Fierce Firearms Review - Troubleshooting a Gun with Lots of Problems!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- Here's my review of the Fierce Twisted Rival. I was so excited to get this gun! But unfortunately it's turned out to have been a real headache. After 9 months and hundreds of $$, I did finally get it to shoot straight but there's a real caveat that comes with that. I would never take it hunting!
That said, even though it's been frustrating that this gun has been a disappointment, I learned a lot as I tested it every way that I could think of.
Let me know what you think!
Fierce eventually asked me to send the rifle back to them to see if it was out-of-spec. I knew what that meant: I would have to pay for shipping and for their time if it passed all of their tests. I didn't want to do that without some assurances, since the rifle had already passed those tests, and I could also get it to pass those tests. We went back and forth. I asked them to agree not to charge me anything and to adjust their tests to account for what I had identified. They said they wouldn't do that. So, I'm stuck with this rifle. Bummer.
0:00 Intro
0:52 Features of the Fierce Twisted Rival FP
4:16 Quality Issues
5:22 Precision Issues
6:21 Tests I Performed
8:35 At the Range
12:03 Eureka! Noticed Something Interesting
14:08 At the Range to Verify my Guess
14:49 Wrap-up
18:07 Correction From Fierce
18:41 Wrap-up (Continued)
20:22 Response from Fierce
Here's the video from @RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast with his comments about switching between lead core and solid copper bullets:
• Eps 351: Is The 458 Lo...
Here's the video from @backfire on the same topic:
• Ron Spomer Saved My Fa... - กีฬา
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Fair and thorough review! You went above and beyond your obligations to try to make this perform. Add up the ammo costs and whoo boy. You could have purchased a new rifle of another make that likely would have shot sub MOA with multiple loads -- cold and hot barrel. A hunting rifle must shoot a tight 3 shot group, the 2nd and 3rd striking within about 1/2" of the first on either extreme. One rarely gets or needs more than 3 shots when hunting. One even more rarely gets 2nd and 3rd shots 7 minutes after the previous shot!
Thanks, Ron! You're right when you say that I spent a lot on this test! Probably shoulda moved on much sooner. But I will say that it was interesting and satisfying to finally figure out what the issue was.
Glad you confirmed that any rifle should shoot a 3-shot, MOA group. After Fierce suggested that this rifle was performing within specs, I was beginning think I was crazy.
Yep your right Ron, good barrels usually aren't picky.
@huntingdad Ya know, I never comment on videos. But this kind of BS is over the top. You guys are on a witch hunt like a bunch of folks with pitchforks. Entitled group of people that agree with stiff arming people into getting what you want through social media. Wow, barrel heat causes larger group dispersion, this guy is a genius. Get a heavier gun then, don’t buy lightweight hunting rifles. Fair and thorough review, what is Ron Spomer puffing on? Rickety bench, plywood thrown on the grass, come on. Maybe Hornady should hire you for their new lead ballistician. This is sad to see, any company can have issues. If you are buying something, wouldn’t you want to see what you’re buying first before making an agreement? Fierce is buying the gun back from you, so why not let them see it first? This is your third hunting rifle? Now you are the foremost expert on ballistics and rifles? I can only speak on one Firece rifle, and that is the one I own. It has done nothing but put a smile on my face when I pull the trigger. But I also have reasonable expectations for a light weight hunting rifle. You folks need to work for the Washington post.
@huntingdad Ya know, I never comment on videos. But this kind of BS is over the top. You guys are on a witch hunt like a bunch of folks with pitchforks. Entitled group of people that agree with stiff arming people into getting what you want through social media. Wow, barrel heat causes larger group dispersion, this guy is a genius. Get a heavier gun then, don’t buy lightweight hunting rifles. Fair and thorough review, what is Ron Spomer puffing on? Rickety bench, plywood thrown on the grass, come on. Maybe Hornady should hire you for their new lead ballistician. This is sad to see, any company can have issues. If you are buying something, wouldn’t you want to see what you’re buying first before making an agreement? Fierce is buying the gun back from you, so why not let them see it first? This is your third hunting rifle? Now you are the foremost expert on ballistics and rifles? I can only speak on one Firece rifle, and that is the one I own. It has done nothing but put a smile on my face when I pull the trigger. But I also have reasonable expectations for a light weight hunting rifle. You folks need to work for the Washington post.
@huntingdad Ya know, I never comment on videos. But this is over the top. You guys are on a witch hunt like a bunch of folks with pitchforks. Entitled group of people that agree with stiff arming people into getting what you want through social media. Wow, barrel heat causes larger group dispersion, this guy is a genius. Get a heavier gun then, don’t buy lightweight hunting rifles. “Fair and thorough review”what is Ron Spomer puffing on? Rickety bench, plywood thrown on the grass, come on. Maybe Hornady should hire you for their new lead ballistician. This is sad to see, any company can have issues. If you are buying something, wouldn’t you want to see what you’re buying first before making an agreement? Fierce is buying the gun back from you, so why not let them see it first? This is your third hunting rifle? Now you are the foremost expert on ballistics and rifles? I can only speak on one Firece rifle, and that is the one I own. It has done nothing but put a smile on my face when I pull the trigger. But I also have reasonable expectations for a light weight hunting rifle. You folks need to work for the Washington post.
Thanks for saving me the headache. Was very close to snagging this exact same rifle from my local shop.
I had a Fierce, like I said had and I know of three other friends of mine that had issues with there's as well and they all sold they're rifles as well. I will never own another one and neither will they, I am glad you did this video.
Hey not so fast... don't let the cat out of the bag before I can sell mine too!
5:39 I've never heard of discounting the cold bore shot when measuring a group like this. That's not a 0.244 MOA group. It is really a ~1.3 MOA group. Lol. That's the secret the small groups (on a rifle that is a piece of junk), just ignore the shots you don't like. The fact they think that's acceptable for a $2000+ rifle is absolutely absurd. Thanks for letting us know. I will definitely steer clear of these clowns.
I agree. The cold bore shot is the most important one! I don't get a mulligan when when I'm hunting.
