Best & Worst Wood Species for Timber Framing (Doug Fir, Cedar, Spruce, Hemlock, Pine & More)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2022
- Some people want certain grain patterns, colors and hues. Others are more concerned with getting the biggest Bang for their buck.
Others want wood with a story - such as it reclaimed timbers from an old structure - and yet others want to follow historic precedent. In other words if they want to replicate a colonial saltbox style home they choose the exact wood species commonly used by early post and beam timber framers.
For most people, staining addresses aesthetic concerns. This leaves availability, cost and performance as the primary decision drivers. Wet conditions, heavy tension loads and big spans can play an important role here..
In this informative and educational video, Bert discusses these species: Douglas Fir, Cedar, Pine, Hemlock, Spruce and a few others.
Drying, sap, twisting and stain-ability all play into the factors that make up a good or bad timber frame wood species.
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Spot on. I agree.
Im a residential contractor in Oregon. 51 years a carpenter
Everything is built with Douglas firr here.
We do use spruce for exterior trim and facia. But its kiln dried.
Port Orford ceder is hard to come by for us also.
Its very pricy but gorgeous. Its structurally adequate for outside stained open beam patios cielings and gazebos
and interior non structural open beam ceilings.
I wouldnt use it for an interior structural beam. Douglas firr is a far superior product.
But I love Port Orford cedar for exterior use. IT NEVER ROTS. It might turn grey with weather, but that gives you a patina look.
Stay productive my friends.
Port Orford is a beautiful Cedar that has even been used for Instruments. Doug Fir covers a lot of the bases well, not perfect but consistent.
Thank you for the explanation along with the illustrations about boxed heart timbers. I've read it again and again but I finally understand both the terms and the benefits/drawbacks of it
Thank you for letting us know!
Good info. I've done a bit of research into the old eastern white pine construction, and part of the reason old stuff is so prized/resilient (in many cases, still standing and looking fine 200+ years later) is for a couple of key reasons. Old growth trees are denser than new growth, even for trees of the same size. That's well understood. Another aspect is how lumber was processed/dried centuries ago vs. how it is processed and dried to today.
I read about pumpkin pine flooring, which is made by cutting and stacking eastern white pine flooring and packing it in straw for decades, re-stacking and refreshing the straw every few years. Sometimes this flooring would only be installed 50+ years after it was first cut. That insured the wood was incredibly stable in changing humidity, as pine pitch takes much longer to dry/cure/stabilize than simply kiln-drying can accomplish. That's just one example of the time between cutting and construction that led to less wood movement after construction - in a stronger lumber to begin with.
Today we have a very efficient tree-to-lumber process, which is kind of insanely hectic. It's too fast. So we're not getting the best out of lumber that's already not quite as good as the lumber used in older construction that we might compare our work to.
I had some white pine cut ~7 years ago. I rented a portable sawmill and cut it up, and then stacked it outside for a season. Then I restacked and stickered it in a humidity controlled basement for two years. I then re-stacked it again, removing the stickers. I'm now using the lumber and finding that it's remarkably stable compared to stuff you buy off the shelf. That's because it's been drying for ~6 years longer than almost anything you can find in a box store....
Something to keep in mind. You can do great things with this "lesser" wood if you have time.
That is excellent information and a testament to the proper care of timber species. Some amazing structures have been built from a multitude of species - stable drying is an advantage.
thanks so much ! I'm having a Timber Frame built on a little acre i have in the woods. such great information !
That's gonna be a wonderful place to live!
Very informative. Great video.
Years ago, Steve Thomas of This Old House," promoted a project with timber framing. He stated that the best wood for this type of construction was old growth Douglas fir from the Pacific Northwest. That was in the "This Old Money" phase of the show. It was amazing to me that many people then were very concerned about the old growth forests and their unique ecosystems disappearing in the Northwest. Now, I think that they are using second growth (or younger) trees. There are very few mills in the Pacific Northwest that can even process the big logs.
That last part of this video was so calming. I love this guy!
Thank you for posting this video ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
This has to be area-specific. It’s all well and good to list those choices when you’re based in the northwest, but they can be (and are) prohibitedly expensive when you’re 3000 miles away.
“Weak” woods like eastern white pine can make fine frames if they are sized for the loads they will carry.
Agreed with this. I think climate and availability plays heavily into these suggestions based on the creators location.
Yes we're definitely spoiled in the Northwest of the USA to be able to ship Doug Fir timbers all over the States. When possible, investing in Doug Fir makes the most sense, but some beautiful timber frames have been made out of other "less ideal" lumber.
@@timberframedesignYes I bought a sawmill, and recently had free of heart Doug fir priced. It was 12k dollars for just 24 relatively small pieces (mostly 6x10x16). I will drop my pines for "free" and use them. I just cant swing the 11k for what is so available for free here. Even if it wasn't my property, pines are basically free to those who can haul them off.
