 3 weeks than never talked about it again until house of the dragon came out, but as a whole it definitely lost a lot of popularity very quickly due to the 8th season
I wish that would happen to more things than TV shows
That's the power of hurried writing.
That... alternate future with Quick Silver in it... HOW THE HELL DID YOU MAKE ME FEEL FRUSTRATED ON A MOVIE THAT WAS OVER YEARS AGO?! I was fine until you made me see that light!
Well she just made me frustrated about a movie I didn't even see!
@Abraham Garcia
And maybe the quality of said Disney+ show would last more than half a season! (Very much _unlike_ CW's Flash.)
One of the original drafts of Endgame has Hawkeye going back to Sokovia instead of the Clint family farm, grabbing Quicksilver and bringing him to 2023, where they could patch him up, and telling Pietro “You didn’t see that coming.”
@@TheBingusBongus
Damn, I need that
@@TheBingusBongus
I _so_ need that.
Dammit, now I really wish Quicksilver didn’t die in Age of Ultron! Not every movie needs a twist death!
Same it wouldve been interesting to see quick silver grow to be more of a mature then all of the other avengers throughout the other movies such a waisted potential
Yup, my takeaway for the video was very much "oh god i wish Quicksilver was live"
Now I want an MCU with Red in charge of writing XP
His time in X-Factor actual backs Red's theory
The issue there is with Quicksilver in the X- Men movies, there was clashing rights to the character meaning keeping him alive could have left one company open to a legal dispute. The probably organized a behjnd the scenes deal where the MCU gets Wanda and X Men gets to keep Quicksilver
*Red repeatedly says she has not watched GoT and then proceeds to properly and fully dissect the final season more completely in 3 minutes than most people do in 30*
That’s how you do it
It is why she got much of it wrong though. Everyone was not of the same mind. Everyone dd, not ave their expectations subverted. Many, many people though Danny ended up exactly where they expected her to based on the character eats for years. sad, but expected. They weren't sure Arya was to kill the night king, but thought all of that was for more than just revenge kills. etc. The only consensus is that things were rushed. Maybe if she had watched it she'd have seen Danny coming as she did Quicksilver's death; it was not hidden.
@@therealeverton yep she had no idea about GoT, it wasn't the plot twists that messed it up it was 8 seasons of building up the night king for him to be sniped by Arya who had already attained god mode powers(in 1 episode), as you say, Danny wasn't a plot twist, it was just rushed and poor writing
Mr Negative And also antithetical to all her previous growth and character arcs
Hold up, if she hasn't watched GOT and then dissects it, what? RED BE ACTING KINDA SUS!
@@sineadthomas2024 It's literally been telegraphed for most of the series. She's a cruel and horrible person to those not on her side and the audience was just meant to also hate those people for most of the series and missed it
Signs Aliens:
“Commander, nearly 71% of this planet’s surface is covered in a lethal substance. Additionally, it makes up 0-4% of the planet’s atmosphere. Are you sure we shouldn’t wear suits?”
Commander: “Did I stutter?! I said no suits!”
"Can we at least wear helmets?"
"What are you, some kind of nerd?"
There was actually a really interesting headcanon that i personally adopted thay makes the movie a lot better and make a lot more sense: the "aliens" were actually demons. I forgot how the theory went but its about a pastor losing faith and this phenomenon happening concurrently; the little girl is held up as innocent and pure and its water she drank from that hurts the aliens or something. It actually hurts the aliens because its holy water and theyre demons instead
Budget cuts
"It contradicts canon or generally makes no sense when considered."
*Bad Plot Twists, thinking they're clever:* _"THAT WAS HIS MISTAKE!"_
THAT WAS HIS STEAK
@@Busshhu missed steak
@@theparrot6516 Mist AK
THAT MISTAKE WAS HIS
@@harisakma5733 HIS MISTAKE WAS THAT
The biggest plot twist will be finding out that Noobmaster69 is TheLegend27 in an alternate universe.
You know what would be bigger than that? finding out Just some Guy without a Mustache doesn't have a mustache in real life but he has a cool beard instead.
the biggest casual ever. moblie games and fortnite.
i see your bid and i raise you noobmaster69 being wade wilson
naw, I think it would be that just some guy without a mustache and just some guy with a mustache are the same person with different accounts
Hey it’s mr. mustache. What’s good
Okay I know y'all might have seen it coming but Blue starting off this Trope Talks is not something I expected and absolutely cracked me up
I found the Spanish intermission extremely amusing.
69th like, nice.
What would have ruined it would be if at the end, Red was revealed to have been Blue in disguise.
(Think _Mission Impossible_ masks.)
WateverWatever04 same
Hey! Stop spoiling it! Not everyone has seen it yet...
Honestly, my favorite twisty movie is Knives Out. There's several twists, you think you know what happened fairly early on, but that's all turned on its head, and I would absolutely watch it again and again despite knowing the outcome because all the characters are so well written
Oh yeah, Knives out is BEAUTIFULLY constructed with several clever obfuscations, and several excellent injections of information that guide us juuuust right. XD
I was looking through the comments to see if anyone else mentioned Knives Out!! I've seen it multiple times and I'm still finding clues!
Now this is just my opinion, but I thought the total change in tone was strange and unsatisfying. When the cool detective character played by Daniel Craig got pushed out of the main focus and started talking nonsense about a donut hole that was actually a donut and had an even smaller donut hole inside of it, that was one of the things that kind of lost my investment for the rest of the movie.
"You did it!" 😉
@@emmarichardson965 A little late but CinemaWins has a awesome video on it if you haven't seen it already
I can imagine an "It's all a dream" scenario where the dream actually impacts the plot. Like, if the experience of the dream effects the main characters behavior and compels them to do something they'd never would have before, then that would make the events of the fantasy still relevant without being directly causal.
A Christmas Carol can be a good example.
There is a game I played a few years ago that basically pulls this and was like "Hey, nothing you experienced was real. BUT, it was still important. Because even though none of the decisions you made were "real"...They still matter. Because right now, you're being judged for ALL OF IT."
And if you found a particular audio log and paid attention to a handful of little cues, you might in fact see this coming like I did and go "...Oh my god I was right...HOLY SHIT this is clever!"
@@AegixDrakan another is that the villain was afraid of your power or knew you would reduce his plans to ash in an instant, so he put you in a coma to make sure you never interfere. This could make a Villain like N'zoth who was served an disappointing final boss battle that never lived up to the hype surrounding the boss. there are other people talking about the disappointing Finale Raid Ny'olotha, which i like, but do see why many people felt disappointed. I Think Krucial Came back After a year of not posting WOW based videos, just to complain about the final boss and the lackluster Raid. I think an "it was all a dream" would fit with The theme of N'zoth being the manipulator behind the curtains, plus brings back a Villain to do some justice.
You immediately made me think of a Christmas carol
I feel like there's a lot of potential for a plot that's really meta with this. Like, "It was all a dream, but isn't this all fiction anyways? Are your dream realities any less real than the words put to page? The connections you've made?"
@@AegixDrakan something similar was pulled off in Rick and Morty's Season 4 Episode 6.
!SPOILER WARNING!
So in the episode Morty makes fun of Rick for not being as genius as he used to be, and convinces him to build a device that can turn back time in order to 'prove himself'.
Morty then uses the device to do all sorts of crazy stuff, as he can turn back time and cancel the repercussions.
The amazing twist comes right after Morty returns with the device after a couple of messed up events, saying he's had enough of the device, and admitting that life really is nothing without consequences.
To his surprise though, Rick answers: "Oh, but there were consequences, Morty", explaining that Morty's actions were not erased by the time travel, because he was transported to another universe instead. As a result, every time he did minor stuff like catch popcorn with his mouth over and over, he was killing thousands of Morty's from other universes.
While it's true that the foreshadowing to this twist was little to none, the twist works great in the sci-fi context of the show, and I was genuinely surprised by it.
"I've absorbed more of Game of Thrones through pop culture osmosis than I remember from some shows I actually watched."
Me with Jojo
Same! I'm pretty sure I could reconstruct the entire show from everything I've heard about it.
HD Gamer Music LOL I’m glad I didn’t, but the best thing about JoJo is that the plot is still so interesting and “bizarre” you’d still find enjoyment regardless of the spoilers. Make your whole plot interesting, not just particular parts and you’ve got a good story :-)
same thing here. and because of it, when i actually started to watch jojo, i was always like OH LAWD IT'S HAPPENING. so spoilers dont actually affect that much.