@@huntingdad Exactly! The first shot can’t be discounted, especially with a hunting rifle.
@@huntingdadI wonder how many boxes of ammo they go through to produce a group under the .75 moa for the Rogue and .5 moa for yours lol
@@ArpexOfficial Great question. I mean, they actually didn't even produce a group under 0.5 MOA. They just discounted the shot that they didn't like and moved on.
I'm not convinced the group isn't shot at 40 or 50 yards to get it within compliance.
Super clear and fair analysis! Really cool to see this breakdown and hunt for the problem!
@DJ-rx4et Junk bench and plywood thrown on the grass. Oh yeah, fair analysis for sure.
Just have a custom gun made on a Remington 700 action. When I did that, my world changed. If I’m spending 2k it will be on a custom rig. They just shoot everything good. If you want a long range rig, stay away from the thin profile barrels. Just my experience with guns since about 1970. I owned 3 custom guns and everyone shot good with any load. They just don’t have fliers like production guns but my barrels were a little on the heavy side. I hate pencil barrels because I went through the same thing you did. Waste of time, ammo and money. Also just shoot with a front rest and a bag or just sand bags at both ends. I hate sleds of any kind because you don’t use them hunting. Sleds also mask problems so we never learn to shoot better naturally. That is important when hunting. Sorry for the hassle you went through but it was a very good video. You really tried to make it shoot.
This is not the way a manufacture should handle a problem. It's on them not you to remedy your complaint. It's not the fact that you had a problem with their product, it's how "Fierce" handled that problem. They "Fierce" failed miserably. I will not buy anything from them. Something tells me this isn't the first time this has happened. There are other manufactures that would be happy to sell you a good rifle.
On the other hand, you did a fantastic job analyzing that rifles issues. Good luck!
Thanks for the kind words.
I'm inclined to agree that the larger issue is with the way they handled (or avoided) the issue. Not a good sign.
How can they help if you won’t send the rifle in?
@@MarkDesmond-q5x Good question. I was willing to send the rifle back, but only if they were willing to assure me that the bargain had changed from the last time I sent it in. There would be no reason for me to blindly send the rifle in to go through the same tests that the rifle had already passed. Especially when I had demonstrated in the video that their tests didn't account for critical flaws that I had identified in the video.
So, I told Fierce that I'd be happy to send it back if they could assure me that they would cover costs and that they would adjust their testing to account for the issues I showed in the video.
I think that the video was convincing enough to merit at least that much, but Fierce disagreed. They told me "We will not be able to meet the requirements you have presented." That being the case, it made no sense for me to exercise yet more faith in a company that had failed me to that point, hoping that they would adjust their tests, and not charge me yet more money.
I decided to move on. I think I made the correct decision.
I agree. So many manufacturers step over dollars to pick up dimes. Even if he didn't make this video, if he told a buddy who was considering buying a Fierce rifle about this experience, that would cost them a sale. If his buddy told someone else it would cost them multiple sales. If the rifle had performed well or they had made it right, hunting dad might buy one or more of these rifles in the future. My point is, by leaving a customer holding the bag on a defective rifle, they are likely losing more than one rifle sale.
I've gone back and forth on Fierce for the last 18 months. I've put multiple Fierce rifles on watch on gun broker but never ended up buying one. Thankfully I saw something recently where an individual (who would know) stated that Fierce is the next Christensen Arms, which is NOT good. I'll continue to keep getting rifle built or use a Tikka action to build something with. My custom Tikka was less than this Fierce, weighs less, and shoots half to quarter minute with 3 factory ammo so far.
Seekins way better
@@jamessammann9183 They don't make left hand. I checked. Thus, they won't get any money from me
Thank u was planning to also get 300 win mag or 300 PRC saved me a headache thanks a punch good luck on your next purchase
Exactly the same experience with the Carbon CT Edge in 6.5 PRC. Only a handful of times shot as promised. The rest of the shots were wildly unpredictable. Threw all kinds of ammo at it, and noticed no difference. Sold it, never looked back. Thanks for the review. Very very comprehensive.
Excellent honest review. You've done everything possible to rectify the issue at a large expense.
I'd put a good quality barrel on it if everything else is okay on it
All the best in getting it to shoot. Subscribed.
I heard it said somewhere that Fierce uses a Remington 700 action footprint.. I'm wondering if this is true and if a guy could simply put it in a superior MDT chassis. Really not all to happy with my $4000 dud, cheek riser is too short, no adjustable LOP, and a sloppy lock on the folding mechanism.. and that's without even mentioning the terrible groups.
Thanks much, you just saved me $2K because I had Fierce as one of my favorites for a purchase this year. I expect the rifle to shoot at same POI whether cold bore, clean bore, or fairly warm and fouled. I do have two rifles that shoot a little slow with a clean barrel, but still group well with all other shots. Very disappointing but very enlightening that Fierce actually sent you a target with a cold bore flyer as if that is okay. My guess is the rifle has a bedding problem.
Very interesting to see! I had similar issues with Christensen - the Mesa and Ridgeline - in 6.5CM. And funny enough, my buddy had a Ridgeline that we shot as well. We both shot each rifle, different factory loads, and we always got good groups with his, and we always had 1 flyer with both of mine.
I got rid of both of those, switched to a Bergera in 6.5PRC, and it shoots good groups.
I didn’t want to mess around with shipping them back and having them perform tests. I’m not a hand loader, so factory ammo needs to perform for me. And it didn’t perform. Time to move on.
Thanks for your efforts putting this all together.
thank you for your honesty
Thanks for the review on your rifle, I feel sorry for ya mate, with all the evidence why fierce just didn’t replace it or offer you a refund baffles me, hoping you much better luck with whatever you replace it with, subbed, cheers Yogi ✌️🇦🇺
Well done review with going the distance with due diligence to source the problem.
That factory test target speaks volumes, possibly their barrel mfg stress relieving is inadequate
I bought one of the carbon barreled rifles from Fierce after the Western Hunting Expo this year and it’s no joke one of the best shooting rifles that I own. I’m really shocked that you are having all these issues. You definitely put the work in to try and figure out what the issue is.