@@andersonpropertymaintenanc952totally understandable. And historically timber frames were built with what was locally available as well. As long as you understand the species and can work with it I'm sure your project will turn out great!
exactly. love how this salesman is pitching western trees that are impossible to get at a reasonable price here on the east coast. shameless
This some great information as a non full time timber framer. and as someone who lives in an area that is predominantly Hemlock country - I agree with everything he says here.
Thanks for your input!
I am in WV and have built 7 frames from Hemlock. It dries quick and very hard set without heat. Bugs hate it. It is almost free wood here. Left in woods because they won't grade it and big mills don't want to deal with waste from sawing. Clear cuts send 40" logs for pulp.
I can buy 1st and 2nd log from low bottoms ( less likely to have wind shake) at logging site for what logger is getting for pulp at paper mill 100 miles away.
Hemlock is like eating a pig.
You eat the ears, the feet the brain, just the whole pig.
I want boxed heart from big logs and the outside can be framing, siding and ext trim! Eat the pig. Awesome live edge siding with that 8x10 beam in the middle.😎
Learning every bit I can...thanks
Koreans considered "Zelkova serrata" to be the best wood for traditional timber framing, but those became extremely rare, especially tall and straight specimen.
Therefore mostly several different Pine species were used for timber frame buildings, until recently.
Now days, mostly Doug Fir imported from USA and Canada are used for building traditional timber frame in Korea.
Thanks for the input - it's nice to hear what's going on in Korea.
Eastern white Pine is actually a GREAT species for framing, been used for hundred of years in new england, not the same as pitch pine which has all that SAP...
Good distinction to make - there's certainly a lot of variance between pine species.
Also you're not gonna find any framer in New England that prefers eastern hemlock over eastern white pine. I'm also extremely skeptical about the spruce "shrinking endwise" MDF significantly shrinks along it's length, but that's the only "species" I know that does!
I’m hoping to build a shed with eastern white pine, full round logs. I cut down 20 trees clearing my lot, 80’ tall and I got a few from my neighbors lots. 14’ wide by 18’ deep, with 4’ overhang at a 7/12 pitch. Plus I’d like to have a 8-10’ open front roof . I need a quiet place to drink when I retire 😊
No, white pine is really weak. But any wood will be strong enough to use as studs. But to build a floor with 12 or 14 feet span you will need something stronger than white pine
And it’s not hard to shape
That's a pretty informative video and very resourceful for the layman out there, so - well done. I'd simply like to suggest that not all pine is created equal. Red pine would likely offer you substantially more strength in your project than white pine.
You're absolutely right, there's a lot of variance in pine species.
@@timberframedesign thoughts on Southern yellow pine? Most box store lumber is exactly that
What about Ponderosa pine
Ponderosa Pine is slightly worse than Southern Pine and it grows slower. The slow growth and death of tobacco, etc in Georgia has led to Southern Pines rise and why Ponderosa Pina/Red Fir have vanished out of the lumber yards. Real reason is also importing gargantuan amounts of lumber from Canada and California essentially closing its borders to logging, BuT: If you need a BIG timber, Ponderosa Pine, unlike Southern pine is a good option for a big beam. Assuming you cannot afford Doug Fir. Of course SOURCING said big log is another matter entirely. I would take Ponderosa Pine before Hemlock that is for sure. Hemlock EASILY rots and bugs love it. I would NEVER put Hemlock in my home given a choice. I hunt down Doug Fir ONLY lumber when buying. I demand it. Save a LOT of headaches. @@royramey5659
Interesting take. I work at a Grist mill museum that was built 150 years ago. It was all framed with Eastern Hemlock. It is right on the water, so always high humidity. Was left entirely abandoned for almost 20 years and has had many leaks. It's main frame has had no work done to it. only the stilts that support it from the river bed below. I would not discount Eastern Hemlock.
Also interesting as the Shelter Institute seems to prefer White Pine and also uses Hemlock.
Absolutely, there is a lot of value in Hemlock and White Pine. We wouldn't discount those species, although we all have preferences. There have been some amazing structures built out of Hemlock and Pine!
Big reason to use Hemlock/White pine is the wood color above all other considerations. It is white. It can be stained any color you want or left. Especially true if you do NOT want the ~yellow/orange/brown Doug Fir or other Pines turn to over time. All timber logs are NOT equal. Growth Ring distance if close together = rot proof. If BIG growth rings = rots if you look at it cross eyed. Why Pole logs(twice as valuable) MUST have rings less than 1/8" to be considered for telephone/electric pole. Same goes for your Timbers in your home regardless of species. Tighter the grain, the Better it is. Reject any log with big growth rings as the "wood" is not stable and warps as well. Also reject logs with large growth rings on one side and NOT the other. Wood will massively warp. It is almost a guarantee that log came from a LEANING tree = large internal stresses will be released when you cut into it. STAY AWAY!