OMEGABET your profile fits your comment 😆
@@omegabet3912 I just started Jojo and still wondering when I'm gonna see Jotaro. Like geez here I am thinking I'm gonna watch Jotaro him kicking ass with Stands and here I am watch Joseph fighting some knights with light punches
"Good stories have rewatch value" I'll just brb and watch Avatar TLA again...
Hell yeah.
the more I watch it, the less I like it. Last time I did, it just felt like I was waiting to get to the good episodes, many of them had the purpose of fleshing out the world, but when you already know it, it's just filler.
Mood. Gonna rewatch that soon.
Same
that reminds me i should rewatch it
showrunners: add foreshadowing to their stories
fans: predict the ending using the foreshadowing, look forward to the ending and feel smart for figuring it out
showrunners: panic because nO wE nEeD tO sUbVeRt ExPeCtATiOnS and hastily rewrite the ending to be an unsatisfying plot twist
fans: feel cheated and lied to, on top of being unhappy with the new ending
why do people keep doing this
Happened to Pretty Little Liars too
And the thing is, even if the fans correctly guess the ending, they still don’t know for sure, so there’s still some suspense.
This reminds me of how DMing in DnD works. You have to remember that you write the plot *for* the players and if they're theorizing the plot (especially if they're right), it means they care and are invested and your goal is to make them happy so stick to the plot and don't shift it for surprise's sake
This is my theory about Lost. By the end of the first season, almost everyone talking about the show (and it was a LOT of people, because it was pretty damned interesting a concept and execution) had posited the idea that The Island was some sort of Purgatory for the characters to work out their issues from life before they could move on, or perhaps to be judged and cast to some sort of Oblivion/Hell when they failed their tests.
So the writers came out and said, very publicly, "No, no, the Island is a real place, it's all happening in the real world." Then they scrambled like made so that it only became a Purgatory after the opening of the Vault, which made even less sense, completely wrecked any chance of making the various mysteries (like the Numbers) solvable, and totally destroyed any chance of the entire series being viewed positively by virtually anyone.
@@runtergerutscht4401 This! Let people have fun figuring out the clues you laid down. If they get it wrong, they still get the fun of the, "WHAT?" or, "Man, we should have seen this coming." If they get it right, they get the satisfaction of figuring everything out, that "ha! I knew it!" moment. Both options are fun. Just don't change your story to force one of those outcomes, let people feel like they are apart of the world and are learning about it.
WHAT?! Spoilers?! in a video about Plot twists?!?! Who could've seen that coming!?!?
I've only seen half of the movies/shows mentioned. I've considered skipping this video for a second, and nah.
Was that a pun..?
What a twist!
Well now you've spoiled this video for me!
*spoilers*
the above movie mentions may contain plot twists
To paraphrase Gorge RR Martin: If you write it so the butler did it, then people see the change coming so you change it so the chambermaid did it in the last chapter... then you've just written a bad story
THIS SO MUCH. I absolutely hate it when stories do this.
@One Thou Wou da fuck you gotta write this for?
@@h1302mm FUCK. YES. Especially in mysteries. the whole fun of reading old Hardy Boys books when I was a kid was that I could solve the case right alongside them. not to mention what the bad twist can do to characterization...
Did you mean "any modern version of Sherlock Holmes as well as all Detective Animes" ?
@@drhaxx7425 A lot of stories have this issue these days! From giant fantasy space westerns, to b-grade spin-offs of the zombie apocalypse.
Me: Oh a notification! I really hope it’s the next episode of Journey To The West!
Red: Plot twist
Plot twist: The new episode of Journey to the West is never happening. *sad violin starts playing*
Journey to Half Life 3 (grrrrr)
@@RogerEverett plot twist, journey to the west was half life 3 all along
*expectation subversion
Maria Bianchi I love this comment
seeing this again makes me think of Wandavision. Like yeah, they throw a dead pietro there (as a bad twist again) but imagine Red's version. Can you imagine the amazing interplay that could happen if she had brain-washed her own LIVING brother into a part on that show? THAT would be an amazing way to end the series, with her finally realizing how she was actually hurting people, not just hearing the now-unsuppressed thoughts of strangers, but seeing his 5-year-older "I dealt with this, I understand you, but it hurts me" face and having THAT be the moment she decides to let go of her show? it would be AMAZING
That would have been cool. But i honestly prefer the idea of the people of Westview telling her what she's really doing. Her breakdown and immediate decision to release them shows that she cares for people who aren't family or friends but strangers that she swore to protect as an Avenger. If Pietro was the one to tell her that it would kind of come across as "Wanda only cares about the people who are actually close to her" and it would make her look very selfish.
@@mellemadswoestenburg1296 You could play it off as "Pietro" being the moral side of Wanda manifesting. Like after Vision points out to her that the people of Westview are being hurt of her brainwashing and Wanda being in denial, that her consciousness creates Pietro to help her snap out it. So it's still her realizing that she hurt everyone in Westview.
You could even have stuff like Pietro having some sort of sitcom rivalry with Agnes as Wanda's consciousness could've realized that Agatha is the one pulling some string behind the scenes. You could even have him trying to be a buddy to Vision to help him guide towards the truth and have Pietro tag along on Visions investigations so that Wanda's consciousness could see what she is doing. But it's played off like the irresponsible brother trying to be a friend to the uptight husband you see in sitcoms and maybe give a bit of a red herring that Pietro is trying to stop Vision instead of helping him.
But they undo all of the “I care about people” stuff in DSMoM. She kills and destroys whole worlds, and only when her children are scared of her does she stop. She almost unleashes THE head demon for her family. They could have done so much more with her and QS as foils. QS sides with Tony which causes the rift, maybe Wanda is still pissed at Tony and part of her begins to hate QS too. To repair his relationship, maybe he switched sides, or maybe Wanda controls his brain a little, show the beginnings of her madness. He wants to help his sister, “sorry Tony, but I can’t lose her” something like that.
As we go into Infinity war, he’s helping Cap and we see him and Wanda have drifted. She’s focused on Vision and He’s now angry that she went to such lengths just to abandon her for a robot. He steels himself and he slowly migrated into the “save Bucky” gang. We see them fighting an evil threat and QS taking some sort of lead role. He being a hero while his sister is still clinging to ideas of family but not living up to them, maybe in the Wanda and Vision scene, Vision asks “why don’t you help your brother.” After Wanda shows him pics and looks sad about family. And Wanda can’t answer, or maybe she does but says, “he’s changed” and then vision says, “and you haven’t” Wanda says nothing because they get attacked and go help the Rest of the Avengers.
As they all meet in Wakanda, we see QS and Wanda have an awkward scene and lose some of the sibling pettiness that has been showed. QS has been working through his grief and Wanda has been stewing in it, maybe Thanos (in this version super evil) points it out and says, something to the effect of, “more death in your family pot” something - I’m bad at dialogue. Wanda is gutted at visions lost and goes berserk having almost destroyed Thanos and some other avengers in the process.
QS having Dealt with his sister before must grab her and run with her away from other people.
She lashes her blind rage out at him, and he must run before he dies. As Thor shows up, and Thanos goes to Snap, QS is a second to late. We the audience realize that maybe he could have stopped it if he wasn’t dealing with Wanda. As he goes back to the spot her left her, we realize she’s gone. He falls to his knees, curtain falls.
5 years past, QS has been sad but fighting as he’s always done. (in this version we have an actually fleshed out Natasha) he’s been healing and fighting with the Remaining save Bucky squad.
The day is saved but Nat dies tragically. QS was using her a a surrogate big sister. He’s damaged, but determined to reunite with his sister, but she returns mad, she destroys so much, she then leaves.
We now have Kinda Evil Wanda, someone to mourn Nat and a sad boy.
Keep everything but the Enternals and rewriting WandaVision to have QS in the Show.
Now we can set up a new gen of heros and have Wanda as an overarching big bad.
We now on earth have:
She Hulk(Daredevil still sad boy)
Bucky
Falcon turn Eagle(because America)
Photon
Ant-Man
Daredevil and the New York Squad
BP
And QS
We give the old guard Bucky and Falcon their own thing and Make them gay because duh. Give Ant Man less screen time and give it to his better written daughter. Give Shuri and QS a team up, both grieving for/with their siblings and their people. Now he’s a big brother, she helps him heal. Photon working with Sword goes to NYC and she teams up with the NYC squad, all now better written and better. She Hulk gets her own thing and in the end we have a new avengers team:
Eagle
Bucky
Photon
QS
BP
SH
And like one person from the NYC gang maybe Matt but I’m leaning towards JJ because I love jaded Pyshics. The rest are protecting New York and dating She Hulk.