@tgriffiths45, That is how Firece rifles shoot normally. Even if someone truly has an issue they will back it up. These guys are chapped because they can’t shoot. Or they want performance on a 20 pound bench rest rifle, from a lightweight hunting rifle. Or they just gave up after trying one box of bullets. Cheers
Glad I saw this. They were on my list of companies to buy from. I’ll be moving on.
Last year I purchased the CT Rival FP in 300PRC. Was struggling to shoot under 1 MOA. After 100 rounds of Hornady ELDM ammo, started reloading with H1000 and tried Nosler 210ABLR, 215 Speer impact's and 212 ELDX. After 100 more rounds of reloaded ammo, I finally took it to a local Gunsmith, and he recommended bedding the stock as the action was sliding in the stock. after the bedding job, it consistently shot 1 MOA, even though it is a .5MOA Guarantee. Found some Nosler 200gr Accubond's, and now its shooting .25MOA. Was not easy, but at least it shoots good now.
Glad that worked out for you! I might do something similar. I don't trust this barrel, so that'll probably be the first thing to go.
Your lucky most 300 prc are lucky to moa groups. 1.25 is more normal. Just my opinion nothing more to light of rifle for the kick they have is the issue. Only a guess.
@@huntingdad My gunsmith said, that if I couldn't figure it out and Fierce did not fix the MOA guarantee issue, he recommended having a Proof barrel installed and he felt confident that would fix the issue, said he sees similar issues with Christensen Arms.
@@deandaxdusty Hmmm... that's really tempting. I might do that.
@@huntingdadhave a smith bed the recoil area, it solved my problems
I learned many years ago, that I would shoot one shot, and I would wait a minute or two minutes, thin barrels seemed to move around when heated up from firing. A Browning X-Bolt in 6.5 Creedmoor.
Would you ever be willing to test it again next winter to see if changes anything?
Absolutely awesome analysis. I would put a can on it, might change it dramatically
I have to agree. When you spend that kind of money and the barrel looks like that? That's disappointing. I have Howas, Christensen MPR, Ruger Precision rifle Bergaras. The only rifle that shot consistently bad was the Howa stainless varmint 223 which I rebarreled. Definitely will not tolerate the quality in an expensive gun. The barrel should be hand lapped.
Sorry to hear you are having these problems, I know exactly how it feels to have sunk so much time and ammo into one of these things to try and get it to perform reliably. Mine is the Mountain Reaper in 7PRC - an even more expensive model with the carbon fiber barrel and folding stock. The observation you made about barrel quality is definitely on point, my chamber looks like yours when scoped. I put 11 boxes of factory match and eldx that they claim the half MOA groups with.. I got 2 groups under 1 MOA. I started to hand load a few of them and groups shrunk a bit but still nowhere near what is sold as a half MOA rifle. On top of these issues that were consistent with yours, the extra money I spent for the folding stock ended up being an additional handicap. There is no way to eliminate the sloppy vertical movement in the locking mechanism, which introduces even more inconsistency when shooting and eventually starts to wear down getting even sloppier.
As for 300PRC I went with Bergara - a known barrel manufacturer - and I have never had these problems and it cost a fraction of the price.
Thanks for sharing!
I am in awe of your patience and willingness to chase the accuracy issue down to the granular level. I'm grateful that I have not purchased a Fierce rifle. I got a chance to look at several at a local dealer and quickly noticed the sloppy fit and finish to them. I have also read where their guns are consistantly inconsistant. One guy thinks they're great, the next is like you. I ended up buying an Allterra Arms Mountain Steel in 6.5 PRC. After shooting the heck out of it with ELD-X and my own handloads, I bought a Mountain Carbon in 7PRC. It shoots even better! Both are consistantly .25" moa, but they cost quite a bit more than a Fierce does. Maybe the old saying "you get what you pay for" could be true?
Ron Spomer in his 308 video series also showed groups will tighten up if you hold the front of the rifle.
That's another thing i found about my reaper... It will shoot better (still not the advertised half MOA) if you completely change your shooting form you have trained with other rifles successfully, especially if you are shooting prone. This thing actually does the OPOSTITE of a training rifle.. it forces you to break your trained form and train something different specifically for that rifle.
Thanks for the video. A couple things to check:
Fire 3 rounds no more than 30 seconds apart.
Set the rifle down for 10 to 15 minutes. Fire another 3 rounds. That would be 3 rounds through an ambient barrel. If the second group is satisfactory I would start looking at the joint in the recoil lug area. I had this issue with a sub moa I had. I've never owned a fierce but I've troubleshot a couple for friends. Neither were bad but both consistently shot better groups from ambient barrels. Curious to hear.
A few years ago I was looking for a new hunting rifle and the Fierce Mountain Reaper seemed like what I was looking for. Just a modicum of research on forums taught me to STAY AWAY FROM FIERCE. I went with a Bergara Mg Lite and never looked back.
This is why 3 shot MOA guarantees from manufacturers are worthless. A rifle needs to be able to shoot 20-30 shots (with appropriate cooling) all under 1-1.5 inches to be sure it will perform at long range in the field. And the cold bore shots are the most important.
I think 10 shots into 3” at 300y should be the test for “premium” rifles. I mean sako is 5 shots into 1moa which is still a better test than 3 shots.
Regarding going back and forth from a monolithic bullet to a jacketed bullet, what I can tell you is, I've been doing this a LONG time. I've determined that the need to clean to bare metal is a myth. Not once have I ever noticed it make a difference and I shoot a lot of round robin style groups.
As far as cleaning to bare metal, no patch will tell you if this has occurred. Only a borescope will do that. After a deer season and probably 80 rounds through his 30-06 Browning, a buddy of mine cleaned his rifle until patches were coming out white. I showed him the bore with a borescope and he was far from bare metal. Black carbon fouling was still heavy and slight copper streaks on the lands.