Hemlock? You mean Hemrock??
In Australia there are some prime timber trees. The "Silver Ash", which goes grey but has a metallic sheen to die for. Tasmanian "Huon Pine" that resists insects and never rots. Native Jarrah and Cedar are beautiful.
That is great to hear. Sounds like in Australia there are some unique options to utilize!
Interesting! ✨
I have a 36 foot long beam 4X10 that the roof for this wing of my house sits upon and it rotted. I ended up getting cedar but that was at the height of pandemic and a 4X10 16 feet long each were $1,200 at Home Depot. I called a mill out in Mendocino County which had redwood and those beams were $55 per linear foot delivered. Just a few bucks under $2,000 and I would have bought it but the delivery time was too long. No question in my mind that it is by far the superior choice though, especially since the beams in question are outside and exposed to the air. Meaning dinner for termite swarms. I have never seen redwood that got damaged by termites, it is like they cannot eat it. But then I am from far northern coastal California only a few miles from Oregon, redwood used to be cheap till they took every stick of old growth that was not protected in parks. Port Orford cedar also is high on my list of woods for timers. I have been to Port Orford, I call it Moose Snout for the movie Overboard, it really looks like that. I would die of boredom in a month.
Mr. Timber Frame, thank you for your in-depth analysis. I am building my last to-die-in home on a cool piece of property I've just purchased. I cannot justify the significant cost increase for a timber frame though I reasoned every which way under the sun, but just couldn't pull the trigger. So I am a stick building , 26 x 26 foot (interior) modified cape with structural timber f. 2nd floor, floor joist 24" OC. The main carrying beam is offset to where I need (roughly) 15 and 13 footers. As you stated, northeast US is white pine country. What should the dimensions be for these floor joists? I can't find any charts telling me what a 7"x9" or a 6"x10" white pine beam will span? If you have the time to answer I'll thank you in advance.
Ty great vdo
I met this guy in person. I used to be trucker & stopped off at his shop.
I have Sassafras and Black Walnut and red oaks, and white and swamp white oak. Red Maples, and Cherry. I’m building livestock structures with no foundation. Will the Sass, Walnut, and Oak be ok for the posts? I have a precious few harvestable Junipers, should I use these for the main posts over oaks?
Not me with 2 acres of perfectly straight, 40-50' Norway Spruce trees (failed Christmas tree farm from two decades ago), hoping I could use in a timber frame project... 🤣
Anyone have experince working with Brich for timber framing? What did you think? Thanks!
Hello. I have an old Christmas tree farm with mostly "Abies" species here in Oregon. I have Doug Fir too however they are not mature enough for timber harvest, nor would it be environmentally sound at the current state. Most Abies species are 1' - 2' in diameter at the base. I am doing restoration work on my property so there is a lot of thinning of Abies spices. I was wondering what might be the best recommended use for Grand Fir, Concolor, and a few Noble Firs?
It's a helluva thing...I'd seen this video several months ago, forgot all about it, then on a trip to Olympic National Park I saw your building and didn't know why I'd recognized it until I just watched the video again. Thanks for the free advice. Since I live in an area with a seemingly endless supply of western juniper, I was wondering about the characteristics. Perhaps you've worked with it before?
We've heard good things about Juniper as far as its strength, its a hardy wood. The downside is the size of trees aren't as substantial, so you may be forced to use boxed heart to get any decent size beams.
Eastern White Pine is second to Douglas Fir in timber framing. Not sure how this was missed. EWP has been used for hundreds of years for timber framing, log cabins, and ship masts.
Is chestnut good for timber framing? its what im planning to use as I have a good amount of it growing.
A decade or two back they planted Doug Fir heavily in the South island of New Zealand. There's now loads of it and as cheap as pine. I want to build a Post and Beam house down here but its not been done since the earlier 1900s, went out of fad. So much so its been a real chore to find building standards for a Post and Beam style. My fav Tudor and 17th century styles, English, French and German with exposed post and beam. A builder Fearnley construction recently did a big truss with peg mortise.
""Considering the unique nature of these trusses, test joints were submitted for extensive testing in Canterbury University to ensure they met New Zealand standards. Far exceeding all expectations, the results of this type of construction proved how durable and widely used this traditional building technique can be. The design, testing, construction, and drying of these trusses spanned a 12-month time frame."" Gives you an idea of how little its used down here.
Thank you for commenting this - that is very interesting to hear that they are thriving there. New Zealand has an interesting climate, if its widely available you may do well to popularize it there!