They have like 2 movies but In the end Wanda - who had been a big bad. Comes and kills many of them SH quits going on active missions when DD dies and steps into to protect his home. ANT MAN ALMOST Dies which is not that sad but I put it in caps anyway. JJ leaves. Photon dies, BP protects her kingdom and Eagle and Bucky go back to protecting the world from Hydra.
QS is the last of the earth people actively being an avenger, the second movie closes with him sad with no more Shuri and a looming threat. And a mysterious not saying “go find Peter Parker”
We also have
Space heros like
Thor
The Guardians
Enternals(keep them just get a better writer)
Cap Marvel
(Give them all movies and keep them in space fighting a big bad, maybe have Thor heal some more and rewrite his love story to make his last 3 movies more cohesive with a proper send off, and send Love to earth to fight with the young kids ^see next^)
And we have new Up and Coming hero’s like
Unremebered Spidey
Ms. Marvel
Squirrel Girl(because we need that)
America
Stature
Maybe iron heart
Young Hawkeye
And Maybe the Twins.
(TV shows for most - can definitely condense SG into MS. marvel and if written well enough they could totally do a 12-15 episode 5 man band of SG, MM, America, IH, and YH. Have Stature develop with her dad, and give up on Wiccan until the end of Wanda’s/QS arc. Then give them a movie when the come together and help a now older spider man - who they all remember some how and have to help - QS as leader)
We end with QS not leading the superheros and going to therapy after killing his sister.
And we have back Tom Holland, yay! Also I think it’s the most fitting to have a team full of women to help him realize his baggage. We end with him dedicating his life to helping raise the twins and him finally having the family he’s been searching for.
We also fighters of the dark shadows that lurk in the background:
Fury
MK
Blade
And those characters from Werewolf at Night.
(Give them like TV shows and call it s day, nothing too deep with them maybe have Fury be the one to write the note after he becomes a watcher maybe follow the comic format and the reason that Eagle and Bucky aren’t fighting anymore is because they are rebuilding shield.
Multi-verse crap:
DS
Loki
(I feel like mix DS and Loki, I want to see that duo so badly, have themes of change and growth for the man children. Maybe have them show up in the last battles of both the Enternals/space guys and The New Kids - have them collide some how, idk maybe having Wanda resurrect the Enternal to grant her wish of her children.
Something like that.
Idk, I just want more QS
But would she have made the show if she hadn't lost BOTH her husband and brother?
Though the age gap could’ve led to interesting conflict where they’re out of touch and she feels as if she’s lost her brother since he’s so different than she remembers, leading her to make the “right” Pietro
Blue: "I was doing a bit!"
Red: "Take Lord Blue outside. Audience, bring me my sword."
Shad: "Did someone says SWORD?"
"I've absorbed more of Game of Thrones through pop culture osmosis than I remember from some shows I actually watched." sums up my knowledge about that series, along with that annoying browser game ad that was everywhere.
I got to your comment exactly as Red said that. Witchcraft!
The browser game is still everywhere.
Ahhh geode
My new phone came with a GoT game downloaded. It will not let me uninstall it.
@@tsucube4377 Agreement
I'm still waiting for ''Trope Talk: Plot Armor''. Is it only me or is there anyone with the same mindset/hope?
Timon you know I can just nearly remember reading a comic somewhere where one of the characters have an ability call plot armor that literally works as plot armor until one of the villains on it find a way to disable all abilities. well then you can Probally guess what happens next.
Your profile picture makes me sad 😔
Good example would be Ayra in the battle of winter fell... how many times was a roof gonna fall on her..
Timon is that a trope or is that just an example of a writing pitfall? usually it’s just bad writing, and if it isn’t it’s probably the prophecy trope, which she already covered
Tommy hasn’t seen star wars yet ehh I’d say it’s a trope at this point. Characters that can’t die. If they did the entire story would end. Ilbasiclly with out these characters the story has no meaning
A good plot twist shouldn't leave you thinking "I didn't see that coming" they should leave you thinking "I SHOULD'VE seen that coming" because it will make the little details make sense when you finally find out what's actually going on
!!! Yes! Ned Stark’s death in GoT season one is actually a great example. If you don’t know what happens when you first watch it, he dies and you’re like “well, yeah, of course he died - So why the HELL did I think he’d survive?” It’s surprising at first but obvious in retrospect
That is a great way to summarize! You’re left reevaluating your own assumptions. Not questioning the writers sanity.
"Do not be afraid of the obvious." - Philip Pullman.
I think writers should heed this advice more often.
P.S. Thanks for another awesome Trope Talk, Red.
Cure Starlight I don’t. I think they should heed the nuance of how anything done poorly is poor. Some plot twists are fantastic. Some are a mess and sometimes I know something it going to happen and the writer makes me hope it will or won’t and sometimes they make me think okay whatever yawn.
That's the way it is with good stories. Your sure you heard them before.
Plot twists can be good, but not if youruin everything with it. Thats why jon lnding in the north, tyrion becoming the kings hand and sansa becoming queen of the north. They ruined jons a bit by making him a moron, and making him killing dany underwhelming, but him not wanting to be a king and going in retirement was build up. Him being in the north was enjoyable, he should have been going there on his own volution. Tyrion and sansa thankfully never got the forced twist treatment.
@@momsaid I think the point is more that obvious isn't inherently bad. So basically the same as what you said.
I prefer an obvious but well-foreshadowed plot twist over a "Hans is the bad guy now" senseless twist any day
Characters: Oh no
Villain: Oh no
Outline: Oh no
Plot twist: *_Oh Yeah_*
Koolaid man: Oh Y- y- y- no...
M. Night: WHAT A TWIST!!!
What a twit! 😀 Sorry. i was thinking of Robot Chicken. 🙂
That "Read more" button is the real plot twist here.
"Oh, a decent but predictable plot line was replaced by a random, shitty one. What a twist!"
That's how I felt after season 1, episode 22 of Code Geass and seeing Lelouch accidently use the Geass on Princess Euphemia. "Oh; so instead of letting Euphemia's plan go into action and fall apart, you're instead going to have her die from a contrivance? Cool twist (sarcasm)."
Hitchcock's bomb goes off not with a bang, but with a whimper.
@@lykander9906 Yeah, or it just doesn't go off at all.
Matthew St. Cyr As much as I hate that part of code geass, it WAS foreshadowed with both the previous Mao arc, showing that a Geass can and will grow out of its users control, and Lelouch’s geass seemingly acting up earlier in the episode. Contrived, yes, but it didn’t come out of nowhere
@@theonegoldengryphon Foreshadowing does not justify a twist; it only hints at it. There were far better ways to make his geass activate on its own with tragic consequences.
A good plot twist is when it makes the audience go "oh, that makes sense. That's why this thing happened, or that's why they act like that!" Some examples are:
- Over The Garden Wall, where it is revealed in the final episode how Wirt and Greg ended up in the Unknown, and how the Unknown is not connected to the real world. We don't see it coming exactly, but it's also not a random twist thrown in to shock the audience. It explains why their outfits are so strange (because they were dressed up for Halloween), it explains why these two are the only characters who speak in a modern slang (except for Beatrice also), and it explains their whole reaction to the scenario.
- Almost any of Agatha Christie's stories have a seemingly unexpected plot twist, but as the criminal's actions and motivations are explained, we realized that it is not out of the blue. When we re-read the story, we are able to catch glimpses of the criminal's suspicious behaviour throughout the story.
- Toy Story 3 where the pink bear, whatever his name was, turns out to be the villain. His story almost mirrors that of Woody's and Jess's, basically being forgotten by an owner. And since this fear is talked about before, the plot twist doesn't seem hard to believe.
- Gravity Falls where Stan is revealed to have a brother who he had been working hard to get back. Stan, generally portrayed as a hilarious and morally grey character, had already shown signs of holding a secret from the very beginning. It also puts into place some other incidents such as when he was heartbroken over the damage of a figurine that looked like him, because it reminded him of his twin brother. But at the same time, we get suspicions of the author of the journal being Fiddleford McGucket or even Stan himself.
I’d also go with volo from weirdly enough Pokémon. The entire game I was frustrated with the character because he didn’t make sense to me. Then he gets revealed and my thought wasn’t “huh?” or “ahha, I knew it” it was “oh, that’s why he had a different personality in every interaction”.
Something darkly funny about forgetting the name of a villian with abandonment issues... Anyway his name is Lotso.
Remember all fledgling writers. Shock over substance never ever works in any writing.
skinnypennis_ Unless you’re writing about electricity
Show fans: "The ending destoryed the enjoyment of the entire series." 😡
Book fans: "At least, y'all GOT an ending." 😒
Puns.