Thanks for posting this video. It is the last straw and an important piece of intel for me to not move forward with a Fierce rifle. I've had superior luck with cheap used Remington 700 actions that I used as a foundation to build something with a quality barrel like a Brux, Benchmark, K&P, Krieger, Bartlein, etc. Yes they cost more but still worth it
Rem 700 used: $400
Blueprint: $200 avg
Barrel: $400
Cut, crown, chamber, blast, thread: $350 to 500
Stock: as low as $325 carbon fiber
Replacement trigger: $125 is what I just paid for Independence day Trigger Tech at 1.5 pounds
Bed stock: $200
Bottom metal kit - floor plate ~ $229
$2300 roughly for a superior rifle
Interesting. I suspected that the monolithic / lead core thing was hooey, but thought it was worth a shot.
Good point about cleaning too. I think you're probably right about that too.
Sweet setup man! Do you put everything together yourself?
@@huntingdad No. I pay professional rifle builders to build for me. I have considered an apprenticeship with a rifle builder, if and when I can afford to retire. Right now I have to work until at least 40 years after I die.
@@huntingdad I got my flexible Teslon bore scope on amazon for $55. worth every penny
Definitely not a myth. I’ve experienced this degradation of accuracy with an AR15 trying to go back and forth between 77 grain match loads and 70 grain TSXs. My TSX groups went from about 1.5” at 100 yards to about 4” at 100, while several 77 grain lead core loads remained sub MOA.
@@phild9813 Interesting. Thanks for sharing! Any idea what's going on there to make accuracy change so much?
Had a very similar issue with a European rifle manufacturer, they where terrible to deal with and the main importer into the UK was extremely hard to deal with. Never again and I feel your pain. Best thing is you will never deal with them again you have informed all us that watch TH-cam. Good on ye
Wich manufacturer was it? I had several German Rifles from different Manufacturers and never had Problems or Problems with their Support?
A good friend just sold his. Many, many issues. It was a carbon barrel. They replaced the barrel, and he could still not get it to zero. Multiple scopes and multiple scope mounts, different brakes, suppressor etc. NO combination of gear could make it work.
Wow great video and really thorough analysis of the rifle. Thank you for taking all that time and effort to save us the heart ache of this. I will pass on Fierce rifles for now.
On another note I have a CVA Cascade in 300 PRC and I love that thing. Maybe an option for you.
Good to know! I'll check it out. I did order a Weatherby 307 300 PRC, but I've heard a lot of good advice from the comments. Might reconsider my options.
Thanks for the input!
Wow, what a PR disaster for Fierce. Give the man his money back.
I was in the same boat with a Carbon Rogue in 300 PRC! I sent it twice and they never got it right! I shot 200+ shots between 1-2 barrels, I don’t trust them when they said they changed the barrel😂😂😂😂 I paid Short Action Customs to troubleshoot and fix it. They fixed it by skim bedding it and removing one of the ejector plungers. It now shoots .5-1 MOA groups with hand loads using Lapua brass, Match 215, 79.7 gr H1000, Badlands precision Bulldozer 195 gr and a COAL of 3.670. AVG is 3006 FPS in 97 degree weather. I still wouldn’t buy another Fierce. Seekins on the other hand is a great company to do business with.
The barrel manufacturers' stress relief (or lack thereof) after rifling plays a huge role in shots walking. Sorry to see your frustrating results. My guess is that if you had a good aftermarket barrel chambered and screwed on, that you would see significantly better results. My last 7 barrels have all been cut rifled (4 Barlein, 3 Krieger, and 1 Brux) and I have ZERO cold bore or thermal shift. Best of luck man, and I'm glad that this video is taking off on you.
You could sell or replace the barrel. Personally, I would rather have a,Browning, Weatherby mark v, or a Sako. I've always preferred a short bolt throw. It's not needed, but it's preferred
This is wild this video
Popped up on my feed …about a year ago I decided to get into a fierce rifle , it seems like a good deal for the price ..2 lug bolt , carbon stock , carbon barrel . Soon as I received the rifle the first thing I noticed was the fit and finish was horrendous, nothing like the pictures ..air bubbles in
The carbon fibre , shitty paint job that u could feel was rough , barrel contour was rough where the metal met the carbon fibre , then I start working on some hand loads , I had the same issues as you .. I tried all sorts of different powders , primers , brass and factory ammo , it didn’t like anything , worst shooting rifle iv ever owned . One other thing I thought was insulting if you ever watch any of their videos on TH-cam the main guy who I’m guessing is the owner literally muzzles people with his barrel in every single video , u wanna buy a product from a guy like that ? He can’t even hunt safe .. u think any quality control goes into their product ?
Do you know the steel alloy they use on their barrels? I am wondering if they are cheaping out on the materials or using a material that hasn't been tested for this application. Seems like a used Remington 700 for $500 is a better option than this $2,000 gun.
I also had a fierce rifle with similar issues, I had a mtn reaper with a carbon barrel chambered in 6mm creedmoore. Was not satisfied with its accuracy, groups were all over the place. So you are not alone.
Sorry to hear that!
I have a Carbon Rival in 6.5 PRC. It will not shoot under 1.25” at 100 yards. But- I can shoot under 2” at 500 & 4.5” at 1000. I’m no ballistician but I wonder if these long high BC projectiles need more time to stabilize than 100 yards of flight time. Just a thought.
Jim was talking about copper bullets
I shot solid copper bullets for this test (Barnes LRX)
the gun company really dropped the ball on this you should have gotten a full refund along with an apology fierce is a junk company thanks for the warning
Fierce Rifles: Established 2014. LOL
There’s your answer.
All kidding aside, yes some some barrel manufacturers are more temperature sensitive than others, especially thin barrels not engineered correctly.
Sorry for all inconvenience thanks for let know to the public the type of company .
Were they notthe one that sent out a rifle without any rifling a year ago?
I have heard both good and bad things about Fierce. Those that end up with good copies of the rifles swear by them, but there are other situations like yours that seem to indicate that their quality control may not be up to the task, particularly for their price point. For most of us, dropping $2K or more on a rifle is a big deal. Having such a purchase not turn out would be a nightmare.