@@timberframedesign Sadly the vast building code doesn't have any rules and regulations concerning Post and Beam. Its only just been recent that a building company in the south Island and Massy uni worked together to erect a modern building with a large King Frame, up the front of the building, which was the only bit on the building using Post n beam. At least it was structural and not decorative i suppose. So there's no way to build one legally right now in NZ. At least there's interest now but it direction lies in structural advantages vrs earthquakes, which are on going here.
What about Alaskan birch? Thinking about using it. It’s pretty knotty
Good info,thanks. How about mixing species? I have mostly cedar but some Doug fir and oak. I also have white fir.
It can be done but you'll need to take into account the different strength aspects of each, and engineer accordingly. Also, you'll have a different look/grain to each, and stain will not necessarily match depending on which wood its applied to. But it can certainly be done.
What's your opinion on black locust for framing?
Have you every used Japanese Cedar (Sugi, or Hinoki) from Japan? Timbers, Beam and dimensional items. Curious how they would fit into your species analysis. Thanks for the excellent video.
We've never used the Japanese Cedars as we source all of our timbers from the Northwest of the USA primarily. It sounds like is dries quickly and has high rigidity so it could possibly be a good option, but having not used it - we can't recommend in good faith, but I'd bet it's a solid option.
What about eastern aromatic cedar for smaller lengths and thicknesses?
In the deep south of the USA is a wood with density, strength and hardness of oak. By the way there is a significant difference between white and red oak. Tons of oak in the Carolinas on which you could comment as to water ingress. But, back to that super strength wood upon which I opened this comment... yellow pine folks. Not white pine or loblolly but yellow. Please take a moment and comment, for I have seen some masterful and ancient structures still standing and am a user myself. I kindly await your reply.
Exactly southern yellow pine is a very strong timber, yes it can have sap and warp in direct sunlight but in many ways better than oak ...likewise all the old cotton mills with all that heavy machinery for many floors was southern yellow pine timbers....I have to disagree with this guy about Douglas fir...to me it's crap, splinters out too easily...might be ok for hand sawing, drill and chiesling...but I wouldn't build a dog house from it
@@historygradstu Yep. Especially junk.... Douglas fir for any framing that carries a decent load, to me is a no-no. It is crap and only permissible if pressure infused with epoxy resin. However I do use Douglas fir in high count multi ply plywood that is AA marine grade because the resorcinol glue is compressed in the multiple cross biased layers. Boats are my thing and only white oak, good mahogany, yellow pine and some slightly lesser southern (Atlantic coast) pines are on the bill of materials.
How does River Birch work for framing?
I was a bit surprised to hear your take on spruce. The longitudinal shrinkage is actually less on spruce than on oak for example. At least here in Sweden. Regardless of that, the shrinkage is so insignificant (0,3 %) that it shouldnt be a problem. Do you have any data to refer to? It would be interesting to see. Thanks for a good video nonetheless!
This was a great video thank you very much. I was wondering why you didn't mention Larch? We have a plantation of Larch we are using for all our frames and so far so good what's your thoughts as it's super durable
I believe Doug Fir and Larch are the same
@@GingerJohnnyOR no very differant
Larch and Doug Fir share similar structural characteristics. Both are excellent choices!
Tamarack (larch) is stronger than Douglas fir. I live in Eastern Washington and larch only grows east of the cascade mountains. If you look at a western span chart larch is stronger. Oak is not nearly as good because it's own weight is its downfall. Western larch grows in drier climate. The growth rings are sometimes 1/32 inch apart. Larch takes a long time to grow. The trees are super symmetrical and they grow tall. When people out west go for firewood larch is the number one choice. White oak or black locust are the number one choice for pegs in timber framing. I'm getting ready to build a large timber frame pavilion in the spring and we cut Douglas fir because that's what was available.
@@johnstack4316 excellent information and input. Thanks for sharing about Larch.
This video is a perfect example of why you shouldn't believe everything you hear on the internet! There have been far more timber frames built of white pine, red spruce, or eastern hemlock than will ever be built of Doug fir. Sure, Doug fir is very strong in bending and available in large sizes and free of heart, but its tension perpendicular to the grain is low, about that of white pine. Which, combined with its difficulty to work, means it isn't great for joinery, and joinery is the hallmark of any good timber frame.
Jack, it's great to hear from you! Our founder is a big fan of your work, and really appreciates your contribution to the rebirth of timber framing.
You're absolutely right that more timber frames have been built out of other species, but do you think that is because of choice or wood availability? In our neck of the woods, we have access to some of the finest lumber available in the country. Many timber frame companies are sourcing Douglas Fir these days and it grows in popularity.
Douglas Fir isn't absolutely perfect in every regard, but once you start building with it, it's a bit addictive. In regards to joinery, with sharp tools and talented craftsman, we've been able to create gorgeous housed, traditional joinery that should appeal to a craftsman such as yourself.