😂 for real though
Not gonna lie, I'm in the same boat of GoT as Red here, but every GoT fan I've seen since then, when it rarely is brought up these days, is pure disdain for not only the last season, but the entire series consequently. I genuinely think that the show fans would've been sad if they got Firefly'd, but as it is the feeling seems to be "the ending was so bad it invalidated the journey" and that in turn makes it feel like the seven and a half seasons they spent giving a shit were outright wasted time. Usually "anything crap can be ignored, a bad ending beats none" works out, but I think it really was so supremely unsatisfying as to have been better if the series was open-ended.
@@JacklynBurn Man... Firefly... still too soon. (sniffle)
I'd rather not have an ending than have a shit one, cause if you dont have an ending, than you can imagine what happened to everyone, but if you have a shit ending, you just have to live with it being shit
"The twist contradicts canon..."
I'm looking at you, Fantastic Beasts 2!
Ikr
I watched it but my brain purged a lot of things out of my memory. What was contradicted there?
FB contradicts Harry potter canon but does it contradict it's own canon? I honestly never saw it as being in the same universe as Harry potter not as a prequel or anything else. Just curious I'm not a serious fan so I don't know.
@@AlrycaAeveaHexendias
SPOILER WARNING
There's a twist that the obscurist guy (can't remember his name off the top of my head; he's got a bowl cut?) is actually a Dumbledore which could happen but if they try to say he's Dumbledore's bro that doesn't make sense because we know Albus' family members from detailed descriptions in the 7th original book.
@@nonameless2 I feel like people forget how families work. Maybe I'm the one missing something here, but couldn't that just mean he's a cousin?
I've heard plot twists described as "when all the little things that didn't add up suddenly do". My personal favorite example is in Legend of the Guardians, with the traitor (won't spoil it). It was amazing because we figured it out at the same time as Soren. I usually spot things coming at least one scene before it's revealed, so it was nice to get it at the same time as the MC.
Having read and loved the books, I actively hate that movie. But even I have to admit, they did the twist well. Technically that twist doesn’t execute until several books after the ones the movie covers, giving a lot more time for buildup of this terrifying monster with a metal beak, but they did well with what they had.
@@Red-in-Greenwell, no surprise zack snyder directing style made the whole movie prototype ant man and wasp with kang quantumania movie tonewise, dead serious kang in a crime sitcom superhero movie world going flash gordon style of quantum realm and star wars type of multiverse from my point of view the same way zack directed his superman trilogy, watchmen and especially 300 the most.
Wait, game of thrones had a literal “rocks fall, everyone dies” dnd trope scene?
Yes, I just caught that, I never thought of it that way, thank you
Only two characters die from the rocks though, the Lannister twins.
And it does fit, to be honest.
Arrogant Queen who hated being powerless believes her Castle will protect her, dies in said Castle, powerless and begging for life.
A good Knight who was hated by the rest of the world and was morally conflicted by the vows and oaths he took dies freed from any vows and ends his life comforting his family
And their dad's notoriety began by burying enemy families to death. Be was obsessed with legacy and family, and his legacy ends with his own family buried to death.
It kiiiinda fits metaphorically, but i feel like that's the least important part of storywriting
@@serafinschaller1688 You can make most things fit metaphorically if you try hard enough, so you're right.
Jaime and Brienne's little fling was actually a two (k)night stand
I understood that reference!
*shame bell meme here*
"J'aime" ton comment. XD
*Ear rape version of shame bell meme here*
I love this.
Truly the best plotwist devised in media is...
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!
When everyone is expecting the Spanish Inquisition is the true plot twist
Heck yeah man!
"Shapes" and "Joshua" are better
Especially because it still works and is funny even if you know it's coming.
I stan
I can understand both sides of the spoiler argument. There are times when a spoiler made the movie disappointing, or made it more fun.
What really grinds my gears is when I get a spoiler, but no one tells me. Let me spoil Megamind for you.
The plot basically is subversive Superman tropes. 2 planets dying, 2 babies arrive on earth, one privileged, the other raised in literal prison. Privileged becomes a superhero, prison baby a villain, Megamind. Megamind then kills the hero in the first 20 mins, gets depressed and makes a replacement. Towards the end of the second act, maybe beginning of the third act, it is revealed that the hero faked his death to avoid responsibility and become a terrible musician. Villain realizes that he could be a hero if he wants to, and destiny doesn't really contain him like he believed, saves the day, happily ever after
HOWEVER. Many of the trailers I saw before going to see Megamind started with the idea, "What happens when the hero decides to hang up his cape?" Followed by a clip of the hero in a bathrobe, unshaven, unkept, probably unwashed, saying, "I-I'm done." And it wasn't until 20 mins in that I realized, oh no, that was the plot twist.
I felt so robbed. It's one thing to ruin the shock by spoiling something, intentional or otherwise. At least you know going in what you know that you shouldn't. But when you're sitting there for half an hour waiting for the hero to announce his retirement, and realizing that's not how it's going to play out, it's incredibly frustrating, deflating, and destabilizing.
I remember back when Stargate SG-1 was being produced on the Sci-Fi Channel... the upcoming episode trailers spoiled things ALL THE FREAKING TIME. One episode, the narrator for the trailer even outright said something like "You won't believe what happens", and then less than a second later, the trailer shows you. So most of the plot twists the writers put out ended up hitting like your experience with Megamind.
There's a reason that in the 200th episode, the characters are discussing plot twists because of the premise of the episode, and General O'Neill has just showed up on-base after he'd been reassigned to the Pentagon over a season ago because Richard Dean Anderson had left the show to spend more time with his family, and Carter says, "Are you kidding? It'll be spoiled in the trailer." And yes, it *was* spoiled in the trailer for that episode, her line included.
Twilight Sparkle getting wings at the end of season 3 was plastered all over the hub channel before the episode even debuted.
I remember seeing that. It was different for me. I only saw trailers with clips from the first twenty minutes, so seeing "Metro-Man's" skeleton was a major WTF moment for me.
I'm so happy I watched Megamind blind just based on all the positive talk about it
That's a pretty big fuck-up alright.
It's not even 'we're not confident we could sell the untwisted version of this' like 'T2-arnie is the good guy now'-promotion-panic.
The 'untwisted' version is substantial, the story sold by that marketing is not the issue the protagonist actually faces.
Not only did they sell a different movie by revealing that twist.
They sold an inferior movie by hiding it was a twist.
Iron man dies is the new dumbledore dies
Also the quicksilver plot you made sounded amazing!
I don't think Tony's death was a twist, I mean it was the opposite of that, since everybody saw it coming and closed his arc in the best way possible.
And long before Dumbledore dies there was Darth Vader is Luke's father
@@emmae2520 Dumbledore and Iron Man deaths are not plot twists though, Darth Vader revelation is. We already knew Dumbledore would die because he was sick, the plot twist was Snape murdering him and going with Voldemort. And self sacrifice was the ending of Tonys arc, so anyone who analized his character could see that coming.
@@emmae2520, even though the name "Darth Vader" memes "dark father" in German
@@Who-vd3iv not to mention Tony's self sacrifice was foreshadowed through all 3 Ironman movies.
"I've absorbed more of 'Game of Thrones' through pop culture osmosis than I remember from some shows I actually watched."
Laughed to find I'm not the only one! To the point where, although I didn't care how it ended, I _did_ care whether it ended well or badly, and could tell the difference.
hey, that's three of us then! IT STILL PISSES ME OFF, THOUGH!
Epi Endless
That's what happens when pundits and politicians take an interest.
This`s the same with me, but scratch out GoT w/ VLD.
Everyone and their fucking mother went batshit after the hellfire that was Season 8, and it was practically impossible to NOT know what went down. I know every major plot point in VLD, and I`ve only seen Seasons 1 & 2. Hell, I didn`t even need to WATCH S 1-2, cause everyone had already gushed over it (VLD S 1&2 are considered the best Seasons of the series and have the most memorable moments by far) and how amazing it was compared to everything else.
@@chicnuggs8238 By VLD, do you mean Voltron: Legendary Defender?
And if so, why use the acronym?
@@joshlegacy1101 Yes I do mean Voltron: Legendary Defender. And I used the acronym cause I was too lazy to type that shit out every time I mentioned it.
Man... now I'm sad. After hearing Reds idea on how endgame could've happened I wish it happened that way.
Right?! Now I want to see Red's MCU post-Age of Ultron.