Great review. You have been more than fair. I am in Australia and ordered and paid for a twisted rival in 7PRC over a year ago. It’s still not here. It’s apparently on its way. Man I hope I don’t have these problems but have heard enough of them to fear it’s not uncommon.
I hope yours turns out better than mine!
Almost got one glad I didn’t cause of the bad reviews I’ve seen, got a bagara carbon instead and shoots great. Good luck and happy hunting
I’m glad I bought a Weatherby Mark V now.
I had one of their CT Rages in 6.8 western. had multiple issues including 1.5 Moa groups, returned the rifle and waited months to get it back. during that time I had exchanged emails with John mogle where he admitted that half of the 6.8 westerns they put out won't shoot half MOA as their guarantee states. This was wild and also my evidence to win the credit card dispute. The whole process was a headache and extremely disappointing. Just lucky I got my money back. 1/10 would not reccomend.
I had one in a 300 Rum and it shot awesome for me. Groups in the .2 .3 easy. It was the carbon barrel. Sucks that it won't shoot. You would be money ahead to have a Bartlein or Brux barrel installed.
When troubleshooting it is wise to challenge your assumptions.
Are you certain that the lead sled is not contributing to your dispersion?
In your footage there is a lot of muzzle jump… your fore end is jumping right off of the support and that flimsy table is all over the place man!
You might want to consider trying a support system that reduces muzzle jump… a lightly preloaded bipod laying prone with a good rear bag might be worth a try.
Cheers!
Good point. I did consider that. I shot groups with the lead sled and without and didn't see a significant change.
You're definitely right about that table! It was a challenge to get it steady. The next test was with a concrete table. The group size was about the same though.
The fact that I was able to get a 6-shot 0.5 MOA group with the lead sled, when I cooled the barrel down makes it highly likely (in my mind) that temperature is the main factor (not muzzle jump).
@@huntingdad Agreed.
Sometimes I wonder about fluting and barrel heat dispersion. If the flutes are not perfectly radially symmetrical, can barrel fluting exacerbate POI shift from barrel heat? Also can the machining from the fluting induce asymmetrical residual stresses in the steel that if not stress relieved may cause bending when the barrel is cyclically heated during firing?
I know… tough question. 🤷🏻♂️
With Fierce and Christensen what I’ve observed is this:
They build a lot of guns overall. 95-99ish out of a batch of 100 are INCREDIBLE. Absolutely worth every dollar, and a huge step up from your standard brands.
1-5ish of that batch (I’m of course just picking numbers, what I’m getting at is the vast majority are great, a small percentage are REALLY bad) will be terrible. At the price point these rifles sell, that is not acceptable. If a rifle of this category is found to be unacceptable, the manufacturer should ABSOLUTELY handle it for you, not find reasons and technicality’s that they don’t “have” to.
I own a 7mm prc fierce rage carbon. It will shoot half inch like yours. Factory and hand loads. The cold bore shot is always an inch away. The other four will be in a half inch. But the way it shoots that if I let it cool down and clean after every group. Like to talk about it to get it off my chest. I thought I was crazy till I run into your video.
Hey, who doesn’t like shooting cloverleafs at 100… that is always a good thing.
BUT…
IMO shooting dots at 100 is overrated for most practical hunting scenarios especially with light weight factory magnums.
Also, there is an order of magnitude more meaning in a 6rd group compared to a 3rd group. If you are investing 9 rounds anyways in 3- 3rd groups why not stack all 9 onto one target with cooling between each 3rd volley and then calculate the mean radius of the 9rd group? This will reveal way more insight into performance than chasing little cloverleafs… and… it will give you a good mean point of impact to feed into your ballistic solver for subsequent long range testing.
If the 9rd group fits inside of a 2” diameter you are seriously golden for big game hunting.
Then go shoot a 10” steel plate at 400yds. A rifle that performs as described above on a calm day can slay that plate at that distance consistently… but… will not be able to produce ½” cloverleafs at 100.
If your goal is groups at 100 I totally get it, but if your goal is slay the beast, it is entirely possible that you are chasing your tail a bit.
I have more than one rifle that posts mediocre 1.5” 5rd groups at 100 whilst performing admirably on steel at ranges all the way out to 800m.
Farting around with 3rd groups at 100 is dead to me now… been there, done that, wasted tons of ammo.
But shhhh… I still get a little moist when 3 are touching… and that’s ok… don’t hold it against me. 😂
BTW… wild ass flyers are concerning… I am with you there. A rifle that posts mediocre groups with reliable repeatable consistency is a good hunting rifle… but if you are throwing wild flyers on the regular it is impossible to achieve confidence.
Cheers!
Good job with all that diligent testing.
If it can't shoot 3 rounds under an inch there's really no point in moving forward with 5-9 shots lol. Plus, 3 shot groups is more than sufficient for hunting purposes
That is a bedding issue all day long. I've worked on 4 of these guns ball 4 had bedding problems.
No, it's a garbage rifle/company issue lol
@HazardousRob I agree. Like said. I've worked on a few, and I would not buy one. This is exactly how all 4 of them shot. I bedded the action with Marinetex and made sure the barrel was 100% free floated from the recoil lug to the tip of the stock. Issue #2 here. Get rid of these junk sleds! They ruin accuracy, and your zero will not be the same. Issue #3 These rifles are very light weight. Lighter the rifle, the harder they are to shoot repetitively and accurately. I did not see the barrel issues that were shown in the rifle here. That barrel looked like it was shot and never cleaned. If you are going to break the $2,000 price point. Just get a rifle built.
@@joshdozier1719 I’m having the same problems on my Fierce listed here, bedding job looks decent on the rifle, but is there something specific I should be looking for that would indicate it’s bad? You’re saying you worked on 4 fierce rifles with this issue or just generally? Did bedding bring them sub .5 MOA?
After this I would never by from this company. You done a great job on this video.
Fierce rifles are flawless and shoot under .50. This guy can’t shoot
@@jasonfarley7990 why would you say that!?! Do you know him? You should say thank you for being brave enough to share his story.