If you have a moment to peruse our project gallery, you'll see 90% done in Doug Fir, with some others in Cedar, Pine etc. You'll find we are heavily invested in traditional joinery, and do not make shortcuts in our craft. arrowtimber.com/see-our-work/
Always good to hear from you Jack! Your input is appreciated.
Help me out everyone. I live in Colorado, what makes the most sense to use for my area. Front range North of Denver area.
I’m planning to build a covered patio which will be anchored to an existing structure; a gable end of my home. The spans will be as much as 25’ -27’ for the ledger and ridge beam and 23’ wide for the trusses. It will be open air like a pavilion and built in the northwest Wisconsin climate. I would like to minimize posts to the outermost corners and have one gable king and two interior common trusses. Considering that I want to stain it fairly dark, have a minimalist look, keep cost low, and meet engineering requirements for such a structure, which species will be my best option and what sized would I need to order?
We have some information about timber engineering on our website, and our designers/GM would better answer those questions, but we've utilized Doug Fir primarily when larger spans are needed, and would recommend that over Cedar as far as strength. Doug Fir can be stained pretty dark as well, and for Wisconsin I would recommend you go with a stain like TimberPRO UV which is ideal for wetter climates. Not sure what kind of snow loads you have there and would definitely recommend getting an engineer who is familiar with timber framing to assist your design work.
Opening with a blanket statement that pine is bad for timber framing seems off the mark. As far as I am concerned eastern white pine is gods gift to timber framers. (I think Jack Sobon said that to me, I shouldn't take credit for the statement). Strength to weight ratio, shrinkage characteristics and workability is great. I have experienced at least as many issues with sap using Redwood as EWP. You just have to get good timbers from a good sawyer. Hemlock is pretty good too. It does twist some but good joinery decisions can account for that. The expense of the woods that you suggest here are prohibitive if you are working in the northeast. EWP and Hemlock are absolutely the way to go here. As an asside, earlier in the comments someone mentioned red pine as a possible useful wood for timber framing and I would make an argument against that. I was involved in a project using red pine in which we had to drastically adjust the housings meant to receive tenoned ends of timbers because they had twisted so much in just days after we cut the joinery. It came out fine but was a pain in the ass to cut funky angled housings and mortises.
I worked for a timber frame builder here in PA. We used only white oak (never red), Southern Yellow Pine or Douglas Fir. Occasionally cedar for a special order.
But the family wants to build a small cabin, and the abundance of hemlock in the area will probably force us to go in that direction. Tulip poplar was good enough for the barn that my father built, so I'm not concerned with hemlock.
I'm sure you'll have an excellent build! We have our preferences but there are beautiful timber frame homes built out of woods that we don't use as often. We're blessed in the Northwest to have bountiful Doug Fir and Cedar.
I’m considering using hemlock for a small timber frame project . Shed roof BBQ structure maybe 12x14
Is it easy to work with as long as tools are sharp ?
I’m a big fan of white oak for its structural properties and rugged good looks but honestly thought 💭 what about laminated versions?!?! Pros and cons to laminate oak beams?!?! Thanks in advance
Glu Lams are excellent for large spans and sizes. Even if its not a true sawn timber, they can look beautiful and are very strong. Although we don't typically use them, they are an excellent option. As far as Oak specifically, I'm not sure if its used often as a GluLam option.
Ha! In my entire state there are only the trees you've listed as bad for building! I'm sure logs are trucked into colorado because all we have are firs, spruces, pines, and cottonwoods. I've always wanted to mill my own logs though
Unfortunately, certain areas are more blessed with timber options than others! Douglas fir is shipped all over the world and it's worth doing if you can!
I'm curious to know your thoughts on Western Larch. It seems to be a real straight grained wood with minimal knots. Have you ever used it and would you recommend it!
Hey Shawn, western larch or tamarack is awsome for timberframes. If you look at a western span chart it's the strongest of the soft woods. It will span farther than Douglas fir or (red fir) as we call it where I live in N.E. Washington state. Trees are super straight and and the growth rings are tiny. I started timber framing 3 years ago and Douglas fir and tamarack are readily available here and tamarack or (larch) are preferred over hemlock or cedar. This guy is probably from the east coast and is not familiar with western larch. I think they have a larch tree back there but it's not like our western larch.
@@johnstack4316 Yeah I'm in North west Montana. SO its readily available here to. I plan on using it in my home in the next year or so.
@@Montanagrizzly@johnstack4316 had an excellent response. Although we don't use it ourselves, it seems like a solid choice for Timber Framing and well worth checking out.
I have some land where the previous owner logged some Doug Fir trees. I think the logs have been sitting for about a year. Wondering if I should mill them into beams or something else?
If you are using them for your own project that would be a cool feature to have beams made out of local trees. Otherwise you could see if a sawmill is interested in them.