Yeah I would pay good money to see that. Along the lines of what was said, do you think that the MCU could have possible gone this route if they had the rights for QS?
Maybe if it weren't for those goddamn copyright issues at the time. Maybe they had no choice but to kill Quicksilver because they knew Fox planned to milk their version and they didn't want to confuse casual moviegoers.
A really big example of a twist that ruins the story for me. Detorit become human. It's a story with a lot of problems but the twist where Alice turns out to be a droid not only ruins that particular relationship with her caretaker. Can not remember their name for the life of me. But it also makes a lot of earlier details really weird.
not remembering kara's name when she's literally one of the 3 main playable characters is SO valid, connor and hank are like the only characters
@@clawcakes who the fuck is Hank?
@@ananas_anna see you get it
@@ananas_anna plz be joking cause man don’t disrespect Hank dawg. Him and Conner were the only good plot through and through. Only memorable characters.
I agree that Alice being a robot twist pissed me off. It was only made so that they could put her into that robot concentration camp. Besides that there was no reason for her to be a robot.
I would have liked your version of Age of Ultron more.
Indeed.
Certainly.
I am not a huge fan of superhero movies and I would love to see that movie
Sigh me down for this vote
Yeah, it would have been great. Sadly though, Marvel didn't own the rights to the cinematic version of Quicksilver at the time, they were only allowed to use him for one movie.
Add onto the fact that the infamous Ultimates version of Wanda and Pietro (where they're having a good old Lannister-style twincest affair) has become common knowledge, coupled with Whedon's love of axing one half of a couple, and the fact that Marvel is owned by Disney (who probably flipped their shit when they saw the deleted scene which implies that said twincest may be canon to the MCU, to the point that they may have made Pietro's death a MANDATE), which practically demands one "emotional" character death per movie, and you can see that poor Pietro (and his storyline potiential) never stood a chance.
The Vulture twist was so damn good. I still remember seeing that in the theatre and just being "oh no!"
I initially thought he kidnapped Liz. Then he said he was her father. My reaction was this:
“Oh. That’s actually worse.”
I had known a little bit of Homecoming’s events leading up to it through media coverage, but nothing about the Vulture twist. One of the few times the internet was kind to me, which meant that when I got to that point, it was just a feeling of “ah, meeting the parents, this should be fuuuUUUUCKING GOD OH NO”
"Good Ole Spider-man"
Vulture was very well done. That fucking scene with the traffic light as well showing that he's realised that Peter is Spidey was really cool to notice as well. A nice little visual flair
Which is why I personally feel like things like that shouldn't be spoiled, let people have that first experience of shock, they can always have the repeated watching experience, but never the 1st watching.
Overall moral: It's okay for a plot to follow a predictable route, as long as the story still makes sense.
Also, IT’S OKAY IF FANS FIGURE IT OUT, THAT MEANS YOU’RE EITHER DOING GOOD, REALISTIC CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT OR YOU FORESHADOWED WELL, just don’t expect everyone to go “whoa, WHAT?” and instead expect “I KNEW IT!!!”
@@mythandmayhem1134 I really feel the current thought process is based off internet people going, "OMG so predictable, boring, I saw that coming from a mile away". So creators have to foreshadow without foreshadowing, so people can be surprised and no one can legitimately claim, "I saw that coming!" because the creator intentionally brought it from left field with no hints.
@@PokeMultiverse
I mean I get that, but I would prefer a plot twist I read about months ago on the internet that makes sense than one that makes me go “wut”. Like “Virgil was a dark side” or “Dabi is Touya Todoroki”. Neither of those were shocking, the fan bases were honestly treating both as fanon, but the creators weren’t treating the viewers like the only purpose was to be bamboozled, if that makes sense?
@@mythandmayhem1134 It's the bomb scenario that Red brought up, but in a good way. You see the wires in a place wires shouldn't be, you follow them past barely visible cylinders that, with minimal light, appear red. And then at the end, you see the mountain dynamite prepared to explode. At which point, the difference between fanon and canon comes down to whether or not the fuse was lit the whole time. Is the fuse unlit, meaning it truly is fanon and the wrong trail was followed? Or does it turn out to be canon, where the surprise comes from the fact that the bomb DID go off and now reframes everything with such an appearance. Which, ironically, was Dabi's plan all along, and the purpose of a plot twist. To either steer the plot in a new direction or reveal something about that plot that forces you to re-examine it.
@@justinalicea1590
I think another way to describe it is you put the bomb in the scene, but it was hidden. You weren’t really expecting the audience to see it. Then they did. Now instead of the rewatch value of seeing the bomb for the first time, the audience is working together to figure out how and when the bomb will go off and what will happen when it does.
I went through a similar experience with Star Wars: since it’s such a pop culture hallmark, I knew the two big twists before watching the movies. The sibling twist fell flat for me as a result (especially given how ANH and ESB was baiting a romance between them), but the parent twist was still great.
The suspense leading up to the parent reveal and the catharsis that came after meant it was still a great experience (especially since it doesn’t break any logic within the films)…which makes it a great twist imo (surely shocking for people who didn’t know, but still satisfying and logical for those watching later)
15:13 -- "When your plot twist looks directly into the camera and cheekily says, 'Ya didn't see that comin’?’ Please just… stop; and maybe fire your writers."
Yes, I agree. That has gotta be one of the cringiest "plot twists" I've ever seen.
What Red failed to acknowledge there was how it was more of a dark joke ending the spat between Clint and Quicksilver (can’t remember his real name) as in his opening scene, he hits Clint and sarcastically says “What, you didn’t see that coming?”
Much later in the film, Clint shoots a bullet through the glass floor and Quicksilver falls to the level below where Clint retorts back the same statement. My point in all this is that Red was biased while saying this and didn’t rewatch the movie to make sure she had her facts straight (she did a similar thing with time travel in Terminator 2)
@@aionicthunder and let's not forget the real reason they killed him... Copyrights.
@@aionicthunder Eh, that doesn’t make up for the other stuff she talked about though.
@@lyhenglim6969 it does not, but it is always stupid to not mention the good bits of the thing you hate. Only talking about the worst bits of something (doing a leafy I call it.) it's is either a sign of weakness, being a jerk, forgetfulness, or a hidden bias you might not even have known of. In this case it's one of the last two.
@@gillbray2889 Hm that’s fair. I was just trying to say that while Aionic Thunder made a valid point, the twist was still negatively affected by the other things she mentioned. Though I do think her “wink at the audience” point still stands. In universe it’s cuz of the in-joke but to the audience it could so easily be interpreted as a way for the writers to talk to the audience that the context of the in-joke just doesn’t make it any better.
Man, now I'm thinking of a fight between Quicksilver and Wanda where Wanda gets her traumatizing touch (TM) in, but it doesn't work because fighting his sister and last living family member IS his worst nightmare
Dang, that would be so sad
I think of spoilers like announcing a pregnancy. Sure, if someone went and told everyone before you got the chance it wouldn't make the baby less loved or special, but it was _your_ baby, it was _your_ moment to share and they took that from you. There's a reason people get pissed.
You only get to watch something for the first time once.
@GippyHappy Yeah, but in your scenario, the only people who would be upset would be the couple/mother. In every where else, the fans are the one that get pissed because they think the thing would like is ruined.
Yes, you can only experience something for the first time once. But unless that “something” was good, you’d probably wouldn’t want to experience it again.
@@thevideo-beast122 I am so confused by your reply. The whole point of my analogy is that it's not that spoiling something ruins the thing itself but rather that it removes the unique experience of learning/doing it the first time. Yes the roles are not exactly the same in this scenario but analogies don't exist to be 1:1 perfect comparisons.
I feel like you entirely missed the point of what I said.
I don't care if the move is bad or good, I want to experience it uniquely on my own and make my own judgement from there. Knowing things ahead of time will shape your view whether you want it to or not.
Hell I had the experience of the (3rd?) shrek ruined for me because I kept expecting the characters to suddenly say "Now on DVD and blu-ray" like they did in the commercials and it was all I could think about the entire time. (just to be clear, I was a child at the time)
Anyway, all this is to say it's really easy to not spoil things for other people, and just because you may not be bothered by it doesn't mean you should impose that upon other people who are. It's just common courtesy.
@@GippyHappy I’m sorry and I get what you mean. I know the courtesy of keeping my mouth shut when a) somebody who doesn’t want to be spoiled, or b) somebody want me to keep a secret. People who don’t do that are douches.