@jasonfarley7990 That bench is premium too👌🏻
Was thinking of getting a mini rogue in 22 creed..... now imma wait for more reviews on Fierce rifles
Good idea. Look at more reviews. Take my experience with a grain of salt. Others might have had a great experience. One thing to consider is how Fierce reacted when it came to this issue. They were anything but eager to help. Got defensive. That's definitely something to consider.
I'm a nut when it comes to researching products before I buy. All of the semi custom rifles available in my area that were competing with the Fierce Rogue CT seemed to have similar issues (weatherby and christensen). It's really frustrating that mfg won't stand behind their products. Doing it again I'd buy sako, browning or build a custom. I was lucky my 7mm prc rogue is ammo picky but shoots well. I may have a minor headspace issue, as I do get light to moderate pressure signs from factory hornady ammo.
I wish you had bore scoped it after you cleaned it a lot.
I had a Fierce Carbon as well that shot terrible. I sent it back to them after they blamed the scope which I also sent back to Leupold. Leupold stated no issues and Fierce stated it shot great and sent me a target. I bought the ammo they used to shoot the target and immediately it shot almost 3 MOA when my other rifles shoot 1-.5 MOA. I even waited 10 min between shots with their rifle to let the barrel cool down as much as I could to give it a chance. They are not worth the money.
Man, that sucks! I'm sorry to hear that.
Your experience is exactly the reason I chose not to send it back to Fierce. If the gun was within spec when it left their facility, it was likely to continue to be within their specs. And I'd be out another $200 or so.
That table is not stable 😢
Agreed! Won't be shooting from that table again. The last test was from a concrete table. (But the groups sizes were about the same.)
I wish you posted this four months ago. Sadly I bought the same model with same caliber. It have the same problem. I tried everything like you did. It still shoot like shit. I live in canada. Customer service? Forget about it 😂😂😂
Good evening. Just a thought... could you post a side by side of you shooting the problematic rifle and the 6.5cm together. I did notice that your shooting bench moves like a mother-flower with the recoil from your rifle. Just a thought. Happy hunting
I did have some footage of me shooting the 65 CM with that crappy, wobbly table but decided to remove it because it was suddenly unnecessary when I realized that the Fierce shot a 0.5" group, so I removed that footage. (The Weatherby probably averaged 0.75" groups, BTW.)
Had exact same issues with the carbon barrel version. Stock wasn’t even spot bedded.. Had a smith fully bed action and still shot like shit. Ended up adding an ec-tuner break just to get it to shoot 1moa… my $200 budget rifles outshoot this fierce..
Whoa! Was it a Fierce?
Carbon rival in 300wm..
I won't exactly say I'm a bolt gun snob, because from my collection I am very clearly not. But I am a stickler for precision and long range shooting. I've always done 5 shot groups, with the expectation that there was going to be some kind of repeatable dispersion. The dispersion was going to be from the first shot to the last, not from the first shot to the second, WTF? You know, you did the statistical analysis and proved your point. Never heard of Fierce before this, and look forward to not hearing their name in the future.
I have basically the same rifle but with a carbon barrel in 7 PRC and it's doing very similar things. You have helped convinced me to send it down the road and get something that shoots. I've talked to Fierce and feel by using their "warranty" is just throwing more money at a problem I shouldn't be having. Sometimes learning is expensive and I'm probably going to trade it off and take the beating. I had high hopes and I like the rifle but if it won't shoot it's worthless.
Man, I'm sorry to hear that!
I know exactly how it feels to have sunk so much time and ammo into one of these things to try and get it to perform reliably. Mine is the Mountain Reaper in 7PRC - an even more expensive model with the carbon fiber barrel and folding stock. I put 11 boxes of factory match and eldx that they claim the half MOA groups with.. I got 2 groups under 1 MOA. I started to hand load a few of them and groups shrunk a bit but still nowhere near what is sold as a half MOA rifle. On top of these issues that were consistent with yours, the extra money I spent for the folding stock ended up being an additional handicap. There is no way to eliminate the sloppy vertical movement in the locking mechanism, which introduces even more inconsistency when shooting and eventually starts to wear down getting even sloppier.
@foonus406 have you givin them a chance to help?
@@MarkDesmond-q5x I reached out to my gunsmith, who was able to get it to group when the barrel was "hot to the touch" which is basically useless. He also told me that they would likely do the same thing and if they could produce an acceptable group the shipping cost would be on me and i would end up with the same rifle with nothing solved.
Exactly
After reading the comments it looks like you are not alone as well as I am not alone. I have the CT rival in 300 prc and have had all the same issues. Using hornady ammo I could not get anything close to 1moa. let alone .5. I spent a year testing with reloads and never got close to the .5moa. I decided to go to the factory in UT and the shooting school so I could show them the issues and see if they could show me that it was not the gun. They were not interested in helping me, and it might have been because some of the other guys at the school were having bigger issues than I was. I never did get any help with getting to .5 moa. After another 6 months of testing it seems I have a load that is sub 1moa but not .5. After listening to one of Johns podcast he made the statement that most people cant shoot a .5 moa but you never tell a guy he cant shoot. Gave me the impression that they think its the shooter and not the gun. Thanks for posting this as its a little bit of a releif that I am not alone with this issue but also a bit of a dissapointment that I am not alone.
Im interested in gettinf an Antler Arms. They used to make the high end fierce rifles before they had a falling out of sorts. Only available in Canada but should be free from these issues.
Hey buddy, It's not just the steal barrels. I bought a carbon rival in 28 Nosler and had the same troubles. I sent my gun back three times. They told me that the cold bore is not counted in the group. I ended up bedding the action and that seemed the help a little bit. i ask for my money back also with no luck.
Bummer!