I've always dreamed of a timber framed house but I'm not sure it'd be possible to get logs big enough for heart free wood where I live. ( island of Newfoundland in eastern Canada) I'd only do it if I could harvest locally myself.
Excluding the woods you said were no good. My options are balsam fir, trembling aspen, tamarack, maybe red maple, paper or mountain birch. Maybe golden birch if i could find enough.
Any thoughts?
Boxed heart can work if you aren't building right away, first cutting bigger than the beam size you are going to be using. After it air-dries, you can resaw to remove exterior twisting. In regards to those species, you will want to find tables regarding the engineered strength, especially perpindicular to grain strength, then you can make decisions based on what spans and sizes you'll be needing for your home.
@@timberframedesign thanks so much for replying, insight is a tremendous help. So happy to hear it is possible here! I have a masonry background but getting into harvesting my own wood more and more. I love it.
It's interesting to see the difference and similarities between cultures.
Any thoughts on Ash? It grows big and straight for sure. How is it for strength, shrinkage and such?
"Ash is not very rot-resistant which is a big con for outdoor timbers. But it is similar to Fir in shrinkage and strength, although I'm not entirely sure how they'd behave, either being relatively obedient or doing all sorts of crazy twisting." - Bert
Don’t use such a gorgeous wood outside. Make your stairs or kitchen with it
black locust is great!
Is Douglas fir the same as Western/rustic fir?
were i live there is lots of poplar on my land i have done research that says poplar is good to build with do you think the same because im in the process of buying building my family a home and for me cost affective is what im after i live southern WV i have really good access to my trees thanks for your time and plan on watching way more of your channel
Poplar is used a lot and can be decent, it's pretty prone to decay though which is not ideal for exterior exposed beams.
I'm in Fayette and Raleigh County area.
I have used Poplar for a few frames.
It shrinks quite a bit but will get very hard when dry. Not good exposed to weather. I box the heart for timbers and keep joinery tight (4' rafters and 4-6 on purlins) . More joinery and care to cover shrinkage, but I am a BIG fan of "Use What You Got!"
Poplar can work for timber frame and it work for framing and great for trim.
Good luck👍
@@gregkump3639 excellent input.
Thanks for sharing your experience, but aside from oak and douglas-fir, I couldn't agree with most of your conclusions.
Thank you for watching! It is certainly just an opinion based on Northwest based wood supply. There are beautiful timber frames built out of other species that we don't tend to use.
Is it true that black oak is worth alot?
What about other kinds of fir? We have a lot of noble fir as our land was previously planted for tree boughs. I know it's not a durable wood good for outdoor use, but have you ever used it in a timber frame?
We've never used it for timber framing.
@@timberframedesign Why not, and would you ever consider it? If not, why? I don't mean to sound contrary. I want to learn! Thank you.
@@carolewarner101 the durability is a major concern, and insects can wreak havoc on it. For timber frame, it's best to consider longevity.
Can you use a little mixture of different trees for framing?
Great question! It is ok to mix wood species but you must pay careful attention to tension loading differences between species.
Can ypu comment on the use of Poplar or send a link to a resource?
I've used poplar for frames. I suggest lots of joinery. It will shrink and twist. Rafters spaced close (4') with purlins (4-6') to lock them using joinery that will hide radial shrinkage.
I have a hemlock front porch 20 years now and I have hated it that long to. long story I want to start over everything on this land.
Thanks for mentioning - its not our preferred wood either.
I wonder if cypress would work
What about Pavlownia?
No mention of larch
I don't like hemlock. A company I was working for was using it to replace sills in an old house and there was so much ring shake in the hemlock we used, I wondered how they even passed it off as structurally sound lumber!
It's definitely got its downsides!
Yeah man, ring shake is a problem in most hemlock I see. really ugly.
Can you use ash
If the timber goes through a kiln will that reduce the shrinkage factor much?
Standard kiln drying removes free water, making the timbers lighter. In order to remove cell water resulting in wood shrinkage, you need lots of time or Radio Frequency Kiln Drying. Even small wood such as a 2x6 will shrink substantially after standard kiln drying.
What about cypress?
whats your thoughts on sugar maple or black cherry?
Cherry and Walnut are very strong but they have integrity issues, like Poplar. Which is why they're usually relegated to small woodworking projects.
I find it interesting that many of the comments say that poplar is a bad choice and will rot, which is only partially true. There are many examples that prove it can last for century's outdoors. It is a misconception to state that it simply will not. Wood rots from bad building practices that allow it to repeatedly get wet, not allowing it to dry, and from using immature trees.... Poplar was the most used wood for construction in the US until the early 20th century for a reason. It was plentiful, and with older trees the wood is rot and insect resistant. They knew to not use the core of the tree, or small trees, which are primarily white sap wood that will rot in a matter of years. Large trees are almost entirely well established sapwood, which wont rot.... You are not going to find that poplar at Home Depot... You will have to buy land with poplars on it, then harvest them when the trees are mature. Most poplars are harvested at less than 20 years, and that will rot... Let it grow to maturity (34-72 inch diameter, 40 to 50 years minimum), and it will not rot for century's.