The only thing I can’t agree on is the “Experience>the product” argument. From that logic, you could be watching poop-swimming and you wouldn’t get upset because you wasn’t aware of it before hand. To me, it doesn’t when, where, or how I see something, just rather or not how much I’m interested into it. And if I watch/would watch something that annoy, bored, or disgust me, my “experience” would be completely ruined.
@@thevideo-beast122 WHAT is poop swimming??
@@GippyHappy Its uh... when you swimming in... 💩
“Oh and make sure to call him “Bran the Broken” because I bet the disabled members of the audience weren’t expecting to feel terrible today” 🤣🤣🤣🤣
💀💀💀 had me rolling
In one of the earlier Harry Potter movies, Dumbledore stands directly in front of a cabinet while discussing about how he knows he incredible close to the solution to his problem(Voldemort) and he's trying to figure it out.
Directly behind him, in the cabinet, a silver symbol is there. First time I watched I didn't even notice it, but shortly after I'd finished reading the whole book series my family decided to watch all the movies- the silver symbol is the Deathly Hallows, and it was foreshadowing it ahead of time. Even the second time around, I was quite shocked and noticed several small details across the series like that.
As far as HP goes, Snape's entire arc's payoff was phenomenal
@Greg Elchert If you go to the Harry Potter studios, there are a lot of deathly hallows symbols sneakily in the background of the sets, especially in Dumbledore's office.
I don't think it's a stretch that J.K. Rowling could say "hey, this symbol will be really important later, so it would be cool if we could work it in now"
me on first viewing: "hmm, okay, interesting"
me on second viewing: "SHOCK BAIT HOO HA HA!"
Freakin' Finding Nemo reference how could you
Welcome, brother Shock Bait.
SHOCK BAIT! OOH HA HA!
From henceforth, you shall be called......Shockbait
Enough with the shock bait
SHOCK BAIT HOO- ha- skadoo...
Red: Let's talk about bad plot twists.
Disney: It wasn't me I swear
Hans Smirking in His Kingdom.........
Megara nervously waving
Flynn Rider Hiding the knife(haircut!)
Bellweather nervously laughing
Steven Universe: Hey, don't look at me! I'm nothing like Game of Thrones.
Everyone: Except for the fact that you both DIDN'T STICK THE LANDING.
@@swanandab2484 Sorry but i did not expect the twist from Hans, Flynn/Eugene, and Bellweather. How were they predictable?
@@swanandab2484 what’s wrong with Heracles and Tangled?
@@marshmallowallen5677 Nothing, it was just a surprising moment.
What's really weird about 'Terminator 2' is that the twist was actually spoiled in the trailers!
They just couldn't help but tell everyone that Arnie was gonna be the good guy.
So watching those first few scenes in the theatre was slightly surreal. It was like "the director is clearly trying to make us believe Arnie is still the bad guy, but we all know he isn't, this is weird".
Especially the Terminator films seem to be plagued by this problem. Imagine being a movie director who tries his darndest to build up to a good twist and the marketing people are like "Soo, we will put that in the trailer you guys. Cool? Cool."
@@wjzav1971 Note to self, don't complete effects for scenes you don't want in the trailers
Oddly enough, this is why I especially enjoy watching reaction vids from Zoomers towards T2, because they usually DON'T know it's coming. It's really fun seeing people being surprised by the reveal.
Disappointed Blue didn't open by just yelling M. Night Shamallama
Thank you for making me actually audibly laugh today. I needed that.
sama
“Pop culture osmosis” is probably the only reason me, a noted movie abstainer, actually knows a basic plot to movies.
mood
I didn't watch a single marvel movie before endgame and it was awesome and made sense.
Shoutouts to essay videos
Pop culture osmosis is a term I need to remember
I make my friends irrationally angry by referencing movies I’ve never seen. It’s a great feeling :)
A FELLOW MOVE ABSTAINER! WE EXIST!!
"Pretty sure they don't even mention him in Civil War"
They don't. Never watched Age of Ultron and genuinely didn't even know Quicksilver was in any of the Avengers movies.
I watched age of ultron and didn’t know it either.
Knew Wanda had a brother, but basically forgot all about him.
And I watched the movie thrice.
He never gets mentioned by name, but Hawkeye refers to him as the reason he sides with Cap and rescues Wanda. "Besides; (glances at Wanda) I owe a debt".
@@matthewmuir8884
Still... Pietro deserved better than half a movie. I am now quite sad we didn't get to see Red's alternate story for him.
Except for the bit where Pietro sides with Tony in Civil War. I have a _lot_ of trouble believing he'd be that stupid.
@@f.i.r.e.5119 True; I just wanted to point out that the Russo Brothers did salvage things somewhat by using him as Hawkeye's motivation.
Of course, all this is ignoring the fact that Marvel probably wasn't allowed to use Quicksilver for more than one film; the deal with Fox at the time seems to have been, "You get Scarlet Witch, we keep Quicksilver".
@@matthewmuir8884
*remorseful sigh*
And now we're getting shoehorned-in X-men after the drawn-out copyright struggle.
Because after aliens, Professor Hulk, and Wakanda's outreach programs, Mutants will _totally_ face scrutiny for how normal they all are by comparison.
Another thing that makes an *obvious* plot Twist incredible good without having to come out of complete left field is how the characters *in-Series* react to the twist. A good example of this, I think, comes from Attack On Titans with the reveal of just *who* is the Armored and Colossal Titans were. The hints were there ever since the reveal of The Female Titans, our main characters suspected the the truth, but the disturbingly casual way it comes out in the series by the Armored Titan and the sheer *betrayal* the main character feel about the confirmation makes the twist an absolute gut-punch of the best kind and it changes the story for the better, and in the end it all advances the series to take new, interesting and logical paths and starts the seed of the exploration of the world outside The Walls in fully.
I stopped watching Attack on Titan after episode 12 or 13, the one where Eren first uses his Titan form to defend against an attack by carrying a rock or something idk it was many years ago.
@@JaelinBezel It gets better, S1 was... *ehhhhhh*
Just my opinion, though
And learning about Marley in Season 3 was also a great twist.
All the clues were been laid through out the story, allowing us to speculate and form our own theories.
Which turned out to be right. But at the same time subverts expectations by giving us more info and expanding on our understanding of what we suspected
AoT season one was good but a little rough around the edges. Season two was better, season 3 was even better, and season 4 was even better.
Unfortunately, having read the manga, I know that the ending is going to be shit unless they do some major reworking when adapting it into the anime. Some people think the final arc was bad, but I disagree. It did have some writing and pacing issues, and wasn't quite as strong as what came before, but overall I still think it was pretty good, and was on track for a perfectly satisfactory conclusion.
But the last three chapters...Jesus fucking Christ, what the hell happened? For years I'd been in awe of AOT, and defended pretty much every single decision Isayama had made. But when 137 dropped I was just utterly dumbfounded by the nonsense I was reading. And it only went downhill from there, as 138 managed to be even worse, and 139 was by far one of the worst things I've ever read. Many comparisons were drawn between AoT's ending and Game of Throne's, and while I can't say for certain since I haven't seen Game of Thrones, it sounds like the comparisons are apt in terms of how badly they butcher the story.
When you said AoT I fully thought you would say the reveal of Eren still being alive, it was obvious sure, but after spending 3 episodes with Mikasa as the main character and learning why she cares about Eren so much it's really beautiful and touching to see her be so relieved that he's still alive
Good writers don't try to "beat" their audience's expectations, they try to write good
GoT writers: "I'mma pretend I didn't hear that"
Sadly, that 'outsmart your audience' kind of mentality is what many bad writers think is good writing.
I'll do you one better: good writers don't try to "entertain" their either real or perceived audiences, they try to write cohesive stories that they themselves would've enjoyed and see who'll stick with their vision and style of storytelling.
Love how GoT is already completely irrelevant. Like, that ending was so bad we collectively decided to forget about the show. The Arctic Ice Cap has barely just started disappearing completely in the summer!
If anyone's reading this and agreeing wholeheartedly I implore you to rewatch Dany's character arc! The ending didn't come out of nowhere, and was something I and many others called a few episodes in advance
Or just read the books, if the next one ever comes out
@@katsenpai6957 yeah, a few episodes which undid like seasons of character development, season 6 already showed flaws while deviating from the books but season 8 was the culmination of D&Ds declining investment in the series and lack of overall care.
Reverse supernatural
@@katsenpai6957 Dany's arc was hinted at but the it was handled poorly. Up until that point it felt like she was actively fighting insanity and you could argue that everybody she killed up to that point deserved to die. I think the show just needed a couple more seasons (something HBO wanted but the writers insisted they could wrap everything up in 6 episodes) to really show her falling deeper into madness to prevent it feeling so abrupt to most the audience. To me, Mad Queen Dany was believable but everything else I wouldn't buy if the show had 10 more seasons
5:45 Or even better, just have an ompitent narrator announce: "one of these people will be dead by the end". Now you're in suspense and wondering who, how, and why.