Hey TH-camrs, my name is Cody. I am the customer service rep at Fierce Firearms that was corresponding with Hunting Dad on this rifle. Just wanted to share what was discussed from our point of view. The offer still stands that was presented to Hunting Dad. The offer that was presented, was to get the rifle in to our facility and check it out for any issues, on our dime. The first email I sent in response included a prepaid shipping label for Hunting Dad to use to send the rifle back in. The only point I wanted to make, is that we wanted the rifle in our possession to examine and test it before any decision was made. Once we had the rifle and was able to examine and test it, then we could have a conversation based on those results. I am still happy to work with Hunting Dad on his rifle, the label I sent is still valid and may be used to ship the rifle to us on our dime. Thanks
Give the man his money back
did you read the comment? Fierce offered to get the rifle back. Never denied him a refund just wanted to look at the rifle
@loganmorton9304 Looks like they were trying to get in to test first
$2000 plus rifle should not be a headache for the consumer. I would send it back if it’s on their dime. Bad reviews will cost them customers in the long run. Thanks for the info
At a cost of $200 + dollars + the cost of ammo if they can shoot one group. Not the first group but a group and then you pay for return shipping also.
I bought one of their rifles last year. One of the biggest mistakes I ever made. After purchasing the rifle I noticed after firing the rifle the recoil would cause the safety to engage and not a lot me to operate the bolt. I contacted fierce they replaced the safety. Once I got the rifle back I started shooting again and immediately more issues arose, the rifle wouldn’t hold a group much like the rifle in this video, and my gun would fail to eject shells. I had to almost pry on the bolt to make it eject. After following Cody’s instructions on how to solve the ejection issues, there was no change. It still failed to eject the spent casing, with no improvement on accuracy despite trying many different powders, bullets, and grains, even different brass. Sent it back to fierce a second time and they said they fixed the “ extractor”. Once I got the rifle back, i ended up selling the rifle as I could no longer trust the rifle to function properly while hunting. I would not recommend any fierce rifle to anyone.
First and foremost >Have the action bedded .
Second > scrap the flimsy bench.
Third >Try Hornady Eld-x .
Watching you shoot from your bench it was moving all over the place from recoil and that affects accuracy a great deal. A shooting bench must be completely stable with no movement.
Couldn't agree more. That table was so shaky! That said, I did get a 0.5" group from that shaky table.
I also shot the next test at a concrete table and the groups looked almost identical. So, I think I accounted for the instability well enough.
@@huntingdad one option for you is to have a competent gunsmith re-barrel the rifle and the bore scope shows throat damage on the replacement barrel that the manufacturer should warranty. Repeatability is a major component of accuracy and a moving platform is a major issue and moving the position of the rifle between shots also degrades repeatability. I frequently practice at 2 miles and use a Fierce fury long range chambered for 28 Nosler that shoots 1/8 moa with Nosler 175gr ABLR loaded with 82gr Retumbo. I have shot long range for over 40 years and was trained by the Army and LE as a counter sniper and have competed in bench rest to long range matches. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
@@USAsportsmanIdaho I think I will re-barrel this rifle. Thanks for the advice. I don't know much about this process so I might reach out. I appreciate your offer!
And I will never spend that kind of money on a fierce again.
I had the same experience with a Bergara B-14 HMR in 308. It didn't shoot was wildly is this rifle did but I was getting ~1.5-2.0 MOA 5-shot groups with the factory ammo they recommended and ~1.2 MOA 5-shot groups with the best handload I could work up for it. I sent it to Bergara twice. The first time they just fired a couple of 3-shot groups through it and returned it without even telling me it was coming back. I was away and had to pay the courier to hold it. The 2nd time they recrowned it and returned it with rust all over the bolt and inside the barrel. It shot just as poorly as ever.
I asked for a refund since they had caused my gun to rust. I even had borescope footage of the barrel right after I got it back which showed the rust was coming through the crap they left in the barrel (They clearly hadn't even run a single cleaning patch down the barrel after test firing it.). They told me I was a liar and was making up the fact they caused the gun to rust. They also swore up and down that they had cleaned the gun which clearly wasn't the case. Anyway, I also cut my losses and sold that hunk of junk.
Since then I got a Tikka CTR in 6.5 Creedmoor. That gun averages ~0.5 MOA for 5-shot groups with just about every bullet I've tried in it. So, in the end, some good came out of it. I learned just how amazing Tikka rifles are.
I also had the same problem with my Bergara B-14 rifle in 308, I got rid of it.
I’ve been involved with firearms for 60 years and I have my favorite rifles shooting quarter minute groups. All of my ten hunting and steel rifles shoot at least half-inch to three-quarter inch at 100 yards all day long.
Sending my CVA (they use Bergara barrels) back for the same reason. All kinds of ammo, 1.5-2.0 groups. Had a Tikka, loved it, sold it to buy other toys, regretting it very much. Great video!
@@mattbrewer5808 Good luck!
I have owned 2 Fierce rifles, they are 2 hrs from my home, and I won't buy another. Not what they claim. Great marketing but unfortunately poor quality. You can contact a good gun smith and have one built for less that shoots true .5" moa with HL's. Companies like Christensens and Fierce make the consumer believe they are getting a high end rifle at a deal, when in reality they are not.
If you haven’t sold that gun yet. Get a tuner break. I have a 700 in 300 win mag I switched everything on it and tried 10 different factory loads. Found out the barrel can have bad harmonics. To test this I got a sims rubber tuner and that helped a lot. I came across Erik cortonas video series on the needmoors and he just put his tuner break on it and it solved a lot of the issues you have. I put one on that rifle and I went from 3 inch groups to under an inch. Saw the rifle is threaded so try that
A tuner won't fix a fooked barrel...Tuners work, but they don’t perform magic 😄
I had a fierce about 5 years ago, in 30-378 Weatherby. It would not shoot consistently. They played the same game with me, so I took it to a gunsmith, to rebarrel it. He refused and told me the action was junk and that it had a bad design in the way of action lug or lack there of. So I sold it and lost money on it. Don't know if they changed the design on the recoil lug, but your sound like it was doing the same thing my was. I will never buy another rifle from them again.
Hey, if you're considering keeping the rifle n persisting with improving accuracy consistency then try a barrel tuner... EC Barrel Tuner... Eric Cortiner from Cortiner PERCISION has his own Chanel...worth checking out.
I have a Fierce and it's a rival but it is in a carbon barrel and it does the same thing you cannot get it to shoot does it no matter what ammo you shoot through it first rival 300 prc is junk
Dang! I'm sorry to hear that. I've seen some reviews of your exact rifle online saying that is great. Maybe you and I just have a lemon?! Sucks either way.
i almost ordered one
Ive heard a few stories similar to yours here in Australia
Some guys have also moved them on as they wont shoot.