I was just reading Jack Sobon and Roger Schroeder, and they say the red eastern spruce is a good choice for timber framing. But here it's your first worst species.
Can you help me understand the difference of opinion here?
I live in the north east BTW, and they seem to refer to this region most in the book.
Full quote from the book:
"Eastern spruce includes red, black, and white spruce, but red is the most common, and it is probably the best for timbers. Like hemlock, it is strong but very lightweight, even when freshly cut. It absorbs shock well, but the knots can chip the steel off hand tools. It is much harder to work than pine, but it isn’t as sappy. It is a good choice for timber frames because of its straightness, small knots, light weight, strength, and resistance to splitting."
@@gregorynuttall with Spruce, people in other areas recommend it, but they're not going to recommend it over Doug Fir, they'll recommend it because its available in their area, but it's not as structurally sound as Doug Fir. You can certainly use it, if that's what you've got available, but it's just not as ideal of a wood. If Doug Fir cost much more to use, we'd probably use a local wood as well. Lots of excellent timber frames have been built out of Spruce, but the shrinkage of end-to-end makes it difficult to work with when green/fresh sawn.
@@timberframedesign I see. Thank you for helping me close the gap in knowledge there.
@@gregorynuttall glad to see you diggin into Sobon and other authors like him. We're lucky to be from the Pacific Northwest where we can get large, quality Doug Fir logs, and like I said, if we were surrounded by Spruce we'd probably build more with it.
Which wood do you suggest using in Texas or southeast?
Rot isn't a problem down there so a lot of timber species will work, but it's really hard to beat doug fir if you can get it.
I've used hemlock in WV for frames 30 years. My biggest concern is 1st or 2nd log and where it grew. I want trees from hollows and lower land blocked from wind. Wind shake is a problem on high ground. With hemlock I want boxed heart. Big logs and boxed heart. Hemlock sets pitch quickly at ambient Temps. Stable and very hard in 3-6 months. So nasty hard, bugs don't like it. Our local boring bees don't even like it after 6 months. They will eat up Doug fir.
Hemlock splinters are "painful", and wood is 'twisty'.
@@technobubba4 You are right about those splinters, right up there with pressure treated!
hemlock is known for getting significantly harder as it dries, moreso than perhaps any other wood.
Well... unfortunately, Pine is all we've got down here in Dump Hole New Orleans. I've been using it over 30 years. I hate it, but it seems to do the job. Tell 'em to ship some good lumber to "Toilet Bowl Orleans." Thanks
Southern yellow pine is stronger than doug fir. You'll be fine
@Timber Frame Design & Build Channel Quick Quesiton! :) My father owns a guitar factory and we have so many leftover 4"x4"x90" Mahogany Billets. Could you/should/would you ever frame with those? Especially because I can get them dirt cheap? Thank you so much :)
Hell yea! Be awesome corner braces in a mixed species frame.
@@gregkump3639 hey that’s a great idea! Freak yeah man. That’s a fantastic idea my friend. 🤙🏼
Where are you And do you want to part with any dirt cheap Mahogany 4x4s????
@@gregkump3639 I am in Southern California and we currently don’t have any, all cut up for guitar necks. But want me to hit you up in about 6 months after our next shipment? :)
@@jamesryan2227 Well you are on the other side of the country. Not feeling the carbon footprint of shipping. I'm in WV, a plentiful hardwood rainforest. I try my best to convince clients to stay local.😉 but mahogany is great to work with in a specialty purpose. 👍
What about Ash?
What ever trees Home Depot gets it’s lumber from must be shaped like curly fries.
Haha!!! You're onto something there...
How is cypress
Would Yellow Pine be a suitable wood?
Yes
Is it safe to assume that any trees he did not cover cannot be used in timber framing? Trees such as Tulip poplar, Empress trees or Black gum.
It's safe to assume they can all be used! This guy is very much aiming what he says at the west coast and at big money frames. For millennia people have cleared land and used the trees to build their houses, you can too. Tulip poplar should be pretty good, I'd think, but I would talk to a local timberframer or Sawyer. Any dense hardwood can be very good but it's a challenge to work with. (Ash, oak, elm, etc).