For bonus points, have the narrator comment on the revelation, breaking the fourth wall for funsies
That is exactly what the Spider-Man comics did with Gwen Stacy's death. It was even on the cover of the comic "one of Spider-Man's loved ones will die"
Plot twist: The narrator died.
Bet you didn't see that one coming?
@@ellie8272 Comics of old pulled that one way to often. The first Sentinel-Storyline endet with an issue for which it was announced that "A character will die". I mean, it was a three issue old character, who was basically the original villain of this arc, but sure. Let's advertise with that.
My point: I think when it came to Gwen Stacy people probably already expected a cop out and did not believe it.
I've seen this been done but just by having the story not be in chronological order, e.g the story, chapter, arc, episode or whatever starts with the news that one of the characters of a team we care about has died. But before we find out who it is, the story goes back to the beginning and we watch the mission from the start and we're kept in suspense to see who dies.
A good retroactive twist in my opinion is the reveal from Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (specifically movie version) that Mad Eye Moody was played by an imposter since the beginning of the year. It is a good and shocking reveal, especially if you've never read the books before, and when rewatching the movie, you can notice a ton of big and small hints. Snape complains about missing ingredients for Polyjuice-Potion while Moody is often seen drinking from a bottle with unknown content, the chest with seven locks that one can hear human sounding screams from, him arriving on a dark and rainy night, framing him in as much darkness as possible, that weird tongue flick we see sometimes that is later shown on Barty Crouch Jr. when he goes mad in the courtroom, his very specific interest in Harry's success in the tournament. These all work well, even though we should have probably been suspiccious from the start, since he is the new Defence against the Dark Arts professor and that alway caused problems in the years before.
Actually, on that note, it sort of is a double subversion of expectations since movies one and two establish the DADA teachers as always evil in disguise, three subverts that with a genuine nice teacher with some dark personal problems, and then comes four where we don't have the expectation of "he must be evil" anymore and are kinda in the mindset of "he could be really nice, the one before was".
Excuse you, Chamber of Secrets had Lockhart; he was incompetent, which revealed his lies and cowardice and general lack of personal responsibility, but he was not evil.
@@alexfierro1500 I don't know, erasing peoples Memories, claiming their heroic deeds as his own and stealing their success does not scream good guy to me.
Maybe not on the same level as Voldemort, but still.
That’s a great example of a well-done plot twist
@@alexfierro1500 Old Lockhart wanted to erase Harry and Ron's memories and leave Ginny to die in the Chamber also with a cover up story that they found her mauled body in the chamber and that the boys had lost their minds over the sight. That is pretty fucked up and puts him at least somewhere on the Evil Spectrum.
The best part of the Moody reveal in Goblet of Fire is the fact that Moody is, indeed, helping Harry win the Triwizard Tournament. Why would one of Voldemort's henchmen be trying to keep Harry alive?
As good as it is, though, for me it's nothing compared to the Prisoner of Azkaban retroactive twist.
Quicksilver surviving could be an episode of the new show
What if...?
Too bad it'd be on Disney+
@@kimballbelliston5925 Why's that a "too bad"?
Someone get Masakox on this like right now.
@@mengguguo Because I'm already paying for three other streaming services, and Disney+ is set to cost more than any of those.
Aaron Myers it’s set to cost less than Hulu and Netflix what do you have?
"you were expecting a plot twist but it was me, Dio!"
DIO
Oh? You're approaching me with character development and narrative cohesion?
@@rahmanmoncatar9675 Oh ho. Well come as close as you like.
@@Usernamesdontmatter1 ORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORA
@@rahmanmoncatar9675 MUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDA
What really worked with the Prowler reveal was that it sets up future suspense, especially for anyone familiar with the comics. There, Aaron had no issues with trying to murder Miles even after knowing who he is. So the audience, including me, is left wondering what he’ll do when he finds out. And when he puts the mask back on Miles, it seems like he’s making it easier on himself to kill his nephew. Thankfully for Miles, the power of love prevails. Unfortunately for Aaron, he’s the uncle in a Spider-Man origin story.
THAT LAST SENTENCE SKSKSKAHAISHAJSIGSHS
was he trying to kill miles, though?
As much as I love age of ultron, I 100% agree with your opinions about quicksilver. And am now sad about how we will never see him again in the mcu.
16:45
Ik enough Japanese to see that it says “Omae wa mou... shindeiru”
NANI?!
*Brain explodes*
I was surprised at myself that I was actually able to recognize it! :D
Saw The Rise of Skywalker this week. Suddenly this video feels very, very relevant again.
Rise of Skywalker is easily the worst of all the SW films. Even the Ewok Adventures were better constructed as stories, albeit cheap, corny, and childish.
@@phastinemoon hater but you opins
I think every twist in that movie fits at least 3 of her 4 'bad twist' check boxes
@@phastinemoon I would point at the Star Wars Holiday Special, but I don't think it counts as a "movie".
Agreed. The Grandpa Palpatine twist was bad for a few reasons, but the biggest for me are that it ultimately meant nothing and the original path for Rey's story was more interesting.
Revealing he's Rey's grandfather halfway through the FINAL movie in the trilogy meant they had no time to actually explore that dynamic and what it meant. Luke found out Vader was his father in ESB and spent nearly all of RoTJ dealing with it. For Rey it's basically "Your grandpa was a Sith Lord, so you should be tempted by the Dark Side. Go let him take over your body."
And Rey's original story from TFA and TLJ was simply more interesting. Someone who wanted to be part of something special completely in denial that her parents abandoned her and were never coming back until it's completely shoved in her face. That feeling of loneliness gives a somewhat believable reason why she'd be tempted by the Dark Side when it's Kylo Ren offering that hand of friendship, one of the few people Rey had developed a deep connection with and who's saying she should just forget her painful past.
Maybe the real Night King was the M. Night Shymalan we found along the way
I remember reading a fanfiction with the "they were dead all along!" twist and it was written amazingly. Legit I loved it so much because of how it was foreshadowed and executed, it also triggered my thanatophobia so that isn't fun.
which fanfic was that?? im curious now
I remember reading one like that too, it was presented as a crack fic, then in the ending chapters it was revealed thru the world breaking and eventually the MC accepting his death, really well written and the reason i now read all the tags lol
This is partially why I don’t like spoilers. I love the first shock of a twist. Afterwards, you will get the suspense. But if you’re spoiled you’ll only get the suspense.
If you’re aren’t spoiled, you’ll get both
That requires a rewatch though, and not everyone has the time to do that. If a series, especially a long one that is 5+ hours, ends on a major twist, I would rather than the 5 hours of suspense, and deeper appreciation due to noticing the clues, than 1 minute of shock and 5 hours of nothing.
@chinsaw2727 They didn't say THEY gave out the spoilers they said they LIKE spoilers.
At least, that's my interpretation because I feel exactly the same way - I almost always seek out spoilery reviews because that A: tells me more about whether I'm going to be happy spending my time on this piece of media and B: it allows me to enjoy the suspense and spotting the planting and payoff.
That said, I know a lot of people really like to be surprised, so in talking to someone about the latest book/movie I'm excited about I'll usually stop halfway through and go: "Wait, are you likely to want to read/watch this? And, if so, would you be upset if I told you what happens?" If they say "yes" I'll stop; if "no" or "yes, but I don't care about spoilers", then I'm free to rant about the twists.
If you have Alzheimer's, you only get the first effect.
i think suspense for the first time is a different experience from suspense when rewatching.
@@no-ku6jp I actually do agree with this as someone who's been spoiled for major plot twists (voluntarily, mind you) before, though it does depend on how much you know about the twist beforehand. There are some twists that, if you know what the twist *is* but don't actually know the circumstances or timing of it, can be a totally different kind of suspense compared to a second viewing. You know it's coming, but you don't know when and you're dreading it the entire time. (I can't remember any specific examples at the moment, but I know I've been exposed to twists like that before.)
the best plot twists dont ALWAYS need to be foreshadowed but in the LEAST they need to make sense.
like an evil character who helps the main character can betray then in the final act. they're evil, it makes sense.
That's what I am doing.
It can also be a character or story that is a bit shady or off, like the good place where one element was weird, but makes sense after the twist. Characters can be weird too like tht one of tower of god, if youmke someonw a secret bad guy, either give a backstory that make sense or show them as off or ambivalent at times.