Better building a true custom rifle for not much more. in my opinion for sure.
I was going to try Fierce in the 300 PRC and my friends talked me out of it. I went with a Browning Hells Canyon that shoots lights out. Later I went into a Cabelas and looked at the supply of Fierce rifles they had for sale. Each rifle had different blemishes in the stock. One had a 1/2 inch crack near the tip. Plus they look hand made! And when I say hand made I mean the craftsmanship is impeccably poor at best!
You did not investigate the mechanical issues other than the scope ? Barrel should be verified for torque - remove and retorque barrel and action to stock..bedding ? Myself I would have returned it…
My fierce rifle shoots exactly the same..like garbage!! getting rid of it and getting a custom built rifle that is worth a damn.. fierce, makes trash rifles, nowadays
How is the bedding job or lack of on yours? My Carbon Rogue 300PRC shoots great thanks to Short Action Customs expertise because Fierce couldn’t make it right 😂
I have a couple fierce, and edge ti from when they first started that model and a ct rival.
The edge is one of the most accurate rifles I have had, but the finishing work was crap. The rival is also temp sensitive, but not nearly as bad as in the video.
I heard they use a mcgowen barrel, which is ok but it is def not a top tier barrel. And it’s button rifled which can def have stress issues with temp changes.
Crazy! Must be a common problem with Fierce. Dang. I hope they figure it out. But I'm not optimistic that they will - given the way they handled the issue with my rifle.
I seriously doubt they will fix anything. My rival will put the cold bore about 1” right every time. Then I can group 5-6 shots into a 1/2” group. After that it’s hot and starts to spread the group out to 1 1/2” vertically up to about 10 shots. But the shots all stay in the “warm” spot. Let it cool right off and the first shot is 1” right, touching the first cold bore. Then the next will group right in with the warm group.
@@10dannyp89 Wow! Sounds exactly like my experience. The more I hear, the more I think that Fierce has a real problem, that they're not likely to even know how to fix. It makes me sad, actually. I hope this is the impetus to getting them to fix their business but I think it's more likely to make it worse until they no longer exist. Sad.
I’ve done some research and generally Button rifled barrels tend to be more picky. Side note Styr, Ruger, Tikka and Sako use cold hammer forged barrels. They seem to be more consistent. I’d like to see you drop $600 and try the Ruger American Gen 2.
Good idea! I might try the Gen II. Looks amazing
I had no idea you spent 4k on this rifle. I'm assuming this as I have went on the website and configured it as closely as I could. Take my word. Once you get anywhere near that type of money just find a good gunsmith to build you a gun using a quality action and barrel. I will tell you NO gunsmith would stand by they cold bore shot crap. If they did they wouldn't be in business long. I have built several full customs for less than 5k apiece. It shot a .225 inch group if you don't count the first and most important shot😅
Got a safe full of sako's and all shot under one inch right out of the box no matter what ammo.
You should have a smith put a different barrel on it.
Mine shoots perfect, all good groups
I agree that you went above and beyond, certainly what I would have done. I do agree the barrels looked unusual for new. I can’t speak for their barrels or rifles but I have built many rifles with barrels from known barrel companies that are hand lapped after production and all of them turned out to shoot sub MOA or better and were nearly devoid of tool marks.
My one question is why did you not take their offer of free return shipping so they could examine the rifle before you negotiated a resolution with them? You’re going to take a big hit selling it as used, especially if the buyer scopes the bore. Leaving it sit gets you nothing. Your time money and ammo, so you choice but in my opinion you have nothing to lose.
Good question. They offered to look at the rifle again and to cover the shipping, but made it clear that I'd have to pay for all their costs if they found nothing wrong with it. They'd already inspected it before and given it a clean bill of health, so why would I expect that it that would change this time around? I'd most likely just be out yet more money.
Also, given that I had clearly demonstrated in the video that their tests didn't account for serious flaws, why would I suddenly trust their method of testing? Unless they assured me that they would adjust their tests. So, I asked them to assure me that they would address the issues I identified in the video. They declined. That made my decision clear. They were not interested in helping me, so I would not continue to place my faith in a company that to that point had failed me completely and that showed no indication of changing course.
@@huntingdad The reply was not clear they would charge you to evaluate it. I build rifles and often problems like this are easy to diagnose. I'd like to help you If I can, some questions would help. TDA Precision on the Web has my contact info since I can not put it up here.
I’m really sorry for your misfortune. You have went way beyond what you should have to do with a rifle like this. I have shot a few rifles that do this mainly brownings hells canyon and a couple light weight rifles barrel profiles. Sounds stupid but I put a $20 deresonator by limb saver on the barrel and it worked on all of them. The light barrels just seem to have to much harmonics. Good luck and I hope it helps for what you have went through.
Interesting. Never heard of a deresonator. I'll look into it. Thanks!
You have a bedding/weak stock problem. Easy fix,add some carbone/epoxy and bed after.
I bought a 3 lug carbon rage last year. First round i chambered broke the extractor. every second round bound up after I paid to have it fixed. It shot but it was a piece I flipped it as soon as I could. Re-barreled a tikka myself with a proof barrel and it makes my smile every time i pull the trigger.
ahhhhh was that you at the factory?
Yes. I drove to Redmond to pick up my rifle and they gave me a tour.
Good video, stick with Weatherby Rifles. Glad I saw this video.
This was a great and !FAIR! report of your experiences, well done. I think this is a bad move on Fierce, as they will surely loose more sales than the cost of replacing your rifle.
That's partly why I wanted to send the video to them in advance: to give them a chance to make it a happy ending and save some face. Would have gone much better for them if I'd said at the end, "and they did the right thing; they gave me a refund".
I think you're right that the negative impact of this review (and others like it) have a much worse impact than the cost of offering refunds when things go wrong.
@dougwelch7069 So fair! The junk bench with plywood on the grass was as professional as could be.