Ooh now I see you mentioned empress tree, I'd check with someone about that one before framing with it, it's extremely light and soft. The wood is known in the US as Paulownia and it's lighter than almost anything else in common useage as lumber
Gunna have to disagree with you on pine. I understand you're lumping all pines together probably for times sake (and im pretty sure you're on the west coast and likely referring to your own species of pine) but eastern white pine specifically is a very good timber for timber framing and log building. Most of our timber frame and log builds up here in Central and Eastern Canada are eastern white pine. Would one use red pine? Absolutely not, but eastern white pine isn't comparable to other species.
Red pine is stronger than white. Why not use red pine?
What about ash?
Hemlock is terrible , I've found that the grain is very twisting , I don't even like using it for my 1x siding .
How about tulip Poplar?
This guy gets it
Poplar's main cons are they it twists a lot and some areas do not allow it for framing. It does have some good characteristics, but is not the ideal timber framing wood. The market certainly leans toward Cedar/Doug Fir due to overall suitability to the craft.
@@timberframedesign Is it due to the structural issues or checking and twisting? We have a large stand of straight stems, the branches are brittle and shear easily…wondering if that also applies to the main stem growth, but since it is considered a hardwood, wasn’t sure whether I can use this for a timber frame or just a bad idea..?
Doug Fir ++++
What about poplar?
I built a 20x26 2 floor timber frame barn out of all Indiana poplar and it is great. It’s a soft-hardwood, it will check but is strong. I recommend putting the frame together quickly after cutting green poplar.
Southern yellow pine is stronger than doug fir. I'm very much confused by your research.
He straight up just listed off all the main New England timber frame species as ones to stay away from. I’m confused as well.
Use what’s local.
17 year old timber frame home here in Maine. Hemlock is TOTALLY strong enough structurally. Don't know why he would be iffy about it. Oh, maybe because he's from VANCOUVER.
Good info but please look at the camera when presenting. Why has this trend continued when it was just a fashionable annoyance in the beginning? Otherwise a good video
Have you ever used yellow poplar, aka tulip poplar?
Great wood
Im confused, because other reputable builders say white pine is one of the better woods.
There are some beautiful homes utilizing White Pine, we tend to go with very large beams free-of-heart so Douglas Fir generally provides the best options for us in that regard.
you are out west right let me tell you long strait oak logs are not hard to find or get you just need to order them from phio and naboring states it is common to see oak trees 40 plus feet tall and strait you look plenty big enuff for tember framing avoid read oak species ues white oak instead. try locast trees it is harder to work with but it is rot restint. you want treas grade f`1 standing tember. most building supply place get c grade lumber.
Why did they use spruce for airplanes then? Even when we were sawing in the 50s and 60s if we got nice knot-free street spruce we sold it at a premium as aircraft spruce!
Kiln dried it’s fine, but in green timber applications it’s like the man said soft and squirrely
It has the best strength to weight ratio of any wood, and takes repeated bending well.
The best oak forest in the world is Tronçais (France). High; strait and clean fibre. It has been planted by Colbert (prime minister of king Louis XIV) for the french navy. It's used today for the barels of Bordeaux.
That would be fun to use!
lol... stay away from spruce and pine?!
He must never worked with either
The exception is Yellow Pine, which is a strong stable wood.
Pine certainly has nice looking big logs.
I started with Woodglut plans.
So as far as conifers go you like west coast species and hate east coast species. I also beleve that you're comparing white pine and not southern yellow pine which most engineering charts show to be stronger then douglas fir
Southern yellow pine has about as much structural strength as oak
Wrongo! White pine is an excellent choice doesn't move much, easy to work and stronger than cedar. White pine is one of the preferred woods for timber construction in the east.
Very well could be, just wouldn't do as well in the Northwest due to rot. We know of a project we were asked to rebuild that was originally built in pine and it rotted majorly, we couldn't take the job. In the right conditions though, it could be a good choice.
muhhahah
Don't like this new way of filming - where the speaker is not looking at the camera!!
It's pretty common for documentary style filming but we will keep your feedback in mind - thank you!
@@timberframedesign
Yes it's common. But it's just not natural. You're addressing the viewer surely not the cameraman?? It's like talking face to face with someone and they're looking over your shoulder.
Best regards 👍
The list of issues with this video is too numerous to effectively list...Suffice it to say history within the craft DOES NOT support much of what is shared here but the producer did state it was only "their opinion" I can share after 50 years of practice and global travel studying the empirical and historical "folk styles" of this craft, as well as designing, constructing and historic restoration within the craft that much of this video is either untrue or inaccurate at best...and that is not an "opinion" but observed over decades and millennia within the current architecture of the world globally within timber architecture...
This is largely due to the nature of our timber framing niche, which requires some of the largest beams in the industry built free-of-heart, and the abundance of Doug Fir, the dependability of the logs and accessibility of them in the Northwest makes it very attractive. But with that said - folk craftsmanship and timber framing pioneers have done amazing things with a multitude of species.