I think one of the funnier cases is when an evil character betrays the main character even though they've saved them beforehand. Like in the original Metal Gear, Big Boss (well, Venom Snake, but you know) reveals a good chunk of the way in that he's actually leading the uprising at Outer Heaven and he's been manipulating Snake to have him sabotaged and killed. Only this happens 90% of the way in and most of Big Boss's advice and assistance up to that point has been genuinely helpful. He doesn't start feeding false info until so deep in the story that Snake is already on the verge of undoing his entire scheme.
Reminds me of a childhood show i watched called "Secret Saturdays" Argost (Antag) helped Zack (Protag) in a couple of episodes as they both had similar powers. Argost blatantly stated "Of course i'll be plotting behind your back!" So it came to no surprise when it happened.
Blade1hunter I remember that, weirdly enough though season 2 sort of felt kind of lackluster compared to season 1, mainly for its finale.
Retroactive twists?
"On this planet you call females who have yet to become adults: Girls. It makes sense then that since you'll eventually become witches, you should be called: Magical Girls"
Maki death flashbacks
Sol jims turn to grif sid.
WE YO FRIENDS MEGUKA
Nice spoiler that no one but anime fans would get, I kinda respect that.
Madoka has both plot twist types! Retroactive with Homura and the witch revelation and trajectory with Mami dying
Ok fuck you, i'm still not over that 😭
Dabi's reveal in My Hero Academia is a great example of a twist set up, done right, feels relevant, earned, and affects the story so well and has such an impact
Agreed. Like, sure, there a lot - and I mean a lot - of people who figured it out, it made sense. But when it was finally revealed - oooohhhh boy! Endeavor’s shell shocked reaction, Shoto’s disbelief, the full backstory - everything about it felt earned, that includes if you figured the twist out. Honestly, Dabi’s reveal is one of my favorite modern story twists, right along with female Doc Ock and Uncle Aaron being the Prowler in Spiderverse. Reveals still give me chills!
@@mick3405 yeah! Totally agree
@@mick3405i liked it, but i think should have come sooner. Like, come on dude there are like 3 people who have fire power, no reason to drag it own for so long. Maybe instead of having some random villain when they were training with endeavour, have Dabi be the main antagonist of that arc, have him attack his own brother, and now it doesn't come off so late in the gamw
ok but the todoroki family drama storyline has been dragged on for way too long
Congratulations Osp, you've made meme fame. There is a subreddit called r/mythologymemes and people have started using still frames of your videos as meme templates
That there is a trajectory plot twist.
@@Chad_Eldridge here's a link to the subreddit, if you browse a little bit im sure you'll find an Osp related post
@@Chad_Eldridge sorry im an idiot. I copied it to my clip board but forgot to paste
www.reddit.com/r/mythologymemes?
13:39 There is actually one "This fun adventure was actually all a dream" story where "it was all a dream" actually works as a twist: Link's Awakening. It's revealed midway through the game that the fantastical island he's stranded and needs to wake the legendary Wind Fish to escape from is actually just the Wind Fish's dream. If he completes his quest, the Wind Fish will wake up and he'll be back in the real world, but the island and all the people in it will disappear.
The manga version even has Link go into an existential crisis, as he knows that if he wakes the Wind Fish, he'll essentially be killing everyone (or worse, considering that dreams may or may not have an afterlife), including all the island's inhabitants like Marin and her father.
He even tries to leave the island by raft but to no avail, and decides to stay on the island forever until Marin convinces Link to wake up the Wind Fish anyway.
It's not the same thing if the dream or hallucination is part of the plot rather than just negating the events of the story at the end.
There are several mystery games that came out in the last 7 years where the unusual situation the characters find themselves in is actually virtual reality, a dream, or a situation like The Truman Show. It's something that you figure out over the course of the game that recontextualizes the things that have been happening, and the games' events have consequences to the characters despite not being "real."
It'd be different if zero hints were given of these things and then just when they were about to face the villain, the characters heard, "And cut!" and they were on a television set. That kind of twist makes no sense and is only good for shock value. That's what we mean when we tell writers not to make everything be all a dream.
@@ThanhTriet600 I agree that there is a big difference between the dream being part of the plot and being tacked on at the end; that was my point, that Link's Awakening worked because it was a different kind of, "It was all a dream" twist.
Also applies to the 'sureal character study' stories, where a character has to go through strange places, experience odd events and meet weird people that are only held together by subtle hints of symbolism. In that sense, a dream twist makes it easier to contextualise all of the weirdness and encourages the audience to theorise about the the character's struggles that must have led them to experience such an elaborate adventure in their mind.
@@ThanhTriet600 saints row 3
“If you tell people that a bomb will go off in 10 minutes and then a clown stabs the hero....”
So... how Jason Todd becomes the Redhood?
No, that’s ridiculous!
A clown beat him with a crow bar.
BRO I CHOKED READING THIS LMFAO
One of my favorite twists of all time is Mysterio in spiderman ffh. Absolutely everybody who knows anything about marvel comics knows that Mysterio is one of Spiderman’s villains, so instead of trying to drag out the reveal for shock value they made it one of the campiest and fun scenes in the whole movie. It’s a straight up party as they’re celebrating getting one up on the teenager who just watched his mentor get killed.
I enjoyed it, because it seemed like it was poking fun at the idea of the MCU shifting towards being so silly and outlandish that people would believe in his BS alternate universe backstory. Then Doctor Strange Multiverse of Madness happened, and I realized we're fully in comic book ridiculousness now...
Not only that, but it didn't feel off or unnatural for people unfamiliar with the comics
I watched it with my dad. I knew about the Mysterio reveal, dad didn't. The moment Quentin asked for the glasses, dad knew. It was a twist for him, a treat for me.
Y’all now I super wish Quicksilver had survived Age of Ultron. What wasted potential.
Kami Lee I never even watched an avengers movie and I wish he lived
If you want something good with Quicksilver, then you should read Remember This Cold by Lise on Archive of Our Own. It’s exactly like the MCU except a bit more queer and Steve/Loki is a thing but it’s done really well sooooo
suddenly, i'm a lot less self-conscious about my writing and where it's going
Good. Just write what you think sounds good and then worry when your done! I'm sure if you showed it to people they would give you meaningful help that you could use to improve, and even reading it yourself can reveal issues. That's why theres a backspace key, no writer is perfect on their first draft!
Edit: not really to good
@@jynexe3056 PGJ: "suddenly, i'm a lot less self-conscious about my writing and where it's going"
You: "Don't be."
Me: *MMMMMMMMM*
@@elias.t AH WAIT DID I MISS READ THIS AHHH NO IM SORRY
You're gonna write absolute garbage for a long time but eventually it'll be good
Same here! Especially since I'm already planning some big twists so yeah
"The twist is less interesting than not having the twist":
The Village is a 2004 American period horror film written, produced, and directed by M. Night Shyamalan.
..
the guy simply just can't score can he
@@matheussanthiago9685 I honestly like the concept of Unbreakable and even knowing the twist there's a part of me that wants to rewatch it.
Then there's the rest of me that remembers the time I tried and got so bored I couldn't even get 20 minutes in. Why is it so slow? How is it so slow? I felt like I might have slipped backward in time it was so slow.
Also, the infamous How I Met Your Mother series finale.
@@sanityisrelative Nah.
Noooooo, I like that twist. It adds a tragic layer to the story.
I'm trying to write a story with a massive plot bombshell at the end. I was worried for a really long time about "wait, what if they figure it out too early?" but Red, you've soothed my worries. All that matters is that the plot twist changes the direction of the story and is appropriately hinted at.
The Spiderman Homecoming one is my favorite, when I first saw that my heart stopped, and all the way until he leaves the car is one of the most suspenseful scenes in any movie Ive seen
“Couple problems, and by a couple, I mean: WOW”
I laughed so hard at that
"who is that guy?" "It's johnson smiiith, y'know, the CEO from the beginning of the movie, remeber?" "ooooohhhhh, oh yeah, yeah ok"
Take your like xD ProZD "surprise villain reveals in animated movies" quality, very accurate big hero 6 critique xD
“Bet ya didn’t expect him, to be the, bad guy.” “Who is this guy again” “Johnson Smith” “Oh yeah, I love that guy...” “CEO of Johnson-“ “yeah that’s really- something”
The best twists are the ones foreshadowed well before the reveal scene, because it adds a new level of enjoyment on rewatches/replays.
Literally! I've been re-reading Omniscient reader's viewpoint recently, and knowing all of the twists makes it feel like a whole new book.